Full Comment - August 17, 2026


A Canadian history of drinking, fighting and puking in Parliament


Episode Stats


Length

50 minutes

Words per minute

195.09

Word count

9,844

Sentence count

534


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
00:00:00.480 Recently, our company's softball team lost the big game by one run.
00:00:04.800 Then Dale tried to console us with the quote,
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00:00:14.680 If my team goes up big, I get paid out instantly,
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00:00:21.280 Thanks, Bet365.
00:00:22.920 Must be 19 or older, Ontario only.
00:00:24.420 Please play responsibly.
00:00:25.240 If you have questions or concerns about your gambling
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00:00:30.000 some people think that parliament is boring those people would be wrong and they probably
00:00:37.200 haven't spent much time there hello and welcome to the full comment podcast my name is brian
00:00:41.160 lily your host and today we're taking a look at a book that pulls back the curtain on some of the
00:00:47.160 crazier things that have happened in canada's parliament over the years some of them are
00:00:51.360 stories that i've heard some of them it turns out are myths the book is called unparliamentary
00:00:57.160 Tales from Canada's Colorful Parliamentary Past.
00:01:00.380 Charlie Feldman is the author.
00:01:01.760 He's a longtime Hill worker on the nonpartisan side,
00:01:06.140 not working with politicians, but around them, Charlie.
00:01:09.020 And you've picked up some good stories,
00:01:11.300 and you've also broken my heart by telling me that some of them are myths.
00:01:15.260 Welcome to the podcast.
00:01:16.840 Thanks so much for having me.
00:01:18.440 So the one that you broke my heart on,
00:01:24.220 because I've even had Stephen Harper tell this story,
00:01:27.160 To a group of journalists who were at 24 Sussex and saying, you know, I think it was Tonda McCharles from the Toronto Star talking about, well, the decorum in the House isn't what it used to be.
00:01:41.120 You know, people are arguing all the time.
00:01:43.540 And Prime Minister Harper said, well, you do know that the seats are two sword lengths apart for a reason, don't you?
00:01:50.980 Tell me about this.
00:01:52.160 This is a story that you tell in the book because that story is told constantly.
00:01:56.340 I think if it's not still told on the tour, it used to be told to all the school kids and, you know, tourists showing up.
00:02:05.920 Yeah, this is the problem when you start digging behind stories that just sound maybe too good to be true.
00:02:10.500 So as the story goes, the government and opposition benches are chewed sword lanes apart to prevent dueling.
00:02:15.660 And we're told that this practice harkens back to Westminster.
00:02:18.780 The issue is that we have no evidence that that's why the distance is that.
00:02:23.180 We have no real record of dueling MPs once upon a time.
00:02:26.760 And in fact, Westminster has put out a publication more recently talking about they have lines on the floor saying that while it's popularly believed that it was to keep members apart from duels, this has no historical evidence.
00:02:39.000 So what we know about the old Westminster is that it was actually a chapel.
00:02:42.520 And the understanding is that the width was to allow a priest and two acolytes to sort of go up on the altar.
00:02:47.720 And that's what the original distance was.
00:02:49.660 in any event parliament as you know burned down in 1916 when they rebuilt it there would have been
00:02:54.700 no reason to keep that distance for dueling um so in short we tell this story because we like to
00:03:00.500 tell it but we have no sort of historical evidence to say yes in fact this is the reason this distance
00:03:05.580 is put between those benches um but i i'm with you it's a fun one to tell and i like the imagery
00:03:10.980 and there's all sorts of references to it in hansard um i think it's one of those myths that
00:03:15.340 once you hear it and it makes sense to you you kind of nod your head then it's an easy one to
00:03:19.000 retell and uh sort of in doing the book and pulling back the curtain a bunch of these tales
00:03:23.540 i was also disappointed to find out there might not be as much historical accuracy as i would like
00:03:28.180 to some of the more fun parliament stories well i mean we should have known it wasn't true because
00:03:33.060 as you point out in the book armor has been banned in uh parliament in the british parliament which
00:03:39.680 we inherited it's been banned since 1313 and um weapons have long been banned in fact in uh
00:03:49.000 Canada's parliament in Ottawa until the 2014 terrorist attack, the guards inside the parliamentary
00:03:56.880 buildings were not armed. That I didn't know. I haven't looked into that history, but the guys
00:04:04.800 on the outside were armed. The guys on the inside weren't. Okay. Yes. I mean, we've certainly seen
00:04:11.100 some interesting, I would say, violence on the inside of the legislature, luckily not involving
00:04:17.320 firearms, but involving some other things. So not to jump ahead too far into the book,
00:04:21.320 but for example, things thrown from the gallery that we might not expect or
00:04:24.760 fistfights between members. But luckily, the more extreme violence we've been shielded from,
00:04:31.660 and certainly, I mean, the idea of Canadian MPs, you know, in 1867 showing up with swords and that
00:04:37.500 being a thing to worry about, it's just there's absolutely no basis for that.
00:04:41.000 the book is called unparliamentary why that's a phrase that the speaker will often use when
00:04:49.060 somebody says something they shouldn't right yeah so i wanted to take it a bit broader than that and
00:04:54.300 also talk about things that you wouldn't associate with parliament so while a lot of it has to do
00:04:59.700 with sort of incidents of decorum that would otherwise be unparliamentary so obviously
00:05:04.540 curse words and unparliamentary language we can think of but also conduct between members like
00:05:08.840 fistfights or like being drunk in your seat. I also wanted this book to talk about things you
00:05:12.680 wouldn't associate with Parliament. So, for example, the library of Parliament having a
00:05:16.660 subscription to Playboy once upon a time. And the story there is that, yeah, the copies would go
00:05:23.000 missing, shockingly. And so the solution of then parliamentary librarian Eric Spicer was to put
00:05:27.480 them in the rare book room, which members had to sign in and out. And all of a sudden, the theft
00:05:31.800 stopped. So just to say, there's all these sorts of little tales that you wouldn't think of when
00:05:36.440 you think Parliament, and I wanted to capture them in one place.
00:05:41.320 We often hear that, oh, decorum's getting worse, decorum's getting worse.
00:05:46.260 You know, as someone that started going to Parliament Hill full-time, I've been watching
00:05:53.180 it longer than that, but started going to Parliament Hill full-time, watching the debate,
00:05:56.880 sitting in the chamber, sitting in that press gallery, above the speaker's chair that you
00:06:01.300 write about, you know, I'm not sure that that's ever accurate.
00:06:05.360 People just feel like it is. But I want to ask you, you tell a story about a Quebec liberal MP named Eugene Fissett and the liberal whip. So these are two liberal MPs. This is in September 1930. And the second liberal MP, the whip, is Pierre-Francois Casgreen. What happened between them that led to a black eye and a funny heckle from Prime Minister R.B. Bennett?
00:06:32.700 Oh, my God. So, Mr. Fizet, I'm not totally sure how to say his name, but right. He complained about his seat in the chamber and was specifically complaining, apparently, about the office space he had been allocated.
00:06:44.580 And so on the first day that Parliament opened in 1930, he gets into an altercation with the whip and the whip punches him in the eye. And he is depicted in all the newspaper stories as basically sporting a black eye. His glasses go flying in the fracas.
00:06:59.360 There's no evidence that as a result of that particular intervention, his office space changed or his seat location changed.
00:07:07.620 I'm going to doubt that it did.
00:07:09.560 Yeah, no, it's a whole, it's a funny thing to think that that's how you would respond to that kind of complaint.
00:07:15.220 And I should say it didn't stop the political career of the whip, who I think later becomes a lieutenant governor of province.
00:07:21.780 So, and maybe even became speaker, if I'm not mistaken.
00:07:24.800 All that to say, though, the retort is an interesting one, because later we see the
00:07:30.520 prime minister making a reference to the incident.
00:07:34.280 So today is up again complaining about something.
00:07:36.540 And the prime minister basically says, I think we can all understand better now the incident
00:07:39.280 of the other day, which is clearly a reference to him getting a black eye.
00:07:42.780 This is one of those interesting things that Hansard didn't capture.
00:07:46.020 That is the black eye incident.
00:07:47.400 And part of that is we're not quite sure whether they were going to the Senate for the throne
00:07:51.500 speech or just come back from it.
00:07:53.960 But Hansard wouldn't necessarily capture a moment like that.
00:07:57.220 You're not going to see, you know, editor's note member walked over and got punched in the face.
00:08:01.880 And it's the newspaper reporters in the gallery who saw it happen, who bring this story to life.
00:08:05.980 There's interviews with other members.
00:08:07.220 That's how we know that this happened.
00:08:09.120 But certainly if we're talking about how decorum has changed over time, I'm happy to say that no MP has recently been seen in the chamber with a black eye as a result of speaking to another MP, particularly a member of their own caucus.
00:08:19.700 It was described in a newspaper at the time as a fistic encounter on the floor of the Chamber of the House of Commons. So, as you say, were they in session or not, we don't know. But, you know, I've never looked at how Hansard captured Elbowgate, which is when Justin Trudeau got impatient that the Conservatives, so he's newly elected Prime Minister.
00:08:43.540 the um the NDP and the conservatives don't want to get to a particular vote I forget what the vote
00:08:50.960 was but I watched this live and Trudeau gets so fed up with them dilly-dallying that he
00:08:57.420 walks down the through the chamber to where Gord Brown for the conservatives is talking with
00:09:04.680 some New Democrat colleagues. And he grabs Brown by the elbow and drags him to his seat. And while
00:09:14.660 doing so, as he turns, Trudeau elbows the breast of New Democrat Ruth Ellen Brasso. I've never
00:09:21.560 looked at how Hansard captured that fracas, but we do know that it led to a colorful incident for
00:09:27.600 the PM. Yes, I can disappoint you by telling you exactly how Hansard captures it on that particular
00:09:34.560 day. And that is that, you know, the speaker says, call in the members. That's right before a vote.
00:09:39.980 And then we see in the English answer, it says before the taking of the vote, the speaker,
00:09:44.900 I will hear the honorable member on a brief point of order or question of privilege,
00:09:48.060 whatever it is. And then we have the discussion of what happened. So the actual conduct itself
00:09:53.300 doesn't get any sort of specific line in Hansard. It's the people talking about it right after.
00:09:59.320 And that's one of the interesting things about Hansard and heckling and all this stuff. So
00:10:03.800 So now we have a convention, for example, if someone's heckled, but there's no response to it, it doesn't do anything for the debate, the actual text of the heckle won't be recorded.
00:10:12.740 Whereas in the past, you'd often see a lot of these interjections in brackets and whatnot.
00:10:16.720 So it sort of depends on how much impact it has in the debate day.
00:10:20.800 In that particular case, though, you can certainly understand what had happened, given all the discussion that follows and all the various apologies.
00:10:28.120 And so that sort of puts together it.
00:10:29.840 But yeah, it is a funny thing sometimes reading Hansard and think, I must have missed something.
00:10:34.700 You know, what is it that actually happened in there?
00:10:37.820 And there's a story in the book about someone throwing from the gallery something you would not expect, namely their feces.
00:10:45.560 And it just says in the Hansard, basically, and a disturbance occurring or something like that.
00:10:51.600 And then it's a discussion after where even members are not quite saying what it is.
00:10:55.940 I believe the first member refers to it as a, quote, object of attack has been thrown from the gallery.
00:11:00.600 And it's, again, the press reporting that rounds out that, in fact, someone had come in with their own poop and had taken a throw.
00:11:06.380 And it landed, unfortunately, all over a backbencher who had nothing to do with anything the person was concerned about.
00:11:11.440 So there are interesting things that are enhanced and then sometimes not enhanced.
00:11:17.400 So in the book, you talked about a few incidents of fighting.
00:11:22.420 We're not quite like the parliament, where is it, Taiwan, where they get into big fistfights?
00:11:27.380 We're not quite like that.
00:11:29.960 But one MP did tell another, I believe it was a conservative to a liberal, meet me in room 13.
00:11:37.540 I don't even know where room 13 is, and I had my office there for years.
00:11:41.320 So tell me the story about Arthur Bunster and Guillaume Chaval.
00:11:47.680 Right.
00:11:48.160 So Arthur Bunster with a Vancouver MP who is said to be a brewer of beer out west and a brewer of trouble in Ottawa.
00:11:54.440 And he might have been a bit of a belligerent generally.
00:11:57.240 So one day he's giving a speech and there's a lot of noise in the chamber coming from the other side.
00:12:02.180 And by noise, we mean some kind of musical interlude.
00:12:04.980 We're not sure if it's a member attempting to imitate a cat, if there's in fact some kind of squeaking toy that he has.
00:12:11.280 In any event, Mr. Bunster asks for the card of the bugger and is told that it's Guillaume Chevalier Saint-Jacques.
00:12:18.100 And he gives him a note back saying, meet me in room 13.
00:12:22.680 Now, this is in the old notes via the pages.
00:12:25.360 He didn't just stand up and say, meet me in room 13 like that.
00:12:29.000 They sent a note for it.
00:12:30.580 I understand it was a note sent.
00:12:31.700 Yeah.
00:12:31.940 And so we're in the old parliament building pre fire.
00:12:34.620 So and unfortunately, there are no interior pictures of sort of committee rooms from that
00:12:39.300 time.
00:12:39.520 I was hoping I was digging my best in the archives to try to find when we have the chamber
00:12:42.980 from that period, the foyer from that period.
00:12:44.620 But we don't have room 13.
00:12:45.600 In any event, what happens in that room, a little bit of a discrepancy in the reporting, either Mr. Bunster is there with a knife waiting for Mr. Chevelle or just punches start flying or Prime Minister Johnny McDonald is there with some other conservatives and like, oh, they're not going to fight. Let's get out of here.
00:13:00.100 What we know happens at some point is punches start flying. And we know that Mr. Bunster has Mr. Chevelle in a headlock. And to get out of it, Chevelle rips out a portion of Mr. Bunster's beard.
00:13:11.580 We're then told in most reporting that he runs through the commons parading it like a trophy.
00:13:16.760 And so it's sort of the beard pull around Ottawa.
00:13:19.400 Now, Mr. Bunster, many years later, is asked about a patch on his beard.
00:13:23.820 So we know kind of implicitly from that that definitely there was a mark left.
00:13:28.280 And he basically said, no, no, no, I got it back.
00:13:30.320 And he must have had some mattress stuffing that he was parading around the commons.
00:13:34.140 Believe that if you'd like.
00:13:35.840 But yes, we have this great evidence of a full on fight between the two.
00:13:40.680 involving a beard ripping.
00:13:44.940 It's fascinating to hear these stories
00:13:48.940 because, you know, at one point you reference
00:13:53.180 how in Nova Scotia, when, as Nova Scotia was considering
00:13:57.180 whether to join Confederation,
00:13:59.800 there were people warning,
00:14:02.980 no, you don't want to join them.
00:14:05.300 All they do is they have fistfights all day
00:14:07.520 and they're all drunk.
00:14:08.660 Was there a lot of drinking and fistfighting in pre-Confederation parliaments in upper and lower Canada?
00:14:17.100 Yes, this is a fun history for a number of reasons.
00:14:20.540 But yes, we know that the drinking was rampant.
00:14:24.340 Fistfights, we have reports of here and there.
00:14:26.100 I mean, there's a great article on the early days in Ontario where actually a problem was members getting up to speak and dying mid-speech,
00:14:33.900 which I understand the Hansard in one case just says, and the member thereupon expiring.
00:14:38.660 moves on to the next so you know very very dry way to uh to report that but yes they they were
00:14:44.840 drinking um and so the actual um nova scotia incident you're you're mentioning comes days
00:14:49.320 after reports that basically um members were sort of throwing pamphlets and books that one guy they
00:14:55.720 wanted to stop talking um and obviously alcohol was suggested to be a part of that but the antics
00:15:02.560 in those early early days were quite something they used to have a practice of putting um little
00:15:07.480 paper hats on members who were sleeping. And then it would be this big game of making as much noise
00:15:12.780 when the person would finish speaking to sort of see where the hat would fall when the sleeping
00:15:17.360 member was awoken by all the ruckus in the chamber. So very, you know, schoolboy, but
00:15:23.080 nonetheless, you know, quite fun. We do have some some more grave, I think, disorder because of
00:15:30.300 drinking, including a member who walks in and sort of waving his cane around and threatening
00:15:34.360 to fight everybody, and we're told that he's removed by the attendants. We also have a story
00:15:40.800 that's maybe a bit on the lighter side of a member who mid-speech stopped his speech. And from sort of
00:15:46.200 the read of it, you would seem that he went to get a glass of water. We're told what actually
00:15:50.740 happened was someone subbed out his water glass for something a little bit stronger, and this
00:15:54.520 member sort of in the middle of his oration didn't know. And so he reached down and took a glass of
00:15:58.920 a whiskey instead, and then was quickly in a panic trying to get it out and to have some water.
00:16:04.620 Unfortunately, by giving up his speaking slot, he wasn't able to resume, and the speaker had
00:16:07.600 very, very little sympathy. What I like about that story, though, is if you think about the chamber,
00:16:12.120 someone coming from across the chamber would be very obvious and in the line of sight. So I'm
00:16:16.260 thinking it was someone sitting near him. So probably someone in his own caucus thwarted his
00:16:21.040 speech. But we're told that the entire house was in stitches when that happened.
00:16:27.040 There's all kinds of legends about
00:16:28.920 drinking and debauchery on the Hill. Is it true that they used to have both a bar and a jail
00:16:36.660 in the House of Commons? So the bar is definitely true. We have a lot of evidence of the bar under
00:16:44.840 center block. And at the time, the Senate had a restaurant and wine room. And so there were all
00:16:49.420 these shenanigans about trying to portray something publicly, particularly during prohibition about
00:16:54.480 apartment being dry when in fact that wasn't really the case. In one era what they did was
00:16:59.800 made the rule that you couldn't have a drink while standing and therefore they could say it
00:17:04.840 was a restaurant that they had and not a bar because you couldn't be served out all standing
00:17:08.940 up. But yes we are told that it was quite the place and in fact for many years the big problem
00:17:13.960 was Ottawa locals going up to the hill because the bar there was open later than anywhere else
00:17:19.320 in the city because they thought the city rules didn't apply for them and members had all sorts
00:17:23.660 of complaints about the strangers coming in and sometimes then roaming the hall and taking things
00:17:28.060 out of members' offices. So it was a wild time when the bar existed. And there's various times
00:17:35.420 when the speaker says, oh, it's closed, or they've shifted things around. But we have enough accounts
00:17:39.140 to understand that they basically just went downstairs and drank their faces off and then
00:17:42.820 would occasionally come back to vote. In terms of the jail, though, this is one of the more,
00:17:47.840 I don't know, kind of rumors that we would like to believe, but we have no evidence of a jail cell
00:17:54.000 in the old parliament building. It's not on the floor plans that we had. We don't have anything
00:17:59.880 from the Sergeant at Arms saying that it was used in the jail. In fact, the rare time that we've had
00:18:05.480 somebody in custody, the Sergeant at Arms said, oh, I just took them to my own office and sort
00:18:09.920 of that doubled as a jail. It is true that there was a jail cell in the UK, that the parliaments
00:18:15.540 in Victoria actually had a room that was designed as a jail cell. They never had any
00:18:20.220 prisoner there. And if you go to the Parliament in Melbourne, Australia, there is also what was
00:18:25.140 once a jail cell. But it's not true to say that we had one. We had rooms that were used for that
00:18:30.420 purpose, of course, when we had someone in custody, but they were just a sergeant-at-arms office.
00:18:35.540 You open, or towards the beginning of the book at least, you're writing about Sir John A.
00:18:42.280 mcdonald and a famous incident that may not be true like a lot of the things that we hear
00:18:48.200 and and it's about him being in the middle of a speech or a debate accounts vary and he throws
00:18:56.960 up in the middle of it but then quickly recovers tell us about that story but also speak to the
00:19:02.800 the overall issue that i think mcdonald's drinking which at one point was apparently
00:19:08.500 bad. And then he became quite sober. He had lost his wife. He had lost a lot of things when he had
00:19:14.760 his dark period. But is McDonald's drinking overall exaggerated in folklore?
00:19:22.560 Gosh. OK, so to start with the story, we have this tale that basically McDonald throws up and
00:19:29.280 some other person says, you know, how can you support this drunk either in office or this guy?
00:19:33.800 You know, I can't believe you're going to let this guy. And McDonald says, well, it's not the drink.
00:19:36.800 It's the other guy's policies that make me sick to my stomach.
00:19:39.180 Or whenever I see his face, I can't resist the urge to vomit.
00:19:41.960 Some sort of variation on that theme.
00:19:43.480 And we're told that the crowd at the time went wild and that thing swung in McDonald's
00:19:48.080 favor.
00:19:48.780 And so the problem with this is we're told either it's various electoral contexts that
00:19:53.200 it happens or sometimes told that, in fact, it was in the House of Commons that this happened.
00:19:57.220 All roads on that story lead to an 1894 biography where the guy writing it says, I was working
00:20:04.100 on a book on Sir John A.'s life, but he just died. And my publisher says, you have five weeks to
00:20:08.100 finish it. And so I did the best I could. And in that, we have no sort of evidence that this
00:20:14.260 particular thing happened the way we'd like to believe it happened. And we have newspaper
00:20:18.780 accounts of all these different rallies at which John A. appeared. We obviously have our hands
00:20:22.600 heard in parliamentary borders. And I cannot find anywhere the line, you know, he threw up
00:20:27.920 in such a public way or that this was the particular retort. And I did reach out to
00:20:32.820 Parks Canada people running the Johnny McDonald site at Bellevue House in Kingston. They're like,
00:20:37.400 yeah, there's a lot of rumors. We have no evidence of this either. So in terms of his drinking,
00:20:42.220 we do know it was a problem. We understand at one point even there was a sort of the
00:20:45.740 Fenian raids happening and he was just so drunk he couldn't give any sort of direction on what to
00:20:50.960 have happen for quite some time. He was out of contact, I think, with some of the way it was
00:20:56.200 phrased at the time. There's a lot of interesting press reporting around it. That said, I think the
00:21:00.820 issue is that george brown who was his primary opponent in many of the elections was a teetotaler
00:21:05.280 and so the contrast between the two was seized on by the press there's a lot of editorial cartoons
00:21:10.820 about johnny mcdonald's drinking in fact in some he is sort of depicted as the beer bottle
00:21:15.120 just to illustrate how much he drank would any of those appear in george brown's globe and mail
00:21:20.800 yes exactly and this is part of the challenge right even looking in old newspapers um you know
00:21:28.280 there was a time when they were quite clearly partisan organs. And so even trying to reconcile
00:21:33.260 reports. So going back to the issue of fistfights, sometimes you read two stories on the same fistfight
00:21:38.600 and depending on the political allegiance of the newspaper, you determine that the victor
00:21:42.060 was a different person. And so it makes it very difficult to reconcile. And I'd say that issue
00:21:47.220 is actually particularly pronounced if it's an Anglophone and Francophone. Sometimes the French
00:21:51.560 press reports quite favorably on the Francophone. The English does its side as well. So all that to
00:21:56.820 say, I mean, we know that John, sorry, we know that Johnny MacDonald loved the bottle. It does
00:22:01.520 seem that at points it's exaggerated in certain media outlets, but the story of him sort of
00:22:07.460 vomiting mid-speech and having this great turn, we just don't have any evidence that that happened.
00:22:12.200 So we'd like to believe it. I mean, it still comes up in papers to this day. And I, every time I read
00:22:17.120 it, sort of shake my head and think, did you bother to fact check that? Where did you get it
00:22:20.840 from? But I think much like the two sword length thing, it's just, we've heard the story so much
00:22:25.520 and you can find it so many places.
00:22:27.300 And we just like to believe it's true.
00:22:29.240 So we repeat it without questioning it.
00:22:31.800 All right.
00:22:32.040 We need to take a quick break.
00:22:33.480 But when we come back, we'll talk about, well,
00:22:35.900 one man who became prime minister due to fisticuffs
00:22:39.200 and putting a salmon in your trousers.
00:22:42.460 That's not a euphemism.
00:22:43.860 Back in moments.
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00:24:46.720 So much is happening in politics right now.
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00:25:20.420 I'm going to recommend the book once again, Charlie,
00:25:23.180 because it is the type of book you can just leave on your coffee table.
00:25:26.500 And if you've got people interested, or, you know, the bathroom,
00:25:29.460 some people still do that.
00:25:31.380 You know, it's the type of thing that you can pick up
00:25:34.120 and just read a quick tidbit, and it's fun and entertaining.
00:25:38.280 So I'm recommending this for politicals.
00:25:40.600 Yeah, look, Christmas is coming.
00:25:41.960 and lots of books given as gifts at Christmas.
00:25:46.440 But let's talk about the PM that became Prime Minister
00:25:49.900 by beating up an Aboriginal man, Justin Trudeau.
00:25:53.660 You talk a little bit about the, what'd you call it,
00:25:56.880 the Thrilla on the Hilla?
00:25:59.720 Oh, gosh.
00:26:00.960 I was there for an awful lot of that boxing match
00:26:02.620 between Justin Trudeau and Patrick Brazzo.
00:26:04.700 It was the ringside play-by-play guy for the TV broadcast.
00:26:09.060 Oh, really?
00:26:09.700 Maybe we used that. I can't remember.
00:26:11.960 You know, I found that in press reporting. And I'll just say there's some pictures in the book, about 40 in total. And when I did the first draft to the publisher, I had about 110 and most of them fell away for copyright reasons. But there was one particular photo from the weigh in where I believe it's Mr. Brezzo and basically a speedo and sort of Justin Trudeau sort of pointing in that general direction with a shocked expression.
00:26:35.280 And I thought, oh, this is the picture I want. But I will just say, you know, I'll give a plug to Post Media because I think it was actually their photo. And yeah, so the battle there was for charity. It was a boxing match. And Mr. Trudeau took it, I think, in the, I want to say, third round. But you did the play-by-play, so you could tell me better.
00:26:53.960 But it's not the only time we've seen members pick up boxing gloves.
00:26:59.480 You know, there were members threatening to fight all throughout Canadian history.
00:27:04.180 We have some great examples of people saying, take it outside in the lobby.
00:27:07.720 And then either the sergeant at arms breaking it up or members finally getting cooler senses when other members sort of intervened and pulled them away.
00:27:15.900 But yes, so it's a well-celebrated moment where Justin Trudeau takes on Patrick Brazot.
00:27:24.040 And when Justin Trudeau stepped down as being PM, Brazot tweeted that he basically would
00:27:28.380 you thought it would be time for a rematch again for charity.
00:27:31.600 To my knowledge, that hasn't happened.
00:27:34.140 You know, my money is on if it does happen.
00:27:35.980 I think they should have Katy Perry doing the anthem.
00:27:37.700 Just, you know, really make this a full spectator event.
00:27:40.520 They're going to do it.
00:27:41.400 I can tell you that for the now defunct Sun News Network, that was our highest rated show ever because we got the rights.
00:27:51.040 Yes, we helped turn it into the spectacle that it was.
00:27:54.140 We got the rights and it was a massive audience and bars were showing it and people were gathering to watch.
00:28:02.840 Not something you would normally think of, but it helped propel Trudeau into the prime minister's office.
00:28:09.380 Let's talk about fish in your trousers.
00:28:14.280 Pants, for people that don't remember what the word trousers means.
00:28:18.220 October 16th, 1985, Hansard has an editor's note that says,
00:28:23.660 Whereupon Mr. Fulton crossed the floor and placed a salmon on the prime minister's desk.
00:28:31.840 An all-time classic in Hansard, I have to say.
00:28:34.640 Sometimes you just get a line and you're like, all right, there we go, this happened.
00:28:38.680 So I've seen props over the years.
00:28:43.220 I've never seen a fish pulled out.
00:28:46.000 And especially, you did the digging, and it looks like he smuggled the 12-pound salmon in his pants?
00:28:56.080 Yeah.
00:28:56.340 That's a big salmon.
00:28:58.100 Have you seen the video?
00:28:59.640 If not, I will send it to you.
00:29:01.380 It is a good one.
00:29:02.780 And so you see him say, you know, why should it be illegal to possess?
00:29:05.320 And you hear this sort of metal click as he pulls sort of the fish from basically a hook on a rope.
00:29:10.720 And it's really able to possess salmon.
00:29:12.320 And funnily enough, as sort of you hear the explanation in the chamber, you clearly hear someone say, holy mackerel, which I thought was funny because it's a salmon.
00:29:19.040 But in any event, I digress.
00:29:21.160 That's a good pun.
00:29:22.640 Right.
00:29:22.940 And then he walks across the chamber.
00:29:24.980 And unfortunately, the camera then cuts to the speaker.
00:29:27.040 So we don't see the exact sequence of events.
00:29:29.080 But we're told basically he waves it in the government house leader's face and then puts it down the prime minister's desk.
00:29:33.640 Now, I'm saying puts it there.
00:29:35.320 because some newspapers say, you know, throws, slaps, hits. But the degree of force with which
00:29:42.660 it hits the prime minister's desk, I don't know, and the video doesn't tell us. But the reason
00:29:47.560 behind it, and we should say there is a reason, is that there was a salmonoid enhancement project.
00:29:52.720 So the government did all these modifications on salmon, and it was very successful. The problem
00:29:56.700 is they couldn't let the salmon go upstream and be caught because it would affect ecosystem things.
00:30:01.280 So he was upset because a lot of fishers in his constituency couldn't make as much money as they would have been able to have these other salmon been released.
00:30:09.500 And so he'd asked a few questions and was pestering the government and got nowhere and I think decided, OK, I need to be dramatic and actually bring the fish in.
00:30:18.220 We're told that at least he replaced the blotter on the prime minister's desk.
00:30:21.700 And I probably should note that the prime minister was absent that day, attending a Commonwealth conference in the Caribbean.
00:30:26.700 So he didn't get the full, you know, wet and blotied fish.
00:30:29.980 That would be the Commonwealth Conference, I believe, where Brian Mulroney convinced the other heads of state to push hard against apartheid in South Africa. So he was doing something good while he missed the salmon.
00:30:43.700 Yes, yes. And we're told he has a salmon back in time for a press conference in the foyer. And just because I'm a nerd and like these things, there's conflicting reports on whether it was the clerk or page who removed a fish.
00:30:54.740 But I have to imagine that in terms of your, you know, seedy responsibilities, taking out
00:30:58.900 a fresh fish from the chamber has to be somewhere under other duties as required.
00:31:03.860 But yes, we've seen plenty of props used over the years.
00:31:07.240 I just really like the fish for that sort of visual you get, as well as the awkwardness
00:31:12.220 of that hand-served intervention to tell us that, in fact, you cross the floor carrying
00:31:16.080 a salmon.
00:31:17.580 What's your favorite story from the book, from all the crazy things that you've looked
00:31:22.540 into?
00:31:22.800 Which one is your favorite?
00:31:25.220 So the one I enjoy talking about the most is the parliamentary genital exam.
00:31:29.020 And that is mostly because when you say that phrase, people just look at you like you're crazy.
00:31:32.560 And so it lets you talk about an interesting time in Canadian history when if you wanted a divorce, you had to go to parliament.
00:31:39.620 And so you would go with a private bill petition and you had to pay money and you'd hang it on the door of the Senate.
00:31:45.660 And believe it or not, parliamentary divorce lasted until 1969 in some spots of Canada.
00:31:50.680 And for a while, it was the bulk of the Senate's workload.
00:31:52.920 But the year of this story is 1888, when Mary Matilda White of Port Dover, Ontario, comes to Parliament for a divorce.
00:31:59.520 And unlike everyone who'd been before her who said it's adultery and here's what he did, basically, she says, in fact, he has impotence and he's unable to consummate the relationship.
00:32:09.620 And so the question for the Standing Committee on Divorce is, what do we do?
00:32:12.620 In the cases that involved adultery, they would hear evidence.
00:32:15.380 So witnesses would come forward and say things like, I saw him leaving her house, you know, at two in the morning with his hat off his head in the carriage.
00:32:21.260 And you wonder, well, why are you staring at her house at two in the morning? But that's a whole other story. And in fact, there was fraud at the time. And some people went to jail for basically trying to collude to convince Parliament to grant a divorce.
00:32:30.680 So the committee decides, well, we need evidence of the particular allegation that he's never been able to consummate this relationship because of some, I believe the phrase she uses is frigidity or malformation of the parts, end quote.
00:32:44.040 And so we understand that the senators decide that two senators who have medical degrees should take a look.
00:32:51.540 And they indeed examine the man.
00:32:53.440 This is where we get another twist in the story is that we're told by press reporting that the man is a quote unquote dwarf, to use the word from the time.
00:32:59.880 So if you don't have dwarf genital exam on your primary bingo card, there you go.
00:33:03.900 And he says basically, yeah.
00:33:06.040 And so he basically says, listen, it's in working order.
00:33:08.820 May not be the scale you're used to, but it's fine.
00:33:11.380 The problem is her.
00:33:12.020 This is where the story takes a turn because we understand that they look at her and decide that her petition is not proven. So if you're sort of trying to think between the lines, basically, if she's alleging her marriage has never been consummated, they expect her to look a certain way, which she did not.
00:33:27.700 I should, again, stress this is 1888 and we have very different ideas now about how you might test virginity and whatnot.
00:33:33.900 And so they basically say, well, you're not getting your divorce.
00:33:36.820 You know, go home back to the guy that now every paper in the country has reported on your allegations.
00:33:42.760 The story doesn't end there in two respects.
00:33:44.660 The first is that there's a huge debate in the Senate about printing the evidence because apparently it leaks into the hands of the public and is seen in the hands of a boy of only 12 summers.
00:33:53.200 And so senators are upset and worried about being charged with obscenity and just what this means that, you know, should the clerk, whoever leaked it, be charged with a fence?
00:34:02.060 And there's a great Senate debate on just the sort of you can read through the squeamishness that they all have about the topic.
00:34:09.000 And ultimately, they pass a motion to burn the remaining evidence.
00:34:12.080 So we unfortunately don't have a copy of it other than the little bits that are in press reporting.
00:34:17.000 And we know, unfortunately, that anything that would have remained behind would be lost in the fire of 1916.
00:34:22.300 But the story doesn't end there.
00:34:23.460 There's a little coda to it that happens in a local paper where we're basically told that the guy who helped pay for her petition might have been seeing her on the side.
00:34:32.200 And we know that at one point he shows up on her front step and shoots the husband in the face.
00:34:35.360 So a lot was happening in 1888.
00:34:38.320 But for my purposes, it is the parliamentary genital exam that I think we would just all like to pretend didn't happen and luckily has not been repeated as far as anyone knows.
00:34:49.840 oh man shot him in the face um there's not a lot of sexy scandals in canadian politics though
00:34:58.520 um there's been accusations and you write about this i was there for it that a certain male
00:35:06.020 member of parliament was watching pornography um while in the house and he denied it and explained
00:35:13.660 And no, I was showing photos of me and my girlfriend on vacation at the beach.
00:35:19.980 Yeah.
00:35:20.880 But there was the Munzinger affair.
00:35:23.900 Is that really Canada's only sex scandal involving members of parliament in a tawdry way, you might say?
00:35:35.240 I'm going to say that's the only one that we really know about.
00:35:39.260 I'm sure there's other stories.
00:35:40.820 There's been an awful lot of more hanky-panky going on on Parliament Hill than we know about.
00:35:46.140 But the Munzinger Affair, this is a woman from West Germany suspected of being a KGB agent.
00:35:52.640 And she slept with several of Diefenbaker's cabinet ministers.
00:35:57.960 Right. So we know one for sure, Associate Defense Minister Pierre Savenny.
00:36:02.220 And there's discussion of others, perhaps George Heese.
00:36:05.080 in the days where the scandal broke, it really wasn't clear just how much of the cabinet had
00:36:10.580 been compromised. And it seems that this was well known in Ottawa for a bit between sort of the two
00:36:16.200 parties, and then it breaks loose in question period with sort of an errant mention of her name.
00:36:21.360 But years later, it didn't break when it was happening. It broke when it was all done.
00:36:26.820 No, this is something I like is sort of the Canadian politeness, I think. You know,
00:36:30.480 we might all know someone is having some kind of affair or something, and yet we're like, well,
00:36:35.840 it's not really, you know, a matter for the public. We're still, you know, in a way that I
00:36:40.140 think if it happened in the U.S., it would be out in the open right away. But all that to say, so
00:36:45.480 yes, we have then a commission of inquiry that looks into all these sorts of things to figure
00:36:51.260 out who knew what when. Were any members compromised further? Did information get
00:36:56.920 back to the Soviets. I mean, it's a fascinating story, in part just for all the bizarre little
00:37:04.200 twists and turns. So for example, when the member makes the first allusion to it in question period,
00:37:08.000 he gets the name wrong. And that sends journalists down rabbit holes, and they're told this woman
00:37:12.000 dies. Then the Toronto Star happens to track her down in Germany and has a whole interview with her
00:37:17.120 saying, you know, in fact, she's alive. And here you go. Years later, there's a scandal when CBC
00:37:21.620 interviews her for her reflections on it all, in which she basically says, look, I was a young
00:37:26.900 girl. I like to go to parties. I met some men in politics, but it's not at all as bad as they all
00:37:32.640 make it out to be. But certainly it was a wild scandal, particularly in the early days where it
00:37:37.880 was suggested that, in fact, she'd had relations with multiple members of the cabinet. And so,
00:37:43.900 yeah, I think it's obligatory in Canadian Prime Minister that you talk about that particular
00:37:47.980 scandal. But certainly there are others involving people not necessarily being faithful. But I think
00:37:56.260 in terms of like a real, real sex scandal, the fact that it involves sex and spying is what I
00:38:00.800 think tips that one in our favor of being interesting. The only recent one I can think
00:38:04.640 of is Maxime Bernier left his briefing binder at the home of his girlfriend who had previously
00:38:10.460 dated some bikers. Yeah, that's the Julie Cuiard issue that that pales in comparison to, well,
00:38:18.220 she might be a KGB spy. I just to say my Julie Cuiard story, this is just a very random aside
00:38:23.720 just because I'm on the hill and I a random claim to fame I was at the throne speech and I had a
00:38:29.020 friend with me who jokingly we said let's see who can get more pictures with more cabinet ministers
00:38:33.960 we thought it would just be a funny thing to do you know when you're young on the hill or whatever
00:38:36.680 and so I saw Mr. Bernier and I said oh can we take a picture and he says oh yeah yeah and basically
00:38:41.440 beckons this person over and I had no idea who she was uh and so I have a selfie with Maxine
00:38:47.120 Bernier and then months later this story breaks and I think I posted on Facebook and I'm like do
00:38:52.680 you realize who you're in this photo with? And anyhow, just to say it's very random life on the
00:38:58.200 hill. But that was that certainly took a lot of headlines for the fact that you might have left
00:39:04.340 some some documents, the security risks of which I think we still don't quite know. It didn't seem
00:39:09.560 like they were that, you know, like they might have been classified one thing, but whether they
00:39:14.000 were really that important, I don't think we have clarity on. But yeah, we don't get many good sex
00:39:18.040 scandals, I have to say. Not that I'm asking politicians to go out of their way to have them
00:39:21.720 Just, you know, if I want to write a second edition, I need fodder for it.
00:39:26.060 You mentioned Daryl Stinson and reminded me of some interesting stories.
00:39:31.980 He has since passed, former MP.
00:39:35.040 But when he was leaving Parliament, he made a comment about cigarettes.
00:39:40.460 Tell us that story.
00:39:41.460 What was he getting at there?
00:39:43.960 Well, so at the time, parliamentarians like to smoke.
00:39:48.620 I mean, let's just be blunt about it.
00:39:49.820 There's plenty of pictures of MPs, you know, enjoying a little puff outside center block.
00:39:54.940 And as societal attitudes on smoking changed, he was in the camp of let's be honest about what you're doing.
00:40:01.880 And so he was talking about how often when journalists would come to take pictures, other members would have him missmokes.
00:40:06.960 And he says that he has basically photos of him with like 10 cigs in his hands because he's holding them for other members.
00:40:13.020 And he's like, if you're lying about that, what else are you lying about with his shot at other MPs?
00:40:18.140 The end of the smoking era on the Hill is a really interesting one. The book talks about MP Lynn McDonald, who was allergic to cigarette smoke and sort of made it her life's mission to make the Hill smoke free. And we're told this involves a lot of smashing of ashtrays and sort of getting up in other members' faces and being belligerent.
00:40:34.140 They used to smoke in the chamber, didn't they?
00:40:36.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:40:37.500 And in fact, there's even Jean-Luc-Litain Cartier in the earliest days gets up on a point of order and says, if members wouldn't mind, please don't smoke in the chamber and just go to the smoking room.
00:40:48.880 And they had a smoking room in Parliament.
00:40:50.940 There's a pencil sketch in the book that we have from an old archive because it was notorious, sort of the backroom deals happening in this smoke-filled space.
00:41:02.200 And the senators, for their part, I should say, had this great snuff box that sat on the clerk's table and were told that it was tradition basically before you gave a speech to go up and smoke a little bit and basically cough it out before you got to your oration.
00:41:15.520 um yeah so Simpson's point was basically you know if you're going to be honest about uh you should
00:41:21.320 be honest about your smoking habit if in fact you have one um I should say we also even have
00:41:26.340 some great stories from MPs of days when they used to send the pages to get them smoked from
00:41:31.620 the cigarette vending machine in the cafeteria um just to really place that one in time and
00:41:37.000 certainly we can we can all imagine the shenanigans going on in that era that was before my day I also
00:41:43.320 missed out on what was known as the blind pig, which after they got rid of the bar in the House
00:41:50.180 of Commons, people would come to the hot room, which is where a lot of journalists had desks.
00:41:56.140 If you didn't have your own full bureau on the outside, you had a desk in the hot room like I
00:42:00.320 did for many years. And just prior to me getting there, they got rid of the blind pig, which was
00:42:06.080 you could go in and there was a vending machine for beer. And you could also buy those little
00:42:10.920 airplane bottles of hard liquor. And in fact, there was the tube system for sending messages
00:42:19.000 and they could ship them across under the ground, across to the prime minister's office and civil
00:42:24.740 servants or politicians would sometimes send the money in one tube with a note of what they wanted
00:42:29.760 and it would go back in the other tube. I have heard so many great stories about the blind pig
00:42:35.900 And there's fascinating press reporting on it. And it's suggested in some that, in fact, this was the speaker's way of resolving the impasse where members wanted booze on the hill but couldn't be seen to sort of have it.
00:42:48.320 And so the solution was, well, let's put it in the press gallery. And we have some great interviews with former heads of the press gallery talking about just how much beer they would purchase.
00:42:56.960 I think once of those 80 cases a month at one point they would go through. And so, yeah, it's a it's a fascinating history.
00:43:05.200 if he was in um in center block on a saturday night and there were people in um in the hot
00:43:14.820 room he would drop by for a beer and watch hockey night in canada there you go i mean it's there's
00:43:21.920 so many untold stories of the hill i have to be honest so one of the constraints on this book
00:43:26.840 was i wanted to use things which are publicly sourced um and then in the process of telling
00:43:31.140 people you're writing this they tell you all these other stories that have no you know uh
00:43:35.540 public facing element but the shenanigans that people got up to uh when they were when they
00:43:41.420 were drunk uh is is the legend um i will tell you by the way one of my favorite stories it's not in
00:43:46.560 the book and not alcohol based but just one of the cleanest pranks i've ever heard of involves
00:43:50.660 a member who had an identical twin brother and uh one day the identical twin comes to ottawa to
00:43:56.760 surprise his brother just sort of a friendly family thing and immediately the press starts
00:44:00.720 hounding him and asking him all these questions he's like no it's not me it's not me and i gather
00:44:04.800 he sort of shows the driver's license and they're like oh we didn't know you know he had an identical
00:44:08.500 twin brother and like yeah yeah and the journalists agree listen how about we pull a little prank on
00:44:13.820 him we'll tell him you're holding a press conference in center block and sort of we'll
00:44:18.180 send a page in to say hey your brother's pretending to be you and doing a press conference so uh
00:44:23.160 they're like yeah yeah so they get a bunch of their friends together they're in center block
00:44:25.620 in the rotunda and the identical twins sort of hang around they send the note in this poor page
00:44:30.020 goes in the note, you know, your brother's pretending to be you giving a press conference.
00:44:33.620 And as we're told, you could just hear the running as this member is leaping over people
00:44:39.260 to get to center block. And as soon as sort of there's wind of it, the identical twin who's in
00:44:44.020 front of the press starts spouting off something wild. You know, that's why we're going to colonize
00:44:48.020 Mars and put the opposition there, whatever it is. And we're basically told the MP tackles his
00:44:52.600 brother, just full on jumps on him and it starts wringing his neck and then realizes he's in front
00:44:58.820 of a whole bunch of journalists who are about to photograph him choking a constituent and sort of
00:45:02.620 pulls back. And we're told the press uproariously laughed at this prank. And I just love it for how
00:45:08.980 clean it is. And the reason it's not in the book is just because it's not publicly sourced,
00:45:13.260 but I know it happened. I can tell you why I know it happened. The MP told me. So I can tell you,
00:45:18.680 I have it on really good authority. But I just love that kind of tale that we just otherwise
00:45:25.880 wouldn't know. Let's end on on a positive note. It's not all fisticuffs. I mentioned Daryl Stinson
00:45:32.380 a moment ago with that so many cigarettes in his hand story. He ended up needing cancer treatment.
00:45:39.540 And in 2005, when it was Paul Martin's minority government, things were very tense and he could
00:45:47.500 have cast a deciding vote, but he couldn't be at the House. He could not be in the chamber due to
00:45:53.880 his cancer treatment. The liberals actually pulled someone for that, didn't they?
00:45:59.220 Yeah. You're catching me sweat off guard because I can't remember the name of the person, but
00:46:02.660 we have a lot of great stories of collaboration and compromise. I mean,
00:46:07.220 one story that I'm fond of telling is actually during World War I, there was an MP who was a
00:46:11.580 prisoner of war. He just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and was taken to
00:46:15.920 basically a German prison. And it happened that there was an election during that period and all
00:46:21.460 the other parties agreed not to stand anybody against him. So he won by acclamation as sort
00:46:26.280 of solidarity from MPs. We have a lot of great tales like that throughout our history of sort
00:46:31.380 of the humanity of MPs helping each other out. And, you know, while the book was focused on the
00:46:36.440 frivolous and sort of ridiculous or weird stuff. But they're fun stories. Yeah. But it's not to
00:46:42.700 diminish the fact that they are they're human. And in that you have the full range from the
00:46:49.700 serious to the very silly. And there's some beautiful poignant moments in Canadian parliamentary
00:46:53.300 history as well that go under the radar sometimes. And yeah, so, you know, agreeing to pull somebody
00:46:59.120 to help in recognition of someone's medical treatment. I mean, that just speaks to sort of
00:47:03.340 the integrity that parliamentarians can have, even though I realized I focused on some of the moments
00:47:07.800 where that might the integrity might not be where we quite want it to be. All right. Again, can't
00:47:12.440 recommend the book enough on parliamentary tales from Canada's colorful parliamentary past. The
00:47:17.120 author, Charlie Feldman. Charlie, thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Full Comment is a post-media
00:47:22.280 podcast. My name's Brian Lilly, your host. This episode was produced by Andre Proulx. Theme music
00:47:26.860 by Bryce Hall. Kevin Libin is the executive producer. Please make sure you hit subscribe,
00:47:31.860 share this on social media, tell your friends about us. Thanks for listening. Until next time,
00:47:35.900 I'm Brian Lilly.
00:47:36.940 there were so many missed opportunities to catch this before the devastating thing happened
00:47:48.120 a third of them we found literally in the phone book these people were not afraid they knew that
00:47:54.720 nobody was effectively hunting them they knew they had escaped justice that they were going to die in
00:48:00.500 their beds when i give talks at law schools is that the charter ultimately is empowering a
00:48:04.560 minority and it's empowering a minority that's a guild across the country and it's a fairly elite
00:48:08.900 guild and the guild is lawyers families who were split by referendum and brothers and sisters who
00:48:15.540 never talked to each other for years after the referendum because they were so angry at each
00:48:19.780 other because of the emotions on both sides the reason he was assassinated was not because he was
00:48:25.680 trying to put a satellite into space but because the gun that he was creating had other applications
00:48:33.600 that made him and the gun very dangerous.
00:48:37.880 It's finally here.
00:48:39.440 A new season of Canada Did What?
00:48:41.720 Host media podcast that revisits
00:48:43.460 the big Canadian political events
00:48:45.440 you might think you remember
00:48:47.100 and tells you the real story you never knew.
00:48:50.260 I'm Tristan Hopper.
00:48:51.540 The voices you just heard
00:48:53.100 are from our brand new season two.
00:48:55.480 We will unpack some of the pivotal moments
00:48:57.500 that helped define our country,
00:48:59.180 often without a vote,
00:49:00.480 usually without a plan,
00:49:01.500 and sometimes without anyone admitting what they'd done.
00:49:05.880 We'll find out how Canada became a welcoming paradise
00:49:08.760 for untold numbers of Nazi war criminals after the Second World War.
00:49:13.280 We let them build monuments to their wartime exploits
00:49:16.040 and even ended up honoring a Nazi fighter in the House of Commons.
00:49:20.100 And I'm sorry to say that none of that happened by accident.
00:49:23.640 We'll bring you the little-known story of a troubled Canadian rocket scientist
00:49:27.500 who turned to a sinister life of selling giant guns to terrible people.
00:49:32.940 And if that sounds like a spy novel, it ends like one too.
00:49:36.320 You'll hear the behind-the-scenes story of Quebec's attempted secession from Canada
00:49:40.120 and how very close we came to a political crisis
00:49:43.380 that would have made Brexit look like a picnic.
00:49:46.540 You'll hear about how the much-celebrated Charter of Rights and Freedoms
00:49:50.400 turned into something its creators never wanted
00:49:53.200 and how many of the most extravagant warnings about the document
00:49:56.760 were all quickly proven true.
00:49:59.380 And you'll even hear about how authorities bungled multiple chances
00:50:03.000 to stop the deadliest terrorist attack in our country's history
00:50:05.960 and then proceeded to pretend it never happened.
00:50:09.460 These aren't dusty history lessons.
00:50:11.600 They're stories about power, ambition, madness,
00:50:14.260 and the things about Canada that a lot of people would rather ignore.
00:50:18.380 But not you!
00:50:19.740 You won't want to miss an episode.
00:50:21.660 Subscribe to make sure you get all of Season 2 starting March 2026
00:50:25.660 anywhere you get your podcasts.