Roman Baber is an MPP in Ontario and was a member of Doug Ford's government caucus until January 2021, when he posted a public letter voicing his concerns and opposition to Ford s use of lockdowns and other harsh pandemic management policies.
00:00:12.740Scotiabank. You're richer than you think.
00:00:20.620Hi, I'm Anthony Fury. Thanks for joining us for the latest episode of Full Comment.
00:00:24.480Please consider subscribing if you haven't already.
00:00:26.800We've had conservative leadership candidates Pierre Polyev and Lesley Lewis previously join us on the show.
00:00:31.680Those episodes are still available for you to listen to.
00:00:34.440And we're pleased to have another candidate, Roman Baber, join us today.
00:00:38.020And just by way of disclosure, you should know we have invited Patrick Brown and Jean Charest to join us.
00:00:42.320We're keen to hear from them, but so far we've been unable to connect with them, but we hope to have them join us soon.
00:00:48.840Roman Baber is an MPP in Ontario, and he was a member of Doug Ford's Government Caucus until January 2021,
00:00:55.140when he posted a public letter voicing his concerns and opposition to Ford's use of lockdowns and other harsh pandemic management policies.
00:01:04.060Ford chose to boot Baber from caucus, and Baber has since been an independent MP,
00:01:08.920continuing to offer his critiques of Ontario's COVID policies.
00:01:12.840While he's announced he's not seeking re-election provincially,
00:01:15.080he is now running to be leader of the Federal Conservative Party.
00:01:21.560Roman, thanks so much for joining us. Great to have you on.
00:01:23.580Roman Baber. Good to be with you, Anthony.
00:01:25.800Let's jump right into it. Running to be leader of the Federal Conservatives.
00:01:29.500You've gone from being a provincial MPP. Why are you running for the top job federally now?
00:01:34.600Look, I'm running to restore Canada's democracy, opportunity, and trust in government.
00:01:39.580I stood up for Canadians when it wasn't popular, and I'll continue to do so until restore all rights for all Canadians.
00:01:46.280I've also been very blessed with Canadian opportunity, and I'll restore opportunity with a robust energy, housing, and economic plan.
00:01:54.800I'm in a unique position, I think, Anthony, to unite the Conservative Party, and I'll bring back determination and authenticity to lead it to victory.
00:02:02.460All right, when you talk about restoring some rights, are you suggesting that there are still some rights that are being violated, that are in need of restoration right now?
00:02:12.860Absolutely. Look, over 3 million Canadians are still unable to board a plane or a train.
00:02:20.760You know, I often describe that I was born in the former Soviet Union, and I lived there until I was nine.
00:02:26.420And in the Soviet Union, citizens were unable to board between republics without proper paperwork, and they were unable to leave beyond communist walls.
00:02:36.180And to think that this might be happening in my own country is unthinkable.
00:02:41.520I think that not only is it outright discriminatory to prevent or preclude someone from working because of their medical status,
00:02:52.160I think that making someone choose between their personal medical choice and their ability to put food on the table is simply inhumane.
00:03:00.160And that is on top of the fact that it's no longer based in any science or has any supported rationale.
00:03:07.960I'm sure you've had a number of people ask why you did exactly what you did in terms of posting public opposition to Doug Ford in a way that I know you probably assumed would have seen you remove from caucus.
00:03:19.020Maybe they would have said, well, why don't you be a team player, voice your concerns from within?
00:03:24.040Well, it is well known that I've opposed the lockdown from within starting end of May 2020.
00:03:31.420I figured in early January that the province was not going to turn course on this, despite the fact that we turned the corner,
00:03:39.980we were on the verge of vaccinating everyone in long-term care homes.
00:03:44.660And we've seen that primarily the crisis was contained to congregate setting in long-term care homes.
00:03:51.100We also found out that the virus is very, very transmissible with infection rates significantly higher than we thought that we're making the metrics considerably lower.
00:04:01.320The metrics that we're worried about, like hospitalization and mortality, considerably lower.
00:04:05.760At the same time, I started witnessing a very high collateral toll resulting from the lockdowns.
00:04:13.980And so it became clear that the collateral damage from our public health response is in and of itself also deadly.
00:04:20.720And so I was unwilling to continue watching the difficulty, frankly, the carnage that was imposed by the province on Ontarians.
00:04:31.200And so I published a letter that simply called for a balanced public health response that protects congregate settings, that builds up health care capacity,
00:04:40.880but factors in the toll of lockdowns into our public health response.
00:04:45.040So sometimes when someone says, I'm against the government approach to COVID, one is labeled a denialist or you're an anti-vax or whatnot.
00:04:57.000It sounds like you are talking about still making use of pandemic management policies in terms of dealing with long-term care individuals.
00:05:04.840You're just taking a different approach.
00:05:06.280I mean, what would you say to anyone who has smeared you with those labels?
00:05:09.380Well, look, COVID is a very serious infection and it can be very dangerous to certain folks in certain demographics,
00:05:19.520particularly those over 80 with multiple comorbidities, potentially long-term care residents who are typically on average,
00:05:28.760regretfully in their last year of life, or those with serious metabolic conditions.
00:05:33.500But it's appreciating the nature of the risk that should drive our public policy,
00:05:38.840which is why I urged that we need to focus protection on those that require protection
00:05:43.500and at the same time build hospital capacity, given how transmittable the virus is,
00:05:49.020instead of locking down 15 million Ontarians or 35 million Canadians and making them sick.
00:05:54.820I think that by now the evidence in support of my proposition that lockdowns have also resulted
00:06:03.500in a considerable amount of mortality regretfully and adverse effects regretfully has been proven correct.
00:06:11.500And I'm happy to canvass that, should you wish.
00:06:13.960Yeah, it does seem like the more the weeks and months go by, the more we learn about the various harms
00:06:19.220and damages caused by all of these measures.
00:06:21.000Absolutely. Well, we know that already the Canadian Medical Association suggested that more than 4,000 Canadians
00:06:28.340already passed away from surgeries delayed.
00:06:31.180Ontario alone delayed or cancelled over 300,000 surgeries and procedures.
00:06:36.320We know that between March 2020 and March 2021, the province of Ontario had 1 million cancer screenings less
00:06:45.600And that is very regretful as we know that folks are looking for cancer or either predisposed or of a certain age.
00:06:55.560We had a doctor from McMaster, in fact, Dr. Singh, author a piece in which he said that many children could have been saved from brain tumors
00:07:04.240if they were just diagnosed with cancer six months early.
00:07:07.380And so, add to that, we have an almost doubling of deaths from overdose year over year.
00:07:14.940According to Public Health Ontario, we have an increase of about 78%.
00:07:19.360And we also have a mental health pandemic that has been perpetuated regretfully by public health governments.
00:07:26.940And all of that should be factored or should have been factored in to our public policy response on COVID.
00:07:34.000I know that you and I share a passion in discussing these very important issues.
00:07:38.180At the same time, when it comes to the conservative leadership race,
00:07:40.780we could see ourself in a situation where very soon COVID is pretty much in the rearview mirror.
00:07:46.280What are you hoping to talk about in the months ahead?
00:07:49.120I know there are some politicians who would like to say,
00:07:51.240OK, well, that's a thing in the past COVID has done.
00:07:53.420Do you believe talking about still addressing what happened the past two years needs to be central moving forward?
00:07:59.200Are you planning to campaign on primarily on things that have not much to do with COVID?
00:08:04.780What is what is your view towards the months ahead?
00:08:08.860So, look, of course, I will be presenting a plan to conservative members
00:08:13.860as to how I propose to unite our party and restore Canadian opportunity,
00:08:18.380be it our ability to derive natural resources.
00:08:20.540I think that natural resources, Canadian natural resources are a blessing.
00:08:23.580And I will not let oil and gas be cancelled, be it an aggressive housing plan required to make housing more affordable,
00:13:59.680This proved, in essence, on February 18th and 19th, that despite the efforts of the government to demonize and mischaracterize these protesters,
00:14:11.480something that they were not, this was a truly peaceful movement.
00:14:14.840And yet, Roman, how do we deal with the fact that potentially 50% of Canadians or more, depending on what news outlet they frequent,
00:14:22.560depending on who they talk to, where they get their information, are under the impression that what we mostly saw was a violent brigade of white supremacists
00:14:32.580who received foreign funding to go and overthrow the government.
00:14:35.200That is, we've at least heard those disparate parts from various liberal cabinet ministers,
00:14:39.220and perhaps as the inquiry process into the Emergencies Act goes underway, we'll see that regurgitated by them again.
00:14:46.920There is just complete alternate realities going on about what happened there.
00:14:51.100And I fear for our nation and how we deal with these major issues that we debate,
00:14:56.640that people can be living in alternate realities when it comes to things such as this.
00:20:43.500But Zelensky has asked for help to try and end the conflict, in addition to him asking for a no-fly zone.
00:20:50.180I think that a fly zone should not be considered, as it will lead to an escalation that could potentially result in something catastrophic.
00:20:59.580What we need to appreciate, in my view, is that Putin is in a very difficult political position.
00:21:06.000The war is not popular at home, in Russia, and he is under pressure from multiple sources to try and end the conflict.
00:21:19.220I think this is an opportunity for Canada to show leadership and say, it's time to end this,
00:21:27.040remove Russian troops from Ukraine, come up with some security guarantees.
00:21:32.160But the carnage, the catastrophic loss of life and infrastructure needs to end immediately, starting with a good faith ceasefire.
00:21:41.160I imagine Vladimir Putin is going to want some sort of face-saving agreement,
00:21:44.580and it's always believed that he sees carving out more parts of eastern Ukraine as a much more viable proposition towards,
00:21:52.340I guess, the territory he wants to take.
00:21:54.100Should NATO nations be willing to tolerate something like that?
00:21:57.480There's been a number of prominent security analysts who do suggest that this will conclude with some eastern Ukrainian regions going over to Russia.
00:22:48.000I know we haven't seen that for a couple of years.
00:22:49.960And for the socks, I know there hasn't been much attention to the socks in a couple of years.
00:22:53.380But we're dealing with some very serious matters.
00:22:55.540I don't think we expected the war in Ukraine to be the matter we were dealing with.
00:22:59.420All eyes were on China to some degree,
00:23:01.320but still a lot of concerns with the degree to which Canada-China relations are problematic right now.
00:23:08.360What would your foreign affairs priorities be?
00:23:10.600I don't think that you can run a credible foreign affairs effort when your partners,
00:23:19.580when the world around you is looking at Canada and believes that Canada's democracy is in doubt.
00:23:26.300We have seen quite a reception for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in the European Parliament a couple of weeks ago.
00:23:33.280I don't believe that Canada can restore its credibility around the world without fully restoring its democracy.
00:23:41.820I'd also say that our foreign policy needs to be grounded in our economic and plans for natural resources.
00:23:49.040I think that Canada's natural resources are a blessing, and it makes sense to develop them not just for strategic interests and environmental interests,
00:24:00.840because Canadians will derive energy cleaner and safer than any other nation in the world,
00:24:08.120I don't see why Canada should be purchasing any energy from abroad, especially from rogue regimes like Venezuela,
00:24:16.380instead of deriving these resources in Canada and projecting moral authority around the world,
00:24:25.140instead of supporting some of these rogue regimes.
00:24:27.580Hold on a second. Canada's democracy is in doubt.
00:24:31.980I've never really been accused of being a cheerleader for Justin Trudeau,
00:24:34.500but those are very strong words you used there.
00:24:37.040How is our democracy in doubt right now?
00:24:40.340Right now, the federal government is passing legislation that will potentially censor our speech on the internet.
00:24:46.420The government is moving with a licensing regime for journalists,
00:24:49.860deciding who qualifies as a journalist and who doesn't.
00:24:52.860Three to four million Canadians are excluded from aviation and rail.
00:25:02.340We're seeing 21st century segregation and discrimination against Canadians.
00:25:08.220This is unprecedented in recent history and not something that Canadians should regard lightly.
00:25:17.140We watched the government effectively invoke the War Measures Act in response to largely peaceful protesters in the capital.
00:25:26.760I think that we have some soul-searching to do and say that this is not the type of democracy that Canadians should...
00:25:36.980This is not something that Canadians should view and accept.
00:25:42.120When it comes to censoring the internet, this is something that we hear politicians say in democracies, major democracies all across the world right now.
00:25:52.220And I imagine whatever happens moving forward here in Canada, a next liberal government, an NDP government, potentially conservative government, will continue to talk about those themes as well.
00:26:02.620The digitization of our lives and the ensuing sense of inevitability that that will be regulated, be managed by government.
00:26:11.820There's digital ID programs going on at provincial and federal levels.
00:26:15.300I understand Saskatchewan has just abandoned their digital ID, but other districts going full ahead with it.
00:26:20.480How can we live in the digital age while also not succumbing to these temptations to control people's lives digitally?
00:26:28.520Well, just because humanity is moving forward with progress and technology doesn't mean that we should compromise basic principles, such as freedom of speech, or most notably, the right to privacy.
00:26:41.520I talk about the fact that a couple of months ago, I had to download Adobe Acrobat.
00:26:46.560And again, Adobe said to me that I cannot view my PDFs until I allow Adobe access to all of the files on my cell phone, even those that are not PDF files.
00:27:01.740And that really is symbolic of something that I think has been happening in the last couple of years.
00:27:09.780Many know that I come from the blue side of the Conservative Party on fiscal issues.
00:27:13.800I'm in favor and love all three enterprise, small business, medium business, and large business.
00:27:18.480But I don't believe that that means that we should be ceding our privacy and speech to what effectively amounts to technological monopolies.
00:27:28.560I think even though I'm in favor of a small role for Ottawa and the federal government, this is a competition law, an antitrust matter that a government should look at.
00:27:39.380You can allow for technological investment, but it doesn't mean that we should compromise privacy.
00:27:45.160I will be looking to restore the privacy of Canadians.
00:27:47.280You mentioned natural resources a couple of times.
00:27:54.460Bank of Canada is increasing rates right now.
00:27:57.060Lots of anxieties about what this means for regular individuals, their abilities to afford a home, to put food on the table as we see the price of various products of meat go much higher than people are used to seeing year over year.
00:28:09.680What's going on here on the economic front?
00:28:11.760What role does the federal government have to play?
00:28:41.840What we did get instead is a very high inflation rate that's not catching up with the market due to low productivity.
00:28:50.320Another thing we've experienced is a disequilibrium in price because we effectively stopped the global supply chain with lockdowns on and off.
00:29:04.560And then we restarted the economy, causing a significant demand.
00:29:09.560And so we have a disequilibrium between supply and demand that causes price inflation.
00:29:17.040The best thing we can do is provide the market with certainty.
00:29:20.740In addition to stopping the printing, we should provide the market with certainty that we are done locking down the economy.
00:29:28.600And that will immediately give people a lot of optimism, security, and ability and intent to invest and produce.
00:29:38.380What would you say to people who have broader anxieties about the long term now?
00:29:43.680It used to be a common phrase that people would say, I believe my kids are going to go on and have a better standard of living than I did.
00:29:50.140Now, a lot of people, they don't say that refrain anymore.
00:31:19.880We need to focus on building transportation to new and affordable communities.
00:31:22.500And Anthony, I think that all of this really starts with a sense that our democratic institutions are not going to be eroded and that government is not going to get in the way of Canadians pursuing their dreams.
00:31:38.000When the federal government is proposing universal basic income, it is discouraging dreams.
00:31:52.960What about dental care, which Justin Trudeau and Jagmeet Singh in the don't call it a coalition coalition are putting forward?
00:31:58.620Is that something that all Canadians should have access to?
00:32:00.800Well, I'm concerned that in order to affect universal dental care, you're going to have to have all sorts of regulatory pressures on dentists.
00:32:09.640I've been asking what sort of tariffs, what sort of prices will the federal government expect a dentist to accept?
00:32:18.560What kind of regulatory burdens or paperwork?
00:32:21.680And I'm concerned that if there's not enough supply to meet dental needs of Canadians by virtue of the universal dental plan, then dentists may potentially be inconvenienced or do something that they might not want to do.
00:32:37.880And that would mean that a lot of dentists might retire or simply leave to practice dentistry somewhere else.
00:32:44.180And that is the concern with universal plans.
00:33:05.620Is that something that you said you want opportunity for young people?
00:33:08.600Is this something that empowers young families, particularly women, to have that opportunity?
00:33:13.280Or are there some challenges in the implementation of this?
00:33:16.600There will certainly be some challenges in the implementation of this.
00:33:19.420Because I do know and I appreciate that the cost of daycare is unaffordable.
00:33:25.080What we need to do, I think, is we need to focus on affordability generally.
00:33:29.060And, of course, between the hyper rate of inflation, federal spending, and the uncertainty that's been created in the last couple of years, life in Canada is becoming unaffordable.
00:33:39.420But I think we've been through challenges as a country before, and I think we'll reemerge out of them again.
00:33:46.400We need to go back to first principles.
00:33:48.240And that is respecting Canada's democracy, respecting our ability to pursue livelihood, free of encumbrance by government, of course, subject to the rule of law.
00:33:59.100Those are very trade propositions that I think are eroding in our country and therefore cause a lot of folks to concern that the future of their children will not be as bright.
00:34:11.260And that is a proposition that I find unacceptable.
00:34:14.540Roman Baber, before we go, there's a lot of candidates in this field right now for conservative leadership and probably a feeling that whoever wins this race will go on to be the next prime minister.
00:34:24.220But it's unclear, both because there is this coalition government going on right now with Trudeau and Jagmeet Singh, and also because, well, Andrew sure didn't win.
00:34:32.020And we were told, well, it's because he was too SOCON, and get a guy who doesn't have the hints of SOCON, it'll be fine.
00:34:36.960Got an error, no tool, no hints of the SOCON, still, he didn't pull it off, he didn't win, got to push him out.
00:34:42.540And of course, he was, and now we have this race.
00:34:45.800What is needed from the Conservative Party and the next leader to win the next election?
00:34:52.000First, you've got to unify the Conservative Party, which means that you have to accept differing views within our party, not have litmus tests for opinion.
00:35:03.340You also have to have authenticity and courage to stand up for what you believe and what Canadians are looking for.
00:35:11.240Specifically, I'm of the view that no candidate should be running in one direction during leadership and then back to the centre during the general election.
00:35:20.160I think that voters see that as something not to be desired in leaders, and so you must remain authentic and true to yourself.
00:35:30.140That is a prerequisite for a Conservative leader in a party that is proud to stand on principle.
00:35:37.240And that also means that we cannot be bullied by the politically correct mob to take positions that may not be in line with what Canadians hope that we will say and do.
00:35:52.380I'm of the view that we should have stood up against lockdowns, that we should have stood up for a minority of Canadians that are discriminated against by virtue of passports and mandates.
00:36:04.120We should encourage diversity of opinion within our party, we should stand on principle, and we should not be afraid to articulate what we believe and say what we believe is right.
00:36:16.500Roman Baber, thanks for joining us today. All the best to you.