Full Comment - Carney's China deal is deeper and more dangerous than tariffs

00:00:00.000 Is trade with China an economic opportunity or a national defense and security threat? 0.77

00:00:07.000 Perhaps it's both.

00:00:08.480 Hello and welcome to the Full Comment Podcast.

00:00:10.420 My name's Brian Lilly, your host.

00:00:12.180 Ever since Prime Minister Mark Carney's visit to China in mid-January

00:00:15.900 and the announcement of a new strategic partnership,

00:00:19.220 the praising of a new world order,

00:00:21.700 in one which apparently China would be at the center,

00:00:24.360 there's been a lot of debate about what Mark Carney has tied us into.

00:00:28.480 Is it a good idea?

00:00:29.280 Is it a bad idea?

00:00:30.800 There are an awful lot of problems with what has been described

00:00:34.200 as the new strategic partnership with China.

00:00:36.740 The joint announcement put out by President Xi and Prime Minister Carney

00:00:40.460 talks about much more than just trading with China.

00:00:43.520 This is a deeper agreement, and that is what has people concerned.

00:00:48.260 Not only people here in Canada, but of course, the guy south of the border, Donald Trump.

00:00:54.180 If they do a deal with China, yeah, they'll do something very substantial.

00:00:57.180 Because we can't have a great relationship with China, President Xi,

00:01:01.060 but we don't want China to take over Canada.

00:01:03.820 And if they make the deal that he's looking to make, China will take over Canada. 0.67

00:01:10.280 And the first thing they're going to do, end ice hockey.

00:01:13.280 Mark Carney, meanwhile, will tell you that no,

00:01:15.360 it's not going to be a free trade agreement or anything such.

00:01:18.680 We have commitments under KUSMA that not to pursue free trade agreements

00:01:25.040 with non-market economies without prior notification.

00:01:28.240 We have no intention of doing that with China or any other non-market economy. 0.93

00:01:33.880 What we've done with China is to rectify some issues that developed in the last couple of years.

00:01:40.480 In many respects, we're going, to use the expression, back to the future with respect to EVs,

00:01:46.260 with respect to agriculture, with respect to fish products and other food products,

00:01:51.620 but with additional protections.

00:01:53.600 And yet, well, he did portray it as something much more than just a simple trade agreement

00:01:59.400 back when he announced it.

00:02:01.420 And to that end, President Xi and I are announcing that Canada and China

00:02:05.860 are forging a new strategic partnership.

00:02:09.200 It will focus on five key areas where both our nations stand to make substantial and sustained gains.

00:02:16.360 So what is the truth and what do we need to be concerned about?

00:02:20.200 To help us understand that, I'm turning to Sandra Watson-Parcells.

00:02:23.920 She is a Canadian who lived in China for many years

00:02:27.560 and is currently a PhD candidate in the Department of Defense Studies at King's College London.

00:02:32.920 She is an expert in analyzing China's economic and strategic goals.

00:02:38.340 Here is our conversation.

00:02:40.300 So, Sandra, you said a little while ago that Carney's proposed strategic partnership with China

00:02:45.700 represents a fundamental misreading of the current security environment.

00:02:50.860 This isn't about trade protectionism.

00:02:52.560 It's about recognizing asymmetric competition that's been underway for decades.

00:02:57.280 What do you mean by that?

00:02:58.820 And what do you and I and the other people that are skeptical of his deal with China not understand?

00:03:05.700 Right.

00:03:06.880 So, when I heard Carney speaking in Davos and shortly before that in China,

00:03:14.760 he used the word strategic partnership.

00:03:17.640 Now, strategic partnership is used in diplomacy.

00:03:23.300 But in the general purpose of strategic partnership, it goes beyond just trade.

00:03:31.100 Strategic partnership is about having a deeper relationship with states that have like-minded values.

00:03:39.020 So, for example, democracy, human rights, deeper defense strategy.

00:03:46.680 And that's something we're just never going to have with China. 1.00

00:03:49.020 So, when he says strategic partnership, from a defense and security perspective,

00:03:58.160 it's not really what it is.

00:04:01.860 It is a trade discussion.

00:04:05.700 It is limited interaction on specific trade concerns.

00:04:10.900 We should do business with China. 0.99

00:04:12.200 But the general definition of strategic partnership is much deeper.

00:04:20.080 And that's not something as, you know, as a Western country that we can do with China.

00:04:26.840 So, that stood out to me.

00:04:29.640 Well, and that's the part that I've been trying to help people understand.

00:04:34.920 Because the reply I will get is, but Donald Trump's going to China.

00:04:40.100 They're trading with China.

00:04:42.140 Everyone's trading with China.

00:04:43.360 We should trade with China.

00:04:44.620 And I keep saying, trade is not the issue.

00:04:48.000 It's everything else around it.

00:04:49.840 And when I looked at the joint announcement between Prime Minister Carney and President Xi Jinping,

00:04:59.880 there were things in there that made me pause, including, I know we've been doing it for a while now,

00:05:05.840 but the currency swap.

00:05:07.420 So, Canadian and Chinese businesses can settle, to a limited degree,

00:05:14.600 trade in local currency, in yuan or Canadian dollars.

00:05:18.540 They don't have to use the U.S. dollar as the global reserve currency.

00:05:24.800 Sure, we started this a long time ago, about a decade or so ago, and it is limited.

00:05:30.740 But one of the things the Americans are really concerned about now is keeping the U.S. dollar

00:05:35.380 as the reserve currency.

00:05:36.980 There's 76% of our trade.

00:05:39.160 Continuing that and saying we'll go deeper is going to be problematic come Kuzma negotiations.

00:05:47.260 Right.

00:05:47.780 And I think a lot of this has to do with terminology, with misusing terms in international relations,

00:05:55.080 such as trade, free trade, strategic partnership.

00:05:59.060 What do these mean?

00:06:00.320 When our government speaks, is it reality or is it rhetoric?

00:06:05.540 Is it poking the bear down south?

00:06:08.120 Or is it really strategic partnership?

00:06:10.600 Because if it is, that's a big concern for security.

00:06:13.600 I would hope that from a security perspective, our government could make it clear that when

00:06:21.460 we say strategic partnership, we're not saying, are we saying it?

00:06:29.140 Because I can't see it actually happening.

00:06:31.760 But we're not saying defense agreements.

00:06:34.580 We're not saying agreements on human rights.

00:06:38.540 I mean, how can we?

00:06:39.680 China has, you know, camps with minority Uyghurs, you know, in it. 0.99

00:06:45.020 So a lot of oppression in China of political prisoners.

00:06:48.240 We've had the two Michael situation.

00:06:50.580 So there's a lot of strategic partnership that we can never, you know, have with China.

00:06:57.660 So when our government says strategic partnership, they're really saying, I'm thinking, they're

00:07:04.400 saying trade negotiations.

00:07:06.480 So then why not just say that?

00:07:08.780 Right?

00:07:09.040 So that's where, for a lot of Canadians, what is happening?

00:07:12.800 And let's cut through the noise and what is actually happening?

00:07:18.320 What is the reality?

00:07:19.540 And what is the rhetoric?

00:07:20.680 You pointed out online that the Biden administration had great issues with China.

00:07:28.540 And this is something I've been trying to make people understand.

00:07:30.980 I mean, maybe they weren't paying attention over the last decade because the entire view

00:07:37.400 in Washington toward China, much like it has in Canada, but not to the same extent, has

00:07:43.120 shifted.

00:07:43.420 When I started going down to D.C. covering politics, it was a bipartisan consensus in favor

00:07:52.280 of deeper ties with China.

00:07:53.880 Now it's the exact opposite.

00:07:56.260 And so you were writing and you pointed out that the Biden administration had made several

00:08:00.320 moves to distance themselves from China, to see China as more of an adversary.

00:08:05.100 They, in fact, are the ones that brought about the EV 100% tariffs that we then matched.

00:08:11.520 Trump's rhetoric is just different.

00:08:14.720 Now, I want to read a paragraph of what you wrote.

00:08:16.700 You said, Trump's more confrontational approach, whatever its flaws, reflects the urgency of

00:08:21.820 this moment.

00:08:22.900 This window for preserving Western strategic advantage is narrowing.

00:08:27.760 U.S. hegemonic stability for all its imperfections underwrites Canadian security and prosperity.

00:08:34.380 First off, proof that you're an academic like Mark Carney, you're using hegemony or variants

00:08:39.740 thereof.

00:08:41.520 Most of the rest of us don't do that.

00:08:44.060 But let's talk about this.

00:08:47.600 The whole issue is about much more than trade.

00:08:50.840 It's about the strategic or the security and prosperity of the two countries.

00:08:57.140 China is using, for whatever people may think of how Donald Trump is doing things, and I've

00:09:02.860 been vocal, I don't agree with his tariffs, his trade war on Canada.

00:09:06.720 But China uses economics as a weapon far more than the Americans do, regardless of who's 0.81

00:09:17.460 president.

00:09:18.640 Witness the canola tariffs, not just now, but when the two Michaels were in jail, when

00:09:23.620 in 2017, in 2013, 14, I was talking to grain farmers the other day and canola farmers the

00:09:30.060 other day who told me, oh yeah, and back in 06 and 08 and on and on it goes.

00:09:35.040 China uses trade as a weapon to try and bring you into their sphere. 0.93

00:09:39.400 They do.

00:09:40.460 One thing in my research that I noticed almost a decade ago, and I don't think anybody was,

00:09:47.920 well, not anybody, but a lot of people weren't paying attention.

00:09:50.180 Um, like you said, uh, there was just a consensus, let's do business with China and not looking 0.78

00:09:57.060 at the risk is not looking deeper into what China, China was doing.

00:10:01.280 So China since, I mean, before Xi, but it's ramped up since Xi has used soft power to erode

00:10:11.480 our, our world order.

00:10:14.120 And we really didn't do much to counter it for quite a long time.

00:10:17.480 Um, and when I talk about the Biden administration, I think there was an awakening from, you know,

00:10:22.480 the United States, the West, Canada that, Hey, this is a problem and we need to counter

00:10:28.500 it.

00:10:28.780 So we saw, you know, the word decoupling, decoupling from doing trade with goods that

00:10:34.580 were, you know, dual, um, dual threat or, uh, dual purpose or, uh,

00:10:39.800 So something that could be both civilian and military.

00:10:42.720 And used for military or, or, or left us vulnerable, for example, you know, within, uh, pharmaceuticals,

00:10:49.580 right?

00:10:49.860 Let's say China makes a move we disagree with, but we are, we are depending on our medicines 0.92

00:10:55.660 to come from China.

00:10:56.680 So then we leave ourselves vulnerable to manipulation for them saying, you can't get involved in

00:11:02.200 this geopolitical situation or we're going to hold back.

00:11:04.900 So, so we saw that, we saw that during the pandemic, Sandra, where, uh, you know, uh, PPE

00:11:11.840 supplies were being held back.

00:11:13.740 And what, what did we all pledge to do?

00:11:16.520 Let's reshore.

00:11:19.020 Okay.

00:11:19.840 We, we have in some areas and to some degree, but we're still reliant on China.

00:11:25.860 Right.

00:11:26.520 So the idea was let's decouple.

00:11:28.560 Let's, let's, you know, if we want to buy some things from China, great.

00:11:32.880 But on the things where we become vulnerable, where it's a risk to our national security

00:11:38.300 for ourselves and for our allies, we need to diversify.

00:11:40.980 I think that's healthy.

00:11:42.220 I think do business with China, do trade, but we need to protect ourselves when it comes 0.98

00:11:46.140 to our national security.

00:11:47.380 So we started doing that.

00:11:48.920 So matching soft power with soft power, decoupling.

00:11:52.340 The problem is China has been doing this for decades and now we're going to start countering 0.99

00:11:57.620 in four or five years.

00:11:59.760 It's just not, the reaction is not fast enough and effective enough.

00:12:04.360 So Trump comes in and this is where I argue that strategically the Biden administration

00:12:11.600 and, and, and the Trump administration and the Trump administration before that, they

00:12:16.580 are the same.

00:12:17.540 They recognize China as an adversary. 0.93

00:12:20.060 They recognize the rise of China and the vulnerabilities. 0.99

00:12:23.360 They didn't do anything about it.

00:12:24.880 Then they began to introduce in soft power.

00:12:27.860 Then Trump comes in and goes, this isn't fast enough.

00:12:31.460 This isn't working.

00:12:32.380 China is growing exponentially.

00:12:33.920 We did nothing for a long time and, and ramps it up.

00:12:37.500 And like you said, we can argue about his style and his tactics, but that is the, you know,

00:12:45.020 the macro perspective of the geopolitical and national security concerns we have, you know,

00:12:50.420 as a Western country.

00:12:51.360 So this is where I come back to, to Biden.

00:12:54.880 So if we're having a trade disagreements with the United States, it needs to be outside

00:13:00.880 of our, of our security concerns.

00:13:04.800 Our concern, we are on the same side with the United States and our Western allies when

00:13:10.760 it comes to having to manage China's, uh, as an adversary, same with Russia, North Korea

00:13:16.600 and Iran, and we can't, you know, we can't play with that.

00:13:22.520 Now, Donald Trump brought in tariffs on Chinese products like Chinese steel.

00:13:28.740 Um, the Biden administration not only kept them in place, they, they increased them in

00:13:33.860 2024.

00:13:35.160 Uh, they saw that this needed to happen.

00:13:39.080 And I, I remember covering it at the time and it's quite frustrating for me that, and

00:13:46.460 anytime politicians lie and it becomes part of the official narrative because they're not

00:13:51.080 called on the lie, um, whether it was Doug Ford or Justin Trudeau, what made the U S

00:13:57.320 take their tariffs off of our steel?

00:13:59.800 Well, we put tariffs on their bourbon and their playing cards.

00:14:04.540 No, we came to an agreement to stop letting China dump their steel into Canada, polish it 1.00

00:14:10.980 once, put a made in Canada logo on it and ship it South.

00:14:14.720 Um, that's what we were doing.

00:14:17.100 And they warned us for about a year, stop letting Chinese steel into Canada this way.

00:14:24.260 You're allowing Chinese steel to be trans-shipped and we just refused to do anything.

00:14:29.800 In fact, it was the night before the Americans were imposing the tariffs when then finance

00:14:35.660 minister, Bill Morneau finally said, okay, we're going to do something, but they didn't

00:14:40.520 do it.

00:14:41.000 They just promised they'd do it.

00:14:42.360 Then we got the tariffs.

00:14:43.460 Then it was almost a year of, of fighting it and claiming that playing cards and bourbon

00:14:48.480 did it when both governments actually put out a joint statement saying that it was the,

00:14:53.060 uh, uh, you know, dealing with Chinese, uh, dumping. 1.00

00:14:57.100 Now they want to do it with other products and we seem to be willing to let them.

00:15:01.740 Are, are we just so addicted to trade with China that we'll ignore the fact that it will 0.98

00:15:07.020 harm our biggest trading partner?

00:15:09.320 Or is this, you know, I, I know you're more from a defense point of view, but is it just

00:15:13.640 domestic policy?

00:15:14.740 Like this is all mind boggling to me.

00:15:16.960 Um, we, we, we have a plan to diversify from China by working with our allies, including

00:15:24.480 the United States.

00:15:25.220 You just said that we work with South Korea, you know, Taiwan, Japan, the Philippines.

00:15:31.000 Um, I'm happy to see that, you know, the submarines with South Korean submarines.

00:15:35.980 Um, I'm happy to see that we have, um, what is it, the Charlottetown left today to go to

00:15:42.020 the Indo-Pacific to, to exercise a right of, uh, free, uh, you know, going, going along

00:15:49.360 the Taiwan Strait because Taiwan is a, is an independent country.

00:15:52.200 So we as allies, we have a better impact and much more effective impact against China, uh, 0.98

00:16:00.300 when we work together.

00:16:01.580 So right now we're really shooting ourselves in the foot by fighting with the United States

00:16:08.120 to the point where it's affecting our national security.

00:16:11.380 And then talking about things like, you know, strategic partnerships with China.

00:16:18.180 How far can we, and should we go then?

00:16:20.920 Um, is the reserve currency issue that I talked about earlier, um, local currency swaps, is that

00:16:30.100 an issue we should perhaps pull back from?

00:16:32.160 Should we, um, cut ties where, you know, you, you get the People's Liberation Army being involved,

00:16:39.620 such as the Winnipeg Biohazard Lab?

00:16:42.380 Um, you know, we seem to be blind to that for a long time.

00:16:46.100 How far, because these announcements all talk about different people to people ties.

00:16:51.180 They talk about cultural ties.

00:16:53.800 They go beyond trade, which is what China wants.

00:16:57.360 They want a deepening.

00:16:58.800 How far do we go?

00:17:00.820 What kind of trade should we have with China?

00:17:03.900 From a security perspective, trade with China.

00:17:07.300 But if it makes us vulnerable in any way, don't do it.

00:17:12.080 We have our allies.

00:17:13.320 We have our other Indo-Pacific partners that we can do business with.

00:17:17.640 We don't need to do business with China if it makes us vulnerable. 0.99

00:17:21.260 And it's, it's as simple as that.

00:17:23.640 You know, we don't need to be doing currency exchanges.

00:17:26.100 We don't need to be working in labs with China. 0.63

00:17:29.580 We can do that with the United States.

00:17:31.040 We can do that with the Japan. 0.99

00:17:32.140 We can do that with our European partners.

00:17:34.480 But if it leaves us vulnerable, why, why would we do it?

00:17:37.280 So, buy things like the cup that I'm drinking out of my water right now or the plastic mixing gold in my kitchen.

00:17:47.080 But, you know, avoid deepening ties in the way that China wants.

00:17:51.260 Sandra, when we come back, we're going to take a quick break.

00:17:55.000 But when we come back, I do want to dive into the EV issue.

00:17:57.780 And are they actually spy cars?

00:18:01.480 More in moments.

00:18:02.740 This is Tristan Hopper, the host of Canada Did What?

00:18:05.540 Where we unpack the biggest, weirdest, and wildest political moments in Canadian history you thought you knew and tell you what really happened.

00:18:13.840 Stick around at the end of the episode to hear a sample of one of our favorite episodes.

00:18:17.800 If you don't want to stick around, make sure you subscribe to Canada Did What?

00:18:22.640 Everywhere you get podcasts.

00:18:24.300 First of all, anyone who buys these cars, they won't be allowed to go to the U.S.

00:18:28.500 You know, cybersecurity.

00:18:30.320 I call it the spy car that they're bringing in.

00:18:32.800 And they won't be allowed to get over there.

00:18:35.420 I don't trust what the Chinese put in these cars. 1.00

00:18:38.220 Every time that Doug Ford says that Chinese EVs are spy cars, he actually gets laughed at.

00:18:44.700 I'm not joking about that, Sandra.

00:18:46.380 I've watched some of my colleagues in the media laugh and ridicule this idea that these Chinese EVs are spy cars.

00:18:53.180 But long before we put 100% tariffs on them, I had been hearing about this, the concerns raised around the security aspect of these cars.

00:19:02.400 Since then, we've had the British military, British defense contractors ban their employees from using them, or if they use them, they can't bring them to work.

00:19:11.040 They're told not to hook up their phones to them through Android Auto or Apple CarPlay.

00:19:17.560 The Israeli military had leases for their officers with Chinese electric SUVs that they have since nullified, moving away from them.

00:19:26.420 What is the reality, in your view, from a security and defense perspective, on Chinese electric vehicles?

00:19:34.160 And is it just the Chinese electric vehicles, or is it all of them?

00:19:38.700 So, it's a concern.

00:19:41.560 It's a concern, and it's real.

00:19:43.240 And the reason it's real is because these cars contain technology that can be used to spy on us.

00:19:55.320 I mean, they're essentially computers on wheels.

00:19:59.160 They've got, here, I've written it down here.

00:20:01.120 They've got cameras, microphones, sensors, GPS.

00:20:04.340 So, they can map sensitive sites, record audio, track patterns.

00:20:11.540 Also, Chinese state security requires that all of their companies hand them, cooperate with them when it comes to national security.

00:20:22.800 So, any vehicle, now, before the tariffs were put on, we did bring in tens of thousands of these EVs.

00:20:34.200 They were from mostly Tesla, from the Shanghai plant, Volvo, and Polestar.

00:20:40.660 Now, the problem isn't that they're not Chinese brands.

00:20:44.480 The problem is that they were made in China, and they have Chinese hardware and software.

00:20:47.720 And I know you mentioned Israel, and data from the cars was tracked going to Chinese servers without permission.

00:20:57.400 Can you imagine that, China being able to track the whereabouts of an Israeli military official or a Canadian military official?

00:21:06.220 Right.

00:21:06.520 And know where they are, know what their patterns are, what their commute to and from work is?

00:21:12.220 Mm-hmm.

00:21:12.840 That becomes a huge national security threat, doesn't it?

00:21:16.400 It is.

00:21:16.940 It is.

00:21:17.300 So, you mentioned, like, the UK put in restrictions.

00:21:20.560 I know Poland did, Israel did. 1.00

00:21:22.480 United States went further, and they have stopped Chinese and Russian hardware and software from being in the vehicles, any of them, in order to prevent those vulnerabilities.

00:21:36.040 So, when I see…

00:21:37.300 So, if they have Russian or Chinese software, you can't import them into the U.S., or you can't use them near defense installations?

00:21:46.920 Well, that's a good question.

00:21:47.760 I'd have to double-check.

00:21:48.920 Okay.

00:21:49.020 I think they were banned, but…

00:21:51.540 Yeah.

00:21:51.960 Yeah.

00:21:52.020 Yeah, I'd have to double-check that.

00:21:53.040 I mean, looking at what the Brits did, if you have one of these already, you're required to park two miles away from your office.

00:22:01.540 Yeah.

00:22:02.180 Yeah.

00:22:02.620 Which essentially says, don't bring the car to work, ever.

00:22:06.620 Yeah.

00:22:07.340 Yeah.

00:22:08.100 Yeah.

00:22:08.300 So, let's make them go to, you know, the data be sent to Canadian servers.

00:22:14.320 Let's restrict military and government individuals who park their vehicles at military bases and government facilities.

00:22:22.260 We have to put those restrictions in.

00:22:24.680 From what I've heard, we've done nothing.

00:22:27.120 Why?

00:22:27.600 I'm not sure.

00:22:28.120 Okay.

00:22:28.840 So, let me ask you about that.

00:22:30.240 You talked about servers.

00:22:31.720 If you can explain that in simple terms, because I've heard it described as the stack has to be domestically located, things like that.

00:22:40.860 That's, you know, not terms that most of us deal in.

00:22:44.000 So, what needs to happen?

00:22:47.840 We have to make sure that they're not transmitting or can't transmit back to China or that things are stored here because they're always updating.

00:22:56.000 I mean, I've got friends with Teslas and they love the fact that they get an alert on their phone.

00:23:01.320 They say yes and the software on their vehicle is updated.

00:23:06.800 We need to make sure that that's happening with Canadian or American servers.

00:23:10.980 Is that what you're saying?

00:23:12.420 Right.

00:23:12.720 So, the data that it's collecting doesn't go straight back to China.

00:23:20.400 That it has to be, it has to go to a Canadian server where there's, you know, what it does there and how they restrict it.

00:23:28.300 I don't know the details.

00:23:30.380 But I know it does prevent the vehicles from taking that data and the collected data from where they've been, you know, recording all of it and sending it directly back to the Chinese government.

00:23:41.320 So, we need those checks and balances in place to make sure that that doesn't happen.

00:23:46.360 I thought we would have learned all of this after a little company called Nortel that went under.

00:23:54.840 Nortel was a Canadian giant and I'm not saying that China helped bring it down, but they kind of stole all the technology, sent it back to China and then undermined Nortel.

00:24:06.820 It's not the only reason, but it's a major one.

00:24:08.780 And I've spoken to people who know about, so Nortel's former Ottawa headquarters out in Kanata, a company just went away.

00:24:19.600 The government bought the building.

00:24:20.960 They said this would be a great spot for national defense headquarters.

00:24:24.460 They had to tear it down to stud and it was filled with bugs and cameras and listening devices all over the place.

00:24:34.740 And we didn't learn then.

00:24:36.960 And then we didn't learn when Huawei was trying to come in and Huawei equipment, you know, the claim was having back doors that allowed data in Canada to be shuffled back to China, regardless of what they said.

00:24:47.940 And now we're having the same debate on Chinese EVs, even if they, you know, we're sending data to Canadian servers.

00:24:57.880 Can we trust them not to have the Huawei type back doors?

00:25:02.080 Right, right.

00:25:03.840 Yeah, these are really good questions and I don't see any of them being addressed.

00:25:07.580 What I find fascinating is, you know, I look up CSE and CSIS reports.

00:25:13.880 They're doing their job.

00:25:14.960 They're telling us that our greatest adversary and vulnerabilities come from China.

00:25:21.980 I mean, if you look at the CSE assessment for 2025-26, I have a quote here from them.

00:25:31.140 The People's Republic of China, China's expansive and aggressive cyber program presents the most sophisticated and active state cyber threat to Canada today.

00:25:40.720 Now, that's from their assessment, that's CSE's assessment for 2025-26.

00:25:48.080 That's clear.

00:25:50.420 CSIS is also giving us warnings.

00:25:53.040 We've had the report on interference.

00:25:56.780 So, I think our security establishments are doing a good job of seeing the threat and showing it to us and advising the government.

00:26:07.300 Where I'm not seeing it is translated into policy.

00:26:13.020 The issue of China in the Arctic is a similar one.

00:26:17.960 You know, this is something that I think the first time the Toronto Sun put it on the front page was during President Hu's 2010 visit.

00:26:31.320 And that's because one of my colleagues, David Akin, someone sent him or he came across a report in Chinese English language media, a government-controlled media outlet.

00:26:44.800 And a senior general, a head of Hu's visit, had given an interview where he talked about China being a near-Arctic nation.

00:26:55.280 And since they were 20% of the population, they were entitled to 20% of the resources in the Arctic.

00:27:03.160 And, of course, well, we consider the Arctic on this side ours, and Russia considers parts of it theirs, Norway, Denmark, et cetera, et cetera.

00:27:10.900 And that was 2010.

00:27:14.640 That's 15 years ago.

00:27:16.700 And that interview by the general was not an accident.

00:27:21.220 Those things don't happen in government-run Chinese media.

00:27:25.580 That was put there to send a message that I don't think we properly received.

00:27:30.560 And now we still have people ridiculing the idea that China wants anything to do with the Arctic or is poking around up there.

00:27:38.120 I think, you know, Prime Minister Carney, I'll give him credit.

00:27:40.000 He has acknowledged it.

00:27:42.060 But they are floating around Alaska, Nunavut, into Hudson's Bay, and around Greenland.

00:27:49.220 All of that is happening, correct?

00:27:51.540 Correct.

00:27:52.620 I don't understand the disconnect from the threats that we see in the Arctic and the ones we talked about.

00:28:04.300 And the government just not taking it seriously in activating policy that would, you know, help protect our national defense.

00:28:18.640 Why isn't there an Arctic base?

00:28:20.840 Why isn't there more personnel there?

00:28:23.240 You know, why?

00:28:24.040 More technology.

00:28:24.680 Yeah, exactly.

00:28:26.980 And I blame both governments.

00:28:29.520 I mean, both parties, all governments from World War II on.

00:28:33.320 We have neglected our own forces, equipment.

00:28:37.480 We have not kept up our own forces in a way that we can defend our own land.

00:28:42.620 And then we have rising powers like China.

00:28:44.580 We're not prepared.

00:28:45.280 So, Ukraine should have been a wake-up call. 1.00

00:28:49.500 And now there's continental war and war, kinetic warfare in continental Europe.

00:28:55.480 And we are implementing, I mean, we are increasing our spending.

00:29:00.920 But we should have been doing it all along, you know.

00:29:04.420 So, I don't see, I think for some reason there's a disconnect in when the armed forces or security services advise government.

00:29:18.060 They just, I think they think they're being alarmist and they don't take it seriously.

00:29:23.640 And that's concerning.

00:29:24.600 Well, Michelle Juno-Katsuya, a former CSIS agent, might tell you that they've been ignoring this since the Sidewinder report came out in, I think, 1997.

00:29:34.600 We've talked to Michelle about that in the past in terms of political interference and elite capture and the like. 1.00

00:29:44.300 Perhaps that's part of the reason why they haven't been acting.

00:29:47.460 But let me ask you this.

00:29:48.720 As we do look to rebuild the armed forces, as we do look to build infrastructure in the Arctic, something like Grey's Bay, the port in Nunavut, or Premier Wab Canoe in Manitoba talking about Churchill being there.

00:30:04.760 Should we look at having dual-use infrastructure so that if we are putting in a deepwater port in Churchill or Grey's Bay, I'd say we should do both of them and perhaps more.

00:30:15.280 Should they be not only commercial ports for exporting, should they have a military use as well for our submarines and such?

00:30:27.600 Absolutely.

00:30:28.660 Absolutely.

00:30:29.680 We have to stop thinking that national security and trade and economics are two separate silos.

00:30:36.340 They're not.

00:30:37.720 They're very intermingled.

00:30:39.280 Intermingled and right now we have to be more proactive at defending the Arctic.

00:30:48.100 And we also have to be more proactive at diversifying trade, expanding trade.

00:30:53.240 So when we do something like create a port, yes, we not only want to do trade, but we want to defend trade.

00:30:59.620 Right?

00:31:00.120 We have to defend our ability to trade.

00:31:02.160 So these things are together.

00:31:04.140 They're interconnected.

00:31:05.240 They should not be looked at separately.

00:31:06.940 I might argue that, well, to a degree, the Americans have been doing that, you know, with protecting shipping lanes and freedom of the seas for decades.

00:31:18.620 But the pivot that Donald Trump has made recently, as much as we don't like the aspects that hurt us, in his stance toward China and trade and geopolitics, is that he is doing what China has been doing for a while.

00:31:34.280 He said, okay, that's working for them.

00:31:36.860 They're coming at us with this.

00:31:38.600 Let's respond that way.

00:31:39.780 Whether it's, you know, whether it's, you know, the right tactic or not, that's open for debate.

00:31:44.280 But I would argue he's doing what China has been doing for a long time.

00:31:49.260 Yes.

00:31:49.920 I would say that we have to, we have to do both that China has. 0.98

00:31:54.060 But I think that every state should be, should be looking after economics and protecting it with national defense.

00:32:00.680 You know, national defense is, is fed by, by your economics and your trade and your trade can expand if you have security.

00:32:10.120 So I think it's just a healthy, you know, healthy policy.

00:32:15.240 Sandra, thanks very much for your time today.

00:32:17.680 Full Comment is a post-media podcast.

00:32:20.060 My name is Brian Lilly, your host.

00:32:21.520 This episode was produced by Andre Pru.

00:32:23.640 Theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:32:25.360 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:32:27.280 Please remember to hit subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast.

00:32:31.200 Leave a comment, share this on social media, and let your friends know about us.

00:32:34.800 Thanks for listening.

00:32:35.620 Until next time, I'm Brian Lilly.

00:32:43.160 Here's that clip from Canada Did What?

00:32:45.760 I promised you.

00:32:50.120 Castro would end up occupying a space in the Trudeau family similar to that of a beloved uncle.

00:32:55.800 They went diving.

00:32:57.640 They smoked cigars together.

00:32:59.540 They gathered sea urchins for beach cookouts.

00:33:02.560 Informal talks at an island hideaway intensified their respect for each other,

00:33:07.780 and their mutual enjoyment of skin diving added to the rapport.

00:33:11.680 In addition to a well-publicized 1976 summit meeting,

00:33:15.840 Trudeau took three separate vacations to visit Castro after his time in politics had ended.

00:33:20.840 I can make, you know, just one reference to Pierre Trudeau's sons to show the closeness of the relationship.

00:33:31.780 The nickname that the Trudeau's sons had for Fidel Castro was Papa Fidel.

00:33:36.720 So that gives you an indication of the closeness of the bond that existed between the communist dictator, you know, thorn in the side of every American administration for the past 50 years, and Pierre Trudeau.

00:33:52.660 When Trudeau's youngest son, Michel, died in an avalanche in 1998, Castro called the family in tears to express his condolences.

00:34:00.980 As an eight-year-old, Michel had referred to Fidel Castro as his best friend.

00:34:06.820 When Pierre died, Fidel declared three days of mourning in Cuba and flew to Montreal to act as an honorary pallbearer.

00:34:13.620 Every time Trudeau went down to Cuba, all the people in South Florida, you know, the exiles were thinking,

00:34:21.980 why is this Western leader giving comfort to a murderous dictator, you know, who is oppressing their people in Cuba and saying, you know, good things about Fidel Castro?

00:34:33.480 And as I've mentioned, to have him in the pew at Trudeau's funeral in the front row as a dignified person when he had been such a brutal leader says more about Pierre Trudeau than it does about Fidel Castro.

00:34:53.700 Here's where we should probably touch on what Castro had done and what he was continuing to do while going on beach vacations with the Trudeau family.

00:35:01.020 If you want to hear the rest of the story, make sure you subscribe to Canada Did What? everywhere you get your podcasts.

Full Comment - February 09, 2026

Carney's China deal is deeper and more dangerous than tariffs

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