In this episode of the Fresh Up Podcast, we talk about Capitalism vs Communism. We also introduce our special guest, Mo, and talk about the history of capitalism and communism in the United States. We also talk about a fight that happened in the elevator and how we handled it. Thanks to our sponsor, Upside, for sponsoring this episode. This episode is sponsored by Upside. The Upside app gets you cash back on daily essentials like gas, groceries, and dining. There are over 100,000 gas stations, grocery stores, and restaurants on the Upside App, ensuring that cash back is always around the corner. And yes, you can transfer straight to your bank. Frequent Upside users earn an average of $340 per year. To find out how much you could earn, click the link in the description, download Upside and use our promo code FNFNF and claim an extra 25 cents back on your first tank of gas. Next, claim an offer for as much as $1,000 worth of gas on the First Tank. Then pay as little as $5 on your usual credit card, debit card, and you can get as much cash back as you ve paid in the usual way when you use your credit card. You re getting paid 3 times more cash back with Upside! You can earn an extra $35 a week on your First Tank, and get paid up to $340 a month! when you re paying as much on your gas tank! when I m paying my credit card in the app, I get paid as much more than $3,000 in the day I m reading this episode, I ll be paying you like that. You re gonna get paid three times more than you re reading this. episode, you ll get paid a lot of cash back when I'm paying it in the second episode, and there s a chance to get paid like like like that! - Phoned in a second episode of FreshUp Podcast, Phed Phededs, I m not even getting a discount on my phone, I can t wait to read it! Thanks Phed, Phoned In, I'll be back next week, Pheeded, I'm reading it out, so I can't wait to send it to you guys! P.O. - P.S. we are live! I hope you like it! - Andrew Wilson - Mo
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00:27:00.000So come over and show a little bit of love to Fresh and Fit.
00:27:04.000I'm Hazaldeen, the host of the Infrared Show.
00:27:08.000It was a political live streaming show that was mainly on Twitch before I got banned, moved to YouTube, and is now on kick.
00:27:16.000I'm also the executive chairman of the American Communist Party, which is a recently launched Communist Party that consists of myself, Jackson Hinkle, the Midwestern Marx crew, and several others on the executive board.
00:27:31.000Is that where you did that recent speech?
00:27:34.000No, the speech I did was in Dearborn, and that was for the Institute for a Free America, which is a different thing.
00:27:41.000So I guess I don't want to know, what's your stance on communism itself?
00:27:52.000So I regard myself as a capital C communist, which is the real deal, a real type of Marxist-Leninist orthodox, just as in the Soviet Union with Stalin and China, with Mao, China today, communist states in general around the world.
00:28:07.000And typically this is something that is foreign and not very prevalent in the Western countries, in the United States in particular, because here the self-identified communists are mainly just liberals who are becoming increasingly radicalized in the direction of wherever the Democratic Party is going.
00:28:24.000I'm a communist in the sense that the communism in the sense of leading nations through industrialization and focusing on the development of the productive forces and focusing on consolidating sovereignty and political dictatorship In such a way that can't be usurped by the interests of the capitalist class.
00:28:47.000So this type of communism is not very much...
00:28:50.000The history of it in the United States is limited.
00:28:55.000The golden age of the Communist Party here was in the 1930s, right?
00:28:59.000And then with the Cold War, the onset of the Cold War...
00:29:03.000They began to persecute them, and then they basically became irrelevant.
00:29:07.000And then afterwards, you had the rise of liberalism, you know, left liberals.
00:29:12.000You had so-called leftism, which was mainly based on students rather than the industrial workers that were the base of historical communism.
00:29:23.000So, Jackson, Hinkle, and I, and others, we represent a revived communist tendency in the United States.
00:29:29.000We're trying to restore something that has been lost in this country, which is a type of politics that's based in the working class, based in the interests of the common people, and which brings to the fore the economic question, the property question,
00:29:53.000Okay, so first we're going to have opening statements.
00:29:55.000It's going to be five minutes where they're going to be able to...
00:29:58.000This is going to be kind of a broad debate.
00:29:59.000Obviously, we talked about capitalism versus communism, but there's going to be other things as well because the topic is what caused the issues in the United States, and obviously that's going to come into play and a multitude of other factors.
00:30:09.000So we're going to have opening statements, five minutes each to state their arguments, and then we're going to have...
00:30:14.000Five rounds, three minutes each, where they're gonna, you know, be able to make their arguments, you know, uninterrupted, of course.
00:30:19.000And then we're gonna have three rounds, five minutes each, where it's open dialogue and they're able to kind of go back and forth and speak at the same time.
00:30:27.000So, who wants to go first, by the way?
00:31:04.000So I think that that's a fair assessment.
00:31:07.000So we're getting to what is the root cause in America of the problem.
00:31:11.000It comes down to the founding of the Enlightenment principles of the United States.
00:31:16.000Which, in this founding of these Enlightenment principles, we had no American identity.
00:31:23.000There was no American identity which we were able to adopt.
00:31:27.000The egalitarian and Enlightenment principles have led to the current kind of progressive, I would almost say, zeitgeist that you see now.
00:31:38.000So to go through what these principles are for egalitarianism, the idea that all men are created equal, for instance, these are all enlightenment principles.
00:31:48.000Now, Haas, he kind of adheres to a philosopher named Hegel.
00:31:52.000Hegel was part of the idea of many of these enlightenment principles, in fact.
00:31:57.000I reject Enlightenment principles categorically, and I believe that those Enlightenment principles are the direct route.
00:32:06.000Now, that said, I also think that Bolshevik murderous Jewish communists killed...
00:32:42.000And that is part of the egalitarian principle of the United States, which was founded on revolution.
00:32:48.000So I think that this is a huge problem inside of this ideology.
00:32:53.000Now I'm going to move, because it's such a broad topic, I have to kind of move around a little bit.
00:32:58.000To kind of understand the central communist plot, the idea is...
00:33:05.000And Marxist theory is pretty broad, but the general idea here is a continual social revolution until we get to the point where we get it right.
00:33:26.000It's language academic prattle that relies on communist linguistics without actually speaking plainly what it is that you mean to say.
00:33:36.000So what I'm asking Haas to do tonight for me and for the audience is to just speak very plainly.
00:33:42.000And the reason that I'm asking that is because, and you know this, there's tons of communists who do obfuscation by moving towards Marx's principles, and they have distinct meanings which are different than the meanings how we see them in the commons.
00:34:45.000It obfuscates the ability to communicate words clearly and get the meaning across.
00:34:49.000However, I think an exception should be taken, semantically speaking, for something that's actually not necessarily Marxism.
00:34:58.000Let's just begin with Christianity and the Lord's Prayer.
00:35:01.000Let's begin with the etymology of the word sin in Christianity itself.
00:35:05.000And scholars will find that etymologically and linguistically, they'll find that the word sin can be traced back to debt.
00:35:14.000And the Lord's Prayer, which says, forgive us of our sin, and Jesus, who announces...
00:35:20.000In his first sermon, the Jubilee Year, which was a cyclical...
00:35:25.000A cyclical tradition among the Jews to cancel the debt every so often.
00:35:31.000The core of the whole thing was about debt, and that's what really my view about the chief contradiction or the problem of America stems from.
00:35:41.000I mean, we could go to the Enlightenment and defining exactly what that is, I think, would be difficult.
00:35:47.000Although we could use Kant's definition and so on.
00:35:49.000But in my view, the root cause of America's decay and the root cause of America's problem is actually very simple.
00:35:56.000It's the fact that our total liabilities have far surpassed our assets.
00:36:01.000There is no way that the total national debt in the United States could ever imaginably ever be paid off.
00:36:07.000The amount of personal household debt that Americans have could never be paid off.
00:36:13.000And we are faced with a problem where the debt is being used as a pretext for the 1%, an extremely small minority of exploiters and capitalists, to gobble up and seize all of the assets and all of the wealth of this country on the basis of them being collateralized in the first place.
00:36:31.000So, to me, the real root cause of the problem Is that we are being held to an economic principle, namely the strict kind of narrow terms of a very ruthless form of capitalism,
00:36:47.000and we're being crucified and penalized for having basic economic needs that we need met, not only at the level of public spending, but at the level of individuals who need to get by and make a living for themselves.
00:36:59.000And just because of that, they're being punished with endless and self-multiplying An unpayable debt.
00:37:07.000And to me, communism, if you want to simplify it as far as how I see it in this country, communism means cancelling the debt.
00:37:14.000This is precisely what those murderous Bolsheviks did, which is what incurred the response of every major great power on planet Earth invading Revolutionary Russia in 1917, 1918, because what was Lenin's first act?
00:37:31.000The Tsar had accumulated all of this debt from the French banks in order to finance the limited extent of industrial development that he was partaking in, and the debt was unpayable.
00:37:43.000It was immiserating the Russian people, the Russian peasants.
00:37:52.000I don't think the elites really care about your ideology as much as they care about what you do.
00:37:57.000And the one thing consistently we see across history is that when you cancel the debt, when you raise the question, the property question of debt, you are touching upon something that they regard as very sensitive.
00:38:08.000You're touching upon the very source of the power of the international capital.
00:38:12.000That's the thing that allows them to gobble up and steal and loot the material wealth of all mankind.
00:38:19.000And to me, communism is already in the Bible.
00:38:24.000You know, it's not necessarily something that begins just with Marx.
00:38:27.000The revolutionary message of Jesus Christ, and I do regard him as a revolutionary, was to cancel the debt.
00:38:47.000I mean, if you look at the Liberty Bell, it uses a term, a Hebrew term.
00:38:54.000You'll have to forgive me, because I don't think I remember it exactly.
00:38:56.000Something durier, or something like that?
00:38:59.000Anyway, the term refers to the emancipation of debt servants.
00:39:04.000It refers to the emancipation of people who had to pledge their families, their land, and even themselves, because they couldn't pay back debt to the creditors.
00:39:12.000So this is even on the Liberty Bell that we have here in the United States, using that term.
00:40:01.000From this point forward, we're going to do five three-minute rounds, and then we're going to do three five-minute rounds.
00:40:07.000And then we're going to have a Zoom call after this, by the way, guys, so you guys in the Q&A and you guys can interact with us and have a good discussion with the Cals Club guys.
00:40:43.000There's certainly tons of systems and models which could be used that are non-Keynesian to do this.
00:40:48.000So I have no idea where their criticism is.
00:40:51.000If you're saying that debt can be crippling to a nation, I totally agree with you.
00:40:55.000However, communist nations in the past, including Stalin's nation of Russia, was also under crippling debt.
00:41:02.000I mean, communism did not prevent it at all from incurring a massive amount of debt.
00:41:06.000Which also led to financial collapse, in fact, because it didn't have access to external capital and needed it very desperately, in fact, I would say, in order to keep its country propped up.
00:41:16.000So I would kind of categorically reject first in term of we need communism to cancel the debt.
00:41:44.000Maybe I can start the inquiry there so that we can just kind of dive into it without kind of bloviating for three minutes so we can just get right into it.
00:41:58.000I think that the problem, though, is that even if we accepted face value that Andrew Jackson somehow, in this sweeping way, acted against the creditor class, which I think is false.
00:42:07.000I think what he actually did was he got rid of the Hamiltonian, which is more like a national bank, not necessarily a central bank like the Federal Reserve, which is strictly privately owned.
00:42:17.000And that could also be interpreted as a pro-creditor move.
00:42:19.000But even Andrew Jackson, what is he regarded as historically?
00:42:24.000So what communism and Marxism will often talk about, politically speaking, is that society is divided by a class struggle.
00:42:31.000And if you want to act against the interests of creditors, you have to have your base of support somewhere.
00:42:36.000And if your base of support is not in the people who have all the money and have all the resources and have all the wealth, it seems like at face value you're going to be screwed.
00:42:44.000But actually, the multitudes, the majority of people, the working class, that's a base of support that could be relied upon to achieve goals that are in favor of them, right?
00:42:55.000So that's an advantage that can be drawn.
00:42:57.000So part of the historical class struggle is always this struggle between a ruling class and the masses, which are part of a different class, right?
00:43:06.000And in the case of Andrew Jackson and other cases of populist leaders, I mean, for example, even the Farmers' Alliance and the Populist Party, they were calling for a cancellation of debt, and they weren't Marxists, and they weren't explicitly communists.
00:43:18.000But as long as they're unable to scientifically understand the ability for their strategy to work and succeed, as long as they're unable to understand the dynamics I just mentioned, that it's a class struggle, that you need this reliable basis of support, inevitably what's going to happen is exactly what did happen in American history.
00:43:36.000Again, this is off of the premise that Andrew Jackson was an anti- Accreditor president, which I disagree with.
00:43:41.000But even if we assume that was true, it's clear that the way history played out was exactly the opposite.
00:43:46.000It's clear that the banking class, the creditor class, actually emerged here in the United States from the indigenous industrial capitalists that were promoted already under Lincoln, right?
00:43:57.000So I would respond basically with, well, why did the debt come back if it was so simple?
00:44:09.000I'll put three minutes on the clock again, and go ahead, Andrew.
00:44:12.000Yeah, so I mean, this is going to be a continual struggle.
00:44:15.000As long as you have leadership, which wants access to money, the only thing that they can do is offer up their people as a form of credit for that money.
00:44:24.000That's the only thing they can do is offer up the tax basis as a form of credit.
00:44:29.000This is the way that all nations basically back up What they need as far as credit for their nation.
00:44:36.000They're going to put the taxpayer as the kind of collateral for whatever the loan is that they need.
00:44:42.000So the reason that this is kind of occurring again and again and again, cyclically, I would actually say that this is due to egalitarian principles.
00:44:53.000You're taking humanity out of this, I think.
00:44:56.000I think that what happens with egalitarian principles is they form small microgroups.
00:45:01.000These microgroups then have their own assessed and addressed interests.
00:45:04.000And once they realize that they can raid the Treasury via the vote, once they realize that they can vote in their own interest to steal your money, whatever these groups are which formulate, they will do that.
00:45:19.000Democracy in and of itself and egalitarianism in and of itself.
00:45:22.000Communism does nothing to solve for that.
00:45:25.000How would communism, absent a central authority, where it was some type of totalitarian dictatorship, I do not understand how communism can actually solve for this issue.
00:45:37.000If you're going to allow people to participate in any sort of democratic process whatsoever, and you're going to allow them to participate in any sort of government process whatsoever, They're going to have to be able to vote or somehow participate.
00:45:51.000Once they realize that they can steal...
00:45:54.000Group A can steal from Group B via the vote, they will do so because Group A will always outnumber Group B. Group B will always outnumber Group C. They can always vote themselves Group A, B, C, and D's money.
00:46:06.000All you need to do is have the numbers.
00:46:09.000Communism, this was known, was a big problem with...
00:46:12.000This is why Giovanni Gentile himself kind of points to the idea of these large trade corporations swallowing up the smaller trade corporations.
00:46:22.000Now these were actually trade unions, but he kind of understood he came from the idea of Marxism and Communist theory.
00:46:29.000So he says, well wait, we need a body of the state which can control for these small groups Coming in and basically taking over these other groups just via numbers.
00:46:39.000You point to this yourself when you say, look, they have the numbers.
00:47:06.000I'll put three minutes on the clock, and whenever you're ready.
00:47:09.000I'm a little bit confused about exactly what you're talking about, because it seems clear to me from concrete historical examples that the only forces politically in modern world history that have ever been able to wage and mount a long-term defiance of the global creditor class,
00:47:25.000and which is therefore the global capitalist class, have obviously been communist states.
00:47:30.000I mean, what loans did Stalin need to take out and indebt the Soviet Union into?
00:47:34.000Loans did China need to take out under Mao in order to enslave and indebt their country to international capitalists?
00:47:40.000No such thing, because we have to look at the source of where credit comes from.
00:47:45.000Credit doesn't just come out of thin air.
00:47:47.000It comes from actually controlling the means of production.
00:47:50.000I don't want to use Marxist jingo, because I know you have a kind of allergy to that.
00:48:15.000These are all the fundamental meat and potatoes of an economy that are necessary for human beings in a given context of civilization to exist as they do.
00:48:26.000Credit, the ability to actually issue credit, comes from a fundamental stranglehold and control over means of production.
00:48:32.000Historically speaking, it was always land.
00:48:34.000If you controlled the land, you could use that land as collateral to give out loans and further gobble up more land because debtors would have to pledge their land in order to...
00:48:45.000So historically, this is the origin of pro-creditor classes emerging across many different eras of history.
00:48:52.000But in the case of the capitalist era, it's actually clear that we have an ownership of the means of production that is purely for-profit, which is owned by us and gobbled up by a small minority, which inevitably culminates in monopolists,
00:49:08.000like the Rockefellers, the Vanderbilts, the Morgans, and so on and so on.
00:49:12.000And they are the ones who actually built the foundation of the Federal Reserve Banks in the United States.
00:49:16.000If it wasn't for the fact that they owned the railways, they owned the oil, they owned all of the factories, and so on and so on, the steel, the rise of the Federal Reserve and the pro-creditor policies we see today wouldn't have been possible.
00:49:29.000So this communism solves this problem because the fundamental means of production are owned in common.
00:49:34.000They're owned by the state, they're owned by the people in some other form, and this allows...
00:49:40.000This prevents the need, A. It prevents the need from taking out foreign loans necessarily in order to develop your country.
00:50:37.000I agree with you that there's a groundwork setting for this with rich industrialists who definitely move towards the Federal Reserve.
00:50:43.000There's just no doubt that's a matter of historic fact.
00:50:46.000However, you still haven't really explained how it is that you would prevent Group A, Group A if they're going to participate in your communist utopia or society, from stealing the wealth of Group B. As long as they can vote or somehow participate in the political process,
00:51:05.000they can vote themselves Group B shit.
00:51:07.000I don't understand how communism solves for that.
00:51:10.000You say, well, the state owns the means of production along with the people.
00:51:14.000So when it comes to credit, well, the people are still going to be the form of credit.
00:51:18.000You say, well, traditionally it was land.
00:51:20.000That's true, but people have to work the land, so it's still the people who are the credit.
00:51:24.000They're still whatever the bond is for your collateral.
00:51:28.000So if you're a nation and you want to take out a big loan, you're going to say, hey, we can pay this loan back because here's our tax base, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, etc., etc.
00:51:38.000You still haven't actually explained how in communism, if people are allowed to participate in the political process.
00:51:46.000How do you prevent them from stealing the capital if they have a larger group than Group B? Can you just directly answer?
00:51:55.000It's still my time, but just go ahead and give a direct answer.
00:52:04.000Well, look, the Soviet Union didn't have that problem, and neither did China, because in order for different private groups to constitute themselves as separate political interests...
00:52:11.000They weren't allowed to participate, though.
00:52:58.000I think that one-party dictatorships, such as in the Soviet Union and China, have been much more able to integrate the input and participation of the masses.
00:53:40.000Since you guys are not fucking idiots like other debaters, you guys can ask each other questions in the middle of your thing, and it'll count for your time, right?
00:53:48.000So that way we'll keep it fair, but clarifying questions and stuff like that is a complex topic.
00:53:53.000I'll turn it right over to you in three minutes.
00:53:55.000When you just have a single party, which is based on the single purport that we want to increase the prosperity and serve the common interests of your country, then there's no more negotiation and political debates about what the goal should be.
00:54:07.000Everyone's on the same page that the goal is about serving the common interests, serving the people, increasing the productive forces and the wealth, and so on and so on.
00:54:15.000Now, now that you've set that goal about, the question is how do you acquire the input and the data from below from the people who are the least assimilated within the party's power structure apparatus in order to make decisions that are popular and reflect the sentiments and the reality,
00:54:32.000Well, for example, we have historical examples that show how this would work.
00:54:35.000In China, at the lowest, most rural, smallest village level, you have party members that are there that are leaders of their community, that are getting input from their community, that are actually accountable to their community.
00:54:47.000The accountability measures that, as a party leader, as a local political leader, not even necessarily a party one, you have to perform.
00:54:55.000You have to be doing good for your community.
00:54:57.000If you're not performing, if you're doing...
00:55:00.000Bad by them and abusing your power, they'll report you to the person above, right?
00:55:05.000So this is not a matter of a hypothetical system we have to dream up and conjure from scratch.
00:55:10.000Let me get clarity on two points, if you don't mind.
00:55:13.000So point one, when you say own, own the means of production.
00:55:18.000The people also own the means of production.
00:55:21.000What does ownership in this context mean?
00:55:24.000However the means of production are used, they have to be pledged ultimately, in the last and final sense, for a common goal, right?
00:55:32.000And whatever that common goal is defined by and by who, that's who owns it.
00:55:39.000So the Communist Party in China owns all of the land, right?
00:55:43.000But they don't strictly define the parameters in every detail as far as how the land can be used.
00:55:49.000You can lease land for them and use it, In ways that they can't account for beforehand as long as it doesn't violate the fundamental goal, right?
00:55:58.000So if you're using the land in a way that ultimately benefits the country and benefits the overall goals of the party, you know, they're giving you room to be creative and entrepreneurial as far as how you're going to do that.
00:56:10.000But can you own land just for the purpose of, you know, of speculative profit?
00:56:19.000And you don't have any goal whatsoever?
00:56:49.000Control is about management and administration and the degree to which there's flexibility and freedom for people to find different ways to realize the same goal.
00:56:57.000But ownership is fundamentally about sovereignty, right?
00:57:00.000Ownership is about the fact that, okay, if you're in China, this is our land, foreigners and bankers and capitalists, they can't just take this land and use it for willy-nilly to enslave all of us and hold it against us.
00:57:10.000It's ultimately ours in the last and final sense.
00:57:16.000So, instance, that's what I meant to say.
00:58:40.000Toxins in all of the, quote, healthy foods that scientists have been telling us to eat with a fraudulent food pyramid for the longest time.
00:58:50.000And this potential toxin causes digestive issues according to Dr.
00:58:56.000Gundry, a world-renowned cardiologist.
00:58:58.000This is affecting millions of people in the nation.
00:59:03.000Warning signs include weight gain, fatigue, and digestive discomfort and stiff joints, even skin problems.
00:59:11.000Gundry explains these side effects are often mistaken for normal signs of aging because digestive issues develop usually over a matter of years, even decades.
00:59:22.000I can assure you that the damaging is probably caused by these health foods And it's far from normal.
00:59:31.000The good news is you can easily fix the problem from your own home.
01:00:01.000And thank you, BioComplete, for sponsoring this episode.
01:00:05.000I'll retell the charts, and then we'll get back into it.
01:00:07.000So we completed an opening round, right, where they gave their stance on everything, and then obviously three rounds back and forth, and then we're going to open it up for five minutes of open dialogue, versus only three.
01:00:19.000So it'll be a total of five rounds of open dialogue, five minutes apiece, and you guys will be able to kind of just have dialogue, because you guys are pretty much...
01:00:25.000We've established your grounding, and now it's more about clarifying the other's positions so that you can respond to it.
01:00:31.000So that makes more sense in this situation.
01:01:57.000Beyond Sarah Penn, he goes, What does communism have to say about morality?
01:02:02.000Communism being a strictly materialistic philosophy, what's to stop degeneracy from developing in your communist utopia?
01:02:10.000We'll get into that probably during the debate.
01:02:12.000And then we got, What Haas means by brief economic disruption is the single greatest loss of human life in recorded history caused by mass famine.
01:02:54.000Yeah, so, Haas, I appreciate you opening it up, too, because some of this requires a lot of clarification so we can get to the heart of these positions.
01:03:01.000And you're welcome to ask me whatever you want.
01:03:03.000And if you think you have a point that needs to be clarified and you need to cut in, I'm not going to take any offense to that.
01:03:10.000Yeah, so to kind of dive in here, I did notice something of a contradiction, and this is why I'm focusing on the ownership portion, what you mean by ownership here in the means of production.
01:03:22.000To me, ownership is this belongs to me, the individual.
01:03:27.000You're making kind of a different claim here.
01:03:29.000I think that ownership of property is a way to exercise power, and I think that you're trying to control that exercise of power at the individual level.
01:03:38.000And perhaps regulation could be good for that.
01:03:41.000But can you just clarify one more time because we just had to break what you mean by ownership here?
01:03:46.000Because when you gave the example of the Chinese, you said, well, wait a second.
01:03:51.000What can happen is they have a rep, and if the rep isn't doing, you know, or...
01:03:56.000That's just the ability to get people's input in the political process, not necessarily the fundamental ownership.
01:04:05.000The ownership is that all of the land, for example, in China is either owned by the state or it's owned by the cooperatives of the village level, collectively.
01:04:13.000And they have the power to lease out the land to whoever they want.
01:05:12.000I mean, what makes it theirs, historically, from classical political economies, they'll say because their labor was used to cultivate the land and their labor is being used to participate in it, this is what makes it theirs.
01:05:23.000This is what makes it reflect their fundamental essence and their fundamental being, right?
01:05:27.000When you have societies constituted by a very complex division of labor, where in order to produce the civilization itself at the aggregate level, You have a bunch of different moving parts and a bunch of different kinds of labor that are working together that are necessary and indispensable for each other.
01:05:42.000I mean, for a factory, you need, you know, there's so many different specialized roles just for something like that, right?
01:05:48.000Now think of it at the level of a country.
01:05:50.000There's so many different types of labor that are necessary for a nation to exist, just to be able to feed itself and clothe itself and so on.
01:05:59.000So how can we pin down, you know, if you want to take this at a more moral level, that someone in particular is entitled absolutely to own this in the way that you're talking about, like at the level of sovereignty and power, when they are interdependent on others just as much as well?
01:06:17.000Because if all we have is what's intuitive...
01:06:20.000And it seems like this is the system that you're advocating is intuition.
01:06:24.000I don't see how else you're advocating for anything other than I would, and I'm going to be tongue-in-cheek a bit here, my preferences, right?
01:07:00.000Now, aside from the wife thing, we can get into that later, but let's just say this mug, this is your mug, I want to drink out of it, I don't want to share it with anyone else, it's mine.
01:07:08.000No, no, no, this is, yeah, I get what you're saying now.
01:07:19.000You're using it in a way that is reflective of your humanity, reflective of your existence, and, of course, any civilization recognizes and respects those boundaries, that this is yours because this is what you use, right?
01:07:34.000Capitalist private property isn't just I want to use this, and that's what defines its exclusivity.
01:07:40.000It's about an institution where you're pledging fundamental means of production and resources that we all depend on and all rely upon for the sole and exclusive purpose of making a profit.
01:07:51.000Not even necessarily making profit For, like, a predefined goal of, like, I want to get rich, I want to have a yacht with women, and I want to have a luxurious life.
01:07:59.000Even that would be more compatible with communism, because at least there's a goal that's human at the end of it, right?
01:08:05.000But the capitalist system doesn't have human goals.
01:08:08.000It's a maddening process of capital just self-expanding blindly only for the purpose of profit.
01:09:34.000There's civilization, and it varies...
01:09:37.000By what civilization we're talking about, recognizes boundaries by which, you know, privacy of the individual is recognized.
01:09:44.000See, this is the thing that I think is so difficult, and I think this is maybe the language stuff you were talking about earlier, that Marxists are obfuscating language.
01:09:52.000Well, it's because things didn't always mean...
01:09:55.000What they mean to us now, like private property.
01:09:57.000We think of private property, we're like, this is my lawn, it's private property, fuck off and don't come on my lawn.
01:10:04.000But in reality, the private part of private property wasn't that it was an exclusively individual or human use, it was that this was institutionally cast off Yeah.
01:10:33.000Own so many homes that are meant for people to live in just for purposes of speculation and just for purposes of generating fictitious capital and fictitious profits that are not even productive.
01:10:45.000This is exactly what I'm talking about.
01:11:06.000Capitalism has led to banks owning everything, not individuals.
01:11:10.000And to me, that is exactly the consequence of the system of private property itself.
01:11:14.000Yeah, but communism itself, the way that you are promoting it here, is not really telling us why we wouldn't just be shifting from bankers owning everything to just Group A owning everything.
01:11:25.000If you believe in forced doctrine, Group A, in this case government's just going to own everything.
01:11:29.000They'll allocate the housing how they see fit instead of the bank.
01:11:33.000It seems like all you're doing is shifting from one person who owns everything And is then utilizing speculation and everything else in order to profit themselves to just another group doing the exact same thing.
01:11:46.000Well, I would say, although there's no guarantees that it would be perfect, I would say it would be an improvement.
01:12:16.000But in this case, all you're doing is shifting the goal to the government doing the exact same thing you're claiming these banks are doing.
01:12:23.000And now they have all the machine guns, too.
01:12:25.000What redress do you think the people have?
01:12:27.000Okay, so even if we're talking about a corrupt authoritarian government that's communist or something, even if it's corrupt...
01:12:35.000No, they weren't fundamentally corrupt.
01:12:37.000But even then, even if we assume they were, it's still better because even in order for them to not get overthrown instantly, right, they have to at least justify themselves on the basis that this is what we're using it for and have to be held to that standard.
01:12:52.000Even that, even if it was corrupt, that's better than if a banker owns everything or bankers own everything for totally antisocial purposes, just to, you know, systemically dysfunctional purposes, ones that don't even make rational economic sense, just for the purposes of making money,
01:13:09.000but the money's backed up by nothing, and it's self-multiplying because of the way interest works, and it's totally negating its own fundamental premises.
01:14:55.000Or else, if they are, then it's like the collapse of the Soviet Union where oligarchs just come and they just say it's no longer communism.
01:15:01.000But when you say antisocial goal, what do you mean by antisocial goal?
01:15:05.000One that in no way is accountable to the public and to publicly accountable and stated and enunciated goals like the five-year plans they have.
01:15:14.000That's all private property ownership.
01:15:16.000I don't have to account for what I do with my private property to the public.
01:15:23.000So the thing is, if I'm under the Communist Party, right, and I have my private property, do I have to give a fucking accounting to them of what I'm doing with my private property?
01:15:32.000If I own 300 acres and, you know, there's an eaves there, there's something in the public domain, public interest...
01:15:39.000Under communism, all of the fundamental means of production, including land, will be owned in common.
01:15:44.000Now, if you're leasing out the land, let's say, to the state, and you have the rights to the lease one way or another, because historically, your parents had it or whatever, do you have to be accountable for everything?
01:16:08.000Well, it's not that they're turning a blind eye.
01:16:10.000It's that they're not interested in just meddling and interfering with people's day-to-day lives.
01:16:14.000But what the Communist Party is ensuring, though, is that people, in the course of just living their lives normally, are doing so in a way that is harmonious and compatible with the reproduction of civilization.
01:16:26.000The problem in America is not necessarily there's too much government or too little government.
01:16:31.000It's that we're not holding ourselves to the standard of being reproduced as a civilization.
01:16:35.000So anti-social values can be freely cultivated.
01:17:07.000I think that what you're talking about is that abortion was legalized and relaxed initially because they eliminated all of the civil codes.
01:17:22.000Even though she was in favor of the legalization of...
01:17:24.000She's considered one of the great feminist minds of our time, Haas.
01:17:28.000By Western feminists, sure, but in Russia, that's not how she would be regarded.
01:17:31.000But anyway, look, the point is, even they recognized that even if it was to be legalized, they didn't think it was a good thing.
01:17:38.000They thought it was a necessary evil, and that their idea was that, oh, it's harm reduction, because people are doing it anyway, because these are wartime conditions, and it's very dangerous to their health.
01:17:46.000And they said, our goal is to eliminate this, but we're just going to make it legal so it's less dangerous to them.
01:17:51.000Now, we could disagree with that or agree with that.
01:17:55.000But even when communist countries allow for abortion, and many of them banned it, by the way, at different periods, I don't think there's any states in history that were more aggressively pro-natalist in terms of how much they were trying to pursue these policies than communist states.
01:18:13.000You have to concede that that came later.
01:18:15.000We're talking about the first ten years...
01:18:18.000Yeah, but the thing is, they foresaw that when they looked at how many abortions were happening, they went, oh shit, this is not going to be good for the numbers that we need for the state that we want.
01:18:31.000They didn't have any moral qualms with abortion itself.
01:18:35.000There was nobody out there moralizing about the great evil of abortion.
01:19:06.000These people worked directly with the Soviets.
01:19:09.000The Soviets definitely, well, before they were even really Soviets, as communism comes in, definitely abortion is something which was running rampant.
01:21:07.000They weren't just telling everyone to...
01:21:09.000And so the original point, though, is that we're talking about antisocial things like pornography and OnlyFans and prostitution and all these things.
01:21:16.000I consider that to be an antisocial thing.
01:21:46.000Fascist, I would say, fascist-occupied countries were hypocrites.
01:21:49.000They would claim that, oh, we're against degeneracy, and they would target the degeneracy on a superficial level, but as far as the root causes of the degeneracy, they would leave a blind eye to it.
01:21:58.000The Nazis, when they occupied Europe, they would establish institutionalized brothels where they would...
01:22:04.000Yeah, yeah, I'm just telling you, they didn't...
01:22:06.000Yeah, but you're moving the goalposts.
01:22:21.000Failed to demonstrate, though, that capitalism itself was the root of the problem.
01:22:25.000And the thing is, is like, look, they crack down on the same sorts of degeneracy inside of fascist states, and you don't need communism nor fascism to crack down on this.
01:22:35.000This type of degeneracy comes from egalitarian principles.
01:22:46.000I think, fundamentally, it proposes egalitarianism.
01:22:50.000So why were communists so severely against moral and cultural degeneracy, then?
01:22:56.000Because I think it wasn't in the interest of the state to pursue those things.
01:23:02.000But I just gave you an instance where the ultimate degeneracy, which is murder in the womb, they definitely stayed completely neutral on that.
01:23:11.000I think the sex industry is a much more fundamental evil than a case where some abortions are allowed.
01:23:18.000I'd rather that there be prostitutions and dead babies.
01:23:21.000I mean, again, I understand it's a contentious issue, and there's a lot of extremes.
01:23:25.000For example, the United States, liberal states, had very extreme lax abortion law, right?
01:23:30.000Where you can terminate at eight months and nine months.
01:23:43.000Where they promote the most forms of egalitarianism they possibly can, under the idea, even surpassing equality to equity, saying, okay, equality's not even enough, has to be equitable, right?
01:23:57.000Where now, if your box isn't big enough at the analogy, you've heard this, right?
01:24:02.000If the box isn't big enough, we have to build you a bigger box.
01:24:12.000I don't, but I don't take communists at face value.
01:24:14.000Well, communists have results, and meanwhile, what Kamala Harris has is promising World War III, more funding for Israel, and more enriching of the capitalist class.
01:24:23.000This talk of equity and stuff, is it not clear that this is just a way to stem the majority working class populist occurrence in your country?
01:24:32.000If I'm constantly propping up minorities as a political tool, it's not that I want everyone to be equal or it's about egalitarianism.
01:24:39.000It's just a political strategy to demoralize the working class majority.
01:24:45.000That being said, I can concede the point that this type of class warfare is being utilized on purpose to create division among individual people.
01:24:54.000You and I both agree that that's true.
01:24:58.000But saying that communism, the answer to this, is to strip autonomous property rights, period.
01:25:05.000Which is basically what your position reduces to.
01:25:08.000Seems like you're really throwing the baby out with the backwater here.
01:25:11.000I want to draw from the spirit of the Communist Manifesto, which is like, we don't want to strip the autonomous property rights of the individual because capitalism has already done this.
01:25:23.000Capitalism has enslaved and immiserated this entire nation with debt such that even business owners...
01:25:29.000And this is the quintessential example that we're told of free enterprise.
01:25:46.000Even the largest, most, you name them, Starbucks, McDonald's, whatever, they all are in debt, and it's ultimately the bankers and the financial institutions that control everything.
01:26:17.000And going back to force doctrine, right?
01:26:18.000Who gives a shit how much debt you have when you have the most powerful military on planet Earth with a navy that can say, oh, we'll just blow you up, fucker.
01:26:28.000Well, the United States government owns it and deploys it.
01:26:31.000But if the government is in debt and 50% of my income taxes are going to servicing the interest on the national debt, then our government is clearly occupied and controlled by the private interest.
01:27:33.000I want to make sure that you're not being biased because Bolshevikism, which you believe in, Big C Communism, was conducted, orchestrated, and executed by Jews.
01:27:48.000Well, if it was conducted and orchestrated by Jews...
01:27:53.000Why is it that only for two years, and not even two years, just like specific months within a year, was the Politburo even half Jewish?
01:28:01.000For the all-round majority of the existence of the party, Jews were a minority at every level and at every rank of a position you can have.
01:28:09.000So, when you take a whole, you take a whole of an organization...
01:29:55.000Trotsky latched onto the revolution at the last moment in 1917, and because of his pledging of support and enthusiasm, the Bolsheviks let this guy in.
01:30:04.000Now, when all is said and done, the civil war is over.
01:30:09.000Trotsky is trying to usurp power from the Bolsheviks.
01:30:11.000Stalin has to come and say, you're not one of us.
01:30:13.000You weren't an OG. You know, you weren't there with us in the very beginning.
01:30:16.000So Trotsky wasn't a Bolshevik, and he was kicked out in 1926, shortly after the state itself was created.
01:30:22.000So to say that Trotsky was a thought leader of the Bolsheviks, A, he's not even really a Bolshevik, B, he wasn't in all significant influence on the formation of the Soviet state, because he was kicked out in 1926.
01:30:35.000Let me concede the point that it wasn't.
01:30:37.000And then we'll fast forward to modernity, when you're trying to talk about these issues which communism is going to solve.
01:30:44.000When you're asking about the same thing, who is in these key points?
01:32:24.000That's how you know who's in charge of a thing.
01:32:26.000And the only consistent variable as far as how power has been executed and has been used, right, let's just talk about the last 50 years, is to enrich the capitalist class.
01:33:59.000He died with a pipe, he died with his shirt and his suit, and I think he had one small cabin in the woods somewhere, and that's all he had.
01:36:10.000The reason we know, as much as we know about Stalin's Soviet Union right now, is because when the Soviet Union collapsed, the archives opened up.
01:36:16.000So we can actually look and see about how it was working and what was going on.
01:36:20.000We have CIA stuff that was leaked, all this kind of stuff.
01:36:23.000North Korea, there's not a lot of information, and the only information we do seem to be getting is bullshit, you know?
01:36:29.000Yeah, but, well, so let's move back again.
01:36:33.000When you're talking about North Korea, you say, okay, there's an information blackout.
01:36:37.000What I'm asking you specifically, though, you say Stalin has never used his position of power to enrich himself.
01:36:57.000What is Stalin doing here as the position of leader?
01:37:00.000He is attending and overseeing the business of the state, making sure that the five-year plans are being executed correctly, attending and being sent.
01:37:09.000He's literally reading the letters of ordinary people that are being sent on a regular basis to him.
01:37:14.000He's actually reading these things and replying.
01:37:16.000He's overseeing the people that are under and making sure that they're doing their job.
01:37:20.000He's consulting with all the different departments of the state in order to make sure that everything...
01:37:25.000And how many people died under his reign due to the massive famine which was caused...
01:37:31.000The one in 32-33, where there was a combination of one of the biggest droughts in their history and there is proof that the Kulak class was destroying and burning grain as a form of political resistance.
01:37:43.000That they were trying to reallocate and redistribute these supplies, and they were literally putting them in grain houses and in storage units and things like this.
01:37:53.000They were rotting away because they were trying to distribute equally these types of supplies.
01:37:58.000Listen, the famine was a disaster, but let's actually place things into context.
01:40:13.000Alright, so I'll read some of these chats and we'll get back into it.
01:40:16.000Was the Hold'em War a cynical, cyclical famine also, Haas?
01:40:20.000Weird how the famine in China coincided while Mao mobilizing peasants to make big iron during the Great Leap Forward instead of growing food?
01:40:28.000Okay, that will be addressed, I think, in this next conversation, right, brother?
01:43:18.000But when it comes to decadence, right, how is communism preventing this except with the barrel of a gun versus argumentation and the ethics around argumentation that you find from religion and theology?
01:43:30.000And I'd like to dive into the moral discussion of that.
01:43:33.000You know, I think, yeah, it's a good question.
01:43:36.000I think that, you know, I reject the separation of morality from the other spheres of the division of labor, so to speak.
01:43:45.000I think that a human existence, inclusive of its economic reality, inclusive of its social and political reality, and its historical reality, is infused with the moral.
01:43:55.000The moral has significance for every historical era, for every historical situation we find ourselves in.
01:44:02.000So, for example, we don't have to get into the conflict itself, but just an example, you can disagree.
01:44:08.000I think, for example, the question of morality for a Palestinian, it's not a question of propositional logic.
01:44:17.000It is based in a concrete historical circumstance in which their people are being occupied by a foreign aggressor, and it is...
01:44:24.000Yes, maybe it's a matter of intuition, but it's the clear moral path, which is to resist, right?
01:44:30.000So, history is riddled with situations like this.
01:44:33.000I would argue that every instance of the emergence of prophets, biblical prophets historically, they're giving people a message, but the message is not being justified to them on the basis of propositional logic.
01:44:47.000It's not being justified on the basis of...
01:44:51.000It makes sense in the time that it's in, and people heed the call because they receive it as something that's making sense of the injustice of the era they're living in.
01:45:00.000There's many things here which would make sense even in this situation, which could be superior to picking a side.
01:45:06.000For instance, why do I care if Jews and Palestinians kill each other?
01:45:44.000Putin said that the moral code for communist builders was a document the Communist Party of the Soviet Union released precisely to answer this question.
01:45:53.000He says it's the same thing as the Bible.
01:45:57.000In my view, the morality of the communists is not a morality separated from the one that is actually ingratiated and is based in the historical existence of the people through the Bible, through the Quran, through the Confucianism in China, for example.
01:46:11.000The communists were killing the Christians.
01:46:49.000Yeah, there's a descriptor, that's true, but we're looking at an is and an ought here, all the same.
01:46:55.000So you say, okay, we can adopt to the description of whatever the morality is...
01:46:59.000Clearly you're not going to adopt the prescription of the morality of putting someone on a pyramid, cutting out their heart, holding it up to the sun god.
01:47:06.000You would say, no, we're not doing that.
01:47:08.000But human beings did do that for a long period of history.
01:47:11.000Yeah, but that doesn't mean communism would endorse that.
01:47:21.000We're not here to reject the Bible and reject the religious traditions of the people.
01:47:25.000What is your grounding to say you can't take them on top of pyramids and cut their hearts out?
01:47:32.000Why does there need to be a grounding for that?
01:47:36.000And by grounding, by the way, you're talking about propositional logic.
01:47:39.000You're talking about something that is basically the self-consistency of a concept.
01:47:44.000Well, we do need to know why we're moving towards something.
01:47:49.000The foundation of morality does not lie in logic.
01:47:53.000The foundation of morality lies in existence.
01:47:56.000It lies in the real existence of people struggling to make sense of that existence in relation not only to themselves, but toward others and toward the natural world.
01:48:07.000Yes, I will agree that there's something far more expressive about what morality is than propositional logic or logic of any kind can really ever express.
01:48:15.000The external that you're talking about.
01:48:18.000But you should still be able to give me a general idea of what it is communism, the moral descriptions of communism, are moving towards.
01:48:27.000So in Christianity, for instance, let me give you the example.
01:48:31.000Inside of your worldview, isn't it true that you believe that it's material conditions, right, which set what men will do, not some sort of ontology which is the man which sets what they will do?
01:48:44.000Materialism is not about a single directional cause and effect.
01:48:49.000What man is doing is a material reality.
01:48:53.000It's not that the material reality is the cause of his actions.
01:48:57.000The context by which his actions are suspended in a way that reproduces his real existence is a material existence.
01:49:03.000So if this was a video game called Communism, the game, what's the win condition?
01:49:10.000So if you have a video game, let's say you have World of Warcraft, it's going to have its own economy, it's going to have its own player base, it's going to have its own everything, right?
01:49:20.000It's not reality, but it's like a demi-reflection of reality, right?
01:49:27.000So, inside of the game, there's going to be a victory condition, right?
01:49:31.000The victory condition is, you know, kill this bad guy, right?
01:50:40.000I think it can be recorded objectively.
01:50:43.000I mean, by wealth, I'm not just talking about luxury, I'm talking about the necessities of people to exist.
01:50:50.000So the growth of a population, for example, can clearly be an indication that there's an expansion of wealth.
01:50:56.000It can be, but the poorest people also populate the most now.
01:50:59.000And they could not survive relative to...
01:51:03.000They survive better often than the rich who abort their kids, and the middle class who abort their kids.
01:51:08.000But if it was not for at least a relative degree of the expansion of the overall productive forces in material wealth, they would not be able to survive.
01:51:17.000The poor seem to survive better than the rich do.
01:51:21.000Then why weren't there 8 billion people in 1800?
01:51:26.000Well, so, you have, and by the way, we're about to go way less than 8 billion people now.
01:51:44.000How could it possibly be that we have now produced more wealth on planet Earth than ever before, but we're moving into a birthrate crisis like we've never seen before?
01:51:53.000There's no possible way that we're going to be able to reproduce at 8 billion long term.
01:52:25.000Okay, so there's thousands of years, okay, and we can clearly...
01:52:29.000Do you think that we're recording the population accurately, or maybe like in ancient Egypt, there was like billions of people...
01:52:37.000No, I don't think there was billions of people in ancient Egypt, but that makes my point not yours.
01:52:42.000I think that there's a clear case in which we can see the expansion of the growth of the population globally, you know, corresponds, at least, if it's not absolute, it's a rough general tendency that this is...
01:52:55.000Hang on, I'm not going to let you evade this.
01:52:57.000You didn't really answer the question of how you reconcile this contradiction of saying, well, wait a second, it really takes a lot of wealth for this expansion to happen, and then you say we're creating more wealth than we ever have before, but this expansion of population is not happening.
01:54:12.000Because it's not just labor, because there's finite resources, but when you increase the methods of production with the same amount of resources, you can actually yield more.
01:57:16.000Do you think that there was a point in human history before where there were this many people, or what?
01:57:20.000I'm not saying that, but that doesn't logically make sense.
01:57:23.000I think that it's clear that the main cause of population growth, as far as the modern period, Has been the development of the productive forces and industrialization.
01:57:54.000Because you still have to have X amount of numbers who can run the production of this technology in order to continue this bloodline going.
01:58:18.000If in 4000 BC... When you're eliminating half of your population like you're doing in China, where you go, oh, we have too many people, we're just going to start drowning them, right?
01:59:35.000If you get underneath a certain threshold in your birth rates, your population is doomed.
01:59:41.000Listen, Andrew, I am ready to accept that, but we need to get back to the point, which is that if you don't expand the material wealth through modern industrialization and so on and so on, it's not even possible to expand the population.
01:59:56.000But humans have been around for thousands of years, so why is it only recently that it exploded?
02:00:01.000I don't understand why you keep making my point.
02:00:04.000It exploded to 8 billion people only recently, okay?
02:00:06.000For thousands of years, we have never gotten the rate of growth that we have since the rise of industrialization.
02:00:12.000That's because we didn't have aircraft travel and mass land travel and steamboats and steam engines and all of those things.
02:00:15.000And I wonder what contributes to the possibility of these things.
02:00:18.000It's the expansion of the productive forces.
02:00:20.000All it takes is one technological marvel to open up possibilities.
02:00:24.000So, for instance, okay, if we invented a spaceship that took us to Mars...
02:03:07.000Because we got in a kind of little bit of a circle there with the whole industrialization versus human concept of creating said industrialization.
02:04:51.000So I think that you can have technology which actually pulls back productive forces in such a way where it makes labor far more simple.
02:05:00.000That's why I say productive forces rather than just technology, because productive forces also refers to the way human beings are organized and their social relations.
02:05:08.000But human beings are the pinnacle of that technology, then.
02:06:04.000Materialism itself can be self-defeating to humanity.
02:06:09.000The poorest on planet Earth are those who reproduce the most.
02:06:12.000Okay, but this is why we got into this argument, because I'm trying to explain to you that they're poor relative to us today, but compared to 7,000 years ago, the only reason they're able to survive and live is because we have more wealth than we did 7,000 years ago.
02:07:35.000The growth of the population reliably seemed to correspond to being able to yield more outputs in agriculture and material wealth and goods that are necessary for people to survive.
02:07:56.000But we've had the capacity to grow the supply of people for a very long time.
02:08:00.000It's only when we added the factor of industrial modernization that that seemed to compound in the explosive population growth that we've seen in the past few hundred years.
02:08:09.000Yeah, but correlation is not causation.
02:08:11.000And this is why you would need to demonstrate that in the year 1700, we could not have supported 8 billion people.
02:08:17.000What about the technology could not have supported 8 billion people?
02:08:24.000You don't think medicine was important or anything?
02:08:26.000I think that when I look back in history, after you got out of, I think it was about three, you lived about as long as you do now.
02:08:38.000Okay, so the medicine wasn't a decisive factor to support more people?
02:08:43.000But I would also make the counter-argument that medicine can also be very detrimental.
02:08:47.000That obesity, all of these different things.
02:08:49.000What about more intensive agricultural methods that allowed us to have with the same amount of land?
02:08:54.000None of this is a demonstration, though, that in the year 1700, there couldn't have been 8 billion people who lived comfortably on planet Earth.
02:09:24.000Again, it's a combination of the increase of technology, as you put it, and the relations of production organized in such a way that frees up the means of production from their, you know...
02:09:35.000Real quick, guys, I think we've kind of, like, hit a standstill here, because, like, you guys are both actually correct, and I feel like, just from listening to this, you guys are kind of talking past each other, because both of you are 100% correct.
02:09:50.000You're arguing more along the lines of, hey, it's people and population, and then you're arguing more it's technology, because there's been people forever.
02:09:58.000But going back to the whole situation, because we were talking about the famine originally, and then communism versus, I guess, capitalism.
02:10:26.000Who wants to kick it off with the morality, then?
02:10:28.000So, how does Christianity fit into communism, Hoskins?
02:10:33.000I think that communism has always presupposed, even if it's unconsciously and not explicitly, Christianity and their biblical traditions.
02:10:42.000I think even Stalin, who is kind of a vowed atheist for a large period of his life, was, when he was giving speeches to the Bolshevik Congress, quoting the Bible all the time, you know, to make his points.
02:10:54.000So, if you had a church, let's say the Orthodox Church, the Christian Orthodox Church, who says communism is anathematized by the Orthodox Church, You mean Patriarch Tekin's anathema against the Bolsheviks in 1918?
02:11:17.000Now, I know that in Catholicism, I think they can't reverse the anathemas, but in Orthodoxy, is it not possible that through confession and through apology, the Church can decide to reverse them?
02:11:31.000The church could collectively, I guess, have an ecumenical council or something like this, or they could reverse this.
02:11:36.000But hang on, the question still logically stands.
02:11:39.000If Christianity itself rejects communism, will communism impose itself on Christianity?
02:11:45.000I think it's a simplification and misunderstanding of...
02:11:48.000To the extent of my knowledge, how the Orthodox Church works, that there's no active relation...
02:11:54.000And discussion about church decisions.
02:11:56.000It's just infallible, and that's all Christianity could ever be.
02:12:00.000Whereas, it seems to me, from what I can observe in Orthodox Christianity, at least there's lively debates, there's discussions, there's people who disagree with these decisions, right?
02:12:10.000There are certain things that are binding and unquestionable, like the seven councils or whatever, but...
02:12:15.000But decisions like this, I mean, look, in Russia, the overall majority of the second largest party in Russia is the Communist Party of the Russian Federation.
02:12:24.000I mean, do you think that they're just stupid?
02:12:25.000That, oh, okay, they don't understand that they can't take inventory of the fact that there's been difficult relationships in the past between communism and the church?
02:12:36.000To what the Orthodox Church and their policies are.
02:13:08.000First of all, I can get into that in a second, but just to be clear, it doesn't mean that every communist is anathematized.
02:13:14.000Doesn't mean every member of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation is anathematized and can't participate in the Church, because I know that's not true, because Zhiyuganov, who's the leader, meets with Church officials and participates in the faith.
02:13:33.000I'm not concerned about these details, but I see no reason why he wouldn't be able to.
02:13:37.000Well, it's important because then we would know that he can participate.
02:13:41.000Now, regarding the relationship between communism and Christianity, look, I think it was off to a bad start, so to speak.
02:13:46.000I think that there was a lot of misunderstanding and difficulty in the history.
02:13:49.000And my goal as a communist, when it comes to all of the major traditional religions on Earth, is to mend that banned relationship.
02:13:57.000This is a This is literally the official position of the Communist Party, the Russian Federation.
02:14:01.000Work closely together in a new alliance between the believers and the communists to work on common goals and hopefully in the future we can come to a better understanding with one another and the church can be open to communists more and then communists can be open to the church more.
02:14:16.000This is my official position to you about my understanding of the relationship between communism and Christianity.
02:14:24.000Yeah, but I need this question to actually answer the one that I'm asking.
02:14:45.000Well, for example, when the Bolsheviks made the Orthodox Church comply, how is that different than when the Tsars controlled the Orthodox Church?
02:15:53.000Their ecclesiastical authority has been in practice.
02:15:55.000So they have religious freedom, and they don't have to agree with communism, and they can continue carrying out their religion as they want to.
02:16:11.000So then, just to make sure we got this clear, if they're anathematized, okay, in communism, you say, nope, you're going to have freedom of religion as long as the thing...
02:16:22.000Christianity itself preaches compliance with the law.
02:16:24.000I just want to make sure that I got this right.
02:16:25.000If the Orthodox Church itself says, no, we don't want communism, and they publicly state this, they need to be treated as enemies of the state, correct?
02:16:36.000In a wartime scenario, absolutely, in a peacetime condition.
02:16:40.000You know, people can challenge the state, they can disagree with it, but I don't know what you're getting at here.
02:17:21.000I said if they speak out and say, we do not want communism, and they preach against the state, they are out in the streets preaching against the state.
02:17:29.000Does that mean they're telling people to rise up and overthrow it?
02:17:32.000They're telling people that they don't want communism.
02:17:33.000They're telling people that they need to say no to communism.
02:17:37.000Well, I would hope that communists, you know, hope to change their mind.
02:18:30.000Saying, saying, but wait, this other thing also happened is not answering to this question of communists.
02:18:35.000No matter what the political system is, no matter what country it is, all religious authorities are going to be bound by the political circumstances.
02:19:00.000However, there's a different way of reacting to that by certain political ideologies, which does not include you're an enemy of the state because you say, I don't want communism.
02:19:11.000That's what you just said they would be, an enemy of the state.
02:19:15.000You can say you don't want communism, that's fine, but if people are struggling and giving their lives and shedding their blood to make their country sovereign and free and take back their factories and their land so they're not slaves anymore, nobody is going to get in the way of that.
02:19:29.000Yeah, but if you are going to say that the martyrs who are orthodox, who are struggling against communist yoke of suppressing the spirit, are saying, no, we'll be martyred for this, you communists are not going to get in the way of that.
02:20:05.000And I believe for 100% that you just outed yourself and said they would be under my circumstances the enemy of the state if they spoke out against communism.
02:21:44.000Why are you being so dramatic and acting like there's some urgency to the situation, like I'm about to seize power and kill all these clergymen?
02:21:50.000Assuming that you were about to seize power...
02:21:55.000If Haas was about to seize power, he was about to be the new Stalin, you have the right mustache, and the Orthodox Church opposed you, did it get put to the sword, Haas?
02:22:54.000According to the US Board Certified Physician, Dr.
02:22:58.000Amy Lee, one of the main reasons is three harmful foods that are being passed off as healthy foods all over the country.
02:23:07.000Because these foods can cause weight gain, clog your digestive tract, deplete your energy, and wreck your skin, they are banned in other countries.
02:23:17.000Yet, shockingly, they're still legal in the US. And it's time someone shot a line of what they are.
02:25:03.000Praise the USSR. In 1925, on his deathbed, Patriarch Sergius, Patriarch Alexei, and Patriarch Piment also supported the USSR. It was Trotskyites that created martyrs, not Marxists.
02:25:22.000So there's a long history, especially inside of communism with orthodoxy, of the orthodox making communist priests say and do different things in order for them to survive.
02:25:33.000The church understood this, allowed for this to happen because they knew that it was under duress.
02:25:39.000Now, I don't know what the exact position is here.
02:25:41.000I would have to dig in and do a little bit of research.
02:25:44.000To figure out what that position is, but my understanding currently, and I've asked every single patriarch that I can find about the anathemization, the fact that communism is anathematized, and the reason that it is,
02:26:00.000is because they have persecuted traditionally Orthodox Christians non-stop.
02:26:15.000And I think that you should talk to Jay Dyer about it, because Jay Dyer has absolutely taken the subject on many, many times about the destruction of orthodoxy by communists.
02:27:21.000And then we got Capitalism is Christianity applied to money.
02:27:25.000Communism is anti-Christian, no free will.
02:27:29.000I think that that was demonstrated kind of over and over in this debate, that there would be an isolation.
02:27:34.000So what happens with Haas is that he'll say a thing, and then I'll catch him on the thing, and then he'll kind of move it towards something different.
02:29:25.000I mean, how would you say, ah, it's inappropriate here in America, that would be immoral to curtail the Orthodox Church from speaking out, for instance, against communism.
02:29:33.000But in China, fucking off with their heads, right, Haas?
02:29:38.000You have to understand, Russia was in a civil war.
02:29:43.000So I'm asking you, if in China they're like, hey, no, you're not going to speak out against a state, or you're going to go to fucking prison.
02:29:49.000You don't have an actual objection to that, because in the cultural context, it's fine.
02:29:54.000But why would the church speak out against the state?
02:30:09.000Inside of China, under what you consider your cultural relativism, morality, if China jails these people, speak out against the state, you would say that that is fine.
02:30:19.000You just would say it's not fine in the United States, right?
02:30:27.000Because it's not a relativism of the absolute moral standards you hold to a culture, it's the actual state functioning in its capacity in a way that's receptive to the context and civilization it's in.
02:33:35.000Because it seems clear to me through Marx's criticism of Hegel and that of the young Hegelian humanists who did draw that interpretation, but Hegel did not himself openly avow it.
02:33:46.000All of history was the development of the mind, the divine mind.
02:33:50.000This mind, this super-individual reason, rationality, that is being developed through history, he doesn't say that's of a man, that's of an individual.
02:34:02.000He ascribes to it a metaphysical status.
02:34:04.000In fact, I'll give you the exact quote.
02:34:06.000It's a metaphysical status which we can deduce or presume to be God, you know, the mind of God.
02:34:11.000After this Hegel thing, I was going to go bring it back to America.
02:34:20.000And the reflection of God could not exist without me, says Hegel.
02:34:25.000How in the world could you say, then, that Hegel's not a believer that man reflects God when he himself believes he reflects God and God reflects him and God can only see his own image in man?
02:35:09.000Do you think the incarnation, Jesus Christ, was necessary as a consequence of God's own being, that he had to be incarnated as a man through Jesus Christ?
02:35:21.000I can't answer yes or no, because I would have to go back and get the dictates of the terms from a theological perspective, what you mean by necessary.
02:35:30.000Like, as a necessary consequence of the very existence of God, like ontologically, he had to be incarnated as a man, as Christ, the Son.
02:35:41.000I think, it depends on how you're phrasing this, from the position of, did Jesus Christ need to become incarnated based on the orthodox vision of theology from God's intention?
02:37:21.000Then why do you self-describe as an agnostic so often?
02:37:26.000I think if I've in the past distanced myself toward religious identification, because I don't like religious hypocrisy.
02:37:33.000I don't like people who use it as a cudgel over people's heads and LARP with it and use it as an identity.
02:37:38.000I think it's more important to prove it by deed.
02:37:42.000Like, I'm a communist because I believe...
02:37:44.000If I believe in God and if I believe in the message of the prophets, it has to have a concrete and real living application.
02:37:51.000I can't just identify with all these different rules and all these different superficial, you know, I can't just words, you know, and that makes me the religious.
02:38:00.000No, you have to follow the spirit of the law.
02:38:02.000You have to follow the spirit of their teachings.
02:38:05.000Finish your thought, and then I want to bring this back, because the conversation was, what led to the, you know, degradation of the United States, and we've kind of like...
02:38:12.000Well, I told you it would go everywhere, right?
02:38:14.000Yeah, we went into religion, we went into, obviously, Russia, the so-bullshipping revolution.
02:38:20.000But Brian, if you don't mind, please, I do have to ask.
02:40:41.000So as a consequence, we have a satanic economic system where everyone's being looted and robbed and enslaved, and it's purely for mammon, right?
02:40:50.000You can't worship both money and God at the same time, that's what the Bible says.
02:40:54.000So as a consequence of us deviating from the spirit of the gospel, Right?
02:40:58.000Partially, at least, that's one of the causes.
02:41:00.000We have a situation of hypocrisy, where the conservative religious kind of authorities are hypocrites.
02:41:08.000They're preaching something, but in reality, look at the Republican Party.
02:41:12.000Look at the evangelicals in the Republican Party.
02:41:23.000They're supporting all manner of anti-human...
02:41:26.000Real actions, not just things people say, but actual ways in which we become defined as a people as far as how we relate to each other and our existence.
02:41:38.000If the way we feed ourselves is fundamentally rotten and unholy, I don't care what religious labels you're going to be throwing on yourself and how you're going to be identifying.
02:41:47.000You are participating in a reality that is conducive to wickedness, to evil.
02:42:43.000So there could be a Muslim guy who votes Democrat, but is like a saint in every other respect, and I have to nail him on the cross of hypocrisy just because he's doing one thing that I regard as bad.
02:44:00.000Can you explain logically how it's impossible for people to be moral under capitalism?
02:44:06.000It's impossible because people are thrusted into situations in which they have to make impossible decisions.
02:44:11.000If a woman has a child and the only way she feeds her child is by being a prostitute, should she let her child starve or should she be a prostitute?
02:44:19.000Impossible decisions like these are what define the nature of capitalism.
02:44:23.000You haven't expressed the impossibility of being moral under capitalism.
02:44:30.000If people do not, if there is no economic sovereignty, and it's not even a factor systemically that accounts for people's real existence, the need for them to feed themselves, the need for them to have an economic existence, it is inevitable that they're going to be thrusted into impossible situations where you can't really say they're immoral.
02:44:51.000Because the system itself is immoral and putting them in a fundamentally immoral position.
02:44:56.000Yeah, but that could be the criticism of all governance.
02:45:00.000Anytime the governmental body makes a bad decision, this criticism would apply to communism as well, that it could thrust the people into a situation.
02:45:10.000My question specifically to you, Haas, was, and I'm going to repeat it, and I need an answer to it, please.
02:45:21.000Okay, and what is the distinct metric, the delineation, which would make the allowance such that you could under communism, but never under capitalism?
02:45:33.000Because under communism, the way people feed themselves and the way that they account for their existence economically is not in a way that's contrary to their humanity.
02:46:18.000What is the delineation point which would guarantee that the population under capitalism has to be immoral, but under communism can be moral?
02:46:53.000If my neighbor is a child molester, fuck him, he should be, he should be, uh, sold out to the state.
02:46:58.000If he is making bombs in his basement and he's going to go do some crazy shit because he's been bribed by Britain or something to destroy my country, then I should sell him out.
02:47:07.000And if he's just against the government, you should sell him out.
02:47:09.000But Andrew, do you notice the distinction?
02:47:10.000Do you notice the distinction, though?
02:47:11.000As much as we want to be cynical about this point and it's funny...
02:47:14.000You know, the distinction is, though, the scenario you described doesn't necessarily have to be an immoral one.
02:47:21.000It's just that in capitalism it is necessarily immoral.
02:48:29.000My claim is that I believe that you could have a moral population under communism if you'll concede that you could have a moral population under capitalism.
02:48:38.000The distinction is, Haas says, under capitalism, no!
02:49:29.000If moral men can make profit, and they can be responsible with profit, profit can't be inherently bad.
02:49:35.000But this is what you're missing, I think.
02:49:37.000This is the problem with capitalism, in my view.
02:49:40.000Everyone can individually be moral, and not be saying, oh, you're an immoral individual.
02:49:45.000Even if we assume that was true, they're producing inadvertently a fundamentally immoral outcome, where no individual will be held responsible.
02:49:52.000What makes it immoral if all the people are moral?
02:49:54.000If people are falling deeper and deeper into destitution and pauperization, if people are falling into desperation, if people are having their livelihoods robbed of them, having everything alienated from them in terms of their means of production, guess what?
02:50:09.000It's going to lead to inadvertent outcomes that are not necessarily the result of one wicked individual will, but are the result of a wicked system.
02:50:18.000Can a system exist without individuals?
02:50:22.000But individuals, by virtue of their interdependency, of course the individual, any given society, though it's composed of individuals, produce an outcome inadvertent and irreducible to the sum of its parts.
02:50:45.000But I need to ask you, if the population desires this, whatever it is you think is immoral, if you can consider the population to be moral, and then you still say, well, the results of the population are immoral.
02:50:58.000What's the hypocrisy of saying that the population itself is moral?
02:51:04.000Because they're producing an outcome that is contrary to the moral purport that they're exercising individually.
02:51:09.000So how can every individual in a population be moral, but have an outcome which is immoral?
02:51:17.000Like I said, because men and women make history, but not as they please.
02:51:22.000Because history itself is the product of individuals producing outcomes that are not reducible, and even oftentimes contrary to their intentions individually.
02:51:31.000Hegel calls this the cunning of reason, actually.
02:51:33.000Yeah, no, let's move, we can even move back to Hegel.
02:52:38.000All you've done is claim that there's a possibility that an entire society could be moral, adopt capitalism, and then somehow it could be corrupted.
02:52:48.000You haven't demonstrated that it's necessary.
02:54:31.000Because what I mean, a people, you reproduce a specific mode of reproduction.
02:54:38.000Like, for example, you're passing down moors and norms between different peoples, and these moors, these norms, these relationships themselves could viably be reproduced across generations.
02:55:05.000Because a society isn't just made up Of an arbitrary number of individuals.
02:55:13.000A society is the inadvertent result of different individuals coming into relation with one another.
02:55:21.000In the case of a family, a single family unit, you couldn't really call that a society.
02:55:26.000Because in the very nature of what a society is, it already implies there's multiple different families who are mediating their relationships with one another in a specific way.
02:55:35.000If there's no individuals who exist on planet Earth other than one family, is that society?
02:55:40.000Honestly, it's just kind of like a retarded question.
02:55:42.000I don't think it's a retarded question.
02:55:44.000Saying it's retarded isn't an argument.
02:55:46.000If there's one family on planet Earth...
02:57:25.000When we use words, we're relying on people's intuitions and sensibilities.
02:57:29.000If we had to qualify every single word that we use in the most invariable, precise manner and never deviate from that, language itself would be impossible.
02:57:37.000There would be no way to communicate anything except math.
02:58:08.000When we're talking about a distinct concept, when you say, ah, you know, we can't define every single word or human language would become obsolete, I agree.
02:58:17.000So you think in order for me to use the word society, I have to establish absolute invariable definition?
02:59:43.000It would inevitably lead to widespread wickedness and immorality.
02:59:47.000Yeah, but you never demonstrated that, Oz.
02:59:48.000Okay, okay, because I'm trying to begin from somewhere with you.
02:59:51.000If we agree that capitalism as a system means profits are in command, even if there are some moral capitalists and some moral people, and I don't deny that they exist under capitalism, even the majority may be moral.
03:00:04.000But we will see the rise of widespread immorality and wickedness, not because of the shortcomings of individuals, but because of the nature of the system itself.
03:00:13.000Despite the fact that there are some capitalists that are moral, that doesn't change the fact that we're all participating in a fucking system that's producing immoral outcomes.
03:00:21.000For example, all of our tax dollars right now are going to Israel.
03:00:26.000Does that make me immoral, that I support personally immoral?
03:00:29.000Does that make you personally immoral?
03:01:29.000All I'm trying to tell you, I'm trying to use this as an example of how you and I can be moral individuals, but as an inadvertent consequence of the circumstances we find ourselves in, we are participating in producing an outcome we will agree as immoral.
03:01:47.000I don't know if you agree or disagree.
03:01:50.000But I think that the Zionist genocide is immoral.
03:02:07.000But I'm involved inadvertently in producing an immoral outcome.
03:02:12.000So it's the same for the nature of capitalism.
03:02:15.000And that's why I wanted to use it as an example.
03:02:17.000I'm going to have to give you some major pushback here.
03:02:20.000It doesn't seem to me that it would be necessary under capitalism to support a Zionist regime.
03:02:26.000Your failure here is to demonstrate why it would be that because capitalism exists, Zionism regime support must also exist with capitalism.
03:02:35.000What if I say, if it's not the Zionist regime, it would be something equivalent to the immorality of the Zionist regime.
03:02:50.000Do you think I've been ridiculous here?
03:02:52.000No, I just want to be able to, uninterrupted, give an explanation.
03:02:56.000So, the origins of capitalism itself, in order for everything to be pledged purely for the pursuit of profit and completely alienated from the tangible kind of concrete existence of traditions and relationships and societies people have, requires something that...
03:03:13.000I don't want to get into terminology and phrases you don't like, but it's called primitive accumulation, where, for example, through colonialism, you have You have capitalists come and separate people from what they call their natural means of production.
03:03:30.000So, for example, if a given group depends on this land to subsist and survive, and it's the bedrock of their society, their culture, and their traditions, you separate them from their means of survival.
03:03:40.000So in England, for example, they had the enclosure movement.
03:03:42.000You had a traditional rural life of peasant farmers.
03:03:45.000And they lived on farms, and this was the...
03:04:03.000Separating them from their means of production.
03:04:05.000And it's on this basis, on the basis of this violence and this theft, which happened on a world scale in the history of capitalism through colonialism, that the capitalist mode of production, that's what we call it, was able to be possible.
03:04:17.000Only when we violently uproot people from their traditional kind of normal ways of life and means of production is it even possible...
03:04:26.000For what they call general commodity production, where everything is subordinated and gobbled up purely for their pursuit of profit.
03:04:32.000For the only way for that to be possible is through the violence.
03:05:56.000I have to kill all opposition or half opposition.
03:06:00.000What makes one more moral than the other?
03:06:04.000Because the opposition under communism was not coming from the people.
03:06:10.000It was coming from antisocial elements that had benefited for a very long time from the immiseration and destruction and the same extermination process being committed in China and in Russia.
03:06:23.000That same process of primitive accumulation was ongoing.
03:06:26.000And a small minority of people were benefiting from that.
03:06:29.000So these are the ones that had the incentive to take up arms and rise against communism.
03:07:23.000...the entire versus just half, which is your opposition, is more moral than the opposition.
03:07:29.000Because, first of all, it's not just half.
03:07:30.000And second of all, basically what it boils down to is you don't understand why it's worse for...
03:07:36.000The wholesale extermination and destruction of entire civilizations and histories and peoples versus the suppression of counter-revolutionaries.
03:08:11.000People who had contrary belief systems that weren't even necessarily engaging in violence at all were ruthlessly suppressed and uprooted and killed on a mass scale.
03:08:57.000What is the thing that makes it a Christian state?
03:08:59.000According to the meaning of what we agree Christianity is, like the historically accepted conventional meaning, those were Christian states where the Orthodox Church was placed at the center of political supremacy and power.
03:10:25.000Maybe you could tell them why that is more immoral than, let's say, a communist who kills a million people because we need to push communism.
03:10:34.000His stance is, well, communists kill people too.
03:10:36.000I would like, okay, okay, I'll tell you this.
03:11:16.000And then they get in with a subscription, and that's, you know, it's a monthly thing, and then we do Zoom calls, and we answer questions, et cetera, have people interact with the, you know, creators that we have in, or we do Zoom calls on how to make money, how to get girls, how to improve yourself, or special guests that we have in that have certain skill sets.