Fresh & Fit - Religious Debate

00:02:08.000 And we are live.

00:02:09.000 What's up guys?

00:02:09.000 Welcome to Freshly Podcast.

00:02:10.000 We've got a special episode for you guys today.

00:02:12.000 We're going to be having a great debate on religion.

00:02:14.000 Islam versus Christianity. 0.98

00:02:16.000 Let's get into it guys.

00:02:17.000 Let's go!

00:03:07.000 And we are live.

00:03:08.000 What's up, guys?

00:03:08.000 Welcome to Fresh Fit Podcast, man.

00:03:10.000 We got a special one today for you guys.

00:03:11.000 We're going to have a religion debate, Islam versus Christianity. 0.64

00:03:13.000 Quick announcement before we get into the show, though.

00:03:15.000 First and foremost, romo.com slash freshfitcastclub.tv.

00:03:18.000 As you guys know, that's where you support free speech and support the team.

00:03:21.000 Castclub.tv is the main place to support.

00:03:23.000 So join up, guys.

00:03:24.000 We have a bunch of exclusive content behind the scenes for you guys over there.

00:03:27.000 And, yeah, guys, we got four...

00:03:30.000 Guys in the house, four special guests in the house, matter of fact, which I'll have real quickly go through.

00:03:35.000 We got Ejaz from EF Dawa.

00:03:39.000 We got Daniel Hakuguju.

00:03:43.000 And then we got Sam Shimoon and we got Jay Dyer as well.

00:03:47.000 I apologize if I butchered the name a little bit there.

00:03:51.000 But we're going to be doing a debate here on religion, guys.

00:03:55.000 Islam versus Christianity. 0.98

00:03:55.000 But I'm going to have you guys personally introduce yourselves. 0.98

00:03:59.000 I mean, I know who you guys are, but I want you guys to introduce yourselves to my audience.

00:04:02.000 We can start with Ejaz from EF Dawah.

00:04:06.000 Yep.

00:04:07.000 Hi, I'm Ejaz from EF Dower and the I3 Institute.

00:04:11.000 I hope that you can follow all our other accounts and join us on Twitter.

00:04:15.000 I'm a big fan and followed by the Daniel and I look forward to seeing how this debate goes.

00:04:22.000 Daniel, Tanya?

00:04:24.000 Sure.

00:04:25.000 My name is Daniel Hayratju.

00:04:26.000 I am a debater.

00:04:28.000 I have a channel, Muslim Skeptic, on YouTube.

00:04:31.000 You can also find me on Rumble.

00:04:32.000 And I founded MuslimSkeptic.com where we dedicate a lot of time to defending Islam against intellectual challenges, Christianity included.

00:04:40.000 So check that out.

00:04:41.000 Happy to be here.

00:04:42.000 Awesome.

00:04:43.000 And then can you tell them real quick about Jake?

00:04:44.000 Because I know some of them were expecting Jake to come in, but you could probably explain it best.

00:04:50.000 Sure, yeah.

00:04:50.000 Jake had a last-minute issue that came up, and he's not in the country, so he couldn't make it, unfortunately.

00:04:57.000 But yeah, we have Brother Ejaz here to replace him, and Ejaz stepped up at the last minute, so appreciate that.

00:05:04.000 Thank you for coming, brother.

00:05:07.000 And then Sam?

00:05:09.000 Well, Sam Shimon, I used to write for AnsweringIslam.info, but...

00:05:14.000 They stopped publishing new articles years ago, so I started a blog, answeringislamblog.wordpress.com.

00:05:22.000 You'll find me on Shemunia.

00:05:23.000 That's my YouTube channel.

00:05:25.000 Hopefully it stays up, but I'm also on Rumble, Answering Islam. 1.00

00:05:30.000 So that's pretty much my introduction.

00:05:33.000 Not much to say besides that.

00:05:35.000 Anyway.

00:05:36.000 Dave, you're coming on, man.

00:05:37.000 You were highly requested by a lot of the people, so from a lot of my supporters that are Christians.

00:05:41.000 A ball piece like me.

00:05:43.000 What was that? 0.96

00:05:45.000 I said a bald beast like me.

00:05:47.000 Yeah, a lot of my Christian supporters definitely asked me to bring you on, so I'm glad that you're here.

00:05:52.000 And then Jay, please introduce yourself to the people.

00:05:58.000 Yeah, thanks.

00:05:58.000 Glad to be here, Jay Dyer.

00:05:59.000 I do a lot of debates.

00:06:01.000 That's just part of what I do.

00:06:02.000 I host the fourth hour of Alex Jones every Friday.

00:06:05.000 I've been doing that for the last four years.

00:06:06.000 I've written several books on Hollywood, symbolism, philosophy, theology.

00:06:11.000 So we do all of that.

00:06:12.000 And you can find me on my website, Jay's Analysis, and then on all the social medias under Jay Dyer.

00:06:18.000 All right.

00:06:18.000 Awesome.

00:06:19.000 Thank you so much, guys.

00:06:20.000 So, real quick, we're going to have Mo read a quick word from our sponsor, and then we're going to get right into the debate.

00:06:26.000 Actually, I'll explain the breakdown of the debate for the audience real quick.

00:06:28.000 Go ahead, Mo.

00:06:29.000 Take it away, make it quick, and then we'll get right to it.

00:06:31.000 Who is that woman that walked by you, man? 1.00

00:06:35.000 I can't say.

00:06:37.000 This episode is sponsored by Birch Group.

00:06:41.000 Birch Gold Group.

00:06:43.000 We recently had some monumental news that no one is talking about.

00:06:48.000 For the first time ever, the interest the U.S. pays on its debts surpassed every individual budget item except Social Security.

00:06:57.000 That's right.

00:06:58.000 The U.S. now spends more on interest than on national defense or even Medicare.

00:07:05.000 And it's only getting worse as big government continues to spend recklessly.

00:07:10.000 That's why savvy Americans are turning to gold, something not tied to the inflated dollar.

00:07:17.000 You can too, with the help of Birch Gold Group.

00:07:21.000 For over 20 years, Birch Gold Group has helped tens of thousands of Americans protect their retirement savings by converting an IRA or 401k, an IRA gold.

00:07:35.000 To learn more, go to BirchGold.com slash Rumble and get a free no-obligation info kit on diversifying your retirement into a gold IRA. Birch Gold has earned an A-plus rating with the BBB,

00:07:53.000 the Better Business Bureau, and thousands of happy customers.

00:07:57.000 Protect your IRA or 401k.

00:08:00.000 Go to birchgold.com slash rumble and get your free info kit on gold today.

00:08:07.000 And thank you, Birch Gold, for sponsoring this episode.

00:08:11.000 Alright, awesome.

00:08:12.000 So, thank you very much, Mark.

00:08:14.000 So guys, the way it's going to go is this.

00:08:15.000 I'll explain it real quick for you.

00:08:16.000 We're going to have a five-minute opening between both parties.

00:08:19.000 Team Islam is going to go first. 1.00

00:08:21.000 Then we're going to go into topic one, which is theology, the Trinity versus the Taweed.

00:08:25.000 Then we're going to go into authenticity of Scripture, which is round two.

00:08:29.000 And then we're going to do morality, Bible versus the Quran on human rights, okay? 0.60

00:08:33.000 We're going to be doing three four-minute rounds, okay?

00:08:37.000 So 12 rounds total.

00:08:39.000 So three four-minute...

00:08:41.000 Three four-minute rounds is what we're going to do, guys.

00:08:44.000 And each team has four minutes per argument.

00:08:46.000 They're going to be able to go ahead and make their argument uninterrupted for four minutes.

00:08:50.000 If one party decides to go two minutes or take three minutes or take the full four minutes, it's fine.

00:08:54.000 But it's going to be between the team.

00:08:56.000 But the first round is opening statements where Team Islam is going to take it first, and they're going to go for five minutes.

00:09:01.000 Then Team Christian is going to go.

00:09:02.000 They're going to go into the first topic, which again...

00:09:04.000 It's theology, Trinity versus the Taweed. 0.91

00:09:06.000 Second round is going to be authenticity of scripture.

00:09:08.000 And then third round is going to be morality, Bible versus the Quran on human rights.

00:09:12.000 And we agreed upon all this beforehand.

00:09:14.000 I want to make sure that this is even down the middle.

00:09:16.000 I'll be keeping time for the squad.

00:09:18.000 I'll be saying 30 seconds and then 10 seconds when they're running into the last 30 and 10 seconds respectively.

00:09:23.000 And other than that, Team Islam, Team Christianity, are you guys good? 0.99

00:09:29.000 Yep.

00:09:30.000 All right, awesome.

00:09:32.000 So I got five minutes on the clock.

00:09:34.000 I'm going to go ahead and turn it to Team Islam for opening statements.

00:09:38.000 Give me one sec, let me...

00:09:42.000 Okay.

00:09:44.000 All right, Team Islam, you guys ready?

00:09:46.000 Yes, can you hear me?

00:09:47.000 Yeah, I got you.

00:09:48.000 We got you loud and clear.

00:09:50.000 I'm assuming, Dan, you're going to take it first?

00:09:52.000 Yes.

00:09:53.000 All right, man.

00:09:54.000 Timer is on.

00:09:57.000 Go ahead.

00:10:01.000 Islam is monotheistic. 0.95

00:10:03.000 There is only one God.

00:10:05.000 This is known as Tawheed.

00:10:08.000 Christianity is polytheistic because Christians worship three separate gods known as the Trinity.

00:10:14.000 Christians claim that this is false.

00:10:16.000 The Trinity is not three separate gods, the Trinity is three in one.

00:10:20.000 But does this claim make sense?

00:10:23.000 First of all, there's a logical contradiction in the Trinity.

00:10:26.000 How can the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit all be one God, but they also not be identical beings?

00:10:32.000 The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God.

00:10:36.000 It's all one God, but the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, and neither of them are the Holy Spirit.

00:10:41.000 This is a logical contradiction.

00:10:43.000 The only way to solve the contradiction is to admit that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate gods, not just one God.

00:10:50.000 This is, of course, polytheism.

00:10:53.000 As Muslims, we challenge Sam and Jay to resolve this logical contradiction for the audience.

00:10:58.000 Explain to us how the Father, Son, and Spirit are all one God but they're not identical with each other and explain it in a way that the average layperson can understand it.

00:11:07.000 A layperson can understand that God is one.

00:11:10.000 He is one God and he can have multiple attributes.

00:11:13.000 That's Islamic monotheism.

00:11:14.000 I can explain it in one sentence.

00:11:16.000 Can Sam and Jay explain the Trinity without resorting to a bunch of convoluted gobbledygook?

00:11:21.000 We'll see.

00:11:23.000 What Sam and Jay want to do is to try to claim that Islam's conception of God is actually just as complicated as the Trinity.

00:11:29.000 This is a cheap debate tactic, as we'll see.

00:11:32.000 They can't address the logical problem of the Trinity, so they want to make it seem like we have the same problem in Islam.

00:11:38.000 But we don't.

00:11:39.000 There is nothing analogous to the logical problem of the Trinity in Islam.

00:11:42.000 For example, they might claim that Allah's attributes in Islam are incoherent.

00:11:47.000 No, they're not.

00:11:48.000 We can all understand how a person can have multiple attributes, how God can be all-knowing, all-powerful, merciful, loving, etc.

00:11:55.000 This is not hard to understand.

00:11:57.000 Those attributes of God are not separate people with their own minds.

00:12:01.000 But according to the Bible, Jesus and the Father have separate knowledge.

00:12:05.000 They have separate wills.

00:12:07.000 For example, in Mark 13.32, in the Bible we read, So the Son doesn't know when the Day of Judgment is, but the Father does know.

00:12:21.000 So this indicates two separate minds.

00:12:24.000 This is polytheism.

00:12:25.000 There are more examples that we can cite in the rebuttal sections, but keep in mind that in the 7th century, the official position of the Church in the Third Council of Constantinople, they held the position that Jesus has two wills.

00:12:37.000 The Church defined Jesus as having two energies and two wills, one divine and one human.

00:12:42.000 Two separate wills means two separate minds.

00:12:46.000 This means that Jesus and the Father have two separate minds and are therefore two separate entities.

00:12:50.000 You either explain this by admitting it is polytheism, or you have to give us some convoluted explanation of how two minds or three minds are still one God.

00:12:59.000 There's nothing analogous to this in Islamic theology.

00:13:02.000 Islam says there's one God.

00:13:04.000 He has knowledge, he has will, one will, one knowledge.

00:13:07.000 These things are not divided between multiple persons or energies or anything like that.

00:13:12.000 And all of this Islamic monotheism is clearly expressed in the Quran, by the way.

00:13:16.000 Contrast this with the Bible.

00:13:18.000 Jesus is meant to be God, all-knowing, and the only teacher to the disciples, but the Jesus of the Gospels doesn't describe the doctrines of the Trinity.

00:13:25.000 We have to rely on Paul and the Church Fathers to explain what the Trinity is.

00:13:29.000 That's strange.

00:13:30.000 If God wants us to know Him, believe in Him, lay the foundation for a general understanding of Him, why would He leave that to different authors at different times and different places over several centuries, such that when God is finally described in Scripture, it results in a mystery, and we need all these church councils to figure it out.

00:13:47.000 The way that Christians have come to understand the Trinity is what we'd expect if God did not reveal the doctrines of the Trinity. 0.59

00:13:53.000 On the other hand, God in the Quran revealed four short lines that any human being can read and instantly understand who God is and what his attributes are.

00:14:02.000 This is exactly what we would expect from an all-knowing, wise, just, merciful, and loving God who cares about his creation.

00:14:09.000 The four lines are the 112th chapter of the Quran.

00:14:23.000 Thank you.

00:14:24.000 All right.

00:14:25.000 Still got roughly 30 seconds on the clock, but I'll end it there.

00:14:29.000 I will turn it to Team Christianity. 0.99

00:14:32.000 We'll put another five minutes on the clock for you guys.

00:14:35.000 Let me first, Jay, you want me to go or you go?

00:14:37.000 Either way.

00:14:38.000 Go ahead.

00:14:39.000 What's up?

00:14:39.000 Okay, let me go.

00:14:40.000 Okay.

00:14:40.000 Timer's on.

00:14:41.000 Ready?

00:14:41.000 All right.

00:14:42.000 Praise be the Father, Son of the Holy Spirit, the one true God, and glory to the Son of God who became flesh for our salvation.

00:14:48.000 May the Lord Jesus be magnified and the falsehood of Tawheed exposed. 1.00

00:14:52.000 Now, notice what Daniel did.

00:14:55.000 Instead of focusing on what it means for Allah to be one, he spent the bulk of his time criticizing the Trinity, but we will answer his objections in a rebuttal period, but I'm now going to turn against him, because not so fast.

00:15:08.000 When he says he believes in Tawhid, what exactly does it mean for Allah to be one?

00:15:13.000 Because I'm aware that Daniel does believe the fact that the Quran is uncreated.

00:15:19.000 And therefore, we now have two distinct eternal entities that are not identical.

00:15:24.000 Why?

00:15:25.000 Because I'm going to show Daniel from his authentic sources, sahih narrations, that the Quran and the chapters of the Quran actually want to see and debate with Allah.

00:15:35.000 So now we have...

00:15:37.000 A paradox.

00:15:38.000 Because if the Quran is a speech of Allah, and that's Allah speaking, is Allah speaking to himself? 0.88

00:15:42.000 So is Daniel actually a modalist?

00:15:44.000 Or is he a polytheist?

00:15:45.000 Or does he have a form of a trinity?

00:15:47.000 But his is even worse, because it's not three persons, because each chapter of the Quran He has the potentiality of speaking with Allah.

00:15:54.000 So that means his God consists of at least 115 divine persons or divine beings who can interact with one another and appear separately.

00:16:02.000 And this is all from his authentic narrations.

00:16:04.000 Secondly, the second problem he has is that according to the Quran, the spirit of Allah is not Gabriel.

00:16:10.000 So I'm going to now press him in rebuttal period to prove otherwise.

00:16:14.000 There's not a single verse in the Quran that says the spirit is Jibril.

00:16:19.000 He's now dependent on the very scholars of Islam that come centuries later to bail out Allah and his messenger, because that's what he accused the Lord Jesus, that Jesus wasn't clear enough to articulate the Trinity, but he did make an admission, which is now going to come and bite him.

00:16:34.000 He admitted Paul taught the Trinity.

00:16:36.000 It's now recorded.

00:16:37.000 I want everyone to hear it.

00:16:38.000 Paul taught the Trinity, because when we come to the scriptures, I'm going to show that even the Quran acknowledges that Paul was used by Allah to spread the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

00:16:46.000 More to come.

00:16:47.000 The spirit according to the Quran is distinct from Allah.

00:16:50.000 He appears as a man.

00:16:51.000 He speaks and creates.

00:16:52.000 So now if we add the spirit to the Quran and Allah, he's got about 116 divine persons or beings and he doesn't have a singular person called Allah.

00:17:03.000 Then we can go a little further and adjust the issue of the fact that according to our friend here, this is his belief, Allah has...

00:17:13.000 Well, he wouldn't use the term body parts.

00:17:15.000 I don't want to misrepresent them.

00:17:17.000 Allah has a foot. 0.97

00:17:19.000 He has a shin.

00:17:20.000 He even has loins.

00:17:22.000 And he has at least two eyes, if not more, and two right hands.

00:17:25.000 Now, for the life of me, if Allah is the creator of the heavens and the earth, how does he exist as an embodied being without him dwelling in space?

00:17:34.000 Because if he's atemporal and he's timeless, that means his God supposedly exists when there was no time, space, and place.

00:17:41.000 But if you have a foot and you have a shin, And you have two right hands.

00:17:45.000 I don't know what happened to the left one, but we'll get into that.

00:17:48.000 Two right hands, at least two eyes.

00:17:50.000 In fact, the Arabic says three or more, but we'll get into that.

00:17:52.000 Then that means his God is an embodied being who is temporal and finite, which means that his God did not create all space or place and time because there's a space that his body parts need to occupy In order for him to be his god.

00:18:07.000 So the problem is actually worse for Daniel than for us.

00:18:10.000 So he's going to have to explain how is it that he's a polytheist, pagan, masquerading as a monotheist.

00:18:17.000 Because what he just told you is not anchoring the Quran or the authentic sunnah of Muhammad.

00:18:23.000 So good luck in trying to defend your rational Salafi anthropomorphism. 0.94

00:18:28.000 And last time I checked, his partner doesn't share his Salafi anthropomorphism.

00:18:32.000 So we're going to have a field day.

00:18:33.000 Now how much time do I have?

00:18:35.000 One minute to go.

00:18:36.000 110.

00:18:36.000 Hey, you want to take the last minute?

00:18:37.000 Go ahead, brother.

00:18:38.000 Yeah, I'd like to point out that in Daniel's opening statement, he also committed a fallacy, which is a form of Occam's Razor fallacy.

00:18:45.000 He kept appealing to the fact that because it's simple, then it must be obvious it must be the case.

00:18:50.000 Just because something seems or appears to be simpler or more obvious or because it was only four short and simple things, Sentences has nothing to do with whether it's true or false.

00:18:59.000 In fact, as we're going to see, the Muslims amongst themselves and their various schools all compete and disagree and fight not only over the attributes, but also over jurisprudence. 0.97

00:19:11.000 Okay.

00:19:12.000 Great.

00:19:13.000 So, this is a little bit of time.

00:19:15.000 So, that concludes opening statements.

00:19:18.000 Obviously, that segues perfectly into our first thing.

00:19:22.000 What I'll do is, do we have any chats to read?

00:19:25.000 You know, we'll just go right into the first one, guys.

00:19:27.000 Get your chats in now, and I'll read them after the first round, after opening statements.

00:19:32.000 Segues perfectly into round one, which is theology.

00:19:35.000 Trinity versus the Ta'wid. 1.00

00:19:37.000 I'm going to turn it back to Team Islam. 1.00

00:19:40.000 I'm going to put four minutes on the clock for you guys.

00:19:46.000 Are you guys ready?

00:19:49.000 Alright.

00:19:50.000 Bills, do you have the clock or do you want me to do it here?

00:19:52.000 Yeah, four minutes for this one.

00:19:54.000 From this point forward, it's going to be four minutes.

00:19:55.000 It's just opening statements that we're five.

00:19:59.000 Once you guys start talking, we'll hit the clock.

00:20:02.000 We'll do that, Bill, to make it easier.

00:20:03.000 Once they start talking, we'll hit the clock.

00:20:07.000 Okay, I guess I'll go first here.

00:20:08.000 Bismillah, alhamdulillah, salatu wa s-salatu wa s-salamu ala rasulullah.

00:20:11.000 Notice that for this debate, Sam Shimon had to create a religion, a mockery, something which does not actually exist, in order to argue against the Muslims. 0.63

00:20:22.000 No Muslim believes that Allah is 115 persons. 0.99

00:20:26.000 Not even the Christians who didn't understand Islam, like John of Damascus, could come up with something so ridiculous. 0.81

00:20:33.000 But we will find that this is the case in Christian theology, that God is another being. 0.92

00:20:39.000 I mean, I do believe that they...

00:20:41.000 I do think that they believe in, what's his name?

00:20:46.000 Justin Marta.

00:20:47.000 Saying that there's another entity.

00:20:49.000 Of course, they would like to revise that, but that's what he literally says.

00:20:53.000 When it comes to the New Testament, Jesus says a person cannot have two masters, or rather that he cannot serve two lords.

00:21:02.000 We look at the Jesus of the New Testament, he's at odds with the Christian understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity.

00:21:09.000 We can even go a step further than this.

00:21:11.000 For us Muslims, yes, the Qur'an describes Allah in a simple way, but from this we get a comprehensive understanding.

00:21:20.000 We say that this is a or speech which is extensive.

00:21:24.000 You can ask us almost any question about the nature of Allah and in those four short passages we can understand it.

00:21:31.000 To the point that if I were to compare this with the Bible, I would not be able to find four verses that simply and reasonably explain the nature of God.

00:21:41.000 If God loved us, He cared for us, and He was merciful for us, then there's a duty there, a justice, where He would want us to understand Him.

00:21:50.000 But our Christian colleagues fundamentally cannot and do not understand God. 0.74

00:21:55.000 I'll give one simple example here.

00:21:57.000 The God of the Quran was able to describe Himself as one, absolutely one, meaning nothing. 0.92

00:22:02.000 The God of the Bible allegedly describes Himself as begotten, A word of which the meaning we cannot know and which we know has actually changed.

00:22:11.000 For those who don't know, the God of the Bible, when he says that he is begotten, this comes from the Greek word monogenes.

00:22:18.000 Unfortunately, that word today is not translated as unique.

00:22:22.000 So if you're a Christian, does it matter to you that the Bible does not teach what you actually believe?

00:22:27.000 My friend here, Sam, actually teaches that if a thing, an ideal belief, cannot stand being tested by the Bible, then it is false.

00:22:36.000 So I would like to ask him, where is the belief that Jesus is begotten using the Greek of the New Testament?

00:22:41.000 Brother Daniel.

00:22:43.000 Yeah, I just want to say that they did exactly what I predicted in the opening statement.

00:22:48.000 They wouldn't address the Trinity at all and the clear logical contradiction of the Trinity that everyone is aware of.

00:22:54.000 They had to bring up these unrelated issues like the uncreatedness of the Quran or that God, Allah, has hands, for example.

00:23:02.000 This has nothing to do with monotheism.

00:23:05.000 Maybe they don't understand what Tawheed means.

00:23:07.000 Tawheed means one God.

00:23:08.000 It means monotheism.

00:23:10.000 And this is the claim that we're making, that polytheism is the Trinity.

00:23:13.000 The Trinity is polytheism.

00:23:15.000 So tell me how.

00:23:16.000 I want them to explain, since their whole opening statement was bringing up the issue of the uncreatedness of the Quran and the hand of Allah, how does that contradict Monotheism.

00:23:28.000 How does God having a hand?

00:23:30.000 However you want to explain that hand.

00:23:32.000 It has nothing to do, by the way, with Salafi or the other theological schools of Kalam and Islam.

00:23:38.000 All of the schools are united on this.

00:23:40.000 All Muslims are united on this.

00:23:42.000 God having a hand does not mean that...

00:23:45.000 The hand has its own mind, that the hand is its own entity, its own god, its own person.

00:23:50.000 No theologian has ever said that.

00:23:52.000 There's no challenge to monotheism of Islam by bringing up the hand or the Qur'an or anything like that.

00:24:01.000 Or the shin.

00:24:02.000 Yeah, and again, like you just said perfectly, 115 separate gods with minds.

00:24:08.000 The Qur'an doesn't have its own mind.

00:24:10.000 That is time.

00:24:11.000 Okay.

00:24:12.000 I will turn it over to Team Christianity here. 0.94

00:24:16.000 This is the bottom of the first round here.

00:24:21.000 Bilzi, we got the timer for them. 0.94

00:24:23.000 Four minutes again on the clock.

00:24:24.000 And when you guys start speaking, we'll start the clock once you start speaking.

00:24:28.000 Jay, do you want to go or do you want me to go?

00:24:32.000 Let me have one or two minutes and I'll turn it to you.

00:24:36.000 So I did want to address what Daniel said because, of course, he misstated several things about what our position is.

00:24:42.000 First of all, the argument about attributes was not that you believe that they're persons.

00:24:47.000 Sam was making an analogy to show that you have the exact same problem in your position, and you have a double standard when you try to say that we have to solve this Trinitarian dilemma.

00:24:56.000 It's a contradiction.

00:24:57.000 But your view of the attributes is is not subject to that problem.

00:25:01.000 That's just a double standard.

00:25:02.000 What's the point?

00:25:02.000 Nobody said that you believe that the attributes are persons, so that's a misdirection.

00:25:06.000 First of all, didn't Hikishu already admit that Paul taught the Trinity?

00:25:10.000 And I think Ijaz disagreed with that.

00:25:13.000 So which one is it?

00:25:13.000 Did Paul teach the Trinity or did he not?

00:25:15.000 And then I would also add that Christ does not have a human person, and that's why the notion about divine mind It's a two-mind scenario where he shares a divine mind with the Father, and he has limitations in his human mind.

00:25:29.000 That's why it's two minds.

00:25:30.000 So you tried to say that he had one mind, and it was separate knowledge.

00:25:34.000 The expression where he says that he's limited in knowledge is a reference to rhetoric, and if you can read St.

00:25:40.000 Basil, Letter 234, 5, and 6, he talks about these issues and explains that just as Jesus says in other places that there's no one good but God.

00:25:48.000 He's not literally saying that there's no one else good because in other passages he calls himself good.

00:25:52.000 He calls the Holy Spirit good as well, and so it's a feature of rhetoric.

00:25:56.000 You have the same types of expressions in your own Quranic exegesis where you try to solve these dilemmas, but you don't want us to have that right.

00:26:05.000 Sam, I'll throw it to you.

00:26:06.000 Yeah, notice how Daniel conveniently wants to evade what the topic is.

00:26:10.000 The topic is Trinity versus Tawheed.

00:26:12.000 But I know he can't defend Tawheed because it's irrational.

00:26:14.000 So he just wants to attack the Trinity, thinking that Tawheed wins by default.

00:26:18.000 Daniel, you're the one who set up the topic, Trinity versus Tawheed.

00:26:21.000 You didn't want to do it separately, so stop whining about it.

00:26:24.000 Now, coming back to the issue, maybe you didn't hear what I said.

00:26:28.000 The Qur'an must have a mind independent from your God if the Qur'an is going to argue with your God and the individual chapters.

00:26:34.000 Here, Sahih Muslim, book 4, number 1757.

00:26:39.000 Abu Umama said he heard Allah's messengers say, recite the Qur'an for on the day of resurrection, it will come as an intercessor for those who recite it.

00:26:46.000 How does the speech of Allah intercede with Allah if it's a speech of Allah? 0.96

00:26:50.000 Is Allah speaking to himself in a different mode?

00:26:52.000 Then you are a modalist.

00:26:53.000 So your tawhid is modalism, but then it gets worse for you.

00:26:57.000 Recite the two bright ones, Al-Baqarah and Surah Al-Imran, chapters 2 and 3.

00:27:01.000 For on the day of resurrection they will come as two clouds or two shades or two flocks of birds and ranks, pleading for those who recite them.

00:27:06.000 Pleading with who?

00:27:07.000 With themselves?

00:27:08.000 If the surahs of the Qur'an can appear independently, separately, and appear in visible form, and argue with Allah, that's either your God, being schizophrenic, arguing with himself in different modes, so you're a modalist, Or you have now separate gods argue with one another, so you're a polytheist,

00:27:23.000 or you have to believe that Tawhid encompasses a plurality of distinct entities who can then interact and argue with one another.

00:27:31.000 So don't run and evade, which are smoke and mirror tactics, deal with the issue.

00:27:35.000 You didn't understand what I meant about your god's body parts.

00:27:38.000 Even though you don't like to use the term body parts.

00:27:40.000 And no, not all the Sunnis define the hand of Allah as meaning what you mean, because you have those that say that it's a metaphor for His power.

00:27:50.000 You do not believe this.

00:27:51.000 So I'm still trying to figure out, do you believe in a finite God who assumes time and space?

00:27:56.000 Because if He has a hand...

00:27:58.000 Two right hands.

00:27:59.000 What happened to his left?

00:28:00.000 Maybe you can explain.

00:28:01.000 He has a shin.

00:28:02.000 He has loins.

00:28:04.000 That means he's an embodied being.

00:28:06.000 If he's an embodied being, he requires space.

00:28:08.000 Unless you want to create another contradiction with the irrational Salafi anthropomorphism. 0.81

00:28:15.000 Still 20 on the clock?

00:28:16.000 Okay.

00:28:16.000 I'm sorry, yeah, I didn't know because I'm trying to speak past making time.

00:28:19.000 So yeah, Daniel, remember what the topic is.

00:28:21.000 I know maybe sometimes, being a little intimidated, you forget.

00:28:25.000 Trinity versus Tawheed.

00:28:27.000 Don't run from shouldering the burden of proof.

00:28:31.000 Alright.

00:28:32.000 So, I will turn it back.

00:28:34.000 That completes round one.

00:28:36.000 Well, yeah, the first set of rounds.

00:28:39.000 We're going to go into round two of this.

00:28:41.000 I'm going to turn it back to Team Islam here. 1.00

00:28:45.000 Again, with Talweed versus the Trinity.

00:28:48.000 Daniel, I'll turn it back to you, or EF, or either one of you that wants to take it, for four minutes on the clock.

00:28:55.000 Yeah, I'll take this.

00:28:56.000 So, this is quite simple.

00:28:59.000 How is it possible that they don't understand that the Qur'an also uses rhetoric?

00:29:04.000 In fact, in the Qur'an, Allah says He uses examples of every kind.

00:29:08.000 So, it's not that hard to understand it.

00:29:10.000 But there is a problem here for Jay, because Jay seems to think that in Mark 13, 32, this is simple rhetoric.

00:29:16.000 Unfortunately, the scribes of the Bible did not see it that way, Which is why they had to repeatedly change those words over several centuries.

00:29:24.000 They clearly saw a problem with it.

00:29:26.000 If there was no problem, why did the scribes change it?

00:29:29.000 Unfortunately, Jay, the scribes factually disagree with you.

00:29:32.000 I'm sorry, but someone later, like St.

00:29:34.000 Basil, trying to allegorize it is not going to solve the physical problem of your scribes changing the Bible.

00:29:40.000 Secondly, Sam seems to not understand basic Islam.

00:29:45.000 He begins by asking, what is Tawheed?

00:29:47.000 Good question.

00:29:47.000 Let me teach you.

00:29:48.000 Allah is absolutely one.

00:29:50.000 Allah has distinct attributes.

00:29:53.000 And Allah does not need anything. 0.77

00:29:55.000 He's not multiple persons.

00:29:56.000 He doesn't rely on anyone or anything other than himself.

00:30:00.000 He is beginningless and endless, meaning he's the first and the last.

00:30:05.000 If I were to ask The God of the Bible, is He the first and the last?

00:30:09.000 We know that very recently, the scholars at the ECM have decided that God the Father in Revelation 21 6 actually became the first and the last.

00:30:19.000 That's a problem for the Trinity.

00:30:21.000 Do you believe that God had to become the first and the last?

00:30:24.000 Who made Him the first and the last?

00:30:26.000 For us, that just seems unreasonable nonsense.

00:30:28.000 Daniel?

00:30:30.000 Yeah, so Sam wants to make a big deal about the Quran speaking.

00:30:36.000 So he read that hadith.

00:30:39.000 Sam is not familiar with the Quran.

00:30:41.000 So in chapter 36, verse 65, we read in the Quran,"...on that day we shall seal up their mouths, but their hands will speak to us, and their feet bear witness to everything they have done." Does that mean that our hands and feet have minds?

00:30:56.000 Did any Muslim in history ever interpret that verse that the hands and feet of our own bodies have minds? 0.97

00:31:03.000 Yet they will speak for or against us on the day of judgment.

00:31:07.000 So this is an interpretation that he has that no one has ever made in the history of Islam.

00:31:14.000 But many Christians and theologians and church fathers have debated and discussed the knowledge of Jesus being different from the knowledge of the Father, and the will of Jesus being different from the will of the Father.

00:31:29.000 Jesus has a separate human will, and this is what they will not explain.

00:31:34.000 Also, So, yeah, explain that problem, that contradiction.

00:31:41.000 God having a hand, guess what?

00:31:42.000 That's a problem for the Trinity as well, because the New Testament in Acts 7.55 describes Jesus as standing at the right hand of the Father.

00:31:54.000 So what is the right hand of the Father?

00:31:57.000 Is that in space?

00:31:58.000 Does the Father have a body?

00:32:00.000 Can you explain that?

00:32:01.000 What is the hand, the right hand of the Father?

00:32:04.000 Does he have a left hand?

00:32:06.000 Does the Father have a body?

00:32:08.000 Like, does the Father have two sides?

00:32:10.000 Explain that verse within Acts, and that's in the New Testament, so I'm very interested to understand if this is a corporeal, physical Father or not, or what does the Bible mean?

00:32:22.000 Do we have an explanation of that?

00:32:23.000 So this, it doesn't matter if you take the hand of God to be metaphorical, if you take it to be bilakef, meaning without modality.

00:32:31.000 That doesn't contradict to hate.

00:32:33.000 It doesn't contradict monotheism.

00:32:35.000 Explain how having a hand, God having a hand means that it's not monotheism.

00:32:40.000 That's what you can't do.

00:32:44.000 Do you want to go or do you want me to go?

00:32:46.000 Do you have time left?

00:32:49.000 Yeah, you still have 10 seconds, but it's windling down now.

00:32:53.000 Okay.

00:32:54.000 Let me ask Jay, though, because we don't know.

00:32:57.000 Do you want me to split the time with you or do you want me to take the four minutes?

00:33:00.000 I've got about one or two minutes.

00:33:02.000 You can go ahead.

00:33:02.000 Why don't you go with your one or two minutes?

00:33:03.000 Before you guys go, Dan, did you get everything out that you needed to get there?

00:33:06.000 Because I think there might have been a confusion on the time.

00:33:09.000 Yeah, I got everything out, thanks.

00:33:11.000 Okay, all right, cool.

00:33:11.000 Just wanted to make sure it's all good.

00:33:13.000 All right, Jay, you're going to kick it off on this one?

00:33:15.000 Right, so going back to the text about the limitation of Jesus' knowledge, he said the scribes changed it.

00:33:27.000 If the scribes changed it, why is it still in the text talking about the exaggeration of the limitation of his knowledge?

00:33:34.000 When I said exaggeration or rhetoric, I didn't say allegory.

00:33:37.000 So I don't think Yajaz knows the difference between the grammatical terms of exaggeration and allegory.

00:33:43.000 I did not say it's an allegory.

00:33:44.000 It's similar to other passages where Jesus talks about straining a gnat, swallowing camels.

00:33:50.000 It's called exaggeration.

00:33:52.000 And so in the same way, he can say, no one is good but God.

00:33:55.000 Okay, nobody believes that that literally means that there's literally no one good.

00:33:59.000 Like, the prophets weren't good, Jesus isn't good, the Spirit isn't good.

00:34:02.000 No.

00:34:03.000 He's talking about no one is good but God the Father in a specific sense of God being the Father being the arche, the principle, the fount, and the cause.

00:34:10.000 The last thing I'll say is that we're not subject to the same problems as you guys, well, particularly Daniel, because we don't have the anthropomorphic error about God the Father.

00:34:19.000 So what we believe about the mode of the sun coming into time and space, you have that same issue with Allah Himself.

00:34:27.000 You're saying that Allah has these parts, which you say are attributes.

00:34:30.000 And by the way, don't you two disagree on the status of those attributes between yourselves?

00:34:36.000 Go ahead, Sam.

00:34:37.000 Yeah, let me piggyback off of what he just said.

00:34:40.000 Now, he was talking about that the Quran talks about hands and hands speaking, they don't have minds. 0.96

00:34:45.000 How do you know that?

00:34:46.000 Where did the text tell you that?

00:34:48.000 Notice his appeal to authority.

00:34:50.000 He says, well, no Muslim scholar.

00:34:51.000 Yes, I know you live in denial, just like you live in denial that you're pagans and polytheists for a variety of issues, especially kissing the black stone.

00:34:59.000 It doesn't matter what your scholars say.

00:35:01.000 It's what you can prove.

00:35:01.000 So prove to me that when hands and feet are speak, they're mindless.

00:35:05.000 So now let's take an analogy with the Qur'an.

00:35:07.000 So a mindless Qur'an will be engaging Allah. 0.99

00:35:10.000 So you're gonna have the Qur'an engaging with Allah, even though it doesn't have a mind of its own. 0.95

00:35:15.000 So now we're back to square one.

00:35:16.000 If the Qur'an is the speech of Allah, how does Allah's speech speak to Himself?

00:35:20.000 Is Allah speaking to Himself?

00:35:22.000 But in a different mode?

00:35:23.000 You didn't answer that dilemma.

00:35:24.000 Now coming back to the issue of God in the right hand.

00:35:27.000 Unlike you, According to the scriptures, unlike your position as a Salafi anthropomorphist, the Bible says God is spirit. 0.98

00:35:37.000 So I'm going to challenge you to show me in your Quran where it says your Allah is spirit.

00:35:40.000 And in the context of John 4.24, God is spirit, meaning that he is bodiless and corporeal because he's the creator of heavens and earth.

00:35:47.000 But that God can appear visibly.

00:35:50.000 God the Father appears visibly in heaven.

00:35:52.000 That's Daniel 7 9 verses 10.

00:35:54.000 Chapter 7 verses 9 to 10.

00:35:56.000 Revelation chapter 4.

00:35:57.000 So when it says that Jesus in his glorified physical body enters this heavenly realm where angels dwell, heaven itself is created and God can manifest in heaven and Jesus physically being seen by the inhabitants of heaven sitting at the right hand of the Father who appears visibly.

00:36:14.000 But you don't believe that about the body parts of your God.

00:36:17.000 You're not like Ijaz Amaturidi.

00:36:20.000 You believe your God has two right hands.

00:36:22.000 Where's the left one?

00:36:23.000 I'm still waiting for the answer.

00:36:24.000 He has loins, he has a shin, and he's going to put his foot over health, and then you have the womb yanking on his loins. 0.97

00:36:31.000 That's inside Bukhari.

00:36:32.000 How many seconds do I have?

00:36:34.000 You got 50 seconds.

00:36:36.000 You're good.

00:36:36.000 Keep going.

00:36:36.000 50?

00:36:37.000 50 seconds, yep.

00:36:38.000 So, now, come back and address your polytheistic pagan beliefs.

00:36:44.000 Since the chapters of the Qur'an can appear separately, in visible form, and they are interceding with Allah, they're disputing with Allah, how if the Qur'an is the speech of Allah?

00:36:56.000 Time up.

00:36:56.000 No, no, 30, 30.

00:36:57.000 I'm just saying 30.

00:36:58.000 Okay.

00:36:59.000 How is the Quran, how are the individual surahs of the Quran disputing with Allah according to you?

00:37:05.000 No one thinks they have a mind.

00:37:07.000 So mindless surahs have the mind enough to know who recites them, who to defend and argue on behalf of, and argue with Allah when this is supposedly a speech of Allah. 0.99

00:37:18.000 So is your Allah speaking to himself? 0.97

00:37:20.000 Schizophrenic deity? 0.71

00:37:22.000 Anyway, I think my time is up.

00:37:23.000 Go ahead.

00:37:23.000 Okay, that is time now.

00:37:26.000 So we're going to go into round three now.

00:37:30.000 This is the final round of Dawid versus Trinity.

00:37:33.000 This is the top of the last round.

00:37:35.000 Four minutes on the clock.

00:37:37.000 I'll turn it to Team Islam here. 0.81

00:37:38.000 Whenever you guys go, we'll start the timer.

00:37:44.000 You guys do want to go?

00:37:46.000 Yeah, this is quite easy.

00:37:48.000 So none of these points are defeatists for Islam, nor do they change or attack what Muslims actually believe.

00:37:53.000 Notice this trauma that they have to create.

00:37:56.000 They have to think that these are parts of Allah.

00:37:59.000 Even some admitted you don't use this language.

00:38:01.000 So if we don't use that language, we don't describe it that way, we don't teach it that way, why is your opinion of how you read it in a very Christian way, I would say?

00:38:10.000 It's very natural for you to create different persons for God, That's the very definition of schizophrenia.

00:38:15.000 Let's get something straight here.

00:38:17.000 Jay is incorrect.

00:38:18.000 He made the statement, well, if it's still there in the Bible for Mark 13, 32, that Jesus does not know the day or the hour, how does that mean that the scribes changed it?

00:38:28.000 Yes, the scribes actually changed the meaning of the term, and what the academics have gone and done is translate And they've tried to fix and adjust what divorce means, because it occurs twice in the Bible.

00:38:40.000 And in the two places where Jesus has no knowledge of the day or the hour, the scribes tried to amend it.

00:38:46.000 There is no textual critic alive today who will not testify to that.

00:38:50.000 So I put it back to Jay.

00:38:51.000 Let's look at the manuscripts.

00:38:53.000 Sam says that your manuscripts are from the 4th century, and Verbatim, he says, that they're a problem because the further they go back, the more that they disagree.

00:39:03.000 And this refers to Codex Naiticus, Vaticanus, Alexandrinus, Ephraimuris scriptus, etc.

00:39:09.000 He says that it's a problem.

00:39:11.000 So Jay, please address the problem. 0.97

00:39:13.000 Please answer how God can be ignorant.

00:39:15.000 Please answer how God can not know things.

00:39:18.000 That is a God who is fundamentally agile.

00:39:21.000 Lastly, on this point of Allah having paths.

00:39:24.000 Muslims do not believe that.

00:39:25.000 Muslims do not say as well that when the Day of Judgment comes and things testify, paths testify, that these mean that they are the mind of Allah.

00:39:34.000 No one says that.

00:39:35.000 Daniel?

00:39:37.000 Yes, there's a lot to say here.

00:39:39.000 They keep saying that I'm Salafi this and Salafi that.

00:39:42.000 Me and Ijaz are on the same page on all of these issues.

00:39:45.000 You don't have to be a particular school of Islamic thought to defend Tawheed.

00:39:50.000 So you keep projecting this onto us because you have no way to respond to our argument.

00:39:55.000 And it's interesting that you're bringing up sects because...

00:39:59.000 Jay here has claimed that Catholics are modalists, that they're heretics, and that basically they are deviant.

00:40:05.000 So what does Jay have to say about Catholics? 0.99

00:40:07.000 He thinks that you're a deviant and a heretic, Sam, and maybe that you're going to hell. 0.97

00:40:12.000 So did you clarify that with Jay before he even agreed to this debate? 0.96

00:40:16.000 Second of all, for Sam, look at what Luke 1940 says.

00:40:20.000 I tell you, he replied, if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.

00:40:24.000 Stones will cry out according to the New Testament. 0.98

00:40:26.000 Do the stones have minds?

00:40:28.000 Isaiah 55, 12.

00:40:32.000 Does that mean that the hills and the trees have minds?

00:40:41.000 Sam, explain that.

00:40:42.000 Or how about Psalm 98, 8.

00:40:45.000 Let the rivers clap their hands.

00:40:47.000 Let the mountains sing together for joy.

00:40:49.000 Does that mean that the rivers have hands and they're clapping for joy?

00:40:52.000 Do they have minds? 0.64

00:40:54.000 Sam, please explain all of those verses.

00:40:56.000 You want to have that kind of understanding of mountains, rivers, and whatever, and you'll say that these are not minds.

00:41:04.000 But the problem with the Trinity is that Jesus has a separate mind than the Father.

00:41:08.000 The Father has a separate mind from Jesus.

00:41:11.000 They both have a separate mind from the Holy Spirit.

00:41:13.000 That means they're three separate entities and therefore three separate gods.

00:41:18.000 This is polytheism.

00:41:19.000 We don't have that problem in Islam.

00:41:21.000 The Quran doesn't have its own mind. 0.86

00:41:23.000 There's no one who ever has thought the Quran has its own mind that is separate from God.

00:41:29.000 I think?

00:41:47.000 Jay, do you want me to take it? 0.98

00:41:50.000 Muslims, you guys are done. 1.00

00:41:51.000 You've only got 142 left. 0.96

00:41:52.000 You've still got 142.

00:41:53.000 That concludes.

00:41:54.000 Yeah, so I just want to emphasize that they did not address the Trinity at all.

00:41:59.000 We addressed all of their complaints against the Quran, against monotheism, against Tawheed.

00:42:04.000 They haven't even started to defend the Trinity.

00:42:07.000 So this is a fail, a big fail.

00:42:09.000 And Sam is proof for Christians. 1.00

00:42:11.000 Okay, go ahead.

00:42:11.000 Could I point out as well, they didn't address the problem of Jesus' status as being begotten, being changed in the actual text.

00:42:20.000 You seem to be missing the point that Sam admitted was a problem.

00:42:24.000 Sam says that the manuscripts from the 4th century are a problem.

00:42:28.000 He says Codex Sinaiticus belongs to trash, because it's filled with errors and heresies.

00:42:34.000 Why does he defend that?

00:42:36.000 So this will do, this will do, this will do.

00:42:38.000 Since you guys still have some time on the clock, and it seems like this is, you guys kind of want to have a little bit of a dialogue here.

00:42:43.000 If you guys want, I'm going to have Team Christianity go right now. 1.00

00:42:46.000 I'm going to give them their full four minutes.

00:42:48.000 And then what we can do is, if you guys want, I can put another three or four minutes on the clock where we'll finish off this round with Tawid versus Trinity, where you guys have open dialogue with each other.

00:42:57.000 And I can put four or five minutes on the clock.

00:42:59.000 Then I can corner them, they can't run.

00:43:00.000 That'll be great.

00:43:01.000 So that's what I'll do.

00:43:02.000 So I'll give you four minutes on the clock.

00:43:04.000 Well, Team Islam, are you guys okay with that? 0.99

00:43:05.000 Do you guys want that?

00:43:06.000 Because it seems like you guys want open dialogue here.

00:43:09.000 Yeah, that's what we want.

00:43:10.000 You guys what you want?

00:43:10.000 Okay, cool.

00:43:11.000 So give the people what they want.

00:43:13.000 This is what you guys want.

00:43:14.000 Awesome.

00:43:15.000 So Team Christiana, we'll put four minutes on the clock for you guys.

00:43:17.000 And then after this, we'll do either three, between three to five minutes, whatever you guys decide, on just open dialogue between the four of you.

00:43:25.000 So I'll put four minutes on the clock here.

00:43:28.000 Whenever you guys are ready, go ahead and we'll start the clock.

00:43:31.000 Roger, you want to go first, right?

00:43:33.000 Yeah, so again, Jesus doesn't have a separate divine mind.

00:43:37.000 He shares the same divine mind as the Father, and when he assumed human nature, he assumed a human mind.

00:43:43.000 That's part of the fullness of human nature.

00:43:45.000 So we don't say that he's separate, just like the persons of the Trinity are distinct, but not separate.

00:43:51.000 Just like you believe, attributes are distinct.

00:43:53.000 Not separate.

00:43:54.000 Now, I know that you can't seem to follow the fact that we're not saying you believe the attributes actually have minds.

00:44:00.000 We're just pointing out that you have the same metaphysical problem, that you have a double standard for saying, I'm not liable to explain that.

00:44:09.000 You have to explain it.

00:44:10.000 And then when we bring that up, every one of your responses on that is a two-quote way.

00:44:14.000 Well, doesn't the Bible talk about body parts?

00:44:17.000 Yeah, but we don't have the same metaphysical problems as you because we don't have the same metaphysics.

00:44:22.000 But you don't seem to be able to follow that, so that's a two-quote way.

00:44:26.000 But other than that, the other thing I would just reply to is that Ijaz kept saying that all of the scholars in the world believe this.

00:44:32.000 There's not a single one that would disagree.

00:44:34.000 Has he read all of the scholars?

00:44:36.000 He asserted all of these things.

00:44:37.000 He says the scribes changed it, yet it's still there in the text.

00:44:41.000 So he's just asserting these things.

00:44:43.000 We don't know where this is coming from.

00:44:46.000 These are all assertions.

00:44:47.000 Go ahead, Sam.

00:44:48.000 Yeah, we will get into scripture authenticity in the second part, but he wants to change the topic because it's too hot for him.

00:44:53.000 And in the second part, he just proved Muhammad is a false prophet, and he is, but for other reasons. 0.98

00:44:58.000 But let me come and address.

00:44:59.000 Guys, you see how desperate Daniel is, and he's talking about we're evading the topic.

00:45:03.000 Read Luke 19, 38-40.

00:45:05.000 Let me show you the context as my time is fleeting.

00:45:07.000 There, Jesus is being praised by children, and the scholars are saying, rebuke them.

00:45:11.000 He goes, well, if they were silent, even the stones will cry out.

00:45:13.000 Anyone with any common sense, but I understand it's hard for them to read a text in its literary context.

00:45:20.000 He's using hyperbole.

00:45:22.000 That even if they don't praise me, creation will praise me.

00:45:25.000 That's exactly the context of the Psalms.

00:45:27.000 The psalmist, which is poetic literature, is personifying creation to show that all creation glorifies God, because creation is a testimony to the greatness and existence of God.

00:45:38.000 Nice try with that false analogy, but I want him now, when I engage you, when I ask you, so are you saying to me, That when the Hadith, not your Quran, says that the Surahs will intercede with Allah, that's not literal?

00:45:53.000 Are you saying to me, when the Quran will intercede with Allah, that's not literal?

00:45:57.000 I hope you say that. 0.95

00:45:58.000 And on top of that, what do you do with the Hadith, where it says, the trees greeted your prophet, stones greeted your prophet, and at the last day, a stone will cry out saying, hey, there's a Yahud behind me, come and kill him. 0.79

00:46:10.000 Are you going to allegorize those statements, Daniel Hakikat you?

00:46:13.000 I hope not, because I'm going to have a field day.

00:46:16.000 At your expense.

00:46:17.000 And what are you going to do with chapter 47, verse 22 of the Quran?

00:46:21.000 When you go to Bukhari, your prophet says there's a primordial rachem, womb, that yanked on your God's gonads. 1.00

00:46:30.000 And he said, stop, stop.

00:46:32.000 Are you going to allegorize that too?

00:46:34.000 The fact that your god has loins?

00:46:37.000 The fact that there is a womb yanking on his gonads, which is actually in Bukhari, cited even in Mekithir?

00:46:46.000 You're comparing apples and pineapples because the debate is over.

00:46:49.000 You can't defend. 0.99

00:46:50.000 You're irrational, incoherent Salafi babble. 1.00

00:46:53.000 And yes, I know you don't want to say the hand Is literal in the sense that it's a hand like my hand. 0.98

00:46:59.000 But I want to hear you from your own mouth, Daniel.

00:47:03.000 Are you telling me that Allah's hand is a metaphor for power?

00:47:06.000 I want to hear it.

00:47:07.000 Are you going to say, it's a hand.

00:47:10.000 We know it's a hand.

00:47:11.000 It's unlike anything.

00:47:13.000 We don't know how, but it's a hand.

00:47:15.000 Because your God is not the true God.

00:47:17.000 Your God is the figment of Muhammad's imagination. 1.00

00:47:20.000 How much time do I have?

00:47:21.000 13 seconds.

00:47:23.000 Now an interaction.

00:47:24.000 Get ready, boys.

00:47:25.000 I know you want to change the subject.

00:47:27.000 We're going to see how you're going to address these issues, so let's go.

00:47:29.000 All right.

00:47:30.000 Okay, so do you guys want three minutes, four minutes, or five minutes for open dialogue between the four of you?

00:47:37.000 Five minutes?

00:47:38.000 Okay.

00:47:40.000 Can we put five minutes on the clock, please, Bills?

00:47:43.000 So what we're going to do here, guys, is we're going to have it just open dialogue.

00:47:47.000 We're on the topic of Trinity versus Dawid, and then we're going to go into scripture next and authenticity for the next round.

00:47:53.000 So I will go ahead.

00:47:55.000 Who wants to kick it off first, I guess?

00:47:58.000 Who wants to do that? 0.99

00:47:59.000 Jay?

00:48:00.000 Me?

00:48:01.000 Or Team Islam?

00:48:02.000 I mean, the textual stuff is round two.

00:48:05.000 I don't know why he just spent the whole time.

00:48:06.000 Because he can't deal with the public.

00:48:08.000 The Bible holds your beliefs.

00:48:11.000 That's round two, dude.

00:48:14.000 Does the Bible affect your beliefs?

00:48:15.000 I want to know.

00:48:19.000 Hold on, guys.

00:48:19.000 Hold on.

00:48:21.000 What I'm going to do is I'll just have someone who wants to kick off the first question of this open dialogue and I'm going to start the timer.

00:48:26.000 Who wants to do it?

00:48:29.000 Nobody?

00:48:30.000 Yeah, okay.

00:48:30.000 Well, let me...

00:48:31.000 No, I'll do it.

00:48:31.000 You'll go.

00:48:32.000 Okay.

00:48:32.000 So, Sam, I'm going to turn the clock on once you go, and then this open dialogue between the four of you.

00:48:37.000 Guys, try please not to interrupt each other so they can hear you because it's Zoom, so they really won't be able to hear you if you guys interrupt each other.

00:48:41.000 So, go ahead, Sam.

00:48:43.000 I'll kick it off with you.

00:48:44.000 Go ahead.

00:48:44.000 Yeah.

00:48:44.000 Daniel, I want to hear from your own mouth.

00:48:47.000 The Yad of Allah, is it a metaphor for His power?

00:48:51.000 It can be a metaphor for his power.

00:48:52.000 It can be interpreted in many different ways.

00:48:55.000 It does not contradict Tawhid.

00:48:58.000 It does not contradict monotheism.

00:49:00.000 Yes, it does.

00:49:00.000 You can have an Ashari position and interpret it as a metaphor, or you can have a Salafi Athari position and interpret it differently.

00:49:07.000 Explain to me how it contradicts.

00:49:09.000 Can you explain to me?

00:49:12.000 I answered your question.

00:49:13.000 How does a hand, how does God having a hand, however it's interpreted, Contradict monotheism.

00:49:20.000 Can you explain that?

00:49:21.000 How does having a hand...

00:49:23.000 How does a hand contradict monotheism?

00:49:27.000 Explain it.

00:49:28.000 No, you asked me a question.

00:49:28.000 It's open dialogue.

00:49:29.000 You asked me a question and I answered you.

00:49:32.000 Now answer my question.

00:49:33.000 I answered your question.

00:49:35.000 I answered your question.

00:49:36.000 Now you answer my question.

00:49:38.000 What's your position?

00:49:40.000 Yeah, I've studied Salafi, Athari Islam, I've studied Ashari Islam.

00:49:44.000 You've studied it, but you won't say your position.

00:49:46.000 What are you?

00:49:47.000 I have studied all of them.

00:49:48.000 It's irrelevant to this debate.

00:49:50.000 Stick to the topic.

00:49:51.000 Stick to the topic.

00:49:56.000 What can you explain to me?

00:49:58.000 So, moderator, moderator, he doesn't let me answer the question.

00:50:01.000 He doesn't let me answer the question.

00:50:03.000 No, because you're doing a dodgeball.

00:50:05.000 You don't have to like my answer.

00:50:10.000 This is not interrogation.

00:50:11.000 This is not cross-examination.

00:50:13.000 You already asked me one question.

00:50:14.000 Let me ask you a question now.

00:50:17.000 Jay, is Catholicism modalism?

00:50:19.000 Is it a heresy?

00:50:21.000 Yes or no?

00:50:22.000 It can lead to that if they're consistent with it, yes.

00:50:26.000 No, no.

00:50:26.000 Is it or not?

00:50:28.000 Well, it's a false either or because not everybody who's wrong is necessarily a heretic.

00:50:33.000 They're not necessarily formal heretics.

00:50:34.000 You can have a material heresy.

00:50:36.000 So the Catholic position, is it a heresy or not?

00:50:41.000 It depends on the person whether they're hardened in that heresy.

00:50:43.000 No, no.

00:50:44.000 It doesn't depend on a person.

00:50:45.000 I mean, you're asking me my position.

00:50:48.000 I'm telling you my position.

00:50:50.000 You're not going to tell me what my position is.

00:50:52.000 Okay, let me help you.

00:50:53.000 He didn't like your answer, so don't let him filibuster her because he wants to get the time.

00:50:56.000 Now, let me ask you the question because I know that's what we're trying to do.

00:50:59.000 What do you think about that?

00:51:00.000 Jay just called your church a heretic.

00:51:02.000 I'm a heretic.

00:51:03.000 I deserve help.

00:51:04.000 Jay, pray for me and ask the intercession of the saints.

00:51:06.000 Now, let's come back to the cron.

00:51:07.000 So it's ironic that you're trying to pit me against Ijaz.

00:51:12.000 When you and him disbelieve in the same thing.

00:51:15.000 You don't believe in the same God.

00:51:16.000 You and Jay don't believe in the same God.

00:51:18.000 That's the point that we're trying to make.

00:51:20.000 Moderator, you're going to have to do a better job.

00:51:22.000 Here's the thing, it's open dialogue, and I'm trying to have it, you know, how about this?

00:51:27.000 Can you, let's say, I'm asking this question, Dan, please?

00:51:29.000 Go ahead.

00:51:29.000 And are you scared, Dan?

00:51:30.000 I'll take it easy.

00:51:31.000 All right.

00:51:32.000 Now, you're gone.

00:51:33.000 You're...

00:51:34.000 Can you let me make my comment, dude?

00:51:36.000 Well, make a reasonable comment rather than insults.

00:51:38.000 Your Quran.

00:51:39.000 You'll never get to me.

00:51:41.000 Here we go again.

00:51:42.000 All right, I'm going to add 30 seconds to the Quran.

00:51:43.000 Your Quran uncreated, right, Daniel? 1.00

00:51:45.000 Yes.

00:51:46.000 Okay, so the hadith that I cited, when it says, Surah Al-Baqarah, Surah Al-Rahan, will appear as flocks of birds interceding for those that recited them.

00:51:56.000 Do you take that metaphorically or do you take it actually?

00:51:59.000 This is a personification of the Quran, just like the Bible verses that I mentioned about rivers clapping their hands, their stones speaking.

00:52:08.000 In the Psalms, I'll read them again.

00:52:12.000 You're making the claim that if the Quran is personified, that means it has a separate mind.

00:52:19.000 See, now you're interrupting.

00:52:21.000 Can I answer the question?

00:52:23.000 Go ahead.

00:52:24.000 So I pointed out that just because there's personification, that doesn't imply that there's a separate mind.

00:52:30.000 And I cited verses of the Bible.

00:52:32.000 Your response was that, no, this is just personification in the Bible.

00:52:37.000 So personification is okay in the Bible.

00:52:39.000 That doesn't imply that stones have minds and that rivers have minds.

00:52:44.000 That's fine.

00:52:46.000 But if the Quran does it, or if Hadith does it, Your position is that you call them parts.

00:52:53.000 Can I address your position? 0.94

00:52:54.000 Are you going to rant and rape because you want to eat up time? 0.96

00:52:56.000 You interrupt me when I'm answering you. 0.99

00:52:59.000 You asked a question.

00:53:00.000 Shouldn't we be able to ask no?

00:53:02.000 You just asked a question.

00:53:03.000 We should be able to answer.

00:53:07.000 Daniel, I'm going to ask you a question.

00:53:10.000 I'm asking you a question, Sam.

00:53:12.000 It's quite simple.

00:53:14.000 Please answer the question.

00:53:16.000 You'll never get to me.

00:53:19.000 You're going to keep running.

00:53:20.000 Are we able to ask questions or not?

00:53:23.000 Go ahead.

00:53:25.000 Okay, let's add 30 seconds to the clock.

00:53:28.000 We're going to let Sam finish his point, and then we'll go ahead and let you ask your question.

00:53:32.000 Is he making points or asking questions?

00:53:33.000 Okay, so now Daniel, Daniel, stop attacking straw man, because in the psalm, you will not find where it says, and the moon will come and intercede for those that look to it.

00:53:46.000 And venerated it.

00:53:48.000 The hadith I cited is about the day of resurrection.

00:53:51.000 It's about intercession.

00:53:52.000 So I want to know, what do you mean by personification?

00:53:56.000 When in those hadiths, it's talking about the surahs interceding with Allah.

00:54:01.000 Will there be intercession?

00:54:02.000 Is that true?

00:54:03.000 Will people need intercession before Allah?

00:54:06.000 Is that true?

00:54:07.000 So what exactly do you mean by personification?

00:54:09.000 Because your appeal to the Psalms shows that you don't understand what a personification is.

00:54:16.000 Can I answer without interruption?

00:54:18.000 Go ahead, answer, answer.

00:54:19.000 We'll see.

00:54:19.000 Without interruption.

00:54:20.000 Can I answer?

00:54:22.000 Yeah, and I'll give you, Joss, some time as well, because he didn't get a chance.

00:54:25.000 So go ahead.

00:54:25.000 Yeah, sound didn't come to me as well.

00:54:27.000 Yeah, they're just dictating the question.

00:54:29.000 So I cited verse of the Quran in chapter 36 that even your hands, even your feet will intercede.

00:54:37.000 There are many things that will intercede on the day of judgment.

00:54:42.000 That doesn't mean that those things have minds.

00:54:44.000 Those things don't imply that those things are God, that those are God's mind.

00:54:50.000 That's the thing.

00:54:51.000 The point that we made against the Trinity is that Jesus has a separate mind, a human mind, and the Father has a separate mind.

00:54:58.000 Now, Jay says that the mind of Jesus is a fully human mind, but does that mean the Father has a fully human mind as well?

00:55:06.000 If not, those are two separate minds of God.

00:55:09.000 So those are two separate minds.

00:55:11.000 Minds, two separate entities, two separate beings.

00:55:14.000 That's not analogous to your hands interceding on your behalf on the day of judgment, or the Quran, or your feet, or anything else that will intercede on your behalf on the day of judgment.

00:55:27.000 Explain how Jesus can have a separate mind from the Father and they be the same mind.

00:55:36.000 So I didn't interrupt.

00:55:37.000 So who do you want to answer?

00:55:38.000 Because Ijaz wants to ask questions.

00:55:40.000 So the separation comes in the fact that he has a human mind that he assumed, but he retains the divine mind that he shares with the Father because he's a divine person.

00:55:48.000 He's not a human person.

00:55:49.000 This is an important distinction in Christian theology that we don't accept the Nestorian teaching that Jesus is a human person.

00:55:56.000 He's a divine subject that assumed a human mind, a human nature, a human will, a human energy.

00:56:02.000 So, it's a both-and and not an either-or, so your whole question is predicated on a false either-or.

00:56:08.000 So, you deny that the Father has a human mind.

00:56:11.000 So, real quick, that is time, guys.

00:56:12.000 Jesus has a mind that the Father doesn't have.

00:56:13.000 That is time, but did you guys want to ask Ejaz a question, or did Ejaz have a question for you guys?

00:56:18.000 They won't.

00:56:18.000 They won't ask.

00:56:19.000 Go ahead, Ejaz.

00:56:20.000 What's your question?

00:56:21.000 Simple question.

00:56:22.000 Why did the scribes omit for the end of Vulgate that Jesus is not a day or the hour, when it addresses him as the Son, speaking of the person, not speaking of natures?

00:56:32.000 Yeah.

00:56:32.000 Ask me that in the scriptural debates, because I'm going to use that argument.

00:56:36.000 This is theological.

00:56:38.000 I'm asking you theologically, is this son the person who saved me?

00:56:44.000 Is this son the person who saved me?

00:56:47.000 Can you answer the question or not?

00:56:48.000 Can you answer it?

00:56:50.000 Talk over him again.

00:56:51.000 One more time.

00:56:52.000 I asked the question, quite simple.

00:56:55.000 In Mark 1332, when it says this one, listen to my question.

00:57:00.000 I'll tell you what my question is.

00:57:02.000 You don't have to change my question for me.

00:57:05.000 Let me ask my question and answer it.

00:57:08.000 Listen to what I said.

00:57:10.000 I asked, and I asked the question.

00:57:12.000 He heard your question.

00:57:14.000 Just let him answer.

00:57:15.000 He heard your question.

00:57:16.000 You said about scribes changing the text, so that is referring to the veracity of the Scriptures.

00:57:22.000 But even if we go with your very imbalanced approach to textual criticism, they must have done a very poor job because they left intact the Father alone.

00:57:34.000 So even your argument buries you because whatever the scribes did, if they inserted the word Son or omitted it, Because there's a debate among textual critics.

00:57:42.000 That passage still has the Father alone, so they must have done a very poor job because they didn't remove the word alone, and they left Mark 13, 32 intact, because I know what you're referring to, Matthew 24, 36.

00:57:53.000 That wasn't my question.

00:57:55.000 Okay, can you ask me about textual criticism?

00:57:58.000 My question was not about textual criticism.

00:58:01.000 I asked you, does this son...

00:58:03.000 Listen one more time.

00:58:05.000 Listen one more time.

00:58:06.000 I'm asking you, describe me the change to omit or the son, and I'm asking you, why is it specific for the son to be omitted if the son is the same person who has the same knowledge as the father?

00:58:18.000 Just a simple question.

00:58:19.000 If the son has the same knowledge as the father, why does it specify his ignorance of it?

00:58:26.000 Take it.

00:58:27.000 You can't answer the question.

00:58:28.000 They can't answer it.

00:58:29.000 Actually, I didn't answer the question.

00:58:30.000 You didn't understand the question.

00:58:32.000 You think it's a textual criticism question.

00:58:35.000 Let me give Sam a chance to answer this.

00:58:38.000 Then we're going to move on to scripture because we have went on a little bit longer here.

00:58:41.000 Could I make a final point to Daniel?

00:58:42.000 One final point?

00:58:43.000 Yeah, go ahead, if you can answer their question as well, please.

00:58:45.000 All throughout this debate, he shows that he's a very poor debater because he's attacking strawmen.

00:58:49.000 Unlike the examples of your hands and feet, the surahs are supposed to be uncreated and eternal. 1.00

00:58:54.000 So you still live with the dilemma that the chapters of the Qur'an, uncreated, eternal, will be speaking with God.

00:59:01.000 So you have uncreated entities, unlike your hands and feet.

00:59:04.000 So I'm going to now agree with you.

00:59:05.000 Your Qur'an is a mindless entity.

00:59:08.000 Who will appear to Allah without a mind arguing with Allah. 0.96

00:59:11.000 So you're left with a mindless entity interacting with your God.

00:59:14.000 So either that means your God is speaking through different modes or you have a set of 114 uncreated eternal divine objects who are mindless and you have the audacity to attack the Trinity.

00:59:28.000 Can I answer his point?

00:59:31.000 What we'll do, guys, next time is I'm going to have a question and answer for each person when we do this open dialogue because I can see that this can easily spiral and we'll fix that on the next one.

00:59:40.000 Let's just move to Scripture because we're getting there anyway.

00:59:43.000 So we'll move on to the Scripture part.

00:59:46.000 So Team Islam, you guys are going to kick it off again. 1.00

00:59:49.000 Unless you want Team Christianity to kick it off on this one. 0.76

00:59:52.000 Yeah, let them go first.

00:59:54.000 Do you want to go first, Ijaz? 0.80

00:59:56.000 I would like Sam to hang himself so he can go first.

01:00:00.000 Are you guys okay? 0.96

01:00:02.000 We'll go first. 0.99

01:00:03.000 I'll use that or hang your religion by the grace of Jesus Christ and bury it. 1.00

01:00:06.000 But now, let's start time. 0.64

01:00:08.000 By the way, Jay, do you want me to take the entire five minutes?

01:00:10.000 So just for the audience knows, this is going to be round two now.

01:00:14.000 Same thing, guys.

01:00:15.000 Three rounds, four minutes each.

01:00:18.000 Now we're going to talk about scripture authenticity between the Quran and the Bible.

01:00:24.000 So I'll turn it over to you, Sam.

01:00:26.000 Go ahead.

01:00:27.000 All right.

01:00:27.000 Yeah, by the grace of Lord Jesus Christ, Muhammad's God and judge.

01:00:30.000 I'm now going to show the Muslims the dilemma they're in. 1.00

01:00:34.000 Because I'm not debating Abart Ehrman, who doesn't care about Muhammad. 0.64

01:00:37.000 I'm debating Muslims who supposedly take the position of Muhammad. 0.97

01:00:40.000 So I'm appealing to Muhammad because they believe in him.

01:00:43.000 I pray they repent and turn away from him.

01:00:45.000 Because he's under the feet of Jesus Christ.

01:00:46.000 But coming to that point, anytime Hijaz attacks the Bible, he shows that he's smarter than Muhammad, better than Muhammad, knows more than Muhammad. 0.98

01:00:55.000 Why?

01:00:55.000 Because the consistent teaching of the Quran and the sound narration, so we're going to get into this, is that Muhammad confirmed the very scriptures that the Jews and Christians had in their possession at his time.

01:01:05.000 And the Quran says that Jesus confirmed the very scriptures between his hands at his time.

01:01:09.000 Unless now Hijaz wants to come up with some new set of scriptures, The only scriptures that would have been in existence time of Jesus up to Muhammad are the very scriptures that have variations just like the Quran does. 0.94

01:01:21.000 Let me just go through a slew of verses for the sake of time.

01:01:24.000 Chapter 2 verses 40 to 44.

01:01:26.000 Chapter 2 verse 89.

01:01:28.000 Chapter 2 verse 91.

01:01:30.000 Chapter 2 verse 101.

01:01:32.000 Chapter 2 verse 113.

01:01:34.000 Chapter 2 verse 121.

01:01:35.000 Chapter 2 verse 136.

01:01:37.000 Chapter 3 verses 3 to 4.

01:01:39.000 Chapter 3 verse 50.

01:01:41.000 Chapter 3, I'm sorry, not chapter 3.

01:01:44.000 Chapter 4, verse 47, and then we go to chapter 5, and we read verses 43 to 48, 66 to 68, and on and on it goes.

01:01:52.000 And then the sound narration.

01:01:54.000 So, Ejaz, make my day. 1.00

01:01:56.000 Help me to hang you. 0.99

01:01:57.000 Attack the Bible for variations, because you show that you know more than Muhammad. 1.00

01:02:01.000 That means you expose him as a false prophet.

01:02:03.000 But if you believe in Muhammad, you have to accept the Bible, and he's still a false prophet, because Muhammad was an ummi. 0.98

01:02:08.000 He did not know that his Quran contradicts the Bible.

01:02:11.000 Now, The same arguments that they're going to level against scripture, I will use to bury their belief in scripture, because Ijaz is going to have to come clean and talk about the ahroof. 0.55

01:02:21.000 What are they exactly?

01:02:22.000 What are the seven ahroof?

01:02:24.000 Over 35 opinions given by scholars, and we know it cannot be dialectal, because I'm going to show from a hadith in Bukhari that Omar heard Hisham recite chapter 25 of the Quran so differently, he dragged him to Muhammad, and Muhammad said,

01:02:39.000 yes, I taught it to him this way.

01:02:41.000 And Umar recited.

01:02:42.000 I taught the chapter to you this way.

01:02:45.000 But they were both Quraysh and spoke the same dialect.

01:02:47.000 So it cannot be dialectal differences.

01:02:49.000 And then we're going to add to the problem the missing verses and surahs found in the codices of Abdullah ibn Masood, Ubay ibn Kab, two of the four men that Muhammad said learned the Quran from.

01:03:00.000 He didn't say Zayed ibn Tabith.

01:03:02.000 He said, learn the Quran from Abdullah ibn Masood, Ubay ibn Kab, and yet they contradicted each other and your Uthmanic Codex, Musaf, because there are missing verses and missing surahs, so much for the perfectly preserved Quran.

01:03:14.000 But then add to insult to injury.

01:03:17.000 Your Uthman decided to burn Copies of the Qur'an that were in conflict to the point that Muslims are about to come to blows.

01:03:24.000 You don't come to blows over minor differences.

01:03:28.000 And he had the Qur'an's burn, and yet Abdullah bin Masood refused to the point that your sources say, That Uthman instigated a mob reaction against Abdullah bin Masud, who got beat and his bones broken because he thought his knowledge of the Quran was superior to your Zayd ibn Thabit,

01:03:45.000 who was an Ansari.

01:03:49.000 Then we add insult to injury.

01:03:51.000 What do you do with the different Qiraat?

01:03:52.000 According to your Muslim sources, there were 25 Qiraat.

01:03:57.000 By the time Ibn Mujahid came, centuries later, 300 years later, after the death of your Prophet, he's the one who standardized seven. 0.96

01:04:05.000 By whose authority?

01:04:07.000 So my challenge to you is, show me anywhere in your Qur'an, or your authentic tradition, where your God sanctioned all these Qiraat, and authorized Ibn Mujahid to standardize seven Qiraat, and these Qiraat are not identical, and then I want you to explain to me what the Ahruf are,

01:04:24.000 and then we're going to go into the missing verses, and we're going to go into the missing sermon.

01:04:29.000 Okay, there you go.

01:04:30.000 So let's have fun.

01:04:31.000 Alright.

01:04:32.000 Okay, we will turn it over to Team Azlan for round one.

01:04:35.000 And this is authenticity of scripture.

01:04:38.000 Go ahead.

01:04:38.000 One sec, let me just reset my timer with it.

01:04:41.000 No worries.

01:04:42.000 There we go.

01:04:43.000 Stopwatch.

01:04:44.000 We'll start on our side once you start speaking.

01:04:47.000 Okay, sounds good.

01:04:49.000 Yeah, you can stop.

01:04:51.000 So, here's the thing.

01:04:52.000 Revelation comes with the expectation of validation.

01:04:56.000 Scriptural texts and doctrines are authentic if they can be traced back to the figures to whom they were revealed in the way that they were revealed.

01:05:04.000 Otherwise, they are inauthentic.

01:05:06.000 Christians believe that the New Testament can go back to Jesus Christ and his apostles.

01:05:10.000 However, Sam disagrees because Sam said in his live stream with Crisco that the New Testament comes after the time of Christ, probably the second century.

01:05:20.000 So I guess it's not really that early.

01:05:22.000 Good that he omitted the fifth century.

01:05:24.000 Well done, Sam.

01:05:25.000 To continue with this, the books of the Bible as we have them today, we can't authenticate them.

01:05:31.000 We can't trust their lineage back. 0.61

01:05:33.000 We call this thematics or genealogy.

01:05:36.000 You have different manuscripts at different times, and we're trying to understand how they were written, why they were written, and with whom.

01:05:43.000 The thing that we have to keep in mind is that the scribes who've written these things, and the authors, do not identify themselves as having been inspired whatsoever.

01:05:52.000 And we have very little knowledge as to where and when these things were written.

01:05:56.000 For example, if I were to give the most famous verse of the Bible, John 3.16, Academic scholars don't know if Jesus actually said those words.

01:06:05.000 They think it could be the author or a later scribe.

01:06:09.000 In fact, even the words of that very verse, the most famous, the most popular, has a difference in it.

01:06:15.000 They've changed it to say that Jesus is no longer begotten.

01:06:18.000 The thing is, if they can't get their most famous verse right, what else can they get wrong?

01:06:23.000 What about the Shema Yisrael?

01:06:25.000 When Moses, in the book of Deuteronomy, has to explain who God is, that differs with the Greek Septuagint, and it differs with what Jesus says in the New Testament in each Gospel.

01:06:37.000 So if Jesus can't get his basic beliefs right in the New Testament, Moses makes mistakes in the Old Testament, then these are scriptures I can't believe in, and these prophets seem to have done a very bad job, especially if one of them were meant to be Psalms God.

01:06:51.000 Let's continue here.

01:06:55.000 Let's consider Isaiah 40, verse 8.

01:06:58.000 It says that the Word of God will stand forever.

01:07:00.000 Jesus says something similar in Matthew 5, verse 18, that not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen will disappear from Scripture.

01:07:09.000 Unfortunately, this prophecy is false.

01:07:12.000 How do we know this?

01:07:13.000 They admit that no two manuscripts are the same, down to the letters and the strokes.

01:07:19.000 And I want you to notice here, Jay cannot identify for me which biblical tradition he holds to textually, and neither can Sam.

01:07:26.000 Sam says the only textual tradition he would accept if it's from a Trinitarian.

01:07:30.000 You don't know what the early Christians believed in the first century.

01:07:33.000 So how can you make that distinction and determination?

01:07:36.000 I would add one more thing here.

01:07:39.000 It's actually a list kept by the Jews, but it changes that they made to Scripture.

01:07:45.000 See, this isn't a Muslim invention.

01:07:47.000 Historically, there's a list called the changes by the scribes.

01:07:53.000 The scribes changed words in the Torah, and we find that in the Christian version of the Old Testament, that those changes are also present there.

01:08:03.000 So what we ask, do we know the fact that changes were made by scribes?

01:08:07.000 The Jews say yes, and the Christians have it in their Bible.

01:08:10.000 And these are not menial changes.

01:08:13.000 We continue here.

01:08:14.000 Christian scholars believe that the Bible could be reliable for two reasons.

01:08:18.000 One, that it's early enough in time to the time of Jesus, and two, the vast amount of manuscripts that they have.

01:08:25.000 The problem here, however, is if Psalm appeals to those scholars and their reasoning, then the same metrics, when used for the Qur'an, completely authenticate it.

01:08:35.000 We know exactly what the Qur'an is, we can recreate its prototype text, we have a stamina that we can develop for it, and we have the manuscripts from the lifetime of the Prophet.

01:08:44.000 I know he was solid.

01:08:45.000 Sorry.

01:08:46.000 Five?

01:08:47.000 No, no, no.

01:08:48.000 I was giving you the last ten seconds.

01:08:50.000 Oh, sorry.

01:08:51.000 That's the time right there.

01:08:53.000 Sorry.

01:08:54.000 No, that's fine.

01:08:55.000 Okay.

01:08:56.000 So that completes round one of topic two, which is authenticity of scripture.

01:09:02.000 We're going to do...

01:09:03.000 Go ahead, Mo.

01:09:04.000 We're going to turn it real quick.

01:09:05.000 Quick word from our sponsor, guys, that we're going to get right back into it.

01:09:07.000 Go ahead, Mo.

01:09:12.000 If you guys got to use the bathroom or whatever, go ahead and go real quick.

01:09:15.000 This episode...

01:09:16.000 You want me to take this forward?

01:09:17.000 What do you want me to do?

01:09:19.000 Yeah, you can.

01:09:19.000 I'll have maybe one or two points I can do briefly on that.

01:09:23.000 Okay.

01:09:23.000 Go ahead, Mo.

01:09:24.000 Read through it, and then, yeah, guys, we'll get right back into it after.

01:09:26.000 Go ahead, Mo.

01:09:27.000 This episode is sponsored by The Kid's Guide.

01:09:30.000 I have an important message about President Trump for all the parents out there, so please listen up.

01:09:37.000 President Trump said he wants to take back America and teach our kids to love our country.

01:09:44.000 That's why it's so important to make sure that our kids are learning the truth about President Trump, not the distorted lies that they're hearing in the mainstream media.

01:09:56.000 This good news is that Mike Huckabee's team put together the Kids Guide to President Trump.

01:10:03.000 And right now, you can get it for free with fun illustrations and easy-to-follow content.

01:10:10.000 This important guide teaches kids about all about President Trump's accomplishments during his first term.

01:10:16.000 And it helps kids understand his goals for 2024.

01:10:21.000 Mike Huckabee.

01:10:22.000 Wants to send you this free guide so that you can teach your kids the truth.

01:10:27.000 But please hurry, because supplies are limited.

01:10:31.000 To claim your free Kids Guide to President Trump right now, just visit KidstrumpGuide.com.

01:10:40.000 That is KidstrumpGuide.com.

01:10:44.000 And thank you, Mike Huckabee and the Kids Guide for sponsoring this episode.

01:10:49.000 Thank you so much, Mark.

01:10:50.000 Appreciate that.

01:10:50.000 We're back to the show.

01:10:52.000 Round two guys of Authenticity of the Scripture is going to be on Team Christianity. 0.96

01:10:58.000 Jay, I believe we're going to take this one, right?

01:11:01.000 Yeah, I just have one brief point, then I'll hand it back over to Sam.

01:11:05.000 Yeah, I think that Ejaz unknowingly sort of shot himself in the foot there, because the text that Sam listed presupposed that you could go and confirm the new revelation with the old.

01:11:20.000 So if I were to set up a hypothetical scenario of a sixth 7th century Jew or Christian hearing this message, hearing it for the first time, it's being revealed. 0.92

01:11:29.000 7th century, I should say.

01:11:30.000 And we're told that we can go check it against the prior revelation.

01:11:34.000 If the prior revelation is corrupt, how foolish then that we're checking it against something corrupted.

01:11:39.000 And in fact, the texts actually don't say that the prior revelation is corrupted.

01:11:43.000 That's a made-up thing that he's tacking on later on.

01:11:46.000 Go ahead, Sam.

01:11:48.000 Yeah, now, I want to congratulate Ijaz for now doing what I said, and he pretty much destroyed his religion, because I appeal to Muhammad, he appeal to biblical scholars. 1.00

01:11:57.000 Isn't it ironic?

01:11:58.000 A Christian who thinks Muhammad is a false prophet, an antichrist, is appealing to Muhammad, he's appealing to uninspired, So if these textual critics that you are selectively sliding and misquoting, 0.68

01:12:18.000 because you don't quote in context...

01:12:20.000 Alright, Muhammad is wrong. 1.00

01:12:22.000 Allah is wrong. 1.00

01:12:23.000 Because Muhammad had no problem with the variations in the manuscripts that existed amongst the Jews and Christians, unless you're saying he was that much of an Ummi, that much ignorant. 0.73

01:12:32.000 He didn't know that the Christians, their Old Testament would have variations with the Jewish scriptures because he confirmed them.

01:12:40.000 You'll find that in chapter 3, verses 3 to 4, chapter 5, verse 48, chapter 2, verses 40 to 44, but then to add insult and injury to your case, in chapter 3, verse 50, in chapter 5, verse 46, in chapter 61, verse 6, it says, Confirm the scriptures between his hands.

01:13:00.000 Well, did Allah not know that at the time of Jesus there were different textual traditions of the Old Testament that were not uniform, they had variations?

01:13:08.000 So is he deceiving Jesus?

01:13:10.000 Did your God deceive Jesus to confirm all the scriptures and not a word about the variations proving textual corruption?

01:13:16.000 So you know more than your God and your Prophet, why are you a Muslim? 0.99

01:13:20.000 But now, let's talk about the variant readings in your Quran that are significant That you don't find in the Uthmanic Codex.

01:13:27.000 For example, chapter 37, verse 12 of the Quran, when you read it today, it says, in fact, you are astonished by their denial while they ridicule you.

01:13:35.000 But Ibn Taymiyyah uses a variant to prove that your god gets shocked and amazed.

01:13:40.000 And here's how he quotes it.

01:13:42.000 In fact, I was astonished by their denial while they ridicule you.

01:13:46.000 So now, Ijaz.

01:13:48.000 Who's getting astonished?

01:13:49.000 Does your god get astonished?

01:13:51.000 Japtu?

01:13:52.000 Or you were astonished?

01:13:54.000 That's not the same, and it doesn't affect theology because it shows that your god is affected by your actions in time, which means he was caught by surprise.

01:14:03.000 So this is a meaningful variant.

01:14:05.000 But wait, we got another variant.

01:14:07.000 Chapter 33, verse 6.

01:14:08.000 According to the qiraat of Ubay ibn Kab, as well as Abdullah ibn Musud, and others, a host of them, Mujahid, Katada, Iqrama, Al-Hasan, There was an additional line in 33 verse 6 where it says,

01:14:25.000 And he is a father to you, and his wives are your mothers.

01:14:31.000 A father to you, and his wives are your mothers.

01:14:34.000 Where's that phrase?

01:14:35.000 A father to you.

01:14:36.000 And this is confirmed by Muhammad Assad, Abdullah Yusuf Ali, which is why Muhammad Assad includes the words a father to them, a father to you, in brackets.

01:14:45.000 That's significant, don't you think?

01:14:47.000 But where is it?

01:14:48.000 Now, how much time I have?

01:14:49.000 Because I got a lot of these examples.

01:14:51.000 15 seconds.

01:14:51.000 It shows Quran is corrupted.

01:14:53.000 How many?

01:14:53.000 12 seconds.

01:14:55.000 12 seconds.

01:14:55.000 Anyway, the point is, your own standard buries your Quran because there are no two Quranic manuscripts that are 100% identical.

01:15:03.000 Point to the two Quranic manuscripts that are 100% identical.

01:15:07.000 Let's see.

01:15:08.000 All right.

01:15:08.000 Turn it back to Team Islam.

01:15:10.000 Bottom of the second round.

01:15:13.000 Yep.

01:15:13.000 So let me just run through this quickly.

01:15:15.000 Wait, can I make some points first?

01:15:16.000 Sorry.

01:15:17.000 Yes, go.

01:15:17.000 Sure.

01:15:18.000 So what the audience should know, like all that gobbledygook that we just heard from the Christian side, when it comes to the textual preservation of the Quran, we have manuscripts, physical manuscripts that archaeologists have found that date,

01:15:33.000 are radiocarbon dated to the time of the Prophet, peace be upon him.

01:15:37.000 That match with what Muslims read, memorize, and recite today. 0.90

01:15:42.000 There is nothing like that when it comes to the Bible.

01:15:45.000 The earliest complete manuscript of the New Testament is from the fourth century, over 300 years after Jesus.

01:15:52.000 So the audience needs to remember this is a huge difference.

01:15:56.000 How can we tell that between the 300 years that Jesus was alive to the first manuscript, complete manuscript of the New Testament being found, so many of the teachings of Jesus haven't been distorted, haven't been changed, haven't been altered for the sake of political expedience or theological expedience,

01:16:12.000 whatever it may be.

01:16:13.000 So this is a huge difference between the Quran and the Bible.

01:16:16.000 Let's look at the apocryphal text.

01:16:18.000 Let's look at the fact that the Catholic Bible Old Testament has more books than the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible.

01:16:29.000 You have entire books.

01:16:31.000 We're not talking about like all Sam can bring up are like difference in pronoun usage, like yamaloon versus ta'amaloon in Arabic.

01:16:38.000 He doesn't even know Arabic.

01:16:39.000 That's like pronouns, like a difference in pronouns.

01:16:42.000 And he wants to make a big, oh, this is so significant.

01:16:45.000 Yeah, Muslims know about the qiraat.

01:16:46.000 Muslims memorize the different modes of recitation.

01:16:50.000 So what?

01:16:50.000 Even people, many people that I know have memorized them.

01:16:53.000 But how about the Catholic Bible having the book of Judith, having first and second Maccabees, having...

01:16:59.000 Additions to the book of Daniel.

01:17:01.000 Additions to the book of Esther.

01:17:03.000 The book of Susanna.

01:17:03.000 All of these additions that are not found in the Masoretic text.

01:17:07.000 Then you have another variation of the Old Testament with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

01:17:12.000 The Septuagint is the Catholic version.

01:17:15.000 You have all of these different manuscripts that are not small little differences.

01:17:20.000 There are entire books that are not found.

01:17:23.000 Now he wants to mention these surahs from Ubaib and Kaab.

01:17:27.000 One thing that What Muslims also know is that there is disagreement about whether certain verses are part of the Qur'an or not.

01:17:33.000 A very well-known disagreement is on the Bismillah.

01:17:37.000 Is that part of every surah of the Qur'an?

01:17:41.000 Is it only part of Surah Al-Fatiha?

01:17:43.000 There is a well-known disagreement among the schools of thought on this.

01:17:46.000 But that's not a completely different book that's not found in the Catholic version or the Orthodox version of the Bible.

01:17:55.000 It's just one word, Bismillah.

01:17:57.000 Or if you're looking at the different surahs that you're claiming are missing, any Muslim who reads these, I can even read you the translation of these surahs, they're just the dua, the prayer that is read in Qunut, in the Qunut prayer.

01:18:14.000 And there was a disagreement among some of the companions on whether this is part of the Quran.

01:18:19.000 Just like there's a disagreement on the Bismillah, on the Bismillah being part of every single verse or not.

01:18:25.000 This is not like some missing book that we don't know about.

01:18:28.000 Like this is what Muslims are reciting in prayer. 0.65

01:18:33.000 You're trying to make a big deal out of the Quranic variation to hide the fact that the text of the Bible is not preserved.

01:18:43.000 You can't find an authentic manuscript within 300 years of Jesus' life, let alone Moses.

01:18:48.000 You have all of these variations with the Old Testament.

01:18:51.000 The sects.

01:18:52.000 The Christian denominations do not agree on what the books of the Bible are.

01:18:57.000 What is the canonical books of the Bible?

01:18:59.000 You have all of these disagreements, but we should ignore all that.

01:19:03.000 And you want to bring up ya'malun versus ta'malun or bal ajibtu.

01:19:07.000 Like, this is a joke. 0.79

01:19:08.000 So your audience is ignorant of Arabic.

01:19:11.000 That's why this seems like a big revelation to them. 0.99

01:19:14.000 But for Muslims, it's laughable. 1.00

01:19:16.000 Go ahead. 0.96

01:19:17.000 Jake, can I take the four minutes?

01:19:19.000 Yeah, I just have two points here.

01:19:21.000 First of all, Daniel said the Septuagint is the Catholic version, which is not true.

01:19:26.000 That's the Orthodox Old Testament.

01:19:28.000 This really has nothing to do with the topic that we're discussing, because the Masoretic text was used by some of the Jews.

01:19:36.000 There were other groups of Jews that also used the Septuagint, so you seem to be totally unaware of any of that, which has nothing to do with which ones are the correct canon.

01:19:45.000 And Sam and I agree on that point, so Sam, I'll let you go.

01:19:48.000 Yeah, now, guys, notice the deceit in the smoke and mirrors.

01:19:51.000 You see the deception on part of Daniel?

01:19:53.000 He appealed to the Birmingham Quran. 0.99

01:19:55.000 And then he compared that to the later codices, which were more complete, and not to the papyri that appears from the second, third, fourth centuries.

01:20:03.000 Now, I want to challenge Daniel.

01:20:05.000 The Birmingham Quran that you say is from the time of Muhammad, how many surahs are contained?

01:20:10.000 You have all 114 surahs.

01:20:12.000 You have every verse of every surah in the Birmingham Quran.

01:20:15.000 See, again, this kind of deceit and dishonesty is unbecoming someone who claims to follow the God of truth.

01:20:21.000 Now, let's come back to how we try to brush aside the very readings.

01:20:25.000 Notice what I said about 3712.

01:20:27.000 One says, The only one has this God saying, I was astonished.

01:20:31.000 Oh, but that's no big deal.

01:20:33.000 That's something minor.

01:20:34.000 We can brush it aside.

01:20:35.000 Oh, really?

01:20:35.000 So are you acknowledging that the variant reading affects whether your God can be impacted by the actions of his creatures in time and space?

01:20:44.000 Because I was astonished and you were astonished is not the same unless you think Muhammad is Allah and what Muhammad feels, Allah feels. 0.73

01:20:51.000 Thirdly, notice again he compares apples and pineapples.

01:20:55.000 He's comparing a collection of different books, the Bible, written by different authors at different times, and comparing it with one Quran that supposedly came through one medium, and yet the companions of Muhammad cannot agree on the content of that one Quran.

01:21:11.000 You just buried yourself, Daniel.

01:21:13.000 Because that argument...

01:21:14.000 It works more forcefully against your Quran because you're comparing the work of one author and his companions can't figure out how many surahs, how many chapters, with a collection of books written by different people at different times, so there'll be some natural confusion whether this book really comes from an inspired author.

01:21:32.000 But we shouldn't find that problem with your Quran if there's only one medium and they all memorize the Quran perfectly, which is a lie from the pit of hell. 1.00

01:21:40.000 Moreover, Deal with the actual argument I brought up.

01:21:44.000 Abdullah ibn Masud is no joshmoh. 0.88

01:21:47.000 Ubay ibn Ka'b is no joshmoh. 1.00

01:21:49.000 They are two of the four men that your Prophet said learned the Quran from.

01:21:54.000 And I have here traditions, sahih, that said Abdullah ibn Masud recited The Quran in front of companions of Muhammad and they agreed that his recitation is fresh and the way it was revealed by Gabriel through Muhammad and yet your Uthmanic Quran doesn't agree to the point that your Uthman wanted to burn Abdullah ibn Masud's Quran.

01:22:14.000 Why?

01:22:15.000 If they are slight variations.

01:22:17.000 You don't go to war.

01:22:18.000 You don't accuse each other of corrupting the Quran over slight variations.

01:22:22.000 Stop with the lies.

01:22:23.000 Sahil Bukhari, Volume 6, 509, 510.

01:22:27.000 So again, we're going to ask you, How come the companions of Muhammad could not figure out how many chapters?

01:22:31.000 Abdullah bin Musud said only 111.

01:22:34.000 Ubay bin Qab said 116, which you tried to pass off as dua.

01:22:37.000 Are you saying Ubay bin Qab, the master of the Quranic reciters, did not know those two chapters were not surahs but prayers?

01:22:44.000 So you know more than Ubay?

01:22:45.000 Which means that your prophet made a pathetic judgment call because he mentioned him as one of the four, not you, Daniel Hakikachu.

01:22:53.000 Thank you for bearing your Quran. 0.91

01:22:55.000 And thank you for showing that Muhammad didn't know what he's talking about. 0.94

01:22:58.000 Muhammad confirmed the Bible, and you're saying, no, he's wrong.

01:23:00.000 Why are you a Muslim? 0.98

01:23:01.000 Repent! 0.97

01:23:02.000 Come to Jesus, Muhammad's God and judge. 1.00

01:23:04.000 I think my time is up.

01:23:06.000 Alright, now you've still got 15 seconds, but if that...

01:23:08.000 Oh yeah, that's what I'm saying.

01:23:09.000 Now stop with the paganism. 0.78

01:23:11.000 Come to Jesus, Muhammad's God and judge. 1.00

01:23:13.000 But thank you, Daniel.

01:23:14.000 You helped me show that you don't believe Muhammad.

01:23:16.000 You think Muhammad didn't know what he's talking about.

01:23:17.000 And I agree.

01:23:18.000 And the scholars knew more than Muhammad. 0.98

01:23:20.000 Stop being a Muslim. 1.00

01:23:21.000 All right. 0.99

01:23:22.000 And that is time.

01:23:24.000 So this is going to be the bottom of the third round.

01:23:27.000 Again, Authenticity of Scripture.

01:23:28.000 So I'm going to turn it to Team Islam to finish this up. 1.00

01:23:31.000 And then if you guys want, we will go ahead and have another open dialogue round if you guys want.

01:23:36.000 You can moderate it.

01:23:37.000 Good, yeah.

01:23:37.000 If not, Yeah, but what I'm going to have to do is for this open dialogue round, it's going to be question and answer.

01:23:41.000 So both parties will be able to ask a question to the other party.

01:23:43.000 Other party answers, and then they ask a question in return.

01:23:46.000 But you have to answer the question.

01:23:47.000 So that's how we'll have to do a question and answer for each.

01:23:49.000 Each party goes ahead and gets a question.

01:23:51.000 We'll start with Dan.

01:23:53.000 He could just ask a question to the team or to a particular person.

01:23:56.000 And then that person answers that question, and they can go ahead and ask another member of the team.

01:24:00.000 That way we keep it fair and put five minutes on the clock.

01:24:02.000 So Team Islam, are you guys ready?

01:24:05.000 But again, this is your guys' four minutes uninterrupted notes for the last round of Authenticity in Scripture.

01:24:11.000 Whenever you guys start speaking, we'll turn the clock on.

01:24:14.000 Go ahead.

01:24:16.000 This is the last round, or do they get a response after?

01:24:19.000 No, this is the last round, and then it's open dialogue after this.

01:24:22.000 Go ahead, Ijaz.

01:24:23.000 You're on mute.

01:24:28.000 You're still on mute.

01:24:31.000 Ijaz.

01:24:33.000 Yeah, so I'll just start on the timer.

01:24:36.000 So, I think that Sam just spent most of his time reading lists of verses that he does not understand.

01:24:41.000 There is consensus among the early Muslims as to what the Qur'an is.

01:24:45.000 And in fact, what he's appealing to vis-a-vis a codex from some of the companions, these are only found in a tradition that Arthur Jeffrey translated, I think, in the 19th or 20th century.

01:24:57.000 It does not refer to any actual physical manuscript That is actually known and dated and seen.

01:25:03.000 So there's a difference between a tradition being said in past, as opposed to a physical manuscript in existence, and the same people that transmit the hadith, the same people that transmit the Qur'an, they transmit it to Ibn Masud, they transmit it through the companions in at least three of the seven chains,

01:25:21.000 That are well known.

01:25:22.000 So there's no difference among the companions as the number of surahs in the Qur'an.

01:25:27.000 Please don't bring me something that Arthur Jeffrey randomly translated that no academic life accepts.

01:25:33.000 And by academic here, we refer to the Muslims who transmitted the Qur'an because they would count it letter by letter, line by line, psychometry. 0.60

01:25:41.000 So we actually have a way that we can mathematically know how many ayats were written in manuscripts.

01:25:46.000 It isn't done randomly.

01:25:48.000 So I'm not going to be like Sam and pretend to know what the Qur'an says.

01:25:52.000 There is consensus that the Muslims never took the Bible as scripture.

01:25:56.000 How do we know that?

01:25:57.000 Because Allah commands us to testify and believe in the scriptures that he has revealed.

01:26:02.000 And when we find this in the Qur'an, we find no companion saying that it is required as a Muslim to believe in the Bible as it exists today.

01:26:11.000 There is no such compulsion, whereas we are compulsed to believe that the revelations were given to prophets in the past.

01:26:19.000 When he mentions Jesus in the Qur'an, Jesus affirms the revelation revealed to him.

01:26:24.000 This is what Allah mentions in the Qur'an.

01:26:26.000 He has not testified to a book that came after him, which is what Sam believes in.

01:26:30.000 And let's be clear here.

01:26:31.000 We have Qaw 47, Sanah, Topkapi, Topkapi, Suwai Medina 1A. We have so many manuscripts of the Qur'an within the first hundred years of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, that complete the Qur'an.

01:26:44.000 This is complete in distinction to the Bible where you don't have anything even similar to it.

01:26:49.000 You have no second-century manuscripts, no third-century manuscripts.

01:26:53.000 How do we know this?

01:26:54.000 Elijah Hickson.

01:26:55.000 Textual critic, he gets manuscripts.

01:26:58.000 There's an entire institute at the University of Munster that determines the papyri and the manuscripts of the New Testament, and they don't determine that there's a single manuscript within the second century.

01:27:08.000 And when it comes to the third century, as Sam has admitted, he believes that Quedex Nidicus in the fourth century It's full of errors, heresies, and lies.

01:27:17.000 That's your most reliable manuscript.

01:27:19.000 If your most reliable physical is filled with lies, don't pretend to tell me what the Qur'an says because you simply don't know it.

01:27:26.000 And I'll end with this.

01:27:27.000 The God of the New Testament, you said...

01:27:30.000 I don't think he's intelligent, or how do I say this, understand scripture.

01:27:35.000 How could the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament forget his name?

01:27:39.000 In Exodus 3.14, in the Greek Septuagint, the name that he's supposed to give is Ho-on, meaning the being.

01:27:47.000 Jesus in the New Testament gives the wrong phrase, ego imi.

01:27:50.000 He misquotes his own sacred name that generation for generation must remain. 0.93

01:27:55.000 It's ridiculous.

01:27:56.000 Titus 3.9. 0.98

01:27:57.000 God has to tell you that don't debate about genealogies because they lead to foolish arguments.

01:28:02.000 Two of your Gospels use genealogies as a basis to determine the messianic place of Christ. 0.98

01:28:08.000 It's ridiculous.

01:28:09.000 I'm sorry.

01:28:10.000 Address the questions and the claims and the manuscripts.

01:28:12.000 Don't bring me random things that you don't understand.

01:28:17.000 20 seconds.

01:28:19.000 One of the things about the Quranic manuscript, it seems like Sam only knows about the Birmingham manuscript.

01:28:25.000 There are many manuscripts.

01:28:26.000 If you paid attention when Ijaz was speaking in the opening, he listed the different codices, the different manuscripts.

01:28:32.000 All of those together are the Quran that we read today.

01:28:37.000 It's not just contained to one manuscript.

01:28:39.000 Alright, so what I'll do is, so do you guys want to do the open dialogue or do you guys want to move on to the third one?

01:28:46.000 Yeah, if it doesn't go into like a free-for-all, we'll just have questions.

01:28:48.000 Okay, so this is how we're going to do it, guys.

01:28:50.000 Five minutes on the clock.

01:28:51.000 I will go ahead and kick it off with whoever wants to ask the first question.

01:28:55.000 Let's say, for example, who wants to ask, Dan?

01:28:57.000 Yeah.

01:28:58.000 Okay, so Dan, when you ask your question, you can direct it either to Sam or Jay.

01:29:02.000 Once they answer the question now, they get to go ahead and direct the question back to a member of it, whether it be you or to Ejaz.

01:29:09.000 And then you've got to answer the question, and then you get the ability to ask a counter question back after you answer it.

01:29:15.000 Okay, fair enough?

01:29:16.000 That way we're able to keep this thing moving, everyone's able to be involved and get their questions asked and answered, and we can still have an open dialogue here to some degree.

01:29:24.000 I'll turn it over to you, Dan.

01:29:25.000 We've got five minutes on the clock, guys.

01:29:26.000 Let's be strict on the time.

01:29:27.000 Go ahead, please.

01:29:28.000 Okay, can either of you explain to me how many Western scholars of the Bible believe that the Old Testament can be traced back to Moses versus how many believe that the Quran can be traced to the life of the Prophet Muhammad?

01:29:44.000 You want me to answer that, Jay?

01:29:46.000 Sure, go ahead.

01:29:47.000 Yeah, well, I have one better for you than Western scholars. 0.77

01:29:53.000 I have your prophet.

01:29:53.000 So I keep appealing to your prophet.

01:29:55.000 So if Western scholars are right, then join me in saying Muhammad is an antichrist, a false prophet. 0.97

01:30:00.000 I appeal to your prophet.

01:30:02.000 You appeal to Western scholars.

01:30:03.000 And it depends on which Western scholars you want to appeal to, because not all Western scholars believe the same thing and hold the same presuppositions.

01:30:11.000 But I can also appeal to Western scholars that don't think that your Quran, as you have it, is even from Uthman.

01:30:17.000 It's actually from...

01:30:19.000 Abdul Malik from the 8th century.

01:30:22.000 But I did you better.

01:30:23.000 I went to Muhammad. 1.00

01:30:24.000 Why do you have a problem with Muhammad?

01:30:25.000 Why are you ashamed of Muhammad?

01:30:26.000 He's your prophet, right?

01:30:27.000 Your prophet tells me that the scriptures that Jesus had, that Torah is the uncorrupt revelation of God, perfectly preserved, and Jesus confirmed it.

01:30:37.000 And since you believe the Torah was given to Moses, your prophet did it for me. 0.92

01:30:42.000 So if you give me 99% of what's in scholarship, Then either your Prophet is wrong, and I admit he is, and I agree he is, but for other reasons, right?

01:30:51.000 Or the scholars are wrong.

01:30:53.000 You can't have your cake and eat it too.

01:30:54.000 Why do you keep doing jihad against your Prophet?

01:30:58.000 You should be agreeing with him.

01:31:00.000 Yeah, this is a false dilemma because we have the physical manuscripts of the Quran.

01:31:05.000 Well, hold on, hold on.

01:31:06.000 So now Sam gets to answer that, ask a question back in return.

01:31:09.000 Let's put 20 seconds on the clock real quick.

01:31:12.000 Go ahead, Sam.

01:31:13.000 Ask your question and then they get to answer your question and respond to you.

01:31:16.000 Okay, now you guys have been strawmanning the arguments I've been presenting, so now I'm going to ask both of you.

01:31:23.000 Give me the date of the oldest extent Mus'haf that has all 114 chapters, the oldest copy that has 114 chapters, and point out to two Quranic manuscripts that are 100% identical.

01:31:38.000 Go ahead.

01:31:40.000 So we address the question by saying there is not one manuscript.

01:31:44.000 There are several that date to within the lifetime of the prophet, peace be upon him.

01:31:48.000 You can go to Ijaz's opening statement.

01:31:51.000 He lists them.

01:31:51.000 You didn't pay attention to what he said, so you're asking the same question over and over again.

01:31:55.000 The answer to how many Western scholars think that the Pentateuch or the Old Testament goes back to Moses is zero.

01:32:01.000 Zero Western scholars.

01:32:03.000 How many Western scholars, scholars of the Bible, think that the New Testament goes to the time of Jesus.

01:32:09.000 Zero.

01:32:10.000 Zero Western scholars.

01:32:11.000 How many academics of Quranic studies, who are non-Muslim, by the way, they don't necessarily even like Islam, believe that the Quran can be dated, radiocarbon dated, scientifically, to the time of the Prophet?

01:32:23.000 That is the academic consensus.

01:32:25.000 And you can read about that in books like The Quran, A Historical Critical Introduction by Nikolai Sinai.

01:32:35.000 These are non-Muslim, many of them, and they believe that the Quran, not just one manuscript, but multiple manuscripts that are aligned and aligned with what we as Muslims read and recite today of the Quran, is dated.

01:32:50.000 Scientifically, to the time of the prophet, peace be upon him.

01:32:53.000 You can't say that about the Old Testament going back to Moses.

01:32:56.000 You can't say that about the New Testament going back to Jesus.

01:32:59.000 The earliest full manuscript of the New Testament only goes to the fourth century, over 300 years after Jesus lived.

01:33:08.000 Why don't you address that?

01:33:10.000 Sam says that that manuscript belongs in the trash.

01:33:15.000 Sam says this.

01:33:16.000 Can I ask you a question?

01:33:21.000 Pause the clock real quick.

01:33:23.000 Pause the clock real fast.

01:33:25.000 Dan answered that question.

01:33:27.000 I want to ask you a question, Monter.

01:33:29.000 I'm asking you.

01:33:30.000 He wanted to answer the question he asked me.

01:33:33.000 When I asked him the question, he then answered my answer to his question, do I have a right not to refute his lies?

01:33:40.000 You can wait till we ask a question and then refute the lies.

01:33:43.000 Okay, I'm just saying because he didn't stay on topic.

01:33:45.000 He didn't answer my question.

01:33:46.000 Neither did you.

01:33:47.000 You haven't stayed on topic the whole debate.

01:33:49.000 Okay, so this is what I'll do.

01:33:51.000 Let me go ahead and we'll let Ejaz ask the question because they did answer the question just now.

01:33:56.000 And then you can go and then it'll probably go to you to answer and then you can go ahead and address what you had before.

01:34:01.000 Hey, let me know if you want to say something too, brother.

01:34:03.000 I don't want to hug up.

01:34:03.000 Okay, so my question is to Jay Dayo.

01:34:06.000 When Sam Shumun, let me just quote this so I don't get it wrong.

01:34:10.000 When Sam Shimon says, and he agrees with this statement, the Sinaiticus document is full of errors and heretical statements, scribbles, and hopefully someday in the near future should be discarded to the trash can.

01:34:24.000 Is he aligning with your beliefs or not?

01:34:28.000 Well, out of your whole...

01:34:29.000 Give me the article where I said that.

01:34:29.000 Jay, I just want to ask him.

01:34:30.000 Give me the link to the article where I said those exact words.

01:34:32.000 Give me the link.

01:34:33.000 It's on my Twitter.

01:34:34.000 It's on my Twitter right now.

01:34:35.000 Give me the link where I said those exact words.

01:34:36.000 It's on my Twitter.

01:34:37.000 You can go to it.

01:34:38.000 Okay.

01:34:40.000 That's it.

01:34:40.000 And I could actually quote from you, from Crisco, that the New Testament comes in the second century, not even the first.

01:34:49.000 Go to my Twitter.

01:34:49.000 So the whole of this argument is presupposing that something has to be immediately recorded at the time of the event, and you're just using your own positions We don't believe that.

01:35:02.000 We believe in the ability of oral tradition to transmit just as well as something written.

01:35:07.000 So you have an artificial standard that you expect of us that is not our standard.

01:35:12.000 We don't worship a book.

01:35:15.000 We're not a book-based religion like you are.

01:35:17.000 Sorry, that wasn't my question.

01:35:19.000 Myron, one second.

01:35:20.000 Your question is based on a faulty assumption.

01:35:22.000 No, I read, just to be clear, you didn't answer my question.

01:35:26.000 We don't follow one codice.

01:35:28.000 I don't have your suppositions.

01:35:29.000 So you're arguing.

01:35:31.000 I'm not a Protestant.

01:35:32.000 We're not Protestants.

01:35:33.000 This is the question I'm trying to respond to.

01:35:36.000 He didn't answer your question.

01:35:38.000 Myron, you didn't answer my question.

01:35:39.000 I would like to repeat my question.

01:35:39.000 You just don't like the answer that it's based on a Protestant.

01:35:42.000 I hope our God professed.

01:35:43.000 Do you agree with Sam that it belongs in the trash?

01:35:46.000 It doesn't matter which textual tradition.

01:35:48.000 It won't matter which textual tradition.

01:35:50.000 It doesn't belong in the trash, as he said.

01:35:52.000 It doesn't matter.

01:35:53.000 It doesn't matter if the Bible belongs in the trash?

01:35:56.000 No, that's Codex Sinaiticus.

01:35:59.000 The Codex Sinaiticus is not what the tradition hinges on.

01:36:02.000 That's what your argument hinges on.

01:36:12.000 Okay, so I'm gonna let Sam go ahead and come in because there were some allegations made about something he said or whatever it may be.

01:36:19.000 And he did answer your question, Jez.

01:36:21.000 I know that you don't like to answer, but he did answer it.

01:36:26.000 And now we'll go ahead and go to what Sam said on those comments.

01:36:31.000 Notice, notice neither of them answered my specific question.

01:36:34.000 He says that Hijaz rattled off some manuscripts, Topaki, Tashkent, whatever it is.

01:36:40.000 That wasn't my question.

01:36:41.000 Let me try it again, but you can't answer.

01:36:43.000 Guys, remember, they failed miserably.

01:36:45.000 I said...

01:36:46.000 Point to the earliest Musab codex that has all 114 surahs of the Quran with all the verses that they accept today in their 1924 Cairo edition.

01:36:59.000 They couldn't do that.

01:37:00.000 Then I asked, show me any two Quranic manuscripts that are identical 100%.

01:37:06.000 You didn't answer the question, Daniel.

01:37:08.000 Neither did your friend. 0.96

01:37:09.000 And again, if Western scholars are right, your prophet is a fraud.

01:37:13.000 And you're wrong.

01:37:15.000 There are many Western scholars.

01:37:16.000 You may not like them because they're conservative.

01:37:18.000 They do believe that Moses wrote the Torah, and they believe there's enough evidence for it, not only because Jesus confirmed it, but if Western scholars are right, I don't know what you guys don't get.

01:37:28.000 You just prove Muhammad is a false prophet, antichrist, because he doesn't agree with Western scholars.

01:37:32.000 He agrees with me.

01:37:33.000 And here I am defending your false prophet. 0.99

01:37:35.000 Glory to Jesus.

01:37:37.000 Okay, Ajaz, did you have something else that you wanted to, and then we'll finish off with that.

01:37:40.000 I just want to make sure everybody got their question off that they wanted to get off.

01:37:45.000 Yeah, I mean, he gave us a question about the prophet, peace be upon him, confirming the Torah, and we didn't address that question, so I can address it right now.

01:37:56.000 During the four minutes, you never adjust, you want to adjust it now?

01:37:58.000 Then I need a response.

01:38:01.000 Well, it's on the Q&A session.

01:38:03.000 Okay.

01:38:03.000 So let me respond to that.

01:38:05.000 I'll have your response to this one, then we'll go to Bible versus Quran for the last topic.

01:38:10.000 That's fine.

01:38:11.000 First of all, the Quran says that the Torah and the Injil, the scripture of the past, has been distorted.

01:38:20.000 They change it with their hands.

01:38:22.000 This is something that we read in the Quran.

01:38:25.000 So that's point number one.

01:38:27.000 Point number two is that he doesn't understand the difference between Aam versus Khas in Arabic.

01:38:35.000 Aam means general.

01:38:36.000 General statement versus Khas, a specific statement.

01:38:40.000 So if I point to a book and I say this is a reliable book...

01:38:44.000 Or this book confirms what I'm saying.

01:38:47.000 I don't necessarily mean that every single line of that book I agree with or every single line of that book is true.

01:38:54.000 I'm making an aam statement, a general statement that the book is true.

01:39:00.000 Sam can only have an uncharitable reading or an uncharitable interpretation of the Prophet's words in that hadith if we assume that that hadith is authentic.

01:39:09.000 So there is a difference of opinion on the authenticity of that hadith and he knows it.

01:39:13.000 Second of all, or the third point actually, What Torah is the Prophet or Torah is the Prophet ﷺ referring to?

01:39:21.000 Is he referring to the Masoretic text?

01:39:23.000 Is he referring to the Dead Sea Scrolls?

01:39:25.000 Is he referring to the Septuagint?

01:39:27.000 Like, which version of the Old Testament is he referring to?

01:39:30.000 And why do you incorrectly assume that the Old Testament that you have, your particular sect or denomination has, is the same thing that the Prophet, peace be upon him, is referring to?

01:39:40.000 Like, this is a very flawed logic that you have Sam, to take this hadith and think that the Prophet, peace be upon him, is confirming the book that you have in your hand today.

01:39:50.000 By the way, there are all these different variations.

01:39:52.000 And the fourth point is that if Muslims believed that the Bible was uncorrupted because of this hadith, why didn't they canonize the Bible in the way that the Christians canonized the Old Testament?

01:40:04.000 Christians canonized the Old Testament.

01:40:06.000 Muslims never did that because they never saw the Bible as fully reliable. 0.99

01:40:11.000 They never saw the Old Testament as fully reliable.

01:40:13.000 And the actual academic evidence shows that the Bible is not reliable because there's all these different variations and they change the differences between the Dead Sea Scroll and the Masoretic text and the Septuagint.

01:40:23.000 These are major theological differences because of changes in wording in the original manuscripts.

01:40:29.000 Why don't you deal with that?

01:40:31.000 Now, I have the same time to respond to his lies and bluster.

01:40:34.000 Okay, and then I'll have you respond, and then we'll end it and go to...

01:40:39.000 Let me go through, Jake, because I want to destroy his life and blessings.

01:40:41.000 We'll go ahead.

01:40:42.000 All right, number one.

01:40:43.000 Chapter 2, verses 78-79 shows, again, what you've been doing to the Bible, you're doing to your own Quran, and you fall under the condemnation of 378. 0.59

01:40:50.000 You not only have the audacity to twist the scriptures, you have the audacity to twist the Quran. 0.96

01:40:56.000 Anyone, I'm challenging here, let's do a debate on 275-79, your proof text.

01:41:02.000 Let's debate it.

01:41:03.000 Go read the context.

01:41:05.000 I've done an extensive study and the Muslim commentators is talking about a particular group identified as Jews who wrote the book with their own hands.

01:41:14.000 It doesn't say all Jews everywhere, let alone mention the Christians. 0.79

01:41:18.000 You just butchered the Quran like you've been butchering the Bible, but I come back to butcher you. 1.00

01:41:23.000 That's number one.

01:41:24.000 Number two, You said that the Hadith, where Muhammad confirmed the Torah, that there are differences of opinion.

01:41:30.000 Well, you probably didn't hear my recent responses to your friend, Jake.

01:41:35.000 Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah, which I have quoted, and if you want to read Arabic, because you boast about reading Arabic, I'll let you read the Arabic and parse it.

01:41:43.000 Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah said, a group of scholars believe the Torah is uncorrupt.

01:41:49.000 One of the evidences they gave is the hadith of Abu Dawood.

01:41:53.000 They quoted it.

01:41:55.000 They didn't question its authenticity.

01:41:56.000 And even Al-Albani said it's Hassan.

01:41:59.000 But put Albani aside.

01:42:00.000 Ibn Qayyim al-Joziyah, for those of you who don't know, he's the disciple of Shaykh al-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah, his granddaddy, when it comes to Salafi anthropomorphism.

01:42:09.000 And he says, these scholars quoted this hadith.

01:42:11.000 I guess they didn't know about the science of hadith classification.

01:42:14.000 Thank God Allah sent you to correct them. 0.99

01:42:17.000 Because they said that when Muhammad saw Their Torah, he put it on the cushion. 0.52

01:42:21.000 He goes, I believe in you and him who revealed you.

01:42:24.000 And then the scholars say he would not have said it if he thought the Torah was corrupted.

01:42:28.000 And among the people that Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziah lists as saying the Torah and the Gospel are incorruptible are al-Bukhari and Razi, which you probably don't care much about Razi, but Imam al-Bukhari, the one who collected the most authentic nations according to you,

01:42:45.000 the Hadith.

01:42:46.000 Now, my time's up?

01:42:47.000 No, no, 30 seconds.

01:42:48.000 You got 25 seconds.

01:42:49.000 Okay, the final thing is, if variant readings invalidate the Bible, it buries your Quran because you have thousands of variant readings, but then you explain the way as Qiraat.

01:42:57.000 But who authorized the Qiraat?

01:42:59.000 Show me one verse from your Allah that said that Mujahid would come and standardize seven readings of the Quran. 0.98

01:43:05.000 You make it up as you go along, the gig is up, game over for your religion. 0.99

01:43:09.000 Could I answer?

01:43:10.000 My son, could I answer this?

01:43:12.000 Answer and then we'll close on this topic.

01:43:15.000 Alhamdulillah, we don't have to make up anything because we actually have the genealogical trees of the manuscripts of the Qur'an.

01:43:21.000 The stama of the Qur'an. 0.92

01:43:22.000 And they're so exhaustive, there is not a single textual critic of the Qur'an that would say that we can't identify the Qur'an that was at the time of Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.

01:43:33.000 That they would say that we don't know what it is.

01:43:35.000 This is in...

01:43:36.000 Contradiction to what you said just now, that they don't know what it is.

01:43:40.000 And secondly, when it comes to the Torah, the Prophet, peace be upon him, never authenticated your Torah, never authenticated the Torah that you believe in today.

01:43:48.000 There's no one, it's multiple.

01:43:50.000 The Prophet, peace be upon him, authenticated a judgment from that Torah, which is about Rajam. 0.63

01:43:55.000 So read the Hadith in context.

01:43:57.000 And lastly, there is no disagreement about the scholars on the tradition of the Qur'an, what it includes 114 surahs, no distinction, nothing!

01:44:08.000 This is a difference to you and your scholars who leave books, Who leave chapters?

01:44:13.000 Who leave the words of Jesus out and change them?

01:44:16.000 They're not the same.

01:44:18.000 So while you try to focus on a false Islamic dilemma, a literal false dilemma, you don't answer the question of how the Bible could be authentic and reliable. 0.58

01:44:26.000 And I'm shocked that as a Christian, you allowed Jay to say that it's fine, it's okay if Codex Sinaiticus is being thrown into the trash. 0.59

01:44:34.000 I mean, as a Muslim, I have more respect for the Bible than Jay and Sam do put together, but it's ridiculous that he allowed that statement to go unchallenged. 0.78

01:44:42.000 Jay, why would you do that? 0.98

01:44:43.000 Throw the Bible, not under the bus, but in the trash. 0.60

01:44:46.000 I'm shocked at that. 0.99

01:44:47.000 Well, you're just too silly to think that the Bible is reducible to one textual tradition. 1.00

01:44:51.000 That's your whole argument is predicated on a stupid argument. 1.00

01:44:54.000 I didn't say that. 1.00

01:44:55.000 What you just said.

01:44:56.000 By the way, I've got other things I want to talk about.

01:45:00.000 So we've got multiple scholars, by the way, that both of you said, I'm replying to him.

01:45:06.000 You said that there are no modern scholars that believe in the veracity of the text, the Old and New Testament.

01:45:12.000 I've got three here for you.

01:45:13.000 Lightheart, FF Bruce, Jay Young.

01:45:17.000 They're all well-known textuals.

01:45:19.000 What's the text they affirm?

01:45:20.000 Which text?

01:45:21.000 That's it.

01:45:22.000 Which variants?

01:45:24.000 Which variants of the Hebrew Bible?

01:45:27.000 We don't.

01:45:27.000 It doesn't matter.

01:45:28.000 You don't even know.

01:45:29.000 You don't even know.

01:45:30.000 Why don't you open the book and read from it?

01:45:33.000 Read the book.

01:45:34.000 Read the book, Jay.

01:45:35.000 The argument is predicated under being a single sexual tradition, and that's not our position.

01:45:40.000 That is not my thing.

01:45:41.000 You from the book, what text?

01:45:43.000 What text?

01:45:45.000 We're going to move on now.

01:45:46.000 You can't identify.

01:45:48.000 Just give us a textual tradition.

01:45:50.000 Give us a textual tradition.

01:45:51.000 We're going to move on to topic three.

01:45:55.000 You can't.

01:45:57.000 Because they don't exist.

01:45:58.000 Because we don't follow a single text of tradition.

01:46:00.000 You understand?

01:46:00.000 I could tell you about this.

01:46:03.000 Guys, guys, guys, guys, guys.

01:46:07.000 The Orthodox, let me give you an example.

01:46:09.000 The Orthodox Study Bible.

01:46:10.000 Guys, guys, guys.

01:46:11.000 Alright, I'm meeting everybody.

01:46:13.000 Okay.

01:46:14.000 I knew that this was going to go crazy.

01:46:15.000 Anytime we open up the dialogue, it's going to go crazy.

01:46:17.000 You guys are not going to agree on this with the text and the scripture.

01:46:20.000 But are you allowing insults?

01:46:23.000 Yeah, but here's the thing.

01:46:24.000 He's getting frustrated because he answered your question and you made some personal attacks about throwing things in the trash or whatever, so obviously he's going to respond that way.

01:46:32.000 I read his quote.

01:46:33.000 Stop whining, you guys.

01:46:34.000 How's that an attack to be the quote?

01:46:36.000 Let's just move on to the third topic, guys.

01:46:43.000 Alright, so the third topic here, guys, is going to be morality.

01:46:48.000 Bible vs. 0.99

01:46:48.000 Quran on human rights, which you guys can go ahead and talk about this a bit, because I see that there's some personal differences. 0.99

01:46:55.000 Who wants to take this one first, Team Christianity or Team Islam? 1.00

01:46:59.000 They can go first.

01:47:01.000 Team Islam wants to go first on this one? 0.99

01:47:03.000 Okay.

01:47:03.000 No, no, they can go first.

01:47:04.000 Oh, Team Christianity. 0.99

01:47:06.000 You guys okay with going first?

01:47:08.000 Jay?

01:47:10.000 Yeah, I would say that if we think about this idea, the transition from the previous topic to the next topic, this idea that...

01:47:18.000 Okay, let's put four minutes on a clock real quick.

01:47:19.000 Sorry, sorry, real quick, Jay.

01:47:20.000 We're going to put four minutes on a clock so that you can go so that we don't...

01:47:24.000 Five minutes.

01:47:25.000 He gets five minutes, right?

01:47:27.000 Not four.

01:47:28.000 No, it's four because now we're on the topic three.

01:47:31.000 It's per round.

01:47:31.000 Yeah, so the opening statement, right?

01:47:33.000 Yeah, the openings are five, aren't they?

01:47:34.000 No, it's opening statement from the very beginning, and then once we get into the debate rounds, it's four.

01:47:38.000 If you guys want, if this is a topic that you guys want to expand on more, we can go ahead and give you guys five minutes.

01:47:42.000 But we do have four minutes for all the rounds.

01:47:44.000 But if you guys want five minutes for this particular topic, that's fine.

01:47:48.000 That's fine.

01:47:48.000 Whatever's fine.

01:47:49.000 Just five minutes.

01:47:50.000 We need five minutes for our opening.

01:47:52.000 That's fine.

01:47:53.000 You know what?

01:47:53.000 For this whole round, this is the last one.

01:47:55.000 We'll go five minutes.

01:47:56.000 For each round, three times.

01:47:58.000 No problem.

01:48:00.000 So, Jay, I got five minutes on the clock for you.

01:48:02.000 Whenever you're ready, we'll turn the clock on.

01:48:19.000 And what was later revealed or given.

01:48:21.000 Now in the Old Testament, we have a pretty consistent pattern, not of wrath or of anything extreme, but rather Jesus confirms in many places the morality of the Old Testament.

01:48:31.000 For example, in Matthew 5, people think that the Beatitudes are contrary to the law.

01:48:36.000 In fact, Leviticus says that you have to love your neighbor.

01:48:39.000 Jesus says that you can't exact personal revenge, and that was actually part of the Old Testament law.

01:48:44.000 So for us, Christ's exposition of the Old Testament is a consistent, true exposition of what the Torah always meant.

01:48:51.000 Jesus isn't contradicting it.

01:48:52.000 In fact, he gave it.

01:48:53.000 He's the one that fulfills it.

01:48:55.000 When we get to the time of Islam, we have a totally different expectation. 0.99

01:49:00.000 For example, many of these ceremonial ideas that are borrowed from Judaism and Christianity actually have no meaning and no significance.

01:49:07.000 They're not clear as to why we do them.

01:49:10.000 It's just what Allah wills. 0.68

01:49:11.000 Well, in Christianity, there's a specific meaning for things like an altar, things like cleansing, baptism, et cetera, washings.

01:49:18.000 And when I debated Daniel, we talked about this issue of continuity, how God always had an altar, a temple, a priesthood.

01:49:25.000 Islam has none of that. 1.00

01:49:26.000 So there's no continuity there in terms of morality or in terms of the theology.

01:49:31.000 Islam has a totally different set of standards that are completely arbitrary. 1.00

01:49:35.000 Sam, I'll pass it over to you.

01:49:37.000 Alright, yes.

01:49:38.000 Now, remember why I had asked to do the previous debate before this one?

01:49:42.000 Guys, remember, they failed miserably to show that their prophet did not confirm the scriptures.

01:49:47.000 Any attack on the scriptures again proves that Muhammad is a false prophet antichrist.

01:49:50.000 He is, but for other reasons.

01:49:52.000 And Muhammad confirmed all the scriptures in circulation.

01:49:55.000 He didn't make any difference between...

01:49:58.000 The variations or the versions to him, they're all God's Word.

01:50:02.000 Now with that said, that means Muhammad's morality must live up to the biblical morality, otherwise he is a false prophet. 0.91

01:50:10.000 And so when we look at even the Torah, even though Jesus is a consummation, and we are told clearly in the Old Testament and in the teachings of Christ that God, in his love, condescended to the Israelites, And it allowed things he did not like.

01:50:25.000 For example, if you go to 1 Samuel 8, if you go to 1 Chronicles 22, verse 8, 1 Chronicles 28, verse 3, and on and on it goes, and then the words of our Lord, Matthew 19, the Lord allowed and tolerated things that he himself was not pleased with until Jesus came and perfected the revelation and took us to higher standard.

01:50:44.000 Muhammad devolves, and his ethics are even worse than that found in the Old Testament, and I can give you several examples. 1.00

01:50:50.000 In Deuteronomy 24, verse 1 of 4, The true God of Moses says that if I divorce a woman, she marries, and he divorces her, or he dies, I can't take her back.

01:51:00.000 It's an abomination.

01:51:01.000 What God says is an abomination, Muhammad Zallah says is. 0.91

01:51:05.000 The only way you can take your spouse back.

01:51:07.000 In chapter 2, verses 229 to 230 of the Quran, if Daniel...

01:51:13.000 He makes the mistake of irrevocably divorcing his wife.

01:51:16.000 She has to marry someone else. 1.00

01:51:18.000 He has to have sex with her. 0.99

01:51:19.000 And then if he divorces her, he can take her back, adding insult to injury. 0.98

01:51:23.000 So the God of Moses says Muhammad's God stands condemned. 0.90

01:51:26.000 Another aspect, Deuteronomy 21, 10 to 14, unlike what we find in the Quran and the Sunnah, where Daniel's God says, if you're out in jihad, you can take women captive, even married one.

01:51:36.000 You can then molest them.

01:51:39.000 Even though they won't call it rape, because by taking them captive, you have nullified their marriage, have sex with them, and sell them off, they're your property. 0.91

01:51:46.000 Whereas the God of Moses says in Deuteronomy 21, 10-14, if you find a captive woman, you make her your wife, she's not married, you give her a month to more and shave her head, and you give her the full status of a wife and his wife, and... 0.74

01:51:59.000 If you divorce her, she's free.

01:52:00.000 You don't sell her.

01:52:01.000 So even though the Old Testament is that ideal standard, even the Old Testament condemns the Quran and the Sunnah as being barbaric and draconian beneath even the standard of the Old Testament, which does not live up to the standard of Jesus Christ. 0.95

01:52:14.000 And any attack in the Bible, they again prove Muhammad is a fraud. 0.88

01:52:17.000 And I hope you attack the Bible because Muhammad is a fraud, but for other reasons. 1.00

01:52:20.000 Glory to Christ. 0.53

01:52:22.000 45 seconds to go.

01:52:23.000 All right, well, yeah, so keep that in mind.

01:52:26.000 As Jay said, the Old Testament is fulfilled in Christ.

01:52:29.000 Jesus perfects the Old Testament. 0.88

01:52:31.000 Muhammad perverts the Old Testament, let alone the New Testament, so that he doesn't even live up to the standard of the Old Testament, which is an ideal. 1.00

01:52:38.000 Jesus is the standard, and when you compare Muhammad to Jesus, he's beneath the feet of Christ. 0.99

01:52:44.000 You still got 25.

01:52:45.000 Still good?

01:52:46.000 Okay, so any attack, I'm warning you guys, keep attacking the Old Testament, make my day, because your prophet confirmed that Old Testament in his possession, make my day.

01:52:56.000 And to answer the question, why didn't canonize it?

01:52:58.000 Because your Quran says, the Torah is for the Jews, the Gospel is for the Christians, the Quran is for you, but all of you follow it, because in it is guidance and light.

01:53:06.000 It's very simple, your Quran refutes you, Daniel.

01:53:08.000 Do a better job studying your Quran.

01:53:11.000 Alright, five minutes on the clock.

01:53:12.000 The topic again is morality, Quran versus the Bible on human rights.

01:53:17.000 This is round one of topic three.

01:53:20.000 And this is going to be our opening statement.

01:53:22.000 We haven't done the opening.

01:53:24.000 Yeah, of course.

01:53:24.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:53:24.000 So five minutes on the clock.

01:53:26.000 Don't worry.

01:53:28.000 Should I start?

01:53:29.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:53:29.000 Five minutes for everybody on each round of this.

01:53:31.000 This is the last one.

01:53:34.000 Okay.

01:53:34.000 Christians often attack the morality of Islam.

01:53:37.000 They say Muhammad, peace be upon him, taught war and taught misogyny, but Jesus teaches love and peace.

01:53:43.000 They say Muhammad, peace be upon him, promoted child marriage, whereas Jesus believes women should only be married when they reach 18.

01:53:50.000 But this Christian perspective is contradicted by the Bible.

01:53:54.000 The Bible promotes far more war, killing, and misogyny than anything in the Quran or the life of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. 1.00

01:54:01.000 Let's go through a list.

01:54:03.000 The Bible says in Leviticus 20 to execute a woman who engages in adultery.

01:54:08.000 Many Christians will say, oh, this is the old covenant.

01:54:11.000 It's no longer applicable.

01:54:13.000 Fine, that may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that God...

01:54:18.000 commanded executing adulterers at one point in history and god according to the trinity is also jesus so jesus commanded the israelites to kill adulterers does that sound very peaceful later in leviticus jesus says homosexuals should be executed if a father sleeps with his daughter-in-law they should both be executed here's a brief list of sins that jesus requires you to be executed for according to the old testament I think?

01:55:07.000 A sorceress. 0.99

01:55:08.000 Jesus said, kill him. 1.00

01:55:09.000 A blasphemer. 1.00

01:55:10.000 Jesus says, kill him. 0.99

01:55:11.000 A brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend who entices you to worship other gods, as says in Deuteronomy 13. 0.99

01:55:17.000 Jesus says, stone them to death and have no pity on them.

01:55:21.000 So Jesus is pro-death penalty for a lot of things. 0.99

01:55:25.000 To be fair, Islam. 0.83

01:55:26.000 Also has the death penalty for adultery, sorcery, and blasphemy.

01:55:30.000 But if we're judging who is more pro-death penalty, Jesus or Muhammad, Jesus wins hands down, according to the Bible. 0.54

01:55:39.000 Jesus is also pro-genocide. 0.84

01:55:41.000 In Deuteronomy 20, Jesus commands Moses to attack the Canaanites and other peoples and, quote, leave nothing alive that breathes.

01:55:48.000 In Deuteronomy 2, Moses requested safe passage for the wandering Hebrew people from Sihon, king of Heshbon.

01:55:55.000 But the king refused.

01:55:56.000 Jesus then commands his followers to conquer and possess Sihon's lands. 0.96

01:56:00.000 As Moses says, quote, Now,

01:56:16.000 to be fair, Muhammad, peace be upon him, also commands war in some contexts.

01:56:20.000 But the difference is Muhammad, peace be upon him, doesn't command Muslims to kill women, children, and babies.

01:56:26.000 He says the opposite.

01:56:27.000 He says to spare women and children.

01:56:28.000 But Jesus, according to the Bible, is not so merciful.

01:56:32.000 Then we go to slavery.

01:56:33.000 The Old and New Testament both endorse slavery, including taking girls as slaves for potential brides.

01:56:39.000 Numbers 31 says...

01:56:41.000 Chapter 31 says, Moses said to them, have you let all the women live? 0.99

01:56:45.000 Now kill every male among the little ones and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. 1.00

01:56:51.000 But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. 0.99

01:56:56.000 Again, Islam also endorses slavery and concubinage, but the difference is that in the Bible, Jesus says you can sell your own lives. 0.71

01:57:09.000 We're good to go.

01:57:21.000 Finally, on the topic of age of marriage, nowhere in the Bible does Jesus specify a minimum age for marriage.

01:57:28.000 Jesus had no problem with child marriage, and if he did, he never told anyone, even though it was a common practice in his time in the Old Testament times.

01:57:36.000 Furthermore, many church authorities endorse child marriage.

01:57:40.000 For example, St.

01:57:41.000 Augustine himself.

01:57:42.000 We're good to go.

01:58:04.000 And in the canon law in Catholicism, this minimum age of marriage is 12.

01:58:08.000 I want the Christian audience to know that the Bible and the Catholic Church have fully endorsed marrying girls as young as 12, or even younger.

01:58:16.000 So if you want to attack Islam and the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and say that they endorse pedophilia, well, so does your Bible, and so does the Church, and so does Jesus.

01:58:25.000 Note that I'm not condemning the Bible or the church for this reason.

01:58:28.000 So this is not a two-quo-quay fallacy, as Jay is sure to say, but I'm just pointing out the lack of consistency among many Christians. 0.81

01:58:36.000 Thank you.

01:58:37.000 All right.

01:58:38.000 Okay, so what I'll do real quick...

01:58:39.000 I want a brief response.

01:58:40.000 Sorry, did you have time left?

01:58:43.000 Yeah, that's the rest of the time.

01:58:45.000 What I'll do is...

01:58:46.000 Okay, so...

01:58:47.000 Mo, Bills, can we have the chats ready?

01:58:49.000 I'm going to let them go another round, then I'll read the chats after this, because obviously I know that they want to really respond to this.

01:58:55.000 Yeah, pull the chats up on the side and we'll have it.

01:58:57.000 So don't worry.

01:58:57.000 I was going to read the chats, but I know that you guys really want to respond.

01:59:01.000 So I'm going to have...

01:59:02.000 Jay, you wanted to go first, right?

01:59:05.000 Okay.

01:59:06.000 We're going to put five minutes on the clock.

01:59:08.000 I'll read chats after they finish both rounds of this.

01:59:10.000 We're on round two of the Bible versus the Quran. 0.97

01:59:14.000 Five minutes on the clock.

01:59:15.000 Go ahead, Jay.

01:59:15.000 Take it away.

01:59:16.000 Yeah, so the first thing I would say that you'll notice the double standard again, because Daniel tried to argue quite a bit for continuity there.

01:59:23.000 But you'll notice that earlier we had heard the Bible was corrupted.

01:59:26.000 But now all of these verses from the Old Testament somehow match up to a kind of continuity with Islam.

01:59:31.000 Well, wait a minute, I thought all the Old Testament, Jesus, all this was corrupted.

01:59:35.000 It's only corrupted...

01:59:37.000 When it doesn't suit their purpose or their argumentation, that's a double standard.

01:59:41.000 Next, I would say that even in the Old Testament, the rabbinic tradition, Jews did not always act upon these penalties.

01:59:48.000 Many of these penalties that were listed were about ritual impurity.

01:59:51.000 Not all of them, but many of them were.

01:59:53.000 And ritual impurity does carry over into the New Testament when, in our view, what happens is that not so much the state, although Christian states have at times enacted some things like death penalty for the things that were listed, It's ritual impurity in terms of coming to the liturgy.

02:00:08.000 So in the Orthodox and in the Catholic Church, we both share this position.

02:00:11.000 You do confess your sins before you come to the Eucharist.

02:00:14.000 That's because if you have committed these sins, you are ritually, and in a sense morally, because the ritual refers to the moral, you're morally impure, and so that's the purpose of confession.

02:00:23.000 So many of these things do carry over, just not in the way that they assume, and I would say that that's a much better notion of continuity.

02:00:30.000 I'll let you go ahead, Sam.

02:00:32.000 Yeah, I want to thank Daniel for proving that Jesus is his God, Allah. 0.99

02:00:38.000 Why?

02:00:38.000 Because according to the Qur'an, in chapter 5, verse 20 to 26, it was his Allah that ordered Moses and the Israelites to enter Canaan and wipe it out, chapter 5, verse 20 to 26.

02:00:50.000 Also, it was his Allah that ordered Saul, which the Qur'an erroneously calls Talut, because he fought Jalut, And again, I want him to justify Talut as a form of Saul. 0.75

02:01:02.000 In chapter 2, verse 246 to 251, where it was his Allah, whom he said was Jesus, so he just assumed that Jesus is Allah, Muhammad's God and Judge.

02:01:10.000 In chapter 2, verse 246 to 251, who ordered Saul on these expeditions, and there's not a word of condemnation by his prophet, saying that what Saul did to the livestock and children, Was an abomination to Allah.

02:01:24.000 That means he's better than his God and his prophet. 1.00

02:01:26.000 And again, I want to thank Daniel for proving that Jesus is Allah, his God.

02:01:31.000 Because in Sahil Bukhari, volume 4, number 353.

02:01:35.000 Ask me to read it because I don't want to eat up my time.

02:01:37.000 There, in an authentic narration, his prophet refers to a prophet who went in an expedition jihad and the sun stood still and his prophet narrates the injunctions of Deuteronomy chapter 20.

02:01:51.000 And also alludes to Joshua 7-10.

02:01:54.000 So that means Jesus is Allah, his God, Muhammad's judge, because according to your prophet, your God sanctioned these marriages. 0.95

02:02:02.000 Not marriage, I'm sorry, these wars.

02:02:04.000 So that means you're better than your God.

02:02:06.000 Now, ironically, he quoted Exodus 21-7, but as he's been doing all night, all day and all night, he didn't quote the entire context.

02:02:14.000 Because if you read the context, the reason why she couldn't be Let out is because a woman that time can't be let go to be on her own. 0.82

02:02:22.000 She has to be under the protection of the master or her father.

02:02:26.000 But then the text says that she's to be married, not raped, like what Muhammad did in chapter 4 verse 24 in the Sunnah when they took married captives and raped them and sold them. 0.51

02:02:37.000 Exodus 21 7-11 says he's to marry her or her son marries her.

02:02:41.000 And if he cannot be fair with her, she has to be divorced and let go.

02:02:46.000 So Conveniently, he doesn't show that this context, again, condemns Muhammad and his morality, and ironically, he mentions about the age of marriage.

02:02:56.000 Well, in the Talmud, because Muhammad quotes the Talmud, and I'll show you where, even his prophet said that according to the Torah, he confused the Talmud to Torah, a woman has to be past the age of 12, And show signs of maturity. 0.85

02:03:11.000 And he called that injunction in the Talmud, the Torah.

02:03:14.000 But that means even by that standard, his prophet is condemned to hell.

02:03:18.000 Because at the age of 54, he slept with a nine-year-old minor and sanctioned pedophilia.

02:03:23.000 Because there is no limit or age.

02:03:27.000 In Islamic Sharia, according to his scholars, that would say a woman has to be yea high, or this age, in order for a man to mount her.

02:03:36.000 And in the same Talmud it says, you're not to give a girl who's mature enough for marriage to an old man! 0.87

02:03:43.000 And Muhammad was 54 years old.

02:03:45.000 You don't get any older than that.

02:03:47.000 He was old enough to be her great-granddaddy.

02:03:49.000 So I'm glad you're appealing to the Jewish-Christian sources, because these very sources say, your prophet is a false prophet, an antichrist, under the feet of Jesus. 0.82

02:03:57.000 How much time do I have?

02:03:58.000 20 seconds.

02:03:59.000 Mama mia! 0.99

02:04:01.000 Ironically, you mentioned it.

02:04:03.000 Let me show you where it says.

02:04:04.000 In the Talmud, right here, where it says that you cannot give...

02:04:10.000 A young girl mature enough for marriage, which is past the age of 12, to an old man.

02:04:14.000 Here, let me read.

02:04:15.000 This verse is referring to one who marries his daughter to an old man.

02:04:18.000 That's time.

02:04:19.000 Time's up.

02:04:20.000 That's time.

02:04:21.000 I know you want it to be up.

02:04:23.000 No, physically up.

02:04:25.000 Alright, so I'm just showing a picture of Mario here because he's a famous plumber and he's with his princess, so I think that has significance.

02:04:33.000 Plumber is for Sam.

02:04:35.000 Can I just ask you a question, Daniel?

02:04:38.000 Hold on.

02:04:40.000 You'll have a chance to ask him a question when we do the fire round, but I'm going to turn it back to Team Islam here. 1.00

02:04:48.000 We're going to give you guys five minutes.

02:04:49.000 Is that the final one?

02:04:50.000 No, we got one more round.

02:04:52.000 For five minutes that you guys got.

02:04:55.000 So this is going to be, Team Islam Now, it's going to be on you guys, five minutes.

02:05:00.000 Notice, Christian audience, that your champions here did not mention child marriage.

02:05:06.000 Are they dodging that issue?

02:05:08.000 Why didn't Jay or Sam mention child marriage? 0.98

02:05:11.000 Hmm, I thought that Islam promotes pedophilia. 1.00

02:05:14.000 You know why they didn't address child marriage? 0.97

02:05:17.000 Because they know that canon law in the Catholic Church...

02:05:21.000 And Thomas Aquinas endorse child marriage and marriage at age 12, 12 years old.

02:05:27.000 Is that pedophilia, Sam?

02:05:29.000 Why don't you answer that question?

02:05:30.000 How about you, Jay?

02:05:31.000 Do you want to condemn the church for endorsing pedophilia?

02:05:36.000 And then he makes a big deal about how, oh, the Old Testament, you take the captives for marriage!

02:05:52.000 It's not giving them an option.

02:05:58.000 So I'm not condemning.

02:06:00.000 Notice, get the logic right, Sam and Jay.

02:06:03.000 I'm not condemning the Bible for slavery.

02:06:06.000 I believe that Islam also endorses slavery. 1.00

02:06:08.000 Islam also endorses war, but we don't go as far as Jesus in commanding killing babies like he does in Deuteronomy and Numbers. 0.98

02:06:15.000 I don't condemn Christianity or the Bible or Catholicism for this minor marriage, marrying girls as young as 9, 10, 11. 0.89

02:06:23.000 I don't condemn that because I think that there's nothing wrong with that.

02:06:26.000 But I want your audience to know that you don't find anything wrong with that.

02:06:30.000 You don't find anything wrong with a 12-year-old getting married.

02:06:33.000 Because that's what the Catholic Church, that's their morality.

02:06:36.000 And that's what this section of the debate is about.

02:06:38.000 It's about morality.

02:06:40.000 So I'm giving it to you, Jez. 1.00

02:06:43.000 Yeah, I'm just interested in, Sam, just a quick question.

02:06:47.000 Why didn't you mention anything about abusing wives, beating wives? 0.94

02:06:51.000 I understand why you mentioned rape.

02:06:54.000 I mean, I can understand why you did that.

02:06:56.000 What is the God of the Bible?

02:06:58.000 Which, I mean, your uncle?

02:06:59.000 Which one?

02:07:00.000 So just to be clear here, Sam, can you let us know what does the Bible teach about violence against your wives and the limits at which you can humiliate them?

02:07:10.000 Let's keep in mind here that Jesus in Matthew 23 commands the disciples and Christians to do and believe as the Pharisees believe.

02:07:19.000 And if I'm not wrong, they really liked young girls, three years old on one day.

02:07:24.000 I mean, Jesus seemed okay with it, but are you okay with that?

02:07:27.000 Sam, are you okay with that side of Jesus?

02:07:30.000 Seems a little bit naughty for you, isn't it?

02:07:32.000 Yeah, we're pointing out plumbers because I think Sam has a lot of experience with plumbers.

02:07:37.000 He wants to insult...

02:07:38.000 Hey, don't interrupt our time, brother.

02:07:39.000 Don't interrupt our time.

02:07:42.000 Moderator, moderator.

02:07:44.000 We wanted to be courteous and not bring this stuff up, but when Sam gets down and dirty and starts insulting the Prophet Muhammad...

02:07:54.000 Then we have to respond in kind.

02:07:55.000 We have to insult Sam and point out his vile history and the kinds of filth that he puts on his channel.

02:08:02.000 So we're just playing fair. 0.96

02:08:04.000 You want it to go down and dirty and use filthy language, then we're going to bring up the fact that a plumber basically stole your wife. 0.99

02:08:10.000 And you had certain charges against you.

02:08:13.000 That's all.

02:08:15.000 No, our time is not up.

02:08:16.000 They've got two minutes.

02:08:17.000 They've got two minutes.

02:08:18.000 We have some time left.

02:08:19.000 So we want to hear you condemn child marriage.

02:08:23.000 To go back to what Jay said, I never said anything about continuity.

02:08:27.000 I never said that, oh, what we find in the Old Testament is continuous in terms of morality with the Quran. 0.74

02:08:33.000 I never claimed this.

02:08:34.000 You just pulled this out of your back pocket, Jay.

02:08:37.000 We were not talking about rituals.

02:08:38.000 We were talking about practices of war.

02:08:41.000 The thing is that the Bible says to genocide little babies, to leave nothing that breathes alive.

02:08:48.000 The Quran never says this.

02:08:50.000 Yes, the Quran commands war. 0.99

02:08:51.000 There is the story of Moses going to battle.

02:08:53.000 Yeah, that exists, but there's no genocide.

02:08:56.000 That is mentioned because the Quran is correcting the false narratives that are found in the Old Testament.

02:09:03.000 All the additions that we find in all the different variations of the Bible that we've discussed in the previous section.

02:09:09.000 So that's the difference.

02:09:11.000 And yes, please, everyone is waiting.

02:09:13.000 Stop dodging the issue.

02:09:14.000 Condemn child marriage. 0.98

02:09:16.000 Tell us that the Catholic Church is really a pedophilia organization over the centuries because canon law...

02:09:22.000 Not the Talmud.

02:09:23.000 We're not talking about the Talmud.

02:09:24.000 We're talking about canon law says that 12 years old is the age of marriage.

02:09:29.000 Acceptable age of marriage.

02:09:30.000 So condemn that.

02:09:31.000 Please, we're waiting.

02:09:32.000 Jay and Sam.

02:09:33.000 Go ahead, Ejaz.

02:09:35.000 Yeah, I mean, they won't condemn that because they accept it, historically at least.

02:09:40.000 Let's just be clear here.

02:09:42.000 We're not saying that this is hypocritical, but you're not consistent.

02:09:46.000 Who cares about rituals and priests?

02:09:48.000 When it comes down to the meat and the matter, you guys approve child marriage, Jesus approved it, the Pharisees approved it, and this is what you believe. 0.79

02:09:56.000 I really want Sam to speak on whether or not a person can abuse their wife, whether a person can take donation money, spend it incorrectly, maybe spend it on young girls.

02:10:07.000 Wouldn't be surprised to find you an Epstein's List, to be honest.

02:10:10.000 So I just really want Sam to ask and answer the question, do you accept, Sam, do you accept child marriage, yes or no, and based on what?

02:10:18.000 We would like to know.

02:10:20.000 Does Jesus condemn it?

02:10:21.000 Does Jake condemn it?

02:10:22.000 Who condemns it?

02:10:23.000 That's time.

02:10:25.000 Sorry, you can't interrupt.

02:10:26.000 Okay.

02:10:27.000 Five seconds.

02:10:28.000 Five seconds.

02:10:29.000 He took it back.

02:10:29.000 Five seconds.

02:10:30.000 Okay.

02:10:30.000 Let me just reclaim the five seconds.

02:10:32.000 Yeah.

02:10:32.000 But don't demand something from us that you yourself aren't consistent with.

02:10:37.000 Okay.

02:10:37.000 We're going to add 10 seconds to the clock for Team Christianity for that.

02:10:40.000 Okay.

02:10:41.000 I'm going to give you guys five minutes on the clock.

02:10:42.000 This is going to be the beginning of round three.

02:10:46.000 Okay?

02:10:47.000 So this is going to be the final round on Bible versus Quran. 0.91

02:10:53.000 Morality.

02:10:53.000 Human morality.

02:10:54.000 So I'll put five minutes on the clock.

02:10:56.000 What I'll do is...

02:10:58.000 I don't want to interrupt this.

02:10:59.000 So what we'll do is we'll read the chats after they complete this round.

02:11:03.000 And then before they do the fire round where they, you know, open dialogue, then we'll do the chats.

02:11:08.000 Sorry to you guys.

02:11:09.000 I don't want to interrupt it.

02:11:10.000 You know what I mean?

02:11:10.000 The flow and everything else like that.

02:11:12.000 My job here is to moderate, give you guys the best show.

02:11:14.000 Don't want to interrupt it with super chats right now.

02:11:16.000 I'll do it after we finish this and then we'll do the final thing.

02:11:19.000 So round 3, 5, 10 on the clock for Team Christianity. 0.95

02:11:21.000 I know, Sam, you got a lot to say, so go ahead.

02:11:24.000 Jay, do you want to say something real quick?

02:11:25.000 Yeah, briefly.

02:11:26.000 So I was referring to the topic that Daniel and I debated and the way he's using these texts here in this debate.

02:11:32.000 Both of those situations show that Daniel only uses the Old Testament when it suits his purposes, and he's not consistent with it.

02:11:39.000 In that debate, he argued that Islam has more continuity with the Old Testament because of, well, there's some loose similarities between imams and places where you go and pray in a mosque or whatever.

02:11:49.000 That has nothing to do with the continuity that the argument in that debate was about.

02:11:53.000 Here he's using it as another way to say, these are the texts in the Old Testament that are valid to teach this.

02:11:59.000 So my point is that he's arbitrary and he has a double standard, and that's an internal critique, which neither of them have never understood.

02:12:06.000 I've made this point in every debate we have.

02:12:08.000 They don't know what an internal critique is.

02:12:10.000 They think that it means that you hold to your position.

02:12:12.000 That's not what an internal critique is.

02:12:13.000 It's just showing that you have a double standard.

02:12:15.000 I'll let it go to you, Sam.

02:12:17.000 Yeah, now let me get back and answer the questions.

02:12:19.000 They think that I'm going to run like they've been running by the grace of Jesus Christ.

02:12:22.000 Now, as far as those accusations, let's assume those accusations are true.

02:12:27.000 All you're proving is that I'm a sinner unfaithful to the teachings of Christ, but I was acting like Muhammad because Muhammad did a lot of plumbing with a lot of women other than his own wives because when he sanctioned the rape of married women, raping them and selling them off as chattel, that's condemned by the The God of Moses in Deuteronomy 21, 0.72

02:12:45.000 10 to 14.

02:12:45.000 So, Lord forgive me for acting like Muhammad, because I know acting like Muhammad leads me to hell, so I may have mercy.

02:12:51.000 Now let's come back to the issue.

02:12:54.000 You kept saying that, will we condemn child marriage?

02:12:58.000 Absolutely.

02:12:59.000 And here, Ezekiel 16, verses 68, 1 Corinthians 7, chapter 7, verse 36, the Didache in chapter 2, as well as the Talmud.

02:13:09.000 The reason why they say 12, if you are in context, and I'm going to challenge Daniel, give me the full quotation of Thomas Aquinas, unedited, because you're like your prophet, you like to edit and quote out of context.

02:13:21.000 They're placing it at 12 because that's when they assume that a woman will reach puberty. 0.87

02:13:26.000 And even then they say she has to wait a little time beyond 12.

02:13:32.000 For example, here in the Talmud says, not only 12, but sometime after that when her breasts are formed.

02:13:38.000 Because they took that as indication that she's now pubescent and that she's now knowledgeable enough to choose marriage or reject marriage. 0.85

02:13:45.000 So even by their standards, you condemn Muhammad to hell.

02:13:48.000 Because according to that very standard, Muhammad mounted a nine-year-old. 0.87

02:13:54.000 He was 54.

02:13:56.000 So Christian and Jewish sources would condemn him as a pedophile who desired a nine-year-old, and he mounted her, and then your Quran in 65 verse 4 doesn't even have the age of 12 as the limit.

02:14:08.000 So yes, I condemn it, which is why I condemn your prophet. 1.00

02:14:11.000 And as far as violence? 0.97

02:14:12.000 Well, it's your Quran that says that you guys can beat your wives. 0.98

02:14:15.000 So if you want to accuse me of that, More power to you.

02:14:18.000 Lord Jesus, forgive me, I'm a sinner.

02:14:20.000 At one point, Sam Till, I want to add just to point out, I'm not Catholic, and as a side note, I don't care what Thomas Aquinas says, but irregardless of all that, it's not even true in Catholic canon law that that's the age.

02:14:33.000 It's 16 for a guy, and it's 14 for a woman, which again presupposes that puberty has already happened. 0.54

02:14:39.000 Now, how much time do we have?

02:14:41.000 Two minutes, 155.

02:14:42.000 Yeah, and now notice again, they just proved that Jesus is Allah, Muhammad's God, because their God, Allah, who is Jesus, he's the one who sanctioned what Moses did and Canaan, what Joshua did, and I gave them the sources. 0.83

02:14:54.000 Now notice what they did.

02:14:56.000 Oh yeah, it's just, you know, an instruction to go ahead and carry out these expeditions generally, but Where does it say that in the Quran?

02:15:03.000 And here's my challenge to Daniel and Ijaz.

02:15:05.000 Show me in your Quran the explicit condemnation, prohibition, explicit condemnation, prohibition of killing children.

02:15:14.000 Because I'll show you in your Quran, Where your own God destroyed women, children, cattle. 1.00

02:15:21.000 For example, in the flood of Moses.

02:15:23.000 I'm sorry, Noah.

02:15:24.000 Because the Quran does confuse two floods, one at the time of Moses and Noah.

02:15:28.000 And as well as Sodom and Gomorrah, where he pelted them with stones.

02:15:31.000 Can you show me where your God discriminated and said, Oh, okay. 0.71

02:15:34.000 Hey, stone.

02:15:35.000 That's a baby.

02:15:36.000 Avoid him.

02:15:37.000 That's cattle avoid him. 1.00

02:15:38.000 But that pagan right there, strike him in the head. 1.00

02:15:40.000 Show it to me. 0.99

02:15:41.000 And you're fully aware that your own hadiths mention...

02:15:45.000 Where your prophet allowed women and children to be killed indiscriminately.

02:15:50.000 That's even in your own hadith.

02:15:52.000 But again, like you've been doing with the Bible, you've been butchering your Quran and your Sunnah. 0.99

02:15:56.000 And I don't blame you because if I was a Muslim, I'd have to resort to these tactics because you can't defend a lie.

02:16:03.000 Muhammad is dead and Jesus is alive. 1.00

02:16:05.000 End of story.

02:16:05.000 30 seconds.

02:16:07.000 Alright, so that's it.

02:16:08.000 Anytime they attack the morality, they just prove Muhammad is a false prophet. 0.90

02:16:13.000 Their god Allah is a false god, and they are for other reasons. 1.00

02:16:16.000 Because your prophet confirms the Bible, my Bible doesn't confirm Muhammad. 0.96

02:16:20.000 And they keep forgetting Jesus is now the standard.

02:16:23.000 And even though the Old Testament is not the standard, even the laws of the Old Testament are better than your prophet. 0.97

02:16:28.000 And notice what he said about captives.

02:16:30.000 The reason why she's taken captive, there was a war, but that shows you the humanity of the God of Moses. 0.88

02:16:35.000 You don't take a captive woman and rape her like your prophet did. 0.99

02:16:39.000 All right.

02:16:40.000 So what we're going to do now is I'm going to read the chats real quick and then we're going to go ahead and do a...

02:16:46.000 What I'll do is I'll probably put 10 minutes on the clock since it's the last one where you guys can go back and forth with your discourse.

02:16:52.000 And we'll do the same thing.

02:16:54.000 Question, answer.

02:16:55.000 Question, answer.

02:16:56.000 We'll try to bop it around.

02:16:57.000 And guys, if you could please answer each other's questions, please.

02:17:01.000 So I'll read these chats real quick and then we'll get right back into it.

02:17:04.000 What do we got here, Bills? 0.93

02:17:07.000 Okay, DN Fry says, the guy in the top corner's opening statement was trash.

02:17:11.000 Water could be solid, liquid could be gas, but there are some things in different forms.

02:17:14.000 Father, Son, Holy Ghost, of course.

02:17:16.000 And just so you guys know, debaters, the chatter is going to be biased towards their religion, so it is what it is.

02:17:21.000 Silasort says, Sam, why would you say the words prove irrational in a debate about religion?

02:17:26.000 Why is the left hand such an issue?

02:17:28.000 Please mind etiquette when you're in a debate because pointless jab derailed the conversation.

02:17:32.000 Okay, that's from Silasort.

02:17:33.000 We got...

02:17:35.000 Mark Q. Myron, I know you're trying to be professional timing rounds, but people want to see bloodbaths, so you should add an extra last round where both parties just go at it.

02:17:42.000 We got that.

02:17:42.000 Don't worry.

02:17:43.000 We're already on that.

02:17:44.000 Mark Q. This Sam guy is unserious.

02:17:48.000 He goes and creates his own understanding of Islam, shows his integrity.

02:17:50.000 I bet you will find many contradictions.

02:17:52.000 If his understanding of Christianity is investigated.

02:17:54.000 Okay.

02:17:55.000 How come Islam was created at 635 and the Gospel of John was created 100 AD? John was an eyewitness. 0.92

02:18:01.000 He saw, lived, and eaten with Jesus.

02:18:03.000 Should I believe in a cave or a witness of Jesus Christ?

02:18:06.000 Okay.

02:18:06.000 Andrew Wilson in.

02:18:07.000 This is from Army Kelo.

02:18:10.000 We got Snow Valentin says, just asking, aren't we all going to hell under Islam and there's nothing we can do to correct it because of our sinful nature?

02:18:18.000 Okay.

02:18:19.000 Snow Valentin.

02:18:20.000 We got here.

02:18:21.000 Myra, thank you for bringing this great debate together.

02:18:23.000 Respect to all four men who are participating.

02:18:25.000 Can I recommend Christian Price to join the next debate?

02:18:28.000 Sam, can I ask to join if you approve?

02:18:29.000 Thanks again.

02:18:30.000 Yeah, Prince.

02:18:31.000 He means Prince.

02:18:32.000 Okay.

02:18:32.000 That's from Beansburner.

02:18:33.000 And guys, sorry my voice is like this.

02:18:34.000 I'm a little sick.

02:18:35.000 So that's why I've been like meeting myself and coughing on the side to try not to interrupt the debate.

02:18:39.000 Do the Muslims even know who Canaanites were? 0.81

02:18:41.000 They were an abomination, descendants of Nephrilin, fallen angels, demons, etc. 1.00

02:18:45.000 Okay. 1.00

02:18:46.000 Muslims struggle with grasping, nuanced concepts and have low cognitive flexibility. 1.00

02:18:51.000 That's from St. 0.97

02:18:51.000 Gruyper. 0.97

02:18:52.000 This is why Sam's in the kitchen always.

02:18:53.000 Man, stay cooking.

02:18:54.000 That's from Stone.

02:18:56.000 You guys got supported on both sides.

02:18:59.000 T3 Day Youngin says, this might be to a schizo, but Zerka and Sneko, big spiritual influencers. 0.87

02:19:04.000 One thing Zerka said that has me learning more, Christian, is why is Jesus the most mocked figure if he wasn't God?

02:19:10.000 Okay?

02:19:11.000 Hamza says, Okay?

02:19:31.000 And then the man, Matt, says, if you follow any religion to the T with fear or just blind faith, I'm sorry, but you are a slave and cannot think for yourself.

02:19:37.000 There is no separation between us and God.

02:19:39.000 We are all a part of God.

02:19:40.000 We all do what Jesus did, who was black, by the way, and his name was Yeshua.

02:19:44.000 Yeah, Yeshua.

02:19:46.000 Modern society has forced the masses to believe that we are all like peasants to some omnipresent, omnipotent being, which couldn't be farther from the truth.

02:19:54.000 Everyone here needs to study Neville Goddard's teachings.

02:19:58.000 Okay.

02:19:58.000 WFNF, thanks guys for making this happen.

02:20:00.000 Question for Sam and Jay.

02:20:01.000 If Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, were to come back, which will happen, what would happen to the Muslims who believe in him as a prophet but not as God? 0.97

02:20:08.000 Anyways, guys, we have much more in common than indifferences.

02:20:11.000 So he asked this question for Team Christianity, it says here.

02:20:15.000 If Jesus came back, what would happen to the Muslims who believe in him as a prophet versus as a God?

02:20:23.000 That's the question you want us to answer?

02:20:24.000 Jay, do you want to take it first or do you want me to take it?

02:20:26.000 Go ahead.

02:20:27.000 Yeah, when you say that the Muslims reject Jesus, well, you've got to take into consideration...

02:20:33.000 When you mean Muslims, not all Muslims know what they're rejecting. 0.90

02:20:36.000 Not all Muslims know the Islam.

02:20:38.000 Not all Muslims are educated. 1.00

02:20:41.000 The Lord Jesus is a God of infinite compassion and mercy.

02:20:44.000 He sees your situation.

02:20:47.000 He meets you where you're at.

02:20:49.000 And if to no fault of your own you didn't know the truth of the Gospel, He extends mercy.

02:20:53.000 So this is my belief.

02:20:54.000 Again, I'm speaking from my perspective.

02:20:56.000 Jay may have a different perspective.

02:20:58.000 So you can't just generalize all Muslims, because not all Muslims know Islam.

02:21:02.000 They don't even know what Christians believe, just like Christians may not know their faith, right? 1.00

02:21:07.000 Let alone what Muslims believe. 1.00

02:21:09.000 God is a God of infinite mercy, and I don't think the Muslims would disagree with me, because you take into consideration your circumstances, your knowledge, and your status and position in life.

02:21:18.000 That's my answer.

02:21:18.000 I don't know if Jay wants to add something to it.

02:21:24.000 Jay, what do you think?

02:21:26.000 What's your interest to that?

02:21:28.000 Me?

02:21:28.000 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:21:29.000 I pretty much agree.

02:21:32.000 I think Romans 2, Paul addresses this.

02:21:34.000 He says that those without law will be judged on the basis of moral law or the natural law that they have within them.

02:21:40.000 So, you know, we don't know people's destinies other than God tells us to tell them to repent.

02:21:46.000 And then ultimately, God is their merciful judge.

02:21:49.000 Alright.

02:21:50.000 Any more chats in there?

02:21:51.000 Are we...

02:21:52.000 Alright, I'm going to fly through these.

02:21:54.000 Okay.

02:21:54.000 Victor says, Wise man once said, You can't solve today's problems politically because men's problems are spiritual.

02:21:59.000 All agree.

02:22:00.000 Okay.

02:22:01.000 Salafis uphold... 1.00

02:22:02.000 This is from Gambler.

02:22:03.000 Salafis uphold God's transcendence and reject anthropomorphism.

02:22:08.000 They interpret Quranic descriptions like hand or face as symbolic of Allah's power, not literal human traits, ensuring that his attributes remain distinct from human characteristics.

02:22:18.000 Okay.

02:22:19.000 Aristotle online says Islamic Tawhid has been proven contradictory.

02:22:24.000 Islamic Tawhid has been proven contradictory, but the response from Team Islam is, our scholars don't think Tawhid is contradictory.

02:22:41.000 Okay.

02:22:47.000 Bukhari 6000 says Allah made mercy into 100 parts and that He sent down one part to the earth.

02:22:53.000 How does Allah's divine attribute have parts?

02:22:57.000 How did Allah's attribute which is divine and uncreated free from limitation enter into creation?

02:23:03.000 Okay David?

02:23:05.000 Respond to Dr.

02:23:06.000 Haytham Sidki, where he has shown that the Quran MSS exhibit, a stamina, due to discrepancies, Medin, the first four copies.

02:23:16.000 These were codified in today's Quran.

02:23:18.000 Also, Dr.

02:23:19.000 Eleanor Sellard, that the Sanna MSS was a separate accepted codex.

02:23:25.000 Okay.

02:23:26.000 And then Aristotle says, This level of hand-waving requires tight titanium wrists.

02:23:33.000 Okay.

02:23:34.000 Okay.

02:23:35.000 AC1 says, Okay.

02:23:44.000 And then David says, Okay.

02:23:52.000 And then David says, Why are you always, quote, mining Justin Martyr from Jehovah's Witness and ignoring the rest in the rebuttal?

02:24:00.000 Okay. 0.99

02:24:00.000 Line your balls off. 0.99

02:24:02.000 Okay. 0.99

02:24:02.000 Whose voice is that? 0.99

02:24:04.000 It's a random person.

02:24:06.000 No, it's a talk to speech.

02:24:09.000 I like his voice.

02:24:11.000 It says here, okay, so this is what Dr.

02:24:14.000 Majin, Van Putin and others have studied.

02:24:17.000 How can that be trusted?

02:24:19.000 So they're saying that today's Qur'an is not based on early Qur'anic manuscripts rather on the work of a man named Abu Amr al-Dani.

02:24:25.000 Is that true guys?

02:24:26.000 Or you guys want to answer that?

02:24:27.000 Yeah, that's not true.

02:24:29.000 Dr.

02:24:29.000 Moran is a friend and colleague.

02:24:30.000 This is ridiculous. 0.96

02:24:31.000 He doesn't accept that whatsoever.

02:24:33.000 In fact, he actually attests to the fact that the Qur'an is reliable and within the lifetime of the Prophet peace be upon him.

02:24:39.000 Okay.

02:24:40.000 Last few here.

02:24:41.000 I can book the top renowned Israelite official scholars and camp leaders for simulcast debates.

02:24:47.000 Learn the proper interpretation of our sacred text from the descendants of the biblical authors.

02:24:51.000 IG. Okay.

02:24:52.000 He puts IG. ALC says, Jesus said, Love your enemy, but Muhammad endorsed graping slaves and selling them for ransom. 0.85

02:24:58.000 Sahil Muslim 1438.

02:25:01.000 Google it.

02:25:01.000 In what world would anyone think these two prophets come from the same God?

02:25:05.000 Okay.

02:25:06.000 Okay.

02:25:08.000 Aristotle online says, okay.

02:25:10.000 Alright, we're caught up.

02:25:11.000 So, okay guys, I'm going to go ahead and put 10 minutes on the clock.

02:25:14.000 Is that okay with you guys?

02:25:15.000 Because I've noticed that we've won over 10 minutes.

02:25:17.000 This is what we're doing now at this final part, just to get an idea.

02:25:19.000 This is going to be a question-answer, open dialogue between you guys, and this is going to be on the morality of the Quran versus the Bible.

02:25:26.000 I'm putting 10 minutes on the clock because I've noticed that we've...

02:25:27.000 Before you do that, is this the last it?

02:25:29.000 This is it?

02:25:30.000 Yeah, this is the last one.

02:25:31.000 So this last 10 minutes?

02:25:33.000 This last 10 minutes right here.

02:25:34.000 So it's going to be a question-answer.

02:25:36.000 And guys, please try to answer each other's questions.

02:25:38.000 So the way it goes is, you ask your question, the answer, after the person that answers it dictates the next question and who it goes to.

02:25:43.000 Fair?

02:25:44.000 Oh yes, fine.

02:25:45.000 Awesome.

02:25:46.000 Who wants to kick it off first?

02:25:48.000 Jay Watson.

02:25:49.000 Okay, go ahead.

02:25:51.000 Well, I heard Sam condemn child marriage, and he asked me for a quote from Thomas Aquinas.

02:25:56.000 I can read the quote if you want, but he does say...

02:25:59.000 Huh?

02:26:00.000 You want me to read it?

02:26:01.000 The entirety, yes.

02:26:02.000 Okay, I'll read it, but my question for Jay, he can think about it in the meantime.

02:26:06.000 Sam condemned child marriage.

02:26:08.000 I wonder if Jay will also condemn child marriage despite the tradition, the church tradition.

02:26:13.000 Here's the quote.

02:26:15.000 Let me just bring it here.

02:26:19.000 I'll read the whole thing.

02:26:43.000 Now, for the most part, this age is 14 years old for males and 12 years old for women.

02:26:51.000 But since the ordinance of positive law are consequent upon what happens in the majority of cases, if anyone reached the required perfection before the aforesaid age, so that nature and reason are sufficiently developed to supply the lack of age,

02:27:07.000 the marriage is not annulled.

02:27:09.000 Wherefore, if the parties who marry before the age of puberty have marital intercourse before the aforesaid age of 12, their marriage is nonetheless perpetually indissoluble.

02:27:23.000 End quote.

02:27:24.000 So my question now to Jay is, does he condemn child marriage?

02:27:29.000 Okay.

02:27:29.000 I stopped the clock.

02:27:30.000 We can start the clock back up again because you were reading something lengthy and I didn't want time to get eaten by that.

02:27:34.000 Go ahead, Jay.

02:27:34.000 Sorry.

02:27:35.000 So there's ambiguity about, quote, child.

02:27:38.000 I'm not a Catholic, so again, I don't care what Thomas Aquinas says.

02:27:41.000 He's not part of my tradition.

02:27:43.000 And even Thomas Aquinas' positions on many things are not part of the overall Roman Catholic position.

02:27:48.000 Roman Catholic canon law in 1083 says, again, that the age is 16 for a guy, 14 for a girl.

02:27:55.000 Orthodox canon law is different.

02:27:57.000 In Greece, for example, the age of consent...

02:27:59.000 Question for Team Islam. 0.93

02:28:01.000 Is the Quran created or uncreated? 0.96

02:28:04.000 Answer without commuting shirk, violating tafid, or violating tanzi, or making the Quran unknowable.

02:28:11.000 If you think this question is irrelevant, you have no grounds to criticize the Trinity.

02:28:18.000 We'll address that after, the fact.

02:28:20.000 We'll put that back on the clock and continue on.

02:28:23.000 Sorry.

02:28:24.000 Yeah, so Orthodox canon law is, there's not a one-size-fits-all in the sense of being identical to, like, Roman Catholic ideas.

02:28:31.000 So, for example, in Greece, the parents can be involved, and it's under 18.

02:28:35.000 If the parents agree, it can be 15.

02:28:38.000 So we don't have a one-size-fits-all, but for us, adults, Or it's not a child marriage, because again, as Sam was pointing out, the assumption would be that they're past puberty.

02:28:51.000 All right.

02:28:51.000 Jay, now your question is to you.

02:28:54.000 Go ahead and toss it to anyone from the Team Islam. 0.98

02:28:59.000 In terms of morality, what is the purpose of the rituals and the various postures or cleansings that you might do in your religion if they come out of a tradition that has a specific purpose for them that now your religion divorces it from that tradition?

02:29:19.000 I'm curious what the purpose of those rituals are.

02:29:21.000 Is it just because you're told to do it?

02:29:24.000 Well, that's your assumption that it's coming from the Bible or the Christian tradition or Jewish tradition.

02:29:30.000 That's your assumption that we don't share.

02:29:33.000 The ritual purity, part of it is what God has commanded, and it's supposed to be cleanliness will bring you closer to God.

02:29:42.000 Cleanliness is from godliness.

02:29:44.000 This is a principle within Islam.

02:29:47.000 Ritual purity before prayer, like wudu, or making rosal after certain actions like intercourse.

02:29:56.000 You have to do a ritual wash.

02:29:58.000 These are commands of God, and it's understood that water has been created as something to purify.

02:30:05.000 But it's not something where...

02:30:07.000 Yeah, you'll find other prophets in the Bible talking about ritual purity.

02:30:13.000 We acknowledge that these religions were originally from God.

02:30:18.000 So you do find ritual purity in the Bible or in Christianity.

02:30:24.000 But that doesn't mean that Islam copied...

02:30:27.000 These traditions.

02:30:29.000 The source is the same.

02:30:30.000 It's coming from the same God.

02:30:33.000 So I don't see how this is some kind of interrogation of Islamic morality.

02:30:38.000 If it's from the same God, then it's continuity.

02:30:41.000 No, there's...

02:30:43.000 No, no.

02:30:43.000 How is that continuity?

02:30:44.000 How is that continuity?

02:30:45.000 It's from the same God.

02:30:46.000 You just said that.

02:30:46.000 Yeah, it's the same source.

02:30:48.000 Where did I say continuity?

02:30:49.000 Well, if the rituals came to our religion from the same God to yours, that's continuity.

02:30:54.000 No, God can change.

02:30:56.000 The same God is continuity.

02:30:57.000 God can have a ritual for a specific race, like in Judaism.

02:31:02.000 You can burn calves, you can burn certain livestock as a form of ritual practice.

02:31:09.000 That doesn't mean God has required that for Christians or Muslims.

02:31:13.000 It's still the same God, but there isn't continuity.

02:31:16.000 There's not a particular practice.

02:31:17.000 Yeah, there's not continuity.

02:31:19.000 Because I said that it's coming from the same source.

02:31:21.000 You're claiming that there's continuity.

02:31:23.000 But didn't you argue for continuity in our debate?

02:31:27.000 No, you didn't understand what I argued for in our debate.

02:31:29.000 Well, you argued for continuity.

02:31:31.000 You didn't understand that debate?

02:31:33.000 I don't know why you're bringing it up.

02:31:35.000 I don't know why you're bringing it up in this debate.

02:31:39.000 I'm living in your head rent-free.

02:31:41.000 I'm living in your head rent-free.

02:31:46.000 You're still debating like a previous debate.

02:31:48.000 You mean because 90% of the We're talking about child marriage. 0.50

02:31:52.000 We're talking about child marriage and you can't even give a condemnation.

02:31:56.000 Neither you or Sam can say Thomas Aquinas.

02:32:00.000 Neither you or Sam can say that Thomas Aquinas are pedophile.

02:32:04.000 I don't follow Thomas Aquinas.

02:32:06.000 You're bringing irrelevant.

02:32:07.000 Why can't you condemn him?

02:32:08.000 Why can't you condemn him?

02:32:10.000 Aquinas?

02:32:10.000 Yeah, why can't you?

02:32:11.000 I don't have a problem.

02:32:13.000 You say he's a pedophile.

02:32:15.000 Did you not hear me? 0.99

02:32:16.000 He's a pedophile then. 0.99

02:32:17.000 Can I correct that? 0.99

02:32:19.000 What pedophile? 0.98

02:32:19.000 Did he sleep with a girl like your prophet did? 0.98

02:32:21.000 He said it's fine, too.

02:32:22.000 He said it's fine for 12 years old or younger.

02:32:24.000 I read the quote, Sam.

02:32:25.000 I read the quote.

02:32:26.000 And he's dressing a legal matter in case that happens.

02:32:29.000 You're equivocating on child.

02:32:30.000 He says you can have intercourse with under 12. 0.98

02:32:33.000 Is that pedophilia? 0.99

02:32:36.000 Dan, Dan, I think it's your turn to ask a question.

02:32:38.000 I read the entire page.

02:32:39.000 Unless you want to turn it to...

02:32:40.000 Dan, it's your turn to ask a question unless you want to turn it to Sam and he can ask you guys something.

02:32:46.000 Yeah, so my question is that we didn't just talk about child marriage.

02:32:49.000 We talked about punishment for blasphemy, punishment for adultery, execution, punishment for homosexuality. 0.55

02:32:56.000 Do you condemn all of these things in the Old Testament?

02:33:00.000 Do you think that these are wrong things?

02:33:02.000 When I read the quotes, the Bible is saying that you execute one who blasphemes.

02:33:06.000 Do you condemn that?

02:33:08.000 Or do you think that that's the morality?

02:33:10.000 You might think that it's not applicable today.

02:33:12.000 Fine.

02:33:12.000 But Jesus is still commanding that for that time, for a previous time.

02:33:16.000 So do you think that is morally justified?

02:33:18.000 All right, that's Sam.

02:33:19.000 Go ahead, Sam.

02:33:20.000 Now, let me answer.

02:33:21.000 Yeah.

02:33:21.000 Now, let me give you a Thor answer.

02:33:24.000 Listen, let's see if you're going to get it.

02:33:26.000 If you read these laws in the context from which you're quoting, unlike your prophet, who didn't give any sign that his God was backing him up, why don't you read these statements in context?

02:33:37.000 In the context, your Allah, who you admit is Jesus, because according to the Quran, that was Allah, which you just admit is Jesus, so Jesus is Muhammad's Allah, his God. 0.85

02:33:45.000 In the context of those passages, God appears to the nation visibly in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.

02:33:54.000 Not only in front of the Israelites, but He also appears to the Egyptians, leaving them with no excuse to defy His commands. 0.84

02:34:03.000 In other words, unlike your Elah, The God of the Bible proved his existence. 0.93

02:34:08.000 The God of the Bible set up a theocracy on earth. 0.99

02:34:11.000 The God of the Bible gave them ample proof not to doubt his existence, so that when they see him in the pillar of cloud, pillar of fire by night, hear his voice audibly and see the signs, so that even the Egyptians saw the pillar of cloud, Exodus 14, 19-31.

02:34:27.000 As well as Joshua 2, 8-11, He gave the nations no excuse for defying Him.

02:34:32.000 So when God shows up, then He has every right to tell you how to live, and if you defy Him, He has every right to take away your life, because He's the God over death and life.

02:34:42.000 This is unlike your prophet, Who could not provide any proof that God was speaking through him, who could not provide that his God even exists, all he did was he borrowed the collateral of the Jews and Christians, claimed to be a prophet like the prophets found in the Jewish Christian tradition, 0.73

02:35:00.000 but when he's challenged to prove that God sent him, Failed miserably.

02:35:06.000 So you're comparing apples and pineapples.

02:35:08.000 So if God shows up and I see and I know that he exists, he has every right to tell me what to do and every right to inflict any punishment he deems fit.

02:35:16.000 Unlike your Eli who doesn't exist.

02:35:19.000 Alright, Sam, you want to turn it back to them with a question?

02:35:21.000 Or Team Christianity, you answered the question, now it's back to you guys. 0.63

02:35:25.000 You've got two minutes left on the clock.

02:35:26.000 Now Jay, do you want to ask or want me to ask?

02:35:28.000 Well, I want to address, first of all, I'll let you ask the question, but I want to reply since we have two minutes.

02:35:34.000 You'll notice that when I brought up the line of argumentation that Daniel had in our debate, he didn't want to go there.

02:35:39.000 He immediately said that he was living rent-free in my head.

02:35:43.000 In other words, deflecting away from the fact that I've called him out on an inconsistency, because in that debate he was arguing for Islam having more continuity with the laws of the Old Testament.

02:35:52.000 That doesn't suit his purpose here, and so he doesn't want to go to that, and he has to deflect away.

02:35:59.000 No, that's because I just caught you in a double standard.

02:36:02.000 You're using two different standards, as usual.

02:36:05.000 So, Sam, I'll talk to you.

02:36:07.000 How many seconds do we have for this section?

02:36:09.000 A minute and a half if you've got a question or something that you want to ask the team.

02:36:12.000 Oh, I've got a question.

02:36:13.000 Oh, I'm sorry.

02:36:13.000 Let me ask these guys a question because they have the final, right?

02:36:17.000 They're going to answer.

02:36:17.000 This is the final one, right?

02:36:18.000 Yep.

02:36:19.000 Okay, now I want you guys to show me anywhere in your Quran, explicit, not inference, anywhere in your Quran, explicit, where it says, do not kill women and children.

02:36:29.000 In light of all the verses, such as the ones I mentioned, where your God rains stones on Sodom and Gomorrah indiscriminately, killing children and women and cattle, as well as flooding the people of Noah, including women, children, and cattle, can you show me a single verse in the Quran?

02:36:47.000 When he orders your prophet to go and perform jihad, not to kill women and children, when his pattern is he destroys everything? 0.75

02:36:53.000 All right.

02:36:54.000 Team Islam, go ahead and we'll put the clock back on just so we can ask. 1.00

02:36:57.000 So first of all, we don't just go by the Quran.

02:37:00.000 We also go by the example of the Prophet, peace be upon him.

02:37:03.000 There's the Quran and Sunnah.

02:37:04.000 So there are explicit hadith that say do not kill women and children and the elderly.

02:37:09.000 And we see this in the example of the Salaf as well.

02:37:11.000 Ijaz, go ahead and read the hadith for them.

02:37:15.000 Yeah, it's pretty simple.

02:37:16.000 The first is, a woman was found killed in one of these battles, so the Messenger of God sallallahu alayhi wa sallam forbade the killing of women and children, Sahih Muslim in Kitab al-Jihad.

02:37:26.000 The first Khalifa Abu Bakr radiallahu an, gave the following command to his arms.

02:37:31.000 So this is other than the Prophet, but his followers, immediate followers.

02:37:35.000 Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person.

02:37:39.000 Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees.

02:37:41.000 Do not destroy an inhabited place.

02:37:43.000 Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food.

02:37:46.000 Do not burn bees and do not scatter them.

02:37:48.000 Do not steal from the booty and do not be cowardly.

02:37:50.000 That would be tough, I guess, here for Sam.

02:37:52.000 But just to be clear here, just so we establish this, when you claim that the Qur'an approved rape, this was your claim, And you claim that the Qur'an approved genocide when you spoke of Saul.

02:38:06.000 Why does the Qur'an do that?

02:38:07.000 It never does that once.

02:38:09.000 And the Qur'an actually says in the same chapter, I'm not asking a question, I'm making a statement.

02:38:13.000 The Qur'an actually says in that chapter, do not transgress beyond the limits which Allah has established.

02:38:19.000 And we know what those limits are based on the durations we just read. 0.98

02:38:22.000 Also, to answer what Sam said, that, oh, there's a pillar of cloud that the Israelites saw, so therefore you can kill homosexuals. 0.95

02:38:31.000 He's ignorant of Mosaic law, because the Jews who lived after the time of Sinai, they were still bound by the Old Testament law. 0.97

02:38:39.000 They were still bound by the Mosaic law.

02:38:41.000 We're good to go.

02:38:48.000 We're good to go.

02:39:02.000 Your exegesis is completely off base.

02:39:05.000 And also Jay is misrepresenting the Catholic Church.

02:39:08.000 He's misrepresenting canon law.

02:39:10.000 I'll read more quotes for you.

02:39:12.000 In the 12th century, canon law jurist Gratian stated that consent for marriage could not take place before the age of 12 years old for females and 14 years old for males.

02:39:29.000 So, it's actually 7 years old and 12 years old.

02:39:40.000 Age of consent for marriage of 12 years old for girls and 14 year olds for boys is written into English law.

02:39:47.000 And then the Catholic Church, before the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the minimum age for a dissoluble betrothal was seven years.

02:39:56.000 Seven years in the contractees.

02:39:59.000 The minimal age for a valid marriage was puberty, or nominally 14 years for males and 12 years old for For females.

02:40:06.000 This is the 1917 code of the church.

02:40:10.000 So this is something that was up until very recently the Catholic doctrine.

02:40:15.000 I reference Thomas Aquinas.

02:40:17.000 I reference Gratian.

02:40:19.000 Sam is a heretic. 0.98

02:40:20.000 He's throwing all of the Catholic church under the bus. 1.00

02:40:23.000 He's throwing canon law under the bus. 0.97

02:40:26.000 And Jay refuses to say that these are all pedophiles.

02:40:28.000 Jay refuses to condemn Thomas Aquinas as a pedophile.

02:40:32.000 That's shocking.

02:40:32.000 I hope all the Christian listeners, especially the Protestants listening, note that these heretics, Sam and Jay, are down with pedophilia.

02:40:40.000 Did you not hear my condemnation?

02:40:43.000 I explicitly said I don't have a problem condemning Aquinas, so you just blew up. 0.97

02:40:47.000 As a pedophile.

02:40:47.000 Can I answer?

02:40:49.000 Yeah.

02:40:49.000 Do we ask a question now or what?

02:40:52.000 Well, he asked you guys a question.

02:40:55.000 You guys gave a very lengthy answer.

02:40:57.000 So it is on Team Christianity here. 0.86

02:41:00.000 I'll let them get the last one because we're way over time here and I know you have to pray very soon, Dan.

02:41:05.000 Yeah, I'll let you guys.

02:41:06.000 Daniel, pretend to listen better.

02:41:08.000 I know you're going to embarrass yourself.

02:41:09.000 You just destroyed your prophet again. 0.97

02:41:10.000 Because if you read the Old Testament, God didn't stop at Sinai.

02:41:14.000 And you're accusing me of not reading the Bible.

02:41:15.000 I think you want to be an umi like your prophet. 0.99

02:41:18.000 Continue reading the rest of the Old Testament.

02:41:20.000 God kept sending prophets with miracles and signs to keep ratifying and confirming his existence and that this is his law and he has a right to put to death whoever he wants.

02:41:30.000 Because in 1 Kings 18...

02:41:32.000 Elijah had a showdown with your spiritual ancestors, because your God, Allah of the Quran, is Baal. 0.99

02:41:38.000 And there God showed up miraculously that your God is fake and Yahweh is true. 1.00

02:41:42.000 So no, I am consistent with the Old Testament narrative.

02:41:45.000 All throughout, God shows up miraculously through prophets to confirm, I am God, this is my covenant, I have a right to do with you as I see fit.

02:41:54.000 Nothing for your prophet, the prophet of Baal. 1.00

02:41:57.000 Because your God is a fake God, and the God revealed in Jesus is the true God.

02:42:01.000 End of story.

02:42:02.000 Bye-bye.

02:42:02.000 You lost.

02:42:04.000 Oh, you saw a miracle, therefore kill the adulterer. 1.00

02:42:07.000 Oh, you saw a miracle, therefore kill the homos. 1.00

02:42:10.000 Yeah, that makes sense. 0.98

02:42:11.000 That's real great morality there.

02:42:13.000 I got two questions for the Muslims here, I think, from the supporters here.

02:42:17.000 Real quick, and then we'll close this thing out.

02:42:18.000 Thank you, guys.

02:42:19.000 That was a fantastic debate, by the way.

02:42:21.000 Sound arguments made on all four points.

02:42:23.000 I was taking a whole bunch of notes.

02:42:24.000 I learned a bunch myself.

02:42:26.000 I was learning a bunch because I'm not the most religious guy, so it was great to see both perspectives here.

02:42:33.000 RazorSharp135 says, it's a TTS? Okay, it just came in.

02:42:37.000 All right, so we'll let this play.

02:42:38.000 It's actually a talk to speech here.

02:42:39.000 It's Sam's favorite voice.

02:42:40.000 Just curious here, how is sin defined in Islam and in Christianity?

02:42:45.000 Or to say it this way, what is sin in Islam and in Christianity?

02:42:50.000 Alright, so I'll let each team just give their quick definition of it.

02:42:55.000 You want to answer, Jay?

02:42:58.000 We would just say that any sin is just simply a moral move of the will against the good, away from the good, against God's law.

02:43:04.000 That's it.

02:43:05.000 Amen.

02:43:06.000 For Islam? 0.88

02:43:08.000 Or do you guys agree with that definition?

02:43:11.000 Yeah, I mean, it's a similar definition.

02:43:12.000 Like, God sends a law, and then if you disobey it, it doesn't matter.

02:43:16.000 You have to see a miracle to obey the law.

02:43:18.000 Like, God sends the law.

02:43:19.000 If you disobey it, then that's a sin.

02:43:22.000 And then you can ask for forgiveness, and God will forgive your sins.

02:43:25.000 All right.

02:43:27.000 What else do we got here? 0.92

02:43:28.000 Danny Dana says, is it soon not to get ridden by naked, dark jinn like Muhammad did? 1.00

02:43:34.000 Question for Jiz and Homo and Daniel, the...

02:43:39.000 It's raging.

02:43:40.000 They're raging.

02:43:41.000 I think I got under their skin.

02:43:43.000 Islam only says, 4211 in the Quran makes it pretty clear that Allah having body parts is to be taken figuratively.

02:43:52.000 This thing is like split down the middle with people that support either or the religions.

02:43:58.000 Aristotle says, question for Team Islam. 0.98

02:44:00.000 Is the Quran created or uncreated? 0.96

02:44:02.000 Answer without commuting shirk.

02:44:04.000 Violating Taweed or violating Taanzi or making the Quran unknowable.

02:44:09.000 If you think this question is irrelevant, you have no grounds to criticize the Trinity.

02:44:14.000 The Quran is uncreated. 0.98

02:44:16.000 We don't need to...

02:44:16.000 Question for Team Islam.

02:44:18.000 Is the Quran created or uncreated? 0.96

02:44:21.000 Answer without commuting shirk, violating Tafeed, or violating Taanzi, or making the Quran unknowable.

02:44:28.000 If you think this question is irrelevant, you have no grounds to criticize the Trinity.

02:44:40.000 The Qur'an is uncreated.

02:44:42.000 We don't dispute this.

02:44:43.000 We don't doubt this.

02:44:44.000 The claim was that the Trinity is incoherent because there are multiple minds.

02:44:51.000 That was our critique.

02:44:52.000 That's why this is either polytheism or it's incoherent.

02:44:55.000 The Qur'an is uncreated, but The Quran doesn't have a mind. 1.00

02:44:58.000 The Quran is not a person. 1.00

02:45:00.000 No one has claimed this, but people do claim.

02:45:02.000 Christian theologians do claim that Jesus has a mind.

02:45:05.000 Is it the same mind as the Fathers and the Holy Spirits?

02:45:08.000 There's a debate.

02:45:09.000 There's no clarity in the Christian tradition because it's a contradiction.

02:45:13.000 That's why.

02:45:14.000 But we don't have the same problem in Islam.

02:45:16.000 The Quran doesn't have a mind, so how does it contradict monotheism?

02:45:20.000 Can I reply to that?

02:45:21.000 No one could explain that.

02:45:23.000 No one could explain that in this debate.

02:45:25.000 Because there's a debate, it's not clear?

02:45:27.000 Would that mean that because there's a debate in Islam amongst all the schools, none of it's clear about the attributes?

02:45:31.000 No one debates about Islam having multiple gods.

02:45:36.000 They don't debate the attributes?

02:45:38.000 I have multiple attributes.

02:45:40.000 That doesn't mean I'm multiple people.

02:45:41.000 How is that contradicting?

02:45:44.000 How does that contradict?

02:45:47.000 Explain.

02:45:48.000 You know you debate Salheed.

02:45:50.000 I'm not saying that there are debates, that there are no debates in Islam.

02:45:54.000 There are debates in Islamic theology.

02:45:56.000 Exactly.

02:45:56.000 So that was a bad argument.

02:45:57.000 No, no.

02:45:58.000 But there's debate in Christianity about the nature of God.

02:46:01.000 There isn't that same debate about there's being three and one.

02:46:04.000 What is the difference between the Father and the Son?

02:46:08.000 Do they have the same knowledge?

02:46:09.000 Do they have the same will?

02:46:11.000 Do they have the same knowledge?

02:46:12.000 Do they have the same will?

02:46:13.000 We don't have the same debate.

02:46:14.000 Jake versus Bo Branson.

02:46:15.000 We don't have that same debate in Islam.

02:46:18.000 It doesn't matter if it's the same debate.

02:46:19.000 You said debate means it's not clear.

02:46:20.000 You said if there's debate, it's not clear.

02:46:22.000 That's a fallacy.

02:46:23.000 You're a fallacy machine.

02:46:24.000 No, that's not what I said, actually.

02:46:26.000 So you don't follow the argument.

02:46:28.000 That's the problem.

02:46:29.000 All right.

02:46:29.000 I'll fly through these real quick and close out.

02:46:31.000 Chris Percession says, Hi, Sam.

02:46:33.000 It's Bored Cody.

02:46:35.000 I have a question for Ajaz.

02:46:37.000 You're citing scholars to prove reliability, but plenty of scholars, Metzer, Gerd, Gerdeson, Joedsey, Rayner, Reisner, says the NT traces the actual words of Jesus.

02:46:48.000 What scholar says Quran traces actual Jesus?

02:46:51.000 Do you want me to answer this?

02:46:52.000 It's quite simple.

02:46:53.000 Sure, go ahead.

02:46:54.000 Yeah, so scholars do not say it traces back to the very words of Jesus.

02:46:59.000 They actually say it goes back to the ideas about what Jesus could have said.

02:47:02.000 It's called the Ipsosimo Vox, or what Jesus could have said.

02:47:06.000 There is no way to determine that Jesus actually said anything that is claimed in the New Testament.

02:47:11.000 And between the Gospels themselves, they're not dateable to the first century CE, which is the big problem.

02:47:17.000 We can largely assume that they're from the second century onwards, as Sam claimed in his interview with Chadescu, I think was the name.

02:47:25.000 Just to be clear, as for the Qur'an, however, you don't have to guess.

02:47:29.000 Because the manuscripts are within the lifetime of the Prophet, peace be upon him, but the manuscripts aside, we have inscriptions.

02:47:35.000 But the inscriptions aside, we have other geographical data that is widespread enough to definitively prove that the Qur'an as we have it today is from the lifetime of the Prophet, peace be upon him, and his companions.

02:47:48.000 We call this, just to be clear, an archetypal text.

02:47:50.000 This is what we accept as Muslims.

02:47:52.000 But for Christians, there is no such thing. 0.62

02:47:55.000 I would like Sam or Jay to really point out that the Bible as they have it today, the scholars refer to it as a voyage or a hypothetical reconstruction.

02:48:05.000 It's not actually the Word of God.

02:48:07.000 When you see it mentions that every word in Scripture is God-readed, they should amend it to say it may be God-readed, but we can't actually know.

02:48:17.000 I mean, for goodness sake, Jesus got God's name wrong.

02:48:19.000 Can I respond to him because he brought a question to us?

02:48:23.000 Yeah, I mean, he was answering a question from one of the chaters.

02:48:26.000 Up to you.

02:48:26.000 You don't want me to answer.

02:48:27.000 No, no, no.

02:48:27.000 Go ahead.

02:48:28.000 I want to make sure everybody gets a fair say here because my thing is I want you guys to put your ideas out there and let the chat decide who they think wins.

02:48:34.000 So go ahead, please.

02:48:35.000 Okay, now, number one, again, because he doesn't know much about...

02:48:38.000 Are we getting to do responses to this chat?

02:48:41.000 We didn't agree on that.

02:48:42.000 No.

02:48:43.000 Well, I mean, you answered the chat, and then he wants to give his perspective as well.

02:48:46.000 Yeah, because you asked the question to us, right?

02:48:48.000 So do you want me to answer?

02:48:48.000 Yeah, it's fine.

02:48:49.000 Let him respond, and then we can respond to any of the chats.

02:48:52.000 Okay, so if he responds to...

02:48:53.000 Number one.

02:48:54.000 Number one.

02:48:55.000 Okay, when he talks about ipsisimavax, ipsisimavurba, that now he just destroyed the Qur'an even worse, because when we come to the case of the Gospels, no Christian denies that human authors were used to communicate the words of Jesus in translation in Greek, and God can do that.

02:49:10.000 So they're not going to quote exactly the same way in the target language.

02:49:14.000 But what he doesn't tell you, and I did series on this, Allah, who's supposedly speaking the Qur'an, will repeat the same story.

02:49:21.000 With the same speech, whether Moses and the Egyptians, or Shaitan, Iblis, and Allah, or Lot, and he cannot get the details in the exact same way, he'll quote the same speeches in often various conflicting, contradictory reporting.

02:49:38.000 So the Quran itself is one huge Ipsissima Vax, which is surprising because I thought Allah is speaking and Allah knows everything and recalls speeches perfectly. 0.93

02:49:47.000 So much for Allah and Him being all-knowing. 1.00

02:49:49.000 And then if we extend that to the Hadith, your own scholars admit that when it comes to even your authentic traditions, you have Ipsissima Vax of your Prophet, not Ipsissima Verba.

02:50:00.000 Moreover, If the Bible is not preserved, you prove Muhammad is an antichrist, because he confirmed all the scriptures. 0.57

02:50:07.000 He didn't make any fuss about the variant readings, because if he did, he would end up bearing your Qur'an, because he admit that the Qur'an did not come down in one mode.

02:50:16.000 Ahruf, which your scholars till this day don't even know what the hell that means. 0.98

02:50:20.000 That's why you have over 35 opinions about what the Ahruf are, which means if you're consistent, you just destroyed the Qur'an, you destroyed your Prophet, you destroyed your God, Stop being a Muslim. 1.00

02:50:31.000 Join Bart Ehrman, man.

02:50:32.000 So, I could just respond to this quickly.

02:50:34.000 Yeah, go ahead.

02:50:34.000 I mean, the Bible affirms that the Prophet Muhammad is a true prophet.

02:50:38.000 In 1 John chapter 4, I'm reading it.

02:50:41.000 It's false and it's fake, but it says some things are occasionally right.

02:50:44.000 A broken clock can be right twice a day, right?

02:50:49.000 I don't deny that the Bible might say God is one occasionally.

02:50:52.000 It's false and it's fake, but it's good here.

02:50:55.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:50:56.000 Good job.

02:50:57.000 I don't deny this.

02:50:58.000 We never say, we never made a claim that...

02:51:01.000 It's false and fake.

02:51:01.000 I'll prove it here.

02:51:03.000 Okay, we can interrupt you too, Jay.

02:51:07.000 We can interrupt you.

02:51:11.000 To be clear, neither Daniel or I made the claim that all of the Bible is false or wrong.

02:51:19.000 It gets things right.

02:51:20.000 It mentions Jesus' mother.

02:51:22.000 It mentions Jesus.

02:51:24.000 It gets it right when God agrees with it, not when it allows genocide in your case.

02:51:29.000 So let's be clear here.

02:51:30.000 We have...

02:51:38.000 Keep interrupting because you don't like the answer.

02:51:41.000 Let's be clear here.

02:51:43.000 The Bible, 1 John 4 verses 2 and 3, it mentions directly anyone who testifies that Jesus is the Christ and that Jesus came in the flesh is a true spirit from God.

02:51:53.000 So you may not have to like it, but your Bible affirms Muhammad. 0.95

02:52:02.000 It doesn't have to be genuine for me as long as you believe in it.

02:52:05.000 It's consistent for me to get that point.

02:52:07.000 I can put the Bible against you.

02:52:08.000 I can put the Bible against you.

02:52:10.000 I don't have to assume that this is Islam.

02:52:14.000 It's not secular reasoning, because I'm not implying the consequence, to be clear.

02:52:18.000 So one more time, please try not to interrupt.

02:52:20.000 I know you don't like the answer.

02:52:21.000 Secondly, you made the claim that the Prophet, peace be upon him, committed rape.

02:52:25.000 We asked you to show where he did so, and you could not.

02:52:28.000 On the other hand, I showed you where Jesus the Christ...

02:52:33.000 He affirms that whatever the Pharisees tell you, do it.

02:52:37.000 He says they're hypocrites, but he also says obey them. 0.96

02:52:43.000 And we know that they committed genocide. 0.98

02:52:47.000 I don't need to, I quote exactly what I want.

02:52:51.000 Thirdly, you made the claim that Jesus never affirmed anything extreme.

02:52:56.000 But if you believe he affirmed the Old Testament, he affirmed the crimes, the rapes, the murders, the genocide. 0.88

02:53:07.000 He's sanctioned Moses to do that, so thank Allah. 0.88

02:53:10.000 We don't believe that, and the Quran never says that.

02:53:12.000 That's your assumption.

02:53:13.000 Does it confirm the flood?

02:53:16.000 I said the Quran doesn't affirm the genocide that someone wants to believe in.

02:53:20.000 Oh, the difference between the Bible and the Quran. 0.77

02:53:24.000 Yeah, the flood happens.

02:53:26.000 There is pestilence.

02:53:28.000 That's different than the Bible.

02:53:29.000 The Bible says the soldiers... 1.00

02:53:31.000 Jesus says the soldiers go kill those babies. 0.99

02:53:35.000 That's what Jesus says. 0.99

02:53:36.000 There's nothing like that in the Quran.

02:53:38.000 Jesus says... 0.99

02:53:40.000 Jesus says, go and kill. 1.00

02:53:42.000 Jesus says, go and kill those babies. 1.00

02:53:44.000 Don't leave anything that breathes. 1.00

02:53:46.000 Go take their women as captives. 1.00

02:53:49.000 Go take the girls that have not slept with any man. 1.00

02:53:52.000 The girls who haven't slept with any man, take them as your Do uncreated things share communicable attributes with 1.00

02:54:22.000 created things such that we can have knowledge of them?

02:54:25.000 We didn't hear the question.

02:54:27.000 Okay, so I think it was a TTS chat.

02:54:29.000 Okay, this is what I'm going to do.

02:54:30.000 I think, Dan, you got to say what you wanted to say about talking about what Jesus had done.

02:54:35.000 Sam, I'll let you respond because you were trying to say something.

02:54:37.000 No, I didn't respond.

02:54:37.000 I didn't get to finish my point.

02:54:38.000 You can't interrupt me.

02:54:39.000 Finish your point and then it goes to Sam and then Jay.

02:54:42.000 And then we'll finish off on this.

02:54:43.000 There's a difference between God sending pestilence or God sending a catastrophe to punish a people.

02:54:49.000 That is a natural disaster that God commands.

02:54:53.000 That's different from what the Bible says.

02:54:54.000 The Bible, Jesus is telling Moses, go and kill the women, children, and leave nothing that breathes.

02:55:01.000 That is a command to people, to soldiers, to go and actually commit that.

02:55:06.000 And the interpreters of the Bible, including the Christians, took those verses to justify their genocidal programs. 1.00

02:55:13.000 In the Roman Empire, in the Byzantine Empire, all the way to the colonial period.

02:55:18.000 They use these verses of the Bible.

02:55:20.000 Israel today, they're using these verses of the Bible to justify their genocide throughout history. 0.93

02:55:26.000 The Russian Orthodox Church as well.

02:55:27.000 The Russian Orthodox Church uses these verses to justify the murders in Ukraine as well. 0.82

02:55:32.000 Muslims don't say, oh, we can go kill babies because there was Noah's flood.

02:55:37.000 No Muslim has had this interpretation.

02:55:40.000 But that's the difference between the Bible and the Quran.

02:55:42.000 Let me go to Sam and Jay so they can respond and then we'll finish this topic.

02:55:47.000 Yeah, go ahead, Sam.

02:55:48.000 I know you're trying to say something.

02:55:51.000 Did we lose him?

02:55:52.000 Or is he muted?

02:55:54.000 He's muted.

02:55:55.000 Sam, are you muted?

02:55:56.000 Yeah, you can unmute yourself, Sam.

02:55:58.000 We'll try to, yeah.

02:55:59.000 All right, well, I'll go.

02:56:00.000 Go ahead.

02:56:01.000 You ready?

02:56:02.000 You want me to go further?

02:56:02.000 You get the last word, Jay?

02:56:03.000 Go ahead.

02:56:04.000 Okay.

02:56:05.000 All right.

02:56:05.000 I know you guys have a hard time hearing, because let me repeat again what you failed to address adequately.

02:56:12.000 You just proved Jesus is Allah, Muhammad's God, and judge. 1.00

02:56:14.000 Let me repeat the ayat again.

02:56:16.000 Everything we said proves that, apparently.

02:56:17.000 Okay, so chapter 2, verse 246 to 251.

02:56:21.000 Read chapter 2, verse 246 to 251.

02:56:23.000 Read chapter 5, verse 20 to 26.

02:56:26.000 Jesus, your Allah, Muhammad's God, who gave him the Quran and you corrupted it, he's the one who ordered what Moses and Joshua and Saul did, and there's nothing in these passages that say... 0.99

02:56:37.000 That when you go ahead and do this...

02:56:39.000 Nothing in the Quran says that.

02:56:41.000 Guys, guys, guys, read the passage.

02:56:42.000 They can't let you stand.

02:56:44.000 They have to cut it.

02:56:46.000 Read it.

02:56:47.000 Go ahead, guys.

02:56:48.000 Read the passage.

02:56:49.000 Take it easy.

02:56:50.000 No, read the Quran.

02:56:50.000 Read the Quran.

02:56:52.000 Stop foaming.

02:56:52.000 Let me read now.

02:56:53.000 Read the Quran.

02:56:54.000 Can I read?

02:56:55.000 Go ahead, Sam.

02:56:57.000 I know you're about to recite the Quran.

02:56:59.000 Let me read.

02:56:59.000 Sam, can you read the Quran?

02:57:02.000 Let him speak.

02:57:03.000 Let him speak.

02:57:04.000 I'll read both.

02:57:05.000 He's afraid to do it.

02:57:09.000 Matt, they won't let me finish their manifestos.

02:57:11.000 You guys won't let me, you guys.

02:57:14.000 Said Bukhari, Volume 4, Number 353.

02:57:18.000 Narrated Abu Hurairah, the prophet said, A prophet amongst the prophets carried out a holy military expedition.

02:57:23.000 So he said to his followers, Anyone who has married a woman and wants to consummate the marriage and has not done so yet should not accompany me, nor should a man who has built a house but has not completed its roof, nor...

02:57:36.000 A man who is sheep, or she-camels, and is waiting for the birth of their young ones. 0.98

02:57:40.000 So the Prophet carried out the expedition, and when he reached that town at the time, or nearly at the time of the Asr prayer, he said to the son, O son, you are under Allah's order, and I'm under Allah's order.

02:57:52.000 O Allah, stop the sun from setting.

02:57:54.000 It was stopped till Allah made him victorious.

02:57:57.000 Then he collected the booty, and the fire came to burn it, but it did not burn it.

02:58:01.000 He said to the man, some of you have stolen something from the booty, so one man from every tribe should give me a pledge of allegiance by shaking hands with me.

02:58:09.000 They did so, and the hand of a man got stuck over the hand of their prophet.

02:58:14.000 Then that prophet said to the man, The theft has been committed by your people, so all the persons of your tribe should give me the pledge of allegiance by shaking hands with them.

02:58:22.000 The hands of two or three men got stuck over the hand of their prophet, and he said, You have committed the theft.

02:58:27.000 Then they brought a head of gold, like the head of a cow, and put it there, and the fire came and consumed the body.

02:58:31.000 The prophet added, Then Allah saw our weakness and disability, so he made booty legal for us. 0.92

02:58:36.000 Here, Sahih Bukhari, your prophet...

02:58:40.000 Confirms Durami 20 verses 1 to 9, which you just attacked earlier, meaning you're better than your prophet. 0.91

02:58:45.000 I didn't hear the murder of the race.

02:58:47.000 Don't interrupt me, buddy.

02:58:48.000 Where's the murder of the rape?

02:58:50.000 It's absent.

02:58:52.000 Where was it?

02:58:53.000 You didn't say any of that.

02:58:56.000 When he goes...

02:58:57.000 Why are you off cam?

02:58:58.000 Why are you off cam?

02:58:58.000 Show your face when you say it.

02:59:00.000 Yeah, why don't you show your face?

02:59:02.000 Show your face when you say it.

02:59:04.000 Glory to Jesus.

02:59:05.000 Go ahead, Jake.

02:59:06.000 Alright, Jake, finish up here and then we'll move on to the next topic.

02:59:10.000 Dan, I know you said you have to go, right?

02:59:12.000 At 8.30?

02:59:13.000 You have to pray?

02:59:14.000 Yeah, I have to pray pretty soon.

02:59:16.000 Are we finishing up?

02:59:18.000 Yeah, we are finishing up here.

02:59:20.000 Go ahead, Jake.

02:59:22.000 No, Sam, you can finish that point.

02:59:24.000 You can take the rest of the time.

02:59:25.000 Oh, they're going to manifest because it's time for prayer.

02:59:27.000 So let's see if they can control themselves.

02:59:29.000 Okay, guys, did you hear me read?

02:59:31.000 Nothing in the context makes any exceptions.

02:59:36.000 Muhammad is confirming these stories as found in the Bible.

02:59:39.000 Nothing in the context says that Joshua was told all but spare women and children.

02:59:45.000 They have to read that into it because they got humiliated.

02:59:49.000 You said you would also read the Qur'an.

02:59:51.000 So read that in the Qur'an, please.

02:59:52.000 Keep manifesting.

02:59:54.000 So you can read it in the Hadith and you can read it in the Qur'an.

02:59:57.000 And you had your faith in shame.

02:59:58.000 Let him finish and then we'll make your points.

03:00:01.000 So now the burden of proof is on Daniel before he goes and prays to Baal. 0.76

03:00:05.000 Show me in these passages in Surat Al-Ma'idah 520-26, Surat Al-Baqarah 246-251.

03:00:12.000 I'll be listening all of the Qur'an now.

03:00:14.000 Can I finish my question?

03:00:17.000 Let him finish, Ijaz.

03:00:18.000 Let him finish.

03:00:19.000 You're about to follow the sunnah of your prophet. 0.98

03:00:22.000 Tell me where in those passages your prophet said that when Allah sent Musa and Joshua, that he gave them the orders, spare the women and children, because he quotes them as is, and he confirms the Torah in his possession.

03:00:37.000 So now go ahead, condemn your prophet.

03:00:39.000 Christ wins, Muhammad loses again. 1.00

03:00:41.000 Go ahead.

03:00:41.000 Are you done?

03:00:43.000 First of all, you didn't show that the verses of the Quran or the Hadith are condoning rape and murder.

03:00:51.000 That's your first lie.

03:00:53.000 As found in the Bible.

03:00:54.000 As found in the Bible.

03:00:55.000 We read verses of the Bible.

03:00:56.000 We'll read it again.

03:00:58.000 Jesus said to Moses, have you let the women live? 1.00

03:01:01.000 Now kill every male among the little ones and kill every woman. 1.00

03:01:05.000 Every woman who has known man by lying with him. 1.00

03:01:08.000 So basically, save the virgins for yourself.

03:01:10.000 That's what Jesus says. 0.99

03:01:12.000 And then you can force them to marry you, shave their heads, and humiliate them. 0.91

03:01:16.000 This is what we're reading from Numbers. 0.99

03:01:17.000 So this is like, you didn't mention any rape.

03:01:20.000 The hadith that Ijaz read earlier says that there's no killing of women and children.

03:01:26.000 Why can't you deal with that?

03:01:28.000 We don't read one hadith and say that one hadith that you read...

03:01:32.000 Let me do it.

03:01:33.000 See, we didn't interrupt you, right?

03:01:35.000 Okay, go ahead.

03:01:35.000 No, actually, Hijaz did, so stop lying.

03:01:37.000 And we told him not to.

03:01:38.000 I told him not to.

03:01:38.000 He kept doing it.

03:01:39.000 He kept manifesting.

03:01:40.000 You want me to give me a minute?

03:01:42.000 Watch what I do with Numbers 31.

03:01:43.000 I'll bury your argument.

03:01:44.000 Put the camera back on and say that to my face. 0.91

03:01:47.000 Yeah.

03:01:47.000 A little short guy like you, Muni Daniel to help you.

03:01:50.000 I'm still the image of your God, isn't it?

03:01:53.000 I can see that this isn't going to...

03:01:54.000 You guys are just going to keep going in a circle.

03:01:56.000 It's fine.

03:01:57.000 Well... 0.95

03:01:59.000 The point was that there's no passage in the Quran, there's no verse that condones genocide, whereas we read the explicit words of Jesus saying to go and kill the babies.

03:02:11.000 How are you coping with this? 0.98

03:02:12.000 It's all just a cope from Sam, and it looks silly.

03:02:17.000 You didn't quote anything.

03:02:18.000 We quoted you the hadith that says don't kill women and children.

03:02:20.000 We don't just take the Quran.

03:02:21.000 We take the Quran and Sunnah.

03:02:23.000 So when you cite one hadith, you didn't show where that hadith says kill women and children.

03:02:29.000 You didn't show that.

03:02:31.000 Where does the hadith say kill women and children?

03:02:34.000 Don't just filibuster and pretend we're not going to notice.

03:02:38.000 Don't pretend we're not going to notice that nothing that you read says kill women and children.

03:02:42.000 Where does it say?

03:02:43.000 Where does it say kill women and children? 0.67

03:02:46.000 Where does it say kill women and children?

03:02:49.000 Can I answer you with your question?

03:02:51.000 I know you don't know logic and you want to shift the burden of proof.

03:02:54.000 You quoted hadith where your prophet said it, but there's the same hadith that says that if women and children are killed, they are of them. 0.75

03:03:02.000 It's in Sahih Muslim.

03:03:03.000 I mentioned it, but you read the chapter.

03:03:06.000 Read the whole chapter.

03:03:07.000 Read the whole thing.

03:03:08.000 The chapter says, the unlawful, the chapter reads, the prohibition of killing women and children.

03:03:15.000 And it was not a permission to kill women and children.

03:03:18.000 It was a category of whether they're polytheists or not.

03:03:22.000 We're just going to move on.

03:03:23.000 There's a question here.

03:03:36.000 I think that's a question for Team Islam.

03:03:55.000 It's indicative.

03:03:57.000 We can indicate things, but not know the exact essence of them.

03:04:02.000 Which is why Allah establishes, there is nothing absolutely like him, but he can indicate knowledge which is familiar to us.

03:04:09.000 Okay.

03:04:10.000 That's pretty much it.

03:04:11.000 Fair enough.

03:04:11.000 So what I'm going to do is I'm going to, and then last one here, one question for Daniel.

03:04:15.000 If your prophet is a representation of what you should be, why don't all Muslims have intercourse with nine-year-olds, and why don't you allow your daughter to get married when she is six? 0.99

03:04:25.000 Do you want to address that? 0.93

03:04:27.000 Yeah, absolutely.

03:04:29.000 I have an entire debate with a Christian on this topic.

03:04:34.000 What?

03:04:34.000 Sorry?

03:04:35.000 On Aisha, if I'm not mistaken, right? 0.84

03:04:37.000 The nine-year-old?

03:04:38.000 The age of Aisha, yeah. 1.00

03:04:39.000 The wife of the prophet, peace be upon him.

03:04:41.000 This is the number one thing that Christians want to bring up against Islam. 1.00

03:04:45.000 And we pointed out in this debate that the Bible has no problem with child marriage.

03:04:50.000 The church actually has no problem with child marriage and actually endorses it with 12 years old or younger.

03:04:56.000 Canon law, Gratian endorses it.

03:04:59.000 And even Jay could not condemn Thomas Aquinas as a pedophile.

03:05:02.000 He condemns him.

03:05:03.000 He condemns him, but he doesn't say that he's a pedophile.

03:05:06.000 So actually, within this debate, we've seen plenty of resources within Christianity that child marriage is condoned.

03:05:13.000 It's accepted.

03:05:14.000 And that's the Christian tradition. 0.98

03:05:15.000 Now, if Christians want to throw their entire Bible, their church tradition in the trash, go ahead. 1.00

03:05:20.000 Muslims, we're consistent. 0.99

03:05:21.000 We say that, look, marriage can happen at the age of puberty.

03:05:25.000 When a girl goes through puberty or a boy goes through puberty, then they can get married. 0.69

03:05:29.000 And that is what That's what every culture and religion has practiced historically.

03:05:34.000 It's only become a problem in modern times because of modern educational system that requires you to go through 12 years of education so you can become a wage slave, go and work in the factories, go and work for the industries.

03:05:47.000 So they want to prevent you from getting married younger, as a teenager.

03:05:51.000 Instead, they want you to fornicate. 0.99

03:05:52.000 They want little girls at 9 years old to fornicate with each other. 0.99

03:05:56.000 And a lot of these Christians, they don't have problems with their kids having a girlfriend or boyfriend or experimenting with sex at age 9, 10, 11, 12. 0.97

03:06:04.000 That's happening rampant within Western society. 0.99

03:06:06.000 All we hear is about how Islam is pedophilic. 0.86

03:06:10.000 Well, look at your own societies. 0.97

03:06:11.000 Marriage would be the solution to the amount of degeneracy that unfortunately we see in the West.

03:06:16.000 And maybe Jay would agree with me, maybe not Sam, but Jay might agree that marriage can be the solution for a 15-year-old to get married, a 14-year-old to get married.

03:06:25.000 That was certainly the church's position.

03:06:27.000 Okay.

03:06:28.000 Anything else?

03:06:30.000 Alright, that was the last one.

03:06:31.000 So guys, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

03:06:33.000 I want you guys to all just kind of say where the people can find you, where they can get your content if they're interested in learning more about you.

03:06:42.000 We'll turn it over to...

03:06:43.000 We can start with you guys.

03:06:44.000 Go ahead.

03:06:45.000 Yeah, EF Dawah and everywhere you go.

03:06:48.000 He has a YouTube channel.

03:06:49.000 Guys, go check him out.

03:06:49.000 EF Dawah.

03:06:50.000 Okay.

03:06:51.000 What about you, Daniel? 0.94

03:06:53.000 Yeah, Muslim Skeptic. 1.00

03:06:54.000 That's the channel.

03:06:55.000 You Google it, Muslim Skeptic with a K. And we have a lot of debates, playlists, where I debate Christians, Jews, Hindus, atheists.

03:07:02.000 So you can check me out on Muslim Skeptic. 1.00

03:07:04.000 There's also MuslimSkeptic.com with a website with a lot of material as well.

03:07:08.000 Awesome.

03:07:09.000 Sam?

03:07:11.000 Oh, you're muted, Sam.

03:07:13.000 You might have to unmute yourself.

03:07:18.000 Here, yeah, you have to just unmute yourself.

03:07:20.000 Okay, Shamounian, if you go to YouTube, it's Shamounian, S-H-A-M-O-U-N-I-A-N. And also on Rumble, it's Answering Islam, and I have answeringislamblog.wordpress.com. 1.00

03:07:31.000 I try to stream daily, so Lord willing, you can find me there, and you can find the articles and all the material we use there, as well as an answeringislam.info, so that's where you can find me.

03:07:40.000 Awesome.

03:07:41.000 Jay?

03:07:43.000 Yeah, jaysanalysis.com.

03:07:44.000 You can find me on all the socials under my name, Jay Dyer.

03:07:47.000 You can also find me every Friday hosting the Alex Jones Show.

03:07:51.000 Alright, awesome on Infowars.

03:07:53.000 Guys, I hope you guys enjoyed the debate, man.

03:07:55.000 We'll probably host something like this maybe in the future.

03:07:57.000 You know, got a little personal there at times, but the guys still remain extremely professional, which I thank you guys for that.

03:08:02.000 Thank you guys so much.

03:08:03.000 It was great to have you guys.

03:08:04.000 Guys, please go follow them.

03:08:05.000 Go check them out.

03:08:06.000 We'll be back here with some lovely ladies in about 45 minutes, in about an hour. 1.00

03:08:11.000 We'll have some after hours.

03:08:12.000 It won't be as kosher as this debate was here.

03:08:14.000 So, we'll catch you guys.

03:08:16.000 Thank you guys so much for coming on the podcast.

03:08:18.000 Great to have you guys.

03:08:18.000 Peace.

03:08:22.000 Out of the way! 0.99

Fresh & Fit - August 14, 2024

Religious Debate

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript