An ICU Doctor explains mistakes we've made (and still make) with COVID
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Summary
Our guest today is an ICU doctor who has had a front row seat for what's been going on at ground zero during the COID pandemic. Dr. Kwadro Kamaratang is a critical care physician who has been treating COID patients at hospitals in Ottawa where he is also an assistant professor at the University of Ottawa and host of the Solving Healthcare Podcast.
Transcript
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Welcome to the latest episode of Full Comet. Our guest today is an ICU doctor who has had
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a front row seat for what's really been going on at ground zero during this pandemic, and
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we have a lot to talk about. Is the healthcare system in Canada still in crisis? What did
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we get wrong? What are we getting wrong still? And did we really need all of these restrictions
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on our lives, some of which are still in place? One of the best voices in Canada to answer
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these questions is Dr. Kwadro Kamaratang. He's a critical care physician who has been treating
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COVID patients at hospitals in Ottawa, where he is also an assistant professor at the University
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of Ottawa and host of the Solving Healthcare podcast. Dr. K, hello, welcome. Wow, Anthony,
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you make me feel special. You are special. We're really glad to have you on here. Thanks so much
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for joining us. Thanks for having me. And I really want to get your insight because you have views
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on restrictions, you have advice to offer Canadians on really how to think about this time right now,
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how to proceed. And you've also got on the ground experience, pretty much, you know, from day one
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of this pandemic starting in the hospitals in our country. And I'll definitely want to go back and
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get your thoughts on some things that were happening earlier in previous waves. But to just sort of jump
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into the moment right now, here we are, it's pretty much summer commencing in Canada. What's the current
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situation right now? I mean, are we right to be optimistic? What do you see is the urgent issues right
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now? Yeah, I mean, I got to be honest with you, Anthony, like there is a lot of reasons for
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optimism. Like I, I have, as you alluded to, been part of this pandemic through all waves. And the
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third one obviously hit us the hardest. And it was pretty intense. Like we were seeing that locally in
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Ottawa numbers that we haven't seen before, we were seeing a significant amount of transfers from the
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GTA. We did see younger patients come through, which was, you know, to, to many of us was, was
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shocking and, and, and unfortunate. But all that has gone better, you know, like our numbers in the
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community have gone better. COVID admissions have come down significantly. Our ICU numbers in terms of
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like, like the absolute numbers of patients in the ICU remain relatively high locally for this time of
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year, but the percentage of COVID patients is significantly lower compared to, you know, even
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just a couple of weeks ago. And so like, there is absolute reasons for optimism. We're seeing more and
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more Canadians getting vaccinated and even double vaccinated. So from our perspective, or my perspective,
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I should say things are looking up. One of my biggest kind of concerns with, with communications
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and information during COVID right now, we increasingly live in a soundbite age and a sort
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of tweet age. And a lot of the information that, that we were getting that people were processing was,
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was pretty sort of capsule information. Whereas I know you have a very full picture, very nuanced
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picture. And I want to get you to break down a bit more, please, for us, the idea of younger people
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being admitted to the ICUs, because a lot of people took that. We just hear young people getting
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into hospital. We'd see that on the ticker board. And a lot of people got nervous and said, man,
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this new variant, it's, you know, it's knocking down people in their twenties and their prime and
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so forth. Well, hold on, you know, what, what was really going on? Who were these? Can you break
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down for us what the, what the profile was of the person, what it means, you know, to be younger?
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Because for a while, first wave, we're talking people in their eighties and nineties. What was it
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Yeah, that's a very good point, Anthony, because once again, this wave, the third wave,
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we were seeing younger demographic, as you mentioned earlier in the pandemic, we were seeing
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typically older patients in their sixties, seventies, eighties. And this time around,
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they were vaccinated. So some of our vulnerable population, unfortunately, were a bit younger,
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but the, the key demographics that we saw throughout the pandemic, regardless of age was
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obesity, type two diabetes, high blood pressure, other also known as metabolic syndrome was clearly
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a risk factor. Like when we saw patients that were in their, you know, I saw some that were in their
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twenties and thirties, but unfortunately, obesity was a predominant part of their profile.
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And so it, it, you know, in some ways, this was once again, my bias, I always thought Anthony,
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this was the, it was good to bring this up because maybe it would empower a lot of people to ask
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themselves, like, should we be doing more to think about prevention and getting healthy in terms of
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what we eat and staying active. But, you know, we, there was a lot of things to tackle, I guess.
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And a lot of this wasn't, I'd argue that this wasn't even really brought up at all within
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mainstream media. And I'm not even sure in Twitter world, how much this was brought up,
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but it was just so apparent from early on in the pandemic that this was a huge contributor to people
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getting sick from COVID. And luckily because they were younger, they were, most of the patients would
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pull through, which was, was great. We also saw a bit of a rise in pregnant cases, which was a full
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disclosure. We want some of the most anxiety provoking scenarios as a ICU doc, but you know,
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in my, in my limited exposure to these patients, they, they, they got through.
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You make a, you make a really interesting point when you're talking about why didn't we talk about
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health factors and so forth. And I know you've been an advocate of that for quite some time.
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And I can't help, but feel that early on in the pandemic, we said, we want to make sure everyone
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takes this seriously. We want to do things out of an abundance of caution. I get that. So we started
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basically saying, look, anyone can get coronavirus. Anyone can get, get it seriously. Anyone can die of
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it. So everybody needs to follow all these rules. Everybody needs to follow the lockdowns. And I get
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that idea of making people take it seriously, but I worry sometimes that didn't allow for the very
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conversations you're talking about here. When you, when you're saying, you know, we got to talk about
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healthy living. This is not, you know, I would do a lot of writing on comorbidity data and people
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would be like, well, Anthony, what's your point? You're trying to suggest that, uh, you know,
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these people don't matter or so forth. And no, no, no, it's almost kind of the opposite that there
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are, there is a, a group, there are specific indicators in people that suggest, well, they really
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matter. And we really need to talk about that. Yeah. And the thing why it's so important to
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capture the data is, is exactly what you say. So you could do something about it. So whether
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it's your vaccine strategy, whether it's once again, promoting healthy living, because one of
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the things as a nice you doc that I found shocking, and this was kind of some of the content that we
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covered on our podcast was that some of these conditions you could reverse relatively quickly
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based on what, how you choose to eat, whether that's fasting, low carb, ketogenic approaches to,
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to health. Um, like there's ways that you could really reverse disease relatively quickly. And
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to me, this, I was new, new to that. I wasn't aware that, you know, this was an option for so
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many. So when I, when I caught wind of these opportunities, I was like, wow, how could we not
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be preaching this to the world right now when this is a huge driver in the pandemic? And, and you kind
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of alluding to this too, like not everybody has the same risk factors. Like, you know, I'm, I'm in
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my, you know, in my forties, I'm, uh, relatively healthy and I, I'm, I don't have the same risk of,
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of, of dying from COVID as, you know, even someone my age, but you know, that has obesity or high blood
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pressure. And I think this is something that, you know, is should, in my opinion, it should have been
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part of the discussion because a lot of our messaging just induced fear and it induced some
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anxiety, undo anxiety. Um, and I mean, to me, that has sequela. Like you could see it, like
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even to this day, when you walk by somebody outside on the street and they feel like they got to cross
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the street to, cause they want to reduce their risk of getting COVID. And I'm like, I'm sorry,
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you can't, you're not going to get COVID this way, but walking past me on the street, it's just,
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I don't know. I think to me, it always came down to like, let's focus on the real problems,
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the real areas of concern and not dilute the public with so much information and so much fear-based
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info, um, to distract us. But you know, that's just my humble opinion, Anthony.
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Well, speaking about, you know, real problems moving forward, cause now, thankfully we,
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it seems like a lot of things are in the rear view mirror. Are you worried about,
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about long-term concerns that are, that are indirectly related to coronavirus? I know we
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talked about, uh, we, we've heard reports on deferred breast cancer screenings to give just
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one example, or, or to your point, the potential psychological damage that some people are going
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to feel, you know, are they going to continue to have anxiety in the grocery store and so forth?
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May that manifest itself physically and so on. Do you have concerns about, about the months and I
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don't know, maybe years ahead with that stuff? Unfortunately, I have massive concerns about
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this and I'll start with our kids. Like the fact that they're not in school, the fact that the,
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you know, their physical health, their, their mental health is being directly impacted. Like
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my wife's a psychologist. We're good friends with a child psychologist and the, the demands that are
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on families and kids right now is immense, you know? And when we look at even the inpatient
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admissions for mental health disorder for kids, it's like my concern, Anthony, is that not only are
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these short-term concerns, but for some of these kids, it's going to be lifelong and it's generational.
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And, and this is to me, one of the saddest parts of our COVID response. And at the beginning,
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when we didn't know much, that's one thing, but at knowing this level of, of, of how much we know
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now about COVID it's, it's, it's to me, it's a travesty when you think of the domestic or the,
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not only domestic abuse, but the child abuse that is going unseen right now at so many levels.
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We, they're, they're, they're consequences to our, our, our actions. And then you mentioned also like
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the delayed cancer screening. That's unfortunately, we're going to see the consequences of that delayed
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surgeries. I can't tell you how many people I've seen presenting late as they were waiting for an
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operation, uh, and either unfortunately pass or have complications from, you know, having that delay.
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We've seen people presenting late to hospital because of fear of coming into hospital. This one to me is
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on us. Like we really, from a public messaging should have been from the, from the get-go. If you're
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having symptoms that you feel need to be addressed acutely, please come into hospital. We'll do our
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best to keep you safe and, and, and we'll treat you for, for the conditions you need because the
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amount of late strokes, the late, uh, the late heart attacks that I've seen, the late infections
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has been really unfortunate and, and too many to that, uh, too many to, to count, unfortunately.
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Why is this not being discussed more? I mean, this is what's so frustrating doctor. I mean,
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there's, there's a lot of conversations on the news about obviously the concerns about different
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waves, ICU capacity and, and the horrible things that, uh, that our old folks endured in long-term
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care facilities. I get all of that. I'm not sympathetic to it. I know, I know two people
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who've lost their parents or lost a parent to coronavirus. It's very real. It's very much a
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problem, but then you had people who, who wouldn't, they'd go on the airwaves and they were,
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they were very credentialed people and they wouldn't acknowledge these harms. And I know
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you've been a powerful voice calling for a more balanced approach. Why have we not had,
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well, forget a balanced approach. Why have we not had a more balanced conversation?
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Well, I mean, Anthony, at the beginning, it was taboo to be honest with you. Like it was all about,
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you know, everyone stay home, do your part. That's all we, that's all we could do. And
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I got to tell you, I was motivated because of what we were seeing it. What we're already seeing
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early, for example, was the late presentations coming into hospital. That was, that was probably
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my first signal of like, uh, like we should be talking about some of these consequences and not
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only because, you know, just sitting, you know, maybe we shouldn't be going, we should be altering
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our restrictions, but also that maybe we could be doing something about it to address it, whether that's
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messaging, whether that's active, uh, you know, uh, just being more active and addressing these things.
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But man, at the beginning, it was taboo to talk about some of the consequences, but yeah, I think
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as an ICU doc who, you know, our role, if we're doing our jobs, well, is to always look at things
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holistically. Like you can't just look at one organ. You can't just say, Hey, let's make sure that the
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kidneys are doing well. And that's all we're going to focus on. You need to think of the,
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you need to think of the heart. You need to think of the lungs. You need to think of the liver. Like
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you have to think of all things in unison to, and then come up with a solution that kind of balances
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things. And so as more and more information comes through and you realize, whoa, you know,
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there's another side to this coin. It's these harms. We need to factor that in to our equation.
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That's the thing that killed me, Anthony, was when you roll out these models of, of,
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you know, the impact of COVID-19 in my world, when we do research, like I do a lot of cost analysis,
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it's always cost benefit. It's harm and benefit. You know, like you got to look at both sides of the
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coin and we weren't at all discussing the second, the other side of the coin. We're saying, yeah,
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these are the projections for ICU admissions, for mortality, for cases, but what were the impacts
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that are restrictions going to have on long-term, whether that's the economy, whether it's our
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kids education, whether it's cancer rates, where are those projections? You have to put that into
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the equation to decide what is the best action. Otherwise you're going blind.
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And they didn't do it. I asked Dr. Barbara, Dr. Barbara Yaffe, the associate chief medical
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officer of health for the province at a press conference. I asked her live, has the department
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of health in Ontario done a cost benefit analysis? And she gave this kind of laugh. I don't think
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it was a laughing at the question. I think it was a nervous laugh where she was like,
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pretty much no, yes, those things matter, I guess, but no, we haven't done it. And to your point,
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you say in your line of work, you're doing cost benefit analysis. There's businesses where they
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make the smallest, most inconsequential decision. They do the cost benefit analysis. It's beyond me
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that one of the biggest decisions we've, we've made in like our lives, shutting down society,
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people have just kind of shrugged it off. They've been like, oh, okay, fine. You know,
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if you flip a coin, if it makes sense. Yeah. It was just, I don't know. The whole thing was kind of,
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it was a bit scary in some ways. Like the way we were just, just like, to me, like the key thing,
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Anthony too, was always like using the data that's in front of us to make our decisions as well. Like,
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like, you know, don't try and, uh, politicize this. Let's look at our data and then come,
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come up with the most logical actions. Like one of the things in Ontario that was baffling was
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we knew that, like, if you look at the, the, the hotspots, like the truly hotspots,
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like Ontario was hotspot. Like that was the issue, man. You go to Peel, you go to Scarborough,
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like that place was on fire. Right. And if you think, you take an outside perspective and say,
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like, why don't we just address a fire? Right. Let's really focus on our energy,
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our resources on where this, where this, uh, this, uh, the hotspots are, because if we can control
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that, man, we can really control the, the, the concerns in Ontario. And one other thing too,
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that I think also gets lost in the discussion before I forget was when we look at health,
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public health, it's not just COVID. It's always, it's health is multi tier. It's multifaceted.
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It is COVID. Yes. But mental illness overdoses, uh, as we talked about strokes, am I other aspects
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of health and it baffled me that how, how we did not address or acknowledge some of these things.
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Like when we looked at even BC, their reports of opioid overdoses were, you know, the highest
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they've seen in years. And what were you going to do about it? Or why aren't we discussing these
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things? You know, like look at the data and let's try and come up with solutions. But man,
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it just, I don't know if it was just because this thing got too political or the decision makers,
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I have no idea, but we really needed to be more data driven throughout this thing.
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Well, let's talk about that for a bit, the politicization of it, both in the broader,
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you know, political realm and in the healthcare and medical community realm,
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you alluded to it a bit, the idea of, oh, you couldn't even talk about this or that and so forth.
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One of the things I guess I've had a split experience here where, uh, speaking to so many,
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uh, credentialed medical voices, such as yourself, I just have so much respect,
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a newfound respect for what you guys are all doing and my hats off to all of you. But then at the same
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time, I also see these really kind of petty, caustic attacks on social media and this cliquishness.
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And I'm kind of like, oh, wow, this is also, there's a lot of like high school nonsense going
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on as well. That is made, you know, there's, there's online bullying and so forth happening.
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If you know, you don't get on board with my views, and then I'm going to file a complaint to this
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medical regulator, or I'm going to try and get you kicked off this committee, or just this odd stuff
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that I've been hearing about. And, and, you know, people in the medical community have
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been reporting back to me on, I mean, what is going on?
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I, I do not know, but it's, it's been childish. It's, um, like, like, I don't know if it's the
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avenue, the fact that it's been Twitter sphere where people don't have, like people, it's hard
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to have a nuanced discussion and, and look at the gray areas when you're, you know, you got that,
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what is it, 140, no, it's more than 140 characters now, uh, 220 characters now. But, um, I just think
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one of the things that we, I don't know if this is a societal thing, if it's within medicine, but we,
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we started to tie our, our opinions to our identities, you know, like what's, what you've decided to be
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pro, I'm just using random example, pro mask, you're pro mask, no matter what, you know, if you,
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you were in a scenario where you think, Hey, maybe masks aren't necessarily,
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aren't necessary in the circumstances, it was, it was almost like you've now said something about
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your character. And I just think we just needed to stick with our values. Ultimately just stick
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with the values. What do we want? We want what's best for our patients. We want what's best for society
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and let's navigate and discuss some of these things because there was, because of that inability to,
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especially at the beginning of pandemic to, to discuss some of these concerns, I think there's
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negative consequences. Right. And I just think having an open dialogue, like this was what we
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normally do in science is that you, you could debate something and you could change your mind,
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you could stick with your guns, but it's, it's amicable, it's respectful. And at the end of the day,
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we're shaking hands and saying like, okay, we, we've collectively come up with a solution that we
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probably think is the best for everybody. But this just became war. Like I've never,
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like I, you know, I, at the end of the day, I always say, you know, my values is always, you know,
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do the right thing. You know, it's what we're trying to instill in our kids. And, and that was my
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kind of anchor when there was like the onslaught of Twitter attacks for, you know, uh, I think you
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were attacked for just standing up for kids for saying, I think we should reopen the schools and
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so forth. And then people get really angry and you know, like, how can you attack a guy for standing
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up for kids? But I guess they found a way. Exactly. I mean, this is the thing people would
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just dig their heels, you know, and I, and to me, you know, when it come down to like a lot of my
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colleagues, they're scared to speak up for sure. Like I would get, I've been actually in a lot of
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ways. Um, um, it's been nice to see people reach out and say, thank you for your messages. And, and
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thanks for being courageous. And in some ways I, you know, it's nice to hear, but in a lot of ways,
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I feel like it's not, I'm not even being that courageous. It's just, you're doing the right
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thing. Like who can not, like, how can you be upset at somebody for defending children? Right.
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Like really, you're gonna, you're gonna really, uh, like reprimand somebody for speaking up for the
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people that can't speak up for themselves. To your point, I guess it's an absolutism. Like you said,
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I'm on team mask or I'm on school shutdowns and so forth. I always got so upset to see the,
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like when I'd see those videos, there weren't many of them, but somebody decided I'm not wearing
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a mask in the Loblaws today. And I don't know why they may be, cause they're a, you know,
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maybe they're a conspiracy theorist. Maybe they had a medical problem. Maybe they forgot it. I
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don't know. They just didn't wear the mask and there's 100 people in the Loblaws and this guy,
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and of course they, everyone has to film him and they have to yell at him. And then the cops drag
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him out and there's a fight. And I'm like, okay, one guy doesn't want to wear the mask. Okay.
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Like I follow the rules. I wear the mask. If one guy doesn't want to wear the mask, who cares?
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There's a thing the other week, this Jagmeet Singh discovered to be breaking COVID rules.
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I was like, oh, what's this? I looked at the video and I guess he ran into a guy outdoors
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that he knew and he was a person he hadn't seen in a while. And he gave him a quick hug. He gave
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him like this bro hug kind of thing. And Jagmeet's vaccinated at that point. And oh,
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I had to apologize. And I was like, where's our humanity? The guy gave a guy a quick hug outdoors
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for just a second. Please don't make this into a national news story.
00:22:16.120
Yeah. No, it's like, I feel like people are trying to do their best to like control what they can
00:22:24.520
control or something. Like I'm not, I mean, I don't want to play psychologist, but it's just,
00:22:29.400
it is funny how these reactions could really blow up. Like I've seen it on all forms of social media,
00:22:36.680
taking pictures of, Hey, this guy went into a church without a mask or, you know, all these
00:22:41.960
kinds of things. And I think, and maybe this is my palliative care side of things. It's like,
00:22:47.720
just come at it with a little bit of compassion. You know, maybe there's a good reason. Like,
00:22:52.280
you know, we assume somebody like is walking into a store and, and, or being outside, whatever,
00:22:59.080
and not wearing a mask. It's for a mal, like a negative reason, but maybe they have a condition.
00:23:07.080
Maybe they have a respiratory condition where they're having a tough time breathing. Maybe they
00:23:11.000
have a claustrophobia. Like just come up with some compassion and you don't need,
00:23:16.680
not everyone's going to follow the rules. Uh, not everyone's going to do what we think is right.
00:23:23.000
But, um, you know, we can't change everybody's mind. It's just collectively for most of us are
00:23:29.160
doing the right thing. That's going to make, that's going to, that's going to put a dent in this thing.
00:23:33.160
And this is why we, we have made dents. Well, why we've made some progress, but yeah,
00:23:39.640
just coming at it with a bit of a lens of compassion and just saying like,
00:23:43.000
why is this person doing this? Maybe it's out of fear. Maybe it's out of, um, insecurity,
00:23:48.280
anxiety, like, but just let's be nice to each other for once.
00:23:53.720
Doctor, when it comes to what's happening right now, this summer, I know a lot of
00:23:56.280
Canadians just want to forget about COVID. They've had their vaccines and they just want to party on
00:24:00.440
a patio or what have you. What are the things that you would like to see addressed right now?
00:24:05.320
Because I know there are still some concerns. Yeah. For me, it's just, once again, let's use
00:24:10.680
the data that we have available to decide what can, what we can reopen, what we could do safely
00:24:17.720
and approach it that way, put the politics aside and let's, let's, let's be objective.
00:24:23.480
You know, and some of the things that I know where we all know, like being outside really safe,
00:24:28.040
right? Like I still have yet to see somebody in hospital related to an outdoor exposure.
00:24:34.440
Right. I, I haven't, I haven't seen it. I haven't had a clear example in the medical
00:24:39.160
literature. I'm sure it's happened. I'm not to say it's impossible. I'm just saying like,
00:24:43.320
this is how rare we're talking. And so, you know, and, and we, and when it comes to COVID, I'm,
00:24:50.520
I'm one of harm reduction mentality. Like let's do our best to still live life,
00:24:55.320
but reduce our risk of getting sick. So, you know, when it comes to reopening, let's,
00:25:00.920
let's do the stuff that's safe. Patios, outdoor spaces, um, you know, continue to get as many
00:25:07.160
people vaccinated because the vaccines work. I like, I think this is another one, Anthony,
00:25:12.600
where the messaging is, was like atrocious, right? Like when you hear the, you know, this vaccine,
00:25:18.360
68, 68% effective, uh, against mild disease. But when you look at the data from the
00:25:25.240
trials, literally only one patient out of 130,000 was hospitalized. That's the kind of effectiveness
00:25:31.640
we're talking about. This should be celebrated. This should be screamed to the world. And we should
00:25:36.360
be like telling people how miraculous this stuff is as opposed to like, Oh, well, I want to,
00:25:43.320
maybe I'm going to go choose Moderna over, uh, this one because it's, uh, get to gain that extra 3%.
00:25:48.920
Like, no, like really focus on the win here. You're not going to be hospitalized or you're much
00:25:54.200
less likely to be hospitalized because you chose to get vaccinated. Um, the other things I'm looking
00:26:00.200
for is like, there's no excuses. I'm sorry for schools not to open like realistically at this
00:26:06.200
point with the data we have available with the harms that we've seen. I just, Oh, this is, it kills
00:26:12.520
me inside thinking, uh, that's even a possibility for September. Um, but yeah, I think, yeah, let's
00:26:19.720
use the data available. Let's like, look at other centers to like, look at Israel. Let's look at UK.
00:26:25.240
Let's look at, uh, BC. You know what I'm saying? Look at Quebec that have, that have, uh, you know,
00:26:32.200
that have opened up that have kept schools or in light of BC kept schools open and look at where
00:26:38.920
they are now, you know, we're just to put some like, uh, we're mid close to mid June and their
00:26:45.240
cases are still going down and they're opening up their economy. So like, let's use the data in
00:26:51.320
front of us to help guide us. But you know, uh, put the politics aside. Well, what do you think
00:26:56.200
about the U S I mean, I feel like in many respects they've put the politics aside because they're way
00:27:00.200
more open than Canada, but kind of whether you're talking about, you know, Republican governor of Florida
00:27:04.760
versus, uh, left leaning, uh, democratic Chicago mayor, uh, in Chicago, Lori Lightfoot. I mean,
00:27:11.160
they're, they're both like, you can take polar opposites of the political spectrum, different
00:27:14.920
sides of the country, and they're all kind of all much bigger on reopenings than everybody is here in
00:27:20.040
Canada. And I know there's a bit different case numbers, different vaccination numbers, but I feel
00:27:24.280
like it's also kind of a different just frame of mind and attitude towards it. Do you think Americans
00:27:29.640
have, have the right attitude or do you, do you prefer the Canadian one? Yeah, that's a tough,
00:27:34.840
that's a tough one. I I'll, I'll be honest with you. And I feel like I'm pretty liberal is, is that I
00:27:39.880
think I, I would have still been a quite, I would have been less aggressive in, in terms of the opening.
00:27:47.240
Like it sounds certainly at least the last time I looked at the data seems like their approach has
00:27:52.680
worked. Like I just watched the, the golden Knights game and stadium was packed, you know, and that's
00:27:59.320
indoor, not outdoor. Right. And they were still able to make this happen. And we're not hearing
00:28:03.800
about increasing cases, you know? So, you know, I think once, once again, being data focused, you
00:28:10.200
wonder how many, not only how they had a ton of vaccine vaccines, uh, uh, uh, sorry, their population
00:28:17.560
vaccinated early on, but there's a significant amount of, uh, natural immunity, I would suspect
00:28:23.800
in a lot of those areas. So how much that plays into things? I think if I'm answering your question
00:28:29.800
directly, I think it would be somewhere in the middle where, you know, really opening up early,
00:28:37.560
the things that we know are safe, like the outdoor, like, as I mentioned, the outdoor space, outdoor
00:28:42.760
environment. I think even if I were, you know, king of the world at some point, really actually being
00:28:50.840
proactive and saying, how can we stimulate the economy using that outdoor space? Like really,
00:28:56.200
you know, whether it's outdoor markets, uh, you know, I think this could have been an opportunity
00:29:01.000
to really just get, you know, not only foster the economy, but also like morale saying like,
00:29:05.400
Hey, locally, we're going to do this to try and support local business. Um, so once again, to answer
00:29:11.400
you directly, it'd probably be somewhere in the middle, but, um, you know, if I'm choosing a place
00:29:17.400
within Canada that you, we should be modeling at minimum is British Columbia.
00:29:22.360
Well, let me ask you what's become a controversial question. I feel like we should be able to talk
00:29:25.880
about it as a academic question, but I know it's controversial. You mentioned natural immunity,
00:29:29.800
us seeming to have more of it because they just, you know, had more reopenings and some
00:29:34.120
jurisdictions, I think we're just kind of like, didn't even want to acknowledge coronavirus.
00:29:37.800
I think North Dakota had an interesting experience, uh, with that. I know you talked about metabolic
00:29:42.360
issues that people in ICU had had and so forth, all things that I think are a bit more prevalent
00:29:46.040
in the U S so Canada, generally more healthier population. Could we have allowed young people
00:29:51.480
to pretty much live their lives similar to what Sweden did, uh, almost throughout the pandemic
00:29:57.640
here in Canada, there would have been a more sort of natural immunity floating around. Did we almost
00:30:03.000
deny people the opportunity to have a go at that?
00:30:05.640
Yeah. I mean, they're all important considerations. Like one thing I'll say for sure is that
00:30:11.800
I think the, the natural, like you'll see some stuff in the literature, like is natural immunity
00:30:17.640
enough. I haven't seen anything convincing to say that it's not enough. And you know, in terms of
00:30:23.160
protecting yourself, like, uh, I, I think it's, you know, diligent that we are vaccinating people that
00:30:29.320
have, uh, had, uh, the, the COVID before, but I do think there is something to be said about that in
00:30:38.440
regards to the kids. Yeah. I mean, I don't know, like certainly kids are less likely to be sick for
00:30:44.760
sure. Like that is, that, that is clear, uh, in the data, their trends, their ability to transmit
00:30:51.960
it to others, especially the young kids aren't, it's not the same as older adults for sure. So I,
00:30:57.560
you know, I don't know if the, uh, they needed to be, uh, you know, wide open as in Sweden. Cause I,
00:31:03.480
I mean, all it takes is the, you know, a kid to give it to the vulnerable. They can still give it
00:31:09.880
to people that were vulnerable, like whether that's by age or metabolic health, but certainly,
00:31:15.560
um, this is one of the reasons why I thought, you know, that I think that schools have been safe.
00:31:21.800
And, and I think if anything, there was opportunities to keep our kids active. Like,
00:31:26.600
you know, once again, taking care of that outdoor, utilizing that outdoor space, whether that's,
00:31:31.800
um, you know, to sport, whether it's, whether it's through education, if we were really that
00:31:37.160
worried, because I think, you know, this is going to be unfortunately some generational impacts on
00:31:43.240
many. And so, uh, you know, I, I, we were talking a little bit before Anthony about just trying to
00:31:48.920
all do our part to advocate for our kids. Like we, we, we, we have a charitable, uh,
00:31:54.120
organization bridges over barriers that we're doing a fundraiser for that reason, like this summer to get
00:31:59.960
our kids active, like to be, you know, cause Ford came out saying, you know, we want our kids to
00:32:06.440
be able to go to summer camps and so forth. And, you know, once again, looking at the data,
00:32:11.480
how many of the kids can actually afford summer camps? And these are often the hardest hit spots
00:32:18.600
too, that throughout the pandemic. And so, yeah, we were all just trying to do our part to advocate
00:32:23.560
for them, making sure that they can have a chance to go to summer camp. And so we're doing a small
00:32:28.360
fundraiser there, but man, uh, the kids, they really were the forgotten ones in this pandemic.
00:32:35.560
Well, great to hear about that charity and good on you. That's a, that's a great endeavor. Uh,
00:32:40.040
before we go, I mean, you alluded to, you hope schools will be reopened in Ontario in September.
00:32:45.080
Other jurisdictions in Canada have had them open for much longer. And I gotta say, I'm, I'm a little
00:32:49.960
nervous and I hear this from others that, that people who are, who are committed to being overly,
00:32:55.640
excessively cautious, aren't going to give that up easily. Yes. Vaccination rates are increasing
00:33:00.920
and it looks like cases will just continue to crash across June, July and so forth. But,
00:33:05.560
you know, the seasonal component of this is many have acknowledged, this is an endemic illness.
00:33:09.240
Now it's, it's, it's here to stay. Hopefully, you know, fewer people get it and fewer people,
00:33:14.120
of course there have to be hospitalized with it, but we could see case numbers rise in September.
00:33:18.360
Um, and we could have the same attitude that, okay, we have to shut things down. We can't reopen
00:33:23.480
the schools in September. I mean, it seems like a crazy thing to say, but I, I think it's within
00:33:27.560
the realm of possibility and I'm, I'm nervous about that happening. A hundred percent. Just
00:33:32.680
look at the track record. You know what I mean? Like we're the only, aren't we the only
00:33:38.440
province right now or like jurisdiction in the, in North America that has their schools not open?
00:33:44.600
Yeah. Like, you know, you're in Kingston the other day, they had zero cases and you're having
00:33:50.920
your schools. Like, you know how I'm sorry, but that it's insane. Close the patios, zero cases.
00:33:57.560
Yeah. You can't have a beer outside in the wind.
00:33:59.720
It just does. This is what I'm saying. Like we gotta use the data, be smart. Um, cause all these
00:34:06.440
restrictions, they have consequences. And you know, as we mentioned, what's the flip side,
00:34:11.640
let's talk about that flip side. But in regards to schools, man, you could come up with 14 excuses
00:34:18.520
the government could come up with. Well, the new, the latest, uh, variant, you know, like, uh,
00:34:25.080
are we sure that we're, our vaccines are going to be susceptible to that? Uh, are the kids at,
00:34:30.200
by that time, I'm just a educated guess. There'll be more data on safety of vaccines for younger kids,
00:34:37.400
like younger than 12. Are they going to be asking for single or double vaccines there?
00:34:42.280
Um, should it be mandatory at schools? That's become controversial because I know a lot of
00:34:46.760
people say, look, we don't know, to your point, we don't know what's going on with kids in the
00:34:49.720
vaccine. So if they're not really dying of it, if they're not getting it seriously,
00:34:52.760
do not give them the vaccine. But I've already seen some people and even some teachers union reps say,
00:34:58.040
well, the students aren't vaccinated yet. So how can we go back to the classroom? I go,
00:35:02.840
Yeah. I mean, this is just my humble opinion. That should not be,
00:35:09.240
A great place to leave it at a fascinating conversation. Dr. Kwajo Kamaratang. Thank you
00:35:14.200
so much for your time today. Full Comment is a post-media podcast. I'm Anthony Fury.
00:35:19.720
This episode was produced by Andre Peru with theme music by Bryce Hall. Kevin Libin is the executive
00:35:24.760
producer. You can subscribe to Full Comment on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get your
00:35:29.880
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