Full Comment - Chef Michael Hunter fights for the ‘right to eat wild food’

00:00:00.000 hi i'm anthony fury thanks for joining us for the latest episode of full comment

00:00:09.620 don't forget to subscribe to learn whenever a new episode drops today's guest is chef michael

00:00:14.440 hunter co-owner of antler kitchen and bar he's a hunter he's a forager and his latest book

00:00:18.820 is the hunter chef hunt fish and forage in over 100 recipes if you're a fan of meat let me tell

00:00:25.120 you this episode is for you and if you're not a fan of meat well uh we'll be talking about you as

00:00:30.340 well michael thanks so much for joining us welcome to the show thanks for having me yeah it's great to

00:00:36.140 have you on let me start here i'm seeing a lot of headlines that well make me think that meat is

00:00:41.500 kind of under siege almost now more than ever what is your sense of that um there's definitely a trend

00:00:48.640 about plant-based foods and and um and products um you know i think under siege might be a bit

00:00:58.060 dramatic but i don't know you know i don't follow the meat news i guess as much as you do so um

00:01:05.500 i might be out of the loop yeah well well let me put a couple i guess questions to you because i know

00:01:11.180 you're focused on on doing what you do and then there are other people who are focused in you know

00:01:15.400 going in other directions here uh there was a headline in in bloomberg news other news outlets

00:01:20.020 saying that uh moving forward uh beef is going to be considered a luxury item this is the head of a

00:01:25.580 big european meat processor speaking and he said beef is not going to be super climate friendly so the

00:01:31.340 basic idea about emissions and taxes and so forth what are your thoughts as someone who who cooks a

00:01:36.860 whole lot of meat uh obviously you know your recipes in your cookbook and your restaurant as well

00:01:41.240 uh what what do you think when you when you hear that sort of news um you know in in the restaurant

00:01:47.960 industry i can definitely tell you that i have seen the uh the meat prices climbing um you know i think

00:01:54.860 that has uh a wide range of factors um you know increasing costs of of uh fuel grain uh labor um you know

00:02:06.520 some of these main things are really driving the cost up um you know i i i do think our system is a little

00:02:15.980 broken um you know our focus has been on you know factory farming um you know animal products and

00:02:25.600 vegetable products so you know i think really the factory farming industry is being attacked um you know

00:02:32.980 on the meat side and um you know the the idea of replacing it with um you know plant-based products

00:02:42.480 that are also factory farmed i don't think is the answer either hmm so you're talking about the beyond

00:02:48.100 meat type products i know there's been a lot of discussion of oh well hold on a second this is still

00:02:52.420 processed food and the talk about the degree of of salt and other content that's in it yes

00:02:58.940 so when you talk about about your approach to meat in general in your cookbook what you're doing in

00:03:05.700 your kitchen how would you articulate your philosophy of of i i don't know if the carnivore diet is the

00:03:11.580 right way to phrase it but what is your general approach uh to meat and sustainability with meat and

00:03:18.040 and just meat as a culinary experience um i think there needs to be more of a focus on you know getting

00:03:26.640 back to the family run sustainable farm um you know a lot of my diet at home is wild food uh a lot of

00:03:36.900 that is hunted meat um and wild fish um but we also have a pretty large uh vegetable garden for living in

00:03:46.480 um the city of toronto um you know we you know we're in uh you know the northwest part of the city

00:03:52.940 um you know we don't have a huge backyard but you know uh i'd say maybe a quarter of my backyard is

00:03:59.260 taken up by garden so um you know i know a lot of people that live in buildings don't have that luxury

00:04:05.220 um but i think there needs to be more of a focus on um you know growing your own food um you know

00:04:15.360 focusing on um on food that is sustainably grown whether that's in a farm

00:04:21.180 uh or sustainably fished um you know or or sustainably harvested um you know from the wild

00:04:28.860 uh and you know move away from factory farming because i think it's it's factory farming as a

00:04:34.600 whole that's that's creating um you know a lot of these um you know environmental problems and

00:04:41.800 and other problems in our society i mean you're really talking about sustainability issues

00:04:47.300 and yet you have had people who have protested you you have activists protest outside your

00:04:52.940 restaurant because of your commitment to cooking with meat and yet what i'm hearing from you is a

00:04:57.860 very sort of moderate approach uh to involving meat in the diet i guess these are people who are

00:05:04.900 just flat out opposed to eating meat in general here but but one would think there's a bit of a

00:05:09.320 middle ground i mean you seem to be talking about almost a middle ground here um you know and i think

00:05:14.680 that the people protesting my restaurant were not interested in having an intellectual dialogue

00:05:18.660 with me right um even though we offered that on several occasions um you know because they they had

00:05:25.940 one agenda and they weren't interested in any discussions about um you know other alternatives or

00:05:32.860 ways to meet in the middle it was uh you know go vegan or go home um and you know for me that

00:05:41.300 doesn't inspire uh change it didn't inspire um you know really anyone to join their cause uh and for

00:05:49.080 them which they learned it it uh created the opposite effect and turned you know most people against

00:05:54.900 them so um you know if they wanted to talk about uh you know animal rights reform when it came came to

00:06:02.500 farming or uh you know slaughterhouses and abattoirs and uh you know government policies around the

00:06:08.420 treatment of animals you know i would have uh supported their cause but um when they try and

00:06:14.340 force the whole world to to you know have a vegan diet um that is you know sustained from

00:06:21.340 sustained uh factory farming and monocropping things like soy and um using palm oil and things that are

00:06:28.340 really destructive for the planet um you know i kind of think they're pretty misguided yeah that's

00:06:33.600 interesting so this happened back in 2018 and it was something of a something of a bit of a

00:06:37.380 cultural moment i would say at least people who live in the gta would go oh yeah i remember that

00:06:41.400 it was sort of in the news and there's a lot of headlines vegans came to protest uh your restaurant

00:06:46.040 antler and then you weren't going to put up with it so when you knew they were coming you sort of

00:06:49.900 uh very uh very elaborately carved meat right in the front window and they had to be visually

00:06:55.980 subjected to it and i guess that was triggering for them and and one one phrase that you said in one of

00:07:00.480 those stories as i was rereading it really speaks out to me you said we won't change meaning well

00:07:04.840 i'm still going to do this i don't care if you guys are protesting and well i know the pandemic

00:07:09.000 has been very difficult for restaurants we'll talk about that in a few minutes but in general it seems

00:07:12.980 like you haven't changed you're still there you're still standing people are still coming to the

00:07:16.500 restaurant um you know we really believe in what we do and we think we're doing the right thing

00:07:23.480 um uh we buy you know all of our products uh from little suppliers to family-run farms um you know

00:07:33.260 canadian companies it's it's very important to us um and it's what we believe in and um you know

00:07:40.100 we're we're passionate about it we we try and do it you know uh the best we can um you know and it's

00:07:46.680 it's proving to work for us tell me a little bit more about what you're saying there about about

00:07:51.720 soy based items and so forth that are actually uh not so great for the system not so great for the

00:07:57.480 planet the certain things that are connected with a vegan diet um well i'm not an expert on the

00:08:02.560 subject i've done a little bit of uh you know reading and you know my own research on it um but

00:08:07.840 you know monocrop farming uh is proven to be bad for the environment when you take you know hundreds of

00:08:14.400 thousands or you know millions of acres uh and cover it with the same type of plant um it's bad

00:08:21.740 for the environment and um you know old practices of farming uh you know utilizes crop rotations and

00:08:30.140 you know smaller uh plots of farms that are constantly being rotated and you know fertilized

00:08:35.640 with natural products um and you know when you monocrop uh you know large services of land you

00:08:44.780 come in contact with all kinds of uh you know horticultural problems with uh insects um and they

00:08:51.680 need to use um pesticides and um you know all kinds of uh you know growth hormones and for chemical

00:08:59.540 fertilizers for the plants and things like that um so it's just my understanding that um you know

00:09:05.020 these types of of farming methods that are being utilized to create um you know soy based products

00:09:11.040 and and and uh these you know alternative proteins um is actually you know bad for the environment and

00:09:18.040 like i said i'm not i'm not an expert on the subject but i know a little bit about it and um you know

00:09:22.960 i don't think that a complete switch um you know to to to factory farming um you know vegetable

00:09:30.980 products for alternative proteins is really the best answer either michael what's your sense of

00:09:36.460 what the state of hunting foraging is across ontario across canada when it comes to people doing it to

00:09:43.760 provide uh food for themselves um i'd have to look at the statistics but what i i have heard that

00:09:50.500 statistically the numbers of new hunters um is going up um there are there is numbers available with the

00:09:59.040 um uh miniature ministry of natural resources uh where we could get exact numbers but um from what i

00:10:06.240 understand the um the number of new hunters wanting to get their hunting license is on the rise

00:10:11.820 um i think the pandemic uh created a lot of awareness for people um to really kind of uh get more concerned

00:10:21.020 about where their food is coming from and what they would do if our supply chains collapsed um you know

00:10:27.060 you saw with the you know the toilet paper buying frenzy people wanted security um you know it was a

00:10:32.940 psychological thing that people wanted some security um with you know they heard toilet paper was running

00:10:39.220 out and uh another thing that you couldn't purchase at the store was um glass canning jars with the metal

00:10:45.460 twist lid uh for preserving you know peaches and tomato sauce and canned goods uh to can at home uh it was

00:10:54.020 almost impossible to find these jars because people were uh frantically buying things to preserve food

00:11:00.260 um so i think there there definitely is a shift um you know back to um where we came from which is

00:11:10.020 hunting and gathering i think people are a bit more interested in it um you know mushroom foraging

00:11:14.800 is becoming really popular um there's all kinds of uh you know social media groups and clubs that are

00:11:20.440 popping up uh you know on facebook and sites like that where you can uh you know just join up uh sign

00:11:26.240 up to learn about um foraging um you know it's it's in the restaurant industry i've i've seen it with

00:11:33.580 other restaurants in toronto at least um you know a lot more focus on uh wild game ingredients um and

00:11:41.300 foraged uh mushrooms wild leeks um you know people are really seem to be uh moving back towards wanting to

00:11:49.000 uh uh you know be a part of uh you know their their food cycle in what way do you think this

00:11:56.020 is something that that can be broad-based and in what way is it a sort of boutique niche thing that

00:12:01.260 that that only you know a certain type of person can take up one thing that i find really interesting

00:12:06.420 we have a couple jamie oliver cookbooks at home and i was really intrigued to learn about how he's

00:12:10.880 really big on the movement of just getting people in england i guess people everywhere in the world but

00:12:14.320 particularly england saying you know we want you know regular folks of all walks of life all income

00:12:19.060 brackets all jobs learning how to cook healthy basic meals at home and i gotta say as someone who

00:12:24.720 is not a very good cook i'm like this is kind of cool like i i find it not intimidating to get one of

00:12:30.420 those four ingredient cookbooks and work your way up and just kind of learn and and i find it kind of

00:12:35.460 empowering and so forth and i feel like jamie oliver feels he's made some momentum on that but you know

00:12:39.960 it's still a a difficult push how is that situation unfolding do you think in canada um like i said i

00:12:47.780 think i think people are really becoming more interested about where their food's coming from

00:12:51.360 i think um you know with uh the pandemic and an illness that's out there i think people might be

00:12:57.140 focusing more about uh eating healthier and living a healthier lifestyle um you know i think as a chef

00:13:04.040 um we're always searching for you know for the best tasting ingredients to start with and um it makes

00:13:12.300 my job a lot easier if i'm starting out with uh you know an amazing tasting uh tomato um you know

00:13:19.300 that's grown in ontario or grown in my backyard uh that's ripened in the sun and has never been in

00:13:24.980 the fridge it is is you know wonderfully sweet versus something that's uh you know pale pink and

00:13:30.600 you know ripened on a truck uh from mexico to toronto so um i i think you know um for people

00:13:39.520 that that are you know new to cooking or learning to cook or you're not as confident in the kitchen

00:13:45.240 i think uh you know starting with you know really great ingredients um in the beginning is is a great

00:13:52.520 help um to making your food taste good because you have to do little you know you don't have to do a lot

00:13:57.800 to it right right michael i want to go back to something you were saying about about hunters

00:14:02.180 hunters in ontario hunters across canada because when you mentioned vegans protesting your restaurant

00:14:06.720 you said well i'm not so sure if they were actually interested in having sort of a moderate

00:14:09.680 conversation and when you talk about hunters i also think of guys with guns guys with guns going

00:14:15.480 out into the woods firing guns and you also go hold on a second that itself is a conversation that

00:14:20.960 gets very heated politicized it it always factors into canadian federal elections it did the last time

00:14:25.860 around and very similar perhaps around what you're saying about the vegan versus meat you can have

00:14:30.660 guns versus anti-guns and yet you were simply talking about hunting culture which invariably

00:14:36.020 you know a lot of it will involve uh firearms as as sustainability and you know being aware of uh you

00:14:43.060 know what you're putting into your body in terms of where you're sourcing your food from and so forth

00:14:46.420 how does that all factor into this i mean what would you say to people who right away just say no guns

00:14:52.080 and that is how they kind of uh put the wall up with that conversation um it's hard to have those

00:14:57.940 conversations with people that that don't want to have the conversation there's um you know especially

00:15:04.500 people in cities uh they don't like guns uh because guns are the root of a lot of the violence that's in

00:15:10.560 the city right um you know the thing that a lot of people don't understand is that um the violence

00:15:16.960 that's happening in the city with with guns uh is gun crime and uh these guns are being obtained

00:15:23.660 through illegal sources um and a lot of people don't actually know uh how strict our gun control

00:15:30.440 is in canada for for guys like me that want to go out and you know buy a shotgun to hunt uh ducks and

00:15:36.560 geese or to buy a rifle to go shoot a deer um it's it's a very uh difficult process to go through

00:15:43.420 um so i think you know really uh highlighting you know what our licensing system is like in canada

00:15:51.120 um and you know talking to people about you know what i need to do to obtain a firearms license

00:15:57.600 is quite rigorous um but you know people that don't want to have the conversation just believe

00:16:03.580 guns are bad it's hard to educate those people and have an intellectual dialogue because they just

00:16:08.740 don't want to hear it guns are bad um and you know that's how they feel and and not you know not a

00:16:14.100 lot will will change that i think um you know until until something's done about the gun crime that's

00:16:19.480 that's in this country um you know the licensing system you know i think it'd be interesting to talk

00:16:24.900 about a little bit um uh you have to take a firearms training and safety course and it's it's a

00:16:31.040 one day course um where it's a written and practical test in front of an instructor uh for

00:16:39.460 safety and you need to know all the laws about you know storage transportation um there's handling of

00:16:46.120 the firearms working with an instructor proving that you are safe and can handle a firearm um

00:16:51.320 and then there's the actual application so once you pass these two tests you get an application to

00:16:56.900 take home uh you fill out you need uh references um you know someone that's known you for several

00:17:03.100 years um you actually need your spouse to sign off on your application and put your phone number

00:17:08.820 um and if you live alone uh you have to list uh a previous spouse or you know husband or you know

00:17:16.680 boyfriend or girlfriend um and lists their phone number in the last two years lots of hoops to jump

00:17:23.280 through and lots of hoops and from my experience the rcmp actually call your spouse or call your

00:17:28.360 uh you know ex-wife or girlfriend uh and speak to them and you know until you go through all these

00:17:33.920 processes you can't get a firearms license um and without a firearms license you can't go into a

00:17:39.420 store or and even look at and the firearms or hold them and and you know let alone try and even

00:17:44.940 purchase one so um you know i think there needs to be a lot of uh education and awareness around

00:17:51.900 firearms licensing in canada um for people to actually you know understand um you know what's

00:17:58.200 going on and and and the fact that you know the crime that's in toronto and you know canada really

00:18:04.840 needs to be addressed um to solve the issues because you know creating more laws for guys like me

00:18:11.880 um and it's not really it's not helping and statistically it's showing that it's not helping

00:18:16.600 our gun crime in the city one interesting other sort of curious confluence of issues is that when

00:18:22.360 it comes to a lot of hunting uh a lot of first nations people throughout the country a lot of

00:18:28.200 indigenous persons uh they like to do different uh ways of sourcing their meat which again kind of

00:18:33.620 butts up against people's perspectives towards uh hunting and you know other political issues as

00:18:38.100 well do you have any thoughts on on on how first nations in canada are going about uh procuring their

00:18:43.200 meat no i you know i think that you know i use a lot of the same methods that uh you know uh

00:18:49.540 indigenous cultures are using for hunting now i also hunt with a bow and arrow uh crossbow um i use

00:18:56.240 shotguns and rifles and and things like that to uh to source my meat um and you know it's you know 0.77

00:19:04.780 historically um you know we're all descendants of hunters and i think it is you know foolish um to

00:19:13.040 think that hunting is is bad and we need to stop hunting and um you know it has you know uh you

00:19:20.520 know traditional and historical kind of values that uh um i i think you know need to be cherished and

00:19:26.740 and held on to as opposed to um you know pushed away that's a really interesting way of looking at

00:19:32.160 it when you talk about uh going out and getting your own meat is this just for personal consumption

00:19:36.240 or is this some of the meat that your customers uh eat at antler no so it's actually illegal for me to

00:19:43.680 sell meat uh that i've hunted myself so no way um there's some public health laws around that and

00:19:49.660 then there's also um uh laws uh against the sale of uh wild game what do you think about that because

00:19:58.060 just uh recently for thanksgiving weekend we had a brisket that came from a cow we were up at a rural

00:20:04.060 property that came from a cow that had been across the street now of course the proper i'm gonna get

00:20:09.240 my terms wrong but the proper abattoir stuff was done and i know there's rules and protocols and

00:20:12.940 it happened and so forth but then the meat was shared with us and we ate the meat and it's also

00:20:16.600 kind of like okay and what if it had happened to have been a restaurant and you know we charge for

00:20:20.700 all of that and so forth i mean i i find that kind of odd like it's nice to know there's rules that

00:20:26.100 someone just can't randomly you know get any roadkill they find and slap it on a table and so forth but

00:20:31.200 you're also a professional so i would think that surely there should be a framework where

00:20:35.420 uh if you i don't know if you want to but a framework where you could actually provide the

00:20:39.760 meat that you've hunted for customers yeah and i think you know for me um that would that would be

00:20:45.380 something i would i would love to do um you know there needs to be a lot of regulations in place to

00:20:49.860 make sure um that uh it's you know it would be sustainable and um you know a big part of uh of

00:20:57.380 hunting is conservation and making sure that um you know the wildlife animals that were

00:21:03.240 hunting and and consuming they're there for our kids uh for the next generation um 1.00

00:21:08.980 you know there are places in the world where you can hunt uh and sell meat uh you know europe for

00:21:14.600 example um newfoundland in our own country you're allowed to um you know shoot a moose and and sell it

00:21:20.180 in the restaurant um uh it's you know it's something that you know i would like to see happen

00:21:26.180 in ontario um but it would need a lot of of uh of regulations and and i think a little bit of

00:21:32.980 research to to figure out you know the best way to implement it um you know because i think everyone

00:21:38.600 has the right to eat wild food whether it's uh wild salmon uh you know wild mushrooms these things

00:21:44.640 are available for sale um and you know unless you are a hunter or a friend of a hunter like i can gift

00:21:52.300 wild game meat to a friend or family member um but you know if you don't have a direct connection

00:21:58.540 to a hunter um you really can't you can't find wild game anywhere so i think i think people have a right

00:22:05.720 uh you know to be able to eat you know wild food in its natural state um but i i just think there

00:22:12.240 needs to be uh you know a lot of rules and regulations around how that would happen one of

00:22:16.040 my colleagues said you're talking to michael hunter you gotta ask what he thinks about all this craze

00:22:20.120 of eating bugs and i said what do you mean there's not a craze of eating bugs and he said yes people

00:22:23.820 are trying to get us to eat it every single day there's a mad push for it i said no there's not

00:22:26.980 he said google news at google and i said okay fine and i found out just in the past couple days

00:22:31.020 uh michael i see bbc headline the edible insects coming to a supermarket near you and then there's an

00:22:36.600 opinion column uh more people are eating bugs but is it ethical to farm insects for food

00:22:41.500 and i got to wondering eating bugs i mean i'm sure the vegans aren't doing it but it's also not

00:22:46.120 what you think of when you think of a meatatarian you know they don't have the the mcbug yet at

00:22:50.360 mcdonald's what is your perspective on eating insects um i don't have any interest in it to be honest

00:22:58.480 with you it's uh good me too it uh it you know it seems like a trendy fad kind of a diet um you know

00:23:08.560 is it going to solve world hunger i don't know it's um you know is it a great source of protein

00:23:14.620 that uh you know could definitely help aid um you know maybe some uh some areas of the world that

00:23:20.240 need protein um you know maybe i i don't know um but it's definitely not something that i'm

00:23:25.940 passionate about or um you know even i'm interested in you know i've i've eaten it like a crispy barbecue

00:23:33.480 kind of flavored grasshopper that kind of tastes like potato chips but um you know it was more of

00:23:38.680 a kind of a joke uh kind of a gift or something but um you know it it's not something that i'm

00:23:44.560 you know interested or passionate about let's talk about the pandemic now covid19 how it affected

00:23:50.400 your restaurant specifically how it's affecting the restaurant industry and perhaps the future of it i

00:23:55.860 know you've been vocal on this vocal on social media talking to media outlets about it

00:23:59.900 obviously march 2020 things were shut down your business was closed by order of government for

00:24:04.780 quite some time and by some indicators well i know ontario where you're based has had some of the

00:24:10.140 strictest covid rules really in the world uh depending on you know particular parameters

00:24:14.700 and yet we're in october 2021 and and your business actually still faces some restrictions what has the

00:24:21.500 past year and a half been like for you um it's been absolutely devastating um you know emotionally

00:24:28.300 mentally um you know from a physical standpoint of the restaurant devastating um it uh it has just

00:24:36.460 been an absolute nightmare um you know i never thought i would see the day where uh you know the

00:24:44.380 government steps in and tells us we can't run our business and and make a living um so i'm i'm uh you

00:24:50.920 know beyond frustrated with uh the ontario government um and its treatment of the restaurant industry

00:24:57.020 um you know to this day uh you know the current news that uh sports venues are opening back up to full

00:25:04.300 capacity and the restaurants within these sports venues in the air canada center and skydome are able

00:25:10.860 to open to full capacity but my restaurant uh on dundas that seats 45 people is limited to half capacity

00:25:18.860 um you know we cannot make a living off 22 seats um and it is just uh you know frustrating uh you know

00:25:30.380 beyond belief it's really quite something that the restaurant industry in ontario in particular so

00:25:36.460 hard hit for so long and i know there were moments when people thought uh there would be uh breakthroughs

00:25:41.340 and so forth the government turns around and they say well no we we did we did well by always telling

00:25:46.460 people oh order takeout and go do pickup and get delivery and so forth support local and so forth

00:25:53.020 did you feel like that helped our takeout sales um were a fraction of our uh in-house you know dining

00:26:03.260 room sales i don't um i think people are willing to spend the same kind of money they are uh for takeout

00:26:11.740 that they are when they go out um alcohol uh you know takeout alcohol sales was uh almost non-existent

00:26:20.060 um you know because of our you know liquor laws i have to buy uh you know spirits from the lcbo

00:26:29.900 um as a restaurant i don't get a discount you know a volume discount or uh you know any kind of a

00:26:35.660 discount as a restaurant buying liquor from the lcbo um so then to try and uh mark it up to make a

00:26:42.220 living um you know nobody wants to spend more for alcohol when they can get it for cheaper at the lcbo so

00:26:49.740 um you know that didn't really work um you know there are some wines that we can buy directly from the

00:26:56.780 that's not available at the lcbo which we tried to push um but you know we're not moving the same

00:27:03.020 volume um that we would if people were dining in-house um you know for us game is not something

00:27:12.140 people cook at home i think you know that's one of the reasons why we're so successful and busy at

00:27:16.380 the restaurant is because game is something that you know people don't cook at home and it's it's it's

00:27:21.260 something kind of new that they can't they can't get it home and that's why they come to antler so

00:27:26.060 um you know uh take out you know stuff for for people to take home just for us wasn't um i don't

00:27:33.420 think was as popular um and it yeah it definitely you know when we looked at our sales it was literally

00:27:42.540 like um uh you know like a tenth of our of our sales um you know pre-pandemic you know versus takeout sales

00:27:52.060 perspectives have been so varied this past year and a half there are some people who have basically

00:27:55.900 said uh you know they wanted things to be open for it to basically be you know buyer beware make

00:28:01.260 your own informed choice choice i certainly lean towards that you know okay if people feel they

00:28:05.500 need to stay home they can stay home and let other people uh make their sort of shopping and culinary

00:28:10.540 choices uh informed and and you know take personal responsibility and i understand there'll be

00:28:15.420 precautions in place so i was supportive of of restaurants and all facilities being open much

00:28:20.140 sooner and much larger other people saying oh no you know we can't do it it's not safe and i even saw

00:28:24.460 people in the restaurant industry were of were of split view i understand there were people

00:28:28.300 restaurateurs who were didn't even want to open their own restaurants and so forth and you go okay

00:28:32.220 find each to their own yeah how did you feel about just the the timing of it all because i appreciate

00:28:37.740 you're still frustrated with those capacity restrictions right now and i get you they're completely

00:28:41.340 indefensible i don't know why the government's doing that at the same time uh there were periods where

00:28:46.060 people were really split on all of it what would you have liked to have seen happen uh differently

00:28:52.220 um well for me i think it really started with our federal government um i was in saudi arabia uh

00:29:00.780 cooking with a friend um for a festival when when covid hit and i was just completely shocked by the

00:29:10.460 lack of action by our government um when i landed in saudi arabia at the end of february um 2019 i

00:29:19.820 was greeted with temperature checks uh a vigorous passport check of the countries i had been the

00:29:25.820 reasons i was traveling why i was there um there were police checkpoints when i was leaving the airport

00:29:34.220 it was very strict all for coven this was all for covert measures and this was just at the end of

00:29:40.220 february so this wasn't even march um you know when it was really full-blown um when i got back to

00:29:47.020 canada i think i arrived about a week before the uh shutdown and quarantine measures when i got back to

00:29:53.100 canada uh i think it was march 10th or somewhere around there um uh there was zero uh covert measures at the

00:30:02.620 airport at uh yyz pearson other than a piece of paper with a checkmark box uh that said have you been

00:30:09.740 to wuhan china so um i think there was uh you know a massively delayed uh covid response in canada for

00:30:21.740 travelers i think we let a lot of the uh cases in uh you know with open arms at our border um i think uh

00:30:30.220 you know the length it took for us to procure vaccines was really uh uh played a part in why we

00:30:38.620 were shut down for so long um you know did the lockdowns work do we need lockdowns um you know it's

00:30:48.700 a really complicated issue i'm not a medical expert um all i can say is that you know really hurt our business

00:30:54.220 and would you have stayed open if there hadn't been lockdowns if the government had said okay

00:30:59.340 maybe you should maybe you shouldn't that some restaurants were closing sort of voluntarily

00:31:02.860 what would you have done yeah no 100 i would have i would have uh wanted to stay open okay um you know

00:31:09.580 i think you know the safety measures we put in place with uh you know sanitizing uh masks um

00:31:18.460 you know the the plexiglass barriers and divider we put up um you know i i i think that would have

00:31:25.180 kept uh our diners safe um you know especially if you're dining out with members from your old household

00:31:32.140 um you know i don't know what the difference is um you know from going to the store um to buy groceries

00:31:39.100 versus going to a restaurant to sit down and have a meal um you know for for me i i i i would have

00:31:46.940 preferred to have stayed open right now restaurants and and all other locations that are uh relevant

00:31:53.820 to the vaccine passport that have to have the vaccine passport in place they are the ones who

00:31:58.620 are tasked with enforcing this when asking people show your papers as the saying goes i've definitely

00:32:03.980 heard from some places i i was in a i was in a fast food restaurant with my kid i won't name the

00:32:08.460 specific place or location um but the the lady who was tasked with enforcing these duties and this is 0.93

00:32:14.140 one of the world's largest restaurant chains uh she did not ask people for passports and i heard

00:32:18.700 her talking to some regulars and she said you know i used to love my job uh you know i'd see everyone's

00:32:22.940 smiles and so forth and now i just it's awful and i have to badger people for this and that nobody likes

00:32:27.900 and so forth and she just wasn't asking for it and so forth i found that really telling i mean there's

00:32:32.380 clearly a lot of frustration from people about about basically uh michael you and your employees tasked

00:32:38.540 with being the cops on this it's i think it's awful um you know i think the the treatment of you know

00:32:47.340 people's rights is is uh really scary um i don't i don't think it's fair that the restaurant industry

00:32:54.460 again is being forced uh to implement this uh and police it um and staff it you know it requires uh

00:33:03.180 another staff member being paid to stand at the door to look at people's vaccine papers um and the

00:33:10.940 government is not supporting that they're not paying for that but they're making the restaurant

00:33:15.740 industry pay for it um you know literally so um you know i i myself am vaccinated um you know i take

00:33:25.580 medical advice from my doctor um and not politicians so um you know it was my choice and my family's

00:33:32.620 choice to to get the vaccine um you know i'm i'm sympathetic to people that maybe don't want it

00:33:38.540 um you know and maybe they have health reasons or medical reasons or religious reasons whatever they

00:33:43.260 are um you know i i think you know we we need to honor those freedoms that that you know people have

00:33:51.180 or should have um so it's it's kind of scary and you know before the vaccine passport you know we were

00:33:58.300 our vaccination rates were in the 80s so you know i think um yeah i think i think it's overkill um

00:34:05.820 i just saw in the news today that uh there's four or five hundred cases in toronto uh of people that

00:34:13.260 have covid uh and 130 of them are back double vaccinated so um you know whether these vaccines are

00:34:22.540 working or not um you know i guess time will tell but it's it was kind of surprising for me to see

00:34:27.980 um that you know out of 500 cases 130 of them are double vaccinated which doesn't make me feel very

00:34:33.340 good but um you know i guess time will tell us to what's going to happen in the future one thing

00:34:38.780 that's frustrated a lot of people is that technically restaurant staff and i won't just put this on

00:34:43.100 restaurants other facilities that have to do the vaccine passport their employees and staff

00:34:49.340 technically do not need to be vaccinated so don't need it you can walk into work and you can

00:34:54.140 be in the environment for a whole eight hour day or ten hour shift or what have you you're not

00:34:58.540 vaccinated yet for somebody to come in and you know have a quick uh app and cocktail or what have you

00:35:03.340 they got to show the papers and i know there's a split opinion i mean my perspective would be well if

00:35:07.100 the employees don't have to do the passport i don't have to do the passport and then the other

00:35:11.020 perspective is there's some people going oh no i can't go into a restaurant because i don't know the

00:35:15.020 status of the employees you know i think that if people are nervous about going out they should stay

00:35:21.740 home and uh you know um that's just uh the way i feel i think it's ridiculous that uh you know there

00:35:30.460 are laws about people needing to be vaccinated to go into a restaurant and then the staff in that

00:35:35.180 restaurant don't need to be vaccinated it's ridiculous uh i'm not saying that i think our staff

00:35:39.660 actually be vaccinated uh by any means but you know what what's really showing is these laws don't

00:35:45.180 make sense and i don't think there is a lot of science behind some of these laws um i think

00:35:50.620 governments are trying to make it look like they're doing something uh without actually having to do

00:35:54.780 anything one of the things i find though is is once you once you actually get into the establishment

00:36:00.300 whatever it is you know you're watching the kids hockey game you're at the movie theater uh you're

00:36:04.300 at the restaurant i find most people are actually pretty chill i know public polling says yes they support

00:36:08.380 this yes they support that and so forth but it's also like people are relaxed and i wonder if the

00:36:13.900 people who are freaking out saying why aren't the restaurant staff vaccinated i mean you know to your

00:36:17.660 point maybe those people should stay home and maybe they're just this sort of extreme vocal

00:36:21.420 minority who who make disproportionate social media posts i mean how have you found it uh reopening

00:36:27.020 the restaurant after the latest uh you know reopening several months ago um has you know has it been

00:36:32.540 a positive atmosphere people just been showing up and you know having drinks and happy to be there

00:36:38.380 yeah it's great and um you know people are very happy to be there and and um you know there's

00:36:44.300 there's a lot of uh there's a lot of kind of jokes and laughter around uh you know people finally

00:36:51.180 getting out of the house and going out for dinner so um you know we found it's been very positive and

00:36:56.620 and a lot of fun uh you know reopening um you know a lot of the uh pandemic kind of problems that we

00:37:04.060 haven't touched about is is uh staff right a lot of our staff all of our staff that we had pre-pandemic

00:37:11.500 left the city uh our general manager and his wife moved home to halifax um uh our dining room manager

00:37:20.940 um couldn't afford to live in toronto anymore and uh and sold their condo and moved to pickering

00:37:27.660 um where you know they sold a little condo and uh exchange for a big house uh our bar manager um

00:37:36.140 same thing went to go work uh in another industry uh because he couldn't survive off of um

00:37:43.180 off of the serve um and you know all of our our uh you know hourly staff that are you know generally a

00:37:50.300 little bit younger more kind of in their 20s um moved home or moved to cities where they could afford rent so

00:37:55.980 um virtually all of our staff uh left the city um and you know upon reopening it's been very difficult

00:38:03.900 to to find staff uh we've had to raise all of our um uh wages uh you know above what they were and

00:38:12.300 above um you know there's a minimum server wage um and we've opted to you know pay our servers more

00:38:19.580 to try and entice people to come and work with us um but it's it's one of our biggest challenges

00:38:24.620 right now is uh labor we haven't talked about inflation but i'm sure uh the actual goods

00:38:29.900 that you're dealing with there the the cooking supply so you mentioned you got to pay the person

00:38:33.580 to to check the passport you've got the supplies uh you've got the labor costs going up and then

00:38:38.140 you've got inflation to deal with it seems like pretty much on on every end you're being squeezed

00:38:43.580 our ingredient costs are spiking um um canola oil has almost tripled in price

00:38:50.940 um so we use that to fill our deep fryers a lot of our cooking is done with canola oil

00:38:56.460 um uh so that has spiked and is a huge cost um i think the main problem is the gas prices have uh you

00:39:05.900 know spiked with the carbon tax so right um you know all of the farmers using fuel to uh you know

00:39:11.660 produce these goods has gone up uh you know they raised their price um the delivery company that's

00:39:18.060 bringing it to us is raising their price for fuel um and then by the time we get it um you know it's

00:39:25.420 inflation so you know prices from all all of our ingredients across the border going up um

00:39:32.860 not just uh you know not just you know canola oil one of the things i lament so much when i see

00:39:39.180 an independent shop a restaurant go out of business as many have done during the pandemic

00:39:43.980 is that this is what makes our communities unique this is what makes them communities

00:39:48.940 when you say oh you're going to manhattan for the first time you're going to toronto for the first

00:39:52.540 time no one says you got to try the mcdonald's at times square you got to try the mcdonald's at king

00:39:57.020 and spadina it's fantastic they say you're going to toronto you got to check out michael huntler's

00:40:01.180 antler kitchen it is just great they give you the list these are the top this is the art gallery you got

00:40:05.100 to go these are the two restaurants and so forth and i i worry about the degree to which the future of

00:40:11.180 our restaurants is also the future of our communities it's the future of our cities where

00:40:16.060 do you see this heading um you know i don't have a crystal ball i would hope that our economy bounces

00:40:22.380 back um i hope that uh you know staff come back and the restaurant industry comes back um you know but

00:40:29.900 i think time time will tell um it's uh it's definitely scary uh to think about but you know i uh have faith

00:40:39.260 and you know we've survived a lot of other restaurants have survived um you know it might

00:40:44.860 be a good opportunity for uh you know rent opportunities to uh you know rent subsidies and

00:40:51.260 or not subsidies but um you know the price of renting uh space in toronto hopefully that will

00:40:56.620 go down and entice more restaurants to come back uh you know we'll see michael i know you're always

00:41:01.180 trying new things you get the cookbook you're working on interesting new recipes uh tell me what's

00:41:06.700 what's in the pipeline what's coming up for you um i am working on a second book um

00:41:15.180 i'm doing a lot of work in the sort of outdoor space um right now that um i focused a lot on

00:41:22.460 during the pandemic because my restaurant was closed uh i had to lay myself off um you know during the

00:41:29.420 reopening and selling takeout for the year um i still was on half my salary so i was um kind of

00:41:35.900 branching out and writing recipes for uh outdoor brands um you know when it when it comes to game

00:41:42.860 and wild fish and things like that so um i've really been you know pushing hard to work um in

00:41:48.860 the outdoor community um so i'm continuing and um you know that work as well um and then uh you know

00:41:57.820 we're going to be continually continually um you know trying to grow antlers so we're we're um you know

00:42:02.860 pre-pandemic we were looking at expanding um i think now uh you know we're trying to figure out

00:42:07.820 again what what we can do to grow awesome stuff michael hunter thanks so much for joining us on

00:42:12.220 the podcast to tell your story i really appreciate it thanks so much for having me it's been a lot of

00:42:16.300 fun full comment is a post media podcast i'm anthony fury this episode was produced by andre pru

00:42:23.020 with theme music by bryce hall kevin libban is the executive producer you can subscribe to full

00:42:27.980 comment on apple podcasts google spotify or wherever you get your podcasts you can help

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Full Comment - October 18, 2021

Chef Michael Hunter fights for the ‘right to eat wild food’

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