Carney helps Chinese interference make a comeback
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Summary
After the kidnapping of Michael Chua and years of discussion about foreign interference, I would have thought that Canadian elected officials were put off on the idea of cozying up to China. But the Carney government is at least paying lip service to that.
Transcript
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After the kidnapping of the two Michaels and years of discussion about foreign interference,
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I would have thought that Canadian elected officials were, well, kind of put off on the
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idea of cozying up to China. Beijing is not the answer to our troubles with Washington,
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but the Carney government is at least paying lip service to that.
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Hello and welcome to the Full Comment Podcast. My name's Brian Lilly, your host,
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and this week we're going to take another look at China, especially through the eyes
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of Charles Burton. He's a former Canadian diplomat who served in Beijing twice during the 1990s,
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the beginning of the decade and the end. He's an academic who's long written about this issue,
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and he has a new book out called The Beaver and the Dragon, How China Outmaneuvered Canada's
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Diplomacy, Security, and Sovereignty. Charles, thanks for the time.
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Yeah, it's been a while, but I'm not sure that the issues of China that you and I have talked
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about in the past have really changed all that much. We appear to have slipped back into our
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naive sense that, well, we're Canada, we can deal with Beijing, everything's going to be fine.
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What would you say to what you've seen from the Carney government over the last little while
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in terms of saying we can pivot towards China while we're having trouble with Washington?
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Well, I mean, certainly I think that the Carney government wants to give the impression that
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they're working hard to diversify our trade away from the United States to salvage prosperity and
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through international relations and save factories and save jobs and so on. It's not going to happen
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with China. And the cost that the Chinese are extracting is for a promise to provide us more
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access to the Chinese market of a rather diffuse nature. Our government is basically following
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everything that China wants in its geostrategic reach into Canada. I mean, I was quite shocked when I
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heard the comments of the Canadian Deputy Foreign Minister, David Morrison, at a reception to mark the
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Chinese National Day. It happened, Chinese National Day is October the 1st. This happened September 26th.
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And the Chinese ambassador made a speech where he essentially said, you know, Canada is going to
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correct its ways and that Canada will adopt a pragmatic and constructive approach to China,
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which is what they want, and that we should set aside differences and seek common ground.
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Well, then the Deputy Foreign Minister quoted the Chinese language of pragmatic and constructive
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and said how much the Prime Minister would agree to the ambassador's warm words. Well, when the Chinese
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say pragmatic and constructive and set aside differences and focus on commonalities, what they mean
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is that we will cease to criticize Chinese regime behavior in any way. And that would include
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Chinese influence operations, Chinese stealing of dual use military technologies, restricting Chinese
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access to the North and so on. Just interrupt a second, Charles. What they really mean is not,
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don't criticize us on human rights, which they never want, and which Canadian governments really just
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have always paid lip service to. They're saying, don't complain that we're stealing from you
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on your industrial base, that we're spying on you, that we're trying to influence your election.
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Don't talk about the things that we're doing in your country that are upsetting you.
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Right. And, and, you know, I think it's basically giving them a buy that says, we will never expel any of
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your diplomats who are involved in influence operations, bribery, uh, coordinating espionage.
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I mean, we only expel the, the one guy, Jiao Wei, when the, the, the Globe and Mail revealed that this
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man had been attempting to prepare to harass the family of the conservative foreign affairs critic,
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Michael Chong. But, you know, CSIS knows that there are a lot of these people in our country. There has
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been evidence given in parliament that the enormous Chinese diplomatic cohort in Canada is 70%
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people who are not involved in legitimate diplomatic function. Why do we tolerate that?
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And then we have the prime minister responding to Xi Jinping when they met briefly in Korea,
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using the same language. Xi Jinping said pragmatic and constructive, and our PM repeated it twice,
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and said even more disturbingly, that we would look at a dialogue to help build a more sustainable
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and inclusive international system. And that's again, Chinese code words for their plan to become
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the dominant power on the planet, what they call the community of the common destiny of mankind.
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And our prime minister is using language which suggests that Canada will support this. It, it just
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completely blows my mind about how captured our people seem to have been. They don't seem to have
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much corporate memory about how badly things can go with China and how the Chinese infiltration of our
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society, the co-opting of our elites and so on is a six, is a successive process. So, you know.
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Should we be shocked at David Morrison though, just to go back to the deputy minister who you started this
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story with? He figured prominently in the foreign interference inquiry, headed up by Justice Hoag.
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He was at one point, the national security advisor who apparently missed all this
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David Morrison Well, I think it is a question of,
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you know, we know from the Aug inquiry and from the leaks to the Globe and Mail and to Global News and
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Sam Cooper that our security agencies have been expressing a lot of concern about activities of
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Chinese Communist Party, United Front Work Department and Ministry of State Security operations. And,
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you know, Minister Blair lost the, the warrant to have a, to have a, um, um, uh, surveillance of a,
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of a prominent, uh, Ontario cabinet minister, former Ontario cabinet minister. Um, uh,
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other ones, uh, the prime minister said, well, we received it from CSIS, but, uh, we don't really
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think that it's true. And so we didn't act on it or the case where, um, where, um, that the, the
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CSIS was asked to revise a report. I mean, if the prime minister feels that all these warnings from
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CSIS are, are not valid, then why doesn't he fire the head of CSIS and get in people that will give him
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information that he does, he can rely on. So it, it, it, it is pretty bad actually, and, and getting
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worse. And it seems that under the Carney government, we're going back to a complete blindness on
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anything that China's doing that isn't an, that doesn't impact on, um, on our ability or our hope
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to gain more share of the Chinese market and remove the tariffs on canola seeds and allow Chinese
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investment in Canada and all of these things that, uh, would build our prosperity that the Chinese
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constantly promise us that they historically have never fulfilled.
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There's an old saying that, uh, only Nixon could go to China. And of course,
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liberals have long loved to say to me, yes, but Trudeau went first, uh, meaning pure Trudeau.
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Uh, would you say that Canada's, uh, bumpy ride, bumpy journey, naive interactions with China
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go back to Pierre Trudeau's time in office? I mean, he clearly was a, an admirer of the country. He had
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toured it when Westerners could not. Uh, is that what started the, the sense that, you know, Canada could
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be a player with China, that Canada and China would have a different relationship. The, that,
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the naive sentiment that is at the basis of this relationship.
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I, I think that that, that is true. I mean, certainly, um, at the end of his, just at the
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end of his prime ministership, Mr. Trudeau hosted the, the general secretary of the Chinese Communist
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Party, Zhao Ziyang, to give a joint, um, address to parliament. And in that, Mr. Trudeau waxed nostalgic
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about how he talked with Premier Zhou Enlai on his 1970s trip to China about global affairs until
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late in the night. So Mr. Trudeau admired Chairman Mao and, uh, and Zhou Enlai, uh, even though this was
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the cultural revolution when, um, you know, any notion that China was anyway compliant with anything
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like his Canadian charter of rights and freedoms was simply not true. And his earlier trip with Senator
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Jacques Hubert was in the middle of the great leap forward famine, which was caused by, by, uh,
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Chairman Mao's communization of the countryside and insistence that, um, that, that farmers
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melt steel by melting down, melting down iron implements. But, you know, it was a tragic event
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where up to 40 million people died out of a population of 700 million at the time because of bad
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government policy. And Mr. Trudeau and Senator Hebert in their book, Two Innocents in China,
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which was re-released in English after Mr. Trudeau became prime minister in 68, seems to not to have
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noticed that there was an ongoing massive famine government caused going on in the country. So,
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you know, it, it, it, it, it certainly, I don't think we can say that Mr. Trudeau did this personally,
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but there were a lot of people at the time who thought that the Chinese communist revolution was
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a superior way, uh, and a model for third world countries that wouldn't be beholden to the Soviet
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Union and to the Americans. So in a way, I think Trudeau was trying to, to, uh, stick it to, to Nixon.
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And then Nixon shortly thereafter sent Kissinger to establish relations with China based on the idea that
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China and America get together to counter Russia. So yes, I mean, it is a Trudeau thing and certainly,
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um, Justin Trudeau was well aware of this tradition and I think felt that he could, um, um, carry on
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his father's legacy with China. It, it, it's been a disaster for Canada. We're probably the most
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infiltrated of the Western countries by the Chinese regime simply because we don't take any action
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against espionage influence operations. We don't, we don't address China's support for third world
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dictatorships through transfer of surveillance technologies. And of course we don't build our,
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our defense against Chinese potential Chinese incursions, particularly in the Arctic where
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China defines itself as a near Arctic state. Although if you look at the map of the world,
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they're, um, they're about as near as Yemen. Yeah. I want to get to that in a bit because of the
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interesting story that I've related before about comments from the Chinese regime around the time
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that Hu Jintao visited Canada in 2010. Well, that's when Stephen Harper was prime minister and Stephen
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Harper tried to take a different view. He tried to take at the beginning a tougher approach with China,
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but the business community in this country revolted at that. He tried to say, look, China is a human
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rights abuser. China is involved in industrial and, um, industrial espionage among others, uh, that this
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is a problem and we have to face it. Uh, and they need to give back Canadians that they're holding, uh,
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such as Mr. Salil, the business community freaked out and, uh, browbeat him effectively into changing
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his tune. You know, I know you've write extensively in the book about Mr. Harper. Would you agree with
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that sentiment that he changed over time from one view to another, and then finally, uh, probably a third?
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Well, I think, I mean, always within Canadian cabinets, you have a split between those who are
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beholden to business elements that, that have extensive lucrative dealings with Chinese communist
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business networks and those who are more concerned about security and in fact, human rights issues. So,
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you know, within the Harper cabinet, you had Jason Kenney, who I think was consistently standing on the,
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on the right side in terms of concern about the malign influence of the, of the Chinese regime. Mr.
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Kenny appeared at my book launch in Ottawa last week and gave a very nice speech. I, I'm grateful to
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him for having tried his best to, to, to keep things on the rails. He failed. I mean, maybe it was like
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a split between the Moroni element in the conservative party and, uh, and the reform element where the
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Moroni people are involved with, with Quebec businesses, you know, at the time Bombardier, uh,
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SAC Lavalin and so on had quite a lot of investment in China and naturally had a lot of influence
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in the prime minister's office over decisions relating to trade because they built a lot of
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prosperity in Canada. You, you actually titled one of your, your chapters, um, uh, why did Harper go to
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China? The ethnic vote and money, kind of a paraphrase of Jack, uh, Jacques Pariseau. But there,
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there's a huge, huge amount of influence, especially in the Montreal business community,
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more so than I would say here in Toronto, although it's significant here, but there's a huge influence
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in the Montreal business community with China. Yeah. I think that that's historically been the
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case. You know, Bombardier has done an awful lot of business in that country. And now under Carney,
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we seem to be returning to that kind of mentality. You know, a couple of years ago, we put together the
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Indo-Pacific policy and there was an extraordinary section where really quite good where they defined
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China as a disruptive power in global affairs. I, I didn't like disruptive power. I want a strategic
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competitor. Uh, but when Hu Jintao was in Canada back in, in the mid, uh, 2000, 2005, you know, we came
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up with this strategic partnership agreement and now under, under Carney and foreign minister and and we've,
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we've gone back to strategic partnership. I mean, what sort of insanity is this? How can we possibly be a
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partner with a country that is so actively hostile to pretty much everything that Canada believes in
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economically and in terms of, of the, the, the world community? So we, we seem to forget that they
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kidnapped two of our people as hostage diplomacy, that they destroyed one of the bedrocks of every
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Canadian pension plan in Nortel and that they continue to interfere in our elections. We, we seem to have
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just said, oh yeah, well that was before, but it's different now. Yeah. I think that that, that is the case.
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And certainly Michael Kovarik has been writing really very powerful pieces on this exact thing about
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how naive and well, and it's sort of a combination of naivete where the polls are showing that more and
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more Canadians are feeling more favorable to closer engagement with China and, and greed, which is
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really about, you know, the businesses get some short-term benefits from China and then, uh, our, our
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security and sovereignty continues to fall further and further into a, a Chinese, um, Chinese trap. So
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it, I'm, I'm, I'm despairing about how it's going to be over the next few years, especially if Mr.
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Carney gets a majority in the spring and goes hollus ballus for, um, allowing China to, to get a buy on
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all of the non-trade aspects of the, of the relationship. You know, will we, um, will we, um,
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allow China to engage in mining operations? There, will we revive the free trade agreement
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that Mr. Trudeau bungled back in 2017? And the Asia Pacific Foundation even suggests that we might,
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um, enter the Chinese Belt and Road Initiative, which, uh, is really involved in restructuring the
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global economy towards China at the center. Do you think we could go that far as joining
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Belt and Road? Well, not if I have anything to say about it or you, but you know. I mean,
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we were part of the Asian infrastructure bank. Well, we still are. I mean, you know, we suspended,
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we didn't leave it. And you know, as you'll read in the book, I think I certainly oppose that because
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that really was, uh, uh, an agency designed us to fund the Belt and Road. In other words,
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and, and as we found out subsequently, we put a lot of money, I think, pushing up to a billion dollars
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in the Asian infrastructure investment bank or commitment to that and never got anything back
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for it. They never bought any Canadian stuff. Help people understand, um, who maybe aren't obsessed
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the way you and I are. Uh, but we'll want to, you know, hear what you're saying and then, you know,
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go and read your book. Uh, so the Asian infrastructure bank, as you say, was used to fund
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Belt and Road. So the Asian infrastructure bank controlled by Beijing, other countries were putting
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money into it. And then what was that money used for? What explain a little bit what Belt and Road
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is all about? Now, the Belt and Road Initiative is a project, um, designed to build infrastructure
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and port facilities throughout the world to really facilitate the transfer of natural resources
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into China. So you've got the belts and the roads, the, the belts are the sea,
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are the sea, uh, transportation routes facilitated by China. And the roads are, are, um,
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are land transportation going all the way, uh, to Europe. So the China's invested a lot in third
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world countries in port facilities and upgrading, uh, facilities to get, uh, minerals to tidewater,
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which then go to China. It's not, not due to benevolence. Well, they say it's benevolent
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and they're inclined to, you know, build new palaces for dictators and sports stadiums and that kind
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of thing, but it really is about getting stuff out to China. And I, and I've noticed, uh, in some of
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my work that the countries that China provides the most loan forgiveness to because the loans are given
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in ways where the money is not monitored as closely as the world bank or, or the Japanese Asian development
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bank. And a lot of it seems to end up in Swiss bank accounts, leaving the nations holding the bag
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for some poor infrastructure projects that don't produce the anticipated returns. But what you're
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looking at is, is countries that have desirable port facilities seem to get more Chinese investment.
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And you can't help, but think that that's really with a view in future to China, setting up blue water
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naval facilities and submarines in these critical parts of the world as part of its overall, the community
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of the common destiny of mankind program, which, you know, debases international institutions like
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the UN and WTO in favor of ones based on, on China as the dominant superpower. And the other,
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this is what the British did over years. It's what the Americans did.
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Well, I think that's what the Africans are thinking. You know, um, maybe the Chinese will be better,
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but in fact, the Chinese have a much more, um, long-term systematic plan for global domination,
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which you can read about pretty clearly if you read Chinese in particular, that that's what the regime
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is trying to sell to its people. I don't think they'll succeed because the Chinese economy is not going
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well. And the Xi regime is, is not, um, being successful in terms of serving the people's needs and
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of people in China feel uncertain about the future. And so they're not spending and you're, they're
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suffering from deflation and so on. But with the Belt and Road by, by providing these generous loans,
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China, in some cases seems to anticipate the loans will fail. And then in compensation demands like
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a 99 year lease on a port. They've done that in a couple of places. So they're able to use a kind of loan,
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um, leverage to gain Chinese advantage in geo strategic, militarily geo strategic areas. I mean,
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in the Chinese regime, you cannot separate Chinese business from the Chinese communist party, the
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military and, um, and the state. They're all, they're all working in very sophisticated, uh, coordination
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to achieve overall Chinese goals. And we just can't match it. You know, sometimes I think I should go
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over to the dark side and work for the Chinese cause they seem to be getting further in things,
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but unfortunately my Canadian values hold me back. I just can't, I just can't stomach the idea.
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Certainly they'd like me to, they have offered me, uh, opportunities to make a lot of money, uh,
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which I have so far turned down. Uh, we have to take a quick break. When we come back though,
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I do want to ask you about the military and their vision of themselves as an Arctic nation or near
00:21:51.600
Arctic nation. But, uh, before that, I'll get quick comments from you on, on canola tariffs and EVs
00:21:58.000
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This is Tristan Hopper, the host of Canada Did What?, where we unpack the biggest, weirdest,
00:23:34.720
and wildest political moments in Canadian history you thought you knew and tell you what really
00:23:39.760
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podcasts. So Charles, The Beaver and the Dragon is really a collection of essays. It's not, you know,
00:23:56.300
one big tomb that goes through, but you've collected all these essays and you talk about different things.
00:24:01.660
And at one point you're writing that trade with China is never free. Interesting. Similar to the title of a book
00:24:08.840
I have behind me from Robert Lighthizer, No Trade is Free. So that applies around the world. But, you know,
00:24:16.700
right now China has slapped canola tariffs on Canadian products, as they did in 2013-14 and 2017 and 2020.
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They had a ban for two years. They really like hitting on canola. Also pork and seafood, also facing tariffs.
00:24:35.360
And now they're saying, but, but, but, if you just get rid of your tariffs on our electric vehicles that
00:24:41.160
we're dumping into your market, uh, at half the price it costs to make them and you allow us to spy on
00:24:47.360
you using these cars, we will lift the canola tariffs. Is that a good deal? Uh, well, I oppose it.
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I mean, you know, it used to be that when they, when they complained about, um, when they tried to use
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economic leverage by restricting access of our commodities to the market, they'd come up with
00:25:06.740
some fake reason. I mean, when they, when they, uh, imposed the, uh, the, uh, the ban on Canadian
00:25:13.300
canola in response to Canada's, um, um, detention of the Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou in response to a U.S.
00:25:22.720
extradition request, they said, oh, your canola has, you know, musks and, and, uh, stuff in the, in the,
00:25:30.460
in the, in the, in the non-seed portion. I mean, it was complete and utter nonsense. I mean, none of
00:25:34.980
our other company, uh, other customers for canola had any complaints about, uh, contamination. This
00:25:41.480
time they don't bother with that. And they've got to the point where they're strong enough that they
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can just arbitrarily decide to violate the norms of international trade and they will. But, you
00:25:52.700
know, I, I spoke at the parliamentary committee that was considering the a hundred percent tariff
00:25:57.400
on EVs and, you know, there were a lot of unions and auto companies. Everybody there was supporting
00:26:02.420
the tariff idea. My, my support for the tariff idea was because of what you said, which is they're
00:26:07.860
basically spy machines on wheels. They're worse than Huawei 5G in terms of their threat to us.
00:26:13.540
And because they, they are subject to control from China. So, uh, software update could be put in that
00:26:20.360
would allow the Chinese to, you know, cripple the EVs, uh, if there was a conflict over Taiwan or South
00:26:27.320
China Sea or whatever. And, and there's also the American notion, which is that if Canadians bought
00:26:34.420
Chinese EVs, uh, the Americans would not let Canadians drive them into the United States. So,
00:26:39.500
you know, if you want to get to your condo in Florida, don't take your EV, you'll have to fly
00:26:44.260
or get a gas car. So, I mean, clearly the EVs are so subsidized by the Chinese state that those unions
00:26:52.760
and auto manufacturers are right, um, that they would devastate, uh, our own auto market. But the
00:26:58.780
reason, you know, one of the complaints that I do hear from farmers and that includes family members
00:27:04.360
who are growing canola is that, well, you know, there really isn't an EV industry in Canada, but
00:27:11.200
China's not interested in eliminating the EV industry, uh, industry in Canada. They want to
00:27:18.120
eliminate the auto industry in Canada is my view. Am I taking it too far?
00:27:24.500
Well, I mean, China and the U S both would like to see, uh, no manufacturer of autos in Southern
00:27:29.960
Ontario, which, uh, is a pretty big hit for Canadian economy. I mean, Mr. Trump wants to
00:27:35.800
relocate the factories to, uh, United States and China would like to, as you say, completely dominate
00:27:41.640
our auto sector, which would again, give them enormous leverage over, uh, Canada in non-trade areas.
00:27:48.600
But, uh, you know, the reason that the EVs are so cheap is the same reason that Huawei, um, 5G
00:27:54.440
technology was undercutting, um, Samsung and, and, um, Ericsson by 30% because the Chinese factor in
00:28:03.080
the benefit to their, to their geostrategic interests and espionage by subsidizing both Huawei and the EV
00:28:10.440
industry enormously. So, uh, you know, I, I can see what's happening here, but, um, you know, on the
00:28:18.120
one hand, you've got the canola farmers who 40,000 of them, uh, and, and associated, uh, numbers of
00:28:26.520
people that, that rely on canola farmers for, for consumption and their own businesses who are
00:28:31.560
devastated by this action. And of course, lots of Canadians who would love to have a cheap,
00:28:36.200
wonderful Chinese EV. Apparently the battery technology is better. And, you know, they're
00:28:41.800
selling for something ridiculously small, like $8,000 in Brazil for the cheapest ones. So,
00:28:47.960
you know, maybe not 8,000, but not very much compared to our auto costs. So, um, it's again,
00:28:54.280
uh, the Chinese able to use economic leverage to overcome our concerns over our security and
00:29:00.440
sovereignty. And I don't think we ought to give in, but my guess is we will.
00:29:04.760
My advice to those in the canola industry is that, look, they are a bad partner. And every time
00:29:11.320
there is any kind of disagreement with China, they're going to hit you. Um, they banned you
00:29:17.560
for two years, find other markets, be it in India, Mexico, South Korea, find other markets,
00:29:23.240
because these guys, you know, take the profit when you can, but they're unreliable and they'll,
00:29:29.560
The global commodity, you know, it, it, there will be other markets elsewhere. And of course,
00:29:34.600
our canola farmers already, uh, cycle barley and wheat with canola. I mean, canola is a higher value
00:29:40.440
crop, but it's not like the, the, the, the fields have to lie fallow. We've just got to adjust. But
00:29:46.920
I do think that, you know, the government ought to be much more aware of the concerns of our Saskatchewan
00:29:52.680
and Alberta, um, canola farmers and the government is not. In other words, there's quite a different
00:29:57.880
attitude towards helping out the Southern Ontario auto industry among the Laurentian elite than, than
00:30:05.800
honest, hardworking farmers in the prairies who have been, as you say, suffering from this political
00:30:12.040
problems with their, with their crop, which seems to be even worse than, than, uh, climate drought and,
00:30:18.040
uh, and, uh, and floods. So, you know, government should be paying more attention to those concerns
00:30:24.840
than they're not. And naturally they're, there, there's a move for independence. If, if central Canada
00:30:32.200
just pretends that there isn't a problem here that they need to address. Total two-way trade with,
00:30:37.960
uh, China is under $120 billion a year. Most of that is China sending us stuff, um, tinkers,
00:30:49.080
manufactured products, a lot of plastics. We send raw materials. Um, is it even plausible that we can
00:31:00.360
pivot towards China, the way that Mark Carney has been hinting at, to replace American markets?
00:31:08.680
Well, I mean, it's ridiculous. I mean, China will not, will not start accepting a large amount of
00:31:14.040
Canadian imports when their own economy is doing so badly. And it's just there, I don't know what
00:31:19.320
feasibility study they've done on this, but you know, it's not happening. And I mean, there are things
00:31:24.360
that we should be doing. We should be trying to challenge the Chinese near monopoly on critical minerals.
00:31:29.880
You know, we, we should be not shipping the stuff to, to China for processing, but we ought to be
00:31:35.320
doing the investment in, in getting, uh, identifying where these, um, where these rare earths are
00:31:42.760
and processing them, you know, building the factories to process them in Canada. And certainly if we did
00:31:48.600
that, that would strengthen our hand considerably with the nations that are involved in this, in
00:31:54.360
manufacture of high tech goods in, in Eastern Asia and give us some basis to really get more access
00:31:59.880
to the markets there by, by making a commitment to, to help them diversify away from a frightening
00:32:07.080
dependence on China for these elements, which are so in increasingly important as, as our high tech
00:32:15.320
AI and so on moves from strength to strength. It would give us tremendous leverage with the
00:32:20.200
Americans as well. They would be over the moon.
00:32:21.640
Well, I mean, the Americans ought to realize that, you know, it's all very well that you've got many,
00:32:27.160
a lot more population, but when it comes down to natural resources and water, um, electricity,
00:32:32.520
and so on, you know, they, they, they need us, uh, probably a lot more than they appreciate.
00:32:37.160
I mean, Mr. Trump says we don't need Canada. Uh, on that point, he's wrong.
00:32:42.920
The, the view of the, the Carney government though, is that we can go get a, a win-win deal here.
00:32:50.520
And that's not something that you believe is feasible with China. I, you know, I, I wonder
00:32:56.360
whether it's feasible with Donald Trump at the moment, generally speaking, I would say with the
00:32:59.880
Americans, yes, but Trump is a tough negotiator who's got very, you know, uh, firm ideas on what
00:33:06.680
he wants, but the Chinese don't even think in those terms, do they? No, I, I mean, the idea that we can
00:33:13.480
come up with, you know, strategic partnership with two nations that pose an existential threat to
00:33:20.360
Canada's, um, way of life and democracy, which is the United States that would, wants us to be the
00:33:27.000
51st state and then move on to Greenland and China, which wants to turn Canada into a subordinate, um,
00:33:34.440
supplier of raw materials to feed China's global domination. You know, we really need to be
00:33:41.800
looking at countries that don't pose an existential threat to Canada and strengthening our relations,
00:33:47.880
uh, with, uh, Trans-Pacific Partnership and like-minded nations in, uh, in Europe and particularly,
00:33:54.840
um, northern nations with regard to trying to strengthen our ability to defend the Arctic
00:34:01.240
from Russia and Chinese claims that the, the parts of the Arctic that are under, that should
00:34:08.040
be under Canadian sovereign control, in fact, are international and can be exploited by Russia and
00:34:14.440
China. I'm, I'm waiting for Canada to agree to China to be involved in Arctic development and port
00:34:21.320
facilities and so on, which really would be game over in terms of our notion that Canada is the
00:34:28.040
true North strong and free. Do you, do you mean having China come in to somewhere like, uh,
00:34:33.880
Grays Bay port and say, we'll help you develop this. We'll invest in this.
00:34:39.880
Well, you know, it's like the, it was like the mine, the gold of money losing gold mine a few years
00:34:44.600
ago up there where it turns out it was spitting distance from a NORAD installation and had a,
00:34:50.440
an outlet into the Arctic sea. You know, China is so blatant about what, what they're going to do
00:34:56.200
in this regard because they have such, they feel so confident now that they can basically tell Canada
00:35:03.400
to shove it. I mean, the interaction between Xi Jinping and Carney was quite different from what we
00:35:09.240
saw when the Chinese were treating Pierre Trudeau so kindly and, and sending senior leaders to
00:35:15.320
accompany him on tours of the Yangtze river. Mr. Xi was basically looking at Mr. Carney as a, as a,
00:35:22.920
as a subordinate and, and, um, admonishing him as, as a school child that, that was behaving out of,
00:35:29.640
out of, uh, out of, out of turn. So it, it's a very, from the Chinese point of view, their relations
00:35:36.200
with Canada are very different from the way they were before. And Mr. Carney seems to be giving
00:35:41.160
into this by, you know, echoing their kind of language for the way the relationship should be
00:35:47.320
pragmatic, constructive, set aside differences and seek common ground. All this stuff is,
00:35:52.840
is Chinese language, not Canadian language. In terms of the Arctic, um, I mentioned earlier about
00:36:01.560
Hu Jintao when he was, um, the top leader on the Chinese side, Chinese president, uh, and he came
00:36:10.200
to visit Stephen Harper in 2010. Just before he arrived, one of my colleagues noted an interview
00:36:17.880
that a top Chinese general had given talking about how, well, China is a near Arctic nation and we are
00:36:26.440
20% of the world's population. Therefore we deserve 20% of the resources under the Arctic.
00:36:32.840
They have a very different view of what to do in the Arctic. One, I think they want to control parts
00:36:39.000
of it and they have more vessels up there than we do. Yes. But two, I think they would also drill
00:36:44.360
baby drill if they could, or mine, or, you know, any resource that's up there, they would exploit it.
00:36:51.080
Is that a major concern for us? And does it tie into the American concern that we're not serious
00:37:01.000
about Arctic sovereignty and looking after our, as Steve Bannon put it to me, our soft underbelly?
00:37:07.640
Well, I mean, absolutely. And you know, we, we have over past years allowed the Chinese to engage
00:37:14.520
in so-called scientific expeditions up in the Arctic. I think that the, the word is that China has been
00:37:21.000
doing more mapping of Arctic waters than Canada has. And we've been finding, um, espionage buoys
00:37:27.480
that have been dropped close to our shores, which the Chinese have, have set out in the course of
00:37:32.680
these activities. So, I mean, their interest in, in gaining, um, benefit from the Arctic is pretty
00:37:39.640
transparent. And I think the idea that they would, that they would offer to Canada, that they would
00:37:45.800
assist us in, um, Arctic development is also there, particularly if this appalling idea that Canada
00:37:53.240
joins the Belt and Road Initiative leads to China saying, oh yeah, well, we'll, we'll do investment
00:37:58.200
up there. You don't have the resources we do. We can, we can help you make the most of Arctic ports and,
00:38:03.880
uh, and, uh, resource, um, development in that part of the world. And they, and they also deal directly
00:38:11.480
with, um, the, uh, the Inuit and other, um, indigenous peoples up there, uh, often claiming
00:38:18.920
that, you know, you're really Chinese, but you have cultural, uh, similarities to us and that, uh,
00:38:26.280
we will provide you with the economic benefits that the Canadian government is not. Well, I mean,
00:38:31.240
that sort of stuff is, uh, you know, we shouldn't be allowing that to happen.
00:38:34.360
What should we be doing then to, to protect Canada's sovereignty in the Arctic? Cause China
00:38:40.280
clearly has plans and designs. So what should we do, whether it's at the political level or the
00:38:46.840
military level? Well, I think, I mean, the, you know, I mean the military level, we, we,
00:38:51.560
we need to be making massive investment in being able to defend our country. I mean, what country in
00:38:57.400
the world cannot defend its borders? That would be Canada. And I guess it's a matter of, of making
00:39:03.000
decisions that prioritize the defense of Canada from, from foreigners and particularly up in the
00:39:09.160
North, it's about Russia and China. But I think politically is we have to stop tolerating what
00:39:15.480
China's doing. And so if China has a diplomatic cohort where most of them are not involved in
00:39:24.120
their legitimate diplomatic function, we should be sending those people back. We shouldn't allow
00:39:29.800
the Chinese to have a lot more, um, agents in our country than, than we're allowed diplomats in
00:39:35.400
their country. Can you elaborate on that? I know it's something I've talked to you and others about
00:39:40.040
in the past, but, um, the, the, the sheer size of the Chinese diplomatic core in Canada far outstrips
00:39:51.160
our relations. Yeah. I mean it, um, I was in parliament, uh, last week and, um, conservative party
00:39:58.120
gave a statistic of 176 Chinese diplomats in Canada, and that's pushing up to the number that
00:40:04.600
the Americans have compared to 40 some for the Japanese, 30 some for the Indians. There's no
00:40:10.280
justification for having that many people here. And when we accept a diplomat, the, the country
00:40:16.600
that's sending a diplomat has to tell us what they'll be doing. And so, you know, our Chinese diplomats
00:40:22.680
so much less efficient than those of other nations that they need four times the number
00:40:26.920
than, than the country really justifies. And that doesn't include their, their immigration, um,
00:40:33.080
program, which it, which they've subcontracted to, to private sources. So when you want a Chinese
00:40:38.520
visa, you're not going to the embassy or consulate, you're going to a facility offsite.
00:40:42.360
And not to speak of this problem of the police stations and the diplomats are affiliated. The
00:40:51.000
diplomats in question are affiliated with the Chinese state ministry, state security,
00:40:55.960
or it's associated institution, which is the Chinese communist party's
00:40:59.960
united front work department. And so when you have a situation where you, you hear in the
00:41:04.920
all commission, for example, that Chinese people were induced to vote for candidates that China felt
00:41:10.920
would favor China's interests. And we're providing, um, red envelopes to donors of Chinese origin
00:41:19.160
to compensate for the part of their donation, which would not be able to be written off their tax.
00:41:24.760
This is done by proxies offsite in those so-called police stations, which are really, um, I guess,
00:41:31.000
non-official Chinese consular facilities. Like if, when you want to pick up your, your money for making
00:41:37.560
the donation to compensate for the section, the part of it that was not able to be tax deductible,
00:41:43.560
you're not going to knock on the door of the Chinese consul. It's going to be done through an
00:41:47.320
association friendly to China that has operations offsite. So we, you know, I don't understand why
00:41:55.560
we tolerate this. I assume that CSIS knows about what's going on, but maybe at the political center,
00:42:02.360
it's felt, well, you know, we don't want to cause trouble with the Chinese and interfere
00:42:07.240
with our trade relations. So we'll just let it go. It's, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's a very foolish
00:42:13.320
and short-sighted, um, approach, but then I think we have to have concern about Canadian policymakers
00:42:21.160
and politicians who are beholden to China, even in the notion that maybe if you're, if you don't do
00:42:28.360
anything that China wouldn't like while you're in a position of public trust, after you leave
00:42:33.320
politics, you know, in your mid fifties, you can make big money working for law firms or Chinese
00:42:38.440
firms on boards, uh, which reward you for having been a friend of China when you had a, um, a civil
00:42:45.320
service or, or political position. And let's remember the Ansikop report that suggested that I think there
00:42:51.400
were 11, uh, members of parliament that were seen as wittingly or unwittingly under the influence of
00:42:58.920
the foreign power and a larger number of staffers in the same situation. And we're aware of this kind
00:43:05.160
of thing going on in, in Britain and the United States and people being arrested and expelled,
00:43:10.840
but nobody seems to be called to task for this in Canada. And we never found out who those 13 members
00:43:17.800
of parliament were, and presumably they ran again for parliament and could well be serving in parliament
00:43:23.480
now. It's frustrating. And I remember several years ago talking to, uh, Michelle Juno Katsuya,
00:43:30.520
former CSIS agent about, um, operation Sidewinder and the Sidewinder report, which detailed the
00:43:38.440
infiltration of China back in the 1990s and going back into the 1980s and how it was done. And that was
00:43:45.320
leaked out and never really resulted in any change. And I thought, well, when we get a public inquiry
00:43:54.280
into Chinese election interference, surely this is going to change something. I don't think it's
00:44:00.280
changed a thing. I mean, certainly that report was the beginning and now we see how it's developed and
00:44:07.000
developed over those years since 98. And let's bear in mind, I mean, what has actually happened as a
00:44:13.320
result of the AUG inquiry? Anything different? Uh, don't see it. And then we had Bill C-70, which
00:44:19.720
called for a foreign influence transparency commissioner and a foreign influence transparency
00:44:24.600
registry that would require people who have a conflict of interest because they're receiving
00:44:29.320
benefits from a foreign state to declare that publicly. That legislation was passed through parliament
00:44:35.720
in June, 2024. And there's no sign of the commissioner or the registry and no sign that it'll be coming
00:44:42.200
up anytime soon. Uh, despite assurances from the government that, you know, would happen a year
00:44:48.200
after the, after legislation went through. And then they said it would happen in September. And then they
00:44:52.920
said it would happen before the end of the year. Um, now there seems they're talking about maybe sometime
00:44:59.080
next spring. Uh, the government has to have an ordering council appointment of a commissioner.
00:45:05.400
How hard is that? When we needed a fentanyl commissioner, they were able to do it lickety split.
00:45:10.600
But when it comes to somebody who might reveal that there are Canadians, respected Canadians who have
00:45:17.320
served in government in the past, who are receiving benefits from China, it seems that the government
00:45:24.360
is, uh, is, uh, not prepared to act with very much, uh, speed.
00:45:29.000
His book is The Beaver and the Dragon, How China Outmaneuvered Canada's Diplomacy, Security, and
00:45:34.440
Sovereignty. Do check it out. Collection of Essays, an easy read. Charles Burton. Thanks so much as always.
00:45:42.680
Full Comment is a post-media podcast. My name's Brian Lilly, your host. This episode was produced by
00:45:47.880
Andre Proulx. Theme music by Bryce Hall. Kevin Libman is the executive producer. Make sure that you
00:45:53.160
hit subscribe, leave us a review, tell your friends and neighbors about us. Thanks for listening.
00:46:05.080
Here's that clip from Canada Did What? I promised you.
00:46:11.960
Castro would end up occupying a space in the Trudeau family similar to that of a beloved uncle.
00:46:17.320
They went diving. They smoked cigars together. They gathered sea urchins for beach cookouts.
00:46:24.360
Informal talks at an island hideaway intensified their respect for each other and their mutual
00:46:30.520
enjoyment of skin diving added to the rapport. In addition to a well-publicized 1976 summit meeting,
00:46:37.560
Trudeau took three separate vacations to visit Castro after his time in politics had ended.
00:46:42.680
I can make just one reference to Pierre Trudeau's sons to show the closeness of the relationship. The
00:46:54.200
nickname that the Trudeau's sons had for Fidel Castro was Papa Fidel. So that gives you an indication of
00:47:01.800
the closeness of the bond that existed between the communist dictator, you know, thorn in the side of
00:47:09.800
every American administration for the past 50 years and Pierre Trudeau.
00:47:14.680
When Trudeau's youngest son, Michel, died in an avalanche in 1998, Castro called the family in
00:47:21.000
tears to express his condolences. As an eight-year-old, Michel had referred to Fidel Castro as his best
00:47:27.800
friend. When Pierre died, Fidel declared three days of mourning in Cuba and flew to Montreal to act as an
00:47:34.280
honorary pallbearer. Every time Trudeau went down to Cuba, all the people in South Florida, the exiles
00:47:43.160
were thinking, why is this Western leader giving comfort to a murderous dictator who is oppressing
00:47:51.160
their people in Cuba and saying good things about Fidel Castro? And as I've mentioned, to have him in the
00:47:58.200
pew at Trudeau's funeral in the front row as a dignified person when he had been such a brutal leader,
00:48:11.720
says more about Pierre Trudeau than it does about Fidel Castro. Here's where we should probably touch
00:48:17.000
on what Castro had done and what he was continuing to do while going on beach vacations with the Trudeau family.
00:48:24.840
If you want to hear the rest of the story, make sure you subscribe to Canada Did What?