Full Comment - Best of 2022： ‘Used by the CBC’ — Wendy Mesley after the ‘N-word’ incident

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00:01:12.740 Hi, I'm Kevin Libin, the executive producer of the Full Comment Podcast.

00:01:18.120 Over the holidays, we're going to be running a couple of our favorite episodes of 2022.

00:01:22.780 This was one of our biggest episodes of the year.

00:01:25.840 Wendy Mesley was essentially canceled from the Canadian Broadcast Corporation for saying the wrong word.

00:01:31.880 She'd been a CBC rock star, an icon.

00:01:35.060 But in a meeting about racism, she uttered the N-word.

00:01:38.760 Never a good idea.

00:01:40.240 And despite her apologies, she was drummed out of a nearly 40-year career.

00:01:44.540 As she tells Anthony Fury, she thinks she was used, made into a sacrifice to the bigger problems in the CBC's internal culture.

00:01:55.320 Please enjoy the conversation.

00:01:57.060 And remember, you can always go back and listen to episodes of Full Comment that you may have missed from earlier this year or further back in our archive on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:02:08.540 I want to wish a Happy New Year to all our listeners, and we'll see you again with a whole new episode on January 9.

00:02:38.540 A remarkable career during a time that saw incredible changes in the media landscape.

00:02:44.040 Now, Wendy Mesley is the host with Maureen Holloway of a new show, the podcast Women of Ill Repute, which is described as being about people who don't give a damn about the old rules.

00:02:55.560 Mesley also told us more about her much-publicized departure from the CBC, an incident that involved the use of the N-word.

00:03:02.580 Wendy joins us today to talk about her career, her new show, the state of media today in Canada, including the future of the CBC, and so much more.

00:03:10.460 Wendy Mesley, welcome to the program. Thank you so much for joining us today.

00:03:13.960 Oh, you're very, very welcome. Lovely to be here, Anthony. How are you?

00:03:17.480 I am doing well, and how are you?

00:03:19.840 Good. I'm so happy to hear you mention Undercurrents, because that was my favorite show.

00:03:24.140 I loved doing that show. I had been a political reporter forever,

00:03:27.940 and I thought that there weren't really people who were investigating media or marketing or advertising or all of that stuff,

00:03:34.760 and I thought, woo-hoo!

00:03:36.420 And, of course, I soon learned why no other network was doing that.

00:03:40.320 It was because I was attacking my colleagues and attacking advertisers and so on,

00:03:45.460 but it was great while it lasted, and CBC, God bless them for that.

00:03:50.100 They let me do that show, so thank you for mentioning that. That was my favorite.

00:03:53.880 And, you know, it's funny, because I guess sometimes the things that people consider their own career highlights,

00:03:59.200 you know, people they've interviewed or places they've gone to, are not necessarily what the public would think.

00:04:03.960 Like you say, oh, the prime minister, what have you? Well, no, it was actually this or that.

00:04:07.500 What sort of anecdotes or interviews do you chalk as your favorites that perhaps we wouldn't first think of?

00:04:15.940 You know what? I think that's everybody's or so many people's first question and definitely a favorite question.

00:04:22.420 And I'm terrible. I used to think it was a guy thing, but I don't think it is.

00:04:25.440 I think it's just a person. I don't know.

00:04:29.560 I mean, there's certain interviews that I remember.

00:04:31.820 Like I remember asking Jean-Christien why his face was half frozen that everybody talked about,

00:04:37.940 but nobody ever asked him. And he gave me an honest answer.

00:04:40.540 Like I remember he said, yeah, I had this disease when I was a kid,

00:04:43.960 and now, you know, I talked to this other ear, and I hear better through that, and on we go.

00:04:48.520 So I thought that was like, I remember weird little moments as opposed to like,

00:04:53.980 I always wanted to interview Dolly Parton. And I, at one point at CBC, they said,

00:04:59.140 who of all the people in the world were doing something to fill time in the summer

00:05:02.940 when no one's spending any money. But who of all the people in the world would you like to interview?

00:05:08.760 And I said, Dolly Parton, this is like 10 years ago. And she wouldn't do it, wouldn't do it,

00:05:14.100 wouldn't do it. And then finally said, I won't come up and do it,

00:05:16.960 or I won't meet you and do it, but you can come to, what's it called?

00:05:20.540 Dollywood.

00:05:21.460 Yeah. And it was when I had booked to go away on holidays, and I couldn't go,

00:05:26.360 and it was awful. So that was my big, my big chance. So yeah, I guess I probably would have

00:05:31.500 remembered every word of that interview, but it never happened.

00:05:34.240 She does strike me as a genuinely just decent human being, Dolly Parton.

00:05:37.380 I know. Yeah. And she's such, you know, I mean, the fake boobs and all, which, 1.00

00:05:42.800 you know, as women were 50 years ago, raised to think, you know, anything you do to enhance your, 0.71

00:05:48.900 you should never do any of that. But she did it. She was open about it. Her music is great. She can

00:05:53.580 write a song in five minutes. And she's, she's just such an inspiration. I'm not a big music person,

00:05:59.480 uh, which Maureen Holloway, my, uh, uh, co-host on the new podcast that we're doing points out to me

00:06:05.940 all the time that I am really a mutant when it comes to, uh, pop culture. But to me, Dolly is

00:06:11.060 such a, such a great character. She's just, she's, she's used, she's, she's brilliant and she's a

00:06:17.240 brilliant business person and she's used her life to make life better for other people. So kind of a

00:06:21.740 cool person.

00:06:22.620 You know, Wendy asking, how are you doing now? I'm sure there's a lot of people who, who approach you

00:06:26.400 and probably ask you that question just because they're so used to you being in the background

00:06:30.280 of their lives with the television on seeing you every day. They haven't seen you for, for well

00:06:34.220 over a year and they're probably coming up to you on the streets and saying, how are you doing, Wendy?

00:06:38.580 Well, it's weird. Like people, uh, most of the people who come up to me are over 40 because it

00:06:43.680 seems that, uh, mainstream media now is, uh, only watched by people over 40 or maybe even older.

00:06:49.960 Um, so yeah, no, I'm doing fine. I, it was, uh, it was a heartbreaking thing that I went through at,

00:06:55.600 uh, at CBC. Um, uh, I mean, I can talk about that. I can, I wouldn't mind actually telling you

00:07:01.920 what happened because for a year I didn't, uh, didn't stand up for myself and didn't say anything

00:07:07.540 and sort of hope that things would get better. And, uh, and I think I was used by CBC to, uh,

00:07:13.240 basically say, uh, we have a racism problem and it's her. So let's all hate her. Um, so yeah, 0.93

00:07:20.480 basically what happened was I was on a phone call, uh, preparing a show, uh, uh, George Floyd

00:07:26.720 had been murdered by the cops a week earlier. We were doing something on, uh, racism in Canadian

00:07:32.100 media. And we had, uh, three black people who were going to come on to the journalists who were

00:07:36.920 going to come on and talk about what it was like in journalism. And anyway, so we were, I was talking

00:07:41.220 with other producers on the phone cause it was COVID time, the beginning of COVID time.

00:07:44.820 And, um, anyway, I was outraged that this woman who was going to be on our panel, 1.00

00:07:49.920 this journalist had said that she was called that all the time. And anyway, I was outraged by this

00:07:55.040 and, uh, kept going on. She was called the N word all the time. 0.99

00:07:57.940 She was called the N word all she said, she was called this all the time. So I wanted that to be

00:08:02.580 part of our panel discussion. And, um, I, I think I used the N word in the first reference and then I

00:08:10.360 used the whole word and cause I got caught up in the moment and I shouldn't have used it. And I

00:08:14.440 realized immediately that I'd hurt people and I apologized, uh, for using the word cause I should

00:08:20.380 have known better. Um, but it turned into like the next year I was basically portrayed by my

00:08:25.420 employer of almost 40 years as, uh, as being a racist and they never stood up for me. And, uh,

00:08:32.200 uh, so I, and I never fought for myself. So I, I think I, it, it kind of broke my heart actually. It,

00:08:38.200 uh, it was extremely, extremely difficult. So that took a year to resolve that. And during that I got

00:08:43.520 sick and my mom died and a whole bunch of other shitty stuff happened. Um, and then finally we

00:08:49.380 parted ways, shall we say? And, um, and now I'm doing this podcast. So I'm sort of a broadcaster,

00:08:55.940 but I'm more of a podcaster, not making any money, but if you want to sign up, uh, please do.

00:09:02.840 We're looking for sponsors. We're looking for like big bags of money to fall from the sky. So I'm,

00:09:07.280 I'm fine now, but it was, uh, it was a rather rough thing to go through when you look back on that

00:09:11.880 period. And you kind of say, you know, I didn't say it on the air. I, I apologize because I had

00:09:18.780 hurt people and should have known better and I deserve to be punished, but I didn't deserve the

00:09:22.960 punishment that I got, which was basically losing all credibility and my reputation and my job and

00:09:27.940 my show and everything else at CBC. So. Wow. Yeah. And losing your mother as well. I'm sorry to hear

00:09:33.720 about that very difficult. Yeah. Well, it's funny. I wrote, I think you want to ask me about the piece

00:09:39.620 that I wrote for the globe, uh, more than a year ago, but I wrote another piece, uh, that got

00:09:45.200 published on mother's day. So recently, um, and it was about, uh, my mother as being the original woman

00:09:52.380 of ill repute. Cause she basically raised me. She left my dad who I revealed in that piece was

00:09:58.420 gay. Um, back in those days, it was illegal to be gay. Um, he was going to go through psychotherapy

00:10:04.700 or whatever and see a psychiatrist and learn how not to be gay as if that's a thing. Um, 0.91

00:10:09.900 anyway, so obviously their marriage did not work out, but somehow I happened. And, uh, so I, I wrote

00:10:16.560 about how she basically went on and, and formed a life for herself and for me after leaving him and

00:10:23.100 how, um, she was the original woman of ill repute and that, you know, she wasn't, it took her seven 0.93

00:10:29.800 years to get, uh, custody of me and to get a divorce. And by the time she could date, she was 0.70

00:10:35.720 in her thirties. And in those days, uh, if you weren't married by 30, you're a spinster. Um, so

00:10:41.980 anyway, she never remarried and she raised me to, to fight for myself and to think a little bit

00:10:46.900 differently than a lot of women were raised to think in those days. And, um, yeah, so I, I, uh,

00:10:54.940 yeah, it was, it was difficult losing her, but she had dementia. So she was sort of slipping away

00:11:00.460 gradually. It was, uh, not, not a shock. Um, when she died.

00:11:06.200 There's so much to unpack about what you discussed there about your departure from CBC.

00:11:12.040 One thing I found interesting, you mentioned, and a year later, so there was the incident,

00:11:16.080 the meeting, um, which you promptly apologized for, realized you, you'd misspoken. And then a year

00:11:22.380 later, you feel like you're sort of the fall guy, the fall gal for this racism at the CBC

00:11:28.320 issue. How is that something that took it?

00:11:31.040 It didn't take a year. I, yeah, no, I felt that pretty immediately when it turned into,

00:11:35.320 uh, like two or three days in when I realized that it was going to be an HR, uh, and a union

00:11:41.960 thing and that they were going to basically allow everybody who wanted to portray me as a racist,

00:11:47.500 uh, to portray me as a racist, that like, I was mad from, uh, uh, or I was upset, mad at myself,

00:11:54.880 but also mad at CBC, uh, very early on. But when you work for CBC, you can either, um, and something

00:12:02.640 happens, you can either go with the process and try and figure it out and hope that, that, you know,

00:12:09.420 after 40 years and, and it had its own, its own problems with systemic racism of which it was

00:12:15.700 accused publicly at the CRTC and other places by CBC employees. Um, you would hope that I had hoped

00:12:23.160 that things could be worked out and that I could actually return. And it took, it took a year, but

00:12:27.700 you can't fight. You can't say anything. You can't fight for yourself. You can't say anything publicly.

00:12:31.900 So it took a year for me to say, okay, this is not going to work. We, neither of us sees the future

00:12:37.800 here. Um, so I'm going to leave. So it took a year for me to say, I'm going to leave and to have the

00:12:43.280 freedom to be able to say, I think the treatment of me was inappropriate and, uh, I'm, uh, I'm a free

00:12:50.500 person and, uh, I didn't agree to a gag order for whatever money might've been involved. And, uh,

00:12:56.840 I'm free obviously, or I wouldn't be speaking to you. Um, uh, that took a year. It didn't take

00:13:02.860 me a year to figure out that, uh, CBC and I, uh, were not in good terms.

00:13:07.820 So basically you were being spoken about by people for a whole year and, and I guess

00:13:11.580 perhaps misrepresented or smeared or called names for about a year on social media or the rumor mill

00:13:16.760 in the industry. And you're someone who's used to telling stories, telling people's stories for,

00:13:21.500 for many years. And you couldn't tell your own story at that point while other people were,

00:13:26.060 were speaking about you and speaking for you.

00:13:28.660 Well, I mean, this is a much broader discussion. I don't want to talk about smears or whatever,

00:13:32.920 but, um, uh, it is, it is a broader discussion of what's happening in social media is that,

00:13:38.520 you know, like my, so many normal people, like everyday people who are not in the media,

00:13:44.500 uh, they had no idea what happened because they're, they're not on, on Twitter or Insta or

00:13:49.420 other places that I was being denounced or even watching the national, which sort of denounced

00:13:54.440 me on air a few times. Um, yeah. Um, but I think that it's generally what's happening in media is

00:14:03.140 that people just read what their friends believe and, uh, and we're basically being taught to hate

00:14:10.920 each other. But during that whole period, yeah. I mean, people were saying all kinds of ridiculous

00:14:14.500 things about me that, and, and, and even other journalists believe that I had actually called

00:14:20.340 somebody the N word. Like I would never, I never have my long life. I have never called anybody

00:14:27.120 that. And I, I thought I had a reputation for fighting for underdogs and, uh, for not being

00:14:33.280 someone that would ever call somebody, uh, uh, a name. Um, I used the word, uh, and I thought I was

00:14:40.440 being supportive and outraged that somebody had actually been called that word, but, uh, but I

00:14:45.580 shouldn't have used it and I apologized. And I think, yeah, so I kept quiet for a year thinking that

00:14:50.080 CBC and I would, would work things out, but, uh, but we didn't. So it took me a year to read it.

00:14:55.920 And it's crazy to think that there's stories about your departure, but all the facts aren't filled

00:14:59.980 in, or there's a segment about you on the national. And again, the facts aren't filled

00:15:03.960 in. So people are left going, well, what did she do? Yeah. Well, somebody said to me, a friend of

00:15:08.540 mine said, well, because you didn't speak out because you didn't fight for yourself. Uh, people

00:15:13.800 think that, uh, the absolute worst must've happened, that it must've been way worse than what

00:15:18.400 actually happened. Um, and it's true. I mean, I think that is my biggest regret is that I, my mom taught

00:15:24.400 me to, to fight for myself. Um, and I didn't, I didn't, I didn't fight for myself, but if I,

00:15:29.980 if I had, I would have had to have left the CBC grieved the, the, the, uh, punishment that was

00:15:36.620 given me, I would have had to have, uh, sued them. And I just, that was, I don't, or, you know,

00:15:42.840 I could have gone the other way and attacked the people who didn't know what had happened and who

00:15:48.020 had made all kinds of assumptions and were using me to fight a cause. Um, and we're making assumptions

00:15:53.660 about me based on stuff that they didn't know, but I didn't want to attack them either. I didn't

00:15:57.080 really want to attack either the place I had worked for 40 years or for the people who were 0.96

00:16:01.700 fighting for issues that actually mattered a lot to me. So, uh, so I, yeah, I felt like the best

00:16:08.540 thing I can do is, uh, try and, and work this out. And then I realized that was not going to happen.

00:16:14.180 It seems definitely very bureaucratic, antiseptic, ungenerous to not discuss the nuances of your

00:16:20.300 situation. Um, that appear, it seems that that's what happened in the HR scenario there,

00:16:26.520 where I know there's debates over, is it acceptable to say this word as an example of a word one

00:16:31.520 shouldn't say, you know, people talk about different nuances. Well, it's said in lyrics

00:16:35.680 to songs all the time, kind of thing. You're just using it as example of a word you disapprove of

00:16:40.220 and so forth. And it's like, to your point, this word was not said in hostility. You weren't aiming

00:16:44.720 it towards anyone. You were speaking about it disapprovingly and you've acknowledged, you feel

00:16:49.960 you shouldn't have said it, you've apologized for it. And yet you still need to lose everything.

00:16:54.600 It's kind of like, where was the nuance in all of that? Yeah. Well, I, I, I don't think that there's

00:17:03.200 any excuse for, for saying the word and I should have known better. And that's why I apologize. And I,

00:17:08.720 and I think that people do need to be careful when they're hurting other people. You know, like my,

00:17:12.880 I, I take particular offense to what's called the C word, which everybody knows as well as they know

00:17:18.920 the N word. I would take particular offense to that. And my husband, you know, he's Irish and

00:17:27.000 thinks that that's, think that that's a word that you call everybody that you think is being a dick 0.98

00:17:31.840 in a certain moment. And he doesn't see it as offensive. So everybody sees things in different 0.86

00:17:37.240 ways and they can express themselves in different ways. I should have known better. I never

00:17:42.380 mean, like if I mean to hurt somebody, like when I was in marketplace and chasing crooked contractors,

00:17:47.360 I meant to hurt them, but I did not mean to hurt anybody by using that word. And I should have

00:17:53.340 known better. And I think, but I do think that context matters. There's a big difference between

00:17:58.440 fighting against somebody being called that and saying the word and calling somebody that,

00:18:03.400 which I would never have done in a million years.

00:18:06.380 Right. And I guess I just mean that there was no sense of that nuance in public discussion or

00:18:11.620 reporting of you, or perhaps in the HR process, it seemed to just be, okay, Wendy has to lose

00:18:15.780 everything now.

00:18:17.540 I, yeah, I don't want to speak for them. I can speak for myself, but yeah. And I think I've explained

00:18:24.380 sort of where I've come from.

00:18:26.980 When you talk about the punishment you received, what, what was that punishment?

00:18:29.560 Uh, well, there are some points that, um, in my, uh, there are some points that I'm not sure that

00:18:38.460 I can speak about, but, uh, it, it was probably the largest punishment, uh, given out, uh, to

00:18:45.620 anyone who was not fired. Uh, and then I ended up losing my job and my show and whatever. Anyway,

00:18:50.560 they, they, uh, the, the, the punishment, uh, at CBC can be, um, uh, not being paid for a period of

00:19:01.820 time. So I was not paid for a period of time and I had to go to sensitivity training. Um, and my show

00:19:08.220 was taken away from me and I was ultimately offered another job, which was to go back and basically,

00:19:14.500 you know, do a job that I did when I was 20 years old, which was, you know, read somebody else's copy.

00:19:20.560 I want to get your thoughts on a story up at cbc.ca right now. Prominent Radio Canada

00:19:26.040 personalities urge broadcaster to fight CRTC N word decision. Basically, there were a few

00:19:32.620 occasions, a number of occasions where a French Canadian employees of, of Radio Canada, part of

00:19:38.220 CBC, uh, had used the N word, I guess in a similar way that, that, that you had in terms of not using

00:19:46.160 it, uh, rudely to a person, but just as an example word, uh, they said this on the air.

00:19:51.760 I know it was established. You said it in a meeting and there was a complaint filed against

00:19:56.860 them and they're saying they want CBC to fight for them. These broadcasters and a lot of, uh,

00:20:03.100 prominent French broadcasters are standing up and saying, yes, you must fight for us, uh, to not

00:20:07.580 receive great punishments for this. I know they often do things differently in Quebec in a number

00:20:11.760 of ways than we do here in English Canada. What do you make of this story? Um, I don't want to make

00:20:17.340 a pronouncement about what Radio Canada or CBC should do, uh, but I have two comments. One is

00:20:23.700 that, uh, nearly all of the people who are saying how dare the CRTC get involved in this, uh, free

00:20:30.980 speech, uh, debate and tell Radio Canada what to say. Um, all of those people are 50 and older and

00:20:39.000 there's a lot of people and white, um, maybe not all of them, but I, but pretty much so. And I

00:20:46.140 happen to know a lot of people under 50 and a few people under 50 who are not white, who work at

00:20:51.980 Radio Canada and are not supportive and think that that nuance does matter. And there was no nuance,

00:20:57.960 um, expressed in that show, acknowledging that saying the word, um, could have, um, harmful or hurtful

00:21:06.600 effects on people. So there's that. And I would also like to point out that, uh, there was a

00:21:11.840 complaint, uh, made, uh, at CBC during this whole inward thing at CBC, as opposed to Radio Canada back

00:21:19.240 in the day when I said the word on the telephone, uh, to staff members, um, not accusing anyone of

00:21:27.140 being that, but being upset that somebody was called that. Uh, so the ombudsman at CBC looked into it and

00:21:32.260 wrote a report and nobody noticed that because there was a lot of blah, blah, blah, as there

00:21:37.940 always is in ombuds people's reports, wherever, wherever the institution is. Um, but they also

00:21:44.940 said that, uh, that the CBC broke its own ethical guidelines for, uh, uh, how they, how they covered

00:21:51.940 what happened to me. So, uh, yeah, there, there is, there is a difference. CBC decided to make an

00:21:58.960 example out of me, even though if you look at all the senior management, or if you look at all the

00:22:03.740 things that were said about, uh, CBC at the time and its own problems with, uh, with racism, um,

00:22:10.360 there, they decided to, uh, um, you know, take advantage of, of, uh, of my using the word and,

00:22:18.640 and my celebrity, I guess, Canadian style celebrity for whatever it's worth. Um, and, uh, there was a

00:22:25.800 very different approach at, uh, at Radio Canada. We'll be back with more full comment in just a

00:22:31.960 moment. Wendy, you mentioned CBC's problems with racism. CBC is a large organization, many employees.

00:22:40.100 Are the problems that CBC has faced, uh, particularly greater than at other institutions?

00:22:46.960 What is unique or specific to CBC's challenges as opposed to the challenges that, that other

00:22:53.220 organizations might face with racism? It is a, um, excuse me, it is a, uh, unique situation,

00:23:00.340 um, because I, I don't think that the issue of diversity or bigotry or racism or whatever is

00:23:07.740 any different or any worse. Uh, it might actually be better at CBC than a lot of places, but the,

00:23:13.840 the difference is that, um, well, I guess there's two differences. Um, the main difference is that

00:23:21.380 because it's, um, uh, a crown corporation and because it's subsidized by taxpayers, it has a

00:23:30.420 responsibility to, uh, when it does something bad to take responsibility and try and make that better

00:23:36.520 and to be accountable for that. Where, as if you're in, uh, private media, you can make different

00:23:44.960 decisions that don't have anything to do with, uh, that have to do with your own morality as opposed to

00:23:50.300 how others may, may see you. So there's that difference. And there is also a very strong union

00:23:55.240 at CBC, which means that all the old people like me, uh, had jobs that were protected forever

00:24:00.580 and you would have had to have basically murdered your boss on video, which existed in those days,

00:24:06.460 um, uh, for you not to be supported. So, and meanwhile, the, the government grants and the,

00:24:15.640 uh, and the audience were declining. And so people, all of the old white people were supported 0.99

00:24:22.440 and all of the young people who wanted to have jobs, including people who were of color or some

00:24:29.380 kind of diversity, uh, we're, we're trying to get in and all there, there just weren't a lot of

00:24:35.340 positions in a, in a shrinking mainstream media world. And so like everybody, everybody is struggling

00:24:41.420 and CBC tried extra hard, but they did, they had racism problems. And part of what happened to me

00:24:46.460 was there was a, um, diversity inclusion, um, group that had been made all kinds of promises

00:24:53.860 about how there was going to be changes in terms of there would not just be old white people in terms

00:24:59.420 of, uh, uh, senior management and that there would be different rules in terms of what was considered,

00:25:05.620 uh, a bias or a whole bunch of promises made. And this group didn't feel like they were being

00:25:10.760 delivered upon, especially after changes in management. And, um, uh, so when I happened,

00:25:17.340 when the thing with me happened, it was just like enough already and George Floyd and COVID

00:25:21.940 and everything else enough already enough, enough, enough. And so, um, it became, it became

00:25:28.240 very much an issue and there'd been a change in management and, uh, and, uh, and a big focus

00:25:33.040 on, on, on, on trying to change things quickly. And I got swept up in all of that.

00:25:37.920 Um, speaking about CBC being a crown corporation, people having views about it, people have opinions

00:25:44.900 and passions about CBC that they just don't have about the other major networks. I guess

00:25:49.740 the other networks, they either, they either watch or they don't. And that's that CBC, there's

00:25:54.180 friends of CBC, an organization. There are people who put, uh, little signs on their yard saying I'm

00:25:59.520 a CBC supporter. On the other side, there are people who just love to criticize CBC and you can win

00:26:04.260 an entire conservative leadership race, just promising to trim the budget or even shut down

00:26:08.100 the whole operation. So strong are the passions felt on both sides. Do you think that's, that's

00:26:15.420 fair? And how, how did journalists in CBC respond to that atmosphere?

00:26:22.480 Well, I think that, uh, a lot of people have wanted to work for CBC, uh, because it has been

00:26:31.460 such, especially as, as, as journalists. Um, and there is this, I mean, it used to be that,

00:26:37.920 uh, there would be, I'm exaggerating, but there would be like three crews showing up for, uh,

00:26:44.580 CTVs, one crew and people would go, this is ridiculous. Um, those were the good old days.

00:26:48.660 Those, those days haven't existed for a long time. Uh, so now CBC, while, uh, struggling like

00:26:57.960 everybody else and while supported by the government, unlike everybody else, it's still

00:27:03.280 struggling and its audience is shrinking and the dollars are shrinking, the demands, the, the, uh,

00:27:08.600 the, uh, demands to be, uh, in time zones across the country in different languages and all of that.

00:27:14.300 It's, uh, it, it's really difficult. Like I, I'm, I'm doing a podcast now because I, I think that the

00:27:20.860 mainstream media, uh, world is shrinking and changing and some of that is natural and some

00:27:28.220 of that is good, but some of it is also because people, it used to be, you know, like when I was

00:27:33.380 a kid where there would be like three TV stations to watch. That was great. It used to be in Quebec,

00:27:38.120 there'd be three TV stations to watch and everybody watched the same thing. And, and the culture was so

00:27:42.620 cohesive. And now you've got YouTube and Instagram and Twitter and everything else,

00:27:46.860 TikTok. Um, and, and culture is, is changing. And I think CBC feels very much that it's changing and

00:27:54.900 that it needs to get ad revenue. And that's creating problems with journalists who are saying,

00:27:58.420 why are you selling our journalism as, uh, as, uh, disguised as advertising, even if it's not that

00:28:04.920 clear, but it's, it's a changing world and everybody is struggling. Right. There's a new

00:28:10.620 announcement that there'll be a streaming service that is ad supported, uh, out of CBC. And I know

00:28:15.980 management feels passionate about this as an opportunity for new revenues, but there are a lot

00:28:19.620 of criticisms and concerns about whether a public broadcaster should be doing this. And I guess

00:28:24.160 questions about, should CBC be like BBC in the UK, this large empire, or should it be sort of

00:28:29.460 constrained more to be like an NPR type operation? Where do you see the future of CBC?

00:28:34.920 That's not for me to say, especially now. Um, but I, uh, I, I am very grateful for the

00:28:41.060 opportunities that CBC gave me. My first job actually was with CTV. Um, but at CBC, I was able

00:28:47.120 to do, I was able to do shows that, uh, basically spoke for the underdog and I was able to do, I was

00:28:54.540 able to, uh, have support in time to like, when I first, like I was the first woman to cover a prime

00:29:00.180 minister for the CBC bureau, uh, on parliament Hill. Um, that is an opportunity that I am eternally

00:29:08.040 grateful for. Um, so, you know, while things didn't end well for me and I'm mad at CBC for

00:29:14.860 the certain ways that they handled me in the end, I, I still think it's, I still think it's necessary.

00:29:21.220 And while there's so much positive stuff happening with social media and all of the other, uh,

00:29:26.080 changes that we've seen in the last 10, 20 years, um, I, I, I think there's a lot of good and bad

00:29:34.400 in both mainstream media and in, and in social media. And this is the world that we live in.

00:29:41.200 I love the title of the new podcast, women of ill repute so far, your guests have been Mary Walsh,

00:29:47.080 Jody Wilson-Raybould, Jan Arden, your co-host Maureen Holloway. Are you all women of ill repute? 0.93

00:29:52.380 Yeah. Well, that's one of the reasons I've always seen myself as a woman of ill repute,

00:29:57.600 which is meant to be a compliment, by the way, it has, it has nothing to do with, uh, my having,

00:30:03.200 uh, said the N word and I thought defensive, of black people. And then realizing that I stupidly 0.97

00:30:09.980 realizing that I had, you know, hurt people and done the opposite. Um, but yeah, women of ill repute, 1.00

00:30:16.500 it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with, with fighting for things that you believe in

00:30:21.060 and not, uh, following perhaps the, the, you know, the roles or the rules that,

00:30:27.180 that were set out for you. So yeah, I mean, um, Maureen.

00:30:30.940 What are those rules? What were the rules that you were supposed to follow?

00:30:34.300 Well, I'm old now, so I'm hoping that the rules are changing, but I, I, I have a, a daughter who's

00:30:41.840 in her twenties and I have a lot of female friends who are in their thirties and forties and fifties.

00:30:45.520 And there are a lot of things that don't change. And, and for Maureen, like she, she's a comedian. 0.63

00:30:49.860 She did a, um, a morning show. She was on Q107 and on CHFI in Toronto, big, big, uh, morning shows

00:30:56.500 in Toronto. But before that she was a comedian and like, she was told, yeah, well, you're really

00:31:01.700 funny and everything, but you know, people don't really want to see funny women. They want to see 1.00

00:31:05.880 funny men. Um, I was raised by a woman who, you know, did not tell me to wear clean underwear and,

00:31:13.960 uh, keep my bangs out of my face and, uh, and smile and, and just be nice to everybody. I wasn't,

00:31:19.560 I wasn't, uh, my mother didn't teach me that. And she taught me different things. Uh, she taught me 0.77

00:31:25.680 how to fight for myself. She taught me how to believe in things. She taught me to tell the truth,

00:31:30.160 which, uh, I think there's a limit to like, she actually told somebody that they'd married a dork. 1.00

00:31:34.840 I don't, I don't think, I don't think that's necessary. So she probably went too far, but it's,

00:31:41.240 uh, yeah, the old rules about how women can't be funny. Women can't be ambitious women. Um, 1.00

00:31:47.480 they have to be married. They can't get divorced, all of those things. Um, they should always be 0.99

00:31:52.900 smiling. Um, I think those things are getting better for, uh, for women and, and for people in

00:31:59.160 general. I think people just need to, um, I think people need to fight for things that they

00:32:04.780 believe in, even if they're not the standard rules and that's, you know, obviously what's

00:32:08.860 happening in the States is different than what's happening in Canada. But, uh, but that's what I,

00:32:13.480 I don't, I don't reject all rules. I think some rules are, are important and the rules are always

00:32:18.720 changing and I believe in challenging the status quo. And I think I've done that in my career and I

00:32:22.940 believe in, I believe in change. Like when I was a kid, you know, people used to do jokes about

00:32:28.440 gay people. Um, don't do that anymore. I used to do jokes about, uh, black people don't do that in 0.99

00:32:35.260 Toronto anymore. It would bother me when I moved to Quebec that people were still telling jokes about

00:32:40.420 black people. I just, I've, I think I've, I've fought against that all my life. So when I talk 1.00

00:32:46.140 about, uh, rules, those, those are the rules that I mean, but I, I believe in, you know, trying to be

00:32:52.840 kind and trying to be good and trying to listen to each other. And, and I, I've, I've always tried

00:32:58.440 to do that, but I'm human and I've made mistakes like everybody else. Who are some other voices

00:33:04.260 we're going to hear from on this show? Cause I already see in the guests you've had so far

00:33:08.320 that, uh, one gets a sense of the, well, yeah, that, that these are people who don't give a damn

00:33:13.060 about the old rules. Uh, yeah, well the next person up, she's coming out on, uh, Tuesday. So it's funny

00:33:20.640 because we, I guess women of ill repute is meant to be, it's meant to be a compliment,

00:33:25.960 but it's also like, we're not going to, uh, interview women who have not challenged the

00:33:32.480 status quo in some way. Um, but we're also interviewing women who we find to be admirable

00:33:37.940 in some way. So, uh, I'm not going to give you the whole list of, of people, but we're, we're

00:33:43.260 talking to, uh, Marie Hennon, the lawyer. So she's, uh, she defended, uh, Jean Gomeschi

00:33:50.220 and, uh, he used to work at CBC of course, and, uh, she defended him and he was found to be not

00:33:56.280 guilty. Uh, and a lot of people say that the way that she fought for him, uh, did a disservice to

00:34:03.340 victims of sexual assault. So there, there's, but also like murderers deserve to, to have a good

00:34:10.600 defense that doesn't make their lawyer a murderer. Um, so we talked to her about, um, about-

00:34:17.900 Oh, you've teed me up some, I, I can't now ask you brought Gomeschi up. I didn't bring him up.

00:34:22.220 Now I have to ask you, what did you think about the Jean Gomeschi thing being a, at least a broader

00:34:27.960 colleague?

00:34:29.180 Yeah, I never really knew him. So, uh, I had heard stories, but I never knew anything to be real.

00:34:35.840 So, uh, yeah, I'm hardly, hardly an expert on, on that situation. So sorry.

00:34:42.660 Well, and what did you think of that, that discussion? And I know you're just getting into this

00:34:46.300 before I interrupted you that Marie Heinen, like, what, it would have been different if a male 0.88

00:34:51.000 lawyer had said, well, I'm defending him because everybody deserves a defense. So I'm going to

00:34:54.260 defend him. But Marie Heinen, as, as a woman, somehow that wasn't acceptable. 0.99

00:35:00.320 Yeah. Uh, well, I found it very interesting that, that she was able,

00:35:08.140 she acknowledges in the interview and I, I, I, Maureen is going to kill me for giving too much

00:35:13.720 away here, but in the interview, she basically acknowledges that, that the system doesn't always

00:35:19.680 work for sexual assault victims. Um, and we know that most, not all women tell the truth, but that 0.81

00:35:27.540 the women who have actually been sexually assaulted, which often means rape, even though

00:35:32.560 that is not the word in law anymore, um, that they, uh, do not get a fair trial or they do not get a,

00:35:40.680 they do not get justice in the, in the system that very rarely, uh, do they come forward. And if they

00:35:46.440 do, I mean, I know lots of lawyers and judges who've said that, you know, if my daughter was ever

00:35:50.440 raped, I would not go through the process with her because she won't win. She'll just be destroyed. 1.00

00:35:55.680 So we, we talk about that. Um, and, and how, uh, it was, it was different for her as, as a female 0.94

00:36:03.520 lawyer who sees herself as a, as a feminist, even though she doesn't use that word, um, to defend, 0.99

00:36:11.400 uh, somebody like Gian Gomeschi. So, um, yeah, she was attacked as a woman and also she was attacked

00:36:18.620 as a woman for doing, uh, sexy photos of her, of her stuff. Like, really? Like, it's just, I don't 1.00

00:36:25.320 know. Lawyers are, are supposed to all wear buttoned down suits. I don't think so. So yeah,

00:36:29.900 we talk about that sort of thing. Wendy, you've referenced social media a few times here and I do

00:36:35.280 want to talk to you about just the nuts and bolts of news gathering, reporting, how journalism has

00:36:38.980 changed because increasingly I find, well, this has been going on for maybe 10 years now. So many

00:36:44.340 news stories now are just what's trending on social media. Who said this on social media,

00:36:48.920 pretend everything, pretend life is 140 characters long. You talked about the, the sort of viciousness

00:36:54.620 that I guess we can sometimes be exposed to on there. How has social media changed the general

00:37:00.700 news media landscape and where is it headed? Well, I remember back on my show undercurrents,

00:37:08.080 which was like at least 20 years ago, um, boy, 20 odd years ago. And we did stories on the sort of the

00:37:16.000 birth of, of social media and people's fixations with celebrities. And, uh, I didn't realize that it

00:37:23.000 would only explode from, from then. We sort of thought that, oh, wow, look at this. Like

00:37:28.000 everybody is, is obsessed now with what celebrities are saying. Um, and now, you know, it's, it's the,

00:37:34.460 Kim Kardashian's is the way too obvious example, but it, it does seem that, uh, we're now being

00:37:42.460 driven into these silos, which we've all heard about the, um, uh, where we all hate each other. Um,

00:37:49.380 as, uh, Roxanne Gay, who made a career for herself on social media, uh, wrote a book recently saying,

00:37:55.720 you know, it's, it's like everybody is a hammer in search of a nail and that's, that's how it feels.

00:38:00.900 Like I, I know that, uh, people don't believe in objectivity anymore, but I still argue for that

00:38:06.780 because I tried to be objective and people would think that I, and obviously I do have personal

00:38:12.240 opinions about things, but I always tried to be fair, to present two sides of an argument so that

00:38:18.140 people could make, make up their own decision about things. Um, and to me, that was being

00:38:24.820 objective and people would say, oh, no, no, no, that doesn't make any sense. Just let everyone

00:38:28.100 know what you think. And then they can, uh, figure out whether they want to believe you or they want

00:38:32.700 to believe somebody else. But that just basically drives us into this polarized world that we're

00:38:36.420 living in right now, where nobody even tries to tell you, uh, what's actually happening.

00:38:41.540 Instead, you just, you know, you read all your pals on whatever social media posts you're on,

00:38:45.640 or you read your, your favorite newspaper that supports what you want to believe in. And, uh,

00:38:50.520 and very few people make an effort to tell both sides of a story anymore. And, uh, anyway, so it ends

00:38:57.180 up that instead of talking to each other and trying to understand each other and trying to learn from

00:39:01.060 each other, uh, that we all hate each other, that we all say, I'm right and you're wrong, which is

00:39:05.640 not very helpful. And it has led to the world that we're living in right now. On the other hand,

00:39:12.000 you know, I remember being 12 years old and being so bored. And if I had a question,

00:39:18.000 I had to go to the library or look up on microfiche. So, you know, it's way better than now I have an

00:39:24.180 answer to, uh, Martha Mitchell. I remember her. I just watched this series on gas lit on TV and

00:39:29.880 Martha, John Mitchell and the whole Watergate thing. Cause I'm a Watergate kid. It was happening

00:39:33.520 when I was like 12, uh, and go back and read about that. It's all on Google. I can watch stuff on

00:39:38.860 YouTube. I can, if I'm on holidays, the first place I'll go is Twitter because everything is

00:39:43.680 there and I can put in a keyword and I can find stuff, but I'm only being sent stuff that the

00:39:48.980 algorithm says that I want to hear from. So, uh, I try and keep my mind open and read people of all,

00:39:55.540 you know, different opinions who I respect in different ways, uh, to keep my brain full.

00:40:00.140 Uh, so it's kind of wonderful. It's like, like I remember when video games came along,

00:40:04.220 that was going to kill it. You know, everybody was going to be a serial killer because they were

00:40:07.920 watching a video game, or if you're old enough, you remember the debates about how TV was going

00:40:12.380 to ruin everyone's life and we're all going to become worse people. And maybe we are, but TV,

00:40:18.160 video games, and now social media for the last 20 years, um, they're kind of here to stay. So I think

00:40:24.480 we just have to, uh, try and find a way of still talking to each other and not just talking to people

00:40:29.980 that we agree with. Yeah. The whole, we're all hating each other thing. I get the sense that

00:40:34.580 traditional media is probably amplifying it or worsening it rather than healing that.

00:40:39.360 I don't know. Does traditional media even, does anyone even read that anymore?

00:40:44.780 Or listen to that anymore?

00:40:46.100 I have to say yes in hopes that people are still buying the newspaper.

00:40:49.420 Well, I don't have to say anything because I have a podcast, womenofillrepute.com,

00:40:54.380 go and sign up. I don't have to say anything that I don't want to say anymore, which is quite

00:40:58.720 liberating. Cause that, you know, at, at CBC and certainly as a political reporter,

00:41:03.400 you weren't supposed to have, uh, a sense of humor or any political opinions about anything.

00:41:08.900 Whereas now you're, it seems, uh, even at CBC or, you know, we've, there are people who'd like

00:41:15.040 tweet stuff about going to, uh, following drag Queens. Well, if I'd done that one, not that that 0.93

00:41:20.560 was my thing, but if that had been my thing and I tweeted that, it would have created a huge

00:41:25.520 sensation, which I think, and I think it's good. Like, why shouldn't you be able to tweet whatever

00:41:30.380 the, whatever the heck you want? There you go. Tweeting whatever the heck we want. And

00:41:36.880 that's kind of where, where we found ourselves at. Cause that's the state of social media,

00:41:41.480 maybe the state. Yeah, but we still need to talk to each other and listen to each other and learn

00:41:45.340 from each other and try and understand each other and maybe even forgive each other instead of just

00:41:49.540 saying, Oh, somebody said, they said this, so they're a bad person. And now I hate them. I don't 0.96

00:41:54.860 think that's very helpful. Have you been forgiven? Uh, I think a lot of people who actually

00:42:00.180 are familiar with my career and know that I devoted much of it to fighting corruption,

00:42:07.140 uh, fighting for the little guy, um, maybe not doing as well, obviously not doing as much as I

00:42:13.360 should have in terms of like, I remember, uh, I think I just left the Hill and Phil Fontaine started

00:42:18.820 talking about residential schools and I didn't, you know, stop and pay attention. Like I should

00:42:25.340 have paid attention to that. I, I, I said the N word without realizing, uh, that in any context,

00:42:31.720 it could hurt people. And that, did I really want to do that? Um, so, um, so yeah, I think we're,

00:42:38.380 we're all in a, in a, in a different spot now. Wendy Mesley, it's been a great conversation.

00:42:44.340 I admire your career. I admire your honesty. Thank you very much. Well, thank you. Thank you,

00:42:49.100 Anthony. That's it. Yeah. So women of ill repute me and Maureen, she's a comedian. I'm a journalist,

00:42:53.400 but we're both trying to be honest and, uh, that's, that's, that's the difference. So it's

00:42:57.820 been lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much. Likewise. All the best, Wendy. Thank you. Yeah. Thank

00:43:01.900 you. Bye. Full comment is a post-media podcast. I'm Anthony Fury. This episode was produced by

00:43:08.400 Andre Proulx with theme music by Bryce Hall. Kevin Libin is the executive producer. You can subscribe

00:43:14.060 to full comment on Apple podcasts, Google, Spotify, and Amazon music. You can listen through the app

00:43:19.580 or your Alexa enabled devices. You can help us by giving us a rating or a review and by telling

00:43:24.060 your friends about us. Thanks for listening.

Full Comment - December 26, 2022

Best of 2022： ‘Used by the CBC’ — Wendy Mesley after the ‘N-word’ incident

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