Firebrand - Matt Gaetz - Episode 86 LIVE: Crushed (feat. Rep. Ken Buck) – Firebrand with Matt Gaetz

00:00:00.000 Thank you.

00:04:45.000 Welcome to the National Council of the United States.

00:04:47.000 Matt Gaetz was one of the very few members in the entire Congress who bothered to stand up against permanent Washington on behalf of his constituents.

00:04:54.000 Matt Gaetz right now, he's a problem for the Democratic Party.

00:04:57.000 He can cause a lot of hiccups in passing the laws.

00:05:00.000 So we're going to keep running those stories to keep hurting him.

00:05:04.000 If you stand for the flag and kneel in prayer, if you want to build America up and not burn her to the ground, then welcome, my fellow patriots.

00:05:13.000 You are in the right place.

00:05:14.000 This is the movement for you.

00:05:17.000 You ever watch this guy on television?

00:05:19.000 It's like a machine.

00:05:20.000 Matt Gaetz.

00:05:21.000 I'm a canceled man in some corners of the internet.

00:05:25.000 Many days, I'm a marked man in Congress, a wanted man by the deep state.

00:05:29.000 They aren't really coming for me.

00:05:31.000 They're coming for you.

00:05:33.000 I'm just in the way.

00:05:39.000 Welcome back to Firebrand.

00:05:41.000 We are broadcasting live out of room 2021 of the Rayburn House Office Building on the Capitol Complex here in our nation's capital, Washington, D.C., and this episode gives us a deep dive into big tech, what the problems are, what the various things we can do to fight back might be.

00:05:58.000 Ken Buck wrote a great book about it.

00:06:00.000 It's called Crushed.

00:06:02.000 Terrific, terrific policy prescriptions there.

00:06:05.000 Great diagnosis.

00:06:06.000 We're going to get to that in a moment.

00:06:08.000 But Jameson on Rumble...

00:06:11.000 He says that debate on the pledge was hilarious.

00:06:14.000 So we had drama in the House Judiciary Committee today over, of all things, the Pledge of Allegiance.

00:06:22.000 I don't think you could say the Pledge of Allegiance too much.

00:06:24.000 So here's how the story begins.

00:06:26.000 Two years ago, when the Democrats were in control, I thought it might be a nice, unifying thing to put into our Judiciary Committee rules a Pledge of Allegiance at the beginning of every committee meeting.

00:06:40.000 And two years ago when the Democrats were in charge, this is how that went.

00:06:44.000 Take a listen.

00:06:47.000 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

00:06:48.000 I want to extend a welcome to the new committee members.

00:06:51.000 I'm grateful to be back on this august committee.

00:06:54.000 I understand and appreciate the significance and importance of the work that we do.

00:07:00.000 I just think it would be nice if, in the spirit of national unity and national pride, which I know we all aspire to do to a greater extent, that at the beginning of each meeting, the chair or one of the designees of the chair would have the opportunity to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance.

00:07:15.000 We're all aware that in these times it's important for the country to see members of Congress working together on some things, and while I know that we can deal with divisive issues in the committee, it would be my hope that we could start every committee with a great, unifying, patriotic moment.

00:07:32.000 I yield back.

00:07:33.000 The gentleman yields back.

00:07:35.000 I recognize myself to speak in opposition to the amendment.

00:07:39.000 It's unnecessary.

00:07:40.000 The House begins every day with the Pledge of Allegiance.

00:07:46.000 We're covered by that.

00:07:49.000 There's no necessity to say the Pledge of Allegiance twice during the same day.

00:07:56.000 So that was two years ago, and oh my gosh, those masks are ugly.

00:08:00.000 I can't believe Nancy Pelosi made us wear those things.

00:08:02.000 Brian on Facebook thinks that I should not even be able to own a flag or say the Pledge of Allegiance. 0.99

00:08:09.000 What a little fascist you are, Brian. 0.94

00:08:11.000 A note that Michael made just now. 0.98

00:08:13.000 So that brings us to the Republicans regaining control of the Judiciary Committee.

00:08:17.000 And so I figure, well, the Democrats, they voted down the Pledge of Allegiance two years ago.

00:08:23.000 They literally voted it down.

00:08:25.000 And so I thought, well, we're in the majority now.

00:08:27.000 Let me offer it again.

00:08:29.000 And you will not believe the fireworks.

00:08:31.000 This is from today in the House Judiciary Committee.

00:08:34.000 For those of you who are listening to the podcast, you're going to hear me.

00:08:36.000 You're going to hear Jerry Nadler.

00:08:38.000 And then...

00:08:39.000 The terrific voice of Wes Hunt, freshman from Texas.

00:08:44.000 Take a listen.

00:08:46.000 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

00:08:47.000 Here on the august Judiciary Committee, we are charged with vindicating the constitutional rights of our fellow Americans, and our Pledge of Allegiance is a national symbol of pride and unity, and it was a great honor to be able to invite one of my constituents this morning to offer the Pledge of Allegiance, and so my amendment gives the committee the opportunity to begin each of its meetings with the Pledge of Allegiance.

00:09:12.000 It gives our members the ability to I thank the gentleman for his amendment.

00:09:29.000 I support the amendment.

00:09:29.000 Does anyone seek recognition?

00:09:33.000 I would oppose it simply on the grounds that, as members know, we pledge allegiance every day on the floor.

00:09:40.000 And I don't know why we should pledge allegiance twice in the same day to show how patriotic we are.

00:09:47.000 As I said, we pledge allegiance on the floor every day.

00:09:50.000 I don't think this is the most important amendment in the world.

00:09:52.000 But since we do pledge allegiance every day on the floor, I think it's unnecessary.

00:09:57.000 Quite frankly, you are correct, sir.

00:10:00.000 We should be saying the pledge every single day, every single morning, and every single committee.

00:10:07.000 Because when I was in elementary school, that's what I did.

00:10:10.000 And I worked my butt off to be sitting here right now in this room, and the least we can do is to pay homage to the sacrifice of those that come before us to say, you know what?

00:10:21.000 Democrat or Republican, we are in this together.

00:10:24.000 That flag is the one thing that unites us.

00:10:27.000 Let's just take 30 seconds to put all of our differences aside and say we can agree that this country is wonderful, this country has done outstanding things, and that brave men and women were willing to die for it.

00:10:38.000 And that's what sets us apart from every other country in the entire world.

00:10:42.000 Every generation stands up to die and fight for that flag.

00:10:45.000 The least we can do is send the Pledge of Allegiance.

00:10:48.000 I yield back.

00:10:51.000 That was Congressman Wes Hunt, new member of Congress, but a rising star already.

00:10:56.000 And I think it's quite something that Jerry Nadler spoke against my amendment today.

00:11:02.000 Wes Hunt gave that speech, and then subsequently, Jerry Nadler and every single other Democrat on the committee ended up voting with us because they were properly shamed into doing the right and patriotic thing.

00:11:16.000 And speaking of right and patriotic, it was such an honor today.

00:11:21.000 To invite, to give the first Pledge of Allegiance in the House Judiciary Committee for the 118th Congress, one of Northwest Florida's own, Staff Sergeant Beekman, joined me.

00:11:31.000 We had a great time, a great patriotic time.

00:11:35.000 Take a little listen and watch on this video of our experience.

00:11:39.000 It is my pleasure and distinct honor to introduce to the committee Staff Sergeant Corey Ryan Beekman, an American hero and a constituent of mine residing in Pensacola, Florida, and I request that he be an American hero and a constituent of mine residing in Pensacola, Florida, and I request that he be permitted It's not objection.

00:12:00.000 I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

00:12:17.000 Patriotism to me is summed up to one thing.

00:12:20.000 It's men and women that have decided to write a check to the American people, which is redeemable up into their entire life.

00:12:31.000 Just like my fellow team leader back in Iraq.

00:12:35.000 We don't get along left and right side of the aisle, but we need to remember we're all Americans and get back to the core beliefs of what we were and not so divisive, but think of what as a whole.

00:12:50.000 We're going to disagree, but we need to find the middle ground as Americans.

00:12:58.000 I could not have said it better myself, and we are always, always honored to be able to highlight the distinct and elite patriotism, especially of our fellow Northwest Floridians.

00:13:09.000 Great comment from Joe on Rumble says, If Wes Hunt were a stock, I'm buying a bag.

00:13:15.000 And I totally agree with that assessment.

00:13:17.000 But if we want to protect the true values that undergird our Constitution for free speech, we are going to have to take on big tech.

00:13:24.000 Now, one of the people who is at the forefront of that fight is Congressman Ken Buck of Colorado.

00:13:30.000 He stopped by Firebrand just moments ago for a discussion.

00:13:33.000 Take a listen.

00:13:37.000 Mr. Speaker, I rise to discuss the threats facing conservative speech in this country.

00:13:42.000 When members of government take it upon themselves to declare certain speech illegal or undesirable, they effectively silence opposition.

00:13:52.000 This isn't the American way. 0.97

00:13:53.000 We've seen this kind of censorship in Saudi Arabia, Communist China, Soviet, Russian.

00:13:58.000 We never want to see it in America.

00:14:01.000 Tonight, we're gathered to call attention to a shocking coordinated attempt by progressives in business and government to suppress dissent, stifle debate, and threaten free speech.

00:14:17.000 You just heard from one of the greatest advocates for free speech in our country, certainly the best in the House of Representatives.

00:14:24.000 My colleague from Colorado would not want to mix those up, Ken Buck.

00:14:30.000 And last evening, that was Representative Buck leading an hour of debate on a critical issue regarding telecommunications companies and what they're doing to limit access to programming based on viewpoint.

00:14:42.000 Ken Buck also wrote a great book, Crushed.

00:14:45.000 What a title.

00:14:47.000 Big Tech's war on free speech.

00:14:49.000 It's got a terrific forward from Senator Ted Cruz.

00:14:52.000 Great endorsements from Governor Mike Huckabee and David Horowitz as well.

00:14:56.000 Ken, I'm going to get into the book in a moment, but can we start with the hour of debate you led last night?

00:15:02.000 What led you to do that?

00:15:04.000 Well, I'll tell you what led me to do it.

00:15:06.000 DirecTV took Newsmax off.

00:15:10.000 AT&T and DirecTV took One American News off, and it is clearly an attempt by the left to silence the right.

00:15:18.000 We had two sitting members of the United States Congress, members of the Energy and Commerce Committee, who demanded that three networks, Newsmax, One American News, and Fox News, be taken off the air because of their radical positions.

00:15:35.000 When we, as members of Congress, start to silence the other side, we've got real problems.

00:15:41.000 I'm not opposed to any viewpoints on the other side. 0.98

00:15:44.000 I think the more they talk, the dumber they look, and the more we gain. 0.98

00:15:48.000 But to try to silence the other side is just wrong. 0.96

00:15:52.000 Well, and it's very important that you understand that fact pattern.

00:15:55.000 You had Democrat members of Congress who...

00:15:58.000 Don't like the views that they see on Newsmax, One American News, probably Real America's Voice, and any other conservative-leaning channel.

00:16:05.000 And so they sent a threat, an explicit threat, to AT&T Direct TV to try to get these channels canceled.

00:16:13.000 And you know what?

00:16:14.000 It worked.

00:16:15.000 It worked as to OAN, and now we see that very same negative action directed toward Newsmax.

00:16:21.000 And do you think that's part of a broader play that you talk about in your book, Crushed?

00:16:26.000 I do, but Matt, one of the important things is, and I failed to mention it earlier, is that Energy and Commerce has oversight over the Federal Communications Commission, which makes a lot of these decisions.

00:16:37.000 And so, really, they're putting pressure on companies to take off conservative speech, or the Biden administration will act in concert and make sure they're punished.

00:16:49.000 And do you think these companies really feel that pressure is a negative thing, or is it more that the members of Congress basically gaslight a permission structure for these woke corporations to do what they want to do anyway, and that is to limit a conservative viewpoint from being proliferated?

00:17:06.000 Well, you and I will never know because we don't go to Davos.

00:17:09.000 But the folks that go to Davos, that rub elbows, that make these kinds of decisions, they all get together behind closed doors.

00:17:15.000 I don't know who initiates the conversation, but the result is the same.

00:17:19.000 It's censorship.

00:17:20.000 Undeniably, this is part of a broader construct that all Americans need to be aware of.

00:17:25.000 We're going to get into the book in a moment, but here were my thoughts on the cancellations that we saw with AT&T and DirecTV.

00:17:31.000 Take a listen.

00:17:33.000 I remember when I was in school, it was always the liberals, the classical liberals that wanted this robust marketplace of ideas and it was a few conservatives who didn't want you to see certain things or look at certain things or read certain things.

00:17:49.000 And now it's like totally flipped the script because they have such a low view of our fellow Americans.

00:17:55.000 So what are we going to do about it?

00:17:57.000 The Energy and Commerce Committee should be holding hearings on this.

00:18:00.000 The Department of Justice antitrust entities should be looking into whether or not this is too much of a concentration of power and entities like AT&T and DirecTV that are stifling Newsmax and One American News and even Google's Terrible work to try to demonetize the Federalist.

00:18:19.000 And I also believe that in the House Judiciary Committee we should ask these questions seriously and encourage the Department of Justice to take action.

00:18:29.000 Congressman Ken Buck is my colleague on the House Judiciary Committee, and we've worked very closely to try to stop this cartel of big tech.

00:18:37.000 The book is crushed.

00:18:38.000 It's got Google, Facebook, Twitter, Amazon, and Apple on the cover.

00:18:42.000 Ken, which is the most dangerous in your research?

00:18:44.000 Google.

00:18:45.000 And why?

00:18:46.000 They control digital advertising.

00:18:48.000 They control over 90% of the buy side.

00:18:50.000 90% of the sell side and they bought DoubleClick, which is the auction house.

00:18:55.000 If you can imagine, they own the referees, they own the league office, they own both teams playing the football game and you and I are supposed to go to Vegas and place a wager It's absolutely absurd to think that one company can have that type of power in digital advertising if Congress did the right thing and adopted a bill that you and I supported last year, and Mike Lee and many others support on the Senate side.

00:19:23.000 We would actually have a fair digital advertising.

00:19:27.000 It would reduce costs to consumers and be really positive.

00:19:30.000 And let me be straight with our viewers.

00:19:32.000 Ken and I are opposite many of our fellow Republicans often on these issues of antitrust because there is a libertarian streak among some Republicans that would say, gosh, if you don't like what these companies are doing, just don't use them.

00:19:48.000 Create your own company.

00:19:49.000 What would be your response to that critique?

00:19:51.000 Well, first of all, I think that the streak has to do more with taking money than it does with their ideological views.

00:19:59.000 Oh, so you think that the people that vote with Big Tech do so because of the political contributions that Big Tech gives?

00:20:05.000 Not only to them, but to the overall effort.

00:20:08.000 I think that Big Tech has bought the...

00:20:11.000 Many of the think tanks in this town, I think Big Tech has their tentacles in just about every area.

00:20:16.000 They are literally spending over $100 million to influence policy in Washington, D.C. It brings us to my favorite paragraph in the book.

00:20:25.000 I'm reading directly here.

00:20:28.000 They are fully engaged in political patronage, hiring the family members of elected leaders, making targeted political donations to the campaigns of critical members of Congress, buying off various Washington, D.C. think tanks, academic centers, and advocacy groups.

00:20:44.000 And then you cite Meta, the company that owns Facebook, spent $20 million on lobbying in 2021. Amazon spent more than $19 million.

00:20:52.000 The only public company that spent more on lobbying was Blue Cross Blue Shield.

00:20:58.000 Which members of Congress do you think are compromised because their family members have jobs with big tech?

00:21:05.000 Well, I mentioned in the book that Zoe Lofgren's daughter works for, I believe it was Amazon.

00:21:11.000 And Zoe Lofgren is a Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee from California.

00:21:14.000 Not only is she a Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee from California, she represents Silicon Valley, but also when we had a markup on six antitrust bills, she offered at least one poison pill amendment for every bill that we had. 0.99

00:21:29.000 She voted against every bill that we had, and she was working every single caucus on the Democrat side trying to get them to oppose our bills. 0.94

00:21:38.000 And I don't know if she still does, but even Chuck Schumer's daughter worked for Facebook.

00:21:42.000 Oh, no, no, no, my friend.

00:21:44.000 Two daughters.

00:21:44.000 Two!

00:21:45.000 Two daughters work for Big Tech.

00:21:46.000 One works for Facebook, one works for Amazon.

00:21:49.000 We also know that Nancy Pelosi's husband invests in these companies.

00:21:53.000 And it just so happens that before Google was sued last week by the U.S. Department of Justice, two weeks earlier, her husband had sold the Google stock that they owned.

00:22:05.000 Just a coincidence.

00:22:06.000 Unbelievable.

00:22:07.000 And when the American people want to understand why there isn't progress made on these issues that, frankly, should be broadly supported, should be overwhelmingly bipartisan, you see these vectors of influence that are just outright corrupt.

00:22:22.000 You are a constitutional conservative, you're a student of history, and you took some time in the book to talk about how our founders thought about the creative class.

00:22:32.000 Reflect on that a little bit.

00:22:33.000 Sure.

00:22:34.000 Well, it's clear that our founders valued private property rights almost above all other rights, and they recognized that prosperity is directly linked to private property rights.

00:22:48.000 And so they set up very clearly in the Constitution a system for patents, but they also had debates, vigorous debates, about monopolies because of the East India Company and other examples of monopolies that they saw, which were really state-sanctioned monopolies.

00:23:05.000 And they said in an exchange between Madison and Jefferson, oh, this could never happen in a country like America that we're setting up.

00:23:15.000 A monopoly could never take place.

00:23:17.000 The people would, you know, rise up against it.

00:23:19.000 Little did they foresee, one, the Industrial Revolution, but also the revolution that we're going through in our economy now.

00:23:28.000 And in a lot of ways those monopolies are preserved because we've wrapped the apparatus of big government around big tech.

00:23:34.000 And at times it's hard to tell where big government ends and big tech begins because so many of the officials in the FCC and the Department of Justice and the FBI end up going to work for big tech.

00:23:46.000 And so they never want to anger them too much.

00:23:47.000 They always want to be very accommodating because in a lot of cases it's their future employer.

00:23:52.000 Absolutely.

00:23:53.000 And it's clear that if big tech were to actually be challenged, many of the folks would have to go out and earn a real living somehow.

00:24:03.000 Amazon also gets treatment in the book regarding their self-dealing and the way that they vertically integrate to crush small businesses and entrepreneurs.

00:24:14.000 Lay out the Amazon critique.

00:24:16.000 Well, here's what Amazon does. 0.99

00:24:17.000 It has a monopoly on this e-commerce platform that it owns.

00:24:21.000 And by the way, Matt, I think you and I want to celebrate success in this country.

00:24:26.000 We don't want to criticize success.

00:24:29.000 But what they do with their platform is...

00:24:32.000 Excuse me.

00:24:34.000 They recognize a product is selling very well.

00:24:38.000 We'll just call it a widget.

00:24:39.000 They have a contract with a third party widget maker.

00:24:42.000 The widget's selling very well.

00:24:44.000 They go out and they replicate the widget.

00:24:47.000 They then sell their own widget.

00:24:48.000 They take the third-party widget and they put it on page three.

00:24:53.000 They put their widget up on page one.

00:24:55.000 So they are using their platform in an anti-competitive way.

00:25:01.000 They're using their platform to identify a successful product and then make sure that they punish the innovator of that product, punish the investors in that product, and take every last cent that they can out of the market for their own product.

00:25:17.000 And Jeff Bezos' response to that was, well, people like Amazon.

00:25:20.000 Matter of fact, they like Amazon a lot more than they like Congress.

00:25:23.000 Why shouldn't we just submit to our big tech overlords? 0.98

00:25:26.000 If over 80% of people are saying that they believe that Amazon would do the right thing, and certainly Congress does not reach that threshold, who are we to critique them?

00:25:35.000 Well, I'll tell you who we are.

00:25:36.000 We're individuals that understand that at some point China catches up.

00:25:41.000 And China catches up because they have low labor rates, they have very low environmental regulations, and so low energy costs.

00:25:48.000 And the only way we stay ahead of China and others in the world economy is to out-innovate. 0.99

00:25:53.000 And if you take the incentive to innovate away, if you take the investment in innovation away, we lose.

00:26:00.000 You're very critical of Apple in the book as well.

00:26:03.000 You've got all kinds of interesting fruit puns.

00:26:05.000 But you talk about the app marketplace.

00:26:09.000 And Elon Musk has described this app marketplace that Apple controls as a functional tax on the internet.

00:26:17.000 You know, a 30% tax on all things that people are using to interface with the digital world.

00:26:22.000 How should people think about the app marketplace in antitrust terms or in government power terms?

00:26:29.000 Well, if you look at Spotify, Spotify is paying a 30% surcharge because Apple has a product that competes with Spotify, Apple Music, on the App Store.

00:26:43.000 And so if you dare to compete with an Apple product on their platform, they are going to charge you.

00:26:49.000 So Spotify costs $12 on the App Store.

00:26:53.000 Apple Music chart costs $9 a month and actually people are still choosing Spotify because it's a better product even at that cost.

00:27:03.000 But Apple is going to make money off of that better product because they're on the App Store.

00:27:08.000 Now one great example of what happens with Apple is Parler.

00:27:12.000 After the January 6th ride in the United States Capitol, the next day Apple took Parler off the App Store.

00:27:21.000 Within two days, Amazon Web Services refuses to service the web contract with Parler, and Parler is basically shut down.

00:27:30.000 It's shut down because it is a conservative voice in the Twitter sphere.

00:27:35.000 And so we know that people were using Facebook on January 6th.

00:27:40.000 We know that people were using Twitter.

00:27:41.000 They weren't punished.

00:27:42.000 The company that was punished was Parler, and it started with Apple.

00:27:47.000 The book is crushed.

00:27:49.000 The author is Congressman Ken Buck and he really takes a lot of these big tech companies to task.

00:27:54.000 He calls Twitter an ideologically driven cartel.

00:27:58.000 Now obviously we're seeing some changes at Twitter now.

00:28:00.000 Those changes were probably happening in real time as you were writing the book.

00:28:04.000 How do you assess the Twitter environment?

00:28:07.000 Today, I assess it as a positive move and actually pressure on these other companies.

00:28:13.000 The great thing of what Elon Musk has done is he's really brought back the curtain and exposed the mindset of these wokesters in Silicon Valley.

00:28:24.000 You call them wokesters?

00:28:25.000 I call them woketopians. 1.00

00:28:26.000 Okay, Woketopians, I'll adopt your phrase. 0.99

00:28:30.000 They are people who just disagree with our point of view.

00:28:34.000 And what's so beautiful about this monopoly, Matt, is that on the one hand, they have a monopoly in the business marketplace, and they use the same tactics...

00:28:45.000 To try to have a monopoly in the marketplace of ideas.

00:28:49.000 They don't want you buying someone else's product, so they actually destroy the competition.

00:28:53.000 They don't want you believing someone else's ideology, so they try to destroy that ideology.

00:29:00.000 The information we learned from the Twitter files about how government tried to manipulate viewpoint and content, how internal executives and internal entities were set up to silence conservatives, to limit certain viewpoints.

00:29:17.000 How pervasive do you think that is across all of these major tech companies, or do you think there's something different and unique about Twitter?

00:29:24.000 No, I don't think there's something different, unique.

00:29:26.000 I think it's often the same people that are moving between companies that are helping to form the culture in those companies.

00:29:33.000 Every one of these companies, I give examples in the book about how They all have suppressed speech.

00:29:40.000 Jim Banks from Indiana criticized Time Magazine for giving the Woman of the Year Award to a biological male, and they took him off the platform.

00:29:52.000 Now, you can agree with that.

00:29:53.000 You can disagree with it.

00:29:55.000 He has a right to speak his mind, and Rand Paul was taken off the platform for questioning Dr. Fauci in a Senate hearing.

00:30:06.000 In a public Senate hearing, he's taken off the platform for that kind of speech.

00:30:11.000 We know that...

00:30:13.000 Shelby Steele had a documentary, What Killed Michael Brown?

00:30:17.000 And that documentary was taken off of the Amazon site as a result of it being Black History Month, and it didn't fall in the examples of black history that Amazon wanted to promote.

00:30:33.000 So every one of these companies has engaged in this same type of censorship because The speech disagrees with their view of the world.

00:30:43.000 It's a tremendous diagnosis of the problem we have, how we got here, how it is fundamentally anti-American when we look at the values and principles that Really organized our concept of freedom and speech and expression.

00:31:00.000 Remedies.

00:31:00.000 I want to talk about that.

00:31:02.000 And let's sort of go through it constitutionally.

00:31:04.000 I mean, you look at Article I powers, the powers of the United States Congress, the legislative branch.

00:31:09.000 And your indictment is that the legislative branch is essentially bought off one way or the other.

00:31:15.000 Do you have hope that...

00:31:18.000 Through Article I powers, we will be able to reach some sort of vindication for free speech, or is the system so corrupted by money and influence and compromise that that is less likely?

00:31:31.000 Well, if we could back up just a second.

00:31:33.000 There's a problem when monopolies control steel and oil and banks.

00:31:40.000 There's a bigger problem when they control information.

00:31:42.000 Yes.

00:31:43.000 When they control information, we're talking about a threat to our democracy.

00:31:46.000 Obviously, the control of steel means that steel prices will go up and we may have a lower quality steel.

00:31:54.000 When they control information, we really have to be concerned about them putting their thumb on the scale in an election.

00:32:01.000 So first of all, I think it's critical that we talk about a monopoly over information.

00:32:06.000 But secondly, the idea that somehow we could pass a law in the 1800s and we could pass a law, the Clayton Act in 1913, and then Congress steps back and we say, you know, the courts can fix all of this.

00:32:22.000 We'll just let them develop the case law for antitrust.

00:32:26.000 That's now what the Constitution says.

00:32:28.000 Article 1 writes the laws.

00:32:29.000 We have a new economy now involving e-commerce, involving searches on the internet, involving social media.

00:32:38.000 We have an obligation to write the law, not just to say to the courts, go fix this.

00:32:44.000 An obligation, but do we have the capability?

00:32:47.000 I believe we do.

00:32:48.000 We had the capability in the Industrial Revolution, and I believe we have the capability now.

00:32:53.000 I believe what we have to do is to make sure that we give information, just as I'm trying to do in this book, and just as you and I tried to do in the Judiciary Committee and on the floor, we give information to people and hope that That they ask the right questions and come up with the right answers.

00:33:10.000 And I have faith.

00:33:11.000 We convinced 39 of our colleagues, 37 of our colleagues, to vote for antitrust bills on the floor.

00:33:18.000 Our leadership never expected a vote that high on those bills.

00:33:22.000 And I believe the momentum will just keep increasing.

00:33:26.000 The momentum at times seems far too slow.

00:33:30.000 And you point out the Pelosi familial stock trades as potentially one animator of that speed.

00:33:37.000 And it's certainly troubling, and I certainly hope that's not the case.

00:33:40.000 But I mean, it's right before our very eyes.

00:33:43.000 And I don't share your optimism.

00:33:44.000 I actually think that Big tech has become more powerful than any government that has ever existed in all of human history, and the power they have over the United States Congress is sickening and debasing and ultimately debilitating to a lot of our common sense legislative efforts.

00:34:03.000 I also want to talk about opportunities that exist sort of through Article II powers and the executive.

00:34:11.000 I mean, should Joe Biden be doing more on this?

00:34:14.000 What could a visionary administration or president do in the absence of Congress as a helpful hand?

00:34:21.000 Well, I love the fact that Joe Biden has the Democrats in control of the House, in control of the Senate, obviously, in control of the executive branch for two years.

00:34:32.000 And within weeks after that control ended, he writes an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal calling on Republicans and Democrats to work together to solve this big tech antitrust issue.

00:34:44.000 If he wanted it solved, he had the ability to ask Speaker Pelosi, Leader Schumer, to get it solved.

00:34:51.000 Well, I mean, he has blood on his hands on a lot of these issues because it was members of the Biden administration that were trying to manipulate viewpoints on big tech during the coronavirus pandemic.

00:35:00.000 So they don't want to divorce big government from big tech.

00:35:04.000 They actually want to meld the two to a greater extent, which actually kind of sounds a lot like China to me and not the United States.

00:35:12.000 But if the right person...

00:35:14.000 We're guiding the decisions of the administration.

00:35:16.000 Lay out a vision for what could be done with FCC appointments, with FEC appointments, to try to get us on the right path.

00:35:26.000 Matt, I'm not even sure we need to have a vision.

00:35:28.000 I think we can just look at the Trump administration.

00:35:30.000 The Trump administration, along with the state attorney generals, engaged in a series of lawsuits against Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook.

00:35:41.000 That are very effective.

00:35:43.000 Now, it takes a period of time to make that happen, but the Federal Trade Commission and the Antitrust Division both engaged in those lawsuits.

00:35:51.000 I think in the next couple of years, we're going to see dramatic Supreme Court decisions that are going to strike these companies.

00:35:59.000 Yeah, leading right into my next question about the role of the courts in this, oftentimes litigation around these issues does not get very far because there are special immunities that the United States Congress has given these technology companies that shield them from the very same liability that would append to,

00:36:15.000 you know, Fox News or CNN or any website or local news channel or local newspaper, some believe that stripping those immunities will be sufficient, not just necessary but sufficient to resolve the issue because then trial lawyers will feast on the carcasses of big tech and bring them to heel.

00:36:38.000 Do you believe that repealing Section 230 would be sufficient to achieve that objective?

00:36:42.000 Absolutely not.

00:36:43.000 No, I think what's necessary is competition.

00:36:46.000 And there are really three areas.

00:36:49.000 Antitrust, Section 230, and privacy laws.

00:36:52.000 All three have to be used to accomplish our goals.

00:36:55.000 But Section 230 is a good place to start.

00:36:59.000 These companies are using the phrase otherwise objectionable as a shield to hide behind and in a way to punish people whose views they disagree with.

00:37:08.000 The real issue you mentioned, you know, CNN and Fox News and others, we don't object when CNN comes up with a story with a particular viewpoint.

00:37:19.000 Because we have Fox, we have Newsmax, we have One American News and so many others that can offer a differing viewpoint.

00:37:27.000 We don't object when the Washington Post and the New York Times has a particular viewpoint.

00:37:31.000 Because the Wall Street Journal, the New York Post will have a different viewpoint and in the marketplace of ideas will have competition.

00:37:38.000 When Google controls 94% of searches in America and changes its algorithm to punish conservatives and specifically Donald Trump in June of 2020 and benefit Joe Biden, that hurts because we don't have competition.

00:37:54.000 We don't have five Googles and seven Facebooks to allow the American public, the consumer, Power over freedom is one of the themes we see throughout the book, and it's precisely reflected in that.

00:38:08.000 And we have the power to do something about it.

00:38:10.000 Now, there was legislation that was passed to deal with some of these issues.

00:38:15.000 There were other bills that you and I supported that did not pass the House.

00:38:19.000 So talk about the legislation that did get through the House and what effect you think that will have on the conditions you describe in Crushed.

00:38:27.000 Sure.

00:38:27.000 There were three bills that passed the House.

00:38:29.000 One was a bill that allowed state attorney generals to file a lawsuit against Big Tech, an antitrust lawsuit against Big Tech, and keep that lawsuit in their home state.

00:38:42.000 A lot of these lawsuits are getting moved to the Northern District of California because they, quote unquote, have a special expertise in big tech.

00:38:50.000 What they have is the backyard of big tech.

00:38:53.000 The Northern District of California, Silicon Valley is in that district, jury pool.

00:38:58.000 It works for many of these companies, drawn from that area.

00:39:03.000 Home field advantage, as one might call it.

00:39:05.000 I think that's an appropriate way to call it.

00:39:07.000 So we passed a bill that said that if you sue somebody in Texas because they do business in Texas, that lawsuit can stay in Texas.

00:39:15.000 The second bill that we passed was a bill that actually gives more resources to the Antitrust Division and the Federal Trade Commission.

00:39:22.000 And the third bill was a bill that was sort of added on To get some support in the Senate, it was a bill from Senator Hawley that basically said that if a company has a tie to Communist China, that tie has to be disclosed at the time that a merger is being reviewed.

00:39:41.000 And one of the critiques that some of our colleagues make of our efforts is, well, you know, if you don't want Amazon to be the biggest, baddest, most vertically integrated innovation quashing company on the planet Earth, do you want Alibaba to win?

00:39:53.000 You know, do you want these Chinese companies to supplant U.S. technology?

00:39:59.000 How do you respond to that?

00:40:01.000 Well, they will most assuredly win if we don't encourage competition in the American marketplace, because American companies will get big, fat, and lazy, and we will lose ultimately in the marketplace.

00:40:13.000 The way to beat China is not to look more like China, and that's the problem with this... 0.84

00:40:18.000 Big tech enterprise and a captive government, in a lot of ways, to that enterprise.

00:40:23.000 If that's the winning model, China's going to do it better than we are. 0.99

00:40:28.000 And so we have to have a model that allows innovation, that allows development of ideas, and that doesn't permit these companies to engage in anti-competitive behavior.

00:40:36.000 I do not have confidence in the Congress to be able to address these issues to the degree that is necessary, given the rising power of big tech.

00:40:45.000 I see an executive branch right now that is not only not helpful, they're in on the grift.

00:40:51.000 And you describe a court system that previously they were able to play to this geographic advantage.

00:40:58.000 And then similarly, you know, we have these immunities that still exist.

00:41:03.000 So, I mean, people need to understand the diagnosis there.

00:41:06.000 And it brings us to sort of, I think, the fourth leg of the stool, and that's consumer choice.

00:41:11.000 And personal choices.

00:41:12.000 And in your case, political choices because you led on not taking political donations from these companies.

00:41:21.000 You don't use YouTube.

00:41:22.000 You don't utilize these companies in your daily activities.

00:41:27.000 To what extent is consumer choice a powerful tool to drive change?

00:41:32.000 Ask the civil rights leaders of the 50s, 60s, and 70s how powerful it is to boycott racist businesses.

00:41:40.000 Ask people just how powerful it is in their neighborhood when they identify a wrong and they engage in an economic boycott.

00:41:49.000 It is very powerful, and it's really what we can do.

00:41:53.000 If nothing else, it makes you feel good.

00:41:55.000 You know, when you don't use Google and you use DuckDuckGo or some other search engine, it may take an extra couple seconds to get the result that you want, but it feels good.

00:42:04.000 And when you don't order your toilet paper for overnight delivery, you drive to a store or you wait two or three days, It feels good and folks can turn off the tracking devices on their phone and drive these companies crazy.

00:42:19.000 If you're not using Waze or Google Maps to go someplace, turn the tracking device off and you will deny them of information that they absolutely need that they sell to advertisers.

00:42:33.000 You have a say.

00:42:34.000 You have agency in this.

00:42:36.000 That was remarkable.

00:42:37.000 Speaker McCarthy has talked at some length about data privacy and data portability.

00:42:43.000 He seems to understand the issue intellectually, that the more of our own information we get control over, the more we have agency in the digital world.

00:42:55.000 How do you assess the role of some of those data bills and privacy bills, likely to go through the Energy and Commerce Committee, not our Judiciary Committee, but do you think they can make a dent?

00:43:05.000 I do, and let's just describe what data portability is.

00:43:09.000 In 1996, when the Telecommunications Act passed Congress, Congress gave consumers the ability to take their cell phone number From AT&T to Verizon or Verizon to T-Mobile.

00:43:22.000 And that opened up the marketplace where people weren't concerned about changing and looking for a better plan and a less expensive plan.

00:43:31.000 What we're talking about is when you search for something on Google, you own that information and you can take that information to another search engine and you can get paid for that information As the owner of that information, and that portability is essential to opening up the marketplace and allowing competition in this area.

00:43:49.000 I think that the Speaker understands that.

00:43:53.000 I think a lot of other Republicans understand it, and hopefully we can move some of that legislation.

00:43:58.000 And from a structural standpoint, it converts the user from the product to the client.

00:44:06.000 Absolutely.

00:44:07.000 You know, in a lot of ways right now, technology is cheap to access because you aren't the one being served.

00:44:13.000 You are quite literally the product.

00:44:16.000 Data is being extracted from you, sold elsewhere, and we've even heard liberal commentators like John Oliver talk about the importance of data privacy and Limiting the extent to which all of our searches and all of our places we go for barbecue can't be just stripped and then placed into the marketplace without not only not our consent, not even our knowledge.

00:44:41.000 And these executives at these companies have said publicly, on the record, I can tell you what you're going to think before you even think it.

00:44:50.000 That kind of arrogance is scary, but it's accurate.

00:44:53.000 And we need to make sure that as consumers, we're getting a benefit for that information.

00:44:59.000 So I got to know, are you selling Crushed on Amazon?

00:45:03.000 Absolutely.

00:45:04.000 Right.

00:45:04.000 So you haven't totally decamped.

00:45:06.000 No, no, no.

00:45:06.000 I don't use Amazon.

00:45:07.000 I don't buy a single product from Amazon.

00:45:11.000 You're selling one?

00:45:11.000 If Amazon wants to promote this book, I'm all in favor of having them promote the book and having people read about what an evil company Amazon is.

00:45:20.000 Yeah, I don't know that they'll be promoting it, and I don't know that their algorithm is going to drive people to your book, but it is an interesting commentary on the market power that a company like Amazon has.

00:45:31.000 I mean, if anybody writes a book, you're going to get about 75% to 85% of your sales through Amazon.

00:45:37.000 That's how people purchase this type of material to learn more.

00:45:41.000 So even as we're critiquing Amazon now, It is hard to unwind from it as you and I are having this discussion.

00:45:47.000 It is being live streamed over many of the companies that you're dictating.

00:45:51.000 And so I believe that the development of alternate pathways and tools, DuckDuckGo, we really promote Rumble as a way for folks to get video content.

00:46:03.000 You almost have to stay on multiple battlefields so that the argument can hopefully get through to some extent given the tremendous headwinds we face.

00:46:13.000 Well, we can't get off the grid and try to convince a majority of Americans that we're right.

00:46:17.000 And I also have an iPhone because I really don't have too much choice outside of the two major phone manufacturers to make that decision.

00:46:28.000 So I think there are things that we have to do practically.

00:46:32.000 But when we have a choice, we should absolutely make that choice.

00:46:36.000 It's a quick read.

00:46:37.000 You can knock it out on a good weekend afternoon.

00:46:40.000 You're going to get history.

00:46:42.000 You're going to get law.

00:46:43.000 You're going to get politics.

00:46:45.000 And you're going to get great information about technology and telecommunications.

00:46:49.000 Ken Buck, thank you so much for writing this book, for being a warrior in the cause, for free speech, and for joining me on Firebrand.

Firebrand - Matt Gaetz - February 01, 2023

Episode 86 LIVE: Crushed (feat. Rep. Ken Buck) – Firebrand with Matt Gaetz

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