Firebrand - Matt Gaetz - Episode 36 LIVE: How to Beat Big Tech (feat. Rep. Ken Buck) – Firebrand with Matt Gaetz

In this episode, Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-GAZETTE) is joined by conservative commentator Mike Gibbons to discuss the dangers of Big Tech's censorship of conservative voices in the 21st century and the need for conservative voices to speak out against them. The Heritage Foundation has a new report that lays out the case against Big Tech, and lays out a road map for how to fight back against them in Congress and in the media. The report is titled, Combating Big Tech s Totalitarianism: A Roadmap to Stop Big Tech from Suppressing Conservative Speech, and How To Fight Big Tech in the Age of the Deep State. And, as always, thank you for tuning into Conservative Talk Radio and Business Insider. Please don't forget to rate, comment and subscribe to our other shows MIC/LINE, The Anthropology, The HYPE Report, and The HYPETALKS. Please take a few minutes to leave us a rating and review our podcast on Apple Podcasts! Subscribe, Like, Share, and Subscribe to our new podcast, The Conservative Lens. Thank you so much for your support and share the podcast with your fellow patriots. We are always grateful for your continued support and your continued encouragement. Thank you for being a Friend of Conservative Media and Business of the Swamp Dweller Podcast! - Your continued support is greatly appreciated. - Tom Pizzi and we look forward to seeing you in 2020. ! - The Swamp Thing Podcasts. Tom PODCAST, The Swamp Dwellers Podcast, the Swamp Thing, the podcast produced by Swamp Thing Media, the place where we cover all things conservative media and culture and culture. . . . and much more! - Thank you, Tom Pinnell, the swampy, urban legend, and all things swampy and swampy . of Swamp Thing , and all of your support is appreciated! Tom's new book, Tom's book is out in the new book "The Swamp Thing" is out now! and all the rest of the swamp is out! , and so much more. -- Tom's next book is coming soon! -- Thank you Tom's review is out soon, Tom s review -- the rest will be out soon! -- Tom s Tom s next book -- and we hope you like it, too? -- of course, we'll see you in the next episode

00:00:00.000 Thank you.

00:04:48.000 Matt Gaetz right now, he's a problem in the Democratic Party.

00:04:50.000 He can cause a lot of hiccups in passing applause.

00:04:53.000 So we're going to keep running those stories to get hurt again.

00:04:57.000 Stand for the flag and kneel in prayer.

00:05:00.000 If you want to build America up and not burn her to the ground, then welcome, my fellow patriots.

00:05:06.000 You are in the right place.

00:05:08.000 This is the movement for you.

00:05:10.000 You ever watch this guy on television?

00:05:12.000 Like a machine, Matt Gaetz.

00:05:14.000 I'm a canceled man in some corners of the internet.

00:05:18.000 Many days I'm a marked man in Congress, a wanted man by the deep state.

00:05:22.000 They aren't really coming for me.

00:05:24.000 They're coming for you.

00:05:27.000 I'm just in the way.

00:05:32.000 ...with a free market.

00:05:33.000 The reason Facebook is so powerful is because we all use them.

00:05:38.000 What we need to do is vote with our feet.

00:05:42.000 And that is the first thing you should do is go home and close your Facebook account and tell your friends because that is how you get these people.

00:05:53.000 We are live.

00:05:54.000 Welcome.

00:05:55.000 Broadcasting from the Capitol Complex, the Longworth House Office Building.

00:06:00.000 I've got a terrific guest today that is going to break down the battle against big tech.

00:06:04.000 Not the talking points, not what you saw right there, but the actual legislation that could become law.

00:06:10.000 Who we have to work with to make it happen and how that process has been refined over time through Investigations and other critical work of the Antitrust Subcommittee and the House Judiciary Committee.

00:06:20.000 So who you just heard?

00:06:22.000 That was the Ohio U.S. Senate Republican frontrunner, Mike Gibbons.

00:06:28.000 And I played you that clip from one of the U.S. Senate debates because I wanted to show you that some, not all, but some of the silver-haired leaders of Republicanism still believe that we can vote with our feet and detach ourselves from the digital world.

00:06:43.000 Build a competitor.

00:06:44.000 Free markets will save us.

00:06:46.000 Okay, Boomer. 1.00

00:06:47.000 Ask Parler how that went.

00:06:49.000 People went and tried to build their own, and yet the powerful forces of big tech were still sufficiently stifling.

00:06:54.000 Today, major technology platforms have more power than governments themselves, and they're using that power to harm conservatives.

00:07:03.000 Voting with your feet doesn't work without self-harming unilateral political and really economic disarmament in the information age.

00:07:13.000 And by the way...

00:07:15.000 Our man, Mike Gibbons, who told people to go unplug their Facebook, has a Facebook page he posted an hour ago.

00:07:23.000 And so it's just, we can't look to Republican leadership that doesn't offer serious, thoughtful solutions to how people interact with the digital world.

00:07:33.000 Fortunately, the Heritage Foundation's Kara Frederick put out a report that really gets to the core of this.

00:07:39.000 It was a jarring report entitled, Combating Big Tech's Totalitarianism, A Roadmap.

00:07:45.000 So, a few highlights from this Heritage report.

00:07:49.000 52% of Americans believe that big tech censoring the Hunter Biden laptop story was election interference.

00:07:56.000 More than half the country.

00:07:58.000 One in six Biden voters would have changed their mind had they seen the Hunter laptop story.

00:08:04.000 A lot of buyer's remorse out there in the country right now.

00:08:07.000 And more than 17 platforms muzzled President Trump, sitting as president in the weeks after January 6th.

00:08:14.000 Twitter has seen a number of suspensions harm conservatives.

00:08:18.000 So the suspensions on Twitter actually go to a 21 to 1 ratio conservatives to liberals.

00:08:25.000 21 to 1. Our good friend Marjorie Taylor Greene, who's going to be the guest on the show tomorrow, was kicked off Twitter for championing weight loss as a COVID strategy.

00:08:33.000 Which, by the way, it totally should be.

00:08:37.000 Google suppressed conservative websites such as The Daily Caller, Breitbart, The Federalist during the 2020 election season.

00:08:43.000 The Federalist was even demonetized.

00:08:46.000 Breitbart saw search visibility decrease by 99% during the 2020 election compared to 2016. Facebook censored Republican members of Congress at a ratio of 53 to 1 compared to Democrats.

00:09:01.000 In October 2021, leaked Facebook documents obtained by the Wall Street Journal showed that they had tools developed after Trump's 2016 surprise win.

00:09:12.000 And in their documents, it shows that when those tools were removed, if they were to be removed, Breitbart would see a 20% increase in traffic.

00:09:21.000 The Washington Times, another right-leaning publication, would see 18% more.

00:09:24.000 The Western Journal, 16% more.

00:09:27.000 The Epoch Times, 11% more.

00:09:29.000 And in fact, one of these tools is still in use today.

00:09:33.000 Now, Heritage made policy recommendations too.

00:09:36.000 Additional reporting requirements.

00:09:38.000 Data privacy, something that's very important.

00:09:40.000 Imposing costs for big tech and their ties to the Chinese Communist Party.

00:09:44.000 Prohibiting government from using social platforms to chill speech.

00:09:47.000 Don't you remember when Jen Psaki was making recommendations to social platforms about what speech they should remove because it wasn't in line with the regime? 0.90

00:09:55.000 Scrutinizing mergers is something very important.

00:09:57.000 I'm going to be talking about that with my guest.

00:09:59.000 Resource is for enforcement of our laws.

00:10:03.000 But at the top of the list, the top of the list for Heritage, Abolish Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act as we know it.

00:10:13.000 Section 230 gives platforms immunities that they weaponize against users.

00:10:19.000 So Heritage recommends, and I'm quoting directly from the report here, quote, strip immunity if tech companies censor content based on political and other views protected by the Constitution.

00:10:29.000 Big tech companies should not receive liability protection against lawsuits when they act as publishers and alter or restrict content based on political opinion, association, or viewpoint.

00:10:42.000 Well, one boomer who does see the grave threat posed by big tech monopolies is Republican Congressman Ken Buck of Colorado.

00:10:51.000 Ken is a former federal prosecutor.

00:10:53.000 He is the leading Republican on the Antitrust Subcommittee, and he joins us now.

00:10:57.000 Ken, thanks so much for being here.

00:10:59.000 Explain to folks that are watching and listening how they should think about So the key, Matt, really is to understand that for more than 100 years, Congress has not acted or has acted in only a small way in the antitrust area.

00:11:21.000 We have left it up to the courts to make the decisions, the important decisions in this area.

00:11:26.000 The bills that we're talking about now, the antitrust bills, have to do with big tech and only big tech.

00:11:32.000 We're not talking about the airline industry, banks or any other part of the economy.

00:11:36.000 But because these big tech companies control the flow of information They impact our democracy in a very fundamental way, in a way that we have to address.

00:11:47.000 And so the bills that we're talking about increase competition.

00:11:51.000 A lot of my friends talk about...

00:11:52.000 So respond to sort of the Mike Givens' point that we don't really need bills.

00:11:55.000 We just need people to unplug from big tech.

00:11:59.000 I mean, you know, we are right now simulcast streaming on...

00:12:02.000 Some of these big tech platforms that are pretty evil, like Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, and the like.

00:12:09.000 So, I mean, what's your response to people that say, the legislative endeavor is a useless one because we can all just make our own choices on our own digital associations?

00:12:18.000 Well, I think we need to make our own choices, and I think we need to make moral choices, but that's not enough.

00:12:23.000 These companies are so big that they crush competition in ways that affect the information flow in this country.

00:12:30.000 So, I don't believe that we need to go in and break them up.

00:12:33.000 I don't think government does a very good job of entering the economy and breaking up companies.

00:12:37.000 But I do think that we need to do everything we can.

00:12:40.000 Aren't we on a bill to break them up?

00:12:41.000 Aren't you and I on a bill with Congresswoman Jayapal that quite literally does that?

00:12:46.000 What it does is it looks at some mergers that occurred before and then unmergers.

00:12:51.000 So you could say breaking up, absolutely.

00:12:53.000 But the reality is that the chances of that bill passing and the coalition that was needed to To bring the other bills forward, that bill passed the House Judiciary Committee.

00:13:06.000 I'm joined by Congressman Ken Buck of Colorado, leading Republican on the House Antitrust Subcommittee on the Judiciary Committee.

00:13:11.000 And we're discussing a package of legislation that we worked very hard on to get through the committee.

00:13:17.000 And now, as typically occurs, as bills move from subcommittee to full committee and then to the floor, there is a narrowing of focus and really...

00:13:27.000 Great deal of attention to what we can get done, what we can get put into law.

00:13:30.000 I'm going to get to that and this legislation that you are really, really putting the fine points on regarding non-discrimination of products with platforms.

00:13:40.000 But first I want to get your perspective on Section 230 because when conservatives are discussing potential legislative reforms, you often hear folks in the House and Senate really zero in on Section 230 of the Communication Decency Act.

00:13:55.000 As I described, it gives these big tech platforms liability that I think they often use to suppress viewpoint and to try to shape the very nature of truth itself.

00:14:06.000 What's your perspective on Section 230?

00:14:08.000 I think that what Heritage said in their white paper is absolutely right.

00:14:13.000 There are three prongs of attack to deal with this issue.

00:14:17.000 One is the antitrust laws, the second is Section 230, and the third is a privacy area.

00:14:22.000 We don't get the job done unless we work on all three areas.

00:14:25.000 So you believe that reforms to Section 230 are necessary but perhaps not sufficient to get to a digital world that is more reflective of our constitutional values?

00:14:37.000 Absolutely right.

00:14:38.000 And the political reality that we're dealing with, Matt, is that we have a president, a Democrat president in the White House, who will not sign a bill that harms the kind of censorship that the Democrats have appreciated in the last few years.

00:14:55.000 So we've got to move forward on the antitrust laws right now because we do have a bipartisan agreement.

00:15:01.000 But it's not just the Democrat that's in the White House.

00:15:03.000 It's often Republicans in Congress Who seem to be the champions of Section 230. I want to play a clip for you.

00:15:09.000 This is Congresswoman Kathy McMorris-Rogers.

00:15:12.000 She is the leading Republican on the Energy and Commerce Committee.

00:15:15.000 This is her perspective on Section 230. I want to be very clear.

00:15:20.000 I'm not for gutting Section 230. It's essential for consumers and entities in the internet ecosystem.

00:15:27.000 Misguided and hasty attempts to amend or even repeal Section 230 for bias or other reasons could have unintended consequences for free speech and the ability for small businesses to provide new and innovative services.

00:15:46.000 That is a position that I don't hold.

00:15:48.000 I think that strong reforms are necessary.

00:15:51.000 I think that you correctly in your antitrust work have segregated out how we treat these large platforms versus how we treat some of these smaller companies.

00:16:02.000 What's your confidence that a Republican majority, which many people expect following the upcoming election, would actually continue the bipartisan work that you and Chairman Cicilline have done on this antitrust legislation?

00:16:19.000 Well, I think that some of these bills will move forward this Congress.

00:16:25.000 I think that some of the ideas from these bills will move forward in future Congresses, and I hope that Republicans embrace antitrust.

00:16:34.000 It is a Republican concept.

00:16:35.000 It began back in the Gilded Age with leaders like Teddy Roosevelt and others who recognized the dangers of the vast accumulations of wealth and power that go along with these monopolies.

00:16:51.000 He's a Teddy Roosevelt Republican, and I'm proud to have him here broadcasting live from our congressional office, Congressman Ken Buck of Colorado.

00:16:59.000 But I do have concerns that Republicans talk tough on Big Tech, but then often end up voting with Big Tech.

00:17:06.000 I think one reason why is that they're addicted to the money that Big Tech donates to them.

00:17:11.000 You've taken a bold stance.

00:17:13.000 What's your perspective on taking funds from Big Tech?

00:17:16.000 Well, I started a pledge that my good friend Matt Gaetz has joined me with and others that we agree not to take money from Big Tech.

00:17:27.000 Why is that important?

00:17:28.000 Well, it's important in large part because of perception.

00:17:31.000 I don't think that a $2,000 donation changes anybody's vote in this place.

00:17:36.000 I do think that the public believes that we are bought and sold every day.

00:17:41.000 And so it's important that we show the public we're not taking money that influences our votes.

00:17:46.000 And we're also saying to these companies, stay home.

00:17:50.000 Let us figure this out.

00:17:51.000 Get out of our face every day on these difficult issues.

00:17:57.000 Campaign finance system as a matter of policy is one vector where I think people get compromised by big tech, but I think it is a far more sweeping endeavor with the intense lobbying, with big tech hiring family members of lawmakers.

00:18:12.000 I mean, how are we supposed to go negotiate with Chuck Schumer on an issue that could harm Facebook when his daughter works at Facebook?

00:18:18.000 And so I'm concerned about that.

00:18:20.000 I'm also concerned that we've got to get the right people who are willing to be super aggressive, not only on the antitrust matters that we're going to discuss, but also on Section 230. And one thing that concerns me is that Kevin McCarthy has built out a I think we've got the press release that we're going to go to.

00:18:44.000 It's Cathy McMorris-Rogers.

00:18:46.000 Now, Jim Jordan's there, too.

00:18:47.000 We know he's a great warrior for free speech, but I worry that some of the people who haven't taken our pledge, who certainly don't hold my views, are being elevated within the Republican conference on this, and it could result in them stifling our work potentially in a majority.

00:19:04.000 But you are not waiting.

00:19:06.000 To get to the majority.

00:19:07.000 You are working right now on very serious legislation that deals with how big tech platforms can discriminate or not discriminate against products.

00:19:17.000 Can you give viewers an update on the status of that legislation and why it's needed?

00:19:22.000 Well, Matt, I just want to back up one second.

00:19:24.000 I tried to get on that committee.

00:19:26.000 Well, you tried to get on the Anti-Big Tech Task Force, and you're not on, and Kathy McMorris-Rogers, who's carrying Big Tech's water, who is embracing Section 230, is one of the leaders?

00:19:37.000 Well, it's interesting, because as the person who was really bringing these antitrust bills forward, I wanted our voice, all of our voices who are in favor of this One remedy, one part of the remedy.

00:19:50.000 And it's not an antitrust.

00:19:52.000 It's not an anti-big tech task force.

00:19:53.000 It's a big tech task force.

00:19:55.000 It should be an anti-big tech task force.

00:19:58.000 Heritage essentially concludes that these people are the death star. 0.66

00:20:00.000 We have to shoot everything we have at them from antitrust, from behaviors, from enforcement.

00:20:08.000 And I think you've laid out a strategy that is multi-vector as well.

00:20:12.000 It is, but all I'm saying is I approach this with an open mind.

00:20:17.000 They just convince me every single time that they're bad.

00:20:19.000 So I'm not looking at this as an anti-big tech task force, but it's so ironic that those of us that have a passion for this area were held off of this task force.

00:20:30.000 Well, once I saw that Kathy McMorris-Rogers was the leader.

00:20:34.000 I knew for certain at that point it wasn't going to be an anti-big tech task force.

00:20:38.000 I mean, frankly, if you take money from big tech, you shouldn't be on the big tech task force.

00:20:43.000 You've got a conflict.

00:20:44.000 Absolutely.

00:20:45.000 So go to your other point.

00:20:46.000 Yeah, let's go to the legislative.

00:20:48.000 So that is kind of the free speech vector.

00:20:50.000 Let's go to the bipartisan legislative vector that you are very hard at work on every day.

00:20:56.000 So just take one simple bill, for example.

00:20:59.000 The state attorney generals came to me and said, we want to be able to sue these big companies and stay in our own state.

00:21:06.000 Because every time they sue, the case miraculously gets moved to the Northern District of California, the backyard of Google and these other companies.

00:21:15.000 And so we started this bill.

00:21:18.000 It passed out of a Judiciary Committee.

00:21:20.000 I've gone to multiple meetings of Republicans and asked people to sign a discharge petition.

00:21:25.000 I have 107 signatures out of 212 Republicans in the United States House.

00:21:31.000 When 48 Attorney Generals of the United States come forward, by the way, California is missing for some reason, I don't know why, but when 48 Attorney Generals come forward and say, we need this legislation, And it is a federalist states' rights bill.

00:21:46.000 Why aren't more Republicans signing up to say, I'll vote for this if it comes to the floor?

00:21:51.000 Why?

00:21:51.000 Answer your question.

00:21:52.000 Do you think it's the lobbying?

00:21:53.000 Do you think it's the political donations?

00:21:54.000 Do you think it's a sense of futility for a discharge petition under Nancy Pelosi?

00:21:59.000 You know what I think?

00:22:00.000 Matt, that you and I and your other guests on this show are not risk-averse.

00:22:05.000 I think many people in this chamber are risk-averse.

00:22:09.000 They don't want to do things.

00:22:10.000 They won't sign what 48 attorney generals want to be able to not even create new laws, but to be able to bring big tech to heel when they violate state law and engage in...

00:22:23.000 And other deceptive or potentially unfair trade practices.

00:22:26.000 And you've got a whole lot of Republicans who you think just aren't up for this fight.

00:22:31.000 Should that discourage voters that if they returned Republicans to the majority that Republicans would actually fight on big tech?

00:22:38.000 I think they should absolutely be discouraged.

00:22:40.000 I think one of the things that voters should ask their candidates...

00:22:43.000 The discouragement hour with Matt Gaetz and Ken Buck.

00:22:45.000 Go ahead.

00:22:45.000 I think you've labeled me that in the past, actually.

00:22:48.000 I think that one of the things that voters should be asking their candidates, have you taken money from big tech?

00:22:56.000 It should be not necessarily the dispositive factor in making a decision, but it is a factor in making a decision.

00:23:02.000 Where are you on big tech?

00:23:03.000 Have you taken money from them?

00:23:05.000 Well, the good news is, from that Ohio Senate debate, these questions are being asked.

00:23:09.000 Now, we're not getting all the right answers yet from all the right candidates, but the questions are being asked.

00:23:14.000 I want to get to this legislation about how platforms treat products in the non-discrimination issue, because a lot of people might think, oh, well, when I pull up Amazon...

00:23:24.000 I'm searching to select something.

00:23:26.000 You know, that is just based on my preferences.

00:23:28.000 But sometimes it's based on Amazon's preferences and their desire to vertically integrate.

00:23:34.000 Explain where that legislation is and the work you're doing on it.

00:23:38.000 So understand that Amazon is a platform.

00:23:41.000 But they also produce their own products.

00:23:43.000 And what they do is that from their platform, they look at sales trends and they see products that are selling real well.

00:23:51.000 Then they go to a manufacturer and produce a similar product and compete against the product that they originally were promoting on their platform.

00:24:01.000 And when they do that, lo and behold, Amazon takes that competitive third party product and drops it to page three and they put their product on page one.

00:24:11.000 We discovered this during the investigation that was really led by you and by Chairman Cicilline with Amazon and a diaper company.

00:24:20.000 I think we've got that clip for viewers.

00:24:23.000 In 2009, your team viewed diapers.com as Amazon's largest and fastest growing online competitor for diapers.

00:24:32.000 One of Amazon's top executives said that diapers.com keeps the pressure on pricing on us, and strong competition from diapers.com meant that Amazon would work harder and harder so that customers didn't pick diapers.com over Amazon.

00:24:46.000 And the customers we're talking about were hardworking families, single parents with babies, and young children.

00:24:52.000 Now because Diapers.com was so successful, Amazon saw it as a threat.

00:24:58.000 The documents that we've obtained show that Amazon employees began strategizing about ways to weaken this company.

00:25:05.000 And in 2010, Amazon hatched a plot to go after Diapers.com and take it out.

00:25:11.000 In an email that I reviewed, and we've got these up on the slides, one of your top executives proposed to you a, quote, aggressive plan to win, end quote, against diapers.com, a plan that sought to undercut their business by temporarily slashing Amazon prices.

00:25:27.000 We saw one of your profit and loss statements, and it appears that in one month alone, Amazon was willing to bleed over $200 million in diaper profit losses.

00:25:40.000 Mr. Bezos, how much money was Amazon ultimately willing to lose on this campaign to undermine diapers.com?

00:25:49.000 Thank you for the question.

00:25:50.000 I don't know the direct answer to your question.

00:25:53.000 This is going back in time, I think, maybe 10 or 11 years or so.

00:25:57.000 You can give me maybe the dates on those documents.

00:25:59.000 But what I can tell you is that the idea of using diapers and products like that to attract new customers who have new families is a very traditional idea.

00:26:12.000 Sure, but let's delve into this a little further.

00:26:15.000 I'm sorry, you know I only have a few minutes here, so I just want to press on.

00:26:19.000 Your own documents make clear that the price war against diapers.com worked, and within a few months it was struggling.

00:26:26.000 And so then Amazon bought it.

00:26:28.000 After buying your leading competitor here, Amazon cut promotions like amazon.mom and the steep discounts it used to lure customers away from diapers.com and then increase the prices of diapers for new moms and dads.

00:26:44.000 Mr. Bezos, did you personally sign off on the plan to raise prices after Amazon limited its competition?

00:26:52.000 I don't remember that at all.

00:26:54.000 Thank you.

00:26:54.000 What I remember is that we matched competitive prices, and I believe we followed diapers.com.

00:27:00.000 Again, this is 11 years ago, so you're asking a lot of my memory.

00:27:04.000 That was Democrat Congresswoman Mary Kay Scanlon in the House Judiciary Committee with Jeff Bezos under oath.

00:27:11.000 Ken, does she have it right?

00:27:13.000 And if so, how does your legislation get at this problem and solve it?

00:27:17.000 She has it right, and it's even more interesting...

00:27:21.000 Part of the story that's really important to understand.

00:27:24.000 Diapers.com, because they had this database of new parents, they were getting into the market of selling baby shampoo and all these other products, and that's what threatened Amazon.

00:27:34.000 So what Amazon did was to take them out with predatory pricing.

00:27:38.000 This bill prohibits that kind of predatory pricing and prohibits the self-preferencing that went on with Diapers.com.

00:27:45.000 We're talking diapers live with Congressman Ken Buck of Colorado, the leading Republican on the House Antitrust Subcommittee.

00:27:52.000 What is the time frame on being able to get legislation, like what you just described, really before the full House for a vote?

00:28:01.000 What's beautiful about these bills, Matt, is that they are not only bipartisan, they are bicameral.

00:28:06.000 And so the Senate is moving in a parallel path with the House.

00:28:10.000 The Senate has passed the non-discrimination bill also, the Senate Judiciary Committee.

00:28:15.000 It is now before the full Senate.

00:28:18.000 We're still finishing the language so that we don't have to go to conference and continue this process.

00:28:23.000 But I think we are very close to the language that we need to move forward.

00:28:27.000 Weeks?

00:28:28.000 Months?

00:28:28.000 No, weeks.

00:28:29.000 So in a matter of weeks, you think?

00:28:31.000 Before the August recess, this bill will pass.

00:28:33.000 The House of Representatives.

00:28:35.000 And the Senate.

00:28:35.000 And be signed by the President.

00:28:37.000 Bold prediction from the bold Congressman from Colorado.

00:28:40.000 Before the August recess, we could see a major change in how all Americans interact with the digital world.

00:28:46.000 And frankly, these platforms should not be able to do what you just saw described there in the diapers matter.

00:28:52.000 Harm small businesses.

00:28:53.000 Harm companies that went and acquired customers and built themselves up, but because you've got to sell on Amazon, they go and just strip that data from you and put you out of business.

00:29:03.000 It's fundamentally unfair.

00:29:05.000 It is damaging to a variety of sectors throughout our economy.

00:29:09.000 We need to fix it.

00:29:10.000 Some Republicans aren't going to vote with us, and they're going to say, Matt, Ken, you shouldn't be working with the Democrats on this.

00:29:18.000 Maybe when we take power and have leverage and can really dictate terms, we should do it.

00:29:22.000 But you guys have been romanced by the Democrats on this thing, and you shouldn't be working alongside Elizabeth Warren and David Cicilline and Jerry Nadler, even if your goals are virtuous.

00:29:35.000 What's your response to that?

00:29:36.000 Well, they're the same Republicans who are taking money from big tech, number one.

00:29:39.000 And number two, when you look around the world...

00:29:42.000 Don't criticize our collegial work alongside Democrats if you're taking money from big tech.

00:29:49.000 The message from Ken Buck.

00:29:51.000 India is suing Amazon over this issue.

00:29:54.000 South Korea, Japan, Europe.

00:29:56.000 It is an issue that is worldwide, and it's an issue that they're looking for the United States to take leadership on.

00:30:02.000 And I think that our colleagues just have to understand something.

00:30:07.000 We don't trust that they're going to do something in the next Congress, and we need to get it done now.

00:30:12.000 And you have recruited a number of the leading Republican thinkers in the Senate to join us as well.

00:30:18.000 Talk about that.

00:30:18.000 Absolutely.

00:30:19.000 Senator Cruz is on board and other senators from the Judiciary Committee have signed on to this legislation.

00:30:24.000 It is not liberal legislation.

00:30:26.000 This is good pro-business, really pro-innovator legislation.

00:30:32.000 And a lot of those innovations we're seeing really destroyed by those practices that we see used from Amazon, from Facebook and the like.

00:30:41.000 I don't think...

00:30:43.000 You should vote against good legislation just because there are also Democrats supporting it.

00:30:48.000 And frankly, I don't even know what the partisan vectors would be on this.

00:30:52.000 You know, this is about fairness in the economy.

00:30:55.000 And frankly, it's encouraging to be working with folks so that the economy actually functions for people who want to play by the rules.

00:31:03.000 So I'll be with Ken.

00:31:04.000 We'll take some criticism from the right.

00:31:06.000 We'll take some criticism from the left, but I think we're building an enduring coalition here that could actually survive this Congress.

00:31:14.000 We should get done what we can get done now.

00:31:16.000 We should look ahead to even stronger bills, but maybe there can be some positive connective tissue that merges among the populist right and the populist left that we could see...

00:31:28.000 Make this place a better place.

00:31:30.000 You ask about the political vector.

00:31:31.000 It just so happens that a whole lot of these people are from the left coast that are opposing this legislation, and that's the reality.

00:31:37.000 We are not going to win the state of California, probably, on the vote, but he's predicted the law will change before the August recess.

00:31:45.000 Another thing that needs to change is just Congress generally.

00:31:48.000 We made a movie about this.

00:31:50.000 Cameras followed Ken Buck and I during all of calendar year 2019. HBO made a movie called The Swamp.

00:31:56.000 Take a quick look.

00:31:59.000 Where has McConnell traditionally been on these war powers issues?

00:32:02.000 I think the best guess of where he's gonna be on this issue is where the president wants him to be on this issue.

00:32:09.000 And the president sees this as an important part of his rebuilding the military, and he's not gonna send the signal to Mitch McConnell to work with us on this.

00:32:19.000 Huh.

00:32:21.000 Oh, what a profile shot.

00:32:22.000 It got the whole jawline.

00:32:24.000 I mean, you got to have the ace cinematographers for that.

00:32:27.000 So the book that you wrote was Drain the Swamp.

00:32:31.000 From that, we were able to make this great movie called The Swamp on HBO. But why did you write the book and what is your principal critique of Congress?

00:32:38.000 Well, I'll tell you why I wrote the book.

00:32:40.000 I was so disappointed in my freshman term in Congress.

00:32:43.000 I came here believing that I could make a difference in this country for the better.

00:32:47.000 We are spending too much money.

00:32:48.000 We're regulating our economy in ways that are really detrimental.

00:32:53.000 I wrote the book and people said, no, that can't be true.

00:32:56.000 We have to pay money to be on a committee.

00:32:59.000 Nobody believes that you have to pay money to be on a committee.

00:33:02.000 You have to pay more than a million dollars to be a chair.

00:33:04.000 I had to pay $75,000 to get on the Armed Services Committee.

00:33:07.000 It's absolutely corrupt because how do most people make their money?

00:33:12.000 They hold receptions.

00:33:14.000 Lobbyists come to the receptions.

00:33:16.000 The lobbyists expect something in return.

00:33:18.000 It's a game that's played.

00:33:19.000 And you just become the money launderer between the special interests and the leadership.

00:33:24.000 That's what I really resented.

00:33:25.000 You know, when I showed up and I thought, so wait a second, I'm going to owe, like, they told me during the course of my freshman term, I owe them $400,000 over that two-year period.

00:33:33.000 I think to myself, where do they expect that I'm going to get it?

00:33:36.000 And then the committee chairman of the Judiciary Committee at the time sits me down and says, well, you've got to find this special interest and play them against that special interest, and then their common ground can be your bank account.

00:33:47.000 And it just struck me as so icky.

00:33:49.000 So you write the book.

00:33:51.000 Do you think that...

00:33:54.000 That the sort of sleaziness of the exchange of favors for money, on legislation, on taking positions on things here, is getting worse or better since you published.

00:34:05.000 Well, I don't think the book helped.

00:34:08.000 It hurt me.

00:34:09.000 I don't think it helped the system, but I think it continues to get worse.

00:34:12.000 Every year I look at it, and you just look at the numbers that the NRCC and the DCCC are raising, and that number keeps going up, and that number is coming from somewhere, and it's from the members having to go out and raise that money.

00:34:27.000 It's been an inordinate amount of time raising money as opposed to developing good policy.

00:34:32.000 Well, let me push back on that a little.

00:34:33.000 I think that there are some elements getting better.

00:34:36.000 You would have never heard of any group rejecting money from almost anyone five, six, ten years ago in this place.

00:34:45.000 Everybody took money from everybody.

00:34:47.000 And you not only have refused money from big tech, but folks like Congressman Stubbe and others have joined in that effort.

00:34:55.000 I take no donations from any lobbyists or any political action committees.

00:35:00.000 Marjorie Taylor Greene does not take any donations from corporate PACs.

00:35:04.000 I don't believe Lauren Boebert takes donations from corporate PACs. 0.98

00:35:07.000 And you wonder like, well, how have we been able to do that?

00:35:10.000 And the answer is by democratizing sort of the policy of political finance across more people.

00:35:18.000 I think the small dollar donor has never meant more than they do today, because if you get enough of them, you don't have to go beg lobbyists for money.

00:35:26.000 And so, you know, again, this isn't a campaign show, but it does speak to the types of policies in the Congress that get attention and get a focus and get placed on committee agendas based on who's given money where.

00:35:39.000 And I mean, you've been very transparent about that.

00:35:41.000 We made the movie about it.

00:35:42.000 And when you say you don't think it helped you, what did you mean by that?

00:35:46.000 Well, I don't think leadership appreciated me pulling back the curtain and showing America exactly what goes on here.

00:35:51.000 But I think the point that you make is absolutely right.

00:35:53.000 Send the right people to Congress.

00:35:55.000 It isn't a matter of what the system is now.

00:35:57.000 It's a matter of what the system could become when the right people show up and work hard.

00:36:02.000 Colorado sent a good one.

00:36:03.000 Ken Buck.

00:36:04.000 Ken, before I let you go, folks continue to be just horrified by these images of mass murder and atrocity in Ukraine.

00:36:13.000 What's your perspective on how that conflict is going and what we've learned from it?

00:36:17.000 Well, one thing we've learned is that the Ukrainian people love their country and are willing to die for it.

00:36:22.000 Their military is putting up a tremendous fight against far superior military force.

00:36:29.000 The other thing that we've learned is that the corruption that's inherent And a communist system is playing out in the military.

00:36:35.000 And I also think that our policies have been detrimental.

00:36:39.000 We need to stop buying oil gas from Russia.

00:36:43.000 We need to make sure that we isolate Russia. 1.00

00:36:45.000 We need to make sure that Europe understands that they need to ante up their portion.

00:36:51.000 You guys have got some more oil and gas we can go find in Colorado, right?

00:36:54.000 We have.

00:36:54.000 Because I don't want to trade blood-stained Russian oil for blood-stained Iranian oil or blood-stained Venezuelan oil.

00:37:00.000 Absolutely.

00:37:01.000 And that's one of the Disgraces that's occurred with our energy policy here.

00:37:05.000 Matt, when our former governor left office, the state government was granting 30 oil and gas permits a month.

00:37:14.000 The new governor takes over in his first year, five total.

00:37:18.000 And now they're wondering why we have a gas shortage.

00:37:20.000 It's clear.

00:37:21.000 They have been attacking fossil fuels for decades in this country.

00:37:25.000 And now the chickens have come home to roost.

00:37:28.000 And it does sound like Colorado's ready to make its patriotic contribution to America's energy needs, if given the opportunity.

00:37:34.000 Ken, how can folks find you on social media?

00:37:37.000 How can folks stay in contact with you, sign up for your newsletter, so that we're able to stay real informed on this important antitrust big tech legislation?

00:37:46.000 I appreciate that.

00:37:47.000 They could go to buck.house.gov.

00:37:49.000 We send out an email whenever I have a big vote in the House, but especially when we're dealing with these antitrust bills.

00:37:57.000 Buck.house.gov.

00:37:58.000 My good friend from Colorado, leading Republican on the House Antitrust Subcommittee.

00:38:03.000 Thanks so much for joining us.

Firebrand - Matt Gaetz - April 06, 2022

Episode 36 LIVE: How to Beat Big Tech (feat. Rep. Ken Buck) – Firebrand with Matt Gaetz

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