Full Comment - Blaine Higgs on why he won’t relent on New Brunswick’s school-gender controversy

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00:01:14.460 New Brunswick doesn't make national news all that often, and the same can be said of their

00:01:25.900 provincial politics. It's much the same. But right now, New Brunswick and its provincial

00:01:30.780 political scene is very much making national headlines. Hi, I'm Brian Lilly. This is the Full

00:01:36.400 Comment Podcast. And before we bring on our next guest, who is in the middle of the political

00:01:42.100 firestorm that is happening in New Brunswick, I want to remind you that you can subscribe to the

00:01:47.200 Full Comment Podcast on any app or device that you're listening on, whether it's Apple Podcasts,

00:01:53.120 Google, Spotify, Amazon, wherever you're listening. Please give us a subscribe, give us a like,

00:01:58.600 leave a review, help spread the word. As I said, New Brunswick is not known for creating national

00:02:04.340 headlines. It's a lovely place to visit. It's a beautiful spot, but it tends to be a bit quieter

00:02:10.000 than what we deal with here in the big smoke, where it seems that Toronto politics and Toronto

00:02:16.700 or Ontario-based issues dominate the national discussion. So what is it that has put New

00:02:22.360 Brunswick front and center? It's a change in school policy for the province that says before teachers

00:02:29.120 and school officials are able to change the name or the pronouns of children in their schools,

00:02:35.300 they need to notify the parents. Sounds pretty common sense to most people. In fact,

00:02:41.760 polls show the vast majority of Canadians straight across the country agree with that policy,

00:02:45.720 but it's creating controversy in the government of Blaine Higgs. The premier has lost at least one

00:02:52.800 member. Things are moving fast, so those numbers may change, and he's facing a revolt as well.

00:02:58.900 What's driving all this? What brought about his decision? And is this a hill he's willing to die on?

00:03:04.120 Blaine Higgs joins me now from Fredericton. Thanks for the time, Premier.

00:03:08.040 You're very welcome, Brian.

00:03:10.360 Take us back to the genesis of this school policy. Were you reversing something that was

00:03:18.660 in place already or establishing standards because of direction school boards or school districts

00:03:26.520 were going in? What started this?

00:03:28.520 Well, the policy came in very quietly back in 2020, and it became more evident in the last

00:03:37.580 little while of what was actually happening in schools. And it really came to light during a

00:03:44.380 professional development day when some of the agenda items were identified that were going to

00:03:48.780 be discussed and brought about in that agenda for that day. So then it started to be the question

00:03:55.700 about, okay, so what are the details around how this is handled within the system? And are parents

00:04:02.660 aware, you know, when something as significant as gender identity is being discussed? For elementary

00:04:09.560 kids that, you know, are obviously at very early stages of their life and development and, you know,

00:04:15.660 have a lot of questions, how do the parents get involved? And what we learned is that actually the

00:04:21.400 policy purposely did not have include the parents. So they were excluded from the process. So it kind

00:04:27.480 of, it kind of was on the fundamental that all parents are incapable of managing sensitive issues

00:04:33.340 with their children. And, and I don't think we should dismiss parents at such a key time in a child's

00:04:39.840 life. So, so that's what started. And then the more that parents became aware of what was happening,

00:04:46.100 then the more traction it got in terms of what, what are we doing about this? And why aren't we

00:04:50.100 addressing this? And why am I excluded from my child's upbringing? So, so what we wanted to do

00:04:55.920 was improve the process so that we don't put children at risk. And, and I, and I, because

00:05:01.500 obviously that is very, very concerning as well, but we also don't exclude parents as just a matter of

00:05:07.840 course. This is an issue that across North America has become a lightning rod. And in some places in the

00:05:14.440 United States, they've gone to the point of, uh, when it comes to gender identity or transgendered

00:05:20.300 issues, just saying, you can't talk about it in schools or banning, uh, certain types of materials.

00:05:26.260 You're not going that direction. You're not saying, you know, we're not going to discuss gender

00:05:31.140 identity in schools, or you're banned from discussing certain things. Are you?

00:05:35.700 Well, we're not Brian in that sense, but it did come to light in terms of, you know, some of the

00:05:41.500 issues around, um, you know, drag story time and what, what kids, um, you know, we're learning at

00:05:46.960 very early ages. I mean, even toddlers in some cases, uh, in, in, um, in libraries or in the,

00:05:52.940 in the case of kindergarten and schools, but we're not prescribing that we're, we're basically saying

00:05:57.840 if there are challenges and concerns, then, then the last person to find out shouldn't be the parents.

00:06:04.140 And, and then how do we protect the child? So obviously we're, we're saying, what resources

00:06:09.700 do we need to provide? So children are protected and that we have a system in place that ultimately,

00:06:16.940 um, the child and the parent can have a discussion, uh, about how they feel. And, and we know that there

00:06:23.780 are some parental situations that would be very, very significant and there'd be adversarial. And that

00:06:30.460 may apply to a lot of situations the child is facing, nothing to do with gender identity.

00:06:34.420 And we don't want to make that worse or expose the kids at all. So, so, but having to talk about this

00:06:40.680 and finding a path forward where, where, you know, families continue to play a critical role

00:06:47.020 in the foundation that our society cherish, cherishes and not have children become more or less the

00:06:54.220 responsibility of the state with exclusion of parents. I don't think that's a direction our

00:06:58.980 society, um, certainly wants to be in. And I guess I find it really quite, uh, surprising in some ways

00:07:07.260 that, that questioning the role of a parent and child's upbringing is really a debate.

00:07:13.700 Well, you've been called far right by the prime minister. That's something that, uh, people who've met

00:07:20.120 you, covered you, um, as I have would be quite shocked by, I mean, you, you, you've always seemed 1.00

00:07:27.100 to me to very moderate middle of the road person, um, in, in my dealings with you, the Globe and Mail

00:07:34.540 though, um, they didn't go as far as the prime minister, but their editorial, uh, about a week ago

00:07:40.920 said the headline was the state has a duty to protect trans students. And then further down in relation to

00:07:48.500 what you were just saying, um, they said the premier and his supporters are getting things backward.

00:07:54.900 It's the fundamental responsibility of parents to know what is going on with their kids. If they do not,

00:08:01.180 that is their failing, not a teacher's. How do you respond to the Globe and Mail saying that you've got

00:08:06.980 it backwards and that it's a failing of the parents, if not?

00:08:11.680 Well, um, I guess, Brian, if you have a policy that purposely excludes the parents, even to the point that

00:08:20.600 everyone in the school would know this child or their, their child by a, by a different name or a different

00:08:26.000 gender. And even to the point that if it was a parent, a parent teacher's day, that, that there would be

00:08:32.020 material removed from the classroom that would in any way give, um, um, any sort of indication that there was a

00:08:39.540 gender identity, uh, difference. If that is the policy, then, then how do you blame that on the

00:08:45.740 parent? If they are purposely excluded from, from the process? So, so what we're seeing and certainly

00:08:52.380 the, the huge outpouring from parents is I want to know what's happening in our, in my school with my

00:09:00.000 child. And when we, but what do you say to the Globe and Mail when they, they argue that, well,

00:09:07.960 you should know what's going on and, and, and you're failing as a parent if you don't know.

00:09:13.620 So why should the school tell you? Well, I, I guess, Brian, I would say that that is all reverse

00:09:20.120 to what in reality should happen because, because the, how does a parent find out if indeed the

00:09:27.760 school purposely holds information from them? We don't, we don't do that with, with so many things

00:09:33.980 that require consent. And we're talking children under 16 years of age here. Um, everything that

00:09:39.620 happens in the school requires consent, but you can change your identity and your pronoun, and that

00:09:45.620 doesn't require any sort of connection at all. In fact, just the opposite. I would say that in this

00:09:51.720 situation, the, the, the, who's got it wrong would be the, the comments from the Globe and Mail that

00:09:57.100 parents, uh, it's okay. What they seem to be saying is it's okay for parents not to, not to be told the

00:10:04.280 real truth about their children. But what is, what is also part of that, that I want to qualify, it's

00:10:10.720 necessary to have a process in the system. So children are protected and we have the right people that

00:10:17.220 are engaged with the child. So it becomes counselors, psychologists, psychiatrists, however it needs to

00:10:22.800 happen. And we don't put that burden on teachers, but we have the right qualifications so that we're sure

00:10:28.560 that the meetings are held, the child is protected, and at the right time, the parents are engaged. So

00:10:33.740 they're part of this child's learning and upbringing.

00:10:37.960 What you're describing to me sounds like you're trying to find a balance between protecting children

00:10:42.460 and not excluding parents. Would, would you say that's...

00:10:46.220 Brian, that sums it up precisely.

00:10:47.980 So, you know, you're not going the direction of some American governors, as I said. As far as this

00:10:56.300 policy that you're reversing, uh, with 713, how young did it go? There's been a lot of talk of

00:11:02.880 teenagers and that, well, you know, by the time you're 14, 15, you already have the ability to do

00:11:10.460 so many things that, uh, don't require parental consent, even within the school setting. How young did

00:11:17.000 this policy go? The one that you're now seeking to reverse?

00:11:21.320 Well, and, and, and I would say seeking to clarify and, and, and makes improvements, uh, on, it went as,

00:11:27.820 as young as four years old.

00:11:29.440 As young as four, with no parental involvement.

00:11:33.300 Correct.

00:11:35.400 You're facing a, a firestorm over this though, aren't you? You've, you've lost one cabinet minister?

00:11:42.280 Yes, um, I am. And you know, so, so, um, Brian, I'm, I'm a grandfather and I'm a father and, and I,

00:11:52.180 when I think of, um, issues as significant as this and, and life altering issues, you know,

00:11:58.880 that could lead to, you know, major irreversible changes in, in, in an individual that, that could,

00:12:04.360 in fact, you know, um, look down the road or in 10 years or 15 years and look back and say,

00:12:10.340 well, why did I make irreversible changes to, to, to my, to my body? Uh, I, I just want to be in the

00:12:17.400 process where they have the support they need. And also I think we should, we should learn more

00:12:22.220 from what is happening around us, particularly in Europe. And, and I think there's a lot of

00:12:26.840 information there of what, what kids that have gone through this and where they are now and what,

00:12:31.720 what they're looking back on is what they learned or were exposed to and, and what help they had or

00:12:36.040 didn't have during the process of, of understanding. So, but to say, and, and I know I've been called

00:12:42.520 just about everything, um, but to say we can't talk about it and to say we can't have an adult

00:12:48.780 conversation of the role of parents in a child's life, um, you know, it's, it's a very hard concept

00:12:56.660 for me to understand that we, we, we think it's okay to remove parents from key, key elements of,

00:13:03.860 of a child's upbringing. I find that really disturbing in our society that, that we consider

00:13:09.820 that. Okay. You, you deal with prime minister, Justin Trudeau on a regular basis on a number of

00:13:16.160 files. You're of different political stripes, but you've come to agreements on, on healthcare,

00:13:21.080 on childcare, on, on various issues. How did it feel hearing him go to an event and say, quote,

00:13:29.540 quote, far right political actors are trying to outdo themselves with the types of cruelty

00:13:34.820 and isolation they can inflict on these already vulnerable people. Right now, trans kids in New 0.52

00:13:41.880 Brunswick are being told they don't have the right to be themselves, that they need to ask permission,

00:13:46.780 while trans kids need to feel safe, not targeted by politicians. End quote. He, he called you far right.

00:13:53.820 He said you were targeting children. How do you have a, have you had a conversation with the

00:14:00.340 prime minister since then? How do you, how do you deal with them when he's using language like that

00:14:05.680 to describe you? Well, obviously, Ryan, it's, it's extremely disappointing that these, not only is

00:14:12.860 this a provincial jurisdiction, but for, for the prime minister to make a statement like that,

00:14:17.160 um, at a time, maybe he, he's trying to deflect from some of the other issues that we have in our

00:14:22.760 country and the challenges we're facing as a country, but to, to use this as a, um, kind of a,

00:14:29.020 uh, a political kind of, um, volley and, and, and, and, in the same vein, dismissing the role of parents.

00:14:38.540 And in this case, in New Brunswick and the concerns they have, see, you, you can't do one without

00:14:43.120 the other. You, you, you, we need to protect. So we need to do both. That's where the balance comes

00:14:48.640 in. You, you need to protect the child, but you also need to ensure that parents have a responsibility

00:14:54.360 and parents don't take the responsibility lightly. And I think that's commendable because we need them

00:15:00.220 to be engaged. So I'm extremely disappointed that the prime minister believes that that's not

00:15:05.140 necessary. When I've been in discussions with people about this, they always come up with the,

00:15:12.460 well, we shouldn't tell parents because kids aren't safe at home. And my issue with that is

00:15:18.280 that it assumes that every parent is an abusive parent, that parents will not respond with love.

00:15:29.000 I've talked to various people who have had to, uh, at different stages of their life, come out to

00:15:34.760 their parents. And no matter how loving the parents are, it's a stressful situation for, uh, the people

00:15:41.600 I've talked to, uh, but most, the vast majority of them have experienced love and acceptance and the

00:15:49.460 supporters of this policy run with the accusation that the child's life will be in danger, that the

00:15:56.620 parent may murder them. I don't think that that is realistic view of parents. I think it's an insulting

00:16:04.880 view of parents. Um, I'd like your reaction to that. Well, I feel the same way. And then certainly

00:16:13.340 when, when I looked, um, we got deeper into this policy, it actually did take that premise that,

00:16:19.600 that all parents are, are incapable of, of working through tough issues with their kids.

00:16:24.700 And, and, and so I, I take the opposite view and say, no, no, I believe all parents love their

00:16:30.780 children and all parents want the best for their children. And, and whether, whatever the difficult

00:16:36.060 situation may be, parents want to be in the middle to help and protect. And so the, yes, there will be

00:16:44.460 cases and, and I won't deny that there will be cases where the life at home, uh, may not be conducive

00:16:51.200 to, to, to bringing in something as significant as gender identity and how will parents manage that.

00:16:56.780 That's why we say very clearly, if that situation exists at home, first of all, we should know that

00:17:02.980 through our network of this child coming to school on a regular basis and the challenges they're facing

00:17:08.000 at home. So that wouldn't be a complete unknown, but to ensure that that would be recognized,

00:17:14.300 the conditions at home, we would have these counselors in the middle of this so that we would be sure the

00:17:20.540 individual, the child would be protected and would not be put in a position that would, would endanger

00:17:25.960 them in any way, shape, or form. So, so we can, we can strike this balance, but there has to be a

00:17:32.340 recognition that parents are needed to, to be part of a child's life in order for them to develop and

00:17:39.260 grow and, and, and then move into the future with responsibilities that they've learned, uh, from home

00:17:44.860 and adults and, and be part of that societal, uh, support system. So there's a, there's an opportunity

00:17:51.580 here to, to have those discussions to make this work for everyone.

00:17:56.500 Most politicians wouldn't fight on this, um, even though polling shows that the majority of people

00:18:03.120 agree with what you're doing. I want to read a question from a Leger poll that was done in May.

00:18:08.600 The poll asked, should schools have to let parents know about their child's desire to change gender

00:18:15.100 or have new gender pronouns? 57% across the country said yes. Um, the lowest support was in BC where it

00:18:23.720 was 49% said yes, but in every demographic group, uh, age and gender, people said yes. Among households

00:18:32.760 with kids living in them, it was 62%. And in Atlantic Canada, I don't have New Brunswick specific

00:18:39.780 numbers, but in Atlantic Canada, that support was 69%. So if that's the, uh, if that's where the public

00:18:49.120 is at, why aren't more politicians willing to stand up and say what is a very balanced approach that you

00:18:55.740 brought forward? Parents should know we need to protect children. Why don't more politicians stand up 0.65

00:19:01.420 and do that? And why are you facing such a backlash in your own party over this?

00:19:07.500 Well, Brian, it is, it is a sensitive issue and, and many would prefer to, you know, not have the

00:19:14.460 tough discussions. I guess when I, when I ran, I mean, I had an extensive career outside of politics.

00:19:20.580 Um, so when I first ran for office, it's been 13 years ago now, um, I, I ran with the, with the,

00:19:27.420 with the concept, uh, that we could deliver better services for the people in the province, but we

00:19:32.780 could, we could get better results by making real decisions. And, and to me, there isn't anything more

00:19:38.580 important than the foundational, um, the foundational capability of our, of our families and the support

00:19:47.020 structure needed for kids to, to develop. And, and so when I think of big issues that have a lasting

00:19:53.680 impact on our society and, and on our, on our province or on our nation, this is one of them. And I didn't

00:20:00.600 kind of come here to, for, for a good time, I guess, maybe, uh, might be a phrase. I came here to make

00:20:07.020 long-term views of how we can improve our society and our province at the same time. So I'm not afraid

00:20:14.280 to wade into these issues, but I know that it is extremely sensitive and many, and I understand it.

00:20:19.540 I, I really do. And it's tough. It's tough when your colleagues, you know, say, I can't, I can't be

00:20:25.080 involved. But the majority of our caucus did support this and they did support the need for parents to

00:20:31.060 have a role. So that's what we're moving on is that we need to, to face this and have the good

00:20:37.500 discussion and find a path forward because it's important to the future generation of our families

00:20:42.600 and our kids. Um, just looking at, at the headlines and meant many of them, uh, taking you on, on this

00:20:50.000 come from CBC one saying Blaine Higgs, a visitor to the PC party may soon be shown the door. Uh, that

00:20:56.720 was a piece, uh, posted on June 22nd day before PC rebels say majority of riding presidents support

00:21:03.320 ousting Higgs. You had the majority of MPs vote with you. Is there something else driving this

00:21:09.520 attempted coup and in your party's leadership? Yes. Um, this, this issue certainly, uh, has provided

00:21:18.900 a catalyst for some, but I would dare say that every, um, mostly everyone, I guess you can never

00:21:25.720 say everyone, um, would certainly believe there's a role for parents here in this, in this process.

00:21:30.700 Uh, but there has been a bit of an agenda from, from, um, uh, kind of different pockets in the

00:21:37.240 province that, that would, would like to see, uh, maybe my, uh, my position or leader of the party

00:21:44.340 end. And, and, and I guess it, it, it comes down to my, my focus from the very beginning.

00:21:50.180 I ran on a policy of province first, politics second. And, and I know I'm not a long standing,

00:21:56.820 you know, PC member as such. Um, but, but I, I believe what's best for the province is also

00:22:03.160 best for the party. And, and it means doing what's necessary in order to see our province

00:22:08.480 thrive to every part of our province thrive and, and have people all grow with that and

00:22:13.620 be part of a large, a larger initiative. And that's been my goal from the beginning. So

00:22:18.740 I've kind of gone into this job, very focused on service delivery, on improved performance,

00:22:25.140 better decision-making, getting into the tough issues, because for years they would just kind

00:22:30.980 of kick down the road. And, and I guess, so I am a different politician in that regard,

00:22:36.180 but I just, I need people to look at the big picture and say, okay, if you don't like my

00:22:42.580 management style, I mean, I, I did come from a business management style and I, I, I know that.

00:22:48.420 And so if, if that's, and I, and I apologize to my colleagues, if, if that is, you know,

00:22:54.240 been an issue that, that makes it difficult, but look at the bigger picture and what's actually

00:22:59.560 happening in our province and just pull back a little minute and say, wow, isn't it great to

00:23:06.280 be part of a government that is facing the big challenges and making the decisions that are,

00:23:12.300 that are best for our province as a whole in every corner.

00:23:15.080 I, I ask for that sort of reflection and not for, to make it personal in any way. And that's the way

00:23:23.320 I look at it. Yes, I have some significant detractors at this point, but, but I, I don't

00:23:29.360 want to make it personal. I want to make it, let's stay focused on, on the big picture.

00:23:34.300 You're right. You come from a different political background, including you used to be a liberal.

00:23:39.820 We'll get into that in a little bit, but I also, after we take a quick break here,

00:23:43.540 I do want to talk to you, Premier Higgs, about fighting the federal government and fighting

00:23:49.240 for jobs at places like Irving, which is threatening to pull up stakes, which just seems

00:23:55.340 unfathomable. And it would be a huge economic blow for, for your province. So we'll talk about that

00:24:01.700 when we come back.

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00:25:31.500 Premier Higgs, you do describe yourself as a different type of politician. Give me a

00:25:35.480 quick elevator pitch. How did you come to be leader of the PC party? You started out early on as a

00:25:42.420 liberal, and then eventually you went to a party that we don't have outside of New Brunswick,

00:25:48.420 the Confederation of Region Parties. Then you were in a, you know, a finance minister in a previous

00:25:54.880 PC government. Give us a short description of your, your political journey there.

00:26:01.300 Okay, well, I guess in correction, you know, and yes, I would have voted in different directions over

00:26:05.720 the years. My, my dad was, was, and mom were, were certainly strong liberals. And I, I joked around

00:26:12.580 when I got elected as a, as a conservative, that I wondered if they actually voted for me. Now my mom,

00:26:18.360 my mom said that yes, he did. I said, do you think dad did? And, and, and she said, well, I, I had to

00:26:23.540 help him in the, in the booth there. So I'm, I'm, I know he did. So anyway, it was kind of a longstanding

00:26:31.920 joke, but, but I, I never ran or was a liberal per se, but regardless of all that, yes, I was involved

00:26:39.300 years ago and in a, in a kind of an upstart party looking for changes in, in our, in our province

00:26:45.360 that would be reflective of, of moving forward and not be caught in the typical political kind of

00:26:50.460 back and forth. But then that was back. I was in my mid thirties then. And so I went back to work

00:26:56.880 for 20 years and, and then retired from Irving Oil after a 33 year career, um, at the age of 56.

00:27:05.220 So, and my goal at that time was I, I, I wanted to, I wanted to make use of what I'd learned to make

00:27:13.320 better decisions using facts and analysis and, and criteria, building better service models for,

00:27:19.100 for a delivery. Cause, cause in, in the situation working with Irving, our, our, our focus was always

00:27:25.260 better results for customers because it customers were paying our, our, our, our bills and our

00:27:30.300 salaries. So I, I kind of took that model here and say, you know, the, the, the electorate are really

00:27:35.140 our customers and, and we should be delivering better service. So why can't we all have a higher

00:27:40.260 level of commitment to service delivery for the tax dollars that, that our citizens pay? So, so that

00:27:46.060 has been the focus from the beginning. When I ran, we, I ran initially and I was finance minister for,

00:27:52.100 for, for, um, four years. That was 2010 to 14. I, I, um, you know, we, we did find a lot of

00:27:59.840 opportunities to help improve and we were making improvements on, you know, some huge capital

00:28:05.080 spending that was, was committed during the election, trying to get ourselves out of this

00:28:09.800 hole. And then we lost election in 14. And, and I'm, Brian, I would mention something that is so

00:28:15.620 evident in the system. We continually put ourselves back every time we have a new government. So in

00:28:24.340 our case, New Brunswick, every four years, there were all kinds of commitments and promises being

00:28:28.480 made in order to get elected. And then you got to try to dig your hole out, uh, dig out of the hole

00:28:33.160 rather in order to, to, uh, actually get back on track financially. So when I ran for leadership in

00:28:40.320 2016, so I won my riding, but we were out of government. Uh, so I was in opposition. Uh, I had

00:28:48.100 a lot of new people join the party, people that wanted to see a change in politics. And I mentioned

00:28:53.880 earlier about province first, uh, politics second. These were people that had, had never been involved

00:28:59.880 in politics before, but wanted a new version of, of how do we manage our province? So I won the

00:29:06.100 leadership in 2016. And then we had our first provincial election in 2018. So we had our first

00:29:13.120 minority government in, in, um, a hundred years, but I, I only promised, uh, I think like 80 million

00:29:21.240 or maybe a hundred million on a, on a, uh, I forget the exact number, but a fraction of what my opponent

00:29:26.880 was, was promising. Um, because I knew that if I, if I promised all of this spending, I could never get

00:29:34.620 a physical, uh, their physical house in order. We were able to balance the budget the very first

00:29:40.380 year in office. And this wasn't at a time when the economy was growing. Our, our economy was flat

00:29:45.000 or stagnant at a one and a half percent in that range, but we balanced the very first year in

00:29:49.600 office. And, and then we balanced ever since the next five years. And, and we, we managed our

00:29:54.760 resources and we've reduced taxes. We've, we've re in both property taxes, income taxes, and we've

00:30:00.180 raised the level of spending in healthcare education to unprecedented levels, even in capital

00:30:05.200 spending, but we continue to balance the budget and pay down the debt. So it is possible to manage

00:30:12.160 the, the taxpayer dollars and get better results. And, and, and so I focused on that, but did I focus

00:30:19.040 as much as I should have, uh, maybe in, in staying closer to the, the writings and the presidents.

00:30:24.420 We, we worked with them in, in case of what they needed in their writings in terms of the,

00:30:29.100 the, the, the issues around the roads or schools or any of this stuff or healthcare. Um, but, but I,

00:30:36.160 I probably didn't spend as much time in discussing, you know, directly with the individual party

00:30:42.620 presidents and, and, and, uh, and the, the organization as such, even though the organization

00:30:46.820 is doing better than historically ever has. So there lies the challenge. And I, you know, I,

00:30:54.380 so I have focused on the, on the, the, the business of running the province and everyone

00:30:59.540 will kind of can't argue that point. And, and maybe I've done that to my own detriment,

00:31:04.100 but at the end of the day, regardless of what happens, this is an issue that I will stand or fall

00:31:10.120 on. And I will hold my head proud because we are, we, if I, if I don't survive this, we're,

00:31:17.560 our province is so much stronger today than it has been practically in its history, but, um,

00:31:24.100 certainly in the, in the last multiple years.

00:31:27.540 You said, um, that your view is, uh, province first party second, and whether it's province,

00:31:34.400 country, what have you, I think that's always what the outlook should be. I don't think all

00:31:38.860 politicians do that though. And I look at what's happening in New Brunswick where Irvine oil is a

00:31:46.080 major, uh, employer, a major economic engine. And no matter how much you believe that we need to

00:31:54.520 reduce dependence on fossil fuels, we're going to need it for quite some time.

00:32:00.720 But our current prime minister has, is bringing in a suite of policies that are at the point where

00:32:07.900 Irvine oil is saying, we're looking to sell or close up shop or do something, but it's just not

00:32:14.160 feasible here. What was your reaction when you, you heard that? And, and the prime minister's,

00:32:20.740 uh, government say, uh, to Irving and to everybody else, yeah, we're bringing in a new tax, but you

00:32:27.600 can't pass it on to your customers. You've got to eat that. I mean, that's part of why Irving is saying,

00:32:31.680 you know what, we got to get out of here. So do you feel like the prime minister with some of his

00:32:37.900 policies is putting his, his ideology ahead of what's good for the provinces or what's good for

00:32:44.400 the country? Absolutely. There, there, there is not a recognition of the reality of, of what we'll

00:32:50.980 be using for energy sources going forward. And, and it's like we're putting Canton in a bubble here

00:32:56.220 and, and saying that, um, well, we're just not going to produce this sort of, um, you know,

00:33:01.980 the fossil fuel generation that we've had over the year. We're just changing all that instantly. Um,

00:33:06.860 and, and, and the fact is that if this refinery doesn't run, then we'll buy refined fuel from India

00:33:12.740 or, or the Middle East, or we'll buy it from, you know, other, other countries that don't have

00:33:18.160 anywhere close to the standards of operational excellence and, and reduced emissions that,

00:33:25.000 that our own operations have here, not only in New Brunswick, but in the industries across the

00:33:28.700 country. So we've seen the exodus of, of capital investment leave, leave Alberta and Saskatchewan.

00:33:34.700 And we're seeing it here right in this announcement, which, which I am disappointed.

00:33:39.020 Am I shocked given the policies? No, not shocked, but disappointed because the refinery has,

00:33:45.700 has been certainly on an average year would put three or 400 million into the, into the, uh,

00:33:51.380 operation. And, and, but during the policies that have been put forward, the policies that are really

00:33:57.240 kind of killing energy investment in, in, uh, in New Brunswick and in Canada, they, they basically

00:34:03.260 didn't recognize the standards of performance that the refinery had already spent money on.

00:34:08.760 And if I give a little example, that going back to when ethanol became part of the,

00:34:12.920 the gasoline fuel standard, and it was considered a, you know, a big environmental move at 10%,

00:34:18.320 Irving Oil was one of the first in the country to adopt that. If not the first, I think it was the

00:34:23.120 first. And, and then, so then you have added on the carbon credits that are designed to have

00:34:28.740 refiners or, you know, heavy industries to invest in new technology to reduce the emission standards.

00:34:36.060 So not only do they not get credit from past, past, uh, sort of environmental standards on which

00:34:42.320 they would have been leading the country, but no, it doesn't matter. You're going to have to be 20% 0.99

00:34:46.760 better than you were, whatever the number of better than you are right now, but they were already,

00:34:50.740 let's say 25 or 30% better than any other operation, but no recognition for that. And

00:34:55.800 then to add insult to injury, the carbon tax, um, or the carbon credit system to buy carbon credits,

00:35:02.040 and you could, you could put carbon credits against your production and then, but the money had to be

00:35:08.900 used for make, let's say, hydrogen production or some other environmental improvement. But the

00:35:13.300 refinery that's built on an export capability, uh, because it, it supplies the New England market,

00:35:19.120 um, Boston and North or New York and North, I should say, um, the carbon, the carbon credits did not

00:35:26.440 apply to export barrels. That's 80% of the barrels coming out of this refinery do not qualify for the

00:35:33.020 carbon credit. So that immediately puts them in a huge disadvantage. And you'd say, well, why would

00:35:39.740 that be the case? Because basically you're in a situation that these barrels are just going across

00:35:45.220 the border here in Maine, um, in, in, um, but yet they don't qualify. So are we in this bubble here

00:35:52.580 in, in New Brunswick or in Canada? So, so the reality of the energy requirements that we need

00:35:58.880 are just not being recognized. It's, it's kind of an artificial view of what's reality. We're all

00:36:06.260 moving to a cleaner fuel, cleaner environment. I, I've visited, uh, you know, different companies when I

00:36:12.300 was in Europe looked at their energy plan. We're building an energy plan and we're looking very

00:36:17.380 seriously at how we, you know, can reduce our consumption. We could shut down four coal plants

00:36:22.560 in the Atlantic region and do it within two years. And we could do that because we have a huge natural

00:36:29.380 gas resource here, but the federal government is putting taxes upon taxes on that, that alone

00:36:37.240 by converting coal to natural gas would reduce our emissions in the Atlantic Canada by 50%.

00:36:44.020 I was talking with Premier Scott Moe and he was telling me that they have a wind and solar plan

00:36:50.360 for Saskatchewan, but as everyone knows with wind and solar, it doesn't work all the time. And so you

00:36:57.040 need to have a baseload power that you can switch on and off easily. And, and so he wants to add in a

00:37:04.140 natural gas plant as backup for wind and solar. And even that he's getting a hard time from the

00:37:11.520 federal government on. It seems to be ideology first, reality second. Absolutely. You know,

00:37:17.560 and I, I've said there was a nuclear conference here. Um, of course, looking at nuclear, looking

00:37:22.200 at natural gas, there's a, you know, a company in Europe that that's basically looking at expanding

00:37:27.300 its natural gas presence, but it's doing it in order to shut down coal plants around the world

00:37:32.120 because it'll have the big single biggest environmental impact of anything else that's

00:37:38.180 happening and doing it in timely in the quickest. You look at hydrogen, it's going to be out 10 years

00:37:43.240 before we really have any significant volume. Some companies will say it's going to be out 25 years

00:37:49.280 before there'll be any significant volume. SMRs are out 10 years. Um, you know, so you're basically

00:37:55.640 saying, okay, what are the options? We, we had a situation here back in, um, it was in February

00:38:02.540 of this winter, real cold snap, but 48 hours. It was a time when we had everything running,

00:38:08.420 fortunately in the province, Quebec shut us off on power. So we didn't get any from Quebec. First

00:38:13.400 time in history, I think they've ever shut us off. They've turned us back a bit, but they actually

00:38:17.700 said, no, we have nothing to supply you. And, and our windmills that, cause we had high winds,

00:38:22.620 cold temperatures and the windmills went from a production of about 160 megawatts down to less

00:38:29.440 than 20. So they, their power output dropped like a stone because the wind was too strong

00:38:35.120 and it was too cold and the windmills cannot function in that sort of environment. When people

00:38:40.200 would have thought that, oh, the wind is least blowing strongly. So that's good. Well, that's the

00:38:45.760 reality. And I feel like, couldn't we step back, have a scientific analysis of how we can do what we

00:38:52.440 can and in what timeline and not just have an overarching view that, well, in our case here,

00:38:58.340 we, we build Atlantic loop and all will be fine. Um, you know, that's the reality part of the

00:39:04.180 discussion that I guess I would love to see happen. So we're not basing it on a political

00:39:08.480 kind of, um, belief, but basing it on the reality of supply and not handing over our energy source

00:39:15.480 to, uh, to, uh, to other countries that don't come anywhere near the standards that we already

00:39:20.600 have. Premier Higgs, what, uh, what are you hearing from other premiers in your discussions with, um,

00:39:29.960 the stands you're taking, whether it's, uh, on the school issue or, uh, you know, in, uh,

00:39:34.380 your battle with, uh, with Prime Minister Trudeau, uh, trying to shut down one of your main industries,

00:39:40.020 what are you hearing from your, your fellow premiers? Well, just as I've described in

00:39:44.180 relation to the, the, the, the situation around shutting down traditional industries at a time

00:39:49.180 when we haven't, we don't have any options. Um, they're all very concerned with that. This

00:39:52.720 refinery in this case supplies all the Atlantic region. And, and so if this, this, um, need is

00:39:58.520 coming from elsewhere and we lose the, the, the economic impact, it'll be massive on the Brunswick,

00:40:04.480 but it'll be massive on the, on the region. And how many jobs would that be? I mean, I'm a full

00:40:09.420 disclosure. My son, uh, eldest son, um, is currently waiting to get back in to work at the refinery.

00:40:17.240 Um, and so I have a, a vested interest in making sure that my son has a job, but, uh, you know,

00:40:23.100 he's an occasional worker in there, goes in and out with the union as, as things are needed,

00:40:27.000 but there are people there full time. How many jobs would be lost if that refinery left?

00:40:32.780 Oh, well, the refinery, I guess the refinery in itself, we're probably talking in around the 2000.

00:40:39.420 Um, but I mean, the, the, the jobs, the, the ramifications of, of that refinery and the

00:40:45.760 economic impact into that refinery, I, I think there was an estimate given that it could impact

00:40:50.480 around 20,000 jobs. That is just incredible. Yeah, it is. It is incredible. And especially

00:40:57.200 when options are limited. So it is, my colleagues are all in the same vein there of, of, of the issues

00:41:03.280 and the reality. Now we have the clean fuel standard that's being brought forward and that's

00:41:08.220 coming into effect July 1st. And, and so we, we think fuel is going to go up again, another 10 cents

00:41:13.960 in New Brunswick or so. And, and, um, you know, you say right today, inflation is, is hitting us hard.

00:41:20.720 We're, we're coming up with a housing policy to, to help get through the housing crisis. Cause we've

00:41:24.960 had such a population increase here, um, which is great news, but it's something we hadn't really

00:41:30.080 experienced much of in the past. But, but my point, I guess it's, it's, it's kind of like

00:41:34.820 all of this is adding up on people in the province. All of this is adding up to high cost of living

00:41:39.980 and, and what's going to offset that. So at what point do you take a pause and you take a break?

00:41:45.940 And I think the difficulty is, is everyone wants to be a better, um, advocate for climate change.

00:41:53.680 And everyone wants to understand what can we do in our part and feel like, okay, well,

00:41:57.360 if I'm paying more at the pump, uh, I'm doing my part. But when you look at the reality of what are

00:42:02.600 going to be the big changes that are going to really move the bar, so we're getting, uh, improved

00:42:07.420 results, then you put back, say, okay, here are the gaps. Here's what the reality, and here's what

00:42:13.100 we should be paying in order to survive this and balance it out going forward. We're just not putting

00:42:18.940 all the factors in the equation and we're allowing it to become a, a very hollow political debate.

00:42:25.600 And that's, that's the, the, the discouraging part for me being an engineer. Um, I like to see the

00:42:32.560 analysis. I like to see the gaps and I like to understand clearly what's going to fill those

00:42:37.180 gaps. Premier Higgs, thank you very much for your time today. You're very welcome, Ryan. I appreciate

00:42:42.600 the opportunity. Full comment is a post media podcast. My name's Brian Lilly, your host. This

00:42:47.900 episode was produced by Andre Pru with theme music by Bryce Hall. Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:42:53.700 You can subscribe to full comment on Apple podcasts, Google, Spotify, listen on the app,

00:42:58.900 your Alexa enabled device. And of course, give us a rating or leave a review and tell your friends

00:43:04.200 about this by sharing it on social media. Thanks for listening until next time. I'm Brian Lilly.

Full Comment - June 26, 2023

Blaine Higgs on why he won’t relent on New Brunswick’s school-gender controversy

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