Dan Martell - The Future of Sales Is No Quota with Jacco @ WinningByDesign.com - Escape Velocity Show #36

00:00:00.120 Banned is dead. Banned is essentially killing your sales.

00:00:03.780 Admission sequence five. Three, two, one.

00:00:17.020 Jaco, what's up, man?

00:00:18.100 Not much. How about yourself?

00:00:19.220 I'm doing amazing. Thanks for coming on here and chatting.

00:00:22.020 Winning by design, sales thought leader, the most energetic.

00:00:26.600 I mean, I've seen videos of you dancing in sales.

00:00:28.680 I don't know what you're doing, but it's like meetings.

00:00:30.440 And you're like, hey, everybody, we're

00:00:31.440 going to start with some dance.

00:00:32.940 You showed up with the Red Bull.

00:00:34.360 You got the unofficial title, 14 Red Bulls in four hours.

00:00:37.320 That's right.

00:00:37.940 And that was not because somebody dared you?

00:00:41.220 I don't drink alcohol.

00:00:42.440 So when I go out with friends and they keep ordering beer,

00:00:46.440 then the logical is like, oh, give him a Red Bull.

00:00:48.840 Since those cans are quite small.

00:00:50.740 So small.

00:00:51.280 Yeah.

00:00:51.680 And so everybody drank 14 beers that night,

00:00:54.120 and I drank 14 Red Bulls.

00:00:55.440 I was a designated driver, and it was like seven, eight people.

00:00:57.920 So you'll drive really good.

00:01:00.220 Fast.

00:01:00.620 Yeah.

00:01:01.120 No, not fast, but you're really alert.

00:01:02.720 You can see cars coming from like 16 miles of where you are.

00:01:05.000 High fidelity.

00:01:05.900 Yeah, everything's in high def.

00:01:08.840 Tell everybody your journey, because I know that you started

00:01:11.160 back in the day, obviously, in sales.

00:01:13.200 You've been doing Winning by Design for a while.

00:01:15.140 What's been your journey in the sales space?

00:01:17.640 Yeah, so in the sales space, the journey is as follows.

00:01:21.180 I was, from the beginning, an engineer.

00:01:23.580 And as an engineer, as I was traveling around the world,

00:01:26.920 One of the things that I helped with

00:01:28.920 is launch satellite Earth stations.

00:01:32.760 Yeah, in order to see if anybody's

00:01:34.680 going to catch on low orbit.

00:01:37.680 Yeah, exactly.

00:01:38.760 What we did is for early MTV broadcast.

00:01:41.220 Now, I was a test engineer.

00:01:42.920 Oh, this is like a real thing.

00:01:44.080 I thought you were just joking when you said satellite.

00:01:46.760 My life is a joke, that's for sure.

00:01:49.800 No, but I'm sitting there, and I could see things on TV

00:01:52.700 or help them with what we call video encoding.

00:01:55.100 And so in that process, I started selling.

00:01:56.860 and lo and behold, I was starting to sell more

00:01:59.740 and operate less as a project manager

00:02:01.940 and merged into sales.

00:02:04.780 That sales journey essentially learned me from early on

00:02:08.020 that what the client was,

00:02:09.380 reason why they were buying from me

00:02:10.860 had nothing to do with my negotiation skills,

00:02:13.020 which probably are abysmal,

00:02:15.140 had nothing to do with my pitching techniques.

00:02:17.220 Most of the times people can't understand what I'm saying

00:02:20.300 because he's speaking Dutch, English,

00:02:21.780 whatever language in between.

00:02:23.420 But what I have is an incredible amount of passion

00:02:26.820 in order to help them solve their problem.

00:02:29.120 And I found that since I had a little bit of insight on that,

00:02:31.660 I could.

00:02:32.580 And that's why I generally feel today

00:02:35.100 great sales professionals are the ones

00:02:37.380 who help a customer solve their problem

00:02:40.320 and have an ability to educate them

00:02:42.060 on a particular way or product technique, solution,

00:02:45.360 and so on.

00:02:47.040 That is, for me, the gift.

00:02:48.480 And I learned to see that the prospect point was important,

00:02:52.180 to not try to sell a customer, but rather to help them

00:02:55.420 facilitate the buying process.

00:02:57.920 Now, helping great SDRs, account execs.

00:03:02.300 Do I have to, like, you don't mind if I interrupt?

00:03:05.600 No, you should definitely interrupt.

00:03:07.020 Dang.

00:03:07.520 Swear, you can do whatever you want.

00:03:08.580 This is my show.

00:03:09.100 It's not monetized.

00:03:10.000 I get to decide.

00:03:10.800 Ah, bring it on.

00:03:12.140 But give me something spicy, something good

00:03:13.980 that people actually pay attention to this part.

00:03:16.520 I think it's just, like, the interface of what

00:03:20.480 allows somebody to be great at sales in regards

00:03:22.980 to the content context process.

00:03:25.280 I think I saw on LinkedIn a while ago,

00:03:27.320 you posted one of your clients, SDRs or AEs,

00:03:30.400 and they had like the monitor

00:03:31.840 and there was like all these cards around it.

00:03:34.640 You know, like what are the,

00:03:37.420 like, cause I feel like there's people that take this

00:03:39.460 as like, they're serious about it, right?

00:03:41.640 And then there's some people that just kind of show up

00:03:43.380 and they get on calls and they don't really care.

00:03:45.140 What are you seeing the best of the best do?

00:03:46.920 Okay, first and foremost,

00:03:48.580 I wanna get away from some whatever.

00:03:51.680 You may explain to me in a second what it is,

00:03:53.480 but always people think it's the same person.

00:03:55.380 Oh, it's got to be a person who's really good in talking,

00:03:58.060 and he's got to be an extrovert,

00:03:59.860 and that person is going to be a great salesperson.

00:04:02.120 I don't believe in that.

00:04:03.540 I believe that great salespeople and introverts

00:04:06.300 can become a great salesperson.

00:04:08.020 There is something that is inside a person

00:04:10.260 that makes them a great architect or a great engineer,

00:04:13.140 and there's 90% of people actually being able to do a job

00:04:17.280 and execute a process or follow instructions,

00:04:20.720 whatever we do.

00:04:21.640 What most people want to do

00:04:23.060 they want to wing it in sales and when you're in that winging in the mode we often become dependent

00:04:27.700 of what we call superstars now you recognize a company that's dependent on superstars because

00:04:33.060 when something goes right first thing they want to do is hire more people in sales and when something

00:04:37.540 goes wrong first thing they do is get rid of everybody get rid of everybody right and so

00:04:41.700 when you see this is taking a place then we know this is generally a people-based organization

00:04:47.060 which in most cases would be meant as a positive but in this case you know we want to be very

00:04:50.820 careful with that we go like look not the right way now if you're an early stage startup and

00:04:55.940 you're trying to get to your first million a great sales person you know like really really make a

00:05:01.060 difference and process is not established yet so in that case you really want to move forward with

00:05:05.540 a person in that range but as soon as you reach 30 40 clients in like what we call platform sales

00:05:12.420 and let's say 20 000 subscribers if you're looking at it from a from a from a user-based

00:05:17.460 usage-based sales or seed-based sales,

00:05:20.460 then we need to be talking about process.

00:05:23.460 That means that great salespeople

00:05:25.560 need to be people who can execute processes.

00:05:28.560 Processes.

00:05:29.460 And then what you find, that sounds very theoretical,

00:05:32.160 what you find is like when people have worked in a sports

00:05:35.220 team before, not because they were the alpha, winning,

00:05:38.160 winning, winning, but rather because they

00:05:39.860 could listen to a coach, take on instructions, execute it,

00:05:43.360 improve along the way, that is what we're looking for.

00:05:46.660 And what are you, when you start working with a client,

00:05:49.280 what is the process you walk them through to make sure

00:05:52.620 that you start building those processes and kind of,

00:05:55.720 and sometimes assuming you may have to clear out

00:05:58.000 the sales team if they're not on board?

00:06:01.420 Yeah, not necessarily our choice.

00:06:03.820 Most of the times, I feel like everybody

00:06:06.940 not only should be given a fair chance,

00:06:08.500 but everybody is in the role that they are.

00:06:12.420 I'm not there to tell a person you can or cannot,

00:06:14.860 or they should or shouldn't.

00:06:16.600 What I think that we're there to see is like,

00:06:17.960 hey, here's how you do it right.

00:06:19.860 And then like any coach, you know, like what we do is

00:06:22.840 with an unrelenting passion and energy,

00:06:25.620 we try to help that person to get on the way.

00:06:27.960 And what I find is that the biggest critics,

00:06:31.200 if you're able to make a big critic actually a proponent,

00:06:36.300 then you, you know, like they, he or she will take

00:06:39.040 a lot of persons with them along on their journey.

00:06:41.440 So often these people are critics in the beginning

00:06:44.260 for a very good reason.

00:06:45.340 And they've worked for five or six pretty bad VPs of sales

00:06:49.220 in the past, or sales leaders.

00:06:50.920 They don't trust or they understand

00:06:52.580 that they're pretty much reliant on their own skills.

00:06:54.640 And then this company comes by and says, here's how you do it.

00:06:58.060 Let's take a moment here.

00:06:59.320 I've been here before.

00:07:00.760 Please sit.

00:07:01.900 I've been exposed to the training in the past.

00:07:03.880 Exactly.

00:07:04.580 If I be quiet, it will go away eventually.

00:07:06.520 Yeah, I'll just let it play itself out.

00:07:09.100 And then I named two.

00:07:10.060 And that's fair.

00:07:10.780 That's fair.

00:07:11.300 And then I named two tricks.

00:07:12.560 And I tell the trainer, hey, I'm really using your tricks.

00:07:14.720 it really helpful great i'm now off the the list so to speak is was that allowed on this yeah you

00:07:19.220 can swear for sure okay yeah and so i'm off the list so then i'm you know then things really start

00:07:23.660 to work okay and like when you um help these companies make that transition uh is it reverse

00:07:32.300 engine like do you guys have a specific because i know you do a lot of the the videos like i mean

00:07:36.500 your diagrams i can tell you're a systems thinker and an engineer um and i want to get back to the

00:07:42.440 diagrams, but how much of it is like your process versus

00:07:47.420 extracting it from there, what they do?

00:07:49.880 OK, so we extract it first and foremost from what they do.

00:07:52.580 We start with what they're currently doing.

00:07:54.660 That's working, I'm assuming, like bright spots.

00:07:56.300 You look for what's working.

00:07:57.500 I look for what's working.

00:08:00.080 What we are knowing, like if somebody calls it,

00:08:02.460 oh, I have an investigation call, we like to say,

00:08:07.500 it's like, hey, what is that step?

00:08:09.140 What are you doing in there?

00:08:10.580 We call it disco call.

00:08:11.640 but whether they call it investigation call,

00:08:13.440 a disco call, disco demo, that is not.

00:08:15.960 But I want to know what is working in there.

00:08:18.420 Now, I'm not listening to the, I'm not asking them, hey,

00:08:20.660 what's working?

00:08:21.240 I'll go like, give me a call recording, right?

00:08:23.200 Let's take one of the recording techniques or software

00:08:25.320 programs.

00:08:26.080 We want to listen to the calls.

00:08:27.900 In that call, we use that in order to analyze those calls,

00:08:31.360 but not by just software.

00:08:32.540 The software is great.

00:08:33.580 We all know the most common vendors and how good they are.

00:08:36.640 What I'm looking for is donation of a voice.

00:08:38.700 Did they pick up a conversation?

00:08:40.560 When a customer said something, they

00:08:42.240 mentioned two or three rational pains.

00:08:44.000 I want to increase this and decrease that.

00:08:46.100 And when they suddenly said, well, you know,

00:08:47.500 my dashboards are really giving me a headache,

00:08:49.920 did they listen to the headache?

00:08:51.060 Did they hear that?

00:08:51.680 Did they hear that?

00:08:52.620 Or they're saying, is I notice that you want to increase by 12%,

00:08:55.200 which is what we call a rational impact.

00:08:56.960 Did they pick up on the conversation?

00:08:58.900 What do you call that when they, the rational,

00:09:02.560 versus what do you guys call that?

00:09:04.240 Because is that an emotional connection,

00:09:05.760 or is it a more specific, what do you guys call that?

00:09:07.440 We differ between rational and emotional impact.

00:09:09.900 OK, you call it emotional impact, yeah.

00:09:11.400 Rational impact is what benefits the company most.

00:09:14.880 Yeah, business metrics.

00:09:16.560 Business metrics.

00:09:17.300 And we describe that, OK, you save the company a million

00:09:19.860 dollars, do you get to keep that?

00:09:21.160 No, nobody gets to keep that.

00:09:22.500 That goes to the company.

00:09:23.820 And then we say, oh, we can help you save a million dollars,

00:09:27.300 but it doesn't benefit the person on the other side

00:09:29.040 of the table.

00:09:29.900 But if the person says, this is giving me a headache,

00:09:32.080 and that's causing me pain, and every Sunday

00:09:33.720 I got to create these reports, or I have to work 12-hour days.

00:09:37.180 It's gold.

00:09:38.000 Right?

00:09:38.900 And so then what we're saying is, OK, let me ask you

00:09:41.500 a few more things.

00:09:42.800 Now, what we would teach sales professionals

00:09:45.260 is if you listen to that, and you then

00:09:47.520 help that person, your client, solve the headache,

00:09:50.600 that person, your client, cannot go to the boss and say,

00:09:53.280 hey, I really want to buy from this Jaco dude,

00:09:56.080 because he's really going to save me some time on the weekend.

00:09:58.580 They can't say that.

00:09:59.540 No, they need a rational argument.

00:10:01.880 OK, so you get them to buy on the emotional,

00:10:04.420 but they pitch internally on the rational.

00:10:06.380 Now, you hit it right.

00:10:07.620 they pitch internally on the rational.

00:10:09.900 Where do you think they get the pitch from?

00:10:11.340 You guys.

00:10:11.880 And so what we need to do are the seller, not from us guys.

00:10:14.100 But what we need to do is like the seller is now

00:10:16.940 there to help your buyer sell internally.

00:10:21.140 And the most normal way how they do that

00:10:23.160 is you've got to provide them content.

00:10:24.960 You've got to provide them charge, visual diagrams,

00:10:27.020 right?

00:10:27.520 You've got to provide them.

00:10:28.680 We would call it the assets.

00:10:30.720 In the old days, if we were buying routers,

00:10:32.880 you would say, give me an ROI on this model.

00:10:35.580 But everything in SaaS has a reasonable positive ROI.

00:10:38.340 So you've got to give a little bit more than an ROI.

00:10:40.420 You've got to give materials, visual diagrams,

00:10:43.100 simplifications.

00:10:44.620 And so as a modern seller, you've

00:10:46.900 got to arm your internal buyer to sell to whoever they sell.

00:10:50.160 And I feel like when I've talked to my best salespeople,

00:10:52.460 they created those assets.

00:10:53.520 Absolutely.

00:10:54.340 So it's almost like you've got to find their little stash

00:10:56.460 of this diagram or they paid somebody in marketing

00:10:59.700 to draw them something, and now they're using that

00:11:01.620 and closing deals.

00:11:02.460 Absolutely.

00:11:02.960 So for example, if somebody has a website and they have a great, let's say, blog post

00:11:10.660 or something like that, of course I can send the link of that blog post to that person.

00:11:15.220 I can do that.

00:11:16.560 Or what I can do, I turn it into a PDF, then I highlight in the PDF a particular section,

00:11:22.220 and then I forward to the person and say, on page two, in the third paragraph, I highlight

00:11:25.500 that section that applies to you.

00:11:27.400 Now guess what they're going to do with that thing internally?

00:11:29.580 Forward it along.

00:11:30.580 Forward it along.

00:11:31.580 Now, I'm not interested whether everybody reads the PDF.

00:11:34.000 All I'm interested is go to paragraph two, see it,

00:11:36.080 and there's the quote.

00:11:37.300 If they're interested, they'll read the rest of the article.

00:11:39.800 This is a form of arming your internal buyer

00:11:44.460 to sell internally with a particular piece of content.

00:11:47.560 The power that we need to understand

00:11:49.900 is if that content comes from the seller company,

00:11:53.040 with the logo on top of it, it is perceived

00:11:55.340 to be less valuable than if that content came from-

00:11:59.200 Buyer on stuff?

00:12:00.080 Yeah, a Harvard Business Review article, third party,

00:12:03.400 qualified, preferably academic, but not necessarily,

00:12:06.640 but a little bit academic would be great.

00:12:08.840 That's fascinating.

00:12:09.620 And what are other aspects of the sale

00:12:13.140 that you find are critical in selling B2B SaaS

00:12:15.760 in today's market?

00:12:17.900 And I know, again, back to the diagrams,

00:12:19.540 you map this out, take it apart, rip it apart,

00:12:22.000 like hit it with different angles.

00:12:23.760 But at a high level, what do people need?

00:12:26.900 Because a lot of my people watching,

00:12:28.500 and they've got two salespeople. 0.68

00:12:31.380 They're still early.

00:12:32.340 They're trying to make sure they're productive

00:12:33.960 because it's expensive.

00:12:35.020 I know.

00:12:35.400 I got you.

00:12:36.180 And also what we need, we need to have

00:12:37.840 some provocative stuff in there.

00:12:39.420 We just like, boom, he said something like my mind is blown.

00:12:41.760 I need something for the title.

00:12:42.840 A title, OK.

00:12:44.000 BANT is dead.

00:12:45.360 BANT is essentially killing your sales.

00:12:47.820 BANT stands for budget, authority, need, and timeline.

00:12:50.960 And it's an outdated process from IBM

00:12:53.680 in case I have to sell multimillion dollar machines

00:12:57.440 for which you have to break out a wall

00:12:59.100 out of your building to get it in,

00:13:01.140 then hey, may I ask before we do a demo,

00:13:03.440 do you have budget for this?

00:13:05.260 Because we're not gonna do all this for you.

00:13:08.140 Applies in that case.

00:13:09.760 In SaaS, it doesn't.

00:13:12.140 And so budget, for example,

00:13:14.560 I can go talk about all four,

00:13:15.780 but budget, if they have budget,

00:13:19.320 you're too late, people.

00:13:20.700 And budget fluctuates too.

00:13:22.320 What I'm looking for, is it a priority?

00:13:25.580 Now we can all say like, oh, it's the same.

00:13:27.140 No, it's not.

00:13:28.160 Not the same.

00:13:29.060 Budget has an, you know, like, oh, I got 20,000.

00:13:31.620 It's quantifiable.

00:13:32.360 Yes, quantifiable.

00:13:33.620 But priority is what you can change for the client.

00:13:36.920 Now, in SaaS services, you know, like a reasonable company

00:13:40.040 will buy, let's say, five different SaaS services a quarter.

00:13:43.760 So if you're number four or five and they have budget.

00:13:45.620 The average buys four or five a quarter.

00:13:47.160 I do not know that because it's very dependent

00:13:48.860 on the size of the company.

00:13:49.820 Yeah, and the type of company.

00:13:51.080 But I think in SMB, you're right.

00:13:52.280 It feels about right.

00:13:53.000 It feels about right.

00:13:54.080 And so, but that means that you need to become number one priority for that.

00:13:58.060 Who's, oh, you know what, you're going to be priority number four.

00:14:00.740 I'm sorry, we only had money for like two, you would say.

00:14:02.900 It's like, no, priority is what you can create.

00:14:06.420 That's cool.

00:14:07.020 And that's what you help clients arm their salespeople by the questions, by hitting the emotional.

00:14:14.000 This is.

00:14:14.500 Dang, you're smart.

00:14:15.400 No, I'm serious.

00:14:15.820 This is cool, man.

00:14:16.400 This is cool.

00:14:17.000 No, the priority is set based on the impact that you create.

00:14:19.800 Right?

00:14:20.860 Because if.

00:14:21.360 And that's the difference between a great sales team and another one is that if you didn't help the buyer make the decision criteria to rank it up and somebody else just gets on information selling, then they're just not going to win the deal.

00:14:33.460 Exactly.

00:14:33.880 Now, I'm going to give you some, you know, like, now, band is like a gating function, like other, you know, like, qualification techniques.

00:14:40.880 It's like, oh, you're through the band?

00:14:42.420 Welcome to Disneyland.

00:14:43.780 Well, I would say every ride is for free, but it ain't anymore, right?

00:14:46.320 But, you know, oh, the park is yours.

00:14:48.080 Go ahead.

00:14:48.920 You want a sales engineer?

00:14:49.900 Oh, we have that available, too.

00:14:51.360 Oh, you want to have an extra demo?

00:14:52.700 Oh, no.

00:14:54.820 Something needs to happen, not only once, but constantly.

00:14:58.600 Now, the word impact, if I hand this off as an SER to an AE,

00:15:03.900 as a sales development rep to an account executive,

00:15:06.320 I can say, as a sales development rep,

00:15:08.160 the customer wants this impact by this date.

00:15:10.920 Let's say the client now commits to a contract.

00:15:13.460 He hands it off to the onboarder and says,

00:15:15.600 the client wants this by this date.

00:15:17.900 Now the customer success organization is going to say,

00:15:20.160 It's like, hey, may I ask, have we achieved what you wanted,

00:15:23.600 the impact, by the set date?

00:15:25.700 And they can measure impact.

00:15:26.960 And every month, they can report on achieving the impact.

00:15:29.600 What it means is, band was a one-time thing.

00:15:32.140 But qualifying customers on impact

00:15:34.180 and what we call critical event is something that happens

00:15:36.780 all across the journey, and by de facto becomes

00:15:40.020 a uniform language that sales.

00:15:41.580 And it helps with retention.

00:15:42.780 And it helps with retention.

00:15:44.160 Because retention simply is, how would I re-

00:15:47.180 Still get value from this thing.

00:15:48.560 Still may impact on my business.

00:15:49.780 Yes, a lot of impact on my business.

00:15:51.100 Now, what we were recommending is, like,

00:15:53.280 why don't you report proactively to the customer

00:15:56.140 what impact you're having?

00:15:57.840 And so one of the techniques we ask, for example,

00:16:00.020 for the onboarders, and I'll play the role, you're my buyer.

00:16:02.200 An onboarder would be like customer success or, yeah.

00:16:04.180 Yes.

00:16:04.840 And so I would ask you, is it dad?

00:16:06.760 Am I playing your wife?

00:16:07.640 Yeah.

00:16:08.140 I didn't know what you just said.

00:16:08.920 You play my customer.

00:16:10.180 My wife?

00:16:10.920 No, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that.

00:16:12.060 OK.

00:16:12.900 I am Dutch, but not that Dutch.

00:16:13.680 I thought that's what you said.

00:16:14.580 No, no, no, no, no, no.

00:16:15.860 It's a slip of the tongue.

00:16:17.660 So what I now go is like, this is rapidly turning into like,

00:16:21.800 now what I'm going to do, you're going to be my customer

00:16:24.080 and I'm going to ask you, Dan, may I ask,

00:16:25.940 do you have an, you know, as an executive at a company

00:16:28.480 of 200 employees, may I ask, are you having a monthly meeting

00:16:32.680 with your executive team?

00:16:34.020 Yes.

00:16:34.780 Is that every first Monday of the month?

00:16:36.780 Yeah, it's monthly, yeah.

00:16:37.560 Great.

00:16:37.880 And you normally spend, you know, like the days before?

00:16:40.080 90 minutes.

00:16:40.620 Oh, prepping?

00:16:41.580 Yeah, probably the previous week to get ready for it.

00:16:44.320 Great.

00:16:45.180 I log that.

00:16:46.400 Now what I'm going to do,

00:16:47.140 I'm going to send an impact report.

00:16:48.760 Next level.

00:16:49.480 This is next level.

00:16:50.260 Right?

00:16:51.020 And so now I know it's like, and I give a graph

00:16:53.700 with three key measurement points.

00:16:55.660 Because I know when you're creating a report,

00:16:57.480 you don't have time.

00:16:58.240 You just want to do a copy and paste into the document,

00:17:00.800 three key points, and you're boom.

00:17:02.320 If you do that month over month.

00:17:03.880 You're arming your customers.

00:17:06.400 This isn't, I mean, this is big.

00:17:08.740 Like I've never heard people really break it apart this way.

00:17:12.040 Because this is like, usually you've

00:17:13.540 got the sales function.

00:17:15.580 or does their job handoff?

00:17:16.960 AE does their job handoff.

00:17:18.440 There's no strategic alignment,

00:17:20.680 yet there's so much gold being extracted

00:17:23.460 in all these conversations

00:17:24.760 that if you are able to create a life cycle around that journey,

00:17:28.340 this is the reverse bow tie I know you've talked about.

00:17:30.540 That's how we increase.

00:17:31.960 Somebody said recently, retention is a new conversion.

00:17:35.260 Because that's how we get SaaS to work, right?

00:17:38.740 That's right.

00:17:39.320 What other stuff do you teach people to do like that?

00:17:42.460 OK, well, a simple one that I want you to do,

00:17:44.740 Because I am like, this needs to be known in the world

00:17:48.880 that the key indicator,

00:17:51.220 if somebody is successful or not in their job,

00:17:53.700 comes down to the simple thought of, can you take notes?

00:17:58.600 I can give you the best ideas in the world.

00:18:01.540 If you can't remember them, what good are you?

00:18:05.000 Salespeople need to learn customer success stories.

00:18:07.460 They need to learn that by taking notes

00:18:09.120 of the customer success stories.

00:18:11.060 And I would say the same thing.

00:18:12.800 In sales, I consider a few things.

00:18:14.740 Sales is marketing, sales, and customer success.

00:18:16.800 I split the company in two kinds.

00:18:18.300 You've got an engineering product or sales.

00:18:20.060 Sometimes when I say today on the call, guys, I will try to make sure I correct myself.

00:18:24.160 I mean people that are facing the customer.

00:18:27.940 And so when I see these organizations not take notes and not teaching taking notes,

00:18:33.320 if I tell you as my customer, hey, here's the five key things that are really important to me.

00:18:39.700 And then I mention one, two, three, four, and five.

00:18:41.780 And you're only going to remember two or three because you don't take.

00:18:45.220 Which ones are you going to remember?

00:18:47.020 The ones that are going to help me the most, I guess.

00:18:49.240 That's right.

00:18:49.680 The ones that are going to help you the most.

00:18:51.180 Who said they were going to help me the most?

00:18:53.920 And so that's why taking notes is so important.

00:18:56.140 Are you a fan of handwritten?

00:18:57.780 Because I know a lot of salespeople like to do,

00:18:59.480 but it sounds distracting when they're typing when you're talking to them.

00:19:02.940 Are you a fan of the...

00:19:03.960 I'm a fan of writing, but I'll take any taking notes at this point in time.

00:19:07.380 All right.

00:19:07.620 You're just taking notes.

00:19:08.560 Taking notes.

00:19:09.680 Awesome notes.

00:19:10.220 Yeah, I do want to make sure that when, you know, for example.

00:19:12.820 It's got to get logged in the system.

00:19:13.760 Get logged in the system.

00:19:14.560 But if you take, explain to the customer,

00:19:16.680 I hope you don't mind me typing.

00:19:18.180 When you hear me typing, know that I'm taking notes.

00:19:21.100 Simply by saying that up front in the conversation,

00:19:23.900 if you don't say that and I hear you type.

00:19:25.980 Oh, that's such a good point.

00:19:27.080 If I don't, if you don't say that.

00:19:27.900 I think you think distracted.

00:19:29.000 You think, oh, they're typing emails right.

00:19:29.780 They're surfing the internet.

00:19:30.680 They're surfing the internet.

00:19:32.080 Tell me your top challenges.

00:19:34.620 Exactly.

00:19:34.900 I didn't even start talking.

00:19:35.840 You started typing.

00:19:36.620 It's like, calm down.

00:19:37.740 But now if I told you every time you hear me type,

00:19:39.740 What do you think?

00:19:40.580 Man, this guy takes great notes.

00:19:41.580 He's listening.

00:19:42.200 He's listening.

00:19:43.540 Bingo.

00:19:44.420 Wow, what a distinction.

00:19:46.460 Like that subtle, like, hey, I hope you don't mind

00:19:48.960 that I take some notes as we chat.

00:19:52.000 So I think I've seen a blog post recently where you said

00:19:54.320 SDRs are dead or something.

00:19:55.720 It sounds like a lot of things are dying.

00:19:56.960 Maybe that, I think, is that going away?

00:19:58.880 I wouldn't say that.

00:19:59.540 So it would not be one of my posts.

00:20:00.840 Or they're going away.

00:20:01.720 They're going away.

00:20:02.460 No, no, no.

00:20:02.980 I have some provocative statements on that.

00:20:05.000 But dead and dying, you know, like, no.

00:20:07.020 But they're going away or they're being merged.

00:20:08.720 Or do you think it's more of like one person's doing both?

00:20:11.760 Are we sure there was coffee in that cup of yours now?

00:20:13.760 Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:20:14.340 OK, I have a few provocative points here.

00:20:16.520 I don't think that.

00:20:18.020 What I find is that from a sales development wrap,

00:20:21.560 the role of that wrap no longer will

00:20:23.900 do along the high velocity that we originally set.

00:20:26.540 If I had like a two-stage sales organization,

00:20:28.680 where an SDR sets up an AE that historically worked really

00:20:31.940 well from as low as $2,000 to $3,000 ACV,

00:20:35.340 all the way up to $50,000 ACV.

00:20:37.580 It doesn't on the low end anymore.

00:20:39.920 If I want to buy from your product,

00:20:41.660 I'd rather have a quick chat online.

00:20:43.700 Move me straight into some demo.

00:20:45.060 Give me some stuff moving forward.

00:20:46.520 Like, I'll need to be high velocity.

00:20:47.600 They're coming ready to buy.

00:20:48.760 That's right.

00:20:49.640 If you're going to distract me like I need to set up an AE,

00:20:52.760 can I have a meeting, like, that's just a great point.

00:20:54.200 Slow things down.

00:20:54.700 Slow things down, not good.

00:20:56.300 On the high end, what we see is that more and more executives

00:21:00.440 or when you sell it in the range of $50,000,

00:21:03.380 you'll probably have to go through an executive of some

00:21:06.200 sorts when you get that conversation with that executive you do not necessarily as an sdr have

00:21:11.080 that knowledge on the market and on the solution you may have great sales training you may be able

00:21:16.200 to write great emails yeah you're just not known the domain you just don't and i'm not and with

00:21:21.560 many of these roles being uh performed by first second third jobbers that quite is understandable

00:21:27.320 there's nowhere no way we should blame them yeah it's just not the right process for the customer

00:21:31.800 it's a bad experience for the customer yeah and so there is a place and a room for it but we can't

00:21:36.600 blame the first and the young people in the first and the second jobbers young people in that in

00:21:42.600 those roles and say something like well they have no ability to make cold calls these days sales

00:21:47.160 people these days are blah blah blah i'm not believing in that you know what sales people are

00:21:50.680 they're not trained we all the time compare this to sports and army look folks if you really want

00:21:57.160 want to be thinking about sports.

00:21:58.700 People in sports spend 95%, 99% on training,

00:22:02.280 and they have one game a week.

00:22:04.040 Sales is not like that.

00:22:04.900 Preach.

00:22:05.900 Right?

00:22:06.400 And so I go like, look, I am literally working.

00:22:09.340 I'm playing a game, three games in the morning,

00:22:11.120 two games in the afternoon.

00:22:12.520 And if I can, one game later that night, right?

00:22:14.800 And I have no time for training.

00:22:16.100 So we can't really compare it to sports this way.

00:22:18.520 So good.

00:22:19.780 What's the cadence for you when you look

00:22:21.620 at these world-class sales orgs that are process-focused

00:22:24.760 and repeatable?

00:22:26.660 it's not about the star players, what's their rhythms for cadence for meetings, and what

00:22:31.860 are they doing in those meetings?

00:22:33.140 If I focus that on training and performance improvement rather than...

00:22:36.320 Yes, like coaching, listening to calls, review, call reviews.

00:22:39.220 The trick is that it's not necessarily meeting-driven.

00:22:42.780 I'll give you a few things that will happen.

00:22:44.620 The thing is, it happens on the fly.

00:22:47.420 Real knowledge needs to spread.

00:22:49.000 Let's say that you and I are playing basketball, and we're two and two on against each other.

00:22:52.280 And I notice that the Dutski on my side is constantly blocking me. 1.00

00:22:55.800 What are you and I going to do?

00:22:56.680 We're going to adjust.

00:22:57.240 We're going to do something different.

00:22:58.800 We're going to quickly talk.

00:23:00.260 I'm not going to keep, you know what?

00:23:01.840 Let's wait until Monday. 0.98

00:23:03.620 We'll watch the game tape and then we'll figure out what's going on because this sucks. 0.69

00:23:07.460 Oh, yo, why don't we wait until the end of the quarter? 0.83

00:23:10.040 And then if you haven't won yet, you'll fire me or something like that.

00:23:12.580 No, you immediately talk to each other.

00:23:14.740 So that's one.

00:23:15.660 The second thing is we need to pool our resources.

00:23:19.460 So instead, if I have four people making, let's say, outbound calls or emails or discovery calls,

00:23:24.960 who are all learning at their own pace at their own time by the time i vetted if something works

00:23:30.160 or doesn't work four people have to go through the process if i say hey folks uh marianne can 1.00

00:23:35.660 you start on the focus can you can you work on give me over the next week can we figure out what

00:23:39.980 really works as a great opening and during discovery call can you do this and person why

00:23:44.420 can you focus on the demo and then we have best practices we're actually starting to work together

00:23:49.120 as a team there's a reason why this is not happening why is that it's called individual

00:23:54.800 contributor the history of sales has been individual contribute individual contributor

00:24:00.240 yeah i remember you know people didn't share didn't share no because they don't want you to

00:24:05.440 beat my commit like i want to win i don't want you to knock on the same doors that i do and have a

00:24:09.520 better pitch than i have making more money on these real estate sales and so on and so forth

00:24:13.920 And so we're never sharing.

00:24:15.340 Today, we need to be sharing.

00:24:17.540 On top of that, the new generations of sales

00:24:20.340 are eager to share with each other.

00:24:22.040 More collaborative.

00:24:22.840 More collaborative.

00:24:23.580 But we don't have the systems in place,

00:24:24.840 the processes in place to do so.

00:24:26.840 And we go like, well, why don't you go in that corner?

00:24:28.640 Yeah, you go to that corner, and then we'll see who performs.

00:24:30.640 And throw stuff over the wall.

00:24:31.860 Exactly.

00:24:32.600 Is that, would you say, the biggest difference

00:24:34.560 between your approach and other sales training?

00:24:38.120 I think our biggest approach is that we're looking at it

00:24:40.320 from a very modern approach.

00:24:41.820 we are willing to forego any existing you know like open door and go like no no no that's not

00:24:46.940 the case yeah let's try something different yeah let's try something different it ain't working

00:24:50.860 um we call it work smarter instead of harder um i do not know exactly your birth year give

00:24:56.780 or take 79 79 i'm 70. i was raised then in a world that my parents thought that everything

00:25:05.900 could be solved by working harder i'm as blue collar as blue collar can be my dad i mean like

00:25:10.220 like it's hard work i went to boxing my coach thought everything could be solved by doing more

00:25:15.580 push-ups more sit-ups and so on right then i went i went to chess actually before that and it was

00:25:20.460 like play more games become more better better time playing time playing now essentially you know

00:25:26.220 humble i was not humble bragging coming what a break bragging becoming no humble break

00:25:33.100 The full on brag.

00:25:34.600 Full on brag.

00:25:35.740 When I met a coach called Pete Kane,

00:25:38.740 he, in a period of 18 months, was able to get me

00:25:41.200 at the World Championships Triathlon.

00:25:44.840 And it is throwing out of the door

00:25:46.660 that working hard actually gets you there.

00:25:48.760 In running, running more miles won't make you faster.

00:25:52.780 I'm proof of that.

00:25:54.580 You need to do hill repeats.

00:25:56.140 You need to do interval training, right?

00:25:58.980 Oh, trust me. 0.88

00:25:59.780 We went and started running a hill and was like, that sucks. 0.98

00:26:02.000 That sucks, yeah. 0.92

00:26:02.980 I'd rather go run 5K. 0.98

00:26:04.560 And so you're taught that you need to work smarter, not harder.

00:26:09.180 And so what we see, the current generation,

00:26:11.740 from the very reason that they come out of school

00:26:14.720 and the year they came out of school,

00:26:16.040 they're taught on working harder.

00:26:17.900 It's not like study more, know where to find the information.

00:26:21.560 My daughter was telling me the other day, she's 14-year-old,

00:26:23.940 that they actually are given the test results already

00:26:27.200 for the test of the school.

00:26:28.760 It's not about knowing the test results.

00:26:30.300 it's knowing do you do you know how to get there and so what we see today is that we have the

00:26:36.420 problem for the time being that two generations are biting each other most managers most not all

00:26:43.180 of them are people that were raised in the world of working harder their mindset make more phone

00:26:48.580 calls write more emails have more discovery calls win more business and then we have them teaching

00:26:53.580 that to a generation who was were was taught on working smarter and those two cultures are biting 1.00

00:26:58.260 each other and there's a movie called buck there's a movie called buck there's a you know like a

00:27:02.820 horse whisperer and they ask the horse whisperer you know like what is the problem with you know

00:27:07.220 like you and you know like why are you able to do this to do this and he says because i realize

00:27:13.620 that most of the time or you know when when owners of horses come in they bring me in

00:27:18.260 because they say they have a problem with the horse after a while i realize it's not the horse

00:27:23.620 who's the problem it's the owner and so he says most of the time it's the owner doesn't take care

00:27:28.020 of the horse properly doesn't feed and so on same here with the younger organizations most of the

00:27:33.620 time it ain't the people who are the problem it's the lack of processes that the organization was

00:27:38.740 willing to implement that's the cause of the disruption on that token um you know i recently

00:27:45.540 heard that i think it was steward at slack saster he said um you know at a their lower smb type

00:27:51.300 sales people they're not quota carrying members are you seeing this as a trend absolutely because

00:27:56.500 like if it's process and it's training sounds like customer support sounds like engineering like i

00:28:02.500 will only drop one f-bomb okay you drop it absolutely i look if everybody was so motivated

00:28:10.180 by money shouldn't we hit more quota all over the place because we're so motivated by money

00:28:15.380 okay so that's one second thing is do you ever see on instagram people bragging about

00:28:20.900 how big their bank account is rolling his tax of money right you don't 20 years ago vince murdica

00:28:26.980 closed a massive deal for me at that point in time i would now be working for him by the way but you

00:28:31.220 know like vince closed a massive deal with disney he cashed a check bought one of the first laxus

00:28:37.700 school car we all went to the parking lot and we celebrated vince look at the pre you know we took

00:28:42.420 rise in the lexus it was a celebration the demonstration of you being wealthy because of

00:28:47.700 of the great success you had was accepted.

00:28:49.740 No, was revered in the sales culture.

00:28:52.260 The watches, everything, you know,

00:28:54.720 Flamingo, Glen Ross, ABC.

00:28:56.880 Dude, today, you demonstrating wealth

00:29:00.600 is not considered good.

00:29:01.500 That is not cool.

00:29:02.920 So we know that this whole thing is falling on its sword.

00:29:06.180 The second thing that I know, if I'm going to hire you.

00:29:08.820 So do you think that's a cultural change?

00:29:10.900 Wow, I never thought of it that way.

00:29:12.360 I just thought it was the products

00:29:13.500 were getting easier to buy or sell.

00:29:15.240 No, it's a little bit of everything.

00:29:17.460 But that's definitely one of them.

00:29:19.180 Like, if you are young in your first, second, third job,

00:29:22.280 which what we've seen is, we've seen that SaaS,

00:29:25.080 because of the way it's priced, can no longer afford

00:29:27.860 a $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 ACV and below,

00:29:30.460 cannot afford a $250,000 to $500,000 enterprise account

00:29:34.800 executive.

00:29:35.300 It's not affordable.

00:29:36.840 The cac is too high.

00:29:38.100 So we need to go two, three age brackets below

00:29:40.280 to the age bracket 25, 30 as the form of the senior executive.

00:29:44.420 In that bracket, most likely people

00:29:46.760 don't have mortgages, and all these debt are hanging over them.

00:29:49.580 Do you remember the term, hire a salesperson who

00:29:53.480 needs to kill to eat? 0.54

00:29:54.620 Yep. 0.97

00:29:55.280 And that meant you hire a person who's hungry.

00:29:58.460 Driven, obsessed.

00:29:59.720 Incredible amount of debt.

00:30:01.220 Yeah.

00:30:01.820 They would sell anything to anyone to get the debt paid off.

00:30:04.760 Well, in SaaS, that would be disastrous.

00:30:07.100 That would be a churn machine. 0.84

00:30:09.140 They'd be over-promising, over, yeah, selling the moon.

00:30:11.900 What do you need to hear?

00:30:13.200 Yeah, we can do that.

00:30:14.000 Oh, yes, of course we can do that.

00:30:15.620 We'll give you a bunch of free services,

00:30:16.940 professional services, and then you get all these.

00:30:18.980 Oh, this is going to be your customer success nightmare,

00:30:21.360 right?

00:30:21.860 OK.

00:30:22.520 And so what we see is that all those things have changed.

00:30:24.980 Now, these are like cultural notions.

00:30:28.040 That doesn't mean that that's all of the fundamentals.

00:30:30.800 What do young people want? 0.99

00:30:33.680 Younger people, first, second jobbers, want a career. 0.75

00:30:36.540 They not only want to learn about how to sell.

00:30:38.340 They want to learn about the market that they're selling

00:30:39.920 into.

00:30:40.420 They want to learn about becoming a manager, an executive.

00:30:43.240 Like, coach them on those things.

00:30:44.860 They don't need just sales training

00:30:46.240 so you can make more money.

00:30:47.860 Coach them on what they need to have a broader.

00:30:49.900 Life skills.

00:30:50.980 We see this, for example, at Adobe.

00:30:53.800 Adobe is a great place to go to have an academy for that,

00:30:56.620 which allows you to learn multiple skills.

00:30:59.840 It is no surprise if you see at the con ongoing success

00:31:02.460 at Adobe.

00:31:02.980 It's no surprise to me.

00:31:03.900 Because they invest in their people.

00:31:04.860 They invest in their people.

00:31:06.760 And I think that in the future, and when I mean in the future,

00:31:10.220 I hope next year, but let's say three to four years,

00:31:12.880 Those companies that can educate their people

00:31:15.640 will ultimately use it as a competitive differentiator

00:31:19.120 to get the greatest people.

00:31:21.200 And it'll be more process-driven, less star-driven,

00:31:24.380 which is happening already.

00:31:25.720 And they're not really looking to line their pockets

00:31:28.420 with big paydays from closing deals.

00:31:30.880 They just want to serve the customer.

00:31:32.140 And it's more of an empathetic, am I learning?

00:31:35.800 It's almost like a validation feedback loop of,

00:31:38.140 do I really know my stuff?

00:31:39.940 Because if people are buying because I've helped them

00:31:41.960 the right decision i feel confident that this academy is teaching me stuff look now let me

00:31:47.000 tell you let's go into some hot water let's go into stuff yeah okay so in this process marketing

00:31:55.000 sales on board as customer success account manager who gets who generally gets paid the most money

00:31:59.960 sales sales okay now is there a reason why yeah i mean okay i'm following you on this okay now i've

00:32:07.080 i came into this job as an engineer as i said to you now and as an engineer i had 11 years of

00:32:11.320 education on my particular field of expertise and as i you know started deploying that i noticed

00:32:16.360 when i became into sales that suddenly i made a lot more money without having any credentials i'm

00:32:21.080 going like well why is that why and at that point in time it was taught to me what what is the

00:32:27.080 distance to the river is money is like a river that flows to the company the further you are

00:32:32.840 away from that river the less you make sales people are pretty close to the river of money

00:32:39.880 And therefore, when they take a bucket out of money,

00:32:41.580 aka commissions, they were making more money.

00:32:43.960 Sometimes 2x to 3x of what other people in equally productive

00:32:48.760 roles were doing.

00:32:50.420 And so I'm going like, OK, well, at least I

00:32:53.000 can calculate the distance to the river

00:32:54.860 and come up with some thought about how much money I make.

00:32:57.260 And obviously, in the years following,

00:32:58.500 I learned how to make lots of money.

00:33:00.140 Get closer to the river.

00:33:01.240 Closer to the river.

00:33:02.000 Be close.

00:33:02.640 Yeah, sales engineer.

00:33:03.540 Swim in it if you can, right?

00:33:06.140 So today, the revenue and recurring revenue stream

00:33:10.520 ain't coming from the close, right?

00:33:12.020 Most of the money doesn't come from the close.

00:33:13.640 When is the most revenue being made?

00:33:15.280 From the back end.

00:33:16.280 By whom?

00:33:17.020 The customer success people.

00:33:18.160 Oh my gosh.

00:33:19.480 So they're closer to the river.

00:33:20.980 But they're not getting, in today's model.

00:33:24.120 OK, now I'll throw this one at you.

00:33:27.320 Would it happen, would it have to do anything to do with,

00:33:30.540 potentially, that there's a gender difference

00:33:32.260 for the people who are in customer success?

00:33:34.940 what is it why is it that the people i said that the other day in a company this was people taking

00:33:41.020 care of the customer people taking care of the customer responsibility for the revenue

00:33:44.620 nine million dollars in recurring revenue stream average pay 110 000 okay salesperson winning

00:33:51.020 deals average pay 180 000 revenue that they generate per year five six hundred at most right

00:33:57.740 yeah and i go like well but they're generating it and therefore i'm like dude a customer success

00:34:02.460 person with a great experience can create more leads than just a salesperson referrals and so

00:34:07.820 on so i am up for that debate different skills as i get it here's what i'm not talking about

00:34:13.740 i'm not saying we should pay one more or less i just say pay them equal everybody has an equal

00:34:20.140 role to play but to start singling out and then putting people on president's clubs as if they're

00:34:25.420 like you know like there's one special i'm like no don't you think that everybody was involved

00:34:30.300 in closing this deal you'd really thought that that one person was magic so it's also a byproduct of

00:34:34.620 just the way software or sas is bought because it is you know it's the back end it's like the

00:34:39.420 upfront yeah you get the customer but if we can service account if we can upsell if we can cross

00:34:43.260 sell that's where the real um revenue is going to come from so it's the models change the culture is

00:34:49.100 changing the the sales process is more process driven than star driven these are big ideas

00:34:56.380 and these in generally are becoming rightly available right now because data becomes available

00:35:00.540 so now i can see not only see which salesperson has a better conversion rate or shorter sales

00:35:06.220 cycle if i have a shorter sales sales cycle and i have a really good conversion rate we may say

00:35:11.020 oh that person we should not fire however if i now connect that to the churn matrix retention yeah

00:35:16.300 i go like oh my gosh actually that was not good and that other person they had a short cycle

00:35:20.700 because they were selling the moon and then bingo they're turning after six months when they didn't

00:35:24.860 deliver and so now i can see that jennifer who was taking a little bit more time educating the 1.00

00:35:28.940 customer was a little bit more thoughtful on us that the customer may have had like like 20

00:35:33.660 longer seal cycle but oh my gosh not only sticking five six seven x more exactly and we know that

00:35:39.980 the compound impact of that in the future can be even bigger and as we are extending our metrics

00:35:45.420 into the future built the trust of the customer trust the customer that's huge yeah um jaco you've

00:35:51.260 You've been building Winning by Design

00:35:53.260 and obviously contributing to the knowledge in the sales

00:35:56.080 space for a lot of SaaS founders.

00:35:57.500 A lot of us owe a lot to what you've taught.

00:36:01.200 Over the last decade, who have you

00:36:03.560 needed to become to run the organization that you run today

00:36:07.980 and to lead?

00:36:09.540 What are some of the areas that you look inwardly

00:36:12.620 to continue to develop?

00:36:14.920 Yeah, so for me, I didn't start to become a CEO of a company.

00:36:20.380 And so right now we're, you know, like anywhere between 50 and 70 people.

00:36:24.420 And so, you know, like I find that, you know, like it is what you need to do as a leader of a company.

00:36:32.340 You need to remember what is what your true core is.

00:36:36.460 And so the true core is that I drink Red Bull.

00:36:40.620 That's core purpose, man.

00:36:41.900 It's core purpose.

00:36:42.540 And I'm energy.

00:36:43.480 I could load up this Red Bull can with water and say, like, well, I shouldn't drink Red Bull.

00:36:48.260 and I'm starting drinking Red Bull because I'm on brand.

00:36:51.240 Well, there's a glass of water next to me.

00:36:52.860 No, the truth to the core is I drink Red Bull

00:36:54.920 and I drink one Red Bull a day.

00:36:56.100 And every now and then when I drink water

00:36:57.320 in order to compliment that,

00:36:58.260 everybody can see I'm drinking water.

00:37:00.000 That's reality.

00:37:00.980 I cannot fake it.

00:37:02.240 That is what I see people do.

00:37:04.240 They're faking what sometimes,

00:37:06.040 they still want to be that kind of company,

00:37:07.980 but they're no longer that kind of company.

00:37:09.580 I've morphed onto something that they're not

00:37:11.780 just because it sells better.

00:37:13.520 I'll give you an example.

00:37:15.320 And I only say that,

00:37:16.280 I truly only say that on this broadcast

00:37:17.880 just because i brought it up one of our team members is very involved with creating a culture

00:37:24.840 where women are equally in executive position and so on we've never spoken about that in any

00:37:32.520 conference we have well over 50 i think 54 55 of our organization is is female yeah now if i go

00:37:42.040 about that and make this the point of this particular podcast it doesn't serve anyone i i feel

00:37:47.720 like i'm using it to promote oh my god yeah we care about this we care about this if you care

00:37:54.200 about it then do something about it if you don't care about it don't say anything about you know

00:37:57.800 like and like i i feel very strongly about it like i said this is the only exception look up

00:38:03.880 on all my podcasts we never talk about how we are ourselves diverse if somebody needs to go

00:38:08.680 up and speak about it how diverse you are do something about it i really believe in doing

00:38:13.400 something about it way more than talking about it yeah and what you're saying is that for you you

00:38:18.840 believe the more you've leaned into just honoring who you are versus trying to be something because

00:38:24.840 it's going to help you in a certain way it just doesn't work we just want to have the best people

00:38:29.160 work for our company i don't care a hood about where they come from or anything else yeah like

00:38:34.760 any form of culture yeah i don't you know like you know what i care about you know what i find more

00:38:40.120 i like working with kind people i like working with people if there's a conflict they say oh

00:38:45.080 let's figure this out together i like work you know like i you know like do i discriminate on

00:38:49.640 kindness i'm more less and less like people you know like when there's a conflict dropping an f-bomb

00:38:56.280 i'm okay every now and then it's part of being a human being it's an emotion but you know like you

00:39:00.920 You know what I'm talking about.

00:39:02.040 Sometimes these people are like, I'm like, no, no, I don't.

00:39:04.200 Empathy.

00:39:04.540 Yeah, empathy.

00:39:05.400 Let's figure this out together.

00:39:06.980 Kindness to me is something that is becoming really,

00:39:09.700 really meaningful in order to build a productive company.

00:39:12.700 Enduring.

00:39:13.320 Enduring company.

00:39:14.040 Thank you.

00:39:14.220 That's cool.

00:39:14.940 Where can people find you online?

00:39:18.000 Because I know you just dropped a bunch of books.

00:39:20.620 Is that newish?

00:39:21.720 No, no, no.

00:39:22.240 So, well, no, no.

00:39:24.040 You've been working on that for a while?

00:39:25.280 Yeah.

00:39:25.620 OK.

00:39:26.240 Yeah.

00:39:26.480 But, you know, like we launch about a book every like 60,

00:39:29.280 Yeah, like I remember I just bought like three of them.

00:39:31.700 I feel like there was a whole selling by designer.

00:39:34.320 Yeah, there's a whole series.

00:39:35.240 We have seven books, but they've been published over the years.

00:39:38.340 But what I'm really proud of, and for me

00:39:41.220 is really has come with some friction inside the company,

00:39:45.480 is we started to publish core principles of sales

00:39:50.340 that we previously would sell at the premium price.

00:39:53.040 We started to publish it on YouTube.

00:39:54.840 Well, not for free, but yeah, it's free.

00:39:56.340 And these are the diagram videos.

00:39:57.660 The diagrams, the blackboard sessions.

00:39:59.160 Yeah, the blackboard sessions.

00:40:00.000 So we literally start publishing.

00:40:01.340 We have over 100 videos right now, training,

00:40:03.680 you know, like things that we do.

00:40:05.940 I believe that when a company like an Adobe is one

00:40:08.740 of our customers, they're not going to go like, you know what?

00:40:10.840 Let's go watch those videos.

00:40:11.980 We're going to go watch those videos.

00:40:12.900 We don't need to hire these guys.

00:40:14.200 Exactly.

00:40:14.700 It's all free on the internet.

00:40:16.200 Exactly.

00:40:17.220 People don't buy from a company like ours

00:40:20.200 in order for just the content.

00:40:22.400 They buy us for the help that comes associated with it.

00:40:24.420 The accountability.

00:40:25.180 The accountability, but also bringing the team

00:40:27.240 together and so on so we published all the content on youtube we published the books on amazon and

00:40:34.460 then we published all the designs on lucid chart and i believe that anybody who's willing to go

00:40:40.220 through the depth of putting them together themselves like a kid you earned it there's

00:40:44.820 no need for me to go charge you a couple of hundred dollars for a training session so go do it

00:40:49.840 yeah it's all there make it there and i really believe that moving forward we i hope that at

00:40:55.240 one point in time that that you know like that there's enough today it is super me and i'm not

00:41:01.460 saying that because i'm on the broadcast you can see sometimes the tears in my eye it's really

00:41:05.020 meaningful to me when somebody comes to me says like hey you really helped me with this this and

00:41:09.120 this and look at the designs i'm creating like dude that's real stuff you help the person and

00:41:14.860 you know like and this is the reason you know like i said it's uh to dan early on who's you see a lot

00:41:19.560 of these videos is that look remember those videos will be seen by your grandchildren don't forget

00:41:27.480 what it says about you when you shoot them be honest be sincere be upfront and stuff like that

00:41:33.120 look it's really known that there's a few people in our industry who drop a lot of f-bombs

00:41:37.800 okay i want to know how that translates to 20 years from now when my great-grandchildren see

00:41:42.200 that yeah how are they going to feel i'm not against a single f-bomb with an emotion that

00:41:45.980 points to a particular point in the conversation yeah they're used i just cannot deal with their

00:41:52.300 thoughts that i'm teaching other people to also start dropping f-bombs in order to also think that

00:41:56.800 that is normal i like look the world is a tough place these days i'm a speaker and i have an

00:42:01.880 audience you have followers on podcast we can make this world a better place by doing a better thing

00:42:07.400 being more kind and being kind to each other is a form of the language that we use and in this

00:42:12.080 process i want to educate them about sales and sharing the passion dan this is the one of the

00:42:17.440 most beautiful jobs that we have in the world yeah and it's accessible to anyone universal degree

00:42:24.620 optional introverts everybody everyone but i'm not gonna you know i do not like if it's always

00:42:31.280 everybody closing twist their arm make something happen it's some secret wushu move or something

00:42:35.340 like that yeah look learn how to communicate with another human being ask good questions ask good

00:42:39.600 questions be kind if they have an issue for customer success be empathetic go the extra mile

00:42:44.880 because it's not crowded go the extra mile because it's not crowded i don't mind working hard it's a

00:42:49.520 skill that i have i think that it still matters but i'm equally convincible that working smart

00:42:55.200 could provide an equal benefit that's awesome youtube appreciate you man thanks so much thanks

00:43:00.080 for watching this episode of escape velocity be sure to like and subscribe and leave a comment

00:43:05.840 with your biggest insight from our conversation.

00:43:08.560 Be sure to check out the next episode.

Dan Martell - September 10, 2020

The Future of Sales Is No Quota with Jacco @ WinningByDesign.com - Escape Velocity Show #36

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