Dan Martell - Upgrade Your SaaS Company's Customer Support with Dave @ UseProof.com - Escape Velocity Show #1

00:00:00.000 Used to have like customer support be, you know, three people, you know, try to make it as cheap as possible.

00:00:04.780 Yeah, how many tickets do they close?

00:00:06.720 Now, the entire team does customer support.

00:00:09.480 All of our engineers, all the co-founders, everyone does customer support.

00:00:13.120 We do these customer support power hours, what we call them.

00:00:15.200 So it's about one to two hours once a week, get together with like five people,

00:00:18.840 and you all just like hammer away and like support customers and share information, share learnings.

00:00:22.840 And that's been huge for us.

00:00:24.380 Admission sequence start.

00:00:26.320 Three, two, one.

00:00:30.000 Hey, we are live, man.

00:00:39.000 How's it going?

00:00:39.600 Going well.

00:00:40.200 Good to be here.

00:00:41.220 Proof launched at TNC.

00:00:43.520 We're at TNC two years ago.

00:00:45.360 Two years ago, to the day.

00:00:47.080 We're talking launch, scale, YC, fundraise, two years.

00:00:53.820 It's been a crazy couple of years.

00:00:55.000 Dude, that's amazing.

00:00:56.300 And how big is the team now?

00:00:57.720 We have 16 right now.

00:00:58.860 Yeah.

00:00:59.640 15 in all, full time in Austin.

00:01:01.380 One guy in the Philippines holding down

00:01:02.900 the nighttime support for us.

00:01:04.180 That's good, man, to get that full support.

00:01:07.360 What's been the hardest thing so far?

00:01:09.400 And I know there's always going to be bigger challenges.

00:01:11.280 I know you guys are working on a product suite.

00:01:13.800 But minus just trying to get the product

00:01:17.940 to have bigger impact, et cetera, what's

00:01:20.880 been the hardest part so far?

00:01:22.920 I think the first year we had proof was incredibly easy.

00:01:26.800 It was like every day we're growing, $1,000 MRR added,

00:01:31.540 $3,000 MRR added every day.

00:01:32.560 Was that because you had a built-in customer base, though?

00:01:36.640 Do you feel like in the early days,

00:01:38.320 if you've done marketing or are known to some degree,

00:01:42.820 it's like pulling the low-hanging fruit.

00:01:46.040 Totally helps.

00:01:46.540 And it's almost sometimes a false sense of what's possible.

00:01:49.960 And then that goes away.

00:01:51.440 I know that's true for Facebook ads all the time.

00:01:53.200 You started Facebook, it's like crushing it,

00:01:55.140 And then all of a sudden, the return on ad spend goes down

00:01:57.800 because you kind of sucked all the early opportunity out.

00:02:02.240 So that was the way you kicked off.

00:02:05.400 And then how did that?

00:02:06.760 Yeah, so we launched with a webinar to our list

00:02:09.460 and sold a bunch of prepaid yearly plans from that.

00:02:13.700 Then I think it was just the right product at the right time.

00:02:16.040 Yeah, we pre-sold before the product was built.

00:02:17.520 How much did you sell pre-sell?

00:02:18.780 A year for $9.97.

00:02:21.700 I think I just watched Ryan Levesque's webinar.

00:02:24.640 And it was just like, all right, I'm going to do that.

00:02:25.940 On the Founders Circle?

00:02:26.640 Hisbucket.io?

00:02:27.640 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:02:28.220 Dude, that's what I worked with him on.

00:02:29.520 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:02:30.760 But did you launch after his?

00:02:35.460 I think we were after him.

00:02:36.580 Man, I feel like it must have been pretty, yeah.

00:02:38.400 I think it was like five months after him,

00:02:40.200 maybe, that we did that.

00:02:41.560 But yeah, the product wasn't built yet,

00:02:42.920 so we pre-sell it, $9.97.

00:02:45.120 And then I tell them on the webinar, but it's not ready yet.

00:02:48.360 Yeah, because they were all hyped up.

00:02:49.800 Oh, you actually got to the point on the webinar

00:02:51.380 where they're like, yeah.

00:02:52.120 Oh, dude, we were hyped.

00:02:53.040 Take my credit card.

00:02:53.880 Take my credit card.

00:02:54.800 I'm like, this is my game.

00:02:56.260 Oh, totally.

00:02:56.960 Oh, yeah, case study.

00:02:58.020 So they're like, oh, this thing's ready to rock.

00:02:59.600 Yeah, because I just use it with a couple of friends.

00:03:01.600 That's where it kind of helps to be in the market, too.

00:03:03.040 Because I just called up my buddy.

00:03:04.100 He's like, hey, you're running a webinar.

00:03:04.980 Can I install this thing on your site for you

00:03:06.840 and see if it works?

00:03:07.660 And so I've got three or four things versus working.

00:03:10.120 And I was like, but it's not going to be ready for two months.

00:03:12.660 And you've got to pay today.

00:03:14.460 Ended up having like 40 people.

00:03:15.420 I love $997, so that's good.

00:03:16.920 Good price point.

00:03:17.720 And you pre-sold how much?

00:03:19.660 I think we got about 40 people in.

00:03:20.920 OK, so 40,000.

00:03:22.140 40K comes in, which was awesome.

00:03:24.580 Allowed us to just focus on that product, validated it.

00:03:27.480 And did you already have a developer lined up?

00:03:29.660 So we had my co-founder, JP, is a developer.

00:03:31.980 And he had an MVP.

00:03:33.640 Yeah.

00:03:34.140 And then we had one other guy that we hired through TopTel

00:03:37.760 that was working on it with us.

00:03:39.320 So pretty much anybody that's seen some notification

00:03:43.620 on a browser about a subscriber, a purchase, et cetera,

00:03:47.660 that's proof.

00:03:48.420 That was the big thing.

00:03:50.180 And you saw it because you guys were

00:03:51.800 doing your own marketing funnels

00:03:54.160 and added that as kind of an idea,

00:03:56.300 and it just all of a sudden increased conversions.

00:03:58.400 Yeah, we saw it like Airbnb using live social proof.

00:04:01.600 I saw it on bookings.com.

00:04:02.600 Bookings.com, yeah.

00:04:03.300 That's the first place I saw it.

00:04:03.800 That was the first time I saw it, yeah.

00:04:05.140 And I was talking with an investor that was on their board,

00:04:07.460 and he said that they actually created it.

00:04:09.360 In 2002, they kind of were the first people to do that.

00:04:11.720 Wow.

00:04:12.220 Just internally, I thought it was pretty cool.

00:04:14.120 I saw it on there, and it worked for me.

00:04:15.780 And I was like, we need this for our funnel, for our order

00:04:17.800 And so we, in one week, kind of built a little MVP,

00:04:20.260 put it on there.

00:04:21.760 We're like, we hope this works.

00:04:22.840 We don't know if it will.

00:04:24.040 And we saw our order form conversion rate

00:04:25.720 go from 19% to 42%.

00:04:27.760 Dude.

00:04:28.260 We were like, that's crazy.

00:04:29.920 Like, I wonder if this will work on other people.

00:04:31.800 So we kind of rolled it out.

00:04:32.800 The whole time, we were just.

00:04:33.800 Did people ask, is that how you knew you had something?

00:04:35.420 Like, were they seeing it and going, yo, guys, what is this?

00:04:38.920 It wasn't so much that, we just, our friends tried it out.

00:04:42.220 And they all had great conversion rates from that.

00:04:44.800 And that's when we were like, OK, this

00:04:46.360 This isn't just for us to like sling courses a little faster.

00:04:49.300 It was like, maybe this is the product.

00:04:50.800 And so we were you always software curious?

00:04:53.300 That's the word I use.

00:04:54.160 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:04:55.060 So that was like back in the day through the foundation,

00:04:57.660 like Dane Maxx on those guys, like five years.

00:04:59.360 That's how I got my start.

00:05:00.560 And what was the idea then?

00:05:02.120 What was the?

00:05:02.720 It was a fraternity recruitment software

00:05:04.800 called Redwood Recruiting, which was just horrible.

00:05:07.600 I spent like $11,000 and all my money on Upwork,

00:05:10.960 getting this thing built out, opened up the doors.

00:05:13.520 Nothing.

00:05:14.120 Crickets.

00:05:14.560 Nothing.

00:05:15.060 I just didn't know anything.

00:05:17.740 I just was not the right person.

00:05:19.440 But you learn how to get stuff built.

00:05:23.760 You learn how to think of product and, obviously,

00:05:27.000 solving problems.

00:05:27.820 Yeah.

00:05:28.620 I learned a lot more with that $11,000 education

00:05:31.060 than $40,000 a college.

00:05:33.360 It was a pretty cheap education, honestly.

00:05:35.420 So what was the hard part?

00:05:36.240 Sorry, I can go off on different tangents.

00:05:38.560 What was the hardest part so far?

00:05:40.260 I mean, you launched that.

00:05:40.880 Yeah, so year one, awesome.

00:05:42.120 We're growing.

00:05:42.820 I'm confident.

00:05:44.440 I think I'm the best CEO in the world.

00:05:46.600 Then things start to slow down a little bit.

00:05:48.760 We can't quite tackle churn.

00:05:49.840 Is this post-YC?

00:05:51.060 This was like right around when we got into YC.

00:05:53.860 OK.

00:05:54.440 Just like churn, we had high churn problems.

00:05:57.400 High was, what, 18%, 12%?

00:05:59.440 At one point, yeah, it was like 18%.

00:06:03.320 We've more than cut that in half.

00:06:04.660 Every six months, you lose all your customers.

00:06:06.200 Yeah, we've more than cut that in half, but it's still not.

00:06:08.080 It's still high.

00:06:08.820 It's still not where we need it to be.

00:06:10.740 So I think it's just been this like, we've placed these bets.

00:06:13.880 Said, OK, we think this is going to help fix that.

00:06:16.120 Knocks down a little bit, but not enough.

00:06:17.560 We think this is going to fix that, not enough.

00:06:19.320 And it's like, just enough bets in a row

00:06:21.640 haven't gone exactly how we've wanted to.

00:06:24.120 And that's hard, because it's like,

00:06:25.380 we feel like we're smart guys.

00:06:26.500 We're talking to customers.

00:06:27.260 We're trying to do all the right things,

00:06:28.760 but still not getting it enough.

00:06:31.120 Not getting enough.

00:06:32.440 I think that's been what the sleepless nights have been,

00:06:35.000 is laying in bed thinking, what do we need to do?

00:06:38.460 That's not working right now.

00:06:40.060 This is, to me, is why I think tech entrepreneurship

00:06:43.140 is so tough because it really is two things that

00:06:46.560 need to be figured out.

00:06:47.340 Like if I open up a sushi restaurant,

00:06:48.540 I can assume people are going to eat sushi

00:06:50.040 if there's other sushi restaurants.

00:06:51.060 But if you're building innovation,

00:06:52.560 not only is the, do people really

00:06:54.920 want this problem solved, but then it's like,

00:06:57.300 do they want it solved the way you're solving it, right?

00:07:00.840 And even in that kind of then the overlap,

00:07:06.360 are they going to stick around economically to allow you

00:07:08.600 to build the business you need?

00:07:09.680 Because if they're churning or if they're not

00:07:12.540 investing at the level you need to actually build the business.

00:07:15.400 It's frustrating.

00:07:16.200 Have you felt the pressure of being a YC back company

00:07:19.020 to grow, like if you didn't.

00:07:20.820 So people always ask, what's the difference

00:07:23.280 with raising money or not?

00:07:24.520 I've shared my thoughts on it.

00:07:25.680 But do you feel that because you've decided to do that,

00:07:29.020 there is this expectation of grow?

00:07:32.760 Like, you know what I mean?

00:07:33.900 Yeah, yeah.

00:07:34.900 I don't think we really feel that.

00:07:36.100 We don't feel that from investors.

00:07:37.460 We raise the seed round.

00:07:38.460 It's pretty like hands off.

00:07:40.140 I've got a few investors I'm kind of chatting with.

00:07:41.940 But no one really is pressuring me there.

00:07:43.320 No, they're going to give you time to figure it out.

00:07:44.980 Maybe some internal pressure of just, we want to build.

00:07:48.360 We know the companies we look at.

00:07:50.000 And we say, we really want to figure that out.

00:07:52.120 How do we do that?

00:07:52.740 So maybe some of that.

00:07:53.520 But I haven't felt outside pressure, really,

00:07:57.260 while I'm doing this.

00:07:57.960 What are some of the highs you've had so far

00:07:59.820 about building the business?

00:08:00.820 When you look back the last two years,

00:08:02.100 what are those proudest moments?

00:08:03.500 Yeah.

00:08:04.120 I mean, was Demo Day a big deal?

00:08:06.840 Demo Day was awesome.

00:08:07.440 That's cool, man.

00:08:08.220 Yeah, yeah, Demo Day was awesome.

00:08:09.500 And the week after you pitch at YC,

00:08:11.380 We raised like $2 million in a week, like all inbound.

00:08:14.920 Like, my kind of makes it really easy.

00:08:16.140 But I mean, I don't know.

00:08:17.000 Like, I'm just, I'll never forget.

00:08:18.940 I'm a small town, Eastern Canadian guy,

00:08:22.000 and show up in San Francisco.

00:08:23.420 And I think it was in the first few weeks,

00:08:25.100 there was a demo day.

00:08:26.460 And in line, and I stand next to Michael Arrington

00:08:29.200 from TechCrunch, and he asked me what I did.

00:08:31.240 And I was just in, like, shock.

00:08:33.160 That's awesome.

00:08:34.020 Yeah, so I just, you know, you're from Maryland.

00:08:35.920 Like, I mean, and tried doing a startup,

00:08:38.260 you know, through Dane stuff.

00:08:39.880 And now all of a sudden, you're at YC Demo Day,

00:08:42.040 which is the harbored of accelerators.

00:08:45.400 It was exciting.

00:08:46.140 I think it helped us realize we can play on the level

00:08:49.180 with anybody.

00:08:50.500 I think that's probably the biggest lesson

00:08:52.300 of being around that talent, is just not feeling like there's.

00:08:56.140 I always assumed that there was, I never went to university

00:08:59.560 or don't feel like I have any special brilliance.

00:09:03.760 And I always thought, literally, these people are probably

00:09:06.220 like geniuses, you know what I mean?

00:09:07.900 And then you meet them, and you're like, oh,

00:09:09.120 they're really creative and smart, but there's nothing unique.

00:09:12.180 How much of that, because you've met these founders,

00:09:14.740 do you think is product timing, not luck,

00:09:19.740 but just they're in the market versus just pure brilliance?

00:09:23.240 Because like you said, people can do the things you know to do,

00:09:26.500 and everybody will say you should do it.

00:09:28.800 But how much of that is that in regards

00:09:31.960 to the right process versus just you've got a good market

00:09:35.280 and you've got the timing right?

00:09:36.500 Yeah.

00:09:37.400 I mean, I think a lot of it is the right timing

00:09:40.280 and just some luck.

00:09:41.780 Just some like, you happen to have the right.

00:09:43.400 I think that was proof, honestly.

00:09:44.840 Just to the degree we got here, it's

00:09:46.220 like it was kind of like the right product that

00:09:47.960 was very viral at the right time.

00:09:50.000 And I kind of did the right thing.

00:09:51.440 I couldn't start some project management tool

00:09:56.300 and do the same thing.

00:09:57.000 That doesn't have the viral distribution of the pop-up

00:10:00.560 on our website.

00:10:01.140 And it was like, we were early to the market,

00:10:03.260 and so people hadn't seen this before.

00:10:04.760 So it was like all these forces together kind of like blew

00:10:07.140 up, that I couldn't have done, I couldn't launch Proof today

00:10:10.580 and do the same thing, because there'd

00:10:11.980 be these other competitors already in the market.

00:10:13.520 We'd be 50th.

00:10:15.880 I think a lot of the people at Y Combinator

00:10:17.580 are very, very intelligent, very book smart. 0.98

00:10:20.580 I think I was one of the probably on paper dumbest guys there.

00:10:24.680 But I also think I was one of the better entrepreneurs there. 0.95

00:10:28.200 Yeah, aggressive.

00:10:29.320 Yeah, I just knew how to do it.

00:10:30.960 I've been doing it.

00:10:31.620 A lot of people are just in Harvard,

00:10:33.360 and they're dropping out.

00:10:34.900 Many of them wouldn't do it if they

00:10:36.460 They didn't get the funding.

00:10:37.400 Yeah.

00:10:39.220 I have a bias towards a lot of accelerators

00:10:41.080 because I think they take people that are not risk takers.

00:10:43.740 And the market resets, or there's no funding.

00:10:46.440 They wouldn't have started the businesses in the first place.

00:10:49.160 And so much of it is just, can you show up every day,

00:10:53.140 forever, and keep coming back and sawing wood?

00:10:56.080 We're like, some of these people have already

00:10:57.960 quit their companies in the last year.

00:10:59.380 It's because it got hard.

00:11:00.220 It just got hard, and you couldn't figure it out.

00:11:01.460 And it's like, it's super hard for us.

00:11:03.240 I'm just like, back against the wall.

00:11:05.380 Like, I'm just going to do this.

00:11:06.380 doing this.

00:11:06.960 I know how to ride the roller coaster.

00:11:08.480 I know how to do that emotionally.

00:11:10.100 It still sucks, but I'm not going to not show up tomorrow.

00:11:12.620 What do you do to manage that emotional roller coaster

00:11:15.020 for yourself?

00:11:15.800 What are some of those rituals, habits, routines?

00:11:19.980 I'm not great at it.

00:11:21.200 Yeah?

00:11:21.700 At my worst, it's just Netflix.

00:11:23.540 You come home, throw in some headphones,

00:11:25.740 you're like, I'm just going to knock out.

00:11:27.020 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:11:27.860 It's almost like I can't do anything productive,

00:11:30.000 so I'd rather not do anything destructive.

00:11:32.040 Yeah, totally.

00:11:33.220 We all know that.

00:11:35.240 my team knows if I don't eat before our team meetings,

00:11:37.240 it's not a good spot.

00:11:38.620 Just even that level of the cadence of a day or whatever.

00:11:42.200 So when you get into kind of a bad headspace,

00:11:44.300 you just give yourself the permission to watch Netflix.

00:11:46.860 Sometimes.

00:11:47.720 I say a lot of it.

00:11:48.640 I got my two co-founders.

00:11:49.740 We're great friends.

00:11:50.500 Sometimes it's kind of like you got to step back

00:11:52.160 and kind of have the conversation.

00:11:53.900 It's almost like the parents.

00:11:54.800 It's like, we're just going to talk together

00:11:56.480 about how hard things are.

00:11:57.500 And that feels really good.

00:11:58.420 And there's a lot of support there. 0.99

00:11:59.480 And it's like, if you all kind of say this kind of sucks. 0.75

00:12:00.980 How long have you known your co-founder for?

00:12:02.620 So I got two co-founders, JP and Chris.

00:12:04.580 So we've been together for five years now.

00:12:06.380 OK, so even before our proof started.

00:12:07.800 Yes, we've run all of our companies from the beginning

00:12:09.820 together.

00:12:10.320 Got it.

00:12:10.820 And when you're down, are they ever up and vice versa?

00:12:13.500 It's almost always that.

00:12:14.480 It's almost always one person's down, two people are up,

00:12:17.780 two people are down, and one person's up.

00:12:19.100 It's never like all three down.

00:12:20.720 If you had to kind of crystallize

00:12:22.780 what's the value of a co-founder, what

00:12:24.580 would you say those things are?

00:12:26.480 And it doesn't mean you need one.

00:12:27.860 But if you did say, I need one.

00:12:30.300 I really like it.

00:12:32.340 And I just think there's something really special

00:12:34.200 in that relationship, kind of that brotherhood

00:12:36.780 that we kind of have.

00:12:37.680 But I think a lot of it's just support,

00:12:39.480 just be able to bounce ideas off each other

00:12:40.740 and be able to just be super honest and super real.

00:12:43.080 And we've grown a lot in our relationship

00:12:44.540 and just communicating very honestly with each other,

00:12:47.120 but in love.

00:12:47.880 And our families are growing closer together.

00:12:50.340 We're raising our kids together.

00:12:51.640 And there's just this whole, it's just

00:12:53.880 awesome being in a relationship with people.

00:12:55.640 And I think the co-founders, it's just

00:12:57.360 you've got each other's backs.

00:12:58.620 If one of them wasn't performing,

00:13:01.480 how hard would it be for you to have to cut them loose?

00:13:03.800 Let's say you skyrocket, because this is usually what happens.

00:13:06.440 The business takes off, and all of a sudden now,

00:13:09.320 people just can't keep up.

00:13:11.720 Not to say that they have to leave the company.

00:13:13.760 I mean, would that be soul crushing?

00:13:16.160 Yeah, and we've already talked through situations like that.

00:13:18.900 Honestly, it's been like any one of the three of us is like not.

00:13:21.260 Even yourself, you're referred.

00:13:22.700 It's even like not advanced.

00:13:23.900 You know, it's like there's been times the guys are like, hey,

00:13:25.300 Dave, we need you stepping up and growing as a CEO.

00:13:27.800 Oh, really?

00:13:28.300 It's new for me.

00:13:29.080 And so it's like we all kind of are sharpening each other.

00:13:31.380 And I think, I don't know.

00:13:32.900 I mean, we're definitely aware that co-founder relationships

00:13:35.960 can get very strained, and we all have to really advance.

00:13:38.960 I think it's one of the main reasons

00:13:40.640 companies don't grow because of co-founder

00:13:43.800 and fight, especially on our product decision,

00:13:45.360 especially when things aren't going as well,

00:13:47.120 because everybody's got, I mean, me and my co-founder, Ethan,

00:13:49.840 it got to the point where he wanted to go SMB,

00:13:52.060 I wanted to go enterprise.

00:13:53.680 And we had to essentially call a bet,

00:13:57.220 run an experiment for two weeks, and use that.

00:14:01.140 And we told our investors, like, here's the two decisions.

00:14:03.220 We both think they're good.

00:14:04.580 I obviously thought the enterprise 1.00

00:14:05.880 was the better decision because SMB are a freaking pain in the ass. 1.00

00:14:10.320 Did you win? 1.00

00:14:10.860 Yes, I did win.

00:14:11.820 And he had to take me to Jay-Z and Eminem

00:14:15.780 did these two concert.

00:14:17.280 Anyway, so he had to pay.

00:14:18.180 So that was an awesome outcome.

00:14:19.180 But I could see if we didn't have a healthy way

00:14:22.160 of getting through that, it could have been

00:14:23.820 the end of the company because these are big decisions.

00:14:27.580 I think for us, I don't know what other people do,

00:14:29.860 But we definitely, at the end of the day, I'm the CEO.

00:14:32.580 The guys trust me.

00:14:33.880 I mean, I've got the same amount of equity as them.

00:14:35.740 But my job, my day job, is be the CEO of the company.

00:14:39.740 And so ultimately, they're going to look to me

00:14:41.980 to make the decision.

00:14:43.060 And that's worked so far for us, which has been good.

00:14:44.920 But we kind of had to have that conversation a few years ago,

00:14:46.900 where it was just like, who's in charge?

00:14:48.520 Who ultimately makes that decision?

00:14:51.220 We can't just be these three buddies.

00:14:52.700 We've got to run a company.

00:14:53.560 And I think that was really healthy.

00:14:54.900 I think it gave me the freedom to step up and become that leader.

00:14:58.460 Because I was always timid.

00:14:59.420 It's like, I don't want to step on your toes.

00:15:01.000 I don't know if you're looking to me.

00:15:02.840 Do you feel like that's a big part of your personality

00:15:05.840 has grown as just maybe decisiveness

00:15:08.800 or clear communicator, quicker to make decisions?

00:15:12.720 You know what I mean?

00:15:13.220 Is that like, that's the thing?

00:15:14.720 I think that's kind of naturally who I am,

00:15:18.380 but it hasn't been fully developed,

00:15:19.880 or hasn't been developed as much as it is now.

00:15:21.020 So you're saying it might have always been there,

00:15:22.600 but now you just gave yourself permission.

00:15:23.600 I think it was always there, but I think

00:15:24.440 even just having the permission for myself, from them,

00:15:27.280 and just being put in a place where it's like,

00:15:29.020 I've got to come and not just be this nice guy, 0.99

00:15:32.720 but I've got to go kick some ass and make tough decisions 0.99

00:15:35.780 and drive the company. 0.99

00:15:36.580 But it's funny how even words.

00:15:37.960 So Jared, who's sitting back there, a videographer,

00:15:41.140 and one of my best buds, he jokingly uses words like,

00:15:44.240 I've got to hire myself a grunt worker.

00:15:46.040 And it's like, even in what you just said,

00:15:49.380 I can't be the nice guy, it's dangerous

00:15:52.280 because it's not what you're saying.

00:15:53.480 You're just saying, I've got to be more direct.

00:15:54.720 I've got to be quicker.

00:15:55.920 And I'm like, Jared, I don't think anybody

00:15:57.320 wants to work for you if you call him a grunt worker.

00:15:59.020 So just throwing that out there.

00:16:00.640 But it's really, I think at scale,

00:16:04.120 it's a belief that I have is that companies

00:16:06.860 that can grow leaders the fastest grow the fastest.

00:16:09.100 And it's really, and the first leader is you.

00:16:13.800 How have you been able to develop yourself then

00:16:16.640 to get to that?

00:16:17.640 And maybe, and like you said, I've always been this way.

00:16:20.060 I just gave myself permission to do it more.

00:16:22.680 What gave you permission?

00:16:24.280 Yeah.

00:16:26.020 I think I've had to add on a lot of these skills.

00:16:28.760 So I guess I was not naturally who I am today.

00:16:35.260 So I think I do that.

00:16:36.280 I read a ton of books.

00:16:37.460 I probably read one or two books a week.

00:16:39.840 Oh, wow.

00:16:40.340 I'm a CEO and stuff.

00:16:41.900 A lot of audio books.

00:16:43.140 Just like three times a week.

00:16:44.360 I had somebody show me they listen while they read.

00:16:47.000 They get the audio book.

00:16:48.040 I've never done that.

00:16:49.400 Austin does that?

00:16:50.040 I've never done that.

00:16:51.200 It makes sense.

00:16:51.880 Yeah, like listening.

00:16:53.640 Yeah, he does that.

00:16:56.020 Programs like yours and working with you.

00:16:58.160 Like, I'm always kind of looking for mentors to be like,

00:17:00.040 hey, you've done this.

00:17:00.880 Like, how can I do this?

00:17:01.860 And that's kind of why we even started our podcast

00:17:03.480 was it was just like, I just want to get these people on

00:17:06.260 because I am genuinely curious.

00:17:08.040 I have something to ask them personally.

00:17:10.460 Yeah.

00:17:10.960 And I think it's kind of shifted from this show to more like,

00:17:15.360 hey, I'm just going to have a mentorship conversation here.

00:17:18.280 You guys can record.

00:17:19.340 But I'm going to kind of ask, like, whatever I'm looking for.

00:17:21.620 I think it's been a better show.

00:17:23.340 It's a better show.

00:17:23.900 Way better show.

00:17:24.320 It's a better conversation.

00:17:25.160 Because it's like, this is me genuinely just trying to learn here.

00:17:27.680 When you're open to whatever challenges, which is,

00:17:32.480 there's more feeling.

00:17:33.740 So that's the thing, especially, that's why I like this format.

00:17:37.520 Interview shows are so like, you feel the vibe.

00:17:39.840 It's like giving a talk, where there's like,

00:17:41.500 oh, tell me your origin story, and those three things.

00:17:44.880 But I don't know, I'm more interested in listening

00:17:47.720 to a conversation.

00:17:48.680 So I love doing that.

00:17:49.180 This is a good riff.

00:17:49.920 This is kind of a good setup, I think.

00:17:51.500 Yeah.

00:17:53.180 So books, mentors, it sounds like you give your team,

00:17:58.340 your co-founders permission to hold you accountable, right?

00:18:01.100 So you don't tell them to shut the F up if they-

00:18:03.020 Yeah, they're hard on me. 0.66

00:18:04.640 Yeah, I'm the boss.

00:18:05.380 Can't talk to me that way.

00:18:06.240 And I've even had to honestly help cultivate that.

00:18:09.940 I didn't realize, as CEO, it's really hard for people

00:18:13.280 to give me feedback.

00:18:14.060 100%.

00:18:14.560 And I'm just like, just do it. 0.96

00:18:16.220 Just suck at the- I'm not going to- it's like, I want this. 0.90

00:18:18.800 But I have to keep telling them, even the co-founders. 0.96

00:18:21.020 Guys, I know I'm messing up all the time.

00:18:23.120 I know it.

00:18:23.620 I know I'm not that good at this.

00:18:24.920 I know every day I'm trying to learn.

00:18:26.900 You can just tell me, because I need to know.

00:18:29.620 And I think we've had to kind of cultivate

00:18:31.220 that across our whole company, but particularly

00:18:32.800 with people towards me, because I want to grow.

00:18:34.740 I want to learn.

00:18:36.060 And that's been helpful to have people start to share that.

00:18:37.640 It's one of those things, man, where it's like people hear,

00:18:40.300 but it's like there's no upside.

00:18:41.900 Oh, I know.

00:18:42.500 You know what I mean?

00:18:43.340 Why would I do that?

00:18:44.560 I just feel like it's not going to add anything to my life.

00:18:46.860 It'll help you.

00:18:47.660 Yeah.

00:18:49.000 Yeah, it's interesting.

00:18:50.280 I like some of these new tools, like 15.5,

00:18:52.860 and there's a bunch of these feedback.

00:18:54.280 And you can do them anonymously to really get a 360 review.

00:18:57.780 And I have a tough time with us, because I'm kind of like,

00:19:00.040 you want to know.

00:19:00.620 I'm like, we don't need to do it anonymously.

00:19:02.040 I'm just like, man up.

00:19:03.480 Human nature, man.

00:19:04.260 They won't do it.

00:19:04.920 But then, yeah.

00:19:05.420 But then, again, I've got people that are honestly saying,

00:19:08.400 Dave, you're wrong.

00:19:10.040 People don't want to share feedback

00:19:11.560 as much as you want them to.

00:19:12.780 We need to provide that space to do that.

00:19:14.940 That's been good.

00:19:15.720 So yeah, we've got some anonymous surveys going out,

00:19:17.720 and people are giving good feedback.

00:19:19.380 What have you learned about the culture side of growing

00:19:21.480 the business so far?

00:19:22.620 I mean, it's hard.

00:19:23.340 It's hard, especially in transition.

00:19:24.700 Again, we were growing really fast.

00:19:26.400 It was clear product.

00:19:27.540 It was no problem.

00:19:28.680 One product, growing super fast.

00:19:31.000 It was just all hands on deck, super fun.

00:19:33.100 And things start to slow down.

00:19:34.500 We start to work on a second product.

00:19:36.700 We've got half the division of labor. 1.00

00:19:38.320 People are like, is this the bad product?

00:19:40.800 And this is the good product?

00:19:41.860 Is this the old product, the new product?

00:19:43.320 I'm like, no, they're both just products

00:19:45.060 that our customers need.

00:19:46.560 And I've got to communicate that over and over and over

00:19:49.340 over again where we had people you know on the current social proof notification product that

00:19:53.980 are like they finally came out because we were having the conversations like what's going on

00:19:57.260 guys and someone's like i'm kind of worried that like we're gonna get fired i'm like fired like

00:20:02.940 yeah we need more people you know but it's kind of like i hadn't told him recently that

00:20:07.980 you're good like you know because i'm just thinking dude like i'll let you know if you're

00:20:12.860 gonna be fired like we'll have that conversation but like until then don't but isn't that funny

00:20:17.260 like most founders, once they hear or learn something,

00:20:20.860 it's locked in until something changes.

00:20:22.720 But for employees, if it's too long since the last time

00:20:25.400 they heard it, then they can like it.

00:20:27.740 It's almost like, I don't know, my wife,

00:20:30.640 she wants to hear often about how much I appreciate her.

00:20:33.100 Totally what I think about.

00:20:34.000 I needed to just hear it once this week.

00:20:36.340 And I'm good to know that unless I do something different,

00:20:38.500 we're good.

00:20:39.400 And yeah, it's kind of, I think that's

00:20:42.500 the biggest frustration as a leader

00:20:44.280 is the amount of time you have to repeat yourself

00:20:47.140 just so that you can get people feeling good

00:20:49.300 and making the right decisions.

00:20:51.240 And I'm thinking about stuff 24 hours a day in my head.

00:20:53.920 And I'll go back and forth for six months.

00:20:57.320 And then I finally release it.

00:20:59.180 And I expect them to be fully up to speed the same way I have.

00:21:02.580 And I've been thinking about it for a year.

00:21:04.560 Different variations, different paths,

00:21:06.660 all this context that they're just like,

00:21:08.820 he just made a decision.

00:21:10.100 Yeah, totally.

00:21:11.060 And so I've got to let them come up to speed.

00:21:14.140 I've also got to build more trust, which

00:21:16.300 was they kind of ultimately trust me.

00:21:18.760 And yeah, I think it's been challenging, but really good.

00:21:22.120 I've got a lot to learn, and I've learned a lot

00:21:23.820 about how to communicate and how to lead the team.

00:21:25.480 And I think right now, as we're going to launch a new product,

00:21:28.120 I'm just telling them, just hold on.

00:21:30.320 It's going to be OK.

00:21:32.020 In six months, we're making tons of cash,

00:21:33.700 and this thing's doing the same thing Proof did.

00:21:36.700 We're going to be in great shape.

00:21:38.200 But it's like, just hang on in the interim,

00:21:40.300 because I know that's going to be a little bit tough.

00:21:42.400 What's your approach to, we're at TNC,

00:21:46.420 there's a bunch of silver, shiny objects.

00:21:49.900 You're a talented marketer.

00:21:51.580 How do you decide when to evaluate versus stay the course?

00:21:56.280 And how have you guys thought about that

00:21:57.880 from a marketing point of view?

00:21:59.980 Because that's what I've always admired about you

00:22:01.660 is your guys' marketing skills.

00:22:04.420 It's part of your DNA.

00:22:05.600 You guys did it really well, or do it really well.

00:22:08.140 Yeah, honestly, I've kind of stepped out

00:22:10.840 of a lot of the data to do marketing.

00:22:12.100 I've just got people that are a lot better than me at it.

00:22:14.300 So Austin Distel and Austin Troyer and Ben Johnson,

00:22:16.560 these three guys, they're just like really great team.

00:22:19.060 And like, they love all that stuff and geek out.

00:22:20.980 And I had to have a conversation with them like a year ago to be like,

00:22:23.140 listen, like, I know, I know how to do this stuff,

00:22:25.540 but like today I'm officially giving it to you.

00:22:28.480 Like you don't have to run everything by me.

00:22:30.200 And like, that was like a big conversation.

00:22:31.560 I saw them step up in a huge way after that conversation to be like,

00:22:34.800 okay, we're going to go take on like all the marketing.

00:22:36.800 And so for me, honestly,

00:22:37.780 I don't spend a ton of time like thinking about the tools and the

00:22:41.100 strategies, and the bots, and all those different kinds of things.

00:22:43.720 I kind of send information to them and say,

00:22:45.840 I try to connect them with people, say, hey, here's this.

00:22:47.400 You'll learn something, you'll be like, hey, I'm not trying.

00:22:49.340 Because this is the other thing I find about leading teams

00:22:51.420 is even just the act of sharing something sometimes

00:22:54.340 comes off as a directive.

00:22:55.720 Totally.

00:22:56.480 Like, I'll read an article, and I'll just

00:22:58.540 like put it in someone's Slack message,

00:23:00.540 and they think they have to put everything in the ..

00:23:02.720 Yeah, so I have to say all the time,

00:23:04.920 or like somebody emails me, cold email, a tool I think

00:23:08.560 kind of looks cool, and I forward it off

00:23:10.720 just to say, hey, check this thing out.

00:23:12.520 I've had to start saying, hey, I haven't read this.

00:23:15.060 And I don't know anything about this.

00:23:16.500 And I don't care if you do it or not.

00:23:18.000 Because all of a sudden, they'll just hop on the call

00:23:19.560 with the rep, because they think that Dave told me to do it.

00:23:22.060 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:22.900 They're on a sales demo.

00:23:24.400 Yeah, I'm just sharing some things I think are cool.

00:23:26.480 So I've had to learn how to temper the directions

00:23:29.840 and say, OK, this is something I really care about.

00:23:32.380 There's something I don't care about almost at all.

00:23:33.960 But I just wanted to let you know.

00:23:35.280 Yeah, so you give some context to the sharing.

00:23:38.620 What did you learn at YC that most people

00:23:41.080 wouldn't know from the outside?

00:23:42.940 What are some kind of, a lot of people

00:23:45.220 want to apply, thousands of people every year.

00:23:47.800 You went through it.

00:23:50.320 What are some non-obvious things that you feel?

00:23:52.660 Some of the lessons.

00:23:53.600 Yeah, lessons and just the structure, how it works,

00:23:56.600 how you thought it would work versus how it did work.

00:23:58.720 I thought it would be a lot more like college.

00:24:01.000 I thought it would be a lot of classes or whatever.

00:24:04.000 But really, it's four hours a week.

00:24:05.560 And don't they encourage you not to share houses

00:24:08.440 with other YC companies.

00:24:09.400 Yeah, they don't want you to work in a co-working space.

00:24:11.540 They don't have an office.

00:24:12.580 They just want you to go away, and every week

00:24:14.280 you guys have a weekly thing, right?

00:24:16.120 Work for 160 hours straight, come back,

00:24:20.560 learn a little bit more, go back out, apply it all, come back,

00:24:24.940 get a quick tune-up.

00:24:25.920 That's really the model for them.

00:24:27.120 And they're like, most of the work,

00:24:28.320 you need to be writing code and talking to customers.

00:24:31.000 We don't know your business.

00:24:32.380 We're not your customer.

00:24:33.440 We don't know the answers.

00:24:34.300 We can give you some pointers, but your customers

00:24:35.940 will pull the product out of you if you're

00:24:38.080 to them and building products for them.

00:24:39.420 And so it's really just like four hours a week

00:24:41.260 that you go do that.

00:24:42.520 Really?

00:24:43.120 What's the format of those four hours?

00:24:44.840 So you go and we have like a group session.

00:24:47.380 We're kind of in group four.

00:24:49.320 And it's kind of like a.

00:24:50.500 How many groups were there?

00:24:52.060 I think there was five.

00:24:53.320 OK, so there were pretty big groups.

00:24:54.340 There was 150 companies in our batch.

00:24:56.080 150 companies?

00:24:56.980 150 companies.

00:24:57.960 So there was like 400, 300 founders, something like that. 0.99

00:25:01.060 Damn. 0.98

00:25:01.600 This batch, I think, was over 200 companies. 1.00

00:25:04.540 Oh my gosh.

00:25:05.200 So it's getting huge.

00:25:06.080 Wow.

00:25:06.580 were just looking at the math and thinking

00:25:08.040 we could be making fistfuls of cash if we had more people.

00:25:12.280 So they're trying to blow it up right now.

00:25:14.020 Wow.

00:25:14.520 But we'd do this group conversation.

00:25:16.020 We had two group mentors that would give feedback.

00:25:18.320 Was the size of it one of the things that was like, oh, 0.99

00:25:20.580 shit, there's a lot of people here. 0.99

00:25:21.960 Let's not get lost in the noise. 0.99

00:25:24.680 I'd say we did kind of get lost.

00:25:26.320 It was like we didn't really meet a ton of people.

00:25:30.020 The group partners were cool, but I didn't like,

00:25:32.320 I'm not best friends with them.

00:25:33.820 Yeah.

00:25:34.320 I'm probably not just another company.

00:25:36.400 It's like super helpful, but really, I think for us,

00:25:40.340 it was just a matter of bringing the team in three months.

00:25:42.720 Yeah, it was just a matter of bringing the team out

00:25:44.120 in this house for three months and just building.

00:25:47.220 Yeah, I mean, you're front loading a year in three months.

00:25:50.440 Exactly.

00:25:50.980 Like 160 hours.

00:25:52.800 Yeah, so it's the forcing function

00:25:54.600 of bringing everybody together.

00:25:56.540 That combined with, I think, the demo day timeline.

00:25:58.960 Well, I think that combined with the people you're talking to

00:26:01.560 think so big, you can't bring your little piddly ideas to them.

00:26:06.180 You can't go and be like, I'm just trying to get a webinar

00:26:08.460 funnel up.

00:26:09.280 They'd be like, what?

00:26:10.980 They have an office hours with Paul Bukite, you know him?

00:26:13.560 Yeah, Gmail dude.

00:26:14.260 Yeah, yeah.

00:26:15.180 And he sits down and it's called like the $100 billion.

00:26:17.880 It's like, how do we create a company that's worth $100

00:26:20.580 billion someday?

00:26:22.180 And it's just like brainstorming, actually.

00:26:24.180 It's just going to get you thinking bigger.

00:26:25.340 And you start like, he kind of looks at your company

00:26:27.660 and he's like, I think that could be it.

00:26:28.980 Or I think that could be it.

00:26:30.180 Obviously, he doesn't know.

00:26:31.020 But it's just like, you leave there,

00:26:32.480 and you don't care about webinar funnels anymore.

00:26:34.020 You're like, how do we achieve this huge vision?

00:26:36.480 So I think that was really big for us,

00:26:38.360 because it was just so normal to talk about $100 million ARR.

00:26:42.940 Yeah, it's funny.

00:26:43.900 Now that you said $100 billion, $100 million ARR

00:26:46.620 seems a little bit like nothing.

00:26:48.120 Totally.

00:26:48.620 It's just like, I don't want to talk about a billion now.

00:26:50.560 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:26:51.400 So I think for me, that was a big part of it.

00:26:54.200 We left really empowered to be weak.

00:26:56.460 I think, I mean, you mentioned mentors and communities

00:26:59.160 and stuff, I think that's probably

00:27:01.440 the biggest benefit of that peer proximity,

00:27:07.020 like just making you think bigger.

00:27:09.160 Once you do it, you can't go back, right?

00:27:11.040 Once you experience it, you can't go back.

00:27:14.140 It's kind of like that, you know, it expands.

00:27:17.640 What do you think, you know, there's

00:27:19.560 a lot of people watching that are 10 Millionaire Plus

00:27:23.220 and other guys just kicking it off trying to get things going.

00:27:28.260 What do you think is the future of SaaS,

00:27:31.860 as we know it, in regards to how people are going to buy?

00:27:35.820 Like, where do you see the market going?

00:27:40.620 Maybe at your, because you probably

00:27:42.120 have more experience at kind of the SMB mid-market level.

00:27:45.180 What do you think is going to change over the next?

00:27:47.540 I think what is happening at a consumer level,

00:27:51.380 like you open a consumer app, you open Robinhood,

00:27:53.280 it's just this amazing experience.

00:27:55.380 It's delightful, super fun.

00:27:57.900 Like, you come to expect that on an iPhone app.

00:28:00.320 But then you kind of log into these business apps,

00:28:02.660 like the web apps, and it's not as good.

00:28:05.040 Or again, I haven't even seen a lot of enterprise apps.

00:28:07.580 Like, you log into some of them, and it's like,

00:28:09.080 this is really not that well designed.

00:28:11.400 Yeah.

00:28:11.900 And I think now, as the market's flooding with more and more

00:28:13.980 SaaS, it gets easier to build.

00:28:14.920 Like, you've got to build B2B, the consumer-grade apps.

00:28:18.700 They have to be really exciting.

00:28:19.220 From a user experience point of view, speed.

00:28:21.500 Totally.

00:28:21.980 Like, you can't microcopy.

00:28:24.260 I feel like so many of these things are not thought of.

00:28:26.860 All these things, your empty states,

00:28:28.320 like, what does the screen look like?

00:28:29.660 These are things that I just don't think B2B has done well

00:28:32.440 or even needed to do well.

00:28:34.180 But now, we have 100 competitors to proof.

00:28:37.420 They're popping up every day.

00:28:38.500 Is there really that many?

00:28:39.420 I don't know.

00:28:40.240 There's a lot.

00:28:40.740 It's probably a lot more than I even know about.

00:28:42.280 I mean, there's at least probably 30.

00:28:44.560 And it's like, they're good products.

00:28:47.440 It's really hard to compete feature for feature.

00:28:49.840 I got some squad in India can go and just clone 1.00

00:28:52.240 our whole product in three months.

00:28:53.680 And so you're not going to win there.

00:28:56.360 You're going to have to win in brand and the entire experience.

00:28:59.060 And what are you doing for that?

00:29:00.380 What do you guys think?

00:29:01.220 I think Scale or Die, the podcast,

00:29:02.600 is a big part of that, how we kind of build brand

00:29:04.800 and build personality and let people in.

00:29:07.500 And what companies do you look at that are doing that well?

00:29:11.480 I've been studying Drift a lot recently.

00:29:13.400 Yeah, I mean the books.

00:29:14.720 Yeah, I like those guys a lot.

00:29:16.520 I think we've kind of learned and built our podcast

00:29:19.520 a little bit off of seeking wisdom, what they're doing there.

00:29:22.100 I think Intercom does this really well.

00:29:23.880 I think they've got a very person-friendly type brand.

00:29:26.760 Yeah, MailChimp.

00:29:27.640 I don't use them, so I'm not as familiar with them.

00:29:30.060 Man, they were the pioneers.

00:29:31.140 WooFoo.

00:29:31.980 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:29:32.560 WooFoo was the early days, just adding personality

00:29:34.760 in the product base camp.

00:29:36.060 Yeah, totally.

00:29:37.160 So I think we're trying to get back to that.

00:29:39.900 I think we're way out there in info marketing land,

00:29:43.820 and lots of videos, and everybody knew me.

00:29:46.560 We came back, we're like, we're going to be a software company.

00:29:48.820 We're going to be blue, and look enterprise,

00:29:52.460 and pull all the personality back.

00:29:53.840 What are we doing?

00:29:54.700 This is killing us.

00:29:56.180 So this year, we're going way back now.

00:29:57.520 So you actually did that.

00:29:59.420 You felt that.

00:30:01.220 And I'm assuming you enjoy this, so you don't do this.

00:30:04.880 And all of a sudden, it's like, why are we doing that?

00:30:06.500 Let's add the personality back into the product.

00:30:08.360 Totally.

00:30:08.900 Let's do what we were already doing.

00:30:10.440 And it's just like, I can do this.

00:30:13.520 I probably don't love it.

00:30:16.040 I don't want to be the guru.

00:30:17.700 I don't love that.

00:30:19.460 But it's like, I can do that.

00:30:20.840 Yeah, and it sounds like the double win is,

00:30:24.500 you get great content for your customer base,

00:30:27.200 or potential customers, and you get mentoring from people

00:30:29.780 that you want to hear from.

00:30:31.520 It's amazing.

00:30:32.240 Yeah.

00:30:32.740 It's a total freebie.

00:30:33.740 Yeah.

00:30:34.240 I just get to do this, it's like I can connect to people

00:30:35.900 that I couldn't connect with before.

00:30:38.000 So I think, man, platforms are important.

00:30:39.440 Even with TNC, I've watched Ryan Dice over the years,

00:30:42.940 and I mean, all these speakers, I mean,

00:30:45.020 these are people you wouldn't be able to get connected with

00:30:47.120 at that scale, at that speed, because you're

00:30:49.580 able to write a big check to have them come speak,

00:30:51.540 well, they're not going to just run off stage and leave.

00:30:53.300 You get to hang out.

00:30:54.080 You get to know them.

00:30:55.160 You're the person.

00:30:55.760 You're the connector.

00:30:57.580 I do it through Founders Dinners.

00:30:58.660 We had a lunch yesterday with a bunch of SaaS founders.

00:31:00.660 I just think that it's a really cool way to create value

00:31:07.340 and connect.

00:31:09.580 But the branding, so what about customer support?

00:31:12.220 What else are you guys doing to kind of differentiate

00:31:14.300 that's non-product specific?

00:31:16.140 Yeah, something that we, yeah, I mean, customer support's

00:31:18.760 a great touch point this is kind of related to your question but something we started we used

00:31:22.400 to have a customer support be you know three people you know try to make it as cheap as

00:31:26.520 possible yeah how many tickets do they close yeah now the entire team does customer support

00:31:31.500 all of our engineers all the co-founders everyone does customer support we do these customer support

00:31:36.120 power hours what we call them so it's about one to two hours once a week get together with like

00:31:40.200 five people and you all just like hammer away and like support customers and share information

00:31:44.000 share learnings and that's been huge for us because now like everybody's thinking about

00:31:47.940 the customer, the engineers used to be like customer support

00:31:51.700 would tell a product manager who would write up some tickets

00:31:54.540 and tell the engineers.

00:31:55.580 And it was just like too far away.

00:31:57.580 Yeah.

00:31:58.080 And so we're just like, no, forget all that. 0.98

00:31:59.940 And the engineers are not responsible for the crap 0.97

00:32:01.680 code they put into production. 0.97

00:32:02.780 They never see it.

00:32:03.200 Yeah.

00:32:03.500 They never see it.

00:32:04.040 They never see the repercussions.

00:32:05.120 So now it's like, hey, this thing's broken.

00:32:07.140 It's like, great.

00:32:07.860 You built it.

00:32:08.840 Hop into intercom.

00:32:09.880 You're going to hop on the phone with this person.

00:32:11.500 You're going to fix that.

00:32:12.380 And then they're like, write cleaner code.

00:32:14.000 But also they just see things that customers want

00:32:15.780 and just bang it out real quick.

00:32:16.980 So I think that's been actually a huge shift

00:32:19.140 in just how we build products, but also

00:32:20.640 how our customers relate to our company.

00:32:22.220 You get everyone.

00:32:23.680 I'm in there once a week, helping customers.

00:32:26.160 It's like everyone is in there doing this.

00:32:27.860 And I think it's created a more people and customer

00:32:30.120 centric culture.

00:32:30.620 So it helped with the culture.

00:32:32.040 Totally.

00:32:32.800 And on that note, you brought everybody to Austin.

00:32:35.300 I'm assuming everybody's in Austin for the most part,

00:32:37.300 except for your firm.

00:32:38.340 Yeah.

00:32:38.740 Right.

00:32:39.740 Yeah.

00:32:40.940 How is that different from before in your previous companies?

00:32:46.100 we were in annapolis maryland and we had done the remote thing and i i like the remote thing but

00:32:51.220 we're just not good at it i'm like an in-person person we want to play basketball with the team

00:32:55.380 afterwards we want to like have them over for barbecue like we just want to like so you do

00:32:59.220 play basketball i do the tallest man in sass okay i was like i don't play he used to be the tallest

00:33:07.380 man yeah one of my uh my team members of michael he uh he plays squash i keep joking i'm going to 0.95

00:33:12.180 kick his ass and i find out he just won a tournament so i stopped saying it i still 0.99

00:33:15.060 say it. I just don't want the game to happen so that he actually knows. But we really want to 1.00

00:33:21.060 build a team locally right now. And we want to have everybody in Austin. We're just way better

00:33:26.740 there. The people that are with us are way happier than people that have been remote.

00:33:30.340 And we just do a lot better there. It's really just knowing what you...

00:33:35.060 I mean, that's the thing about business is that for many aspects of it, it's really creating

00:33:41.780 a place, an organism, a structure where you get to do your best work.

00:33:44.980 And if you know that about yourself, that you're way better in person.

00:33:47.700 And I think that's the funnest part about building a business.

00:33:52.820 So here's a question that comes up a lot about exiting or selling.

00:33:57.540 What's your thoughts on building the exit versus just like building?

00:34:00.340 Because you're obviously putting a lot of time and energy

00:34:02.740 in trying to build a great product, but you've raised money.

00:34:07.300 Where's your headspace at around that?

00:34:08.980 I'm kind of split on that.

00:34:10.180 I mean, I inherently understand building something to sell.

00:34:13.700 It's how we think of our product.

00:34:14.780 We don't just build a product.

00:34:16.640 We build it to sell it.

00:34:18.380 That's the whole purpose.

00:34:19.420 And I think companies, it's totally fine to do that.

00:34:21.780 I think we've kind of shifted to a place where we used to be like,

00:34:24.620 OK, let's build this thing and sell to more of, 0.51

00:34:27.380 let's build a place that we want to come to every single day.

00:34:30.920 And that will become a really big company

00:34:32.940 because I'll be able to do it for 80 years if I need to.

00:34:35.780 Because I can do it forever.

00:34:37.280 Yeah.

00:34:37.780 And then when that acquisition comes, or when the sale comes,

00:34:40.340 it's like, that's going to be really hard for me to leave.

00:34:42.120 So I'm going to get a much better price from that.

00:34:43.640 Yeah, because you're not going to want to sell.

00:34:44.840 I'm not going to want to sell, which is a great place to be.

00:34:46.520 Yeah.

00:34:46.820 And so I think we've kind of been like,

00:34:48.040 let's just build a company that we love.

00:34:49.840 And then whenever we sell, it'll obviously be even better than

00:34:53.060 that, and it'd be a really good thing.

00:34:54.260 Yeah.

00:34:54.800 But I don't know.

00:34:55.520 What are your thoughts on that?

00:34:56.560 I mean, you've gone through that cycle.

00:34:58.400 Yeah, no, I've gone through it.

00:34:59.480 I think what I've learned is for certain,

00:35:05.080 If you get it right, then the thing you're doing

00:35:07.840 is the destination.

00:35:08.920 So a lot of you hear this man all the time, right?

00:35:10.920 Journey, destination, it's the journey.

00:35:13.120 And it takes a few times or enough time in business

00:35:15.400 to realize like, oh, I really, the part I enjoyed the most

00:35:18.220 was actually the problem solving.

00:35:19.380 So people are like, oh, it's so hard right now.

00:35:21.900 It's like, yeah, but you want it to be hard

00:35:23.700 because you don't get to learn or grow when things are

00:35:26.800 as expected.

00:35:27.640 So I almost feel like if you spend all the time and energy

00:35:30.580 building the environment that you love, exiting to then,

00:35:34.840 And this is a conversation I had with Chris at Wistia.

00:35:36.680 We were just there in Boston.

00:35:38.380 I brought my JFDI group to sit down,

00:35:40.680 because they did something that not few, Buffer did it,

00:35:43.520 where they actually bought their investors back.

00:35:45.980 They went and raised debt equity.

00:35:48.100 You can all go online to read the article post they did.

00:35:51.880 Because they realized that if we sold,

00:35:53.400 and they could have sold, that him and his co-founder

00:35:56.080 would just start doing something similar space as Wistia, 0.99

00:35:59.800 and in the same area with the same kind of people.

00:36:02.720 And he's like, well, if we're going to do this anyways,

00:36:04.400 Why don't we just buy out our investors

00:36:06.080 so they get what they need and keep doing it?

00:36:08.360 And I thought, I think your mindset

00:36:10.620 is the right way to approach it regardless,

00:36:12.120 is design it as if you're going to do it

00:36:14.060 for the rest of your life.

00:36:15.440 And then by doing that, create optionality

00:36:18.720 and evaluate that optionality as it comes in for what it is.

00:36:23.540 And just try not to get distracted.

00:36:26.900 You know what I mean?

00:36:28.000 Yeah, I agree.

00:36:28.700 I had the same thought about proof.

00:36:30.020 If I sold proof today, what would I do tomorrow?

00:36:32.200 I'd start proof.

00:36:33.740 And this is the key, all the work that you've

00:36:35.780 done around culture and team, et cetera, dude, I've done it.

00:36:38.900 Starting from zero, it's no fun.

00:36:41.780 It's like, I've got to rebuild the team.

00:36:43.700 I've got to go through all of these decisions

00:36:47.180 again that honestly I don't want to make

00:36:49.180 because I've already made them before.

00:36:50.180 But they're with a new team and a new product

00:36:52.100 and a new customer base.

00:36:54.480 And there's always this momentum.

00:36:56.060 That's why the early days are the hardest.

00:36:58.240 And I wish people could understand,

00:36:59.540 you're kind of five onwards if you can get product market fit

00:37:03.080 and you get to scale, I mean, it becomes super duper fun.

00:37:06.200 Because the problem is not this low-hanging,

00:37:09.500 trying to figure it out.

00:37:10.340 It's actually really big, cool needle

00:37:13.200 movers around people, and leadership, and culture,

00:37:15.520 and even impacting community.

00:37:17.120 I have a lot of clients that I coach,

00:37:18.220 and they get to decide what local charities.

00:37:21.040 Because once you're big enough, you've got the Death Star.

00:37:23.600 And you're like, what do I care about?

00:37:25.580 What do we care about as a company?

00:37:27.080 And really have local impact.

00:37:29.400 And I think that the business is just

00:37:31.880 a vehicle for that stuff.

00:37:34.460 Yeah, so building the sell, I feel

00:37:36.240 like people micro-optimize in the early days for stuff

00:37:39.420 that isn't important and isn't hard and not interesting,

00:37:43.440 only to find out they never get to actually reap

00:37:45.880 the benefit of those decisions, because getting an exit

00:37:48.180 is not that common.

00:37:49.440 And we love the people side.

00:37:50.780 We love the team.

00:37:51.640 I just kind of like the three of us as co-founders are.

00:37:54.020 And so we really get excited about building that team.

00:37:55.520 Dude, I was so sad with my previous.

00:37:57.000 So Ethan, my co-founder at Flowtown,

00:37:59.360 I was so bummed that I came out with Clarity

00:38:01.320 nights and weekends because we had an earn out.

00:38:03.760 And I decided to leave to go do that.

00:38:05.780 We were bummed because we, you know, imagine if you sold

00:38:08.700 and then you were running out and then one of you

00:38:10.100 decide to go do something else.

00:38:11.160 And you're like, well, that means for sure

00:38:12.540 we're not going to do this.

00:38:13.980 That we agree we gave each other 1% of our companies

00:38:17.080 for the rest of our lives.

00:38:17.840 That's cool.

00:38:18.340 Yeah.

00:38:18.840 So I have 1% of Digit and he has 1% of my coaching business,

00:38:22.100 which he gets a distribution check.

00:38:23.360 And yeah, it's just fun because it at least keeps us connected

00:38:27.060 the way co-founders, right?

00:38:29.280 What's new, what's exciting, and just, I don't know.

00:38:31.300 It's a way to solve that.

00:38:32.720 But Dave, it's been incredible watching your journey,

00:38:36.380 your rise, seeing what you're doing now.

00:38:38.680 Obviously, it's still early.

00:38:39.760 I can't wait to see, because I don't even

00:38:41.260 know what you're working on next.

00:38:42.340 But we had a big.

00:38:44.080 It should be good.

00:38:44.860 I was so excited at the beginning, though.

00:38:46.600 It's like, we're going to take over the world with this.

00:38:48.420 Then you launch it.

00:38:49.360 Dude, there's like these two humps, right?

00:38:51.760 There's the before it's released to the world,

00:38:54.040 and then it comes down a bit.

00:38:55.480 And then it's when you finally figure it out.

00:38:58.060 But I'm excited to see it and appreciate you.

00:39:00.580 And for the podcast, Scale or Die,

00:39:02.920 everybody's got to go check it out, subscribe, download it.

00:39:05.360 You guys can hear Dave get some coaching

00:39:07.840 from some of the smartest SaaS guys out there.

00:39:10.900 And can't wait to see how everything turns out.

00:39:13.740 Love it, man.

00:39:14.340 Thanks for having me on.

00:39:15.140 Appreciate it, man.

00:39:15.660 Absolutely, man.

00:39:16.100 Cheers.

00:39:16.440 Thanks for watching this episode of Escape Velocity.

00:39:19.680 Be sure to like and subscribe and leave a comment

00:39:22.440 with your biggest insight from our conversation.

00:39:25.140 Be sure to check out the next episode.

Dan Martell - May 09, 2019

Upgrade Your SaaS Company's Customer Support with Dave @ UseProof.com - Escape Velocity Show #1

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