BEST OF 2025： How a few rich dairy farmers are sabotaging Canada’s big, beautiful trading future
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Summary
In this week's episode, we chat with former liberal MP and long-time critic of supply management, Martha Hall Finley, about her thoughts on the trade dispute with the United States and what it means for Canada's economic future.
Transcript
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getting down to the bottom of the trade dispute with the united states it's something we tried
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to do quite often in 2025 here at full comment hello i'm brian lily your host and this is a
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best of episode from the 2025 season i want to take a moment to thank you the audience all the
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listeners for making it a great 2025 season and we're hoping for an even better 2026 i'm sure
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that this issue of the trade dispute with the united states is going to continue to come back
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it was one of the main things we talked about all year we had a discussion with carlo dade and ian
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lee about what the america first movement wanted economically that episode was wildly popular so
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too was an episode with martha hall finley she's a former liberal mp currently director of the
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university of calgary school of public policy she's also a long-time critic of supply management and
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feels that it was a giant mistake for canada's parliament to unanimously pass a bill that would
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say supply management can never be part of trade negotiations she believes that just a handful of
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dairy farmers are ruining it for everyone here is that conversation
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donald trump was able to kill off canada's digital services tax without much of an effort or pushback from
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mark carney's liberal government in ottawa will supply management be next and what about canada's
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trade future hello and welcome to the full comment podcast my name is brian lilly your host this week
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we want to take a deep dive into trade canada's prosperity as well as our future in some ways is
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at stake the americans are moving away from their negotiated trade deal with us we've trying to get
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tariffs off of that and there are trade irritants like the digital services tax which will soon be gone
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and of course supply management martha hall finley is a former liberal mp from toronto she's been in
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western canada for many years first is president and ceo of the canada west foundation now is president
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and chair of the school of public policy at the university of calgary and trust me when i tell you
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she's got some strong opinions on supply management and why she believes it needs to go for the good of
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canada never mind what it means for our trade negotiations we caught up with each other at her office
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in downtown calgary on the margins of the stampede here's our conversation so martha how do you view
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things right now is canada in a trade war are we at a hinge moment as prime minister carney likes to
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say that's one of his favorite phrases uh are are we just dealing with a transformational president
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for good or for bad who is out to adjust the global trading system i think it might be a bit of all
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three um there's no question that we have a moment in time right now for canada it it's interesting i
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mean i i struggle with saying thanks to donald trump in the same sentence but there's no question what's
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happened south of the border has really forced an awful lot of canadians and and and therefore
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canadian politicians but forced an awful lot of canadians
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to have a much better maybe more realistic look at our own economic situation so we have two big
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problems one is yeah we are significantly dependent on the united states and we have not diversified
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enough to expand those opportunities and just take away from the united states as a market because
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geography will will dictate that that will always be a huge market for us um but we have have really not
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taken advantage of the opportunities in the indo-pacific for example or or in other parts of the world
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partly because the america because the united states has been so easy for us um but you know donald trump
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has clearly made made an awful lot of people realize maybe that reliance on the united states
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needs to be um looked at carefully and and force us to look at other opportunities elsewhere in addition
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not just not to to move away too much from the states but the other thing is a realization that
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our own economic house needs some real work our productivity numbers are terrible our uh competitiveness
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compared to you know most of the countries that we compare ourselves to is is down investment has
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challenged has been challenged for a long time i would say not just the last 10 years i would say
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we've we've we've struggled the last 25 years um for a variety of reasons so this isn't just a
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partisan it's not a partisan comment i think we just have had some real challenges in canada for 25 years
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um is this a hinge moment as as a prime minister likes to call it there's no doubt in my mind this is
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a moment for canada right whether whether it's how do we do better in terms of our relationship with
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the united states how do we avoid tariffs how do we enhance that kind of economic engagement
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whether that's with trump or a successor to trump or you know what happens after the midterms whether
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he becomes less powerful the fundamental is we still need to work very closely with the united states
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and we we've benefited from that open trade we should work to continue to do that but we also have
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an awful lot of work in canada to get our house in order and this is a moment in time for us we've had
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clearly challenges in building infrastructure we are a trade dependent nation we are therefore
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dependent on trade infrastructure and we have not invested whether it be ports whether it be
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additional rail whether it be yes even more highways whether it's pipelines absolutely we have
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not done a very good job in the last quarter century of building the infrastructure that a trade
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dependent country um depends on and so is this a moment in time for canada because we've been forced
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to recognize our economic challenges absolutely are we in a position to take advantage and finally
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work at getting things right um i sure hope so but we're in early days so far the the words are
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sounding good the language is good um but as we've seen too many times words don't always get followed
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uh with action and so here's you know really hoping that we'll see action finally um to really get this
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country back onto the road of of the prosperity that we really ought to be able to see you mentioned in
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that answer about um diversifying trade i looked at some stats from a while back and in the 1890s when
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canada was very much a part of a very big and burgeoning british empire we sent about 60 61 percent
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of our exports to either the uk or countries of the empire and we were also reliant on them for defense
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now we're reliant on the united states for defense and we send more than 75 percent of our exports to the
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united states so did we just trade one empire for the other that we're reliant upon oh goodness i
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had not have thought of that uh that's an interesting question uh well one i'm not sure it's a question of
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reliance i think it's more a question of opportunity and of course over that period of time the united
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states has became way more way bigger way more powerful economically but also if i remember
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correctly there were significant um there were barriers perhaps to to trade i'd have to go back
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and look but there were certainly um uh fewer trade barriers like fewer tariff barriers between canada and
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the uk and the empire the other empire countries at that time yeah um so that might have also been a part
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of that but look we're we're not that big we're obviously geographically very big which does create
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certain challenges for us but we're not very big and and we're sizable economically but compared to the
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united states um we have no choice but to recognize that we are not their equal we will not be their
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equal economically we will not be their equal militarily and so i think over the last you know
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century and a half two centuries and certainly the last few decades it's been more opportunity than
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anything else i there's no question now given some of trump's um sloganeering and and language
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that the comfort we've had with that relationship has been put on edge but i don't i i don't see
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the united states as being necessarily similar vis-a-vis canada to what was our relationship
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as a member of the commonwealth so many years ago but in terms of that size that you mentioned how do we
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compensate for that you know we're important trading partners but when you look at the numbers
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about 20 percent of our gdp relies on trade with the united states theirs is less than two percent i
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think it's 1.6 1.7 and we see that with the uh the backtracking on the digital services tax which by the
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way i think was the right thing to do i think prime minister carney played it horribly by saying
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oh no we're moving forward with it and then you know less than two hours before midnight when it's
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about to kick in says we'll get rid of it but getting rid of it was the good idea but on other
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issues we're just going to face the fact that they have a lot an awful lot of power i'm not going to
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use trump saying that they have all the cards but they've got an awful lot of power over us and leverage
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they absolutely do but and and and just i can't resist but on the digital services tax
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we should as canada we should have waited and kept with the much larger group of countries that
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were trying to work on this collaboratively our decision a couple years back to go it alone
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um which a couple of other countries have as well but for canada to do that set us up for a problem
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um it has been an irritant with the americans not just donald trump right from the time we said we're
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going we're not going to we're not going to wait for this other group of countries the oecd
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countries exactly so um you know i my preference would have been not to have gone down that path in
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the first place and then having to rescind it because and of course it's not rescinded right it's just
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we're not charging it there's i mean they've promised that they'll bring in legislation to
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rescind it but you're right it is still on the books but you know in terms of strategy um if they
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had announced the um the week before it was supposed to come into effect look we're going to put a pause
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on this it still could have been a bargaining chip and what i kept hearing from liberal mps and insiders
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was well we're using it as a bargaining chip to try and get something bigger that's why we haven't
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gotten rid of it but you know we'll get rid of it but not yet because we need it for bargaining
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and then they they gave it up with getting absolutely nothing but a resumption of talks in
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return i i don't we i'm not hearing that it was for nothing um and i don't know yeah and i there's an
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awful lot going on behind the scenes that that neither one of us is privy to i don't my my understanding
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is that there is a lot more going on behind the scenes that there may have there may have been
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some bargaining who knows there might have been some of this discussion uh at can and ask us but
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you know digital services tax you know my views on supply management like oh we'll get into that
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that's on the list can we please because my gosh um but i i i just i think there's a real
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with all of this there is a moment now for canada to actually do the right things for canada
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not just for donald trump we shouldn't be just playing around and and it's not playing we shouldn't
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be reacting and you know and trying to figure out what what how we can best donald trump we're not
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we're not going to economically we there's the best way to deal with the fact that we have an elephant
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to the south of us is first understand that we have a relationship with an elephant and that comes
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with some opportunities and it comes with some challenges without question being pragmatic is
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probably the best strategy canada could embark on when you talk about that trade imbalance though
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there are a couple of nuances a big amount of that trade that we have with the united states are
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our exports to the to the united states is of course oil right and they need that oil the gulf coast
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refinery complex needs canadian oil they need it's it's all set up for canadian heavy so that's
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there's there's definitely some power some influence there we it may you know maybe not long long term
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but right now that is a bit of a bargaining uh i wouldn't say it's a bargaining chip because we're not
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going to cut it off but it's a recognition that it's that there are certain strengths and weaknesses
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that are a little more nuanced than just the top level trade numbers the other thing though but
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but just to finish the other thing is that that trade balance that canada has with some of the
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some of the states like 30 different states of the united states actually do trade heavily with canada
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and so i've been saying this right from the beginning our best allies in dealing with donald trump's
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tariff nonsense are in fact americans they're the americans in a number of those states number of
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the manufacturers that are now being hurt by some of the tariff impositions if you know you're dependent
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on canadian steel and aluminum your your prices just went up and so you're going to be not happy about
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that that the the biggest allies we have the biggest strength we have right now is frankly with a
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whole lot of americans especially in those states and especially in those manufacturing sectors who
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are hurting more from donald trump's tariffs than we are yeah and i think that um ontario premier doug
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ford has been very good on that working those connections going to the meetings with governors
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and pointing that out you know it's going to require the americans actually making that point
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in washington to the audience of one but it helps that the conversation is there but you mentioned about
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oil and we're not going to cut it off so this is where i'm going to tap into your roots as an
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easterner now in calgary so i get the pre the position of alberta premier danielle smith this is
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a non-starter i get it politically economically so many reasons but out east you listen to an awful
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lot of the commentary oh why won't they just cut it off they're not on team canada they don't care
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about the country um the premier's a traitor uh you know all of these things that you hear from folks
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that never leave rosedale or westmount and uh don't really have a sense of why that would be
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an unthinkable idea out here so help help those folks understand well a couple of things um i i the
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the premier was forced into a bit of that corner because um one of our federal ministers made the
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comment that we should cut off oil exports that or you know put a tariff on our own tariff on whatever
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a couple of points that are really important for everybody in this country to remember
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is that oil and gas exports are a massive part of the entire canadian economy so everything that we
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benefit from in terms of prosperity is significantly dependent on our oil and gas exports so this is a
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canadian enterprise this is not just alberta um totally you know in a number of ways the the oil
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oil industry here depends on all sorts of um manufacturing inputs service inputs from across
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the country so this industry is a canadian industry and the taxes and the benefits and the economic
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prosperity all actually go to all of canada and all of canadians that's something we do not talk about
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enough and has to be repeated the other thing is that same minister didn't come out and say
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and maybe we should put a hold on potash exports that same minister didn't come out and say we should
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put a hold on auto pick your manufacturing sector into in ontario such as auto or you know auto parts
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um so i recognize that sometimes things get said that are you know emotional but i will say that um
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the premier of alberta really got pushed into a spot because of a federal minister picking on only
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oil exports from alberta and and it came especially under the previous government after a decade of
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saying we don't want your resources we don't want your pipelines etc etc and then it became we want to use
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it as a bargaining chip um please let us cut off your uh your lifeblood the the the the the the nerve of
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absolutely that brian um 10 years of really having a thumb on the opportunities here the prosperity here uh
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the potential prosperity again not just for here but for the whole country but um and then and then turning
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around and saying but we're gonna you know we're gonna use you to get to to to serve as a bargaining
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chip um it was it was deeply offensive to people here and i you know you you started this by saying
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you know i'm an easterner well i've been here for 12 years uh now but i do i i think of myself as a
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canadian by far and away more than i think of myself as having been from ontario or being an alberton
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i fit i think of myself as a canadian and i have always been a free trader i have always been and for somebody
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as old as i am i'll always say it's actually a long time um uh but but but as long as i can remember
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i've been a free trader for as long as i can remember i've been a big supporter of canada um embracing the fact
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that we are blessed with resources of all kinds there are people around the world who literally would kill
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to have the opportunities and the resources that we are blessed with in this country and we shoot
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ourselves in the foot over and over um for whatever reasons i mean certainly on the on the climate piece
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the the irresponsibility of of the this the most recent government and the prior government didn't
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we didn't build a whole lot under that government either so this is you know i want to make that clear
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but this last government the absolute irresponsibility of a federal government suggesting and implementing
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policies that somehow suggested that canada could solve the global climate challenge on its own was
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um well irresponsible i i it just very frustrating there were proposals put forward to help reduce global
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emissions by using canadian oil and gas letting lng exports replace coal and that was laughed at uh by
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by the trudeau administration oh no no we can't do that we just have to lower canada's emissions not
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worry about what's happening in india and china and south korea and places that wanted our product the
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focus the in there's so much ideology there and and and let me be clear about one thing um i hate it when
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people say that i always try to be clear it's like let me let me be honest here well i gotta try to be all the time um
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an awful lot of those people have been well-meaning an awful lot of those people are not bad people but they saw
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climate as the existential challenge for the for the world and felt that canada
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um had the most important thing for canada was to meet our climate goals our paris commitments
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canada has never done that has never met its goals we have an unfortunate history of of having
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um aspirations but never actually being able to come through and um knowing that what was happening in
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china and india and in other places all around the world that somehow canada could on its own by
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meeting our paris commitments have any kind of realistic impact on the global climate change
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challenge was completely nonsensical and that's why i say i think you know the the politicians suggesting
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that we could do that and at the expense of the canadian economy canadian prosperity was was
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irresponsible um it's it's well-intentioned but we uh unfortunately have uh for 10 years been shooting
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ourselves in the foot so that a few people could pat themselves on the back and what we're seeing now
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is a much greater recognition ironically from one of the most vocal and influential people in the climate
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change challenge uh world you're talking mark carney um you know i give him full marks for for
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recognizing he's now he's now prime minister canada and as john manley likes to say and i think he's
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absolutely right natural resources this is our family business and mark carney's now he's kind of the head
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of the family and so his first responsibility is to this country and he's recognizing canada's not going
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to solve climate change we can play our part we're still you know i was part of the pathways alliance
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the the oil sands pathway pathways alliance to reduce emissions um the industry has been reducing
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emissions um per barrel dramatically over the last number of years anyway um those those are really good
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goals but i i give i give mark carney full credit so far because the words are right as i said earlier we
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need to see the actions but um i give him full credit for being able to say um my circumstances
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are this the world's circumstances have changed and we now to get need to get on with this and i
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so far i'm i'm impressed i think these are these are the right things to do for the prime minister of
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canada well and you're even hearing that he's saying the right things um from people like Saskatchewan
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premier scott mo and from alberta premier danielle smith and i even ran into premier smith at uh
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an event here at stampede and she said you know we'll see if the results turn out but so far he's
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saying the right things and that gives her hope we'll take a quick pause here but when we come back
00:23:32.360
let's get into supply management because i know you have some thoughts and and so do uh the listeners
00:23:39.320
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this is tristan hopper the host of canada did what where we unpack the biggest weirdest and wildest
00:25:15.320
political moments in canadian history you thought you knew and tell you what really happened stick
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around at the end of the episode to hear a sample of one of our favorite episodes if you don't want
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to stick around make sure you subscribe to canada did what everywhere you get podcasts so just before
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we entered into these new negotiations with the americans to try and get an extra a different trade
00:25:38.040
deal uh a new you smacker a new kuzma whatever you want to call it we decided to pass a bill put forward
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by the leader of the separatist party uh y francois blanchet to say that canadian uh diplomats and trade
00:25:51.720
negotiators were forbidden by law from talking about supply management at all not dismantling
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it but talking about it martha you know you've got a track record on supply management but my
00:26:04.440
discussions with your uh the americans including uh ambassador pete hoekstra is they don't want to get
00:26:10.600
rid of supply management but they do want greater access for their uh producers whether it's a bigger
00:26:17.800
quota or something and they just feel like we try and use supply management to block them at every turn
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um do can we negotiate away some quota or should this system just be dismantled wow a lot of parts to
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that um i'll take a couple of bits just one at a time so first we already have a deal with the united
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states it is the usmca kuzma nafta the new nafta we have a treaty a trade deal with the united states
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it is the law of both of all three countries because remember it includes mexico so it is very dangerous
00:27:02.360
to talk about negotiating a new deal or whatever because in some way like language matters in some
00:27:10.280
ways that kind of con that kind of language only feeds into donald's donald trump's view that he
00:27:15.960
can just throw it away because he can't um i mean he clearly has been throwing it away since he brought
00:27:23.800
in the tariffs on liberation day so so that said we have the realities of a president who seems to be
00:27:30.840
getting away with executive actions without the consequences and without without the enforcement of the
00:27:38.120
legal constraints that he really should be facing so there's a whole bigger question there but that is
00:27:43.960
the pragmatic that the practical challenge that we're facing now but i think it's worth repeating
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that we do have a deal now now if we can just talk about that deal for a moment though like the americans
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have been complaining about how we handle dairy since basically the day after the deal was signed
00:28:02.280
and the biden administration took us to trade panels twice and you know you've forgotten more
00:28:08.360
about supply management than i'll know but my understanding i was talking with sylvain charlebois
00:28:12.920
about this a little while ago and he said well the problem is the americans negotiated quota
00:28:17.640
access for their producers but the holders of that quota are canadian cheese producers like saputo or
00:28:24.680
armstrong and they just say we're not buying any of your milk and so that creates the irritant of
00:28:31.320
wait a minute we thought we had a deal and you're just still blocking us which seems like a a bad move
00:28:39.160
when you look at the totality of our trade deal so so oh there's so many parts to this so let me i
00:28:50.280
don't i don't disagree with any of that but the issue is much much larger than um some frustration that
00:28:59.320
maybe the deal wasn't clear clear enough or that the canadian side has has been not adhering to it
00:29:06.040
completely well i don't disagree with any of that but the issue is much larger and and it's not just
00:29:11.560
the americans the entire world is frustrated with canada's supply management um regime because it uh
00:29:18.920
basically enforces ridiculously high tariffs on any dairy uh poultry and egg uh imports into canada and so
00:29:27.080
that's frustrating i mean you know we're not a tiny market we're resizable and um producers around the
00:29:32.760
world get frustrated when we go to negotiate trade deals like our trade deal with europe or the trans
00:29:38.680
pacific partnership trade deal the the people are are pretty frustrated with canada because we
00:29:43.880
we say sure we'd love to have free trade but oh by the way you can't sell us any in effect you can't
00:29:49.480
sell us cheese milk yogurt you know yogurt ice cream so so it's a much larger issue parsing out
00:29:58.200
a couple of the things you said one is this new bill that is about to achieve uh to get royal assent
00:30:05.480
that was brought in in this new government as you said by the uh the the bloc quebecois and passed
00:30:11.640
unanimously though and passed unanimously in the house the last government just before the last government
00:30:19.480
um ended there was a similar bill that had been put forward by the uh the bloc quebecois that
00:30:27.160
richie and she almost i don't think it was completely unass but almost unanimous consent in the house bill
00:30:32.360
282 it then went to the senate and the senate and i want to do a shout out to a couple of senators peter
00:30:39.160
harter and peter beam who did yeoman's work in getting the senate to do what the senate is supposed to
00:30:46.520
do sober second thought the senate hearings the senate committee worked on this
00:30:52.120
had tons of investigation into the issue importantly it was not actually to be a referendum on supply
00:31:02.440
management it was the concept of carving any sector any part of our economy out of any future trade
00:31:12.280
negotiations is something no country in the world has ever done let me just say trade negotiation means
00:31:20.040
negotiation and this as soon as you say oh but we'll negotiate everything except for that piece
00:31:27.480
destroys the concept and so many of us who appeared before the senate on this said this is not if you did
00:31:33.640
this on the auto sector if you did this on steel and aluminum we would say we would say the same thing
00:31:39.160
you must not carve out a sector from trade negotiations because then you've tied you've
00:31:45.320
really tied you know one hand behind your back so this is a nuance it's really important to understand
00:31:52.360
this new bill came in virtually the same and i have to say the senators that i've spoken to um have
00:32:00.680
did not do it again because their view was at a certain point the senate does have to respect what
00:32:07.080
they see as the will of the people if the house of commons completely abrogated any responsibility
00:32:13.240
for appropriate committee hearings on this bill is the house of commons's fault and we as canadians
00:32:18.360
have to be critical of that but i can understand you know the senate works so hard to deal with 282
00:32:25.160
that it just it the the will was not there to do it on this bill so this bill is going to pass you've
00:32:30.920
got every party and every mp that's voting saying they're backing this why the stranglehold you know
00:32:37.720
i was talking to some um farmers in saskatchewan the other day and they they just blame quebec and
00:32:45.240
it's quebec farmers and there's a bit of truth to that i think parts of ontario and and and their
00:32:50.040
pockets i mean look there's a very strong dairy lobby in in alberta too there are a small number of very
00:32:56.040
wealthy um dairy farmers here now the the entire entire country um when supply management was brought
00:33:04.360
in there were about 145 000 dairy farmers across the country and there were real issues in terms of
00:33:10.760
price volatility um etc the supply less than 10 000 and now it's probably about 8 000 they are all
00:33:18.840
multi-millionaires even the small small you know 70 head farms in quebec um they're all multi-millionaires
00:33:29.720
the challenge here and and they are so because of the extraordinarily high prices that we charge uh
00:33:35.480
that that we end up paying as consumers in canada it's the the best way for me to describe it for
00:33:41.160
listeners it's the three legs of a stool and this come brings it back to the trade discussions supply
00:33:47.160
management is a cartel it's a legislated cartel so you know we we say any other cartels are illegal
00:33:54.200
because they're bad but this one is sanctioned um historically you know might have been a reason
00:33:59.240
for it does not stand the test of analysis anymore you can't really say that we're doing this to keep
00:34:06.680
the small family dairy farm going when we've gone from over a hundred thousand to on you know
00:34:12.520
i think charlebois says nine you say eight it's under ten now it's it's definitely under ten now um
00:34:18.600
and and that's exactly one of the arguments well it protects the family farm absolute nonsense in fact
00:34:25.960
um uh the rate of consolidation in the last number of decades in dairy and poultry and eggs has been
00:34:33.880
higher than virtually other every other agricultural sector in canada so one could actually say it has
00:34:40.680
hurt right the the maintenance of of the family farm but if i can just the the three legs of the
00:34:47.320
stool because people say to me i don't i don't understand supply management the three legs of the
00:34:52.280
stool are you have price setting by the dairy commissions the federal provincial um and that
00:34:59.480
they're made up of dairy farmers no conflict of interest there um so you have them set prices
00:35:05.480
they set their prices based on if you've ever worked in construction or had to you know get
00:35:09.320
construction work it's like it's cost plus right um so there's no there's no there's not a lot of
00:35:16.760
incentive for for uh figuring out how to be more efficient on the on the costs um so you have price
00:35:23.480
fixing the the prices are fixed by the producers themselves so as i said um clear conflict of interest
00:35:30.520
the other the second leg of the stool is that any industry if you say it's all cost plus and you've got
00:35:37.240
your fixed prices you're gonna get a lot of people wanting to get into that industry it's like
00:35:41.880
handing out mcdonald's franchises for free um that's you're gonna get an awful lot of people wanting to
00:35:47.960
set up mcdonald's well that ultimately doesn't work it's not tenable so there's a quota system so to keep
00:35:54.360
the limit the number of producers limited you establish a quota basically how much milk can that farmer produce
00:36:03.240
right well the third leg of the stool is and the quota ends up being really valuable it's a little
00:36:11.400
bit like a mcdonald's franchise fee right if you want to run a mcdonald's you have to pay an awful
00:36:16.040
lot of money for the privilege up front you have to pay an awful lot of money for the privilege of
00:36:20.840
having quota up front so you know in some parts of the country quota is worth 45 000 a cow and that
00:36:27.400
doesn't include the value of the cow in some places it's fixed at 25 000 worth per cow but you get the
00:36:35.400
drift right there's there's a lot of money involved here the third leg of the stool is that if you will
00:36:42.120
have artificially higher prices in canada because of the first two legs of the stool which you do
00:36:49.560
you can't let cheaper you know world market products come into the country because it will
00:36:58.600
completely undermine the system right if you allowed american yogurt at a third of the price of what we
00:37:06.360
pay for your yogurt here in canada well guess what's going to happen everybody's going to buy american
00:37:12.360
yogurt right well can you speak to uh this claim that i hear on a regular basis and and that is
00:37:19.160
that again even if we just allow a little bit more american product in um supply management
00:37:25.880
protects us from those evil americans with their chemical filled products and their bovine growth
00:37:30.520
hormones yeah this is just drives me crazy this but this is what i get and and what's what's amazing
00:37:37.000
is that it's not true it goes across partisan lines this is not one party or another it goes across
00:37:43.000
and people think that supply management is there to protect us from inferior product talk to any baker
00:37:50.360
about butter in canada versus butter from other countries and you will get a rant about how our product
00:37:56.200
is not superior on that front but it's an awful lot more expensive yes um uh ironically australia
00:38:03.640
and new zealand both had supply management in their dairy sectors many years ago the new zealand's
00:38:09.800
less of a good example australia was very similar to ours and um you know you talked earlier about
00:38:16.120
being right next door to a an economic powerhouse australia is really close to china and it was
00:38:24.360
recognizing that its economy needed to become a lot more competitive in the early 2000s they implemented
00:38:30.920
policies to and to actually ensure australian uh well the whole economy it wasn't just dairy but the
00:38:38.360
whole economy become much more competitive as part of that they actually got rid of supply management
00:38:44.040
the australian dairy industry is now one of the most um lucrative powerful industries in canada
00:38:50.600
in the world new zealand does really well too you'll hear you know canadian farmers saying well the
00:38:56.040
climate's different and honestly it drives me crazy because some of this is all just um uh i i wanted
00:39:06.280
i don't want to say nonsense because that's a little harsh and i don't want to be flippant these are not
00:39:12.120
truths the how can we get rid of it though and so here's the thing um what the opportunity and and
00:39:19.400
so just to complete the picture of the three stools sorry brian but what that means to prevent low
00:39:26.840
cost product from coming in we have tariffs on um milk dairy products poultry eggs for anyone any other
00:39:38.600
producing country in the world including the united states of up to almost 300 percent that is to make
00:39:46.280
sure that we don't get that cheaper product coming in because you add the tariff on and then it becomes
00:39:52.440
comparable in term in price so you know for we basically we basically have built a wall around
00:39:59.160
canada the response from the rest of the world is well you can't sell us your dairy because you know you
00:40:07.240
that's how the w the world trade organization rules work you can't you can't suck and blow you can't
00:40:13.560
keep yours protected and then come in and sell in on ours the other challenge is because we've made
00:40:18.520
ours so expensive there isn't a market in internationally because it just that we can't
00:40:23.880
compete which is such a shame because we have you know we have in nova scotia let me just pick on
00:40:28.680
nova scotia there is a really fantastic cheese um artisanal cheese manufacturing sector in nova
00:40:36.040
scotia for example but that stuff is so expensive it wins global awards some of those cheeses and
00:40:41.880
quebec too ontario other parts of the country but they but they're limited to the canadian market
00:40:47.640
which is a real shame so there's a lancaster cheddar from lancaster in ontario that won
00:40:52.360
world's top cheddar a few years ago yes and the rest of the world doesn't know it because they
00:40:56.760
they can't and you can barely get it in canada well there you go so so let me go back to if i can to
00:41:03.160
the opportunity um a couple of big dairy companies in canada one is a cooperative owned by the irony
00:41:11.880
here just kills me owned by quebec dairy farmers agripoor now produces more american milk than it
00:41:19.400
than than produces canadian milk because they bought into american dairy because they knew that if they
00:41:26.520
wanted to expand into other markets which most successful businesses see as opportunities they
00:41:33.640
had to actually go outside of canada and set up shop in in agripoor's case in the united states what
00:41:42.040
really is frustrating about that is that that the quebec dairy farmers that own it they keep their wealth
00:41:47.320
in terms of the canadian market with inflated prices um but for the agripoor the company to process
00:41:55.240
to go into the united states and process more american milk than canadian milk those are american
00:42:00.600
jobs not canadian jobs so we've in effect exported jobs into other markets saputo is a quebec company
00:42:09.960
quebec dairy company it's one of the largest dairy companies in the world has massive operations in
00:42:15.000
in australia and elsewhere for the same reason so you know good on them that's fantastic but we make good
00:42:22.440
milk here we could be making a lot more milk here for those export markets but we can't because of
00:42:28.760
the rules because of this very inward looking we need to protect our our cozy little arrangement here
00:42:36.440
at all costs the key is we could do this australia got rid of supply management as i said that industry
00:42:44.120
is now one of the world's best we do it if we were going to do it how would it happen because one of
00:42:48.840
the another argument i hear is well the banks have so much money tied up in loans for the quota right
00:42:55.720
that it would be too expensive or if you just you know didn't compensate for the loans for the quota
00:43:02.120
that uh you would effectively take a real hit for the banks no so so here's this is what australia did
00:43:09.800
i mean the first premise is you can't jeopardize the farmers and the producers who based on having quota
00:43:19.400
borrowed borrowed borrowed money to build barns borrowed money you know you we you can't do that
00:43:24.600
that's unfair so how do you compensate the existing quota holders in a way that uh allows them to not
00:43:35.640
you know be be uh jeopardized financially but in a way that also doesn't cost a canadian taxpayer
00:43:43.160
billions of dollars now you hear the number floating around if you just multiply that the quota number by
00:43:48.120
number of cows you know 30 billion dollars it's not that much we've i've i've done a lot of work on
00:43:54.200
this we had an mpp student from the school of public policy do some fantastic work he graduated i guess
00:44:00.840
two years ago now um some fantastic work uh with much uh more updated numbers the number would
00:44:08.600
probably be about eight billion in that range now that's not chump change that's a lot of money
00:44:15.880
especially at a time when canada's making a whole lot of financial commitments on military and various
00:44:20.600
other things but what australia did and this was the genius of the australian approach and remember this
00:44:27.000
was not australia just focusing on dairy this was australia recognizing it needed to be a lot more
00:44:32.200
competitive it had big economies around it growing like china oh does that not sound familiar that maybe
00:44:38.360
this is a moment in time for canada to actually in all of its sectors become more competitive but on
00:44:43.880
dairy what the australians did is they used the system itself to build the fund that actually paid
00:44:51.720
out the quota for the farmers and so over the course of it was either 20 or 25 years they said
00:45:01.080
they determined what the number was that would have to make the farmers whole
00:45:05.960
they then said okay x say 10 10 billion it wasn't 10 billion but for the sake of of argument if they
00:45:12.200
said 10 billion dollars was what they were going to need to make the farmers whole basically paying
00:45:18.200
out their quota and making sure that they could get stick you know get more on their feet to be able
00:45:22.280
to compete internationally um if and you that's hard because on a podcast you can't see my hands but i'm i'm
00:45:29.560
if you say the the uh supply managed price was 10 bucks the uh world market price was five dollars
00:45:40.440
they increased the cost of a liter per milk a liter of milk by 11 cents from the world from the five
00:45:50.120
dollars so five dollars plus 11 cents those numbers are not real but the 11 cents is but
00:45:55.880
i'm trying to do the graphics here um for that 11 cents per liter produced for 20 years was the source of
00:46:05.880
the of the of the of the money to build the fund to buy the farmers out so yes did it cost
00:46:12.200
consume so it wasn't a cross taxpayer base it was consumers but the consumers if they didn't do the
00:46:18.280
consumers were still going to be paying 10 bucks if the consumers were paying five plus that was still
00:46:23.800
better than paying 10 bucks and over 20 years that actually managed to ensure that the uh farmers in
00:46:31.560
australia were made whole economically did everyone stay in the industry did everyone
00:46:37.000
manage to to sort of rally to this and compete no some of the dairy farmers in australia sold out to
00:46:42.520
others there was some consolidation that's not a bad thing like i said the australian industry is now
00:46:48.680
a powerhouse globally which has benefited the australian dairy sector like it's been it's an opportunity for
00:46:56.680
canada so for me it's not we need to get rid of supply management because supply management is bad
00:47:02.440
and you know it's it's made a small very small number of people ultra wealthy at the cost of
00:47:07.320
consumers which is true but it's also a shame because we are depriving our own dairy farmers
00:47:15.640
and the dairy sector and the producers from using more canadian production building canadian jobs to be
00:47:22.520
able to participate in the global marketplace but i but i will say fundamentally the lobby the dairy
00:47:29.640
lobby so if you're if you're spending 100 200 million dollars a year and you know just by if you
00:47:35.880
add how much a billboard costs and a tv ad costs and how much the milk insignia on the toronto make
00:47:41.400
on the leaves jersey yeah it's too bad probably you know would have been more more costly if it had
00:47:46.280
been the others but anyway um those are all that's really expensive i mean when i was first first
00:47:51.480
doing my work on this the the the understanding it was well over a hundred million dollars a year
00:47:56.840
of marketing well that's you and i are paying for that right because of our inflated dairy
00:48:02.440
poultry and egg prices but the people who benefit from that the lobbyists the marketing people the ad
00:48:10.600
campaign people they all have a vested interest in having the dairy farmers themselves believe that supply
00:48:20.280
management is is sacred and they also have a vested interest in making sure because the you know the
00:48:28.440
dairy farmers will spout these lines even if they're not true but they've been told them
00:48:33.240
there are some dairy farmers by the way who behind the scenes are actively working to get
00:48:37.320
rid of supply management for these very reasons because they understand what what they're missing but
00:48:41.880
they have to be extremely quiet about this because uh it's a it's a it's it's a tough um there are
00:48:48.520
people who are very very strongly intent on keeping this system because they benefit so much from it
00:48:55.640
um but then they also that's the by far the most active lobby on parliament hill um so even though
00:49:03.080
behind the scenes many of those politicians who voted for that bill agree that supply management needs to go
00:49:10.920
they vote for it because they say they don't have the votes and the vet the industry the lobby
00:49:20.200
has a vested interest in making sure that those politicians continue to believe that there are simply too
00:49:28.200
much too many votes in support of supply management so we need the canadian public to understand the
00:49:34.040
realities of this much much more if i can right now every other sector in this country automotive
00:49:45.080
whether you know the big three auto parts canola uh um beef beef aluminum steel all of the aluminum and
00:49:56.120
steel industry in canada is now under tariffs and they are suffering part of the reason is that we have
00:50:07.080
this extraordinary need somehow to protect supply management but the cost what do we give up what
00:50:15.160
does every other sector give up if we were able to say that the americans yeah i think you're absolutely
00:50:23.160
right they're not saying get rid of supply management they just want greater some greater
00:50:27.480
access to the to the country's market um but we need to get rid of supply management for canada's sake
00:50:34.760
not for donald trump but right now because we are holding on to it so dearly every other
00:50:42.440
the negotiation on every other economic sector is harmed well i'm sure you've heard from the same people
00:50:49.160
i have who have been part of the past negotiations in the last trump administration and are being
00:50:55.480
consulted now from various industries they they will tell you straight up maybe not on the record
00:51:01.560
but they will tell you straight up that the dairy lobby could scupper the entire deal uh and and hurt
00:51:09.560
every other industry well this recent bill um is is hugely problematic even as i said before even if it
00:51:16.840
weren't dairy um excluding any economic sector from trade negotiations is a problem but are keeping
00:51:24.120
supply management as a as a system absolutely i mean you i'm look i'm i'm in western canada the beef
00:51:30.760
farmers the canola people the everybody the the corn people in ontario corn farmers who have expanded
00:51:37.960
into the united states simply because they can't afford the the acreage in ontario because of the
00:51:44.920
the inflated costs of that acreage because of the the um artificial wealth of the of the dairy
00:51:50.280
industry i mean i'll say something that's not popular though isn't canada overall a protectionist
00:51:55.400
country while we scream about the americans and tariffs and and different things beyond supply
00:52:01.720
management we protect our banks we protect our telcos our media companies and it's a long list of
00:52:08.920
um thou shalt not trade in this well foreign ownership restrictions are a bit different i mean
00:52:16.120
there's there's nothing to prevent verizon from coming in and and setting up shop in canada we
00:52:20.600
don't we don't prevent there are lots of banks that come into canada and operate what we do restrict
00:52:26.280
is ownership in those in those companies and that's a much different conversation um it nothing compares to
00:52:35.080
this extraordinary artificial the sanction cartel that continues with supply management my hope brian
00:52:42.920
is that that what's happening with donald trump and the americans and and let's face it there are a lot
00:52:48.840
of people behind trump who also i mean supply management was a frustration for obama was a frustration
00:52:55.000
for biden it was a frustration for you know it's been a frustration for for decades um the the challenge
00:53:01.880
here is we need the other economic sectors in this country to be very firm with our politicians to
00:53:08.760
say enough is enough we know that there's actually real benefits to getting rid of supply management
00:53:15.720
for canada for canadian consumers and ironically for the canadian dairy poultry and egg sectors in
00:53:22.200
terms of potential global opportunities but we're ignoring those and hurting all of our sectors in
00:53:30.600
all of these trade negotiations so you know where are they we need them to step up we need the canola
00:53:37.160
farmers we need the bee farmers we need aluminum steel we need the auto auto parts sector people to
00:53:44.200
be making these these noises with our canadian politicians because if they don't speak up the
00:53:50.520
canadian politicians will continue to be under this frustrating belief that somehow those dairy votes are more
00:53:58.280
important than every other economic sector in this country martha all finley thanks so much oh my
00:54:04.440
pleasure full comment is a post media podcast my name is brian lilly your host this episode was produced
00:54:10.920
by andre prue theme music by bryce hall kevin libban is the executive producer remember to hit subscribe
00:54:17.000
like leave a comment or review wherever you're getting your podcast whether it's on amazon apple spotify
00:54:22.040
what have you help us out leave us that review and spread the word thanks for listening until next time i'm brian lilly
00:54:32.680
here's that clip from canada did what i promised you
00:54:39.480
so um although although abortion was sort of accessible it really wasn't but then 1988 rolls around
00:54:49.400
and what's the law on abortion then suddenly there wasn't one literally no restrictions existed in
00:54:56.840
1988 abortion went from heavily restricted to completely unrestricted almost overnight there was no
00:55:04.760
referendum on this there wasn't even an act of parliament this whole thing is due to a somewhat
00:55:10.200
surprised decision out of the supreme court of canada and it came about in large part because of one
00:55:15.800
man a canadian doctor who had been relentless about running illegal abortion clinics since the 1960s
00:55:21.960
and was determined to overturn the laws prohibiting the practice along the way he endured multiple
00:55:27.880
arrests constant raids a jail term a firebombing of his clinic an attack by a fanatic wielding garden
00:55:33.240
shears the approbation of virtually his entire profession and frequent death threats
00:55:38.680
if you want to hear the rest of the story make sure you subscribe to canada did what everywhere you get