On January 6th, a second pipe bomb was discovered in front of the Democratic National Committee building in Washington, D.C. by a passer-by. The FBI has not been able to identify the identity of the person who found the bomb, or how they came to be involved in the discovery. On January 8th, the FBI Director Ray LaHood and the Director of the Metropolitan Police Department, Thomas McInerny, came on the show on Firebrand to talk about what they have found and why they think someone else could have been responsible for the second bomb. They also discuss the lack of indictments in the case and whether or not the FBI should have been more aggressive in their investigation. Firebrand is a production of Native Creative Podcasts. New episodes released every Monday morning, 7 a.m. Eastern. Subscribe and comment to stay up to date on all things Native Creative. Learn more about your ad choices. Become a supporter of our sponsor: Rate/subscribe in Apple Podcasts! Rate, review and subscribe to our new podcast, Firebrand! and leave us a rating and review in iTunes! Thank you for listening and reviewing this episode! and share it with a friend! Timestamps: 0:00 - What do you think of this episode? 1:20 - What would you like to see in the future episodes of Firebrand? 2:15 - How do you feel about this podcast? 3: 4:30 - What are your thoughts on the case? 5:40 - What kind of evidence would you d? 6:10 - What's your favorite weapon? 7:00 8: Which weapon should I use? 9:00 -- Which weapon is your favorite? 11:30 -- What are you looking for? 12:00 | Which weapon do you use to make the most effective tool? 13:40 -- What does your favorite target? 14:30 15:10 -- What s your favorite piece of evidence? 16:40 17: What is your biggest takeaway from this episode would you would you use for the most important piece of information you're looking for in the most authentic piece of media piece? -- Which is the most likely to make a better than the most valuable piece of your most authentic experience? 15th? 18:20 -- What is the worst thing you re looking at?
00:05:35.000- Can you tell us how the second pipe bomb was found at the DNC?
00:05:44.000- Again, I'm not gonna get into that here.
00:05:46.000900 days ago is when this happened, and you said you had total confidence we'd apprehend the subject.
00:05:53.000We've found video that looks like somebody, a passerby, miraculously found this pipe bomb At the DNC and then notified the police.
00:06:02.000Miraculously, I say, because it was specifically the same, the precise time to cause the maximum distraction from the events going on at the Capitol.
00:06:10.000Can you show this video that we have, please?
00:06:13.000I'd like to know if the director has seen this.
00:06:15.000This is somebody with a mask on, wearing a hat.
00:06:19.000They're walking in front of the DNC, which is out of the view on the right-hand side.
00:06:57.000It appears to me that that's not a coincidence, that the person with the backpack who walked by that bench and then went up to the police and the detail didn't do that accidentally.
00:07:12.000They had a purpose in mind and then what transpired after that was the result of information that person gave to them.
00:07:18.000If that person found the pipe bomb, would they be a suspect?
00:07:24.000Well, again, I don't want to speculate about specific individuals.
00:07:27.000I will tell you that we have done thousands of interviews, reviewed something like 40,000 video files, of which this is one, assessed 500-something tips.
00:08:03.000You asked Director Ray these questions about the person who found the pipe bomb because you believe that that could tell us more about this really exquisite event on January 6th that was unlike anything else that happened on January 6th.
00:08:16.000There were no weapons that were found on people that were around the Capitol.
00:08:23.000This person who found the pipe bomb, the work of your staff above and beyond to go and ascertain these video movements.
00:08:30.000Just for a moment, talk about the significance of the pipe bomb in the overall January 6th narrative and how it's been used against people.
00:08:39.000Well, I mean, the narrative they're trying to push is this was an insurrection.
00:08:45.000You would think to bring a weapon to an insurrection, but the only weapons there were were weapons of mass destruction, these two pipe bombs, right?
00:08:53.000It heightens basically the chances that you're going to get indicted.
00:08:57.000These pipe bombs are mentioned in the statements to indict people.
00:09:01.000It brings up the overall tenor Of what was going on that day.
00:09:06.000And so it's significant if these were real or not.
00:09:09.000And there are theories on why they were there.
00:09:15.000Who wanted to make it easier to get into the Capitol that day?
00:09:19.000And when the government wanted to have higher criminal acuity and charging documents, the pipe bombs were referenced, even probably factoring into the sentencing decisions of some judges for people that were blocks away and had nothing to do with these pipe bombs.
00:09:33.000So you have been like a dog on a bone.
00:09:35.000You've been questioning the director of the FBI and others about Yeah, it looks identical to the training pipe bombs they build or train with that the FBI uses.
00:09:59.000So I just want to draw a fine point on it.
00:10:02.000The very type style function that the FBI trains on is substantially similar to what was found.
00:10:08.000Right down to the 60 minute kitchen timer.
00:10:11.000Now here's the problem with the 60 minute kitchen timer on these bombs.
00:10:14.000Both of them had identical 60 minute kitchen timers.
00:10:18.000The FBI claims that these bombs were placed 17 hours before they were discovered.
00:10:23.000And so that begs the question that I asked the assistant director in charge of Washington, D.C. field office, because he still claims, they all still claim these were viable pipe bombs.
00:10:34.000I said, how does a 60-minute kitchen timer set off a bomb 17 hours later?
00:10:41.000And he said, it can't, it won't, it doesn't.
00:10:44.000Right, so they essentially set a 17-hour fuse with a timer that was only an hour.
00:10:52.000Right, because I guess the training manual only shows you how to build one with a kitchen timer on it.
00:10:57.000So your staff then goes to look at the video, and you send your team to look at the different angles, and you come up with what we're showing on the screen now.
00:11:08.000And you see a very specific person who ends up finding this pipe bomb and ends up reporting it.
00:11:16.000Was there anything about these behaviors you're seeing that immediately piqued your curiosity?
00:11:21.000Well, first of all, the lackadaisical response To the notification that there's a bomb nearby.
00:11:29.000In that video that I showed Christopher Wray, we had to speed it up and take out parts of it to get all that done in a testimony because they mill about, they finish their lunch in their cars after the guy with the backpack Comes up and says, hey, there's a bomb over here.
00:11:46.000They sit in their cars eating lunch for a while.
00:11:50.000It looks like the Secret Service had got in the MPD car and was having lunch with them.
00:11:58.000And it takes about four minutes for them to get out.
00:12:01.000By the way, in the meantime, there are school children walking past what they've been told is a bomb sitting there.
00:12:07.000So you're immediately taking note of the lack of sense of urgency around this...
00:12:14.000You know, belief that an explodable bomb has been discovered.
00:12:51.000And what did you learn in that meeting?
00:12:53.000I learned that backpack guy, January 6th backpack guy, not to be confused with January 5th backpack person, backpack guy was a non-uniform, you know, plainclothes police officer in You know, in the employ of the Capitol Hill Police.
00:13:15.000The person who found the pipe bomb, the person who, D'Antuano, who was leading the investigation, say, oh yeah, the person who found it, it'd be Investigation 101 that they would be a suspect initially, until ruled out.
00:13:28.000You're saying that person was an undercover, plainclothes Capitol Police officer, and the Capitol Police confirmed that to you today?
00:13:40.000By the way, what does that mean to you?
00:13:43.000Well, it heightens some of my concerns and reduces some of the other concerns.
00:13:50.000One of the concerns that's heightened was trying to give the Secret Service and the Metro Police Department the benefit of the doubt when they took four minutes.
00:14:00.000They finished their lunch before they went and dealt with this pipe bomb.
00:14:04.000I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt and think that Well, if it's just some random passerby and he said, hey, there's something shiny over there, could be a lawn sprinkler, you know, not sure, maybe you want to check it out.
00:14:39.000Remember, here's the other just amazing timing, is that the first pipe bomb, the one at the Capitol Hill Club, now they call it the RNC pipe bomb, but they really should be calling it the Capitol Hill pipe bomb.
00:14:51.000I mean, the two buildings are next to each other, but it was like...
00:14:56.000The Capitol Hill Club, which is an entity where Republican members of Congress socialize and fundraise.
00:15:15.000He points out that the RNC-DNC narrative was made up after the fact.
00:15:22.000It was really the Capitol Hill Club DNC narrative that they should be talking about, but it just sounds a lot better that, oh, we knew to go look at the DNC once we found one at the RNC. Interesting.
00:15:33.000Well, if you thought somebody was going to blow up the RNC, don't they hate Republicans?
00:16:27.000That the Capitol Police would purposefully go and set a bomb anywhere that could potentially blow up and do anyone harm.
00:16:34.000I am not there that they would do something like that.
00:16:37.000However, you seem to point out in questioning with the ATF director that this wasn't an operational bomb that was going to blow up and hurt anybody.
00:16:46.000The assistant director in charge, he went on TV and said these were operable bombs and offered a reward, put out a message that they played on TV. And so in the beginning of my transcribed interview with him, he still maintained that they were operable.
00:17:47.000Do you know how the pipe bomb was discovered at the DNC? We've been told how it was discovered at the RNC. And according to a press release from the FBI, you're working with them on this investigation.
00:17:58.000Respectfully, I understand your disagreement, but I cannot comment because it is an ongoing criminal investigation.
00:18:20.000I believe, based on discussions with police, with FBI, and with former ATF, who now works for Capitol Police, that the bombs went to Quantico for inspection, not to the ATF. Now, he could have just told me that in the hearing, right?
00:18:55.000So we're in this meeting last night and one of our Republican colleagues turns to you as you're explaining how long it's been that this has been an open investigation.
00:19:03.000These videos that show the strange behavior of a person we now know was a plainclothes Capitol Police officer.
00:19:10.000And one of our Republican colleagues kept pressing you and saying, but Thomas, why would they do this?
00:19:14.000Why would anyone try to How do you plant these phony, fake devices in order to create confusion that day?
00:19:24.000And, you know, we don't know the answer to that question in all honesty.
00:19:29.000Yeah, well, again, I don't know who did it, but I can tell you a consequence of this.
00:19:35.000Because this is buried in the back of the January 6th committee report that...
00:19:41.000There was a call to bring more bike racks to the Capitol.
00:19:45.000They had hundreds of them loaded up, ready to bring to the Capitol to reinforce the Capitol.
00:19:51.000And it turns out those never made it because this DNC pipe bomb was discovered and they set up a perimeter and blocked them from coming.
00:19:59.000So if there was a booby trap intended to have people commit a technical violation of federal criminal law with no intent to break the law, that was facilitated perhaps by the very interestingly timed discovery of these two devices.
00:20:18.000Yeah, whether there was intent or not, the result of this, according to the January 6th committee, Was that it made it easier to breach the Capitol because the reinforcements couldn't be brought to the Capitol.
00:20:32.000I don't know quite what to make of it.
00:20:34.000It says, FBI tied January 6th pipe bomber to MetroCard of ex-government official but blocked interview of him, former agent says.
00:20:43.000This former agent, Kyle Serafin, very outspoken, has been someone who's facilitated other whistleblower testimony and the head The lead here is a former FBI agent says the Bureau quickly believed that it tied the person who planted the pipe bombs at the Democratic National Committee and the Republican National Committee to a particular Metro fare card and license plate but did not allow him to interview the person of interest and pulled his team off the lead.
00:21:10.000When you hear that, again, any claim that we see has to be corroborated, investigated, reviewed, but what's your reaction to a former FBI agent saying when they had more questions, when there were leads, that there was an impairment to that factual development?
00:21:49.000D'Antuano, and this is the narrative that the FBI has put out there, is that the night before, somebody walking around past the DNC and the Capitol Hill Club slash RNC alleyway, they say that person planted those bombs the night before, walking around.
00:22:05.000Now, we don't actually have video of that person placing the pipe bomb.
00:22:10.000We have video of that person walking around the neighborhood with a backpack.
00:22:14.000And sitting on the bench where it was found and reaching down.
00:22:17.000But the camera angles, which we believe they should have at the DNC that would show the placement of that pipe bob, have never been released.
00:22:25.000But we know that camera angle exists because they released a still frame of it.
00:24:08.000The Secret Service, now this may already be in public knowledge, and you may have already covered this, but I confirmed it today, that after five preservation requests, the Secret Service deleted all their cell phone texts for that day and destroyed the phones.
00:24:31.000Yeah, we had seen those reports, and the January 6th committee tried to act as though that was some effort to cover up reactions to Trump's behavior.
00:24:43.000Right, it's been covered in that context, right?
00:24:46.000Whether the Secret Service were wrestling or something.
00:25:17.000Yeah, there's no way that if they believed there was actually an explosive device, they would have left the incoming Vice President of the United States in a building.
00:25:27.000What if you hired somebody to be responsible for your health and well-being, and those people found out there was a pipe bomb between you and them, but they wanted to finish their lunch, Before they got out of the car, and then they let some school kids walk by this pipe, Bob.
00:25:45.000And then they thought to get you out of there five minutes after that.
00:25:51.000Like, okay, there's a bomb, and I'm supposed to keep the incoming vice president from being hurt, but this is a really good McDouble.
00:26:00.000And they just nailed it on this McDouble, and I just can't let this one sit and go cold.
00:26:27.000Matt, I have an ongoing congressional investigation.
00:26:31.000But seriously, there are some obvious leads to follow up here.
00:26:37.000We need to ask, for instance, the cell phone providers.
00:26:41.000Now, the FBI won't give us their communication with the cell phone providers.
00:26:45.000But if you're a cell phone provider and you're watching Matt Gaetz's podcast here, consider this as a preservation notification that we need to ask those cell phone providers for their communication with the FBI. Like, the FBI is telling us the dog ate their homework.
00:27:02.000I want to go talk to the dog that ate the homework.
00:27:52.000Now that we know that it was a plainclothes Capitol police officer who found the pipe bomb, we have to get a transcribed interview of that individual, right?
00:28:25.000I want to get your take on just a couple of the things that are in the news right now.
00:28:29.000Senator Wyden released documents confirming that the NSA is buying Americans' internet browsing records.
00:28:35.000He's called on the intelligence community to stop buying data that is obtained around the Fourth Amendment.
00:28:41.000You and I have worked on the Fourth Amendment is not for sale acts to try to stop the government from doing an end run around people's rights to buy commercially available data.
00:28:50.000I consider this a really strong piece of evidence in support of those legislative efforts.
00:28:54.000Why don't you have the chance to react to it?
00:29:10.000When people see you're getting chat scrolling by here on your screen, the one thing I hear most frequently is, what are you going to do about it?
00:29:38.000So, that was part of our FISA reform package that got thrown in the trash when FISA was expiring in December that should have been put on the floor.
00:29:58.000But that legislation needs to be in place to stop this.
00:30:01.000And some of our colleagues on the intelligence community are actually wanting to expand surveillance authorities.
00:30:06.000They want enhanced authorities to be able to soak up information that they collect on public Wi-Fi.
00:30:12.000And I think when you see the abuses that are existing and the end run around the Fourth Amendment, it should give us grave cause for concern.
00:30:18.000This week they're hammering out the details on this tax extender bill.
00:30:22.000I've got grave concerns about that bill.
00:30:24.000I would not vote for it as I see it now.
00:30:27.000What's the Thomas Massey take on where we are on the tax bill?
00:30:29.000The Thomas Massey take is when you give people tax money back that they didn't pay in, That's called welfare.