Full Comment - Colonialism isn’t as bad as everyone thinks

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00:01:34.260 Colonialism.

00:01:34.880 It's bad, right?

00:01:36.080 This is something we all agree on,

00:01:37.620 at least in the polite company that makes up our

00:01:39.860 canceled culture society of today.

00:01:42.040 This is why we're renaming streets,

00:01:44.740 tearing down statues,

00:01:45.920 and rewriting history books around the world, isn't it?

00:01:48.740 Well, not quite everyone.

00:01:50.720 And the insistence of our next guest

00:01:52.220 that we look at the totality of things,

00:01:54.520 like colonialism even,

00:01:56.480 both in a historical context and an ethical one,

00:01:59.220 is what makes him such an interesting guest.

00:02:01.580 Hello, I'm Brian Lilly,

00:02:02.820 and this is the Full Comment Podcast.

00:02:04.700 Before I bring on our next guest,

00:02:06.480 just a quick reminder,

00:02:07.780 hit that subscribe button.

00:02:09.000 Doesn't matter where you're listening,

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00:02:12.940 doesn't matter where,

00:02:14.020 please hit the subscribe button.

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00:02:22.700 We've seen the statues come down around the world,

00:02:25.060 and it's not just Confederate generals on horseback

00:02:27.840 celebrating a culture that wanted to preserve slavery.

00:02:31.180 It's the statues of Queen Victoria,

00:02:33.540 Sir John A. MacDonald,

00:02:35.000 Egerton Ryerson, and more.

00:02:36.640 Our next guest,

00:02:37.400 Nigel Bigger's new book,

00:02:38.400 Colonialism, A Moral Reckoning,

00:02:40.440 comes out in the first week of May here in Canada,

00:02:42.460 and it began when he felt the need

00:02:44.480 to defend a push to remove a statue

00:02:46.400 of Cecil Rhodes from Oxford in 2016.

00:02:50.340 Bigger is an ethicist by training,

00:02:52.240 and he felt the totality of Rhodes' life and work

00:02:55.540 told a very different story

00:02:56.940 than what his critics portrayed.

00:02:58.840 That led to a full study,

00:03:00.540 a look back at the issue of colonialism,

00:03:02.720 a form of government that stretches back

00:03:04.860 millennia and across all cultures,

00:03:07.120 but is now portrayed as an evil

00:03:09.180 inflicted upon the world by Western Europe.

00:03:12.480 Nigel, thanks for the time today.

00:03:14.580 Thanks, Brian, for the opportunity to talk.

00:03:17.880 Did I describe it correctly,

00:03:19.460 how this started with you and your decision to say,

00:03:23.320 well, wait a minute,

00:03:24.780 your criticisms of Cecil Rhodes,

00:03:27.720 of which there could be many criticisms,

00:03:29.500 but the criticisms being leveled at him at the time

00:03:31.600 and the demand for his statue to come down

00:03:34.360 just weren't quite right?

00:03:37.060 That's about it, Brian.

00:03:39.320 So we're back in December 2015,

00:03:41.640 and the campaign to make Rhodes fall

00:03:46.100 arrived in Britain from South Africa,

00:03:49.140 and outside what had been my own college,

00:03:51.980 there were protests

00:03:52.720 because the exterior of the college sports,

00:03:56.500 almost out of sight, frankly,

00:03:58.360 a small statue of Cecil Rhodes

00:04:00.580 over the high street here in central Oxford.

00:04:04.060 And the students were clamouring

00:04:08.080 for the statue to be taken down

00:04:10.480 because they said Rhodes was South Africa's Hitler,

00:04:15.160 because they claimed he was guilty of genocide.

00:04:20.040 And I happened to have been reading

00:04:22.040 one of several biographies of Rhodes at the time,

00:04:25.740 and I thought to myself,

00:04:26.900 this is just not true,

00:04:29.360 it's a caricature.

00:04:32.360 But apart from the distorted view of Rhodes

00:04:36.800 that was fuelling this protest,

00:04:39.620 I was much more concerned about

00:04:41.460 the significance of taking down the Rhodes statue

00:04:45.580 in terms of the view about Britain's colonial history,

00:04:51.120 and of course Canada's and Australia's,

00:04:53.180 that would triumph through removing the statue,

00:04:57.140 because it seemed to me that what was happening

00:04:58.440 was that a distorted view of our colonial history

00:05:02.000 was being projected on to Rhodes,

00:05:04.160 and Rhodes was being made the fall guy, so to speak.

00:05:07.280 And I didn't want that distorted view of history to triumph.

00:05:12.000 In your book,

00:05:12.780 you have an interesting statement that I said,

00:05:16.480 aha, that's it.

00:05:18.620 You said this movement is about the present,

00:05:21.100 not the past.

00:05:23.200 What did you mean by that?

00:05:25.060 Well, one thing I noticed way back five, six years ago

00:05:29.140 was that those clamoring for Rhodes' downfall

00:05:35.240 weren't much interested about the truth about the past,

00:05:38.580 because the truth about Rhodes is that he was morally mixed.

00:05:41.900 Let me make clear,

00:05:43.240 he's not a hero of mine.

00:05:44.840 If I was going to raise a poster boy to the British Empire,

00:05:47.420 it wouldn't be Rhodes,

00:05:48.020 because Rhodes was an entrepreneur,

00:05:50.760 he was a buccaneer,

00:05:52.300 he cut corners,

00:05:53.800 his practices were sometimes sharp.

00:05:57.560 So he was no saint.

00:05:59.600 But on the other hand,

00:06:01.040 he was a formidable figure.

00:06:05.120 He was responsible for developing

00:06:08.180 a lot of infrastructure in South Africa.

00:06:10.200 He made a lot of money,

00:06:12.700 but he didn't spend it on himself.

00:06:13.860 He was much more interested in promoting

00:06:15.620 what he regarded as the progressive causes

00:06:18.240 of his time.

00:06:21.240 So the real Rhodes,

00:06:23.660 the true Rhodes is morally mixed.

00:06:25.960 But it became clear to me quite early on

00:06:28.100 that those clamoring for Rhodes' downfall

00:06:29.500 didn't care about the past,

00:06:31.040 about the truth about the past.

00:06:32.500 They were using this as a useful political tool

00:06:37.320 to achieve things in the present.

00:06:40.740 And if you,

00:06:41.780 nowadays,

00:06:44.060 since the Black Lives Matter across the Atlantic

00:06:47.300 after the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis

00:06:51.100 a couple of years ago,

00:06:54.100 the phrase in my country,

00:06:57.000 colonialism and slavery,

00:06:58.700 is widely used

00:07:00.120 as if British colonialism and slavery

00:07:03.520 were the same thing,

00:07:04.500 as if British colonial history

00:07:06.300 can be identified simply with slavery.

00:07:10.360 Historically, that's nonsense

00:07:11.380 because for the second part of its existence,

00:07:14.360 the empire was committed to anti-slavery.

00:07:17.300 But again,

00:07:17.700 the slogan is politically useful.

00:07:21.920 This idea that people are complex,

00:07:27.460 I think you used the term morally ambiguous

00:07:29.380 or something to that effect.

00:07:31.580 That can apply to an awful lot of people

00:07:33.860 that these movements are trying to cancel

00:07:36.560 in history, can't it?

00:07:37.560 I mean,

00:07:38.180 very few people are

00:07:39.940 all good or all bad.

00:07:43.300 They're often creatures of their day,

00:07:45.220 of their time.

00:07:46.940 And,

00:07:47.500 you know,

00:07:48.000 if we were

00:07:49.680 applying an objective lens

00:07:51.580 instead of one

00:07:52.600 grounded in presentism,

00:07:54.500 as in,

00:07:55.200 well,

00:07:55.380 I'm going to judge

00:07:56.200 a person from 200 years ago

00:07:58.200 by my standards today,

00:07:59.520 if we judge them objectively,

00:08:01.660 we might say,

00:08:02.240 okay,

00:08:02.480 well,

00:08:03.300 here's the good things he did,

00:08:04.600 here's the bad things he did,

00:08:05.860 and we'll make an assessment

00:08:07.440 based on that.

00:08:08.640 Instead,

00:08:09.160 we say,

00:08:10.000 well,

00:08:10.220 how would we judge this person

00:08:11.680 by today's standards?

00:08:14.080 Yes,

00:08:14.780 Brian,

00:08:16.180 I agree entirely with that.

00:08:17.800 But there are two things.

00:08:18.800 First of all,

00:08:19.440 yes,

00:08:19.680 you're quite right.

00:08:21.300 We are judging the past

00:08:22.960 by present standards.

00:08:24.260 I mean,

00:08:24.360 we in Britain

00:08:25.540 and in Canada

00:08:26.320 live in countries

00:08:27.520 that enjoy

00:08:28.240 unprecedented levels

00:08:30.080 of prosperity

00:08:30.920 and peace

00:08:32.440 and security.

00:08:34.620 In order to understand

00:08:35.640 the past,

00:08:36.120 we need to inhabit a world

00:08:37.540 where life

00:08:38.740 in all sorts of respects

00:08:39.580 is far more insecure,

00:08:41.940 far more threatening.

00:08:44.920 So,

00:08:45.120 yes,

00:08:46.380 we judge the past

00:08:48.700 by the present

00:08:50.280 and we forget

00:08:50.880 how different the past was.

00:08:52.080 But also,

00:08:53.320 we seem to judge

00:08:54.800 the past

00:08:55.980 in an incredibly

00:08:57.320 absolutist

00:08:58.080 and

00:08:58.640 moralistic way.

00:09:01.560 We are very unforgiving.

00:09:03.580 I happen to be a Christian,

00:09:05.480 so the notion

00:09:06.220 that

00:09:06.700 sin exists within me

00:09:08.640 as well as in the outside world

00:09:09.820 and in you

00:09:10.660 is very familiar.

00:09:12.460 And one of the merits

00:09:13.380 of that view

00:09:14.560 of oneself

00:09:15.200 is

00:09:15.700 it tempers

00:09:17.380 the

00:09:17.780 severity

00:09:19.460 of the way

00:09:20.260 in which we judge

00:09:20.940 other people.

00:09:21.420 So there's also

00:09:22.280 a kind of

00:09:22.860 in addition to presentism

00:09:23.980 there's also moralism

00:09:25.020 which I find

00:09:25.680 quite ugly.

00:09:27.160 But to get to your point

00:09:28.120 about

00:09:28.480 everyone being flawed,

00:09:31.380 yes,

00:09:31.760 I mean

00:09:32.060 early on

00:09:33.900 I made the point

00:09:34.660 that if we want

00:09:35.700 to raise

00:09:36.920 statues to anybody

00:09:37.920 we've got to put up

00:09:40.320 with flawed people

00:09:41.580 because

00:09:42.080 yes,

00:09:43.140 Winston Churchill

00:09:44.060 saved the Western world

00:09:46.080 from

00:09:46.620 Nazi

00:09:47.820 rule of the 1940s.

00:09:49.120 yes,

00:09:50.140 his view

00:09:50.860 of

00:09:51.300 Indians

00:09:52.040 was

00:09:52.540 sometimes

00:09:53.380 racist.

00:09:55.280 Yes,

00:09:55.600 Abraham Lincoln

00:09:56.280 was responsible

00:09:57.520 for keeping

00:09:58.920 the US united

00:09:59.780 and proclaiming

00:10:01.300 emancipation.

00:10:02.020 But yes,

00:10:02.440 Abraham Lincoln

00:10:03.060 was not at all

00:10:04.260 confident

00:10:04.740 that black

00:10:05.980 Africans

00:10:06.780 could be

00:10:08.040 assimilated

00:10:09.260 into American society

00:10:10.540 and preferred

00:10:11.100 the idea

00:10:11.620 of having them

00:10:12.800 shipped off

00:10:13.900 to some

00:10:14.440 new place

00:10:15.540 in South America.

00:10:16.540 Mahatma Gandhi

00:10:20.520 famous for his

00:10:21.820 non-violent

00:10:23.140 resistance

00:10:23.700 to British rule

00:10:24.740 in India

00:10:25.240 had very

00:10:26.560 disparaging views

00:10:27.360 of black Africans

00:10:28.080 and I could go on

00:10:29.880 and if you're

00:10:31.180 in Washington

00:10:31.560 as I was

00:10:33.160 a couple of years ago

00:10:34.380 you walk past

00:10:35.980 the extremely

00:10:36.440 impressive statue

00:10:37.360 to Martin Luther King

00:10:39.120 in central Washington.

00:10:42.280 Now that statue

00:10:42.840 of course

00:10:43.220 is erected

00:10:43.760 to someone

00:10:44.220 who was

00:10:45.520 a martyr

00:10:47.160 to the cause

00:10:47.920 of civil rights

00:10:48.760 in America

00:10:49.980 but Martin Luther King

00:10:51.400 it so turns out

00:10:52.200 was also a serial

00:10:53.240 philanderer.

00:10:53.840 He betrayed his wife

00:10:54.640 but he's not

00:10:56.100 remembered for that.

00:10:57.620 He's remembered

00:10:57.940 because of his

00:10:58.660 civil rights

00:10:59.660 activity.

00:11:01.220 So I agree entirely

00:11:01.960 if we're going to have

00:11:02.700 heroes at all

00:11:03.320 I think we should have heroes

00:11:04.240 we need to be willing

00:11:05.460 to accept ones

00:11:06.320 that are flawed.

00:11:09.220 I don't want to

00:11:10.100 spend too much time

00:11:11.100 on Cecil Rhodes

00:11:11.700 because I don't think

00:11:12.380 most people think

00:11:13.100 about him anymore

00:11:13.780 beyond the Rhodes

00:11:14.800 Scholarship.

00:11:15.520 He's someone

00:11:16.920 that historians

00:11:17.740 will ponder

00:11:20.720 and discuss

00:11:21.520 but for the most part

00:11:22.380 in day-to-day life

00:11:23.560 we don't go around

00:11:24.260 thinking about Rhodes.

00:11:25.920 But you've described

00:11:28.200 him in his legacy

00:11:29.980 in some interesting terms.

00:11:32.280 While he's now

00:11:33.420 viewed as a racist

00:11:34.660 he's someone

00:11:35.360 who sought

00:11:36.700 to give the vote

00:11:37.640 to black South Africans

00:11:38.960 and he's someone

00:11:40.480 who was honoured

00:11:41.340 by black South Africans

00:11:42.860 after his death.

00:11:44.640 Correct?

00:11:45.700 That's right.

00:11:46.600 I mean Rhodes is

00:11:47.740 I mean

00:11:48.360 one thing

00:11:50.580 we all need to do

00:11:51.900 if it's possible

00:11:53.800 is to have an adult

00:11:54.940 conversation

00:11:55.460 about what we mean

00:11:56.280 by racism.

00:11:58.760 My view is

00:11:59.820 that

00:12:00.120 the worst kind

00:12:01.740 of racism

00:12:02.120 is that which regards

00:12:03.300 people of another race

00:12:04.860 as naturally

00:12:06.180 biologically inferior

00:12:07.340 and incapable

00:12:08.540 of growing

00:12:09.340 and developing

00:12:09.860 just like anyone else.

00:12:11.920 So that's what we call

00:12:12.700 kind of scientific racism

00:12:13.920 which came onto the scene

00:12:15.480 in the late 1800s.

00:12:18.040 But it never eclipsed

00:12:19.480 the earlier

00:12:20.540 Christian view

00:12:21.880 that notwithstanding

00:12:23.000 different levels

00:12:24.240 of cultural development

00:12:25.340 members of all races

00:12:27.080 are equally capable

00:12:28.120 of developing

00:12:29.800 and growing

00:12:30.240 equally capable

00:12:31.680 they have equal potential

00:12:33.300 to grow and develop.

00:12:35.320 And Rhodes

00:12:35.860 was not a scientific racist

00:12:38.460 when he landed

00:12:39.860 in South Africa

00:12:40.920 in 1870

00:12:41.920 and encountered

00:12:44.100 Bantu Africans

00:12:45.400 at that time

00:12:46.780 it was manifestly

00:12:48.200 clear to him

00:12:48.900 that he

00:12:50.240 as a representative

00:12:51.320 of

00:12:52.100 British

00:12:53.380 civilization

00:12:54.360 at the height

00:12:55.180 of its power

00:12:55.820 was in so many ways

00:12:58.040 technologically

00:12:58.900 scientifically

00:12:59.480 commercially

00:13:00.800 navally

00:13:01.680 militarily

00:13:02.300 superior

00:13:03.320 to what he found

00:13:04.260 on the ground

00:13:05.440 in South Africa.

00:13:06.920 and I think

00:13:08.540 we need to remember

00:13:09.540 to be a bit

00:13:10.380 forgiving

00:13:10.700 of Britons

00:13:11.900 at that time

00:13:13.980 in history

00:13:14.360 when their own

00:13:15.440 superiority

00:13:15.780 was clear

00:13:17.860 to everybody

00:13:18.420 but

00:13:20.820 Rhodes did not think

00:13:22.260 that Africans

00:13:23.440 were incapable

00:13:24.100 of developing

00:13:24.780 at one point

00:13:25.540 in 1894

00:13:26.720 in the Cape Parliament

00:13:27.920 he said

00:13:28.440 I do not believe

00:13:31.340 that they

00:13:31.800 Africans

00:13:32.280 are different

00:13:32.700 from ourselves

00:13:33.280 basically

00:13:33.780 and you'll find

00:13:34.440 the same thing

00:13:35.000 with John A. Macdonald

00:13:36.300 in your own country

00:13:37.000 Canada

00:13:37.820 so I don't think

00:13:40.520 Rhodes was actually

00:13:41.360 racist

00:13:42.520 but

00:13:45.720 he

00:13:46.780 and also

00:13:48.520 he was

00:13:49.940 he was an imperialist

00:13:51.400 by which I mean

00:13:52.820 he really believed

00:13:53.920 that the British Empire

00:13:54.840 was a force

00:13:56.580 for

00:13:57.040 modernity

00:13:58.640 and that modernity

00:13:59.480 was progress

00:14:00.440 and progress

00:14:01.020 was good

00:14:01.880 in the same way

00:14:02.860 that contemporary

00:14:03.740 progressives

00:14:04.380 are committed

00:14:04.880 to certain causes

00:14:05.800 so was

00:14:06.960 Rhodes

00:14:07.620 and

00:14:08.500 such wealth

00:14:09.520 as he made

00:14:10.020 he didn't spend

00:14:10.680 on himself

00:14:11.160 unlike

00:14:12.000 let's say

00:14:13.160 Jacob Zuma

00:14:13.780 the recent

00:14:15.000 president of

00:14:15.820 South Africa

00:14:16.260 who

00:14:17.060 has used

00:14:18.440 his power

00:14:18.880 to loot

00:14:20.000 the state

00:14:20.400 for private

00:14:20.920 purposes

00:14:21.320 Rhodes

00:14:21.900 devoted himself

00:14:22.720 to developing

00:14:23.380 South Africa

00:14:24.020 when we

00:14:29.140 were talking

00:14:29.680 about this

00:14:30.280 and Nigel

00:14:31.040 you lived

00:14:31.480 in Toronto

00:14:31.920 so you might

00:14:32.440 remember

00:14:32.800 Dundas Street

00:14:33.640 I do

00:14:34.220 in the middle

00:14:36.260 of downtown

00:14:37.140 Toronto

00:14:37.500 we've also

00:14:38.040 got a

00:14:38.360 Dundas County

00:14:39.080 we've got

00:14:39.620 Dundas

00:14:40.140 a town

00:14:41.500 now part

00:14:42.300 of the city

00:14:42.660 of Hamilton

00:14:43.060 we've got

00:14:44.180 plenty of places

00:14:44.940 named for

00:14:45.600 a Scottish

00:14:46.760 politician

00:14:47.220 who never

00:14:47.820 visited Canada

00:14:48.720 but who

00:14:49.740 was friends

00:14:50.660 with

00:14:51.100 the first

00:14:52.180 governor

00:14:52.600 general

00:14:53.020 of Ontario

00:14:53.800 John Simcoe

00:14:54.960 Graves

00:14:55.300 Dundas

00:14:58.720 there is a

00:14:59.760 push by

00:15:00.400 activists

00:15:01.220 to say

00:15:01.620 Dundas

00:15:02.120 was a

00:15:03.080 racist

00:15:03.460 and a

00:15:03.780 supporter

00:15:04.080 of slavery

00:15:04.760 and we've

00:15:06.100 got to

00:15:06.700 take away

00:15:08.920 the street

00:15:09.500 name

00:15:09.800 change the

00:15:11.440 name to

00:15:11.740 something else

00:15:12.360 change all

00:15:13.060 the names

00:15:13.460 honoring him

00:15:14.040 to something

00:15:14.440 else

00:15:14.680 because he

00:15:15.660 delayed

00:15:16.200 the removal

00:15:17.980 of slavery

00:15:18.700 and I'm

00:15:19.880 not sure

00:15:20.160 if you're

00:15:20.460 familiar with

00:15:21.220 this

00:15:21.540 controversy

00:15:22.240 but

00:15:22.720 in this

00:15:23.600 case

00:15:23.820 what he

00:15:24.900 did was

00:15:25.500 helped

00:15:26.100 Wilberforce

00:15:26.740 pass a

00:15:27.280 bill

00:15:27.480 by saying

00:15:28.160 we'll do

00:15:28.900 it in an

00:15:29.340 incremental

00:15:29.700 fashion

00:15:30.200 because

00:15:30.520 the attempt

00:15:31.340 to abolish

00:15:32.140 slavery

00:15:32.480 through the

00:15:32.920 legislature

00:15:33.440 through

00:15:34.180 parliament

00:15:34.600 at Westminster

00:15:35.300 had already

00:15:36.080 failed twice

00:15:36.680 because it

00:15:37.480 wasn't

00:15:38.280 incremental

00:15:38.880 and so he

00:15:39.920 said well

00:15:40.380 if you

00:15:40.820 change the

00:15:42.000 bill to

00:15:42.420 go in

00:15:43.780 this direction

00:15:44.520 it will

00:15:45.320 pass and

00:15:45.840 we will

00:15:46.120 get rid

00:15:46.460 of slavery

00:15:46.900 and he

00:15:48.360 is now

00:15:48.780 being

00:15:49.100 described

00:15:49.680 in the

00:15:50.360 most

00:15:50.540 horrific

00:15:50.860 terms

00:15:51.380 because

00:15:52.040 they

00:15:52.680 say

00:15:52.880 well

00:15:53.080 he

00:15:53.320 extended

00:15:54.040 slavery

00:15:55.180 without

00:15:55.540 that

00:15:55.880 compromise

00:15:56.520 there

00:15:57.140 would

00:15:57.320 have

00:15:57.420 been

00:15:57.680 you know

00:15:58.600 who knows

00:15:59.220 when the

00:15:59.700 British

00:15:59.900 Empire

00:16:00.240 would have

00:16:00.860 gotten

00:16:01.260 rid of

00:16:01.740 slavery

00:16:02.640 is

00:16:04.200 are we

00:16:05.120 judging

00:16:05.700 people

00:16:06.220 in ways

00:16:07.180 that are

00:16:07.480 fundamentally

00:16:08.080 untrue

00:16:08.840 to what

00:16:09.680 happened

00:16:10.120 yes

00:16:11.320 we're also

00:16:11.820 judging

00:16:12.180 them without

00:16:12.540 any reference

00:16:13.280 to context

00:16:14.100 Ryan

00:16:14.940 because

00:16:15.480 before we

00:16:17.400 talk about

00:16:17.820 Dundas

00:16:18.340 let's just

00:16:19.020 remember

00:16:19.400 that slavery

00:16:20.920 was a

00:16:21.580 phenomenon

00:16:21.980 from

00:16:23.160 ancient

00:16:23.920 history

00:16:24.360 in the

00:16:24.860 in

00:16:25.700 Mesopotamia

00:16:26.700 to the

00:16:27.560 modern

00:16:27.760 period

00:16:28.080 I think

00:16:28.560 it was

00:16:28.800 last abolished

00:16:30.000 in the

00:16:30.200 Ottoman Empire

00:16:30.700 in 1920

00:16:31.360 everyone

00:16:33.420 did it

00:16:34.080 long before

00:16:35.700 Europeans

00:16:36.960 started trading

00:16:37.800 slaves across

00:16:38.380 the Atlantic

00:16:38.820 in the

00:16:39.700 1450s

00:16:41.280 or thereabouts

00:16:41.920 Africans

00:16:43.080 had been

00:16:44.080 raiding

00:16:45.080 other Africans

00:16:45.940 enslaving

00:16:46.900 them

00:16:47.200 and trading

00:16:48.060 them to

00:16:48.700 first of all

00:16:49.260 the Romans

00:16:49.680 and then the

00:16:50.680 Arabs

00:16:51.000 in North

00:16:51.780 America

00:16:52.200 in the

00:16:53.040 1700s

00:16:53.940 the

00:16:54.480 Comunches

00:16:54.960 ran what

00:16:56.100 one scholar

00:16:56.740 calls a

00:16:58.200 vast slave

00:16:59.080 economy in

00:16:59.820 the southwest

00:17:00.280 of what is

00:17:00.680 now the

00:17:00.980 United

00:17:01.200 States

00:17:01.740 and I

00:17:02.680 was in

00:17:03.200 Raleigh

00:17:04.620 North

00:17:04.820 Carolina

00:17:05.260 visiting my

00:17:06.040 wife's

00:17:06.500 family

00:17:06.860 in January

00:17:08.120 I visited

00:17:08.640 the

00:17:09.020 Museum of

00:17:10.000 the History

00:17:10.320 of the

00:17:10.800 State of

00:17:11.040 North

00:17:11.180 Carolina

00:17:11.620 and what

00:17:12.520 did I

00:17:12.740 discover

00:17:13.060 in 1860

00:17:15.140 on the eve

00:17:15.700 of the

00:17:15.940 American

00:17:16.160 Civil War

00:17:16.860 there were

00:17:17.860 30,000

00:17:18.520 freed

00:17:18.900 slaves in

00:17:19.380 North

00:17:19.560 Carolina

00:17:19.980 of which

00:17:21.840 some

00:17:22.600 owned

00:17:23.680 their own

00:17:24.000 slaves

00:17:24.420 freed

00:17:26.140 slaves

00:17:26.560 black

00:17:27.000 Americans

00:17:27.460 owned

00:17:27.960 their own

00:17:28.360 black

00:17:28.720 American

00:17:29.100 slaves

00:17:29.600 so common

00:17:30.620 was

00:17:30.900 slavery

00:17:31.280 so we

00:17:32.340 need to

00:17:32.600 get

00:17:32.860 that may

00:17:33.720 surprise us

00:17:34.840 and appall

00:17:35.280 us

00:17:35.560 it is a

00:17:36.440 fact

00:17:36.700 what was

00:17:38.700 extraordinary

00:17:39.260 about

00:17:39.940 what developed

00:17:41.900 in

00:17:43.300 Northwest

00:17:44.300 Europe

00:17:44.820 in the

00:17:46.380 second half

00:17:47.080 of the

00:17:47.600 1700s

00:17:48.720 and in

00:17:49.380 Britain

00:17:49.640 was the

00:17:50.820 movement

00:17:51.200 that there

00:17:51.920 was the

00:17:52.160 idea

00:17:52.620 that owning

00:17:54.020 other people

00:17:54.980 owning other

00:17:55.700 people as

00:17:56.120 your property

00:17:57.020 when they

00:17:58.540 had no

00:17:58.860 rights

00:17:59.100 whatsoever

00:17:59.540 was

00:18:00.400 immoral

00:18:00.840 that was

00:18:02.420 an entirely

00:18:03.300 novel idea

00:18:04.460 and Denmark

00:18:05.960 was the

00:18:06.580 first country

00:18:07.260 in the history

00:18:07.800 of the

00:18:08.040 world

00:18:08.320 to

00:18:09.640 abolish

00:18:11.040 the slave

00:18:11.380 trade

00:18:11.820 Britain

00:18:12.220 followed

00:18:12.480 three years

00:18:12.920 later

00:18:13.260 and then

00:18:14.520 Britain

00:18:15.420 led the

00:18:15.880 world

00:18:16.220 in

00:18:16.860 suppressing

00:18:17.260 slavery

00:18:17.900 across the

00:18:20.320 Atlantic

00:18:20.640 from Brazil

00:18:21.880 across Africa

00:18:22.860 India

00:18:23.380 Malaysia

00:18:23.960 so let's

00:18:26.120 just get

00:18:26.540 clear

00:18:26.860 the movement

00:18:28.240 to abolish

00:18:28.660 slavery

00:18:29.000 was unprecedented

00:18:30.360 in the

00:18:30.940 world's history

00:18:31.500 and Britain

00:18:32.460 was a

00:18:32.840 leader

00:18:33.060 now

00:18:33.980 as for why

00:18:35.440 it took

00:18:35.700 so long

00:18:36.100 for people

00:18:36.440 to realise

00:18:36.820 it was so

00:18:37.240 bad

00:18:37.560 that's an

00:18:38.080 interesting

00:18:38.340 question

00:18:38.840 but the

00:18:39.600 good news

00:18:40.020 is that

00:18:40.680 people like

00:18:41.280 Wilberforce

00:18:42.100 supported

00:18:42.740 by Dundas

00:18:43.540 were moving

00:18:44.480 to have

00:18:45.220 the slave

00:18:47.480 trade and

00:18:48.080 then slavery

00:18:48.980 itself

00:18:49.420 abolished

00:18:50.320 now some

00:18:51.260 may say

00:18:51.720 it could

00:18:52.060 have happened

00:18:52.480 more quickly

00:18:53.420 but the

00:18:54.140 fact of

00:18:54.440 the matter

00:18:54.680 is politics

00:18:55.320 is like

00:18:55.720 that

00:18:56.040 it takes

00:18:56.980 persuasion

00:18:57.520 it takes

00:18:58.160 time

00:18:58.460 it took

00:18:58.740 50 years

00:18:59.600 from the

00:19:01.340 beginnings

00:19:02.220 of the

00:19:02.820 campaign

00:19:03.280 to abolish

00:19:03.940 the slave

00:19:04.380 trade

00:19:04.820 for slavery

00:19:05.900 itself

00:19:06.300 to be

00:19:07.120 eliminated

00:19:07.700 within the

00:19:08.160 British

00:19:08.420 Empire

00:19:09.100 and after

00:19:11.480 the trade

00:19:12.220 was abolished

00:19:12.760 in 1807

00:19:13.480 most abolitionists

00:19:15.900 including black

00:19:17.380 abolitionists

00:19:18.160 thought

00:19:18.940 that

00:19:19.800 that

00:19:21.800 the institution

00:19:22.720 of slavery

00:19:23.200 in the

00:19:23.520 West Indies

00:19:24.120 would wither

00:19:24.820 by itself

00:19:25.440 if there

00:19:25.740 was no

00:19:26.100 trade

00:19:26.560 to bring

00:19:27.260 fresh

00:19:27.640 slaves

00:19:28.020 to the

00:19:28.820 West Indies

00:19:29.340 it was only

00:19:30.020 when it

00:19:30.380 became clear

00:19:30.840 that wasn't

00:19:31.260 happening

00:19:31.640 that in

00:19:32.480 1820

00:19:33.780 or thereabouts

00:19:34.440 they revived

00:19:35.560 the campaign

00:19:36.140 to have

00:19:36.660 slavery

00:19:37.800 itself

00:19:38.880 abolished

00:19:39.380 but my

00:19:39.940 point is

00:19:40.360 even black

00:19:41.240 abolitionists

00:19:41.980 in the

00:19:42.820 1810s

00:19:44.040 or thereabouts

00:19:44.580 were

00:19:44.860 gradualists

00:19:45.600 I can't

00:19:46.560 remember the

00:19:46.860 details of

00:19:47.640 Dundas's

00:19:48.180 case

00:19:48.440 but the

00:19:48.680 fact that

00:19:49.020 he

00:19:49.240 counseled

00:19:50.680 gradual

00:19:51.140 abolition

00:19:51.580 should not

00:19:53.380 be a

00:19:56.100 cause for

00:19:56.840 criticism

00:19:57.700 It's

00:19:59.820 unfortunately

00:20:01.720 not

00:20:02.220 popular

00:20:05.340 to stand

00:20:06.380 up for

00:20:06.640 these causes

00:20:07.100 whether it's

00:20:07.720 Dundas

00:20:08.220 or

00:20:08.720 Egerton

00:20:09.220 Ryerson

00:20:09.740 they've

00:20:10.660 renamed

00:20:11.020 that school

00:20:11.940 to get rid

00:20:13.080 of the name

00:20:13.520 because they

00:20:13.980 say he was

00:20:14.600 affiliated

00:20:15.680 with the

00:20:16.720 tenuously

00:20:18.880 at best

00:20:19.740 they claim

00:20:20.500 he was

00:20:20.700 affiliated

00:20:21.060 with the

00:20:21.440 residential

00:20:21.780 schools

00:20:22.280 I know

00:20:24.520 you've

00:20:24.760 written

00:20:24.900 about that

00:20:25.460 I know

00:20:25.900 that you

00:20:26.440 are familiar

00:20:27.380 with the

00:20:28.120 residential

00:20:28.440 school system

00:20:29.100 in Canada

00:20:29.520 and some

00:20:29.960 of the

00:20:30.300 Canadian

00:20:31.140 history

00:20:31.520 as it

00:20:31.800 relates

00:20:32.080 to

00:20:32.300 colonialism

00:20:32.780 so

00:20:33.760 let me

00:20:34.720 ask you

00:20:35.020 about

00:20:35.260 that

00:20:35.640 somebody

00:20:35.940 like

00:20:36.240 Macdonald

00:20:37.080 at the

00:20:38.000 Ontario

00:20:38.360 legislature

00:20:38.860 we've

00:20:39.200 had a

00:20:39.780 statue

00:20:40.080 of

00:20:40.300 Macdonald

00:20:40.840 boxed

00:20:42.720 up

00:20:42.900 blocked

00:20:43.520 from

00:20:43.720 public

00:20:44.040 view

00:20:44.340 for

00:20:44.820 more

00:20:45.340 than

00:20:45.500 two

00:20:45.660 years

00:20:45.920 now

00:20:46.180 there

00:20:46.980 have

00:20:47.100 been

00:20:47.320 statues

00:20:47.800 of

00:20:47.980 Macdonald

00:20:48.420 either

00:20:48.680 taken

00:20:49.040 down

00:20:49.420 by

00:20:49.760 politicians

00:20:50.400 or

00:20:51.580 by

00:20:52.320 mobs

00:20:53.060 over

00:20:53.880 the

00:20:54.040 last

00:20:54.220 several

00:20:54.500 years

00:20:54.900 and

00:20:56.080 the

00:20:57.180 view

00:20:57.400 is

00:20:57.640 well

00:20:57.860 he

00:20:58.240 brought

00:20:58.520 in

00:20:58.700 residential

00:20:59.100 schools

00:20:59.660 he's

00:21:00.460 the

00:21:00.580 racist

00:21:01.020 he's

00:21:01.660 got

00:21:01.860 to

00:21:02.040 go

00:21:02.280 I

00:21:04.280 think

00:21:04.500 people

00:21:04.820 forget

00:21:05.340 that

00:21:05.720 well

00:21:06.000 a couple

00:21:06.360 of

00:21:06.480 things

00:21:06.740 like

00:21:08.180 Rhodes

00:21:08.560 who

00:21:08.760 we

00:21:08.900 were

00:21:09.040 discussing

00:21:09.440 earlier

00:21:09.860 Macdonald

00:21:10.740 was

00:21:11.000 was

00:21:11.020 complex

00:21:11.780 he

00:21:12.160 may

00:21:12.500 have

00:21:12.620 said

00:21:12.760 some

00:21:12.940 awful

00:21:13.180 things

00:21:13.460 but

00:21:13.600 he

00:21:13.700 also

00:21:13.900 extended

00:21:14.260 the

00:21:14.460 vote

00:21:14.720 to

00:21:15.700 First

00:21:16.520 Nations

00:21:16.840 and

00:21:17.860 the

00:21:19.280 idea

00:21:19.560 of

00:21:19.720 residential

00:21:20.080 schools

00:21:20.480 was

00:21:20.720 considered

00:21:21.120 the most

00:21:21.440 progressive

00:21:21.920 thing

00:21:22.380 of the

00:21:22.700 day

00:21:23.000 it

00:21:23.300 was

00:21:23.600 how

00:21:24.320 to

00:21:24.520 benefit

00:21:24.880 everybody

00:21:25.420 all

00:21:26.840 all

00:21:26.860 the

00:21:27.020 experts

00:21:27.360 said

00:21:27.660 it

00:21:27.760 was

00:21:27.880 the

00:21:28.000 right

00:21:28.160 thing

00:21:28.460 I

00:21:29.500 don't

00:21:30.000 think

00:21:30.320 it

00:21:30.480 came

00:21:30.860 from

00:21:31.140 a

00:21:31.280 source

00:21:31.600 of

00:21:32.180 racism

00:21:32.580 for

00:21:32.820 most

00:21:33.000 people

00:21:33.220 they

00:21:33.400 thought

00:21:33.760 here

00:21:34.180 is

00:21:34.360 how

00:21:34.500 we

00:21:34.740 help

00:21:35.740 better

00:21:36.580 people

00:21:37.000 the

00:21:37.820 outcome

00:21:38.100 was

00:21:38.380 horrific

00:21:38.720 for

00:21:39.360 many

00:21:39.660 but

00:21:40.600 does

00:21:41.840 that

00:21:42.880 mean

00:21:43.140 that

00:21:43.300 you

00:21:43.460 judge

00:21:44.340 someone

00:21:44.840 by

00:21:45.320 what

00:21:45.560 happened

00:21:46.000 in

00:21:46.460 the

00:21:47.940 1920s

00:21:48.820 or

00:21:48.900 the

00:21:49.000 1950s

00:21:49.880 when

00:21:50.140 they

00:21:50.260 were

00:21:50.400 long

00:21:50.640 dead

00:21:50.920 yes

00:21:52.540 I

00:21:52.760 mean

00:21:52.980 so

00:21:54.460 the

00:21:55.520 residential

00:21:55.820 schools

00:21:56.420 in the

00:21:58.220 late

00:21:58.540 1800s

00:21:59.580 early

00:21:59.760 1900s

00:22:00.620 were

00:22:01.380 deficient

00:22:01.740 in many

00:22:02.020 respects

00:22:02.600 but

00:22:04.240 and what

00:22:05.540 I know

00:22:05.840 about

00:22:06.020 residential

00:22:06.500 schools

00:22:06.840 I've

00:22:07.280 learnt

00:22:07.480 mostly

00:22:07.860 from

00:22:08.160 the

00:22:08.400 standard

00:22:08.860 history

00:22:09.900 of

00:22:10.300 the

00:22:10.440 residential

00:22:10.800 schools

00:22:11.340 written

00:22:11.580 by

00:22:11.840 J.R.

00:22:12.260 Miller

00:22:12.440 called

00:22:13.540 Ching Walk's

00:22:14.460 Vision

00:22:15.460 I think

00:22:15.820 it's

00:22:15.960 called

00:22:16.260 and

00:22:17.980 notwithstanding

00:22:19.660 the

00:22:20.920 deficiencies

00:22:21.700 of the

00:22:22.160 school

00:22:22.440 system

00:22:22.940 Miller

00:22:25.040 says

00:22:25.340 that

00:22:25.500 way

00:22:25.640 back

00:22:25.800 in

00:22:25.880 the

00:22:25.980 1990s

00:22:26.800 when

00:22:28.100 native

00:22:30.820 Canadians

00:22:31.640 members

00:22:32.460 of

00:22:32.640 First

00:22:32.840 Nations

00:22:33.240 who

00:22:33.980 had

00:22:34.140 positive

00:22:34.620 experiences

00:22:35.180 of the

00:22:35.680 residential

00:22:36.140 schools

00:22:36.520 when

00:22:36.960 they

00:22:37.100 tried

00:22:37.360 to get

00:22:37.560 the

00:22:37.720 media

00:22:37.940 to

00:22:38.140 take

00:22:38.300 them

00:22:38.460 seriously

00:22:38.900 they

00:22:39.420 found

00:22:39.640 that

00:22:39.940 the

00:22:40.040 media

00:22:40.200 weren't

00:22:40.360 interested

00:22:40.700 way

00:22:41.240 back

00:22:41.380 in

00:22:41.480 the

00:22:41.540 1990s

00:22:42.980 so

00:22:43.800 there

00:22:44.220 is

00:22:44.480 and

00:22:45.220 J.R.

00:22:46.020 Miller

00:22:46.120 himself

00:22:46.480 says

00:22:46.980 that

00:22:47.160 the

00:22:47.320 record

00:22:47.640 of

00:22:47.860 the

00:22:48.120 of

00:22:49.880 the

00:22:50.020 residential

00:22:50.300 schools

00:22:50.780 was

00:22:52.220 mixed

00:22:52.660 but

00:22:53.660 we

00:22:53.780 must

00:22:53.920 speak

00:22:54.080 about

00:22:54.300 it

00:22:54.420 in

00:22:54.560 nuanced

00:22:55.020 and

00:22:55.240 equivocal

00:22:55.660 tones

00:22:56.140 well

00:22:56.520 that

00:22:57.060 ain't

00:22:57.200 the

00:22:57.320 way

00:22:57.440 we're

00:22:57.620 talking

00:22:57.820 about

00:22:58.000 now

00:22:58.420 if

00:22:59.500 we

00:22:59.620 want

00:23:00.120 to

00:23:00.180 be

00:23:00.280 true

00:23:00.420 to

00:23:00.560 history

00:23:00.920 that's

00:23:01.620 what

00:23:01.740 he

00:23:01.860 says

00:23:02.200 but

00:23:04.860 again

00:23:05.200 the

00:23:06.960 current

00:23:07.520 campaign

00:23:09.200 is not

00:23:09.980 based on

00:23:10.440 historical

00:23:10.760 truth

00:23:11.180 it is

00:23:11.960 based

00:23:12.160 on

00:23:12.340 the

00:23:13.620 interests

00:23:14.080 of

00:23:14.280 certain

00:23:14.560 groups

00:23:14.960 exploiting

00:23:16.660 the

00:23:17.640 historical

00:23:18.340 ignorance

00:23:18.920 of a

00:23:20.060 liberal

00:23:20.300 elite

00:23:20.660 and

00:23:21.820 also

00:23:22.040 exploiting

00:23:22.580 their

00:23:22.740 propensity

00:23:23.100 to feel

00:23:23.420 guilty

00:23:23.720 about

00:23:24.100 what

00:23:24.860 they

00:23:24.980 don't

00:23:25.120 know

00:23:25.280 about

00:23:25.600 it's

00:23:27.500 not

00:23:27.660 to do

00:23:27.880 with

00:23:27.980 the

00:23:28.080 truth

00:23:28.220 about

00:23:28.380 the

00:23:28.480 past

00:23:28.800 now

00:23:29.040 in

00:23:29.200 terms

00:23:29.440 of

00:23:29.680 the

00:23:30.520 important

00:23:30.960 thing

00:23:31.140 about

00:23:31.280 residential

00:23:31.600 schools

00:23:31.920 is

00:23:32.160 to

00:23:32.560 recognize

00:23:32.960 that

00:23:33.340 it

00:23:33.880 was

00:23:34.300 members

00:23:35.320 of

00:23:35.540 first

00:23:35.760 nations

00:23:36.240 who

00:23:36.660 lobbied

00:23:37.080 for

00:23:37.240 the

00:23:37.360 schools

00:23:37.700 in

00:23:38.700 I

00:23:39.120 think

00:23:39.260 as

00:23:39.420 early

00:23:39.580 as

00:23:39.720 the

00:23:39.780 1830s

00:23:40.500 why

00:23:41.280 because

00:23:42.240 they

00:23:42.460 recognized

00:23:43.260 that

00:23:44.460 because

00:23:46.320 of the

00:23:46.860 advent

00:23:47.600 of

00:23:48.160 European

00:23:48.620 modernity

00:23:49.200 and

00:23:49.360 because

00:23:49.560 of

00:23:49.700 the

00:23:49.840 dominance

00:23:50.280 of

00:23:50.440 European

00:23:51.000 modernity

00:23:51.560 not least

00:23:52.160 through

00:23:52.420 the

00:23:52.640 inadvertent

00:23:53.160 spread

00:23:53.360 of

00:23:53.480 disease

00:23:53.960 that

00:23:55.320 native

00:23:55.680 peoples

00:23:56.400 in

00:23:56.720 Canada

00:23:57.100 were

00:23:57.680 going to

00:23:57.880 have

00:23:58.000 to

00:23:58.120 adapt

00:23:58.540 learn

00:23:59.440 to

00:23:59.580 speak

00:23:59.760 English

00:24:00.120 learn

00:24:00.640 agriculture

00:24:01.160 and

00:24:02.000 they

00:24:02.160 wanted

00:24:02.660 these

00:24:02.960 schools

00:24:03.440 they

00:24:04.060 lobbied

00:24:04.340 for

00:24:04.480 these

00:24:04.680 schools

00:24:05.020 to be

00:24:05.300 set

00:24:05.460 up

00:24:05.700 so

00:24:06.380 their

00:24:06.600 youngsters

00:24:06.960 could

00:24:07.300 learn

00:24:07.740 a

00:24:08.200 new

00:24:08.340 way

00:24:08.520 of

00:24:08.680 life

00:24:08.940 and

00:24:09.580 having

00:24:10.020 adapted

00:24:10.440 could

00:24:10.740 preserve

00:24:11.140 as much

00:24:11.720 of the

00:24:11.940 old

00:24:12.100 as they

00:24:12.400 could

00:24:12.720 that's

00:24:13.900 why

00:24:14.040 they

00:24:14.140 were

00:24:14.260 set

00:24:14.420 up

00:24:14.680 in

00:24:15.700 response

00:24:16.120 to

00:24:16.540 native

00:24:17.560 demand

00:24:18.580 and

00:24:19.380 you

00:24:21.100 will

00:24:21.260 find

00:24:21.560 that

00:24:21.800 even

00:24:22.220 into

00:24:22.580 the

00:24:22.820 1920s

00:24:24.060 out

00:24:24.760 west

00:24:25.120 in

00:24:25.360 Canada

00:24:25.740 First

00:24:26.960 Nations

00:24:27.340 were

00:24:27.680 lobbying

00:24:28.000 for

00:24:28.220 residential

00:24:28.560 schools

00:24:29.120 now

00:24:29.860 if

00:24:30.240 the

00:24:30.400 record

00:24:30.700 of

00:24:30.840 the

00:24:30.920 schools

00:24:31.200 had

00:24:31.400 been

00:24:31.580 as

00:24:31.980 appalling

00:24:33.520 as

00:24:34.040 universally

00:24:34.500 appalling

00:24:34.960 as it

00:24:35.400 is put

00:24:35.660 about

00:24:35.920 now

00:24:36.280 that

00:24:36.880 would

00:24:37.020 not

00:24:37.180 have

00:24:37.320 happened

00:24:37.620 we

00:24:42.280 have

00:24:42.580 documented

00:24:43.400 evidence

00:24:44.060 of

00:24:44.540 abuse

00:24:45.160 of

00:24:45.700 horrific

00:24:46.180 things

00:24:46.540 happening

00:24:46.940 but

00:24:47.780 you

00:24:47.900 say

00:24:48.140 that

00:24:48.420 the

00:24:49.240 media

00:24:49.460 weren't

00:24:49.780 interested

00:24:50.160 in

00:24:50.380 the

00:24:50.480 1990s

00:24:51.200 I

00:24:51.380 was

00:24:52.080 on

00:24:52.600 Parliament

00:24:52.920 Hill

00:24:53.280 in

00:24:53.600 2009

00:24:55.100 or so

00:24:55.660 when

00:24:56.080 then

00:24:57.040 Prime

00:24:57.300 Minister

00:24:57.540 Stephen

00:24:57.920 Harper

00:24:58.260 gave

00:24:59.020 the

00:24:59.180 formal

00:24:59.440 apology

00:24:59.920 for

00:25:00.180 residential

00:25:00.580 schools

00:25:00.940 and

00:25:01.080 there

00:25:01.160 were

00:25:01.260 a lot

00:25:01.480 of

00:25:02.040 people

00:25:03.120 who

00:25:03.320 had

00:25:03.460 attended

00:25:03.760 the

00:25:03.980 schools

00:25:04.260 there

00:25:04.660 there

00:25:05.440 were

00:25:05.720 chiefs

00:25:06.720 and

00:25:06.820 different

00:25:07.020 elders

00:25:07.420 and

00:25:07.820 people

00:25:08.740 coming

00:25:09.120 for

00:25:09.880 the

00:25:10.080 apology

00:25:10.500 and

00:25:11.060 I

00:25:11.160 spoke

00:25:11.320 to

00:25:11.480 a lot

00:25:11.780 of

00:25:11.980 people

00:25:12.540 who

00:25:12.660 had

00:25:12.720 gone

00:25:12.880 through

00:25:13.060 the

00:25:13.200 schools

00:25:13.560 and

00:25:14.640 I

00:25:15.000 heard

00:25:15.400 the

00:25:15.660 horror

00:25:15.900 stories

00:25:16.340 but

00:25:16.500 I

00:25:16.600 also

00:25:16.780 remember

00:25:17.080 talking

00:25:17.380 to

00:25:17.540 several

00:25:17.780 who

00:25:17.960 said

00:25:18.280 well

00:25:19.060 it's

00:25:19.340 important

00:25:19.720 to

00:25:20.680 acknowledge

00:25:21.160 the

00:25:21.400 horror

00:25:21.620 stories

00:25:22.020 and

00:25:22.380 to

00:25:22.560 know

00:25:22.800 that

00:25:22.980 that's

00:25:23.260 there

00:25:23.400 but

00:25:23.580 that

00:25:23.820 was

00:25:24.000 not

00:25:24.200 my

00:25:24.420 experience

00:25:25.020 my

00:25:25.660 experience

00:25:26.180 was

00:25:26.420 mainly

00:25:26.680 positive

00:25:27.180 those

00:25:28.260 stories

00:25:28.700 aren't

00:25:29.340 told

00:25:29.780 now

00:25:30.040 we

00:25:30.220 we

00:25:30.260 seem

00:25:31.880 to

00:25:32.480 wash

00:25:33.760 history

00:25:34.060 I

00:25:34.180 won't

00:25:34.300 say

00:25:34.440 whitewash

00:25:34.920 history

00:25:35.240 because

00:25:35.500 I'm

00:25:35.720 not

00:25:36.040 sure

00:25:36.200 what

00:25:36.420 we're

00:25:36.580 doing

00:25:36.840 with

00:25:37.080 it

00:25:37.220 but

00:25:37.420 we

00:25:37.660 everything

00:25:40.220 is

00:25:40.700 taken

00:25:41.240 down

00:25:41.580 to

00:25:41.860 something

00:25:45.300 that's

00:25:45.660 easy

00:25:45.980 to

00:25:46.160 understand

00:25:46.700 and

00:25:47.020 easy

00:25:47.340 to

00:25:47.520 vilify

00:25:47.880 I

00:25:48.120 think

00:25:48.360 is

00:25:48.600 what

00:25:49.020 we're

00:25:49.200 doing

00:25:49.500 so

00:25:50.100 that's

00:25:51.560 most

00:25:51.820 easy

00:25:52.100 for

00:25:52.760 the

00:25:52.940 likes

00:25:53.180 of

00:25:53.340 me

00:25:53.480 here

00:25:53.640 in

00:25:53.740 Britain

00:25:53.920 to

00:25:54.120 see

00:25:54.280 in

00:25:54.460 terms

00:25:54.800 of

00:25:55.040 the

00:25:55.300 way

00:25:55.560 in

00:25:55.640 which

00:25:55.740 slavery

00:25:56.020 is

00:25:56.180 talked

00:25:56.380 about

00:25:56.620 so

00:25:56.920 yes

00:25:58.200 for

00:25:59.960 over

00:26:01.080 150

00:26:01.460 years

00:26:02.080 some

00:26:02.840 Britons

00:26:03.440 were

00:26:03.880 involved

00:26:04.440 in

00:26:04.920 trading

00:26:06.160 slaves

00:26:06.760 across

00:26:06.980 the

00:26:07.100 Atlantic

00:26:07.320 some

00:26:07.600 Britons

00:26:07.900 were

00:26:08.040 involved

00:26:08.380 in

00:26:08.520 making

00:26:08.700 many

00:26:08.960 repletations

00:26:09.720 in

00:26:09.960 the

00:26:10.240 West

00:26:10.820 Indies

00:26:11.220 and

00:26:11.380 across

00:26:11.700 along

00:26:12.080 the

00:26:12.420 eastern

00:26:13.060 seaboard

00:26:13.620 of

00:26:13.940 North

00:26:14.640 America

00:26:15.060 and

00:26:16.940 the

00:26:18.960 treatment

00:26:19.200 of

00:26:19.380 slaves

00:26:19.720 did

00:26:19.960 vary

00:26:20.260 but

00:26:20.580 at

00:26:21.060 its

00:26:21.200 worst

00:26:21.460 it

00:26:21.620 was

00:26:21.780 absolutely

00:26:22.260 appalling

00:26:22.680 so

00:26:25.060 no

00:26:27.060 justification

00:26:28.380 of

00:26:29.020 British

00:26:30.100 involvement

00:26:30.460 in

00:26:30.600 slavery

00:26:30.820 during

00:26:31.120 that

00:26:31.340 period

00:26:31.740 however

00:26:33.460 as

00:26:33.940 I've

00:26:34.120 just

00:26:34.260 said

00:26:34.560 after

00:26:35.900 1807

00:26:36.560 the

00:26:36.780 British

00:26:37.100 led

00:26:38.140 the

00:26:38.300 world

00:26:38.600 by

00:26:39.020 using

00:26:39.420 their

00:26:39.640 imperial

00:26:40.020 power

00:26:40.320 to

00:26:40.460 suppress

00:26:40.720 slavery

00:26:41.120 worldwide

00:26:41.780 from

00:26:42.300 1807

00:26:42.860 until

00:26:43.140 the

00:26:43.320 empire

00:26:43.580 dissolved

00:26:43.980 in

00:26:44.120 the

00:26:44.200 1960s

00:26:45.020 so

00:26:45.560 the

00:26:46.860 truth

00:26:47.260 is

00:26:47.600 both

00:26:48.620 happened

00:26:48.980 the

00:26:49.960 bad

00:26:50.180 stuff

00:26:50.500 and

00:26:50.980 the

00:26:51.100 admirable

00:26:51.380 stuff

00:26:51.780 and

00:26:52.680 so

00:26:53.160 with

00:26:53.380 the

00:26:53.480 residential

00:26:53.720 schools

00:26:54.140 there

00:26:54.340 were

00:26:54.500 horror

00:26:54.720 stories

00:26:55.140 also

00:26:55.860 good

00:26:56.100 stories

00:26:56.540 and

00:26:57.480 I'm

00:26:58.080 not

00:26:58.280 arguing

00:26:58.660 and no

00:26:58.920 one

00:26:59.040 should

00:26:59.220 argue

00:26:59.600 that

00:27:00.600 we

00:27:00.860 should

00:27:01.140 overlook

00:27:01.680 the

00:27:01.880 bad

00:27:02.080 stuff

00:27:02.400 all

00:27:02.960 I'm

00:27:03.160 arguing

00:27:03.420 for

00:27:03.840 is

00:27:04.880 that

00:27:05.060 we

00:27:05.220 should

00:27:05.460 recognize

00:27:06.020 the

00:27:06.640 truth

00:27:06.800 about

00:27:06.980 the

00:27:07.100 past

00:27:07.360 is

00:27:07.520 it

00:27:07.660 was

00:27:08.180 mixed

00:27:08.760 and

00:27:09.400 we

00:27:09.520 want

00:27:09.640 the

00:27:09.780 whole

00:27:10.020 truth

00:27:10.400 not

00:27:10.940 just

00:27:11.400 the

00:27:11.800 depressing

00:27:12.920 demoralizing

00:27:13.800 denigrative

00:27:14.860 pejorative

00:27:15.640 part

00:27:16.020 Nigel

00:27:17.720 we've

00:27:17.920 got

00:27:18.040 to

00:27:18.140 take

00:27:18.320 a

00:27:18.440 quick

00:27:18.620 break

00:27:18.860 but

00:27:19.140 when

00:27:19.520 we

00:27:19.660 come

00:27:19.840 back

00:27:20.180 there's

00:27:21.380 an

00:27:21.500 interesting

00:27:21.880 comparison

00:27:22.420 you

00:27:22.660 make

00:27:22.900 about

00:27:23.280 what

00:27:23.560 happened

00:27:23.960 in

00:27:24.340 India

00:27:25.740 as

00:27:26.140 part

00:27:26.380 of

00:27:26.660 British

00:27:27.020 colonial

00:27:27.380 history

00:27:27.800 and

00:27:27.920 I

00:27:27.980 want

00:27:28.100 to

00:27:28.180 ask

00:27:28.340 you

00:27:28.440 about

00:27:28.660 that

00:27:28.980 this

00:27:29.640 is

00:27:29.760 the

00:27:29.880 full

00:27:30.020 comment

00:27:30.320 podcast

00:27:30.840 I'm

00:27:31.180 Brian

00:27:31.420 Lily

00:27:31.660 when I

00:27:33.080 found

00:27:33.320 out

00:27:33.500 my

00:27:33.700 friend

00:27:33.980 got

00:27:34.180 a

00:27:34.320 great

00:27:34.640 deal

00:27:34.920 on

00:27:35.140 a

00:27:35.280 wool

00:27:35.440 coat

00:27:35.700 from

00:27:35.920 winners

00:27:36.240 I

00:27:36.820 started

00:27:37.300 wondering

00:27:37.820 is

00:27:38.460 every

00:27:39.020 fabulous

00:27:39.540 item

00:27:39.820 I

00:27:40.000 see

00:27:40.220 from

00:27:40.480 winners

00:27:40.840 like

00:27:41.540 that

00:27:41.820 woman

00:27:42.100 over

00:27:42.320 there

00:27:42.600 with

00:27:42.780 the

00:27:42.920 designer

00:27:43.200 jeans

00:27:43.740 are

00:27:44.180 those

00:27:44.620 from

00:27:44.860 winners

00:27:45.240 ooh

00:27:46.000 are

00:27:46.340 those

00:27:46.520 beautiful

00:27:46.840 gold

00:27:47.140 earrings

00:27:47.680 did

00:27:48.160 she

00:27:48.280 pay

00:27:48.440 full

00:27:48.600 price

00:27:49.080 or

00:27:49.500 that

00:27:49.620 leather

00:27:49.820 tote

00:27:50.200 or

00:27:50.480 that

00:27:50.620 cashmere

00:27:50.980 sweater

00:27:51.300 or

00:27:51.700 those

00:27:51.900 knee-high

00:27:52.220 boots

00:27:52.780 that

00:27:53.200 dress

00:27:53.680 that

00:27:54.000 jacket

00:27:54.400 those

00:27:54.700 shoes

00:27:55.340 is

00:27:55.740 anyone

00:27:56.320 paying

00:27:56.740 full

00:27:56.960 price

00:27:57.280 for

00:27:57.520 anything

00:27:58.040 stop

00:27:58.960 wondering

00:27:59.440 start

00:28:00.000 winning

00:28:00.380 winners

00:28:01.020 find

00:28:01.500 fabulous

00:28:02.060 for

00:28:02.320 less

00:28:02.700 if

00:28:04.320 you

00:28:04.620 want

00:28:04.920 to

00:28:05.220 have

00:28:05.700 a

00:28:05.940 fuller

00:28:06.260 view

00:28:06.520 of

00:28:06.800 history

00:28:07.160 definitely

00:28:08.380 recommend

00:28:09.000 colonialism

00:28:09.560 a moral

00:28:10.080 reckoning

00:28:10.560 it

00:28:11.340 comes

00:28:11.720 out

00:28:12.040 in

00:28:12.580 North

00:28:12.920 America

00:28:13.180 the

00:28:13.380 first

00:28:13.840 week

00:28:14.160 of

00:28:14.600 May

00:28:15.080 and

00:28:17.240 Nigel

00:28:17.820 you

00:28:18.480 make

00:28:18.700 an

00:28:18.840 interesting

00:28:19.260 comparison

00:28:19.780 in

00:28:20.880 your

00:28:21.020 book

00:28:21.200 and

00:28:21.320 you

00:28:21.420 say

00:28:21.660 you

00:28:22.480 know

00:28:22.600 as

00:28:22.740 you're

00:28:22.900 discussing

00:28:23.340 this

00:28:23.560 and

00:28:23.720 you

00:28:24.040 are

00:28:24.260 not

00:28:24.700 a

00:28:24.840 historian

00:28:25.240 you

00:28:25.880 are

00:28:26.040 an

00:28:26.160 ethicist

00:28:26.700 you've

00:28:28.000 studied

00:28:28.240 history

00:28:28.560 I

00:28:28.720 believe

00:28:28.900 but

00:28:29.140 that's

00:28:30.080 not

00:28:30.240 your

00:28:30.540 main

00:28:31.280 academic

00:28:31.840 area

00:28:32.820 but

00:28:33.340 you

00:28:33.460 say

00:28:33.620 from

00:28:33.800 an

00:28:33.940 ethical

00:28:34.220 point

00:28:34.580 of

00:28:34.740 view

00:28:34.900 look

00:28:36.080 at

00:28:36.220 two

00:28:36.360 different

00:28:36.640 things

00:28:37.000 and

00:28:37.140 I'd

00:28:37.580 like

00:28:37.720 you

00:28:37.820 to

00:28:37.920 explain

00:28:38.240 this

00:28:38.460 to

00:28:38.600 me

00:28:38.760 I've

00:28:39.460 long

00:28:40.020 cited

00:28:40.420 Charles

00:28:42.580 James

00:28:42.900 Napier

00:28:43.220 one of

00:28:43.500 the

00:28:43.620 governors

00:28:43.920 in

00:28:44.180 India

00:28:44.640 as

00:28:45.260 an

00:28:45.380 example

00:28:45.820 of

00:28:46.460 colonialism

00:28:48.200 not

00:28:48.780 always

00:28:49.060 being

00:28:49.280 bad

00:28:49.600 and

00:28:49.800 he's

00:28:50.360 the

00:28:50.620 governor

00:28:51.460 who

00:28:51.900 Britain

00:28:53.560 had

00:28:53.820 banned

00:28:54.240 the

00:28:54.540 practice

00:28:54.940 of

00:28:55.220 sati

00:28:55.680 and that

00:28:56.100 was

00:28:56.400 when

00:28:56.880 Hindu

00:28:58.420 women

00:28:59.580 would be

00:29:00.040 burned

00:29:00.380 on the

00:29:00.680 funeral

00:29:00.940 pyres

00:29:01.380 of

00:29:02.420 their

00:29:02.880 husbands

00:29:03.320 if their

00:29:03.720 husbands

00:29:04.000 died

00:29:04.320 first

00:29:04.660 while the

00:29:04.960 wife died

00:29:05.360 on the

00:29:05.620 funeral

00:29:05.860 pyre

00:29:06.260 and

00:29:07.140 the

00:29:07.860 British

00:29:08.100 banned

00:29:08.420 that

00:29:08.720 and the

00:29:08.960 Hindu

00:29:09.140 priest

00:29:09.400 went and

00:29:09.720 complained

00:29:10.060 to him

00:29:10.340 and he

00:29:10.520 said

00:29:10.740 well this

00:29:11.220 burning

00:29:11.600 of

00:29:11.800 widows

00:29:12.060 is your

00:29:12.400 custom

00:29:12.780 prepare

00:29:13.180 the

00:29:13.380 funeral

00:29:13.660 pyre

00:29:14.060 but my

00:29:14.760 nation

00:29:15.020 also has

00:29:15.560 a

00:29:15.700 custom

00:29:15.940 when

00:29:16.260 men

00:29:17.180 burn

00:29:17.580 women

00:29:17.900 alive

00:29:18.340 we hang

00:29:18.840 them

00:29:19.020 and confiscate

00:29:19.800 all their

00:29:20.060 property

00:29:20.480 my

00:29:21.100 carpenter

00:29:21.520 shall

00:29:21.740 therefore

00:29:22.160 erect

00:29:22.460 gibbets

00:29:22.980 on which

00:29:23.320 will hang

00:29:23.760 all

00:29:23.920 concerned

00:29:24.420 when the

00:29:24.820 widow

00:29:24.960 is

00:29:25.160 consumed

00:29:25.560 so let's

00:29:26.400 all act

00:29:27.100 according to

00:29:27.640 our national

00:29:28.060 customs

00:29:28.540 that really

00:29:30.240 helped

00:29:30.820 end the

00:29:31.920 practice of

00:29:32.460 burning

00:29:32.960 women

00:29:33.260 alive

00:29:33.660 which

00:29:33.900 I

00:29:34.480 don't know

00:29:35.600 how you

00:29:35.900 don't look

00:29:36.360 at that

00:29:36.600 as a

00:29:36.780 good

00:29:36.900 thing

00:29:37.160 but

00:29:37.900 you

00:29:39.300 rightly

00:29:39.760 point

00:29:40.140 out

00:29:40.320 okay

00:29:40.500 so

00:29:40.700 that's

00:29:41.540 good

00:29:41.820 but

00:29:42.100 how do

00:29:42.900 we

00:29:43.020 balance

00:29:43.360 that off

00:29:43.800 against

00:29:44.040 other

00:29:44.360 things

00:29:44.640 that

00:29:44.820 happened

00:29:45.080 like

00:29:45.300 Armistar

00:29:45.940 which

00:29:46.760 was

00:29:47.220 a

00:29:47.660 massacre

00:29:48.000 just

00:29:48.900 before I

00:29:49.860 get on

00:29:50.220 to the

00:29:50.440 really

00:29:50.700 crucial

00:29:51.200 question

00:29:51.560 of how

00:29:51.840 you

00:29:52.120 weigh

00:29:53.000 these

00:29:53.200 things

00:29:53.380 up

00:29:53.920 as a

00:29:54.700 whole

00:29:55.020 let me

00:29:55.700 just

00:29:55.860 comment

00:29:56.080 on

00:29:56.440 the

00:29:56.940 abolition

00:29:57.380 of

00:29:57.720 sati

00:29:58.120 this

00:29:58.500 practice

00:29:59.520 of

00:30:00.100 self

00:30:01.000 immolation

00:30:01.460 of

00:30:01.740 widows

00:30:02.620 so yes

00:30:04.640 when the

00:30:04.900 British

00:30:05.060 came across

00:30:05.540 this

00:30:05.800 in the

00:30:06.080 1820s

00:30:06.760 they

00:30:06.980 were

00:30:07.380 appalled

00:30:07.720 by it

00:30:08.060 but there

00:30:08.240 was a

00:30:08.460 discussion

00:30:08.820 about

00:30:09.220 how

00:30:10.800 best

00:30:11.300 to

00:30:11.660 deal

00:30:12.140 with it

00:30:12.540 because

00:30:12.960 the

00:30:13.320 worry

00:30:13.540 was

00:30:13.900 if you

00:30:14.360 try

00:30:15.340 and ban

00:30:15.740 it

00:30:15.880 and of

00:30:16.280 course

00:30:16.400 British

00:30:16.680 power

00:30:16.980 was not

00:30:17.340 omnipotent

00:30:18.780 British

00:30:19.660 power

00:30:19.800 was

00:30:19.920 limited

00:30:20.340 the

00:30:20.840 worry

00:30:21.080 is

00:30:21.340 that

00:30:21.560 you

00:30:21.760 so

00:30:22.200 incense

00:30:23.600 native

00:30:24.960 peoples

00:30:25.440 that

00:30:26.240 they

00:30:28.120 rise up

00:30:28.960 and revolt

00:30:29.340 and then

00:30:29.640 you've

00:30:29.780 got a

00:30:30.040 revolt on

00:30:30.460 your hands

00:30:30.840 so the

00:30:31.080 question is

00:30:31.400 how to

00:30:32.240 deal with

00:30:32.880 this

00:30:33.200 best

00:30:34.380 and

00:30:34.720 some

00:30:35.700 people

00:30:35.960 said

00:30:36.180 we need

00:30:36.480 to do

00:30:36.780 gradually

00:30:37.220 but

00:30:38.500 interestingly

00:30:38.900 it

00:30:39.180 was

00:30:39.340 an

00:30:39.640 Indian

00:30:40.120 social

00:30:40.620 reformer

00:30:41.540 Rammohan

00:30:42.160 Roy

00:30:42.480 who

00:30:43.860 campaigned

00:30:45.000 for

00:30:45.480 the

00:30:46.500 East

00:30:46.720 India

00:30:46.940 company

00:30:47.260 which

00:30:47.720 then

00:30:48.020 ruled

00:30:48.340 India

00:30:48.700 to

00:30:49.200 abolish

00:30:50.060 it

00:30:50.260 and

00:30:51.940 Roy's

00:30:52.620 view

00:30:52.900 prevailed

00:30:53.360 and in

00:30:53.640 fact

00:30:53.800 the

00:30:54.080 governor

00:30:54.660 general

00:30:54.960 did

00:30:55.200 abolish

00:30:55.540 it

00:30:55.660 and

00:30:55.780 there

00:30:55.900 wasn't

00:30:56.360 any

00:30:57.000 widespread

00:30:57.360 popular

00:30:57.760 reaction

00:30:58.160 but

00:30:58.360 again

00:30:58.980 Brian

00:30:59.520 going back

00:30:59.860 to the

00:31:00.240 discussion

00:31:00.940 of how

00:31:01.320 to

00:31:01.460 abolish

00:31:01.760 slavery

00:31:02.180 there

00:31:02.760 was a

00:31:03.060 discussion

00:31:03.440 about

00:31:03.660 do we

00:31:04.080 do it

00:31:04.300 gradually

00:31:04.600 or

00:31:04.880 do we

00:31:05.260 do it

00:31:05.340 immediately

00:31:05.700 because

00:31:06.160 you're

00:31:06.660 worried

00:31:06.840 about

00:31:07.000 what

00:31:07.180 consequences

00:31:07.660 you're

00:31:07.900 going to

00:31:08.040 have

00:31:08.300 if you

00:31:08.560 do it

00:31:08.920 abruptly

00:31:09.500 one

00:31:10.280 concern

00:31:10.960 about

00:31:11.380 abolishing

00:31:12.220 slavery

00:31:12.520 abruptly

00:31:12.940 is

00:31:13.220 does that

00:31:13.980 mean

00:31:14.180 that

00:31:14.320 the

00:31:14.680 plantations

00:31:15.720 become

00:31:16.400 bankrupt

00:31:17.220 and

00:31:17.500 insolvent

00:31:18.000 how

00:31:19.060 then

00:31:19.420 are

00:31:19.700 the

00:31:19.840 freed

00:31:20.080 slaves

00:31:20.300 going

00:31:20.460 to

00:31:20.520 be

00:31:20.640 employed

00:31:21.020 so

00:31:22.680 that

00:31:23.500 on

00:31:24.780 the

00:31:26.220 abolition

00:31:26.620 of

00:31:27.220 Satie

00:31:27.860 now

00:31:28.160 as I

00:31:29.880 say

00:31:30.060 in my

00:31:30.320 book

00:31:30.600 in the

00:31:31.040 conclusion

00:31:31.420 I

00:31:31.640 say

00:31:31.980 reviewing

00:31:33.420 the

00:31:33.660 history

00:31:33.880 of

00:31:34.020 British

00:31:34.180 empire

00:31:34.520 we

00:31:34.760 can

00:31:34.920 come

00:31:35.080 up

00:31:35.200 with

00:31:35.320 a

00:31:35.460 list

00:31:35.680 of

00:31:35.960 evils

00:31:36.680 and

00:31:36.800 injustices

00:31:37.440 slavery

00:31:38.800 economic

00:31:39.980 disruption

00:31:40.560 the

00:31:41.960 inadvertent

00:31:42.520 spread

00:31:42.760 of

00:31:42.900 disease

00:31:43.380 but on

00:31:44.660 the

00:31:44.740 other

00:31:44.860 hand

00:31:45.060 you've

00:31:45.280 got

00:31:45.540 a

00:31:46.280 list

00:31:46.880 of

00:31:47.320 benefits

00:31:47.940 the

00:31:48.700 abolition

00:31:49.100 of

00:31:49.440 in-germain

00:31:49.880 practices

00:31:50.300 like

00:31:50.760 sooty

00:31:51.360 or

00:31:51.800 child

00:31:52.260 sacrifice

00:31:52.940 or

00:31:53.420 slavery

00:31:54.300 or

00:31:54.780 infanticide

00:31:55.700 and

00:31:57.440 the

00:31:57.800 spread

00:31:58.120 of the

00:31:58.360 rule

00:31:58.480 of

00:31:58.620 law

00:31:58.960 the

00:31:59.220 pacification

00:31:59.840 of

00:32:00.500 otherwise

00:32:01.540 warring

00:32:02.560 peoples

00:32:03.520 you've

00:32:03.900 got

00:32:04.000 these

00:32:04.160 two

00:32:04.520 sets

00:32:05.060 of

00:32:05.280 goods

00:32:05.480 and

00:32:05.620 evils

00:32:05.960 you've

00:32:07.200 got

00:32:07.440 the

00:32:08.480 number

00:32:09.500 of

00:32:09.660 women

00:32:09.860 saved

00:32:10.280 from

00:32:10.440 the

00:32:10.540 funeral

00:32:10.760 pyres

00:32:11.340 versus

00:32:12.460 the

00:32:13.480 several

00:32:13.800 hundred

00:32:13.980 people

00:32:14.360 massacred

00:32:15.480 at

00:32:16.500 Amritsar

00:32:17.100 in

00:32:17.260 1919

00:32:17.940 19

00:32:18.200 which

00:32:18.960 weighs

00:32:19.200 more

00:32:19.400 heavily

00:32:19.700 well

00:32:20.520 I

00:32:20.620 think

00:32:20.800 just

00:32:21.200 to

00:32:21.320 ask

00:32:21.500 the

00:32:21.620 question

00:32:21.980 is

00:32:23.020 to

00:32:23.160 reveal

00:32:23.520 its

00:32:23.660 absurdity

00:32:24.100 you

00:32:24.220 can't

00:32:24.460 answer

00:32:24.740 it

00:32:24.960 in

00:32:25.200 terms

00:32:25.420 of

00:32:25.600 weighing

00:32:25.880 things

00:32:26.160 more

00:32:26.340 heavily

00:32:26.640 you've

00:32:27.940 just

00:32:28.040 got

00:32:28.180 two

00:32:28.420 sets

00:32:28.700 of

00:32:28.840 goods

00:32:29.000 and

00:32:29.140 evils

00:32:29.400 as

00:32:29.660 you

00:32:29.780 do

00:32:29.980 in

00:32:30.220 most

00:32:31.220 if

00:32:32.000 you

00:32:32.080 look

00:32:32.220 at

00:32:32.300 the

00:32:32.380 history

00:32:32.580 of

00:32:32.740 most

00:32:32.960 long

00:32:33.180 standing

00:32:33.400 states

00:32:33.760 you're

00:32:33.920 going

00:32:34.000 to

00:32:34.080 have

00:32:34.400 bunches

00:32:34.780 of

00:32:34.880 goods

00:32:35.040 and

00:32:35.480 evils

00:32:35.780 so

00:32:36.540 what

00:32:36.660 I

00:32:36.780 do

00:32:36.900 is

00:32:37.000 we

00:32:37.480 can't

00:32:37.700 sort

00:32:37.840 it

00:32:37.980 out

00:32:38.060 that

00:32:38.220 way

00:32:38.360 what

00:32:38.500 we

00:32:38.620 can

00:32:38.820 say

00:32:39.100 is

00:32:39.260 well

00:32:39.460 most

00:32:42.940 of us

00:32:43.180 would

00:32:43.300 agree

00:32:43.520 that

00:32:43.680 there

00:32:43.760 was

00:32:43.840 something

00:32:44.100 centrally

00:32:44.800 evil

00:32:45.840 about

00:32:46.240 the

00:32:46.460 Nazi

00:32:46.700 regime

00:32:47.060 in

00:32:47.220 Germany

00:32:47.500 it

00:32:47.940 was

00:32:48.060 essentially

00:32:48.520 racist

00:32:49.100 essentially

00:32:50.080 murderous

00:32:50.760 and

00:32:51.680 massively

00:32:52.420 so

00:32:52.860 so

00:32:53.500 was

00:32:53.780 there

00:32:53.920 something

00:32:54.320 can

00:32:55.200 we

00:32:55.320 say

00:32:55.460 the

00:32:55.600 British

00:32:55.860 Empire

00:32:56.100 that

00:32:56.320 it

00:32:56.400 was

00:32:56.500 similar

00:32:56.740 to

00:32:56.940 that

00:32:57.200 and

00:32:57.520 a

00:32:57.720 lot

00:32:57.860 of

00:32:58.000 the

00:32:58.220 popular

00:33:00.080 anti-colonial

00:33:01.620 activist

00:33:02.200 critics

00:33:02.560 of the

00:33:02.800 British

00:33:02.980 Empire

00:33:03.220 wanted

00:33:03.600 to

00:33:03.780 say

00:33:04.100 that

00:33:04.860 Churchill

00:33:05.200 was

00:33:05.480 like

00:33:05.700 Hitler

00:33:06.040 or

00:33:06.400 that

00:33:06.900 various

00:33:08.040 bits

00:33:08.340 of

00:33:08.460 the

00:33:08.560 British

00:33:08.720 Empire

00:33:09.060 behaved

00:33:09.600 like

00:33:10.060 the

00:33:10.260 Nazis

00:33:10.580 and

00:33:11.680 so

00:33:11.840 I

00:33:11.940 look

00:33:12.100 at

00:33:12.200 that

00:33:12.340 in

00:33:12.460 my

00:33:12.580 book

00:33:12.780 and

00:33:12.900 I

00:33:13.020 say

00:33:13.240 no

00:33:13.840 folks

00:33:14.180 really

00:33:14.500 not

00:33:14.780 there

00:33:14.940 was

00:33:15.060 nothing

00:33:15.480 in

00:33:16.200 the

00:33:16.300 history

00:33:16.440 of the

00:33:16.840 British

00:33:17.020 Empire

00:33:17.280 that

00:33:17.480 was

00:33:17.620 similar

00:33:17.880 to

00:33:18.060 what

00:33:18.180 happened

00:33:18.440 in

00:33:18.620 Nazi

00:33:18.980 Germany

00:33:19.780 so

00:33:21.560 then

00:33:21.780 I

00:33:21.900 say

00:33:22.040 we

00:33:22.220 can't

00:33:22.640 say

00:33:22.800 it

00:33:22.900 was

00:33:22.980 essentially

00:33:23.360 racist

00:33:23.740 or

00:33:23.980 essentially

00:33:24.340 exploitative

00:33:24.920 or

00:33:25.480 essentially

00:33:25.840 given

00:33:26.140 to

00:33:26.300 wanted

00:33:26.480 violence

00:33:27.000 that's

00:33:27.720 the

00:33:27.800 second

00:33:28.020 stage

00:33:28.300 and

00:33:28.400 the

00:33:28.520 third

00:33:28.720 stage

00:33:29.020 is

00:33:29.160 to

00:33:29.280 say

00:33:29.540 what

00:33:30.820 we

00:33:30.960 can

00:33:31.140 say

00:33:31.340 also

00:33:31.660 is

00:33:32.020 that

00:33:32.200 from

00:33:32.840 the

00:33:32.980 early

00:33:33.160 1800s

00:33:34.500 starting

00:33:35.200 with

00:33:35.420 slavery

00:33:35.860 expanding

00:33:36.940 to

00:33:37.380 a

00:33:37.680 wider

00:33:37.880 concern

00:33:38.420 for

00:33:38.720 the

00:33:38.900 plight

00:33:39.220 of

00:33:39.520 native

00:33:40.560 peoples

00:33:40.900 in

00:33:41.180 Australia

00:33:41.620 Africa

00:33:42.220 and

00:33:42.680 Canada

00:33:43.420 there

00:33:44.040 was a

00:33:44.260 growing

00:33:44.540 humanitarian

00:33:45.000 concern

00:33:45.740 allied

00:33:48.100 to

00:33:48.580 a

00:33:49.480 growing

00:33:49.680 liberal

00:33:50.100 movement

00:33:50.720 whereby

00:33:51.520 the

00:33:52.440 different

00:33:52.620 bits

00:33:52.800 of

00:33:52.900 the

00:33:53.020 empire

00:33:53.420 starting

00:33:53.960 with

00:33:54.140 Canada

00:33:54.480 in

00:33:54.740 the

00:33:54.820 1860s

00:33:55.520 then

00:33:56.020 Australia

00:33:56.340 New

00:33:56.580 Zealand

00:33:56.860 South

00:33:57.160 Africa

00:33:57.520 become

00:33:59.060 increasingly

00:33:59.500 independent

00:33:59.960 so

00:34:00.360 there's

00:34:00.520 a

00:34:00.600 recognition

00:34:00.980 that

00:34:01.280 Britain

00:34:01.500 can't

00:34:01.840 retain

00:34:02.180 tight

00:34:02.480 control

00:34:02.880 over

00:34:03.220 the

00:34:04.080 empire

00:34:04.320 has

00:34:04.560 to

00:34:04.680 be

00:34:04.920 a

00:34:05.520 more

00:34:05.680 loosely

00:34:06.020 associated

00:34:07.300 group

00:34:07.660 of

00:34:08.360 sympathetic

00:34:10.240 states

00:34:11.200 and

00:34:11.620 that

00:34:11.760 was

00:34:12.040 extended

00:34:12.680 to

00:34:12.980 India

00:34:13.360 after

00:34:13.700 the

00:34:13.860 first

00:34:14.040 world

00:34:14.260 war

00:34:14.540 so

00:34:14.700 there's

00:34:14.880 a

00:34:14.940 sense

00:34:15.120 in

00:34:15.220 which

00:34:15.340 the

00:34:15.580 empire

00:34:16.000 has

00:34:16.260 to

00:34:16.400 evolve

00:34:16.760 from

00:34:16.980 an

00:34:17.100 empire

00:34:17.520 into

00:34:18.080 what

00:34:18.260 it

00:34:18.360 became

00:34:18.760 a

00:34:19.400 commonwealth

00:34:19.960 of

00:34:20.760 sympathetic

00:34:21.540 nations

00:34:22.640 and

00:34:23.560 then

00:34:23.720 finally

00:34:24.100 I

00:34:24.320 say

00:34:24.560 look

00:34:25.620 at

00:34:25.720 how

00:34:25.820 the

00:34:25.940 empire

00:34:26.140 exhausted

00:34:26.500 itself

00:34:27.000 the

00:34:27.760 empire

00:34:28.000 was

00:34:28.180 at

00:34:28.480 its

00:34:28.620 most

00:34:28.960 violent

00:34:29.380 during

00:34:30.180 the

00:34:30.360 second

00:34:30.520 world

00:34:30.760 war

00:34:31.080 fighting

00:34:31.860 Nazi

00:34:32.940 Germany

00:34:33.340 and

00:34:34.240 manifestly

00:34:36.400 racist

00:34:36.920 Japanese

00:34:38.240 imperialism

00:34:39.220 and

00:34:40.020 and

00:34:40.040 the

00:34:42.160 army

00:34:43.860 that

00:34:44.080 fought

00:34:44.400 the

00:34:46.320 part

00:34:47.400 of

00:34:47.480 the

00:34:47.560 empire

00:34:47.760 that

00:34:47.920 contributed

00:34:48.200 most

00:34:48.520 troops

00:34:48.800 was

00:34:49.220 India

00:34:49.500 and

00:34:50.420 Indian

00:34:50.740 troops

00:34:51.080 volunteered

00:34:51.560 to fight

00:34:52.160 against

00:34:52.440 Japan

00:34:52.820 and

00:34:53.820 they

00:34:53.980 also

00:34:54.200 volunteered

00:34:54.600 to fight

00:34:54.900 in

00:34:55.000 Europe

00:34:55.120 my own

00:34:55.480 father

00:34:55.760 fought

00:34:56.080 alongside

00:34:56.620 Indians

00:34:57.520 and was

00:34:57.780 at one

00:34:57.960 point

00:34:58.180 mistaken

00:34:58.640 for

00:34:58.800 an

00:34:58.900 Indian

00:34:59.120 by

00:34:59.400 some

00:34:59.620 GIs

00:34:59.960 in

00:35:00.100 Italy

00:35:00.380 so

00:35:02.140 the

00:35:03.180 empire

00:35:03.520 expended

00:35:04.000 itself

00:35:04.440 fighting

00:35:05.440 the

00:35:06.200 massively

00:35:06.800 murderous

00:35:07.540 racist

00:35:08.480 state

00:35:08.860 of

00:35:09.060 Nazi

00:35:09.420 Germany

00:35:09.840 and

00:35:10.460 between

00:35:10.940 May

00:35:11.560 1940

00:35:12.080 when

00:35:12.600 France

00:35:12.900 fell

00:35:13.200 and

00:35:13.840 June

00:35:14.040 1941

00:35:14.480 when

00:35:14.880 Russia

00:35:15.100 came

00:35:15.340 into

00:35:15.640 the war

00:35:16.320 against

00:35:16.700 Germany

00:35:17.480 the

00:35:18.100 British

00:35:18.300 empire

00:35:18.680 was the

00:35:19.240 only

00:35:19.740 military

00:35:20.820 force

00:35:21.200 in the

00:35:21.520 field

00:35:21.720 against

00:35:22.000 Nazi

00:35:22.280 Germany

00:35:22.640 with the

00:35:23.260 sole exception

00:35:23.720 of

00:35:23.960 Greece

00:35:24.240 now

00:35:25.300 the

00:35:25.600 empire

00:35:25.820 remained

00:35:26.440 a moral

00:35:27.240 mixture

00:35:27.540 to the

00:35:28.000 end

00:35:28.300 but I

00:35:30.120 think

00:35:30.280 you can

00:35:30.540 argue

00:35:30.820 that there

00:35:31.200 were

00:35:31.420 increasingly

00:35:31.900 strong

00:35:32.380 humanitarian

00:35:32.940 liberal

00:35:33.300 strands

00:35:33.840 that

00:35:34.600 determined

00:35:35.260 the

00:35:35.640 empire's

00:35:36.940 direction

00:35:37.720 it's

00:35:40.140 interesting

00:35:40.520 you mentioned

00:35:41.040 your father

00:35:41.680 fighting

00:35:42.100 in Europe

00:35:42.800 alongside

00:35:43.260 Indian

00:35:44.620 soldiers

00:35:44.980 my

00:35:45.180 grandfather

00:35:45.560 fought

00:35:46.140 in

00:35:47.560 Burma

00:35:47.920 alongside

00:35:48.380 Indian

00:35:48.940 and

00:35:49.540 Gurkha

00:35:50.080 troops

00:35:50.460 to

00:35:50.980 liberate

00:35:52.180 Burma

00:35:52.740 from

00:35:52.980 Japan

00:35:53.380 yes

00:35:54.040 so

00:35:55.160 my

00:35:56.120 family

00:35:56.400 background

00:35:56.780 is

00:35:57.320 Irish

00:35:57.940 and

00:35:58.160 Catholic

00:35:58.480 and

00:35:59.080 that

00:35:59.720 part

00:35:59.980 of

00:36:00.060 the

00:36:00.320 empire

00:36:00.960 not

00:36:01.940 exactly

00:36:02.380 great

00:36:02.800 for

00:36:02.980 my

00:36:03.140 people

00:36:03.440 starting

00:36:04.960 from

00:36:05.220 1100

00:36:05.840 until

00:36:06.220 some

00:36:06.760 would

00:36:06.940 say

00:36:07.120 still

00:36:07.320 going

00:36:07.600 on

00:36:07.780 today

00:36:08.000 there's

00:36:08.340 a

00:36:09.020 colonial

00:36:09.360 aspect

00:36:10.000 to

00:36:10.840 Britain's

00:36:11.280 desires

00:36:11.720 on

00:36:12.800 Ireland

00:36:13.580 and

00:36:13.840 at times

00:36:14.700 it

00:36:14.900 had been

00:36:15.320 fine

00:36:15.720 hundreds

00:36:16.240 of years

00:36:16.620 with no

00:36:16.960 problems

00:36:17.340 at other

00:36:17.840 times

00:36:18.140 the penal

00:36:18.580 code

00:36:19.000 and

00:36:19.280 other

00:36:20.180 horrific

00:36:20.600 measures

00:36:21.540 the

00:36:21.740 famine

00:36:22.020 but

00:36:23.800 colonialism

00:36:25.340 is not

00:36:26.480 something

00:36:26.800 that was

00:36:27.060 just

00:36:27.260 practiced

00:36:27.560 by

00:36:27.800 Britain

00:36:28.040 or

00:36:28.200 even

00:36:28.380 just

00:36:28.580 by

00:36:28.780 Western

00:36:29.160 European

00:36:29.740 countries

00:36:30.200 it's

00:36:30.700 gone

00:36:30.900 on

00:36:31.120 forever

00:36:31.460 and

00:36:32.360 there

00:36:32.480 are

00:36:32.580 times

00:36:32.880 when

00:36:33.180 I

00:36:33.560 look

00:36:33.960 and

00:36:34.600 I

00:36:34.960 say

00:36:35.200 well

00:36:35.560 if you're

00:36:36.800 going to be

00:36:37.060 conquered

00:36:37.320 by somebody

00:36:37.940 it's

00:36:38.400 better

00:36:38.860 that it's

00:36:39.260 Britain

00:36:39.560 than some

00:36:40.520 of these

00:36:40.800 other

00:36:41.040 colonial

00:36:41.380 powers

00:36:41.820 because

00:36:42.260 a lot

00:36:43.140 of them

00:36:43.380 were worse

00:36:43.980 am I

00:36:45.240 looking at

00:36:45.600 things

00:36:45.840 through

00:36:46.040 rose

00:36:46.740 colored

00:36:47.060 glasses

00:36:47.460 no

00:36:48.620 I mean

00:36:48.980 I do

00:36:49.400 point

00:36:49.660 out

00:36:49.880 that

00:36:50.180 it's

00:36:52.920 not a

00:36:53.340 coincidence

00:36:53.660 that the

00:36:54.000 British

00:36:54.200 Empire

00:36:54.620 has

00:36:54.900 given

00:36:55.120 birth

00:36:55.560 to

00:36:56.900 the

00:36:57.140 most

00:36:57.620 prosperous

00:36:59.160 and most

00:36:59.600 liberal

00:36:59.960 societies

00:37:00.720 now on

00:37:01.480 earth

00:37:01.780 and the

00:37:02.580 United

00:37:02.880 States

00:37:03.300 of course

00:37:04.540 is part

00:37:05.160 of that

00:37:05.440 it broke

00:37:06.100 off

00:37:06.240 from the

00:37:06.440 empire

00:37:06.600 early

00:37:06.980 but

00:37:07.460 it's

00:37:08.500 general

00:37:09.880 direction

00:37:10.520 was set

00:37:11.160 by

00:37:11.520 British

00:37:12.380 political

00:37:12.720 ideas

00:37:13.320 and then

00:37:14.160 of course

00:37:14.420 Canada

00:37:14.740 Australia

00:37:15.060 New Zealand

00:37:15.600 and

00:37:17.400 actually

00:37:17.780 Israel

00:37:18.420 it's

00:37:20.640 not a

00:37:20.860 coincidence

00:37:21.180 and

00:37:23.260 also

00:37:26.260 I remember

00:37:27.040 visiting

00:37:27.640 Shanghai

00:37:28.160 some years

00:37:29.520 ago

00:37:29.760 and was

00:37:30.020 met by

00:37:30.480 a young

00:37:30.960 man

00:37:32.300 from

00:37:32.500 Singapore

00:37:32.820 and we

00:37:33.620 introduced

00:37:34.020 our names

00:37:34.500 and his

00:37:34.720 name was

00:37:35.000 Daniel

00:37:35.360 and without

00:37:36.280 pausing for

00:37:36.700 breath

00:37:36.880 he said

00:37:37.280 to me

00:37:37.880 I want

00:37:39.900 to say

00:37:40.440 to you

00:37:40.720 that we

00:37:41.200 in Singapore

00:37:42.120 we are

00:37:42.560 grateful

00:37:42.840 to you

00:37:43.180 British

00:37:43.440 for

00:37:44.000 establishing

00:37:44.940 the rule

00:37:45.280 of law

00:37:45.700 and

00:37:47.640 in the

00:37:50.020 1950s

00:37:51.780 late

00:37:53.160 50s

00:37:53.560 and early

00:37:53.800 60s

00:37:55.180 something

00:37:56.100 like

00:37:56.580 something

00:37:57.200 over a

00:37:57.600 million

00:37:57.780 no one

00:37:58.100 knows

00:37:58.220 quite how

00:37:58.540 many

00:37:58.800 over a

00:37:59.520 million

00:37:59.840 Chinese

00:38:01.440 volunteered

00:38:02.120 to leave

00:38:03.200 mainland

00:38:03.580 China

00:38:03.940 which at

00:38:04.240 that point

00:38:04.620 was in

00:38:04.980 the middle

00:38:05.240 of civil

00:38:05.580 war

00:38:06.000 to enter

00:38:07.260 the

00:38:07.720 non-democratic

00:38:09.540 British

00:38:09.960 colony

00:38:10.340 of Hong

00:38:10.700 Kong

00:38:11.040 and they

00:38:12.380 stayed

00:38:12.660 there

00:38:12.980 because at

00:38:14.560 least

00:38:14.920 the British

00:38:16.220 colony

00:38:16.880 of Hong

00:38:17.200 Kong

00:38:17.420 had the

00:38:18.020 rule

00:38:18.140 of law

00:38:18.520 where they

00:38:18.900 could

00:38:19.220 establish

00:38:21.460 a life

00:38:22.620 and where

00:38:23.840 the legal

00:38:25.180 structures

00:38:25.560 around them

00:38:25.920 were fairly

00:38:26.260 secure

00:38:26.640 and predictable

00:38:27.380 and I

00:38:29.500 remember

00:38:29.700 asking a

00:38:30.460 Chinese

00:38:32.920 Hong

00:38:33.320 Kong

00:38:33.600 academic

00:38:34.500 colleague

00:38:35.020 when he

00:38:35.640 visited

00:38:35.880 Oxford

00:38:36.180 I said

00:38:36.580 what did

00:38:38.280 you make

00:38:38.640 of what do

00:38:39.200 you think

00:38:39.540 about the

00:38:40.040 British

00:38:40.400 colonial

00:38:41.120 legacy

00:38:41.460 in Hong

00:38:41.860 Kong

00:38:42.160 and he

00:38:43.260 said well

00:38:43.720 you know

00:38:44.020 if in the

00:38:44.740 1950s

00:38:45.600 China had

00:38:46.480 been a

00:38:46.680 liberal

00:38:46.840 democracy

00:38:47.360 Hong

00:38:48.080 Kong

00:38:48.220 wouldn't

00:38:48.460 look so

00:38:48.840 good

00:38:49.080 but given

00:38:49.460 what the

00:38:49.720 alternatives

00:38:50.120 were

00:38:50.540 Hong Kong

00:38:52.440 was much

00:38:53.480 preferable

00:38:53.980 and he

00:38:54.240 said my

00:38:54.700 grandmother

00:38:55.520 was one

00:38:56.440 of those

00:38:56.940 who

00:38:57.360 fled

00:38:58.740 mainland

00:38:59.460 China

00:38:59.820 for Hong

00:39:00.440 Kong

00:39:00.640 in the

00:39:00.900 50s

00:39:01.160 and 60s

00:39:01.760 and he

00:39:02.560 said she

00:39:02.760 never learned

00:39:03.100 to speak

00:39:03.360 English

00:39:03.700 but she

00:39:04.880 became a

00:39:05.480 lifelong

00:39:05.860 devotee

00:39:06.320 of Princess

00:39:06.700 Di

00:39:07.100 so I

00:39:11.760 guess

00:39:12.040 all I

00:39:12.660 want to

00:39:12.840 say is

00:39:13.120 that you

00:39:13.820 know

00:39:14.040 when you

00:39:16.020 think about

00:39:16.440 colonial

00:39:17.000 rule

00:39:17.500 you need

00:39:17.800 to think

00:39:17.920 what were

00:39:18.460 the

00:39:18.580 alternatives

00:39:19.040 what were

00:39:19.580 the

00:39:20.040 and I

00:39:20.800 think

00:39:20.960 sometimes

00:39:21.520 British

00:39:22.200 colonial

00:39:22.400 rule

00:39:22.700 looks

00:39:23.040 the

00:39:24.240 best

00:39:24.540 as we

00:39:26.940 said

00:39:27.180 earlier

00:39:27.500 when I

00:39:28.220 look at

00:39:28.580 it

00:39:28.720 through

00:39:29.060 the

00:39:29.820 lens

00:39:30.100 of

00:39:30.340 what

00:39:30.740 happened

00:39:31.040 in

00:39:31.200 Ireland

00:39:31.460 it

00:39:31.700 was

00:39:32.040 at

00:39:33.140 times

00:39:34.020 it

00:39:34.260 brought

00:39:34.780 good

00:39:35.000 things

00:39:35.300 and at

00:39:35.580 times

00:39:35.840 it was

00:39:36.100 absolutely

00:39:36.660 horrific

00:39:37.120 and I

00:39:37.500 think

00:39:37.740 any

00:39:39.300 good

00:39:40.360 assessment

00:39:40.760 has to

00:39:41.300 look at

00:39:41.620 both

00:39:42.480 and

00:39:43.240 unfortunately

00:39:44.180 now

00:39:44.560 we've

00:39:45.540 gone

00:39:45.780 from

00:39:46.200 employing

00:39:48.040 a

00:39:48.140 hagiography

00:39:48.720 of these

00:39:49.160 things

00:39:49.460 where

00:39:50.000 they were

00:39:50.320 always

00:39:50.600 good

00:39:50.900 to

00:39:51.180 going

00:39:51.440 in

00:39:51.600 the

00:39:51.720 opposite

00:39:51.980 direction

00:39:52.380 where

00:39:52.720 it's

00:39:53.300 always

00:39:53.540 bad

00:39:53.860 and

00:39:53.980 it's

00:39:54.100 always

00:39:54.320 evil

00:39:54.600 and

00:39:54.800 how

00:39:55.280 could

00:39:55.460 we

00:39:55.580 not

00:39:55.760 know

00:39:55.980 that

00:39:56.260 the

00:39:57.140 truth

00:39:57.400 is

00:39:57.540 somewhere

00:39:57.800 in

00:39:58.020 the

00:39:58.140 middle

00:39:58.320 I

00:39:59.100 think

00:39:59.320 you're

00:39:59.700 right

00:40:00.060 British

00:40:02.620 involvement

00:40:04.220 in

00:40:04.780 Ireland

00:40:05.340 was

00:40:06.040 sometimes

00:40:07.080 rapacious

00:40:07.760 the famine

00:40:09.840 it's

00:40:10.920 clear to me

00:40:11.280 was not

00:40:11.740 caused

00:40:12.780 by the

00:40:13.100 British

00:40:13.380 the

00:40:14.060 question

00:40:14.300 is

00:40:14.440 whether

00:40:14.600 the

00:40:14.860 British

00:40:15.220 government

00:40:15.460 could

00:40:15.660 have

00:40:15.820 more

00:40:16.000 than

00:40:16.140 it

00:40:16.280 did

00:40:16.520 to

00:40:16.740 relieve

00:40:17.020 it

00:40:17.240 and

00:40:17.740 that's

00:40:17.940 controversial

00:40:18.460 but I

00:40:21.740 think it's

00:40:22.000 important to

00:40:22.460 note that

00:40:23.020 there were

00:40:24.280 bona fide

00:40:24.920 attempts

00:40:25.460 throughout the

00:40:26.600 1800s

00:40:27.440 and especially

00:40:27.880 toward the

00:40:28.340 end of the

00:40:28.660 1800s to

00:40:29.220 reform

00:40:29.820 British

00:40:31.320 Ireland

00:40:31.720 particularly in

00:40:33.060 terms of

00:40:33.500 tenure of

00:40:33.960 land

00:40:34.360 and admitting

00:40:35.320 Catholics

00:40:35.760 to the

00:40:38.380 police and

00:40:38.860 the judiciary

00:40:39.340 and the

00:40:40.220 legal profession

00:40:40.880 and government

00:40:41.660 and around

00:40:42.820 early 1900s

00:40:44.820 a lot of

00:40:45.920 the reforms

00:40:46.380 had been

00:40:47.280 effective

00:40:47.660 so let's

00:40:50.160 take for

00:40:50.440 granted that

00:40:50.920 all political

00:40:51.440 systems are

00:40:52.300 flawed

00:40:52.740 one important

00:40:55.200 sign of

00:40:56.840 their health

00:40:57.440 is whether

00:40:58.640 they're capable

00:40:59.100 of reforming

00:41:00.200 themselves

00:41:00.440 and I think

00:41:01.140 partly because

00:41:02.180 of Irish

00:41:02.700 representation

00:41:03.680 in the

00:41:04.200 British

00:41:04.400 Parliament

00:41:04.780 in the

00:41:05.160 19th

00:41:05.680 century

00:41:06.100 the question

00:41:07.780 of Ireland

00:41:08.160 was kept

00:41:08.560 right at

00:41:08.820 the top

00:41:09.040 of the

00:41:09.240 British

00:41:09.400 agenda

00:41:09.780 and it

00:41:10.440 did produce

00:41:10.880 change

00:41:11.380 that's

00:41:12.000 my piece

00:41:12.640 on Ireland

00:41:12.980 and quite

00:41:13.840 a bit

00:41:14.080 of it

00:41:14.280 from the

00:41:14.600 Anglo-Irish

00:41:15.160 themselves

00:41:15.580 so like

00:41:17.240 I said

00:41:17.560 the good

00:41:18.160 and the

00:41:18.480 bad

00:41:18.660 absolutely

00:41:19.140 this sense

00:41:22.160 that it's

00:41:24.760 only been

00:41:25.120 the British

00:41:25.520 that were

00:41:26.200 colonial

00:41:26.660 or bad

00:41:27.720 colonials

00:41:28.220 or it was

00:41:29.300 just Western

00:41:29.860 Europeans

00:41:30.380 just walk

00:41:33.680 us through

00:41:34.040 that notion

00:41:35.000 I mean

00:41:35.420 my view

00:41:36.120 of history

00:41:36.500 I think

00:41:37.500 of whether

00:41:38.360 it's Persian

00:41:39.280 empires

00:41:39.840 Mongol

00:41:40.340 empires

00:41:40.980 African

00:41:41.500 empires

00:41:41.780 there have

00:41:42.660 been empires

00:41:43.180 everywhere

00:41:43.580 there has

00:41:43.900 been colonialism

00:41:44.520 everywhere

00:41:45.060 and for most

00:41:45.920 of human

00:41:46.300 history

00:41:46.680 it has

00:41:47.680 not been

00:41:48.260 a matter

00:41:49.900 of

00:41:50.600 self-determination

00:41:53.300 by various

00:41:54.420 ethnic groups

00:41:55.440 it's been

00:41:56.160 quite the

00:41:56.680 opposite

00:41:57.020 that's

00:41:59.100 right

00:41:59.460 we need to

00:42:03.660 think about

00:42:03.960 what an

00:42:04.380 empire is

00:42:05.060 and often

00:42:05.520 what an

00:42:06.780 empire is

00:42:07.460 is simply

00:42:07.820 people expanding

00:42:08.720 so in

00:42:10.460 Anglo-Saxon

00:42:11.320 England

00:42:11.520 you have

00:42:12.140 lots of

00:42:12.600 little

00:42:13.160 kingdoms

00:42:13.600 all of

00:42:14.340 which

00:42:14.600 are vying

00:42:15.620 with one

00:42:15.920 another

00:42:16.220 and their

00:42:18.020 borders are

00:42:18.560 insecure

00:42:18.920 and one

00:42:20.640 way to

00:42:20.840 make yourself

00:42:21.180 secure is

00:42:23.420 to take

00:42:24.400 control of

00:42:24.960 a joining

00:42:25.260 territory

00:42:25.740 and where

00:42:27.000 you have

00:42:27.340 an unstable

00:42:28.320 situation like

00:42:29.680 that you do

00:42:30.240 find particular

00:42:30.960 peoples expanding

00:42:31.760 and controlling

00:42:33.020 other peoples

00:42:33.560 and exactly

00:42:34.200 the same

00:42:34.660 happened

00:42:35.060 in what

00:42:36.960 became

00:42:37.300 Canada

00:42:37.700 among

00:42:38.200 First Nations

00:42:39.140 First Nations

00:42:39.680 were not

00:42:40.040 sitting there

00:42:40.680 with well

00:42:41.540 defined

00:42:41.840 boundaries

00:42:42.340 forever

00:42:42.800 in the

00:42:44.440 16th

00:42:44.900 1700s

00:42:46.240 various

00:42:47.020 of the

00:42:48.540 First Nations

00:42:49.060 were vying

00:42:50.140 with each

00:42:50.480 other and

00:42:50.840 pushing each

00:42:51.300 other off

00:42:51.720 land and

00:42:52.140 taking control

00:42:52.640 of it and

00:42:53.020 expanding

00:42:53.460 I'm thinking

00:42:54.040 I think I'm

00:42:54.960 thinking of

00:42:55.340 the Iroquois

00:42:56.040 in particular

00:42:56.580 so this

00:42:58.060 notion of

00:42:58.880 imperial expansion

00:42:59.660 is not

00:43:00.080 European

00:43:00.560 the Zulu

00:43:02.000 in South

00:43:02.300 Africa

00:43:02.680 emerged

00:43:04.980 on the

00:43:05.240 scene

00:43:05.380 in the

00:43:05.540 1920s

00:43:06.040 and

00:43:06.200 expanded

00:43:06.680 and

00:43:07.260 pushed

00:43:07.660 other

00:43:08.240 African

00:43:08.520 peoples

00:43:08.860 to

00:43:09.680 three

00:43:09.940 of the

00:43:10.180 four

00:43:10.380 winds

00:43:10.840 so

00:43:12.260 an

00:43:12.980 empire

00:43:13.320 you're

00:43:13.660 right

00:43:13.860 it's

00:43:14.440 been a

00:43:14.800 phenomenon

00:43:15.120 since

00:43:16.580 ancient

00:43:17.100 period

00:43:17.480 as I

00:43:17.920 say

00:43:18.040 until

00:43:18.420 in the

00:43:19.240 Ottoman

00:43:19.860 case

00:43:20.140 of the

00:43:20.300 1920s

00:43:21.160 I've

00:43:21.940 been

00:43:22.060 running

00:43:22.420 a

00:43:23.040 project

00:43:23.520 for the

00:43:24.660 last

00:43:24.880 six

00:43:25.240 years

00:43:25.580 called

00:43:25.860 Ethics

00:43:26.160 and

00:43:26.280 Empire

00:43:26.720 designed

00:43:27.640 to look

00:43:28.080 at how

00:43:28.680 peoples

00:43:29.740 in the

00:43:30.040 past

00:43:30.400 ancient

00:43:30.880 China

00:43:31.320 the

00:43:32.160 medieval

00:43:32.480 Muslim

00:43:32.800 world

00:43:33.160 how

00:43:33.540 did

00:43:33.720 they

00:43:33.880 see

00:43:34.140 empire

00:43:34.720 ethically

00:43:35.660 in their

00:43:37.000 own

00:43:37.200 terms

00:43:37.480 at their

00:43:37.820 own

00:43:38.020 time

00:43:38.420 one

00:43:39.540 really

00:43:41.120 striking

00:43:42.180 result

00:43:43.720 of

00:43:44.280 our

00:43:44.780 five

00:43:45.800 six

00:43:46.060 year

00:43:46.360 research

00:43:46.900 is that

00:43:47.380 if you

00:43:48.540 look for

00:43:49.180 ancient

00:43:50.500 Chinese

00:43:50.980 or medieval

00:43:51.720 Muslim

00:43:52.340 critiques

00:43:53.760 of empire

00:43:54.720 as such

00:43:55.280 you won't

00:43:55.840 find them

00:43:56.240 you will

00:43:57.380 find discussions

00:43:58.060 of what

00:43:58.560 makes for

00:43:59.740 a virtuous

00:44:00.340 or vicious

00:44:01.440 emperor

00:44:01.860 you'll

00:44:04.060 find

00:44:04.600 treatises

00:44:05.020 and what

00:44:05.340 makes for

00:44:05.800 good and

00:44:06.140 bad

00:44:06.320 government

00:44:06.760 but empire

00:44:07.780 as a

00:44:08.020 political

00:44:08.240 form was

00:44:08.620 completely

00:44:09.100 unremarkable

00:44:09.720 because it

00:44:10.300 was so

00:44:10.600 common

00:44:10.920 it was

00:44:11.640 just there

00:44:12.200 it was

00:44:13.100 one of

00:44:13.500 the options

00:44:14.060 just there

00:44:15.540 and for

00:44:17.440 some people

00:44:18.200 the virtues

00:44:22.280 of empire

00:44:22.760 were clear

00:44:23.800 that's to

00:44:24.200 say if you

00:44:24.860 have an

00:44:25.160 overarching

00:44:25.540 authority

00:44:26.140 one thing

00:44:27.120 the authority

00:44:27.560 can do

00:44:27.980 is to

00:44:28.360 moderate

00:44:28.760 conflicts

00:44:29.480 between

00:44:29.920 different

00:44:30.560 peoples

00:44:31.040 and

00:44:33.200 so what

00:44:34.380 happens

00:44:35.360 when

00:44:35.680 empires

00:44:36.100 collapses

00:44:36.680 that

00:44:37.560 conflicts

00:44:37.960 that were

00:44:38.320 contained

00:44:38.900 blow up

00:44:40.160 and you

00:44:41.020 found that

00:44:41.600 to some

00:44:42.360 extent

00:44:42.820 when the

00:44:44.480 federation

00:44:45.060 of Yugoslavia

00:44:45.640 collapsed

00:44:46.140 in the

00:44:46.960 1990s

00:44:48.260 long

00:44:48.820 contained

00:44:50.040 conflicts

00:44:50.860 blew up

00:44:51.700 and there

00:44:52.000 was horrific

00:44:53.480 bloodshed

00:44:54.100 depending on

00:44:57.480 who you

00:44:57.800 speak to

00:44:58.360 Yugoslavia

00:44:59.400 was a

00:45:00.880 model of

00:45:01.540 good

00:45:01.880 governance

00:45:02.280 or

00:45:02.920 oppression

00:45:03.840 so we're

00:45:08.600 back to

00:45:09.040 looking at

00:45:09.960 all of

00:45:12.040 this as

00:45:13.360 being much

00:45:14.580 more complex

00:45:15.360 than I think

00:45:15.820 we often

00:45:16.200 give credit

00:45:16.680 for

00:45:16.980 history

00:45:17.640 is a

00:45:18.560 messy

00:45:18.780 business

00:45:19.300 it's a

00:45:19.860 really

00:45:19.960 fascinating

00:45:20.320 business

00:45:20.660 Nigel

00:45:24.440 I want to

00:45:25.560 thank you

00:45:25.820 for your

00:45:26.040 time

00:45:26.240 I want to

00:45:26.580 thank you

00:45:26.880 for your

00:45:27.780 book

00:45:28.020 I'm going

00:45:28.300 to encourage

00:45:28.700 everyone to

00:45:29.260 read it

00:45:29.940 if you're

00:45:30.220 a historian

00:45:30.800 not like

00:45:31.700 I am

00:45:32.140 and it's

00:45:32.920 a different

00:45:33.240 view of

00:45:33.900 history

00:45:34.160 taken from

00:45:34.720 an ethical

00:45:35.700 lens

00:45:36.020 and it

00:45:36.240 comes out

00:45:36.720 just as

00:45:37.380 the

00:45:38.400 coronation

00:45:39.060 comes out

00:45:39.680 here anyway

00:45:40.280 it's been a

00:45:40.960 bestseller

00:45:41.360 in Britain

00:45:42.140 for a while

00:45:42.720 but it

00:45:43.580 comes out

00:45:43.960 in Canada

00:45:44.640 just as

00:45:45.160 we're

00:45:45.380 dealing

00:45:45.720 with the

00:45:46.040 coronation

00:45:46.500 of

00:45:47.000 King

00:45:47.640 Charles

00:45:47.980 III

00:45:48.580 there's

00:45:50.100 a

00:45:50.660 colonial

00:45:51.580 legacy

00:45:52.020 and a

00:45:52.500 recent

00:45:52.820 poll

00:45:53.080 showing

00:45:53.460 an awful

00:45:54.080 lot of

00:45:54.400 Canadians

00:45:54.760 just want

00:45:55.320 to say

00:45:55.700 forget about

00:45:56.600 the monarchy

00:45:57.040 we're done

00:45:57.560 but we'll

00:45:58.880 see where that

00:45:59.380 conversation

00:45:59.900 goes in the

00:46:00.440 future

00:46:00.680 thanks for

00:46:01.540 the time

00:46:01.800 Nigel

00:46:02.120 thanks Brian

00:46:02.800 very much

00:46:03.100 for the

00:46:03.420 conversation

00:46:04.100 a full

00:46:05.060 comment

00:46:05.460 is a

00:46:05.900 post

00:46:06.180 media

00:46:06.440 podcast

00:46:07.000 my name

00:46:07.360 is

00:46:07.460 Brian

00:46:07.740 Lilly

00:46:08.000 your

00:46:08.200 host

00:46:08.580 this

00:46:08.860 episode

00:46:09.240 was

00:46:09.500 produced

00:46:09.800 by

00:46:10.060 Andre

00:46:10.440 Pru

00:46:10.740 with theme

00:46:11.580 music by

00:46:12.180 Bryce Hall

00:46:12.940 Kevin Libin

00:46:13.620 is the

00:46:14.160 executive

00:46:14.620 producer

00:46:15.020 as I said

00:46:15.660 earlier

00:46:15.940 remember you

00:46:16.560 can subscribe

00:46:17.260 to full

00:46:17.700 comment

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00:46:22.900 please hit

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00:46:31.200 share it

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00:46:32.820 email it

00:46:33.460 to your

00:46:33.720 Aunt May

00:46:34.160 and Whitby

00:46:34.680 tell your

00:46:35.440 friends

00:46:35.740 thanks for

00:46:36.500 listening

00:46:36.760 until next

00:46:37.380 time

00:46:37.620 I'm

00:46:37.980 Brian Lilly

Full Comment - May 01, 2023

Colonialism isn’t as bad as everyone thinks

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