Scaling a B2B SaaS Company - Josh Fraser @ Estated
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Summary
In this episode, I sit down with the founder of Estated, a company that collects property records from public records and turns them into a valuable resource for real estate investors. We talk about how Estated came to be, how it got started, and what it s like to work with a company like Estated.
Transcript
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When I was 18, there was a guy in my town driving a Lamborghini and like lives in like the rich
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neighborhood of the thing. And so I've kind of had it set in my mind. I'm like, I'm not going
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to university. I'm going to follow him around until I get a job. Like trying to be not too
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creepy, but probably a little creepy. But yeah, 100%.
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Josh what's up man? Not much excited to be here. I'm excited for this conversation. Founder of
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Estated, serial entrepreneur, real estate investor, incredibly fast runner. I've had the privilege of
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I'd say it's the other way around, but thank you.
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But let's talk about this entrepreneurial journey,
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Yeah, so we've been collecting property record data
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from like public record sources which is a pretty ugly boring job for about seven years now and so
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i became fascinated with real estate probably when i was like 23. i kind of had a look 23 now dude
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thank you i appreciate that um but it was i had a uh a family friend who i noticed had just
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generated a lot of wealth in real estate owned properties all over the world that is actually
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how i ended up in colonna i stayed in an apartment of his that he just let me stay in at the college
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when i first came here and so i was fascinated with real estate pretty early into my entrepreneurial
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journey and previous to that i had been running a bunch of digital advertising for carfax and so
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i kind of understood the carfax model i thought it would apply to real estate and it did so were
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you an affiliate for carfax yeah exactly oh cool and then that's how you got the demand gen marketing
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know-how and then wanting to do it for real estate and my love is like google adwords and
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analytics that's where i spend most my time especially when i was first getting into this
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that was like my passion i still love it today and yeah it's been seven year journey now and
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it started kind of b2c where we just did these single carfaxes for homes but as that grew over
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the first few years and we got like thousands of subscribers using it was that called estated back
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then no it's called data nerds data nerds yes and that was carfax for homes yep is that what you
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because i also went into tech stars is that what you went to tech stars with or that was a stated
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so tech stars when we gave them equity took uh equity in both ideas um and that was generating
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quite a bit of revenue at that time so i got a really good deal with tech stars um but yeah they
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have equity in both businesses so it's kind of the consumer side and our b2b side but we pitched
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the b2b side for it because our data expenses were so much at that time from like these huge
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players like first american black knight core logic and so we pitched to them we think we could
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go collect this information and do it ourselves we don't have to spend hundreds of thousands of
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dollars every year which each with each provider and so that was kind of how the stated idea came
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to be and it's been a grind for three years this has not been a walk in the park how does the data
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collection work i mean do you have to build relationships with all these different counties
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exactly are you north america it's like we're only in the u.s right now okay public record data in
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canada is a lot stricter than it is in the u.s there's a lot more freedom there's a freedom of
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information act in the u.s where we can actually send that to a county or city office and they have
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to give us all the information on the properties what format are they giving it to you in
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and we do have a lot of OCR in the outsourcing,
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Dude, but I mean, hard problems mean opportunity and emote.
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What have you learned about building this company over the last,
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you know, especially on the stated side, the B2B side, you know,
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what have you, you know, even managing a tech team,
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because if you're a marketer, I mean, the whole building products,
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this whole other world, how have you learned that?
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Well, going B2B is a totally different conversation from B2C.
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One of the things that I constantly just kind of tell our salespeople too
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is like our average sales cycle is 75 days on the B2B side.
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the B2C is 90 seconds and it's a, you know, $200 lifetime value of a user. We pay a certain CPA
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and you can just rinse and repeat over and over and over again. You don't really have to be too
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creative with it. With the B2B and the tech side, you actually have to teach people to integrate
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APIs. You have to teach them how to navigate big bulk data sets. It's pretty ugly and boring,
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but that's where the opportunity is. And I think over the last year, we finally started to see it
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pan out. The first two years of estate was really rocky. That's right after we got venture capital
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from Foundry. And we pretty much went all in on collecting and cleansing the data. We had no idea
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what we were doing. And I hired like 20 engineers to work on it. Burn rate went way up. And when we
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went to market, it completely failed. So there's a lot of stories within that. Yeah. Talk about
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those. I mean, what were the assumptions versus the realities? Well, the assumption was that
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there's 3,144 counties in the United States. There's probably one or two sources in each of
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them that record public record data that we would have to get to. And if we built the tooling to,
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you know, have those relationships, the data would just come in. However often they updated it,
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we would be able to standardize it and build the, you know, basically machine learning to pull in
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those data sets, get them all cleaned up and then import them into our own. There's a lot of guessing
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in that. There's a lot of issues with that. And so our first attempt at it, we spent about two
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and a half million dollars and we got about 70 million properties. There's about 150 million
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properties in the United States. And so we did okay, but the problem was, is we kind of burned
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through all of our cash. So. And is it one of those things where incomplete data sets aren't
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valuable or, cause then all of a sudden, you know, if somebody wants data on a thing, they're
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I always joke about data companies just in general.
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but it's actually like the small actionable data
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It's not about giving someone all 150 million properties.
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when the pool was installed and when it needs maintenance
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to create value for the businesses we work with.
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As we get more specific and we learn more about our users,
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So whether that's in Excel files or it's in an API,
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after spending $2.5 million and hiring 20 engineers?
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I vividly remember this like March 10th of 2019.
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Arguably 2019 was the worst year for the business.
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2020 came as a breeze though, which was kind of nice.
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Yeah, because a lot of people had a rough 2020.
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If you could walk us through that, how did it feel?
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Well, so it would have been January 2018, we got the 3 million from Foundry. You're
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kind of a hotshot when you come back to Kelowna from Techstars with a few million dollars from
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a tier one venture capital firm. So I was a little bit enamored in that, you know, lots
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of talking to people, not really focusing on my business as much. We were scaling. We
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knew what we needed to do. We weren't sure we could do it. I think the measurements and
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KPIs that we had were a little out to lunch. And after about, I'd say, yeah, it was a year and a
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bit, a year and a quarter in March, we went to sell the entire data set to Remax and Compass.
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Both deals fell through. And that day, the lead on that project, who had about 10 staff, I ended up
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firing. No, we had to fire his entire team and he quit. And that was a really rough day. As a leader,
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it was a really rough day because there's a lot of instability for the next six months. So we were
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32 people, I think. So within one day, we went down to 19. After letting all those people go,
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which was really, really tough. First time entrepreneur, first time running a business,
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all this is new to me. After coming off the high of being, you know, feeling like you had the
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special touch. Exactly. And the business before the like Carfax for Homes had always performed
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really well for the first three years. Like running that business was a breeze for me.
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I never had to hire really technical people. It was more like customer support and staff.
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So now I had a bunch of really smart technical people, had to let them go after working with
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them for a year and a bit. And it hurt the confidence. It hurt a lot of the leadership
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qualities. I think I've grown a lot from it. We had an employee who's moving on and let me know
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last week. And I asked for feedback just on like, what did you think about me as a leader of this
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company? And his feedback was so dramatically different than the feedback that I had gotten
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Well, you asked about a few books that really helped me.
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There's probably two that I think stand out the most for me.
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I think I've really learned to manage my time better.
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And so having to redevelop trust in a environment where you've broken it all is a really challenging
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And so I kind of looked at it as my favorite analogy was, you know, trust is like a glass
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You know, you, you add little drops to it and it's full.
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It takes forever to fill up, but it takes five seconds to knock it over.
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I think there's a Warren Buffett quote about that too.
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It takes a lifetime to build a reputation and an instant to ruin it.
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And so, you know, it's been a couple of years now, and I feel like I've completely changed.
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And the feedback that came from this employee was really, really good.
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Really happy with the company culture, really happy with my participation.
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And I felt like a lot of those practices that I'd read about, I finally were putting into play.
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You have to look in the mirror and face some of your weaknesses and some of those things that you're not good at.
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Do you have any co-founders to kind of be the yin to your yang in those situations?
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I have a number two who owns about 10% of the company.
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But when I first started my entrepreneurial journey, I went 50-50 with someone, didn't work out.
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And so the second time around, I gave 10% to my technical.
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But yeah, total yin to my yang, complete opposite human.
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ups and lots of ups and downs through it all but we're still we're still working on it and what
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is it about doing b2b that that you've had to discover and figure out from a go-to-market
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point of view that was different the sales process is significantly different you know
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when you're doing that direct to consumer stuff it's instant there's no sales support there so
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that's one of the reasons we're huge fans of sass academy is like the on like kind of that
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the discovery side of things was something we were never very good at we're getting a lot better
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Like we hacked our way to a little over a million and a bit in revenue last year
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But we know that this is a probably twenty five million dollar a year business when we look at our competitors the market who we can work with
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Now we're really starting to implement a lot of these things from sas academy on like the prospecting side of things
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To actually running them through a true sales funnel and then actually getting to closing and onboarding and
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Actually, our customer success is just mind-boggling to me right now the amount of people that
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it's a huge process compared to the world I came from.
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cause I've got this image in my mind of the Josh
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I've done something that very few people can do,
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that are always out at events, they're being recognized,
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honestly, if you apply, you'll probably win kind of awards
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Um, you know, and it sounded like you had to eat a slice of humble pie, um, when kind of those
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grand visions and workout, you know, what, if you're going back now, what would you have done
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differently? Say no to a lot more things. I think you really hit it on the, on the nail there. Um,
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there's so many distractions. Your time is so valuable. And another great kind of like learning
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for me was, um, kind of when COVID did hit and we went work from home, I've spent my whole life
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working in an office, even when I was like 19 and went to my first advertising job. Um, I was in an
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office from, you know, 7 30 AM till six or seven at night. And I kind of emulated that and my boss
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there and I brought it to Kelowna and I did that here, got an office like right away, was there
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all day, every day, six, seven days a week. And it was just kind of like the way that it was.
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And so I think once Techstars happened, a big thing that I had to get come to like grips with was a I was in Boulder for four and a bit months.
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And then when I came home, I was kind of like more comfortable with that.
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And so I wouldn't have been more comfortable with that when I came home.
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Exactly. And so now that COVID hit and all, or I guess we had to go work from home in the last
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year and so many tech companies have went work from home and digital and remote. Now I actually
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look at it as an advantage and it has forced me to A, measure my time better, focus my time better.
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And there's so many more things that I've been able to do in the last year and a half since
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working from home. And I've been incredibly more productive and the results speak for themselves.
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and so what what do you say no to now which change around how you manage your time
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i definitely don't take as many just like random vc calls as many like just you know do you want
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to chat about xyz business opportunity like none of those things when they hit my inbox i don't i
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i might respond pretty curt candidly just get it over with but yeah i don't really like to open my
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calendar up to too many people to be honest and that's different than it was before i would have
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said yes to anything and every opportunity that ever wants to talk oh yeah let's go yeah yeah
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um in regards to some you mentioned a few books is there any other books that have kind of shaped
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your thinking around personal development or entrepreneurship that that have been meaningful
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for you well the bible for me is um measure what matters yeah i'll put this away uh measure what
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matters by john doer we tech stars did teach us about okrs our entire company runs on okrs now
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and I love them so much. And it's allowed me a lot of freedom, especially with now that we work
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from home with the fact that I can just set an objective, put key results, put dates with them,
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and I can just trust my people to measure themselves against them. And now it's actually
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at a stage where my best leaders are stepping up and they're doing them themselves. And so
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measure what matters, I think is kind of a Bible for us. Predictable revenue, another great one
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for sales. I know that we have a whole Monday board right now of objectives that we're going
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to just be constantly implementing and split testing on the sales and success side with that.
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The five dysfunctions of a team. Yeah. Lencioni. Yeah. Always a good one. You know, the power
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habit on personal development. I also just love biographies. Like I just read Stephen
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Schwarzman's again. Then you have really anything by Walter Isaacson on Steve Jobs.
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I feel like Sam Zell we'd hang out with and we didn't, like-
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I'm putting that on my, like, I want to get him from Chicago to Kelowna and to hang out.
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um but you know when did your journey start as a as a reader like how did that how'd that come to
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be well i only have like a high school education and then when so kind of like when i was 18 i
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there was a guy in my town outside of edmonton that was like two or three years older than me
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i'd seen him at track meets and stuff throughout the years went to a high school i grew up in town
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like 60, 70,000 people. And he's like driving a Lamborghini and like lives in like the rich
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neighborhood of the thing. And so I've kind of had it set in my mind. I'm like, I'm not going
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to university. I'm going to follow him around until I get a job. And I worked with him for a
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while. And how did you get that job? Literally like just followed him around, like trying to
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be not too creepy, but probably a little creepy, but yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. And I started
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in customer service who's selling lots of like total digital advertiser. Uh, I learned a lot
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from that guy, but avid reader, super hard worker. And so I guess it would have been like 18, 19 when
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I really started picking up books. And then once I got into entrepreneurship, when I was like 23,
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24, I just realized there was always a solution in them. And when you come across a book at the
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right time in your life, there's a, that's a really good feeling. And so I spend at least
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a couple hours a day reading and it's just, it's part of the routine. That's amazing. So you,
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you see this guy that has the car, lives in the big house.
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and then through osmosis, watching him execute,
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and how did they, what did you learn from these people?
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Well, number one, I'd probably put Jason Mendelsohn from Foundry.
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Like I kind of did the same thing with Foundry.
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Like when we got out of Techstars, we had multiple venture offers,
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Brutal honesty, delivered kindly is like something that like a motto
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He never took more than 60 seconds to respond to an email.
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he could respond to an email in less than two minutes, 24 hours a day. Um, I don't know how
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he did that. Brad Feld as well. I love reading anything about Brad Feld, even the way he speaks
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and talks about kind of like the, just the landscape of the world is fascinating. Larry
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Smith from Kelowna, um, accelerated Okanagan, uh, Fraser Campbell, all of these people help shape
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me. I'm totally like a chameleon to like put me in with these people and I'll learn and absorb as
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much as I can. And I'll take a lot away from it. It's one of the reasons I kind of got connected
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with you as well. So as soon as I kind of saw the Sass thing, I was like, oh, this is what we need.
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We don't know how to run a B2B company. We need coaches and we need to be surrounded by companies
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that are doing this and we'll learn fast enough. We might not be the fastest, but we'll get there.
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And yeah, then there's just also people that you never meet, but that become mentors. Yeah. You
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tech companies that you assumed was different when you started versus how it really is?
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Well, I think one of the things I thought, I thought engineering was arguably the most
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measurable thing ever and data was the most measurable thing ever. But when you really
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get into it, there's often, well, as kind of everything, there's always two sides to the story
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and it's kind of how you perceive it and how you look at it like one thing can mean something to
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this person and totally different to the other person and so you kind of have to i think i used
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to be really fast to jump to conclusions when my engineering team would give me responses and now
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i'm more at a point where it's like i kind of feel like there's always another side to it
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and it's allowed me to kind of be less decisive on a lot of matters within the company growing
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the tech side like for example we might be evaluating a data set um from like one provider
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versus the other provider and like you know we will have debates on our team of which one is
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better and why and it's really hard to choose nowadays we kind of just will buy both um and
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figure it out because that's the way i see my company going it's like the more the merrier
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we'll do that part but it's the small part that we can sell to someone where we become value add
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but i used to be pretty decisive about what i thought was right and wrong and now i just
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that you have changed the way you build your culture
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as you mentioned, you felt like you kind of lost. Yeah. Culture is a great thing. I don't remember
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who told me this, but it's like, it's a direct reflection of the CEO, the culture of the company,
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it bleeds down. And if you're having issues with it, like the best place you can look is in the
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mirror, in my opinion. And then the next place you have to look as your leadership team and what's
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going on there with a stated and data nerds, the things that we've done that have been really
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valuable. And we're constantly experimenting with these things, but one that stuck through
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is a thing we called retrotude and it's every Friday at 3 p.m. And it's a retrospective and
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gratitude together. When we had the office, we literally had Kleenex boxes with post-it notes
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on them that you could drop little gratitudes in. And on Friday at 3 p.m., we would sit down as a
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team and read them. Gets really hard when you go virtual. So now it's, and you kind of have to pry
00:24:13.780
it a little bit more because it's not throughout the week, people would just put them in and then
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they'd come up again. That's one thing that's been amazing for our culture, for people to get
00:24:21.760
to know each other too. And just to say, thank you to each other. Um, another thing we've been
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doing is kind of like, we just do a weekly hour meeting and we either do like a 15 or minute
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video on YouTube about mindset or mental health or something going on in the company at that time.
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Maybe it's real estate or data. Maybe it's one of our comp, like one of our clients that have
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raised a bunch of capital. Like we had blend raised 300 million and half my staff didn't
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even know what blend was um you know this company literally hits our api millions of times and
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they're like what is this i'm like oh yeah they're a multi-billion dollar company that's you know
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gonna go public here soon and they're a customer yeah they love us i know you guys don't know that
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but um so we do little things like that uh and then yeah culture is just kind of like
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i think okay ours is is we've made it really clear that this is how our company runs
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we have like our onboarding is mostly just you know read measure what matters and and this is
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how you're going to see our company run. And you have to get used to that. Yeah. So using the
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content to almost onboard and activate new hires and then see if they resonate with that or not.
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It's pretty quick, but we know that we have some core values. And I think the most prominent one
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is you have to be able to thrive in autonomy. And I've really learned that just from me,
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I need autonomy. If you put boundaries around me that I don't agree with, it gets,
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it gets ugly for me. And that's something I've had to go to therapy for, for a long time,
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but you learn a lot about yourself through that. And so there, there's a lot of autonomy in our
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company. We don't want to have tons of meetings. I don't think like, you know, Foundry has this
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thread going on right now about death by meeting. Like when you go virtual and you have a team of
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20, 30, 40, maybe a hundred people, that's a lot of meetings for a CEO. And so you have to learn
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how to get rid of those things. And autonomy has kind of been my best thing. And with OKRs,
00:26:14.660
that are attached to them that you need to deliver by.
00:26:39.920
I think it was Vince Lombardi or somebody said,
00:26:47.000
And it's like, the culture is gonna be set from up top.
00:26:50.480
Josh, as we wrap up, I'd love to hear your answer
00:27:06.740
to achieve the level of success you're at today?
00:27:13.240
Yeah, what are those beliefs shifts that had to happen
00:27:22.640
One thing that I'm proud of myself is through even the ups and downs,
00:27:26.740
I've managed to maintain a lot of that confidence.
00:27:33.700
It doesn't matter who, you can't point the finger.
1.00
00:27:35.520
If you point the finger, you look like shit.
1.00
00:27:37.300
and I believe that so strongly and so I'd say there's kind of the person that I I've become
1.00
00:27:44.280
over the last especially five years is I've become a lot more reflective um maybe one of the reasons
00:27:49.760
I could run so fast is because I typically run without music and I run a lot of hours during
00:27:54.860
the week I don't know how many um every I used to be super data driven I got to a point a couple
00:27:59.700
years ago I was just like I don't even care like I just want to go out and run no headphones no
00:28:04.040
phone and unplug for a while. And so I've become a person where like I reflect on everything pretty
00:28:09.800
deeply now. And I love that two, three hours a day of silence that I can get, um, just to be with
00:28:15.600
myself. And so it's allowed me to be more productive. It allows me to listen better to
00:28:20.440
other people, absorb that information. And I wasn't like that in my twenties, more decisive,
00:28:25.100
jump to the conclusion, just get this done, work really hard until it gets done. Now I'm really
00:28:30.780
strategic on like, can we get this done faster, working smarter rather than working harder.
00:28:36.300
And, you know, as you grow older, I think you don't try and rush the process as much.
00:28:42.160
It starts, I feel a lot more comfortable now knowing that things aren't going to get, I mean,
00:28:46.440
if it's going to be a day late, but I know it's going to be done properly, I'm okay with that.
00:28:50.380
It used to drive me nuts. And so I think I've slowed down, learned to reflect a lot. And if
00:28:55.500
I could have told myself that when I was 20, it's like, it's going to work out.
00:28:58.240
that would have been a nice thing to know. That's interesting. So essentially
00:29:03.640
the understanding when to be patient, knowing that, you know, if you can control it, you will,
00:29:12.680
but a lot of stuff you can't. And then I think it's just even the discipline
00:29:15.720
that you talk about of just reflecting on action. A lot of entrepreneurs don't build that feedback
00:29:22.680
loop. And I think that's what has set you apart amongst my clients. Honestly, Josh, you're
00:29:27.060
somebody that's humble. You're willing to do the work. Um, you show up, uh, you're eager to learn,
00:29:33.580
you're curious. Um, and those are things I think that, uh, other people want to follow your team
00:29:39.280
wants to follow that. So it's been really cool watching that journey. Um, where do people find
00:29:43.200
you on the internet? Stated.com. It's probably the best place. Josh had a stated, if you want
00:29:48.600
to chat, you want to give people your email. I hope. Yeah. Everybody asks Josh for his time.
00:29:52.080
We'll see if he says no. Someone on my team will give you their time. There we go. He's got help.