Best of 2022： ‘Used by the CBC’ — Wendy Mesley after the ‘N-word’ incident
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Summary
A remarkable career during a time that saw incredible changes in the media landscape. Now, Wendy Mesley is the host with Maureen Holloway of a new show, Women of Ill Repute, about people who don t give a damn about the old rules. She also tells us more about her much-publicized departure from the CBC, including an incident that involved the use of the N-word.
Transcript
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Hi, I'm Kevin Libin, the executive producer of the Full Comment Podcast.
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Over the holidays, we're going to be running a couple of our favorite episodes of 2022.
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This was one of our biggest episodes of the year.
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Wendy Mesley was essentially canceled from the Canadian Broadcast Corporation for saying the wrong word.
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But in a meeting about racism, she uttered the N-word.
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And despite her apologies, she was drummed out of a nearly 40-year career.
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As she tells Anthony Fury, she thinks she was used, made into a sacrifice to the bigger problems in the CBC's internal culture.
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And remember, you can always go back and listen to episodes of Full Comment that you may have missed from earlier this year or further back in our archive on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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I want to wish a Happy New Year to all our listeners, and we'll see you again with a whole new episode on January 9.
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A remarkable career during a time that saw incredible changes in the media landscape.
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Now, Wendy Mesley is the host with Maureen Holloway of a new show, the podcast Women of Ill Repute, which is described as being about people who don't give a damn about the old rules.
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Mesley also told us more about her much-publicized departure from the CBC, an incident that involved the use of the N-word.
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Wendy joins us today to talk about her career, her new show, the state of media today in Canada, including the future of the CBC, and so much more.
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Wendy Mesley, welcome to the program. Thank you so much for joining us today.
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Oh, you're very, very welcome. Lovely to be here, Anthony. How are you?
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Good. I'm so happy to hear you mention Undercurrents, because that was my favorite show.
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I loved doing that show. I had been a political reporter forever,
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and I thought that there weren't really people who were investigating media or marketing or advertising or all of that stuff,
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And, of course, I soon learned why no other network was doing that.
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It was because I was attacking my colleagues and attacking advertisers and so on,
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but it was great while it lasted, and CBC, God bless them for that.
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They let me do that show, so thank you for mentioning that. That was my favorite.
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And, you know, it's funny, because I guess sometimes the things that people consider their own career highlights,
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you know, people they've interviewed or places they've gone to, are not necessarily what the public would think.
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Like you say, oh, the prime minister, what have you? Well, no, it was actually this or that.
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What sort of anecdotes or interviews do you chalk as your favorites that perhaps we wouldn't first think of?
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You know what? I think that's everybody's or so many people's first question and definitely a favorite question.
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And I'm terrible. I used to think it was a guy thing, but I don't think it is.
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I mean, there's certain interviews that I remember.
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Like I remember asking Jean-Christien why his face was half frozen that everybody talked about,
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but nobody ever asked him. And he gave me an honest answer.
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Like I remember he said, yeah, I had this disease when I was a kid,
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and now, you know, I talked to this other ear, and I hear better through that, and on we go.
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So I thought that was like, I remember weird little moments as opposed to like,
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I always wanted to interview Dolly Parton. And I, at one point at CBC, they said,
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who of all the people in the world were doing something to fill time in the summer
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when no one's spending any money. But who of all the people in the world would you like to interview?
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And I said, Dolly Parton, this is like 10 years ago. And she wouldn't do it, wouldn't do it,
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wouldn't do it. And then finally said, I won't come up and do it,
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or I won't meet you and do it, but you can come to, what's it called?
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Yeah. And it was when I had booked to go away on holidays, and I couldn't go,
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and it was awful. So that was my big, my big chance. So yeah, I guess I probably would have
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remembered every word of that interview, but it never happened.
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She does strike me as a genuinely just decent human being, Dolly Parton.
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I know. Yeah. And she's such, you know, I mean, the fake boobs and all, which,
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you know, as women were 50 years ago, raised to think, you know, anything you do to enhance your,
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you should never do any of that. But she did it. She was open about it. Her music is great. She can
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write a song in five minutes. And she's, she's just such an inspiration. I'm not a big music person,
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uh, which Maureen Holloway, my, uh, uh, co-host on the new podcast that we're doing points out to me
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all the time that I am really a mutant when it comes to, uh, pop culture. But to me, Dolly is
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such a, such a great character. She's just, she's, she's used, she's, she's brilliant and she's a
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brilliant business person and she's used her life to make life better for other people. So kind of a
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You know, Wendy asking, how are you doing now? I'm sure there's a lot of people who, who approach you
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and probably ask you that question just because they're so used to you being in the background
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of their lives with the television on seeing you every day. They haven't seen you for, for well
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over a year and they're probably coming up to you on the streets and saying, how are you doing, Wendy?
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Well, it's weird. Like people, uh, most of the people who come up to me are over 40 because it
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seems that, uh, mainstream media now is, uh, only watched by people over 40 or maybe even older.
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Um, so yeah, no, I'm doing fine. I, it was, uh, it was a heartbreaking thing that I went through at,
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uh, at CBC. Um, uh, I mean, I can talk about that. I can, I wouldn't mind actually telling you
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what happened because for a year I didn't, uh, didn't stand up for myself and didn't say anything
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and sort of hope that things would get better. And, uh, and I think I was used by CBC to, uh,
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basically say, uh, we have a racism problem and it's her. So let's all hate her. Um, so yeah,
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basically what happened was I was on a phone call, uh, preparing a show, uh, uh, George Floyd
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had been murdered by the cops a week earlier. We were doing something on, uh, racism in Canadian
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media. And we had, uh, three black people who were going to come on to the journalists who were
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going to come on and talk about what it was like in journalism. And anyway, so we were, I was talking
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with other producers on the phone cause it was COVID time, the beginning of COVID time.
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And, um, anyway, I was outraged that this woman who was going to be on our panel,
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this journalist had said that she was called that all the time. And anyway, I was outraged by this
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and, uh, kept going on. She was called the N word all the time.
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She was called the N word all she said, she was called this all the time. So I wanted that to be
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part of our panel discussion. And, um, I, I think I used the N word in the first reference and then I
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used the whole word and cause I got caught up in the moment and I shouldn't have used it. And I
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realized immediately that I'd hurt people and I apologized, uh, for using the word cause I should
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have known better. Um, but it turned into like the next year I was basically portrayed by my
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employer of almost 40 years as, uh, as being a racist and they never stood up for me. And, uh,
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uh, so I, and I never fought for myself. So I, I think I, it, it kind of broke my heart actually. It,
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uh, it was extremely, extremely difficult. So that took a year to resolve that. And during that I got
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sick and my mom died and a whole bunch of other shitty stuff happened. Um, and then finally we
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parted ways, shall we say? And, um, and now I'm doing this podcast. So I'm sort of a broadcaster,
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but I'm more of a podcaster, not making any money, but if you want to sign up, uh, please do.
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We're looking for sponsors. We're looking for like big bags of money to fall from the sky. So I'm,
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I'm fine now, but it was, uh, it was a rather rough thing to go through when you look back on that
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period. And you kind of say, you know, I didn't say it on the air. I, I apologize because I had
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hurt people and should have known better and I deserve to be punished, but I didn't deserve the
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punishment that I got, which was basically losing all credibility and my reputation and my job and
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my show and everything else at CBC. So. Wow. Yeah. And losing your mother as well. I'm sorry to hear
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about that very difficult. Yeah. Well, it's funny. I wrote, I think you want to ask me about the piece
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that I wrote for the globe, uh, more than a year ago, but I wrote another piece, uh, that got
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published on mother's day. So recently, um, and it was about, uh, my mother as being the original woman
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of ill repute. Cause she basically raised me. She left my dad who I revealed in that piece was
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gay. Um, back in those days, it was illegal to be gay. Um, he was going to go through psychotherapy
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or whatever and see a psychiatrist and learn how not to be gay as if that's a thing. Um,
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anyway, so obviously their marriage did not work out, but somehow I happened. And, uh, so I, I wrote
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about how she basically went on and, and formed a life for herself and for me after leaving him and
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how, um, she was the original woman of ill repute and that, you know, she wasn't, it took her seven
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years to get, uh, custody of me and to get a divorce. And by the time she could date, she was
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in her thirties. And in those days, uh, if you weren't married by 30, you're a spinster. Um, so
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anyway, she never remarried and she raised me to, to fight for myself and to think a little bit
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differently than a lot of women were raised to think in those days. And, um, yeah, so I, I, uh,
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yeah, it was, it was difficult losing her, but she had dementia. So she was sort of slipping away
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gradually. It was, uh, not, not a shock. Um, when she died.
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There's so much to unpack about what you discussed there about your departure from CBC.
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One thing I found interesting, you mentioned, and a year later, so there was the incident,
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the meeting, um, which you promptly apologized for, realized you, you'd misspoken. And then a year
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later, you feel like you're sort of the fall guy, the fall gal for this racism at the CBC
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It didn't take a year. I, yeah, no, I felt that pretty immediately when it turned into,
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uh, like two or three days in when I realized that it was going to be an HR, uh, and a union
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thing and that they were going to basically allow everybody who wanted to portray me as a racist,
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uh, to portray me as a racist, that like, I was mad from, uh, uh, or I was upset, mad at myself,
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but also mad at CBC, uh, very early on. But when you work for CBC, you can either, um, and something
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happens, you can either go with the process and try and figure it out and hope that, that, you know,
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after 40 years and, and it had its own, its own problems with systemic racism of which it was
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accused publicly at the CRTC and other places by CBC employees. Um, you would hope that I had hoped
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that things could be worked out and that I could actually return. And it took, it took a year, but
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you can't fight. You can't say anything. You can't fight for yourself. You can't say anything publicly.
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So it took a year for me to say, okay, this is not going to work. We, neither of us sees the future
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here. Um, so I'm going to leave. So it took a year for me to say, I'm going to leave and to have the
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freedom to be able to say, I think the treatment of me was inappropriate and, uh, I'm, uh, I'm a free
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person and, uh, I didn't agree to a gag order for whatever money might've been involved. And, uh,
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I'm free obviously, or I wouldn't be speaking to you. Um, uh, that took a year. It didn't take
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me a year to figure out that, uh, CBC and I, uh, were not in good terms.
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So basically you were being spoken about by people for a whole year and, and I guess
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perhaps misrepresented or smeared or called names for about a year on social media or the rumor mill
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in the industry. And you're someone who's used to telling stories, telling people's stories for,
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for many years. And you couldn't tell your own story at that point while other people were,
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Well, I mean, this is a much broader discussion. I don't want to talk about smears or whatever,
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but, um, uh, it is, it is a broader discussion of what's happening in social media is that,
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you know, like my, so many normal people, like everyday people who are not in the media,
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uh, they had no idea what happened because they're, they're not on, on Twitter or Insta or
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other places that I was being denounced or even watching the national, which sort of denounced
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me on air a few times. Um, yeah. Um, but I think that it's generally what's happening in media is
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that people just read what their friends believe and, uh, and we're basically being taught to hate
00:14:10.920
each other. But during that whole period, yeah. I mean, people were saying all kinds of ridiculous
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things about me that, and, and, and even other journalists believe that I had actually called
00:14:20.340
somebody the N word. Like I would never, I never have my long life. I have never called anybody
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that. And I, I thought I had a reputation for fighting for underdogs and, uh, for not being
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someone that would ever call somebody, uh, uh, a name. Um, I used the word, uh, and I thought I was
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being supportive and outraged that somebody had actually been called that word, but, uh, but I
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shouldn't have used it and I apologized. And I think, yeah, so I kept quiet for a year thinking that
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CBC and I would, would work things out, but, uh, but we didn't. So it took me a year to read it.
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And it's crazy to think that there's stories about your departure, but all the facts aren't filled
00:14:59.980
in, or there's a segment about you on the national. And again, the facts aren't filled
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in. So people are left going, well, what did she do? Yeah. Well, somebody said to me, a friend of
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mine said, well, because you didn't speak out because you didn't fight for yourself. Uh, people
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think that, uh, the absolute worst must've happened, that it must've been way worse than what
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actually happened. Um, and it's true. I mean, I think that is my biggest regret is that I, my mom taught
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me to, to fight for myself. Um, and I didn't, I didn't, I didn't fight for myself, but if I,
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if I had, I would have had to have left the CBC grieved the, the, the, uh, punishment that was
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given me, I would have had to have, uh, sued them. And I just, that was, I don't, or, you know,
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I could have gone the other way and attacked the people who didn't know what had happened and who
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had made all kinds of assumptions and were using me to fight a cause. Um, and we're making assumptions
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about me based on stuff that they didn't know, but I didn't want to attack them either. I didn't
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really want to attack either the place I had worked for 40 years or for the people who were
00:16:01.700
fighting for issues that actually mattered a lot to me. So, uh, so I, yeah, I felt like the best
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thing I can do is, uh, try and, and work this out. And then I realized that was not going to happen.
00:16:14.180
It seems definitely very bureaucratic, antiseptic, ungenerous to not discuss the nuances of your
00:16:20.300
situation. Um, that appear, it seems that that's what happened in the HR scenario there,
00:16:26.520
where I know there's debates over, is it acceptable to say this word as an example of a word one
00:16:31.520
shouldn't say, you know, people talk about different nuances. Well, it's said in lyrics
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to songs all the time, kind of thing. You're just using it as example of a word you disapprove of
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and so forth. And it's like, to your point, this word was not said in hostility. You weren't aiming
00:16:44.720
it towards anyone. You were speaking about it disapprovingly and you've acknowledged, you feel
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you shouldn't have said it, you've apologized for it. And yet you still need to lose everything.
00:16:54.600
It's kind of like, where was the nuance in all of that? Yeah. Well, I, I, I don't think that there's
00:17:03.200
any excuse for, for saying the word and I should have known better. And that's why I apologize. And I,
00:17:08.720
and I think that people do need to be careful when they're hurting other people. You know, like my,
00:17:12.880
I, I take particular offense to what's called the C word, which everybody knows as well as they know
00:17:18.920
the N word. I would take particular offense to that. And my husband, you know, he's Irish and
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thinks that that's, think that that's a word that you call everybody that you think is being a dick
00:17:31.840
in a certain moment. And he doesn't see it as offensive. So everybody sees things in different
00:17:37.240
ways and they can express themselves in different ways. I should have known better. I never
00:17:42.380
mean, like if I mean to hurt somebody, like when I was in marketplace and chasing crooked contractors,
00:17:47.360
I meant to hurt them, but I did not mean to hurt anybody by using that word. And I should have
00:17:53.340
known better. And I think, but I do think that context matters. There's a big difference between
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fighting against somebody being called that and saying the word and calling somebody that,
00:18:03.400
which I would never have done in a million years.
00:18:06.380
Right. And I guess I just mean that there was no sense of that nuance in public discussion or
00:18:11.620
reporting of you, or perhaps in the HR process, it seemed to just be, okay, Wendy has to lose
00:18:17.540
I, yeah, I don't want to speak for them. I can speak for myself, but yeah. And I think I've explained
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When you talk about the punishment you received, what, what was that punishment?
00:18:29.560
Uh, well, there are some points that, um, in my, uh, there are some points that I'm not sure that
00:18:38.460
I can speak about, but, uh, it, it was probably the largest punishment, uh, given out, uh, to
00:18:45.620
anyone who was not fired. Uh, and then I ended up losing my job and my show and whatever. Anyway,
00:18:50.560
they, they, uh, the, the, the punishment, uh, at CBC can be, um, uh, not being paid for a period of
00:19:01.820
time. So I was not paid for a period of time and I had to go to sensitivity training. Um, and my show
00:19:08.220
was taken away from me and I was ultimately offered another job, which was to go back and basically,
00:19:14.500
you know, do a job that I did when I was 20 years old, which was, you know, read somebody else's copy.
00:19:20.560
I want to get your thoughts on a story up at cbc.ca right now. Prominent Radio Canada
00:19:26.040
personalities urge broadcaster to fight CRTC N word decision. Basically, there were a few
00:19:32.620
occasions, a number of occasions where a French Canadian employees of, of Radio Canada, part of
00:19:38.220
CBC, uh, had used the N word, I guess in a similar way that, that, that you had in terms of not using
00:19:46.160
it, uh, rudely to a person, but just as an example word, uh, they said this on the air.
00:19:51.760
I know it was established. You said it in a meeting and there was a complaint filed against
00:19:56.860
them and they're saying they want CBC to fight for them. These broadcasters and a lot of, uh,
00:20:03.100
prominent French broadcasters are standing up and saying, yes, you must fight for us, uh, to not
00:20:07.580
receive great punishments for this. I know they often do things differently in Quebec in a number
00:20:11.760
of ways than we do here in English Canada. What do you make of this story? Um, I don't want to make
00:20:17.340
a pronouncement about what Radio Canada or CBC should do, uh, but I have two comments. One is
00:20:23.700
that, uh, nearly all of the people who are saying how dare the CRTC get involved in this, uh, free
00:20:30.980
speech, uh, debate and tell Radio Canada what to say. Um, all of those people are 50 and older and
00:20:39.000
there's a lot of people and white, um, maybe not all of them, but I, but pretty much so. And I
00:20:46.140
happen to know a lot of people under 50 and a few people under 50 who are not white, who work at
00:20:51.980
Radio Canada and are not supportive and think that that nuance does matter. And there was no nuance,
00:20:57.960
um, expressed in that show, acknowledging that saying the word, um, could have, um, harmful or hurtful
00:21:06.600
effects on people. So there's that. And I would also like to point out that, uh, there was a
00:21:11.840
complaint, uh, made, uh, at CBC during this whole inward thing at CBC, as opposed to Radio Canada back
00:21:19.240
in the day when I said the word on the telephone, uh, to staff members, um, not accusing anyone of
00:21:27.140
being that, but being upset that somebody was called that. Uh, so the ombudsman at CBC looked into it and
00:21:32.260
wrote a report and nobody noticed that because there was a lot of blah, blah, blah, as there
00:21:37.940
always is in ombuds people's reports, wherever, wherever the institution is. Um, but they also
00:21:44.940
said that, uh, that the CBC broke its own ethical guidelines for, uh, uh, how they, how they covered
00:21:51.940
what happened to me. So, uh, yeah, there, there is, there is a difference. CBC decided to make an
00:21:58.960
example out of me, even though if you look at all the senior management, or if you look at all the
00:22:03.740
things that were said about, uh, CBC at the time and its own problems with, uh, with racism, um,
00:22:10.360
there, they decided to, uh, um, you know, take advantage of, of, uh, of my using the word and,
00:22:18.640
and my celebrity, I guess, Canadian style celebrity for whatever it's worth. Um, and, uh, there was a
00:22:25.800
very different approach at, uh, at Radio Canada. We'll be back with more full comment in just a
00:22:31.960
moment. Wendy, you mentioned CBC's problems with racism. CBC is a large organization, many employees.
00:22:40.100
Are the problems that CBC has faced, uh, particularly greater than at other institutions?
00:22:46.960
What is unique or specific to CBC's challenges as opposed to the challenges that, that other
00:22:53.220
organizations might face with racism? It is a, um, excuse me, it is a, uh, unique situation,
00:23:00.340
um, because I, I don't think that the issue of diversity or bigotry or racism or whatever is
00:23:07.740
any different or any worse. Uh, it might actually be better at CBC than a lot of places, but the,
00:23:13.840
the difference is that, um, well, I guess there's two differences. Um, the main difference is that
00:23:21.380
because it's, um, uh, a crown corporation and because it's subsidized by taxpayers, it has a
00:23:30.420
responsibility to, uh, when it does something bad to take responsibility and try and make that better
00:23:36.520
and to be accountable for that. Where, as if you're in, uh, private media, you can make different
00:23:44.960
decisions that don't have anything to do with, uh, that have to do with your own morality as opposed to
00:23:50.300
how others may, may see you. So there's that difference. And there is also a very strong union
00:23:55.240
at CBC, which means that all the old people like me, uh, had jobs that were protected forever
00:24:00.580
and you would have had to have basically murdered your boss on video, which existed in those days,
00:24:06.460
um, uh, for you not to be supported. So, and meanwhile, the, the government grants and the,
00:24:15.640
uh, and the audience were declining. And so people, all of the old white people were supported
00:24:22.440
and all of the young people who wanted to have jobs, including people who were of color or some
00:24:29.380
kind of diversity, uh, we're, we're trying to get in and all there, there just weren't a lot of
00:24:35.340
positions in a, in a shrinking mainstream media world. And so like everybody, everybody is struggling
00:24:41.420
and CBC tried extra hard, but they did, they had racism problems. And part of what happened to me
00:24:46.460
was there was a, um, diversity inclusion, um, group that had been made all kinds of promises
00:24:53.860
about how there was going to be changes in terms of there would not just be old white people in terms
00:24:59.420
of, uh, uh, senior management and that there would be different rules in terms of what was considered,
00:25:05.620
uh, a bias or a whole bunch of promises made. And this group didn't feel like they were being
00:25:10.760
delivered upon, especially after changes in management. And, um, uh, so when I happened,
00:25:17.340
when the thing with me happened, it was just like enough already and George Floyd and COVID
00:25:21.940
and everything else enough already enough, enough, enough. And so, um, it became, it became
00:25:28.240
very much an issue and there'd been a change in management and, uh, and, uh, and a big focus
00:25:33.040
on, on, on, on trying to change things quickly. And I got swept up in all of that.
00:25:37.920
Um, speaking about CBC being a crown corporation, people having views about it, people have opinions
00:25:44.900
and passions about CBC that they just don't have about the other major networks. I guess
00:25:49.740
the other networks, they either, they either watch or they don't. And that's that CBC, there's
00:25:54.180
friends of CBC, an organization. There are people who put, uh, little signs on their yard saying I'm
00:25:59.520
a CBC supporter. On the other side, there are people who just love to criticize CBC and you can win
00:26:04.260
an entire conservative leadership race, just promising to trim the budget or even shut down
00:26:08.100
the whole operation. So strong are the passions felt on both sides. Do you think that's, that's
00:26:15.420
fair? And how, how did journalists in CBC respond to that atmosphere?
00:26:22.480
Well, I think that, uh, a lot of people have wanted to work for CBC, uh, because it has been
00:26:31.460
such, especially as, as, as journalists. Um, and there is this, I mean, it used to be that,
00:26:37.920
uh, there would be, I'm exaggerating, but there would be like three crews showing up for, uh,
00:26:44.580
CTVs, one crew and people would go, this is ridiculous. Um, those were the good old days.
00:26:48.660
Those, those days haven't existed for a long time. Uh, so now CBC, while, uh, struggling like
00:26:57.960
everybody else and while supported by the government, unlike everybody else, it's still
00:27:03.280
struggling and its audience is shrinking and the dollars are shrinking, the demands, the, the, uh,
00:27:08.600
the, uh, demands to be, uh, in time zones across the country in different languages and all of that.
00:27:14.300
It's, uh, it, it's really difficult. Like I, I'm, I'm doing a podcast now because I, I think that the
00:27:20.860
mainstream media, uh, world is shrinking and changing and some of that is natural and some
00:27:28.220
of that is good, but some of it is also because people, it used to be, you know, like when I was
00:27:33.380
a kid where there would be like three TV stations to watch. That was great. It used to be in Quebec,
00:27:38.120
there'd be three TV stations to watch and everybody watched the same thing. And, and the culture was so
00:27:42.620
cohesive. And now you've got YouTube and Instagram and Twitter and everything else,
00:27:46.860
TikTok. Um, and, and culture is, is changing. And I think CBC feels very much that it's changing and
00:27:54.900
that it needs to get ad revenue. And that's creating problems with journalists who are saying,
00:27:58.420
why are you selling our journalism as, uh, as, uh, disguised as advertising, even if it's not that
00:28:04.920
clear, but it's, it's a changing world and everybody is struggling. Right. There's a new
00:28:10.620
announcement that there'll be a streaming service that is ad supported, uh, out of CBC. And I know
00:28:15.980
management feels passionate about this as an opportunity for new revenues, but there are a lot
00:28:19.620
of criticisms and concerns about whether a public broadcaster should be doing this. And I guess
00:28:24.160
questions about, should CBC be like BBC in the UK, this large empire, or should it be sort of
00:28:29.460
constrained more to be like an NPR type operation? Where do you see the future of CBC?
00:28:34.920
That's not for me to say, especially now. Um, but I, uh, I, I am very grateful for the
00:28:41.060
opportunities that CBC gave me. My first job actually was with CTV. Um, but at CBC, I was able
00:28:47.120
to do, I was able to do shows that, uh, basically spoke for the underdog and I was able to do, I was
00:28:54.540
able to, uh, have support in time to like, when I first, like I was the first woman to cover a prime
00:29:00.180
minister for the CBC bureau, uh, on parliament Hill. Um, that is an opportunity that I am eternally
00:29:08.040
grateful for. Um, so, you know, while things didn't end well for me and I'm mad at CBC for
00:29:14.860
the certain ways that they handled me in the end, I, I still think it's, I still think it's necessary.
00:29:21.220
And while there's so much positive stuff happening with social media and all of the other, uh,
00:29:26.080
changes that we've seen in the last 10, 20 years, um, I, I, I think there's a lot of good and bad
00:29:34.400
in both mainstream media and in, and in social media. And this is the world that we live in.
00:29:41.200
I love the title of the new podcast, women of ill repute so far, your guests have been Mary Walsh,
00:29:47.080
Jody Wilson-Raybould, Jan Arden, your co-host Maureen Holloway. Are you all women of ill repute?
00:29:52.380
Yeah. Well, that's one of the reasons I've always seen myself as a woman of ill repute,
00:29:57.600
which is meant to be a compliment, by the way, it has, it has nothing to do with, uh, my having,
00:30:03.200
uh, said the N word and I thought defensive, of black people. And then realizing that I stupidly
00:30:09.980
realizing that I had, you know, hurt people and done the opposite. Um, but yeah, women of ill repute,
00:30:16.500
it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with, with fighting for things that you believe in
00:30:21.060
and not, uh, following perhaps the, the, you know, the roles or the rules that,
00:30:27.180
that were set out for you. So yeah, I mean, um, Maureen.
00:30:30.940
What are those rules? What were the rules that you were supposed to follow?
00:30:34.300
Well, I'm old now, so I'm hoping that the rules are changing, but I, I, I have a, a daughter who's
00:30:41.840
in her twenties and I have a lot of female friends who are in their thirties and forties and fifties.
00:30:45.520
And there are a lot of things that don't change. And, and for Maureen, like she, she's a comedian.
00:30:49.860
She did a, um, a morning show. She was on Q107 and on CHFI in Toronto, big, big, uh, morning shows
00:30:56.500
in Toronto. But before that she was a comedian and like, she was told, yeah, well, you're really
00:31:01.700
funny and everything, but you know, people don't really want to see funny women. They want to see
00:31:05.880
funny men. Um, I was raised by a woman who, you know, did not tell me to wear clean underwear and,
00:31:13.960
uh, keep my bangs out of my face and, uh, and smile and, and just be nice to everybody. I wasn't,
00:31:19.560
I wasn't, uh, my mother didn't teach me that. And she taught me different things. Uh, she taught me
00:31:25.680
how to fight for myself. She taught me how to believe in things. She taught me to tell the truth,
00:31:30.160
which, uh, I think there's a limit to like, she actually told somebody that they'd married a dork.
00:31:34.840
I don't, I don't think, I don't think that's necessary. So she probably went too far, but it's,
00:31:41.240
uh, yeah, the old rules about how women can't be funny. Women can't be ambitious women. Um,
00:31:47.480
they have to be married. They can't get divorced, all of those things. Um, they should always be
00:31:52.900
smiling. Um, I think those things are getting better for, uh, for women and, and for people in
00:31:59.160
general. I think people just need to, um, I think people need to fight for things that they
00:32:04.780
believe in, even if they're not the standard rules and that's, you know, obviously what's
00:32:08.860
happening in the States is different than what's happening in Canada. But, uh, but that's what I,
00:32:13.480
I don't, I don't reject all rules. I think some rules are, are important and the rules are always
00:32:18.720
changing and I believe in challenging the status quo. And I think I've done that in my career and I
00:32:22.940
believe in, I believe in change. Like when I was a kid, you know, people used to do jokes about
00:32:28.440
gay people. Um, don't do that anymore. I used to do jokes about, uh, black people don't do that in
00:32:35.260
Toronto anymore. It would bother me when I moved to Quebec that people were still telling jokes about
00:32:40.420
black people. I just, I've, I think I've, I've fought against that all my life. So when I talk
00:32:46.140
about, uh, rules, those, those are the rules that I mean, but I, I believe in, you know, trying to be
00:32:52.840
kind and trying to be good and trying to listen to each other. And, and I, I've, I've always tried
00:32:58.440
to do that, but I'm human and I've made mistakes like everybody else. Who are some other voices
00:33:04.260
we're going to hear from on this show? Cause I already see in the guests you've had so far
00:33:08.320
that, uh, one gets a sense of the, well, yeah, that, that these are people who don't give a damn
00:33:13.060
about the old rules. Uh, yeah, well the next person up, she's coming out on, uh, Tuesday. So it's funny
00:33:20.640
because we, I guess women of ill repute is meant to be, it's meant to be a compliment,
00:33:25.960
but it's also like, we're not going to, uh, interview women who have not challenged the
00:33:32.480
status quo in some way. Um, but we're also interviewing women who we find to be admirable
00:33:37.940
in some way. So, uh, I'm not going to give you the whole list of, of people, but we're, we're
00:33:43.260
talking to, uh, Marie Hennon, the lawyer. So she's, uh, she defended, uh, Jean Gomeschi
00:33:50.220
and, uh, he used to work at CBC of course, and, uh, she defended him and he was found to be not
00:33:56.280
guilty. Uh, and a lot of people say that the way that she fought for him, uh, did a disservice to
00:34:03.340
victims of sexual assault. So there, there's, but also like murderers deserve to, to have a good
00:34:10.600
defense that doesn't make their lawyer a murderer. Um, so we talked to her about, um, about-
00:34:17.900
Oh, you've teed me up some, I, I can't now ask you brought Gomeschi up. I didn't bring him up.
00:34:22.220
Now I have to ask you, what did you think about the Jean Gomeschi thing being a, at least a broader
00:34:29.180
Yeah, I never really knew him. So, uh, I had heard stories, but I never knew anything to be real.
00:34:35.840
So, uh, yeah, I'm hardly, hardly an expert on, on that situation. So sorry.
00:34:42.660
Well, and what did you think of that, that discussion? And I know you're just getting into this
00:34:46.300
before I interrupted you that Marie Heinen, like, what, it would have been different if a male
00:34:51.000
lawyer had said, well, I'm defending him because everybody deserves a defense. So I'm going to
00:34:54.260
defend him. But Marie Heinen, as, as a woman, somehow that wasn't acceptable.
00:35:00.320
Yeah. Uh, well, I found it very interesting that, that she was able,
00:35:08.140
she acknowledges in the interview and I, I, I, Maureen is going to kill me for giving too much
00:35:13.720
away here, but in the interview, she basically acknowledges that, that the system doesn't always
00:35:19.680
work for sexual assault victims. Um, and we know that most, not all women tell the truth, but that
00:35:27.540
the women who have actually been sexually assaulted, which often means rape, even though
00:35:32.560
that is not the word in law anymore, um, that they, uh, do not get a fair trial or they do not get a,
00:35:40.680
they do not get justice in the, in the system that very rarely, uh, do they come forward. And if they
00:35:46.440
do, I mean, I know lots of lawyers and judges who've said that, you know, if my daughter was ever
00:35:50.440
raped, I would not go through the process with her because she won't win. She'll just be destroyed.
00:35:55.680
So we, we talk about that. Um, and, and how, uh, it was, it was different for her as, as a female
00:36:03.520
lawyer who sees herself as a, as a feminist, even though she doesn't use that word, um, to defend,
00:36:11.400
uh, somebody like Gian Gomeschi. So, um, yeah, she was attacked as a woman and also she was attacked
00:36:18.620
as a woman for doing, uh, sexy photos of her, of her stuff. Like, really? Like, it's just, I don't
00:36:25.320
know. Lawyers are, are supposed to all wear buttoned down suits. I don't think so. So yeah,
00:36:29.900
we talk about that sort of thing. Wendy, you've referenced social media a few times here and I do
00:36:35.280
want to talk to you about just the nuts and bolts of news gathering, reporting, how journalism has
00:36:38.980
changed because increasingly I find, well, this has been going on for maybe 10 years now. So many
00:36:44.340
news stories now are just what's trending on social media. Who said this on social media,
00:36:48.920
pretend everything, pretend life is 140 characters long. You talked about the, the sort of viciousness
00:36:54.620
that I guess we can sometimes be exposed to on there. How has social media changed the general
00:37:00.700
news media landscape and where is it headed? Well, I remember back on my show undercurrents,
00:37:08.080
which was like at least 20 years ago, um, boy, 20 odd years ago. And we did stories on the sort of the
00:37:16.000
birth of, of social media and people's fixations with celebrities. And, uh, I didn't realize that it
00:37:23.000
would only explode from, from then. We sort of thought that, oh, wow, look at this. Like
00:37:28.000
everybody is, is obsessed now with what celebrities are saying. Um, and now, you know, it's, it's the,
00:37:34.460
Kim Kardashian's is the way too obvious example, but it, it does seem that, uh, we're now being
00:37:42.460
driven into these silos, which we've all heard about the, um, uh, where we all hate each other. Um,
00:37:49.380
as, uh, Roxanne Gay, who made a career for herself on social media, uh, wrote a book recently saying,
00:37:55.720
you know, it's, it's like everybody is a hammer in search of a nail and that's, that's how it feels.
00:38:00.900
Like I, I know that, uh, people don't believe in objectivity anymore, but I still argue for that
00:38:06.780
because I tried to be objective and people would think that I, and obviously I do have personal
00:38:12.240
opinions about things, but I always tried to be fair, to present two sides of an argument so that
00:38:18.140
people could make, make up their own decision about things. Um, and to me, that was being
00:38:24.820
objective and people would say, oh, no, no, no, that doesn't make any sense. Just let everyone
00:38:28.100
know what you think. And then they can, uh, figure out whether they want to believe you or they want
00:38:32.700
to believe somebody else. But that just basically drives us into this polarized world that we're
00:38:36.420
living in right now, where nobody even tries to tell you, uh, what's actually happening.
00:38:41.540
Instead, you just, you know, you read all your pals on whatever social media posts you're on,
00:38:45.640
or you read your, your favorite newspaper that supports what you want to believe in. And, uh,
00:38:50.520
and very few people make an effort to tell both sides of a story anymore. And, uh, anyway, so it ends
00:38:57.180
up that instead of talking to each other and trying to understand each other and trying to learn from
00:39:01.060
each other, uh, that we all hate each other, that we all say, I'm right and you're wrong, which is
00:39:05.640
not very helpful. And it has led to the world that we're living in right now. On the other hand,
00:39:12.000
you know, I remember being 12 years old and being so bored. And if I had a question,
00:39:18.000
I had to go to the library or look up on microfiche. So, you know, it's way better than now I have an
00:39:24.180
answer to, uh, Martha Mitchell. I remember her. I just watched this series on gas lit on TV and
00:39:29.880
Martha, John Mitchell and the whole Watergate thing. Cause I'm a Watergate kid. It was happening
00:39:33.520
when I was like 12, uh, and go back and read about that. It's all on Google. I can watch stuff on
00:39:38.860
YouTube. I can, if I'm on holidays, the first place I'll go is Twitter because everything is
00:39:43.680
there and I can put in a keyword and I can find stuff, but I'm only being sent stuff that the
00:39:48.980
algorithm says that I want to hear from. So, uh, I try and keep my mind open and read people of all,
00:39:55.540
you know, different opinions who I respect in different ways, uh, to keep my brain full.
00:40:00.140
Uh, so it's kind of wonderful. It's like, like I remember when video games came along,
00:40:04.220
that was going to kill it. You know, everybody was going to be a serial killer because they were
00:40:07.920
watching a video game, or if you're old enough, you remember the debates about how TV was going
00:40:12.380
to ruin everyone's life and we're all going to become worse people. And maybe we are, but TV,
00:40:18.160
video games, and now social media for the last 20 years, um, they're kind of here to stay. So I think
00:40:24.480
we just have to, uh, try and find a way of still talking to each other and not just talking to people
00:40:29.980
that we agree with. Yeah. The whole, we're all hating each other thing. I get the sense that
00:40:34.580
traditional media is probably amplifying it or worsening it rather than healing that.
00:40:39.360
I don't know. Does traditional media even, does anyone even read that anymore?
00:40:46.100
I have to say yes in hopes that people are still buying the newspaper.
00:40:49.420
Well, I don't have to say anything because I have a podcast, womenofillrepute.com,
00:40:54.380
go and sign up. I don't have to say anything that I don't want to say anymore, which is quite
00:40:58.720
liberating. Cause that, you know, at, at CBC and certainly as a political reporter,
00:41:03.400
you weren't supposed to have, uh, a sense of humor or any political opinions about anything.
00:41:08.900
Whereas now you're, it seems, uh, even at CBC or, you know, we've, there are people who'd like
00:41:15.040
tweet stuff about going to, uh, following drag Queens. Well, if I'd done that one, not that that
00:41:20.560
was my thing, but if that had been my thing and I tweeted that, it would have created a huge
00:41:25.520
sensation, which I think, and I think it's good. Like, why shouldn't you be able to tweet whatever
00:41:30.380
the, whatever the heck you want? There you go. Tweeting whatever the heck we want. And
00:41:36.880
that's kind of where, where we found ourselves at. Cause that's the state of social media,
00:41:41.480
maybe the state. Yeah, but we still need to talk to each other and listen to each other and learn
00:41:45.340
from each other and try and understand each other and maybe even forgive each other instead of just
00:41:49.540
saying, Oh, somebody said, they said this, so they're a bad person. And now I hate them. I don't
00:41:54.860
think that's very helpful. Have you been forgiven? Uh, I think a lot of people who actually
00:42:00.180
are familiar with my career and know that I devoted much of it to fighting corruption,
00:42:07.140
uh, fighting for the little guy, um, maybe not doing as well, obviously not doing as much as I
00:42:13.360
should have in terms of like, I remember, uh, I think I just left the Hill and Phil Fontaine started
00:42:18.820
talking about residential schools and I didn't, you know, stop and pay attention. Like I should
00:42:25.340
have paid attention to that. I, I, I said the N word without realizing, uh, that in any context,
00:42:31.720
it could hurt people. And that, did I really want to do that? Um, so, um, so yeah, I think we're,
00:42:38.380
we're all in a, in a, in a different spot now. Wendy Mesley, it's been a great conversation.
00:42:44.340
I admire your career. I admire your honesty. Thank you very much. Well, thank you. Thank you,
00:42:49.100
Anthony. That's it. Yeah. So women of ill repute me and Maureen, she's a comedian. I'm a journalist,
00:42:53.400
but we're both trying to be honest and, uh, that's, that's, that's the difference. So it's
00:42:57.820
been lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much. Likewise. All the best, Wendy. Thank you. Yeah. Thank
00:43:01.900
you. Bye. Full comment is a post-media podcast. I'm Anthony Fury. This episode was produced by
00:43:08.400
Andre Proulx with theme music by Bryce Hall. Kevin Libin is the executive producer. You can subscribe
00:43:14.060
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00:43:19.580
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