Blaine Higgs on why he won’t relent on New Brunswick’s school-gender controversy
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Summary
Blaine Higgs is the premier of New Brunswick, a province that has a policy that requires teachers and school officials to notify the parents before they can change the name or pronouns of children in their schools. It s creating controversy in the province, and questions about the role of parents in their child s education.
Transcript
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New Brunswick doesn't make national news all that often, and the same can be said of their
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provincial politics. It's much the same. But right now, New Brunswick and its provincial
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political scene is very much making national headlines. Hi, I'm Brian Lilly. This is the Full
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Comment Podcast. And before we bring on our next guest, who is in the middle of the political
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firestorm that is happening in New Brunswick, I want to remind you that you can subscribe to the
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Full Comment Podcast on any app or device that you're listening on, whether it's Apple Podcasts,
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Google, Spotify, Amazon, wherever you're listening. Please give us a subscribe, give us a like,
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leave a review, help spread the word. As I said, New Brunswick is not known for creating national
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headlines. It's a lovely place to visit. It's a beautiful spot, but it tends to be a bit quieter
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than what we deal with here in the big smoke, where it seems that Toronto politics and Toronto
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or Ontario-based issues dominate the national discussion. So what is it that has put New
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Brunswick front and center? It's a change in school policy for the province that says before teachers
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and school officials are able to change the name or the pronouns of children in their schools,
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they need to notify the parents. Sounds pretty common sense to most people. In fact,
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polls show the vast majority of Canadians straight across the country agree with that policy,
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but it's creating controversy in the government of Blaine Higgs. The premier has lost at least one
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member. Things are moving fast, so those numbers may change, and he's facing a revolt as well.
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What's driving all this? What brought about his decision? And is this a hill he's willing to die on?
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Blaine Higgs joins me now from Fredericton. Thanks for the time, Premier.
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Take us back to the genesis of this school policy. Were you reversing something that was
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in place already or establishing standards because of direction school boards or school districts
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Well, the policy came in very quietly back in 2020, and it became more evident in the last
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little while of what was actually happening in schools. And it really came to light during a
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professional development day when some of the agenda items were identified that were going to
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be discussed and brought about in that agenda for that day. So then it started to be the question
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about, okay, so what are the details around how this is handled within the system? And are parents
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aware, you know, when something as significant as gender identity is being discussed? For elementary
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kids that, you know, are obviously at very early stages of their life and development and, you know,
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have a lot of questions, how do the parents get involved? And what we learned is that actually the
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policy purposely did not have include the parents. So they were excluded from the process. So it kind
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of, it kind of was on the fundamental that all parents are incapable of managing sensitive issues
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with their children. And, and I don't think we should dismiss parents at such a key time in a child's
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life. So, so that's what started. And then the more that parents became aware of what was happening,
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then the more traction it got in terms of what, what are we doing about this? And why aren't we
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addressing this? And why am I excluded from my child's upbringing? So, so what we wanted to do
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was improve the process so that we don't put children at risk. And, and I, and I, because
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obviously that is very, very concerning as well, but we also don't exclude parents as just a matter of
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course. This is an issue that across North America has become a lightning rod. And in some places in the
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United States, they've gone to the point of, uh, when it comes to gender identity or transgendered
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issues, just saying, you can't talk about it in schools or banning, uh, certain types of materials.
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You're not going that direction. You're not saying, you know, we're not going to discuss gender
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identity in schools, or you're banned from discussing certain things. Are you?
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Well, we're not Brian in that sense, but it did come to light in terms of, you know, some of the
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issues around, um, you know, drag story time and what, what kids, um, you know, we're learning at
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very early ages. I mean, even toddlers in some cases, uh, in, in, um, in libraries or in the,
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in the case of kindergarten and schools, but we're not prescribing that we're, we're basically saying
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if there are challenges and concerns, then, then the last person to find out shouldn't be the parents.
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And, and then how do we protect the child? So obviously we're, we're saying, what resources
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do we need to provide? So children are protected and that we have a system in place that ultimately,
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um, the child and the parent can have a discussion, uh, about how they feel. And, and we know that there
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are some parental situations that would be very, very significant and there'd be adversarial. And that
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may apply to a lot of situations the child is facing, nothing to do with gender identity.
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And we don't want to make that worse or expose the kids at all. So, so, but having to talk about this
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and finding a path forward where, where, you know, families continue to play a critical role
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in the foundation that our society cherish, cherishes and not have children become more or less the
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responsibility of the state with exclusion of parents. I don't think that's a direction our
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society, um, certainly wants to be in. And I guess I find it really quite, uh, surprising in some ways
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that, that questioning the role of a parent and child's upbringing is really a debate.
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Well, you've been called far right by the prime minister. That's something that, uh, people who've met
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you, covered you, um, as I have would be quite shocked by, I mean, you, you, you've always seemed
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to me to very moderate middle of the road person, um, in, in my dealings with you, the Globe and Mail
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though, um, they didn't go as far as the prime minister, but their editorial, uh, about a week ago
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said the headline was the state has a duty to protect trans students. And then further down in relation to
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what you were just saying, um, they said the premier and his supporters are getting things backward.
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It's the fundamental responsibility of parents to know what is going on with their kids. If they do not,
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that is their failing, not a teacher's. How do you respond to the Globe and Mail saying that you've got
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it backwards and that it's a failing of the parents, if not?
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Well, um, I guess, Brian, if you have a policy that purposely excludes the parents, even to the point that
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everyone in the school would know this child or their, their child by a, by a different name or a different
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gender. And even to the point that if it was a parent, a parent teacher's day, that, that there would be
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material removed from the classroom that would in any way give, um, um, any sort of indication that there was a
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gender identity, uh, difference. If that is the policy, then, then how do you blame that on the
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parent? If they are purposely excluded from, from the process? So, so what we're seeing and certainly
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the, the huge outpouring from parents is I want to know what's happening in our, in my school with my
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child. And when we, but what do you say to the Globe and Mail when they, they argue that, well,
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you should know what's going on and, and, and you're failing as a parent if you don't know.
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So why should the school tell you? Well, I, I guess, Brian, I would say that that is all reverse
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to what in reality should happen because, because the, how does a parent find out if indeed the
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school purposely holds information from them? We don't, we don't do that with, with so many things
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that require consent. And we're talking children under 16 years of age here. Um, everything that
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happens in the school requires consent, but you can change your identity and your pronoun, and that
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doesn't require any sort of connection at all. In fact, just the opposite. I would say that in this
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situation, the, the, the, who's got it wrong would be the, the comments from the Globe and Mail that
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parents, uh, it's okay. What they seem to be saying is it's okay for parents not to, not to be told the
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real truth about their children. But what is, what is also part of that, that I want to qualify, it's
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necessary to have a process in the system. So children are protected and we have the right people that
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are engaged with the child. So it becomes counselors, psychologists, psychiatrists, however it needs to
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happen. And we don't put that burden on teachers, but we have the right qualifications so that we're sure
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that the meetings are held, the child is protected, and at the right time, the parents are engaged. So
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they're part of this child's learning and upbringing.
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What you're describing to me sounds like you're trying to find a balance between protecting children
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and not excluding parents. Would, would you say that's...
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So, you know, you're not going the direction of some American governors, as I said. As far as this
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policy that you're reversing, uh, with 713, how young did it go? There's been a lot of talk of
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teenagers and that, well, you know, by the time you're 14, 15, you already have the ability to do
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so many things that, uh, don't require parental consent, even within the school setting. How young did
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this policy go? The one that you're now seeking to reverse?
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Well, and, and, and I would say seeking to clarify and, and, and makes improvements, uh, on, it went as,
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As young as four, with no parental involvement.
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You're facing a, a firestorm over this though, aren't you? You've, you've lost one cabinet minister?
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Yes, um, I am. And you know, so, so, um, Brian, I'm, I'm a grandfather and I'm a father and, and I,
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when I think of, um, issues as significant as this and, and life altering issues, you know,
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that could lead to, you know, major irreversible changes in, in, in an individual that, that could,
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in fact, you know, um, look down the road or in 10 years or 15 years and look back and say,
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well, why did I make irreversible changes to, to, to my, to my body? Uh, I, I just want to be in the
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process where they have the support they need. And also I think we should, we should learn more
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from what is happening around us, particularly in Europe. And, and I think there's a lot of
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information there of what, what kids that have gone through this and where they are now and what,
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what they're looking back on is what they learned or were exposed to and, and what help they had or
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didn't have during the process of, of understanding. So, but to say, and, and I know I've been called
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just about everything, um, but to say we can't talk about it and to say we can't have an adult
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conversation of the role of parents in a child's life, um, you know, it's, it's a very hard concept
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for me to understand that we, we, we think it's okay to remove parents from key, key elements of,
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of a child's upbringing. I find that really disturbing in our society that, that we consider
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that. Okay. You, you deal with prime minister, Justin Trudeau on a regular basis on a number of
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files. You're of different political stripes, but you've come to agreements on, on healthcare,
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on childcare, on, on various issues. How did it feel hearing him go to an event and say, quote,
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quote, far right political actors are trying to outdo themselves with the types of cruelty
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and isolation they can inflict on these already vulnerable people. Right now, trans kids in New
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Brunswick are being told they don't have the right to be themselves, that they need to ask permission,
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while trans kids need to feel safe, not targeted by politicians. End quote. He, he called you far right.
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He said you were targeting children. How do you have a, have you had a conversation with the
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prime minister since then? How do you, how do you deal with them when he's using language like that
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to describe you? Well, obviously, Ryan, it's, it's extremely disappointing that these, not only is
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this a provincial jurisdiction, but for, for the prime minister to make a statement like that,
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um, at a time, maybe he, he's trying to deflect from some of the other issues that we have in our
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country and the challenges we're facing as a country, but to, to use this as a, um, kind of a,
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uh, a political kind of, um, volley and, and, and, and, in the same vein, dismissing the role of parents.
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And in this case, in New Brunswick and the concerns they have, see, you, you can't do one without
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the other. You, you, you, we need to protect. So we need to do both. That's where the balance comes
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in. You, you need to protect the child, but you also need to ensure that parents have a responsibility
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and parents don't take the responsibility lightly. And I think that's commendable because we need them
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to be engaged. So I'm extremely disappointed that the prime minister believes that that's not
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necessary. When I've been in discussions with people about this, they always come up with the,
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well, we shouldn't tell parents because kids aren't safe at home. And my issue with that is
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that it assumes that every parent is an abusive parent, that parents will not respond with love.
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I've talked to various people who have had to, uh, at different stages of their life, come out to
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their parents. And no matter how loving the parents are, it's a stressful situation for, uh, the people
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I've talked to, uh, but most, the vast majority of them have experienced love and acceptance and the
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supporters of this policy run with the accusation that the child's life will be in danger, that the
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parent may murder them. I don't think that that is realistic view of parents. I think it's an insulting
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view of parents. Um, I'd like your reaction to that. Well, I feel the same way. And then certainly
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when, when I looked, um, we got deeper into this policy, it actually did take that premise that,
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that all parents are, are incapable of, of working through tough issues with their kids.
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And, and, and so I, I take the opposite view and say, no, no, I believe all parents love their
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children and all parents want the best for their children. And, and whether, whatever the difficult
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situation may be, parents want to be in the middle to help and protect. And so the, yes, there will be
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cases and, and I won't deny that there will be cases where the life at home, uh, may not be conducive
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to, to, to bringing in something as significant as gender identity and how will parents manage that.
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That's why we say very clearly, if that situation exists at home, first of all, we should know that
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through our network of this child coming to school on a regular basis and the challenges they're facing
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at home. So that wouldn't be a complete unknown, but to ensure that that would be recognized,
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the conditions at home, we would have these counselors in the middle of this so that we would be sure the
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individual, the child would be protected and would not be put in a position that would, would endanger
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them in any way, shape, or form. So, so we can, we can strike this balance, but there has to be a
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recognition that parents are needed to, to be part of a child's life in order for them to develop and
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grow and, and, and then move into the future with responsibilities that they've learned, uh, from home
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and adults and, and be part of that societal, uh, support system. So there's a, there's an opportunity
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here to, to have those discussions to make this work for everyone.
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Most politicians wouldn't fight on this, um, even though polling shows that the majority of people
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agree with what you're doing. I want to read a question from a Leger poll that was done in May.
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The poll asked, should schools have to let parents know about their child's desire to change gender
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or have new gender pronouns? 57% across the country said yes. Um, the lowest support was in BC where it
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was 49% said yes, but in every demographic group, uh, age and gender, people said yes. Among households
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with kids living in them, it was 62%. And in Atlantic Canada, I don't have New Brunswick specific
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numbers, but in Atlantic Canada, that support was 69%. So if that's the, uh, if that's where the public
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is at, why aren't more politicians willing to stand up and say what is a very balanced approach that you
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brought forward? Parents should know we need to protect children. Why don't more politicians stand up
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and do that? And why are you facing such a backlash in your own party over this?
00:19:07.500
Well, Brian, it is, it is a sensitive issue and, and many would prefer to, you know, not have the
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tough discussions. I guess when I, when I ran, I mean, I had an extensive career outside of politics.
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Um, so when I first ran for office, it's been 13 years ago now, um, I, I ran with the, with the,
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with the concept, uh, that we could deliver better services for the people in the province, but we
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could, we could get better results by making real decisions. And, and to me, there isn't anything more
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important than the foundational, um, the foundational capability of our, of our families and the support
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structure needed for kids to, to develop. And, and so when I think of big issues that have a lasting
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impact on our society and, and on our, on our province or on our nation, this is one of them. And I didn't
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kind of come here to, for, for a good time, I guess, maybe, uh, might be a phrase. I came here to make
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long-term views of how we can improve our society and our province at the same time. So I'm not afraid
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to wade into these issues, but I know that it is extremely sensitive and many, and I understand it.
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I, I really do. And it's tough. It's tough when your colleagues, you know, say, I can't, I can't be
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involved. But the majority of our caucus did support this and they did support the need for parents to
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have a role. So that's what we're moving on is that we need to, to face this and have the good
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discussion and find a path forward because it's important to the future generation of our families
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and our kids. Um, just looking at, at the headlines and meant many of them, uh, taking you on, on this
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come from CBC one saying Blaine Higgs, a visitor to the PC party may soon be shown the door. Uh, that
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was a piece, uh, posted on June 22nd day before PC rebels say majority of riding presidents support
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ousting Higgs. You had the majority of MPs vote with you. Is there something else driving this
00:21:09.520
attempted coup and in your party's leadership? Yes. Um, this, this issue certainly, uh, has provided
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a catalyst for some, but I would dare say that every, um, mostly everyone, I guess you can never
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say everyone, um, would certainly believe there's a role for parents here in this, in this process.
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Uh, but there has been a bit of an agenda from, from, um, uh, kind of different pockets in the
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province that, that would, would like to see, uh, maybe my, uh, my position or leader of the party
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end. And, and, and I guess it, it, it comes down to my, my focus from the very beginning.
00:21:50.180
I ran on a policy of province first, politics second. And, and I know I'm not a long standing,
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you know, PC member as such. Um, but, but I, I believe what's best for the province is also
00:22:03.160
best for the party. And, and it means doing what's necessary in order to see our province
00:22:08.480
thrive to every part of our province thrive and, and have people all grow with that and
00:22:13.620
be part of a large, a larger initiative. And that's been my goal from the beginning. So
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I've kind of gone into this job, very focused on service delivery, on improved performance,
00:22:25.140
better decision-making, getting into the tough issues, because for years they would just kind
00:22:30.980
of kick down the road. And, and I guess, so I am a different politician in that regard,
00:22:36.180
but I just, I need people to look at the big picture and say, okay, if you don't like my
00:22:42.580
management style, I mean, I, I did come from a business management style and I, I, I know that.
00:22:48.420
And so if, if that's, and I, and I apologize to my colleagues, if, if that is, you know,
00:22:54.240
been an issue that, that makes it difficult, but look at the bigger picture and what's actually
00:22:59.560
happening in our province and just pull back a little minute and say, wow, isn't it great to
00:23:06.280
be part of a government that is facing the big challenges and making the decisions that are,
00:23:12.300
that are best for our province as a whole in every corner.
00:23:15.080
I, I ask for that sort of reflection and not for, to make it personal in any way. And that's the way
00:23:23.320
I look at it. Yes, I have some significant detractors at this point, but, but I, I don't
00:23:29.360
want to make it personal. I want to make it, let's stay focused on, on the big picture.
00:23:34.300
You're right. You come from a different political background, including you used to be a liberal.
00:23:39.820
We'll get into that in a little bit, but I also, after we take a quick break here,
00:23:43.540
I do want to talk to you, Premier Higgs, about fighting the federal government and fighting
00:23:49.240
for jobs at places like Irving, which is threatening to pull up stakes, which just seems
00:23:55.340
unfathomable. And it would be a huge economic blow for, for your province. So we'll talk about that
00:24:02.540
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Is the technology such that it's going to go up? Is it going to come down? Do you think it's going
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to be just sort of an extrapolation of where it is right now?
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Well, I think, I think there's a lot of smart people wrestling with that right now.
00:25:12.100
Today, I'm speaking with Michelle Herodance. She's the Executive Vice President of Enbridge Inc.
00:25:17.500
and President of Enbridge Gas. She's a leader helping us reshape how millions of us
00:25:24.820
Join me, Chris Hadfield, on the On Energy podcast.
00:25:31.500
Premier Higgs, you do describe yourself as a different type of politician. Give me a
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quick elevator pitch. How did you come to be leader of the PC party? You started out early on as a
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liberal, and then eventually you went to a party that we don't have outside of New Brunswick,
00:25:48.420
the Confederation of Region Parties. Then you were in a, you know, a finance minister in a previous
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PC government. Give us a short description of your, your political journey there.
00:26:01.300
Okay, well, I guess in correction, you know, and yes, I would have voted in different directions over
00:26:05.720
the years. My, my dad was, was, and mom were, were certainly strong liberals. And I, I joked around
00:26:12.580
when I got elected as a, as a conservative, that I wondered if they actually voted for me. Now my mom,
00:26:18.360
my mom said that yes, he did. I said, do you think dad did? And, and, and she said, well, I, I had to
00:26:23.540
help him in the, in the booth there. So I'm, I'm, I know he did. So anyway, it was kind of a longstanding
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joke, but, but I, I never ran or was a liberal per se, but regardless of all that, yes, I was involved
00:26:39.300
years ago and in a, in a kind of an upstart party looking for changes in, in our, in our province
00:26:45.360
that would be reflective of, of moving forward and not be caught in the typical political kind of
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back and forth. But then that was back. I was in my mid thirties then. And so I went back to work
00:26:56.880
for 20 years and, and then retired from Irving Oil after a 33 year career, um, at the age of 56.
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So, and my goal at that time was I, I, I wanted to, I wanted to make use of what I'd learned to make
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better decisions using facts and analysis and, and criteria, building better service models for,
00:27:19.100
for a delivery. Cause, cause in, in the situation working with Irving, our, our, our focus was always
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better results for customers because it customers were paying our, our, our, our bills and our
00:27:30.300
salaries. So I, I kind of took that model here and say, you know, the, the, the electorate are really
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our customers and, and we should be delivering better service. So why can't we all have a higher
00:27:40.260
level of commitment to service delivery for the tax dollars that, that our citizens pay? So, so that
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has been the focus from the beginning. When I ran, we, I ran initially and I was finance minister for,
00:27:52.100
for, for, um, four years. That was 2010 to 14. I, I, um, you know, we, we did find a lot of
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opportunities to help improve and we were making improvements on, you know, some huge capital
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spending that was, was committed during the election, trying to get ourselves out of this
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hole. And then we lost election in 14. And, and I'm, Brian, I would mention something that is so
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evident in the system. We continually put ourselves back every time we have a new government. So in
00:28:24.340
our case, New Brunswick, every four years, there were all kinds of commitments and promises being
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made in order to get elected. And then you got to try to dig your hole out, uh, dig out of the hole
00:28:33.160
rather in order to, to, uh, actually get back on track financially. So when I ran for leadership in
00:28:40.320
2016, so I won my riding, but we were out of government. Uh, so I was in opposition. Uh, I had
00:28:48.100
a lot of new people join the party, people that wanted to see a change in politics. And I mentioned
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earlier about province first, uh, politics second. These were people that had, had never been involved
00:28:59.880
in politics before, but wanted a new version of, of how do we manage our province? So I won the
00:29:06.100
leadership in 2016. And then we had our first provincial election in 2018. So we had our first
00:29:13.120
minority government in, in, um, a hundred years, but I, I only promised, uh, I think like 80 million
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or maybe a hundred million on a, on a, uh, I forget the exact number, but a fraction of what my opponent
00:29:26.880
was, was promising. Um, because I knew that if I, if I promised all of this spending, I could never get
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a physical, uh, their physical house in order. We were able to balance the budget the very first
00:29:40.380
year in office. And this wasn't at a time when the economy was growing. Our, our economy was flat
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or stagnant at a one and a half percent in that range, but we balanced the very first year in
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office. And, and then we balanced ever since the next five years. And, and we, we managed our
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resources and we've reduced taxes. We've, we've re in both property taxes, income taxes, and we've
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raised the level of spending in healthcare education to unprecedented levels, even in capital
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spending, but we continue to balance the budget and pay down the debt. So it is possible to manage
00:30:12.160
the, the taxpayer dollars and get better results. And, and, and so I focused on that, but did I focus
00:30:19.040
as much as I should have, uh, maybe in, in staying closer to the, the writings and the presidents.
00:30:24.420
We, we worked with them in, in case of what they needed in their writings in terms of the,
00:30:29.100
the, the, the issues around the roads or schools or any of this stuff or healthcare. Um, but, but I,
00:30:36.160
I probably didn't spend as much time in discussing, you know, directly with the individual party
00:30:42.620
presidents and, and, and, uh, and the, the organization as such, even though the organization
00:30:46.820
is doing better than historically ever has. So there lies the challenge. And I, you know, I,
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so I have focused on the, on the, the, the business of running the province and everyone
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will kind of can't argue that point. And, and maybe I've done that to my own detriment,
00:31:04.100
but at the end of the day, regardless of what happens, this is an issue that I will stand or fall
00:31:10.120
on. And I will hold my head proud because we are, we, if I, if I don't survive this, we're,
00:31:17.560
our province is so much stronger today than it has been practically in its history, but, um,
00:31:27.540
You said, um, that your view is, uh, province first party second, and whether it's province,
00:31:34.400
country, what have you, I think that's always what the outlook should be. I don't think all
00:31:38.860
politicians do that though. And I look at what's happening in New Brunswick where Irvine oil is a
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major, uh, employer, a major economic engine. And no matter how much you believe that we need to
00:31:54.520
reduce dependence on fossil fuels, we're going to need it for quite some time.
00:32:00.720
But our current prime minister has, is bringing in a suite of policies that are at the point where
00:32:07.900
Irvine oil is saying, we're looking to sell or close up shop or do something, but it's just not
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feasible here. What was your reaction when you, you heard that? And, and the prime minister's,
00:32:20.740
uh, government say, uh, to Irving and to everybody else, yeah, we're bringing in a new tax, but you
00:32:27.600
can't pass it on to your customers. You've got to eat that. I mean, that's part of why Irving is saying,
00:32:31.680
you know what, we got to get out of here. So do you feel like the prime minister with some of his
00:32:37.900
policies is putting his, his ideology ahead of what's good for the provinces or what's good for
00:32:44.400
the country? Absolutely. There, there, there is not a recognition of the reality of, of what we'll
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be using for energy sources going forward. And, and it's like we're putting Canton in a bubble here
00:32:56.220
and, and saying that, um, well, we're just not going to produce this sort of, um, you know,
00:33:01.980
the fossil fuel generation that we've had over the year. We're just changing all that instantly. Um,
00:33:06.860
and, and, and the fact is that if this refinery doesn't run, then we'll buy refined fuel from India
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or, or the Middle East, or we'll buy it from, you know, other, other countries that don't have
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anywhere close to the standards of operational excellence and, and reduced emissions that,
00:33:25.000
that our own operations have here, not only in New Brunswick, but in the industries across the
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country. So we've seen the exodus of, of capital investment leave, leave Alberta and Saskatchewan.
00:33:34.700
And we're seeing it here right in this announcement, which, which I am disappointed.
00:33:39.020
Am I shocked given the policies? No, not shocked, but disappointed because the refinery has,
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has been certainly on an average year would put three or 400 million into the, into the, uh,
00:33:51.380
operation. And, and, but during the policies that have been put forward, the policies that are really
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kind of killing energy investment in, in, uh, in New Brunswick and in Canada, they, they basically
00:34:03.260
didn't recognize the standards of performance that the refinery had already spent money on.
00:34:08.760
And if I give a little example, that going back to when ethanol became part of the,
00:34:12.920
the gasoline fuel standard, and it was considered a, you know, a big environmental move at 10%,
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Irving Oil was one of the first in the country to adopt that. If not the first, I think it was the
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first. And, and then, so then you have added on the carbon credits that are designed to have
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refiners or, you know, heavy industries to invest in new technology to reduce the emission standards.
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So not only do they not get credit from past, past, uh, sort of environmental standards on which
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they would have been leading the country, but no, it doesn't matter. You're going to have to be 20%
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better than you were, whatever the number of better than you are right now, but they were already,
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let's say 25 or 30% better than any other operation, but no recognition for that. And
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then to add insult to injury, the carbon tax, um, or the carbon credit system to buy carbon credits,
00:35:02.040
and you could, you could put carbon credits against your production and then, but the money had to be
00:35:08.900
used for make, let's say, hydrogen production or some other environmental improvement. But the
00:35:13.300
refinery that's built on an export capability, uh, because it, it supplies the New England market,
00:35:19.120
um, Boston and North or New York and North, I should say, um, the carbon, the carbon credits did not
00:35:26.440
apply to export barrels. That's 80% of the barrels coming out of this refinery do not qualify for the
00:35:33.020
carbon credit. So that immediately puts them in a huge disadvantage. And you'd say, well, why would
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that be the case? Because basically you're in a situation that these barrels are just going across
00:35:45.220
the border here in Maine, um, in, in, um, but yet they don't qualify. So are we in this bubble here
00:35:52.580
in, in New Brunswick or in Canada? So, so the reality of the energy requirements that we need
00:35:58.880
are just not being recognized. It's, it's kind of an artificial view of what's reality. We're all
00:36:06.260
moving to a cleaner fuel, cleaner environment. I, I've visited, uh, you know, different companies when I
00:36:12.300
was in Europe looked at their energy plan. We're building an energy plan and we're looking very
00:36:17.380
seriously at how we, you know, can reduce our consumption. We could shut down four coal plants
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in the Atlantic region and do it within two years. And we could do that because we have a huge natural
00:36:29.380
gas resource here, but the federal government is putting taxes upon taxes on that, that alone
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by converting coal to natural gas would reduce our emissions in the Atlantic Canada by 50%.
00:36:44.020
I was talking with Premier Scott Moe and he was telling me that they have a wind and solar plan
00:36:50.360
for Saskatchewan, but as everyone knows with wind and solar, it doesn't work all the time. And so you
00:36:57.040
need to have a baseload power that you can switch on and off easily. And, and so he wants to add in a
00:37:04.140
natural gas plant as backup for wind and solar. And even that he's getting a hard time from the
00:37:11.520
federal government on. It seems to be ideology first, reality second. Absolutely. You know,
00:37:17.560
and I, I've said there was a nuclear conference here. Um, of course, looking at nuclear, looking
00:37:22.200
at natural gas, there's a, you know, a company in Europe that that's basically looking at expanding
00:37:27.300
its natural gas presence, but it's doing it in order to shut down coal plants around the world
00:37:32.120
because it'll have the big single biggest environmental impact of anything else that's
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happening and doing it in timely in the quickest. You look at hydrogen, it's going to be out 10 years
00:37:43.240
before we really have any significant volume. Some companies will say it's going to be out 25 years
00:37:49.280
before there'll be any significant volume. SMRs are out 10 years. Um, you know, so you're basically
00:37:55.640
saying, okay, what are the options? We, we had a situation here back in, um, it was in February
00:38:02.540
of this winter, real cold snap, but 48 hours. It was a time when we had everything running,
00:38:08.420
fortunately in the province, Quebec shut us off on power. So we didn't get any from Quebec. First
00:38:13.400
time in history, I think they've ever shut us off. They've turned us back a bit, but they actually
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said, no, we have nothing to supply you. And, and our windmills that, cause we had high winds,
00:38:22.620
cold temperatures and the windmills went from a production of about 160 megawatts down to less
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than 20. So they, their power output dropped like a stone because the wind was too strong
00:38:35.120
and it was too cold and the windmills cannot function in that sort of environment. When people
00:38:40.200
would have thought that, oh, the wind is least blowing strongly. So that's good. Well, that's the
00:38:45.760
reality. And I feel like, couldn't we step back, have a scientific analysis of how we can do what we
00:38:52.440
can and in what timeline and not just have an overarching view that, well, in our case here,
00:38:58.340
we, we build Atlantic loop and all will be fine. Um, you know, that's the reality part of the
00:39:04.180
discussion that I guess I would love to see happen. So we're not basing it on a political
00:39:08.480
kind of, um, belief, but basing it on the reality of supply and not handing over our energy source
00:39:15.480
to, uh, to, uh, to other countries that don't come anywhere near the standards that we already
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have. Premier Higgs, what, uh, what are you hearing from other premiers in your discussions with, um,
00:39:29.960
the stands you're taking, whether it's, uh, on the school issue or, uh, you know, in, uh,
00:39:34.380
your battle with, uh, with Prime Minister Trudeau, uh, trying to shut down one of your main industries,
00:39:40.020
what are you hearing from your, your fellow premiers? Well, just as I've described in
00:39:44.180
relation to the, the, the, the situation around shutting down traditional industries at a time
00:39:49.180
when we haven't, we don't have any options. Um, they're all very concerned with that. This
00:39:52.720
refinery in this case supplies all the Atlantic region. And, and so if this, this, um, need is
00:39:58.520
coming from elsewhere and we lose the, the, the economic impact, it'll be massive on the Brunswick,
00:40:04.480
but it'll be massive on the, on the region. And how many jobs would that be? I mean, I'm a full
00:40:09.420
disclosure. My son, uh, eldest son, um, is currently waiting to get back in to work at the refinery.
00:40:17.240
Um, and so I have a, a vested interest in making sure that my son has a job, but, uh, you know,
00:40:23.100
he's an occasional worker in there, goes in and out with the union as, as things are needed,
00:40:27.000
but there are people there full time. How many jobs would be lost if that refinery left?
00:40:32.780
Oh, well, the refinery, I guess the refinery in itself, we're probably talking in around the 2000.
00:40:39.420
Um, but I mean, the, the, the jobs, the, the ramifications of, of that refinery and the
00:40:45.760
economic impact into that refinery, I, I think there was an estimate given that it could impact
00:40:50.480
around 20,000 jobs. That is just incredible. Yeah, it is. It is incredible. And especially
00:40:57.200
when options are limited. So it is, my colleagues are all in the same vein there of, of, of the issues
00:41:03.280
and the reality. Now we have the clean fuel standard that's being brought forward and that's
00:41:08.220
coming into effect July 1st. And, and so we, we think fuel is going to go up again, another 10 cents
00:41:13.960
in New Brunswick or so. And, and, um, you know, you say right today, inflation is, is hitting us hard.
00:41:20.720
We're, we're coming up with a housing policy to, to help get through the housing crisis. Cause we've
00:41:24.960
had such a population increase here, um, which is great news, but it's something we hadn't really
00:41:30.080
experienced much of in the past. But, but my point, I guess it's, it's, it's kind of like
00:41:34.820
all of this is adding up on people in the province. All of this is adding up to high cost of living
00:41:39.980
and, and what's going to offset that. So at what point do you take a pause and you take a break?
00:41:45.940
And I think the difficulty is, is everyone wants to be a better, um, advocate for climate change.
00:41:53.680
And everyone wants to understand what can we do in our part and feel like, okay, well,
00:41:57.360
if I'm paying more at the pump, uh, I'm doing my part. But when you look at the reality of what are
00:42:02.600
going to be the big changes that are going to really move the bar, so we're getting, uh, improved
00:42:07.420
results, then you put back, say, okay, here are the gaps. Here's what the reality, and here's what
00:42:13.100
we should be paying in order to survive this and balance it out going forward. We're just not putting
00:42:18.940
all the factors in the equation and we're allowing it to become a, a very hollow political debate.
00:42:25.600
And that's, that's the, the, the discouraging part for me being an engineer. Um, I like to see the
00:42:32.560
analysis. I like to see the gaps and I like to understand clearly what's going to fill those
00:42:37.180
gaps. Premier Higgs, thank you very much for your time today. You're very welcome, Ryan. I appreciate
00:42:42.600
the opportunity. Full comment is a post media podcast. My name's Brian Lilly, your host. This
00:42:47.900
episode was produced by Andre Pru with theme music by Bryce Hall. Kevin Libin is the executive producer.
00:42:53.700
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