Full Comment - Carney helps Chinese interference make a comeback

00:00:00.000 After the kidnapping of the two Michaels and years of discussion about foreign interference,

00:00:07.120 I would have thought that Canadian elected officials were, well, kind of put off on the

00:00:12.080 idea of cozying up to China. Beijing is not the answer to our troubles with Washington,

00:00:17.940 but the Carney government is at least paying lip service to that.

00:00:21.340 Hello and welcome to the Full Comment Podcast. My name's Brian Lilly, your host,

00:00:25.160 and this week we're going to take another look at China, especially through the eyes

00:00:29.260 of Charles Burton. He's a former Canadian diplomat who served in Beijing twice during the 1990s,

00:00:35.420 the beginning of the decade and the end. He's an academic who's long written about this issue,

00:00:40.180 and he has a new book out called The Beaver and the Dragon, How China Outmaneuvered Canada's

00:00:45.360 Diplomacy, Security, and Sovereignty. Charles, thanks for the time.

00:00:49.280 It's good to speak with you, Brian.

00:00:51.020 Yeah, it's been a while, but I'm not sure that the issues of China that you and I have talked

00:00:56.360 about in the past have really changed all that much. We appear to have slipped back into our

00:01:03.320 naive sense that, well, we're Canada, we can deal with Beijing, everything's going to be fine. 0.54

00:01:11.800 What would you say to what you've seen from the Carney government over the last little while

00:01:16.800 in terms of saying we can pivot towards China while we're having trouble with Washington?

00:01:22.040 Well, I mean, certainly I think that the Carney government wants to give the impression that

00:01:27.540 they're working hard to diversify our trade away from the United States to salvage prosperity and

00:01:35.260 through international relations and save factories and save jobs and so on. It's not going to happen

00:01:41.240 with China. And the cost that the Chinese are extracting is for a promise to provide us more 0.77

00:01:49.520 access to the Chinese market of a rather diffuse nature. Our government is basically following

00:01:56.000 everything that China wants in its geostrategic reach into Canada. I mean, I was quite shocked when I

00:02:03.360 heard the comments of the Canadian Deputy Foreign Minister, David Morrison, at a reception to mark the

00:02:11.240 Chinese National Day. It happened, Chinese National Day is October the 1st. This happened September 26th.

00:02:18.160 And the Chinese ambassador made a speech where he essentially said, you know, Canada is going to

00:02:24.480 correct its ways and that Canada will adopt a pragmatic and constructive approach to China,

00:02:31.600 which is what they want, and that we should set aside differences and seek common ground.

00:02:37.680 Well, then the Deputy Foreign Minister quoted the Chinese language of pragmatic and constructive

00:02:44.960 and said how much the Prime Minister would agree to the ambassador's warm words. Well, when the Chinese 1.00

00:02:51.920 say pragmatic and constructive and set aside differences and focus on commonalities, what they mean

00:03:01.840 is that we will cease to criticize Chinese regime behavior in any way. And that would include

00:03:09.280 Chinese influence operations, Chinese stealing of dual use military technologies, restricting Chinese

00:03:18.960 access to the North and so on. Just interrupt a second, Charles. What they really mean is not,

00:03:24.320 don't criticize us on human rights, which they never want, and which Canadian governments really just

00:03:29.840 have always paid lip service to. They're saying, don't complain that we're stealing from you

00:03:34.800 on your industrial base, that we're spying on you, that we're trying to influence your election.

00:03:39.200 Don't talk about the things that we're doing in your country that are upsetting you.

00:03:44.160 Right. And, and, you know, I think it's basically giving them a buy that says, we will never expel any of

00:03:51.680 your diplomats who are involved in influence operations, bribery, uh, coordinating espionage.

00:03:59.040 I mean, we only expel the, the one guy, Jiao Wei, when the, the, the Globe and Mail revealed that this

00:04:05.840 man had been attempting to prepare to harass the family of the conservative foreign affairs critic,

00:04:11.840 Michael Chong. But, you know, CSIS knows that there are a lot of these people in our country. There has

00:04:17.680 been evidence given in parliament that the enormous Chinese diplomatic cohort in Canada is 70%

00:04:24.080 people who are not involved in legitimate diplomatic function. Why do we tolerate that?

00:04:30.080 And then we have the prime minister responding to Xi Jinping when they met briefly in Korea,

00:04:35.200 using the same language. Xi Jinping said pragmatic and constructive, and our PM repeated it twice,

00:04:42.240 and said even more disturbingly, that we would look at a dialogue to help build a more sustainable

00:04:48.400 and inclusive international system. And that's again, Chinese code words for their plan to become 0.75

00:04:54.400 the dominant power on the planet, what they call the community of the common destiny of mankind.

00:05:00.160 And our prime minister is using language which suggests that Canada will support this. It, it just

00:05:07.360 completely blows my mind about how captured our people seem to have been. They don't seem to have

00:05:13.680 much corporate memory about how badly things can go with China and how the Chinese infiltration of our

00:05:20.080 society, the co-opting of our elites and so on is a six, is a successive process. So, you know.

00:05:25.840 Should we be shocked at David Morrison though, just to go back to the deputy minister who you started this

00:05:30.960 story with? He figured prominently in the foreign interference inquiry, headed up by Justice Hoag.

00:05:38.400 He was at one point, the national security advisor who apparently missed all this

00:05:44.960 or missed it or look the other way.

00:05:47.280 David Morrison Well, I think it is a question of,

00:05:50.480 you know, we know from the Aug inquiry and from the leaks to the Globe and Mail and to Global News and

00:05:56.080 Sam Cooper that our security agencies have been expressing a lot of concern about activities of

00:06:03.920 Chinese Communist Party, United Front Work Department and Ministry of State Security operations. And,

00:06:10.400 you know, Minister Blair lost the, the warrant to have a, to have a, um, um, uh, surveillance of a,

00:06:19.760 of a prominent, uh, Ontario cabinet minister, former Ontario cabinet minister. Um, uh,

00:06:25.600 other ones, uh, the prime minister said, well, we received it from CSIS, but, uh, we don't really

00:06:30.560 think that it's true. And so we didn't act on it or the case where, um, where, um, that the, the

00:06:38.480 CSIS was asked to revise a report. I mean, if the prime minister feels that all these warnings from

00:06:43.840 CSIS are, are not valid, then why doesn't he fire the head of CSIS and get in people that will give him

00:06:49.840 information that he does, he can rely on. So it, it, it, it is pretty bad actually, and, and getting

00:06:56.080 worse. And it seems that under the Carney government, we're going back to a complete blindness on

00:07:01.920 anything that China's doing that isn't an, that doesn't impact on, um, on our ability or our hope

00:07:08.560 to gain more share of the Chinese market and remove the tariffs on canola seeds and allow Chinese

00:07:15.680 investment in Canada and all of these things that, uh, would build our prosperity that the Chinese 0.87

00:07:21.360 constantly promise us that they historically have never fulfilled.

00:07:27.760 There's an old saying that, uh, only Nixon could go to China. And of course,

00:07:31.760 liberals have long loved to say to me, yes, but Trudeau went first, uh, meaning pure Trudeau.

00:07:37.280 Uh, would you say that Canada's, uh, bumpy ride, bumpy journey, naive interactions with China 0.98

00:07:47.600 go back to Pierre Trudeau's time in office? I mean, he clearly was a, an admirer of the country. He had

00:07:54.720 toured it when Westerners could not. Uh, is that what started the, the sense that, you know, Canada could

00:08:05.200 be a player with China, that Canada and China would have a different relationship. The, that,

00:08:10.720 the naive sentiment that is at the basis of this relationship.

00:08:15.280 I, I think that that, that is true. I mean, certainly, um, at the end of his, just at the

00:08:20.880 end of his prime ministership, Mr. Trudeau hosted the, the general secretary of the Chinese Communist

00:08:26.160 Party, Zhao Ziyang, to give a joint, um, address to parliament. And in that, Mr. Trudeau waxed nostalgic

00:08:34.240 about how he talked with Premier Zhou Enlai on his 1970s trip to China about global affairs until

00:08:41.760 late in the night. So Mr. Trudeau admired Chairman Mao and, uh, and Zhou Enlai, uh, even though this was

00:08:49.920 the cultural revolution when, um, you know, any notion that China was anyway compliant with anything

00:08:56.240 like his Canadian charter of rights and freedoms was simply not true. And his earlier trip with Senator

00:09:02.240 Jacques Hubert was in the middle of the great leap forward famine, which was caused by, by, uh,

00:09:08.400 Chairman Mao's communization of the countryside and insistence that, um, that, that farmers

00:09:16.720 melt steel by melting down, melting down iron implements. But, you know, it was a tragic event

00:09:22.960 where up to 40 million people died out of a population of 700 million at the time because of bad

00:09:29.440 government policy. And Mr. Trudeau and Senator Hebert in their book, Two Innocents in China,

00:09:35.760 which was re-released in English after Mr. Trudeau became prime minister in 68, seems to not to have

00:09:42.080 noticed that there was an ongoing massive famine government caused going on in the country. So,

00:09:48.880 you know, it, it, it, it, it certainly, I don't think we can say that Mr. Trudeau did this personally,

00:09:54.400 but there were a lot of people at the time who thought that the Chinese communist revolution was

00:10:00.800 a superior way, uh, and a model for third world countries that wouldn't be beholden to the Soviet

00:10:08.480 Union and to the Americans. So in a way, I think Trudeau was trying to, to, uh, stick it to, to Nixon.

00:10:15.680 And then Nixon shortly thereafter sent Kissinger to establish relations with China based on the idea that

00:10:22.800 China and America get together to counter Russia. So yes, I mean, it is a Trudeau thing and certainly,

00:10:29.760 um, Justin Trudeau was well aware of this tradition and I think felt that he could, um, um, carry on

00:10:38.160 his father's legacy with China. It, it, it's been a disaster for Canada. We're probably the most 1.00

00:10:44.240 infiltrated of the Western countries by the Chinese regime simply because we don't take any action

00:10:50.800 against espionage influence operations. We don't, we don't address China's support for third world

00:10:57.600 dictatorships through transfer of surveillance technologies. And of course we don't build our,

00:11:03.360 our defense against Chinese potential Chinese incursions, particularly in the Arctic where

00:11:08.400 China defines itself as a near Arctic state. Although if you look at the map of the world,

00:11:13.040 they're, um, they're about as near as Yemen. Yeah. I want to get to that in a bit because of the 0.66

00:11:18.800 interesting story that I've related before about comments from the Chinese regime around the time

00:11:25.680 that Hu Jintao visited Canada in 2010. Well, that's when Stephen Harper was prime minister and Stephen

00:11:32.640 Harper tried to take a different view. He tried to take at the beginning a tougher approach with China,

00:11:37.680 but the business community in this country revolted at that. He tried to say, look, China is a human

00:11:45.600 rights abuser. China is involved in industrial and, um, industrial espionage among others, uh, that this

00:11:53.040 is a problem and we have to face it. Uh, and they need to give back Canadians that they're holding, uh, 0.91

00:11:59.360 such as Mr. Salil, the business community freaked out and, uh, browbeat him effectively into changing

00:12:07.840 his tune. You know, I know you've write extensively in the book about Mr. Harper. Would you agree with

00:12:14.080 that sentiment that he changed over time from one view to another, and then finally, uh, probably a third?

00:12:22.320 Well, I think, I mean, always within Canadian cabinets, you have a split between those who are

00:12:28.080 beholden to business elements that, that have extensive lucrative dealings with Chinese communist

00:12:34.240 business networks and those who are more concerned about security and in fact, human rights issues. So,

00:12:41.200 you know, within the Harper cabinet, you had Jason Kenney, who I think was consistently standing on the,

00:12:47.360 on the right side in terms of concern about the malign influence of the, of the Chinese regime. Mr.

00:12:54.720 Kenny appeared at my book launch in Ottawa last week and gave a very nice speech. I, I'm grateful to

00:13:00.240 him for having tried his best to, to, to keep things on the rails. He failed. I mean, maybe it was like

00:13:06.560 a split between the Moroni element in the conservative party and, uh, and the reform element where the

00:13:12.960 Moroni people are involved with, with Quebec businesses, you know, at the time Bombardier, uh,

00:13:20.960 SAC Lavalin and so on had quite a lot of investment in China and naturally had a lot of influence

00:13:27.600 in the prime minister's office over decisions relating to trade because they built a lot of

00:13:33.520 prosperity in Canada. You, you actually titled one of your, your chapters, um, uh, why did Harper go to

00:13:41.040 China? The ethnic vote and money, kind of a paraphrase of Jack, uh, Jacques Pariseau. But there, 0.78

00:13:47.280 there's a huge, huge amount of influence, especially in the Montreal business community,

00:13:52.800 more so than I would say here in Toronto, although it's significant here, but there's a huge influence

00:13:57.760 in the Montreal business community with China. Yeah. I think that that's historically been the 0.92

00:14:02.720 case. You know, Bombardier has done an awful lot of business in that country. And now under Carney,

00:14:08.880 we seem to be returning to that kind of mentality. You know, a couple of years ago, we put together the

00:14:15.680 Indo-Pacific policy and there was an extraordinary section where really quite good where they defined

00:14:21.840 China as a disruptive power in global affairs. I, I didn't like disruptive power. I want a strategic 0.81

00:14:28.800 competitor. Uh, but when Hu Jintao was in Canada back in, in the mid, uh, 2000, 2005, you know, we came

00:14:37.840 up with this strategic partnership agreement and now under, under Carney and foreign minister and and we've,

00:14:46.560 we've gone back to strategic partnership. I mean, what sort of insanity is this? How can we possibly be a

00:14:53.360 partner with a country that is so actively hostile to pretty much everything that Canada believes in

00:14:59.760 economically and in terms of, of the, the, the world community? So we, we seem to forget that they

00:15:06.720 kidnapped two of our people as hostage diplomacy, that they destroyed one of the bedrocks of every 0.85

00:15:13.200 Canadian pension plan in Nortel and that they continue to interfere in our elections. We, we seem to have

00:15:20.560 just said, oh yeah, well that was before, but it's different now. Yeah. I think that that, that is the case.

00:15:26.400 And certainly Michael Kovarik has been writing really very powerful pieces on this exact thing about

00:15:33.120 how naive and well, and it's sort of a combination of naivete where the polls are showing that more and

00:15:39.840 more Canadians are feeling more favorable to closer engagement with China and, and greed, which is

00:15:47.840 really about, you know, the businesses get some short-term benefits from China and then, uh, our, our

00:15:54.240 security and sovereignty continues to fall further and further into a, a Chinese, um, Chinese trap. So 0.98

00:16:01.680 it, I'm, I'm, I'm despairing about how it's going to be over the next few years, especially if Mr.

00:16:07.200 Carney gets a majority in the spring and goes hollus ballus for, um, allowing China to, to get a buy on

00:16:15.120 all of the non-trade aspects of the, of the relationship. You know, will we, um, will we, um,

00:16:22.400 allow China to engage in mining operations? There, will we revive the free trade agreement

00:16:28.080 that Mr. Trudeau bungled back in 2017? And the Asia Pacific Foundation even suggests that we might,

00:16:34.720 um, enter the Chinese Belt and Road Initiative, which, uh, is really involved in restructuring the

00:16:41.520 global economy towards China at the center. Do you think we could go that far as joining

00:16:47.360 Belt and Road? Well, not if I have anything to say about it or you, but you know. I mean,

00:16:53.200 we were part of the Asian infrastructure bank. Well, we still are. I mean, you know, we suspended,

00:16:58.960 we didn't leave it. And you know, as you'll read in the book, I think I certainly oppose that because

00:17:05.760 that really was, uh, uh, an agency designed us to fund the Belt and Road. In other words,

00:17:11.840 and, and as we found out subsequently, we put a lot of money, I think, pushing up to a billion dollars

00:17:18.320 in the Asian infrastructure investment bank or commitment to that and never got anything back

00:17:22.160 for it. They never bought any Canadian stuff. Help people understand, um, who maybe aren't obsessed

00:17:29.040 the way you and I are. Uh, but we'll want to, you know, hear what you're saying and then, you know,

00:17:35.840 go and read your book. Uh, so the Asian infrastructure bank, as you say, was used to fund

00:17:42.960 Belt and Road. So the Asian infrastructure bank controlled by Beijing, other countries were putting

00:17:48.320 money into it. And then what was that money used for? What explain a little bit what Belt and Road

00:17:53.360 is all about? Now, the Belt and Road Initiative is a project, um, designed to build infrastructure

00:18:02.480 and port facilities throughout the world to really facilitate the transfer of natural resources

00:18:09.600 into China. So you've got the belts and the roads, the, the belts are the sea,

00:18:15.840 are the sea, uh, transportation routes facilitated by China. And the roads are, are, um,

00:18:20.880 are land transportation going all the way, uh, to Europe. So the China's invested a lot in third

00:18:27.280 world countries in port facilities and upgrading, uh, facilities to get, uh, minerals to tidewater,

00:18:34.080 which then go to China. It's not, not due to benevolence. Well, they say it's benevolent

00:18:40.160 and they're inclined to, you know, build new palaces for dictators and sports stadiums and that kind

00:18:46.400 of thing, but it really is about getting stuff out to China. And I, and I've noticed, uh, in some of

00:18:51.920 my work that the countries that China provides the most loan forgiveness to because the loans are given

00:19:00.000 in ways where the money is not monitored as closely as the world bank or, or the Japanese Asian development

00:19:05.520 bank. And a lot of it seems to end up in Swiss bank accounts, leaving the nations holding the bag

00:19:11.120 for some poor infrastructure projects that don't produce the anticipated returns. But what you're

00:19:17.600 looking at is, is countries that have desirable port facilities seem to get more Chinese investment.

00:19:24.240 And you can't help, but think that that's really with a view in future to China, setting up blue water

00:19:29.920 naval facilities and submarines in these critical parts of the world as part of its overall, the community

00:19:36.960 of the common destiny of mankind program, which, you know, debases international institutions like

00:19:42.880 the UN and WTO in favor of ones based on, on China as the dominant superpower. And the other,

00:19:50.160 this is what the British did over years. It's what the Americans did. 0.87

00:19:55.600 Well, I think that's what the Africans are thinking. You know, um, maybe the Chinese will be better, 1.00

00:20:00.640 but in fact, the Chinese have a much more, um, long-term systematic plan for global domination,

00:20:07.920 which you can read about pretty clearly if you read Chinese in particular, that that's what the regime

00:20:14.000 is trying to sell to its people. I don't think they'll succeed because the Chinese economy is not going 1.00

00:20:19.120 well. And the Xi regime is, is not, um, being successful in terms of serving the people's needs and

00:20:26.560 of people in China feel uncertain about the future. And so they're not spending and you're, they're

00:20:32.240 suffering from deflation and so on. But with the Belt and Road by, by providing these generous loans,

00:20:39.040 China, in some cases seems to anticipate the loans will fail. And then in compensation demands like

00:20:46.240 a 99 year lease on a port. They've done that in a couple of places. So they're able to use a kind of loan,

00:20:52.320 um, leverage to gain Chinese advantage in geo strategic, militarily geo strategic areas. I mean,

00:21:01.040 in the Chinese regime, you cannot separate Chinese business from the Chinese communist party, the

00:21:06.000 military and, um, and the state. They're all, they're all working in very sophisticated, uh, coordination

00:21:13.520 to achieve overall Chinese goals. And we just can't match it. You know, sometimes I think I should go 0.97

00:21:20.240 over to the dark side and work for the Chinese cause they seem to be getting further in things, 1.00

00:21:25.680 but unfortunately my Canadian values hold me back. I just can't, I just can't stomach the idea.

00:21:31.360 Certainly they'd like me to, they have offered me, uh, opportunities to make a lot of money, uh,

00:21:37.200 which I have so far turned down. Uh, we have to take a quick break. When we come back though,

00:21:43.040 I do want to ask you about the military and their vision of themselves as an Arctic nation or near

00:21:51.600 Arctic nation. But, uh, before that, I'll get quick comments from you on, on canola tariffs and EVs

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00:23:29.920 This is Tristan Hopper, the host of Canada Did What?, where we unpack the biggest, weirdest,

00:23:34.720 and wildest political moments in Canadian history you thought you knew and tell you what really

00:23:39.760 happened. Stick around at the end of the episode to hear a sample of one of our favorite episodes.

00:23:45.360 If you don't want to stick around, make sure you subscribe to Canada Did What? everywhere you get

00:23:50.620 podcasts. So Charles, The Beaver and the Dragon is really a collection of essays. It's not, you know,

00:23:56.300 one big tomb that goes through, but you've collected all these essays and you talk about different things.

00:24:01.660 And at one point you're writing that trade with China is never free. Interesting. Similar to the title of a book

00:24:08.840 I have behind me from Robert Lighthizer, No Trade is Free. So that applies around the world. But, you know,

00:24:16.700 right now China has slapped canola tariffs on Canadian products, as they did in 2013-14 and 2017 and 2020.

00:24:26.780 They had a ban for two years. They really like hitting on canola. Also pork and seafood, also facing tariffs.

00:24:35.360 And now they're saying, but, but, but, if you just get rid of your tariffs on our electric vehicles that

00:24:41.160 we're dumping into your market, uh, at half the price it costs to make them and you allow us to spy on

00:24:47.360 you using these cars, we will lift the canola tariffs. Is that a good deal? Uh, well, I oppose it.

00:24:53.660 I mean, you know, it used to be that when they, when they complained about, um, when they tried to use

00:25:00.560 economic leverage by restricting access of our commodities to the market, they'd come up with

00:25:06.740 some fake reason. I mean, when they, when they, uh, imposed the, uh, the, uh, the ban on Canadian

00:25:13.300 canola in response to Canada's, um, um, detention of the Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou in response to a U.S.

00:25:22.720 extradition request, they said, oh, your canola has, you know, musks and, and, uh, stuff in the, in the,

00:25:30.460 in the, in the, in the non-seed portion. I mean, it was complete and utter nonsense. I mean, none of

00:25:34.980 our other company, uh, other customers for canola had any complaints about, uh, contamination. This

00:25:41.480 time they don't bother with that. And they've got to the point where they're strong enough that they

00:25:45.020 can just arbitrarily decide to violate the norms of international trade and they will. But, you

00:25:52.700 know, I, I spoke at the parliamentary committee that was considering the a hundred percent tariff

00:25:57.400 on EVs and, you know, there were a lot of unions and auto companies. Everybody there was supporting

00:26:02.420 the tariff idea. My, my support for the tariff idea was because of what you said, which is they're

00:26:07.860 basically spy machines on wheels. They're worse than Huawei 5G in terms of their threat to us.

00:26:13.540 And because they, they are subject to control from China. So, uh, software update could be put in that

00:26:20.360 would allow the Chinese to, you know, cripple the EVs, uh, if there was a conflict over Taiwan or South 0.91

00:26:27.320 China Sea or whatever. And, and there's also the American notion, which is that if Canadians bought

00:26:34.420 Chinese EVs, uh, the Americans would not let Canadians drive them into the United States. So,

00:26:39.500 you know, if you want to get to your condo in Florida, don't take your EV, you'll have to fly

00:26:44.260 or get a gas car. So, I mean, clearly the EVs are so subsidized by the Chinese state that those unions

00:26:52.760 and auto manufacturers are right, um, that they would devastate, uh, our own auto market. But the

00:26:58.780 reason, you know, one of the complaints that I do hear from farmers and that includes family members

00:27:04.360 who are growing canola is that, well, you know, there really isn't an EV industry in Canada, but

00:27:11.200 China's not interested in eliminating the EV industry, uh, industry in Canada. They want to

00:27:18.120 eliminate the auto industry in Canada is my view. Am I taking it too far?

00:27:24.500 Well, I mean, China and the U S both would like to see, uh, no manufacturer of autos in Southern

00:27:29.960 Ontario, which, uh, is a pretty big hit for Canadian economy. I mean, Mr. Trump wants to

00:27:35.800 relocate the factories to, uh, United States and China would like to, as you say, completely dominate 0.94

00:27:41.640 our auto sector, which would again, give them enormous leverage over, uh, Canada in non-trade areas.

00:27:48.600 But, uh, you know, the reason that the EVs are so cheap is the same reason that Huawei, um, 5G

00:27:54.440 technology was undercutting, um, Samsung and, and, um, Ericsson by 30% because the Chinese factor in

00:28:03.080 the benefit to their, to their geostrategic interests and espionage by subsidizing both Huawei and the EV

00:28:10.440 industry enormously. So, uh, you know, I, I can see what's happening here, but, um, you know, on the

00:28:18.120 one hand, you've got the canola farmers who 40,000 of them, uh, and, and associated, uh, numbers of

00:28:26.520 people that, that rely on canola farmers for, for consumption and their own businesses who are

00:28:31.560 devastated by this action. And of course, lots of Canadians who would love to have a cheap,

00:28:36.200 wonderful Chinese EV. Apparently the battery technology is better. And, you know, they're

00:28:41.800 selling for something ridiculously small, like $8,000 in Brazil for the cheapest ones. So,

00:28:47.960 you know, maybe not 8,000, but not very much compared to our auto costs. So, um, it's again,

00:28:54.280 uh, the Chinese able to use economic leverage to overcome our concerns over our security and

00:29:00.440 sovereignty. And I don't think we ought to give in, but my guess is we will.

00:29:04.760 My advice to those in the canola industry is that, look, they are a bad partner. And every time

00:29:11.320 there is any kind of disagreement with China, they're going to hit you. Um, they banned you

00:29:17.560 for two years, find other markets, be it in India, Mexico, South Korea, find other markets,

00:29:23.240 because these guys, you know, take the profit when you can, but they're unreliable and they'll,

00:29:28.600 they'll hit you again.

00:29:29.560 The global commodity, you know, it, it, there will be other markets elsewhere. And of course,

00:29:34.600 our canola farmers already, uh, cycle barley and wheat with canola. I mean, canola is a higher value

00:29:40.440 crop, but it's not like the, the, the, the fields have to lie fallow. We've just got to adjust. But

00:29:46.920 I do think that, you know, the government ought to be much more aware of the concerns of our Saskatchewan

00:29:52.680 and Alberta, um, canola farmers and the government is not. In other words, there's quite a different

00:29:57.880 attitude towards helping out the Southern Ontario auto industry among the Laurentian elite than, than

00:30:05.800 honest, hardworking farmers in the prairies who have been, as you say, suffering from this political

00:30:12.040 problems with their, with their crop, which seems to be even worse than, than, uh, climate drought and,

00:30:18.040 uh, and, uh, and floods. So, you know, government should be paying more attention to those concerns

00:30:24.840 than they're not. And naturally they're, there, there's a move for independence. If, if central Canada

00:30:32.200 just pretends that there isn't a problem here that they need to address. Total two-way trade with,

00:30:37.960 uh, China is under $120 billion a year. Most of that is China sending us stuff, um, tinkers,

00:30:49.080 manufactured products, a lot of plastics. We send raw materials. Um, is it even plausible that we can

00:31:00.360 pivot towards China, the way that Mark Carney has been hinting at, to replace American markets? 0.82

00:31:08.680 Well, I mean, it's ridiculous. I mean, China will not, will not start accepting a large amount of

00:31:14.040 Canadian imports when their own economy is doing so badly. And it's just there, I don't know what

00:31:19.320 feasibility study they've done on this, but you know, it's not happening. And I mean, there are things

00:31:24.360 that we should be doing. We should be trying to challenge the Chinese near monopoly on critical minerals.

00:31:29.880 You know, we, we should be not shipping the stuff to, to China for processing, but we ought to be

00:31:35.320 doing the investment in, in getting, uh, identifying where these, um, where these rare earths are

00:31:42.760 and processing them, you know, building the factories to process them in Canada. And certainly if we did

00:31:48.600 that, that would strengthen our hand considerably with the nations that are involved in this, in

00:31:54.360 manufacture of high tech goods in, in Eastern Asia and give us some basis to really get more access

00:31:59.880 to the markets there by, by making a commitment to, to help them diversify away from a frightening

00:32:07.080 dependence on China for these elements, which are so in increasingly important as, as our high tech

00:32:15.320 AI and so on moves from strength to strength. It would give us tremendous leverage with the

00:32:20.200 Americans as well. They would be over the moon.

00:32:21.640 Well, I mean, the Americans ought to realize that, you know, it's all very well that you've got many,

00:32:27.160 a lot more population, but when it comes down to natural resources and water, um, electricity,

00:32:32.520 and so on, you know, they, they, they need us, uh, probably a lot more than they appreciate.

00:32:37.160 I mean, Mr. Trump says we don't need Canada. Uh, on that point, he's wrong.

00:32:42.920 The, the view of the, the Carney government though, is that we can go get a, a win-win deal here.

00:32:50.520 And that's not something that you believe is feasible with China. I, you know, I, I wonder

00:32:56.360 whether it's feasible with Donald Trump at the moment, generally speaking, I would say with the

00:32:59.880 Americans, yes, but Trump is a tough negotiator who's got very, you know, uh, firm ideas on what

00:33:06.680 he wants, but the Chinese don't even think in those terms, do they? No, I, I mean, the idea that we can 1.00

00:33:13.480 come up with, you know, strategic partnership with two nations that pose an existential threat to

00:33:20.360 Canada's, um, way of life and democracy, which is the United States that would, wants us to be the

00:33:27.000 51st state and then move on to Greenland and China, which wants to turn Canada into a subordinate, um,

00:33:34.440 supplier of raw materials to feed China's global domination. You know, we really need to be

00:33:41.800 looking at countries that don't pose an existential threat to Canada and strengthening our relations,

00:33:47.880 uh, with, uh, Trans-Pacific Partnership and like-minded nations in, uh, in Europe and particularly,

00:33:54.840 um, northern nations with regard to trying to strengthen our ability to defend the Arctic

00:34:01.240 from Russia and Chinese claims that the, the parts of the Arctic that are under, that should

00:34:08.040 be under Canadian sovereign control, in fact, are international and can be exploited by Russia and

00:34:14.440 China. I'm, I'm waiting for Canada to agree to China to be involved in Arctic development and port

00:34:21.320 facilities and so on, which really would be game over in terms of our notion that Canada is the

00:34:28.040 true North strong and free. Do you, do you mean having China come in to somewhere like, uh,

00:34:33.880 Grays Bay port and say, we'll help you develop this. We'll invest in this.

00:34:39.880 Well, you know, it's like the, it was like the mine, the gold of money losing gold mine a few years

00:34:44.600 ago up there where it turns out it was spitting distance from a NORAD installation and had a,

00:34:50.440 an outlet into the Arctic sea. You know, China is so blatant about what, what they're going to do

00:34:56.200 in this regard because they have such, they feel so confident now that they can basically tell Canada

00:35:03.400 to shove it. I mean, the interaction between Xi Jinping and Carney was quite different from what we

00:35:09.240 saw when the Chinese were treating Pierre Trudeau so kindly and, and sending senior leaders to 0.95

00:35:15.320 accompany him on tours of the Yangtze river. Mr. Xi was basically looking at Mr. Carney as a, as a,

00:35:22.920 as a subordinate and, and, um, admonishing him as, as a school child that, that was behaving out of,

00:35:29.640 out of, uh, out of, out of turn. So it, it's a very, from the Chinese point of view, their relations

00:35:36.200 with Canada are very different from the way they were before. And Mr. Carney seems to be giving

00:35:41.160 into this by, you know, echoing their kind of language for the way the relationship should be

00:35:47.320 pragmatic, constructive, set aside differences and seek common ground. All this stuff is,

00:35:52.840 is Chinese language, not Canadian language. In terms of the Arctic, um, I mentioned earlier about

00:36:01.560 Hu Jintao when he was, um, the top leader on the Chinese side, Chinese president, uh, and he came

00:36:10.200 to visit Stephen Harper in 2010. Just before he arrived, one of my colleagues noted an interview

00:36:17.880 that a top Chinese general had given talking about how, well, China is a near Arctic nation and we are

00:36:26.440 20% of the world's population. Therefore we deserve 20% of the resources under the Arctic.

00:36:32.840 They have a very different view of what to do in the Arctic. One, I think they want to control parts

00:36:39.000 of it and they have more vessels up there than we do. Yes. But two, I think they would also drill

00:36:44.360 baby drill if they could, or mine, or, you know, any resource that's up there, they would exploit it.

00:36:51.080 Is that a major concern for us? And does it tie into the American concern that we're not serious

00:37:01.000 about Arctic sovereignty and looking after our, as Steve Bannon put it to me, our soft underbelly?

00:37:07.640 Well, I mean, absolutely. And you know, we, we have over past years allowed the Chinese to engage

00:37:14.520 in so-called scientific expeditions up in the Arctic. I think that the, the word is that China has been

00:37:21.000 doing more mapping of Arctic waters than Canada has. And we've been finding, um, espionage buoys

00:37:27.480 that have been dropped close to our shores, which the Chinese have, have set out in the course of 1.00

00:37:32.680 these activities. So, I mean, their interest in, in gaining, um, benefit from the Arctic is pretty

00:37:39.640 transparent. And I think the idea that they would, that they would offer to Canada, that they would

00:37:45.800 assist us in, um, Arctic development is also there, particularly if this appalling idea that Canada

00:37:53.240 joins the Belt and Road Initiative leads to China saying, oh yeah, well, we'll, we'll do investment

00:37:58.200 up there. You don't have the resources we do. We can, we can help you make the most of Arctic ports and,

00:38:03.880 uh, and, uh, resource, um, development in that part of the world. And they, and they also deal directly

00:38:11.480 with, um, the, uh, the Inuit and other, um, indigenous peoples up there, uh, often claiming

00:38:18.920 that, you know, you're really Chinese, but you have cultural, uh, similarities to us and that, uh,

00:38:26.280 we will provide you with the economic benefits that the Canadian government is not. Well, I mean,

00:38:31.240 that sort of stuff is, uh, you know, we shouldn't be allowing that to happen.

00:38:34.360 What should we be doing then to, to protect Canada's sovereignty in the Arctic? Cause China 1.00

00:38:40.280 clearly has plans and designs. So what should we do, whether it's at the political level or the

00:38:46.840 military level? Well, I think, I mean, the, you know, I mean the military level, we, we,

00:38:51.560 we need to be making massive investment in being able to defend our country. I mean, what country in

00:38:57.400 the world cannot defend its borders? That would be Canada. And I guess it's a matter of, of making

00:39:03.000 decisions that prioritize the defense of Canada from, from foreigners and particularly up in the

00:39:09.160 North, it's about Russia and China. But I think politically is we have to stop tolerating what

00:39:15.480 China's doing. And so if China has a diplomatic cohort where most of them are not involved in

00:39:24.120 their legitimate diplomatic function, we should be sending those people back. We shouldn't allow 1.00

00:39:29.800 the Chinese to have a lot more, um, agents in our country than, than we're allowed diplomats in

00:39:35.400 their country. Can you elaborate on that? I know it's something I've talked to you and others about

00:39:40.040 in the past, but, um, the, the, the sheer size of the Chinese diplomatic core in Canada far outstrips

00:39:51.160 our relations. Yeah. I mean it, um, I was in parliament, uh, last week and, um, conservative party

00:39:58.120 gave a statistic of 176 Chinese diplomats in Canada, and that's pushing up to the number that

00:40:04.600 the Americans have compared to 40 some for the Japanese, 30 some for the Indians. There's no 0.97

00:40:10.280 justification for having that many people here. And when we accept a diplomat, the, the country

00:40:16.600 that's sending a diplomat has to tell us what they'll be doing. And so, you know, our Chinese diplomats

00:40:22.680 so much less efficient than those of other nations that they need four times the number 1.00

00:40:26.920 than, than the country really justifies. And that doesn't include their, their immigration, um,

00:40:33.080 program, which it, which they've subcontracted to, to private sources. So when you want a Chinese 0.99

00:40:38.520 visa, you're not going to the embassy or consulate, you're going to a facility offsite.

00:40:42.360 And not to speak of this problem of the police stations and the diplomats are affiliated. The

00:40:51.000 diplomats in question are affiliated with the Chinese state ministry, state security,

00:40:55.960 or it's associated institution, which is the Chinese communist party's

00:40:59.960 united front work department. And so when you have a situation where you, you hear in the

00:41:04.920 all commission, for example, that Chinese people were induced to vote for candidates that China felt

00:41:10.920 would favor China's interests. And we're providing, um, red envelopes to donors of Chinese origin

00:41:19.160 to compensate for the part of their donation, which would not be able to be written off their tax.

00:41:24.760 This is done by proxies offsite in those so-called police stations, which are really, um, I guess,

00:41:31.000 non-official Chinese consular facilities. Like if, when you want to pick up your, your money for making

00:41:37.560 the donation to compensate for the section, the part of it that was not able to be tax deductible,

00:41:43.560 you're not going to knock on the door of the Chinese consul. It's going to be done through an 0.98

00:41:47.320 association friendly to China that has operations offsite. So we, you know, I don't understand why

00:41:55.560 we tolerate this. I assume that CSIS knows about what's going on, but maybe at the political center,

00:42:02.360 it's felt, well, you know, we don't want to cause trouble with the Chinese and interfere

00:42:07.240 with our trade relations. So we'll just let it go. It's, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's a very foolish

00:42:13.320 and short-sighted, um, approach, but then I think we have to have concern about Canadian policymakers

00:42:21.160 and politicians who are beholden to China, even in the notion that maybe if you're, if you don't do

00:42:28.360 anything that China wouldn't like while you're in a position of public trust, after you leave

00:42:33.320 politics, you know, in your mid fifties, you can make big money working for law firms or Chinese

00:42:38.440 firms on boards, uh, which reward you for having been a friend of China when you had a, um, a civil

00:42:45.320 service or, or political position. And let's remember the Ansikop report that suggested that I think there

00:42:51.400 were 11, uh, members of parliament that were seen as wittingly or unwittingly under the influence of

00:42:58.920 the foreign power and a larger number of staffers in the same situation. And we're aware of this kind

00:43:05.160 of thing going on in, in Britain and the United States and people being arrested and expelled,

00:43:10.840 but nobody seems to be called to task for this in Canada. And we never found out who those 13 members

00:43:17.800 of parliament were, and presumably they ran again for parliament and could well be serving in parliament

00:43:23.480 now. It's frustrating. And I remember several years ago talking to, uh, Michelle Juno Katsuya,

00:43:30.520 former CSIS agent about, um, operation Sidewinder and the Sidewinder report, which detailed the

00:43:38.440 infiltration of China back in the 1990s and going back into the 1980s and how it was done. And that was

00:43:45.320 leaked out and never really resulted in any change. And I thought, well, when we get a public inquiry

00:43:54.280 into Chinese election interference, surely this is going to change something. I don't think it's

00:44:00.280 changed a thing. I mean, certainly that report was the beginning and now we see how it's developed and

00:44:07.000 developed over those years since 98. And let's bear in mind, I mean, what has actually happened as a

00:44:13.320 result of the AUG inquiry? Anything different? Uh, don't see it. And then we had Bill C-70, which

00:44:19.720 called for a foreign influence transparency commissioner and a foreign influence transparency

00:44:24.600 registry that would require people who have a conflict of interest because they're receiving

00:44:29.320 benefits from a foreign state to declare that publicly. That legislation was passed through parliament

00:44:35.720 in June, 2024. And there's no sign of the commissioner or the registry and no sign that it'll be coming

00:44:42.200 up anytime soon. Uh, despite assurances from the government that, you know, would happen a year

00:44:48.200 after the, after legislation went through. And then they said it would happen in September. And then they

00:44:52.920 said it would happen before the end of the year. Um, now there seems they're talking about maybe sometime

00:44:59.080 next spring. Uh, the government has to have an ordering council appointment of a commissioner.

00:45:05.400 How hard is that? When we needed a fentanyl commissioner, they were able to do it lickety split.

00:45:10.600 But when it comes to somebody who might reveal that there are Canadians, respected Canadians who have

00:45:17.320 served in government in the past, who are receiving benefits from China, it seems that the government

00:45:24.360 is, uh, is, uh, not prepared to act with very much, uh, speed.

00:45:29.000 His book is The Beaver and the Dragon, How China Outmaneuvered Canada's Diplomacy, Security, and

00:45:34.440 Sovereignty. Do check it out. Collection of Essays, an easy read. Charles Burton. Thanks so much as always.

00:45:41.000 It's great to speak with you.

00:45:42.680 Full Comment is a post-media podcast. My name's Brian Lilly, your host. This episode was produced by

00:45:47.880 Andre Proulx. Theme music by Bryce Hall. Kevin Libman is the executive producer. Make sure that you

00:45:53.160 hit subscribe, leave us a review, tell your friends and neighbors about us. Thanks for listening.

00:45:57.400 Until next time, I'm Brian Lilly.

00:46:05.080 Here's that clip from Canada Did What? I promised you.

00:46:11.960 Castro would end up occupying a space in the Trudeau family similar to that of a beloved uncle.

00:46:17.320 They went diving. They smoked cigars together. They gathered sea urchins for beach cookouts.

00:46:24.360 Informal talks at an island hideaway intensified their respect for each other and their mutual

00:46:30.520 enjoyment of skin diving added to the rapport. In addition to a well-publicized 1976 summit meeting,

00:46:37.560 Trudeau took three separate vacations to visit Castro after his time in politics had ended.

00:46:42.680 I can make just one reference to Pierre Trudeau's sons to show the closeness of the relationship. The

00:46:54.200 nickname that the Trudeau's sons had for Fidel Castro was Papa Fidel. So that gives you an indication of

00:47:01.800 the closeness of the bond that existed between the communist dictator, you know, thorn in the side of

00:47:09.800 every American administration for the past 50 years and Pierre Trudeau.

00:47:14.680 When Trudeau's youngest son, Michel, died in an avalanche in 1998, Castro called the family in

00:47:21.000 tears to express his condolences. As an eight-year-old, Michel had referred to Fidel Castro as his best

00:47:27.800 friend. When Pierre died, Fidel declared three days of mourning in Cuba and flew to Montreal to act as an

00:47:34.280 honorary pallbearer. Every time Trudeau went down to Cuba, all the people in South Florida, the exiles 1.00

00:47:43.160 were thinking, why is this Western leader giving comfort to a murderous dictator who is oppressing

00:47:51.160 their people in Cuba and saying good things about Fidel Castro? And as I've mentioned, to have him in the

00:47:58.200 pew at Trudeau's funeral in the front row as a dignified person when he had been such a brutal leader,

00:48:11.720 says more about Pierre Trudeau than it does about Fidel Castro. Here's where we should probably touch

00:48:17.000 on what Castro had done and what he was continuing to do while going on beach vacations with the Trudeau family.

00:48:24.840 If you want to hear the rest of the story, make sure you subscribe to Canada Did What?

00:48:30.040 everywhere you get your podcasts.

Full Comment - December 15, 2025

Carney helps Chinese interference make a comeback

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