Full Comment - Conservatives have a real chance to win

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00:00:44.980 hello i'm anthony fury thanks so much for joining us for the latest episode of full comment if you

00:00:56.900 haven't already please consider subscribing prime minister justin trudeau isn't faring too well

00:01:01.900 these days there's lots of non-partisan public frustration at what's going on at airports at

00:01:07.120 the lineups of passport offices meanwhile the price of goods is going up and up and all the liberals

00:01:12.240 seem to be doing is making excuses yet as much as it seems like trudeau is just hanging on by a thread

00:01:17.580 well there's no election around the corner and the liberals remain propped up by the ndp

00:01:21.820 oh and the conservatives don't have a permanent leader right now they're in a leadership race

00:01:25.860 so what sort of leader should the conservatives pick to do what's best for the nation and to

00:01:31.200 capitalize on the reduced popularity of justin trudeau are the conservatives a shoo-in next time around

00:01:37.700 are they facing big challenges what do they need to do to pull it off our guest today tasha keridan

00:01:44.700 has thought a great deal about these issues she's even written a new book on them called

00:01:48.360 the right path how conservatives can unite inspire and take canada forward tasha has worked at think

00:01:55.420 tanks she's been a radio and tv broadcaster and is currently a principal at the firm navigator

00:01:59.800 she joins us now tasha great to have you back on the show oh thank you so much anthony yeah thanks

00:02:05.300 for joining us congratulations on the new book thank you so why did you set out to write this book

00:02:10.680 now there's a lot going on in canada right now oh yes there is um well i set out to write the book

00:02:17.160 um first of all personally i i care very deeply about the conservative party and about canadian democracy

00:02:22.660 and i have been uh partisan politician or partisan in politics partisan politics um previously in my life

00:02:30.140 before then becoming a media person as you as you mentioned so when i was younger it was the pc party

00:02:36.420 and it was something that really um i i fought very hard for conservatism on a partisan basis for about 15

00:02:43.660 years um that said right now the reason i've written this book is i started writing it after the last

00:02:50.440 election in 2021 when the conservatives had lost for the third time and a lot of people were soul

00:02:56.200 searching including myself and i felt that i wanted myself to contribute to this conversation i felt

00:03:01.520 that certain partisanship i guess stirring in me again in the sense that i just didn't want to see

00:03:06.520 the tories lose again and so i began writing the book and then as you said things got really busy um

00:03:13.100 earlier this year with the convoy protests with uh the exit of erid o'toole with the leadership race that

00:03:21.300 was called and so the the timeline of the book certainly accelerated in part because i feel it

00:03:28.160 is important now for conservatives to have to make an informed decision about the direction of the party

00:03:34.120 um they're going to decide their leader but beyond the leader um it's about the direction of the party

00:03:40.540 and that's really what matters and that's what the book is about it's about the currents that are informing

00:03:45.600 the race but also the bigger political landscape for the tories populism conservatism as you mentioned

00:03:52.700 this gap on the uh center right now because the liberals and the ndp have moved things to the left

00:03:58.400 feel where does the party go and how can it help canada and that's why i i'm writing the book now

00:04:03.280 i think you missed one small part in that timeline because wasn't there a period where you were very

00:04:07.760 seriously considering running for the conservative leadership race yourself that is true and the funny

00:04:13.360 thing is anthony it's because of this book that that happened uh i my book deal was announced

00:04:19.580 on twitter and several people assumed that meant i was thinking of running which i was adamantly not

00:04:27.240 at the time but then i started getting phone calls um and people asking me to run and saying we think you

00:04:33.340 should run and so i did explore it for about four weeks and that was incredibly um i guess in two ways

00:04:39.860 it was incredibly um inspiring for me to reconnect with so many people that i had been active within

00:04:48.060 politics previously that were still active and to meet new ones and to really engage in that

00:04:53.240 conversation and and see you know was this something that i'd want to do um so it really whetted my

00:04:58.060 appetite for politics it was very exciting i concluded that it was not my race to run um there was not a

00:05:03.680 path for victory for me in fact i looked at the landscape and as you know i am supporting jean

00:05:08.580 charay in the race i'm co-chair of nationally with his campaign and that's because the vision that he

00:05:14.480 put forward was extremely similar to mine and our base is very similar in quebec so that was the

00:05:20.080 decision i made there but for the book it was actually incredibly helpful because i talked to

00:05:24.600 hundreds of people and many of those conversations were not with people who were even supporting me or

00:05:30.620 supporting mr charay or supporting anyone they were just to take the temperature where people were at

00:05:35.520 so a lot of those voices informed the book and it really really helped actually in finding out

00:05:41.740 what's on the minds of conservatives across the country well i want to pick up a bit more on the

00:05:45.580 conservative leadership race jean charay pierre pauliev in a moment but i want to talk about

00:05:48.960 the thrust of your book here the subtitle how conservatives can unite inspire and take canada

00:05:54.180 forward i know you cover that terrain in hundreds of pages i'm going to ask you to condense it to oh i

00:05:59.940 don't know 30 seconds i mean what what is what would you say is the the the unifying force that

00:06:06.620 needs to get that unity and that that moving forward the unifying force that i come to conclude is

00:06:13.380 opportunity and that word to me more than all the other words floating around right now including

00:06:19.820 freedom which is something i i subscribe to 100 and consider it is very much believe in but there have

00:06:26.200 been a number of associations that make me say no i think that word for some people has a negative

00:06:31.440 connotation now we need something that is positive that has no baggage that responds to the needs of

00:06:38.120 the three groups that i identify in the book that the conservatives need to get on side in the next

00:06:43.780 decade and the next election i say is like you know that's where it starts but over the next decade

00:06:48.240 to ensure that they remain a force in canadian politics and those groups are very simply new

00:06:54.000 canadians urban slash suburban voters and gen z and millennials the next generation and i devote

00:07:00.020 three chapters to that very much in detail a lot of data some charts you name it because if the

00:07:07.420 conservatives do not succeed in appealing to them they will literally die out i am not exaggerating

00:07:13.200 it's just demographics it is just math new canadians settle in cities and they have aspirations

00:07:19.100 for their children and opportunity is what they are all seeking an opportunity um in the case of new

00:07:25.120 canadians to make their make a better life for themselves than they had in their previous uh country

00:07:30.180 for urban and suburban families and voters it is to be able to live in the communities where they grew

00:07:36.280 up where they want to be and be able to afford that life and for the next generation it's also to have

00:07:41.300 a better life than their parents so facilitating equality of opportunity is what the party has to be about

00:07:47.080 and populism is a response to a lack of opportunity to the sense that things are closed off to you and

00:07:53.720 it's unfair but there's no way even if you do all the right things that you can get ahead

00:07:57.160 you've got to break that barrier down but as i go into detail in the book i don't believe that some

00:08:02.520 of the populist solutions are the answers the tories should put forward because i don't think they'll

00:08:06.380 have a broad enough base of appeal and i don't think they really tackle the right root of the issue which

00:08:10.000 is opportunity and social mobility so there you go is justin trudeau successfully doing

00:08:16.840 those things right now and then the conservatives need to steal his mojo or need to kind of learn to

00:08:21.160 do what he's doing or is it that nobody's really doing it and it's a vacuum he has failed and i go

00:08:26.880 into that in detail he has actually destroyed opportunity in this country it's something a lot

00:08:31.580 of people don't know but the data bears it out in fact the middle class was doing far better before

00:08:38.440 trudeau came in because his whole ethos anthony has been to make government your friend through wealth

00:08:45.060 transfers his answer to creating opportunity is let's move the money around take it from the

00:08:51.800 wealthy or in his case borrowing it frankly and throwing it at groups like the middle class middle

00:08:58.700 class families the candidate of a child benefit and i'll explain that in a moment things that might

00:09:03.720 sound really well intentioned but they don't create opportunity in fact what they've done is they've

00:09:08.740 decreased the actual revenue that middle class families have um one study i came across showed very

00:09:14.600 clearly that because of the benefits that middle class families received the earners in them chose

00:09:20.640 to work less they actually had less money at the end of the day they had money from the government but

00:09:26.320 a secondary earner stopped working as much didn't do as many hours and consequently after a few years

00:09:32.680 they are further behind than they were before trudeau also as i say he stoked the woke that's that's i think

00:09:39.500 it's chapter three and i love it it's well it's very important to to understand this because

00:09:45.500 what the government and bill morno said it you know just recently i felt like he was doing an ad for my

00:09:50.860 book i'm like yeah that's it exactly is that the government's focus was not on wealth creation it was

00:09:56.280 not on opportunity it was on basically leveraging its power to get votes and make people dependent on the

00:10:02.920 government and that is so so against what the conservatives are about and it is it is the flip

00:10:09.120 side of populism populism is the the notion that we've got to get rid of you know elites and elites

00:10:14.920 are the problem but woke politics what it does is identity politics and it says well it's not about

00:10:20.240 that if you know the right person you can get ahead or if you're part of the you know toronto

00:10:23.560 establishment you'll get ahead no no it's if you're part of a group that's disadvantaged now you'll get

00:10:27.500 ahead and we will dictate it that it will be so both outcomes are unfair because both outcomes ignore

00:10:33.640 the merit principle they ignore equality of opportunity the the average person is lost in

00:10:38.980 this conversation and what happens is then they get angry and they get upset and you end up with

00:10:43.480 populism on one side people getting you know you know with pitchforks on one side and you have

00:10:47.980 woke politics on the other side saying similar but saying you know we've got we've got to change the

00:10:53.220 whole system the system's got to be thrown out none of this is productive and

00:10:57.440 so trudeau fed that machine he he really did and that's why i think conservatives need to unite

00:11:01.980 against him like you know let's forget fighting each other let's get get angry at him because he's

00:11:06.100 the real problem tasha one of my pet peeves i'd be curious to get your thoughts on this both as a

00:11:09.920 conservative uh fiscally and as a parent is the canada child benefit it's always been a pet peeve to

00:11:15.380 me because it sounds so you know like nice and inoffensive and it is inoffensive but it's like at

00:11:19.700 one point i had when my children when they were younger there's they're still young now but

00:11:24.300 three small children at home uh my wife wasn't working but you know i was working my job i'm not

00:11:30.480 poor and we were getting a lot of money every month from the government in our account basically and it

00:11:36.360 was about the same rate as an ontario welfare payment and i was like the psychology of this

00:11:41.040 that a middle-class family has been placed on welfare by this government and taught to think

00:11:46.020 of it as normal and talked oh thank you justin trudeau every month thank you it's not even that one

00:11:50.200 time payoff it's like a monthly welfare payment from the government that you become reliant on

00:11:54.940 as middle class i thought this is wild well this is wild and this the problem is also the pandemic

00:12:00.560 then exacerbated this and government everyone became dependent i mean you know serb was flying

00:12:05.580 out the door to all sorts of people and then the crb and you're absolutely right if you go back even

00:12:10.240 before trudeau was elected and you read the book plutocrats by christia freeland his heir apparent to

00:12:15.180 many people she if the whole ethos was started there the idea that the rich are getting richer

00:12:21.100 and that is the problem and you've got to redistribute money to the middle class the middle

00:12:24.480 class is falling behind she was right about the u.s middle class where she actually was living at the

00:12:29.420 time she was in new york the united states middle class was in a very different situation in the

00:12:34.080 canadian middle class after 2008 and the financial crisis and the crash of their housing market

00:12:38.480 the u.s middle class did fall blind but in canada we didn't but trudeau acted as though we had and why

00:12:46.160 did he do this because well christia freeland a wrote it down and it sounded good and b if you

00:12:51.920 convince people you're going to be their friend and they need you they'll vote for you so he he

00:12:57.040 capitalized on this angst that people knew was happening in the u.s but it wasn't really happening

00:13:01.820 here and he created this middle class prosperity ministry and he threw money at you and he threw money at

00:13:07.280 all sorts of families who didn't need it and the result was like i said it disincentivized work

00:13:12.960 and so you ended up with a situation where people didn't take opportunities that may otherwise have

00:13:18.020 benefited their family because they're like well i'm getting this money i don't you know we can afford

00:13:22.060 to scale back the hours and this kind of thing and maybe your lifestyle maybe some people like that but

00:13:27.440 the result is that in fact they end up being dependent on the government and that is what trudeau is all

00:13:33.640 about and that's what morna was so frustrated about you know one thing i find interesting you're saying

00:13:38.640 a lot of populist ideas aren't going to necessarily work for the conservatives but at the same time

00:13:42.960 the idea of just giving more and more handouts i mean that's the thing that conservatives have a

00:13:47.060 problem stepping away from the republicans love their pork barrel spending uh stephen harper really

00:13:51.220 ballooned the tax act so that there are tons of niche tax credits uh doug ford has just done you

00:13:56.220 know a lot of giveaways during his time as premier i almost feel like of all your your ideas that

00:14:02.360 you're putting forward in the book that might be the hardest one to actually sell to get conservatives

00:14:05.420 to act on that well i think right now we have over trillion dollar debt and i think we have to act

00:14:11.800 and this is what i mean the pandemic really you know tossed it just was like it hit the gas on the

00:14:16.740 spending in such a way that the cupboard is bare we cannot continue like this and people who talk about

00:14:23.180 guaranteed annual income i just laugh i'm like really um why because we did that experiment during the

00:14:29.380 pandemic it did not work and we see now labor shortages why people don't want to take jobs

00:14:35.140 that they had before but they had to leave for whatever reason maybe restrictions who knows

00:14:39.720 but then they're like no i don't want that anymore um well that's nice to say i i don't want to do that

00:14:46.480 work but the point is that if everyone makes that decision the economy is going to collapse and you're

00:14:52.920 going to have a situation where people are all going to be looking to the government and the government

00:14:56.080 we're out of money and and you cannot sustain that and the lesson i think here is that um you know

00:15:01.680 many of us have had jobs in our lives that we have not loved that have been a stepping stone to

00:15:06.180 something else or that we downright hated you know um whether it was hey i worked at fast food when i

00:15:11.700 was younger i did all sorts of telephone sales and jobs that i really i did that because i had to do it

00:15:17.860 to pay for things that i needed like university and other stuff that was the worst i did the telemarketing

00:15:22.080 as well i'm never read to a person on the phone because i know i was that person beforehand i i

00:15:27.280 will like ghost away and just hang up but i'll never start yelling at them i know i do too i just

00:15:31.740 say you're wasting your time like going to the next person by but the point is simply that um you know

00:15:36.780 you can't work has this inherent dignity and you're right conservatives also fall into that trap we also

00:15:41.920 fall into the trap on the sort of corporate welfare side of like oh let's just give money to companies

00:15:46.060 that's also you know because then that that picks winners and losers and some companies who don't get the

00:15:51.540 funds then are disadvantaged and is that fair not really because it means that you your competitiveness

00:15:57.140 doesn't depend on how well you do your how well you sell your product or how efficient you are it's

00:16:01.600 how many friends you have in government so we have to wean ourselves of that too um but like i said i

00:16:06.900 think that there's going to be an appetite for it because canadians right now i mean the biggest

00:16:11.080 issue is cost of living everyone is is frightened of inflation everyone is looking going oh my god my

00:16:16.080 grocery bill my this my gas tank like everything is going up so i think there'll be much more of a

00:16:20.800 consciousness of the need because we're buckling our belts that government needs to do the same

00:16:25.120 we'll be back with more with tasha keratin in just a moment

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00:18:27.700 tasha in your new book the right path you talk about courting millennials and gen z there's something

00:18:37.000 very interesting going on i think in millennial culture gen z culture the issues they're talking about

00:18:42.920 some people love the cancel culture but then the other half of them are doing a backlash against it

00:18:47.240 i just don't know where they stand really politically what's going on with gen z right now

00:18:53.080 what what do these demographics want out of politics right now well you know it's that that was one of the

00:19:00.960 most enjoyable chapters of the book to write um because i was given a lot of research a good friend

00:19:07.980 of mine who's worked with youth engagement politically for many years um sent me one particular study by

00:19:14.480 deloitte which breaks down into cohorts the millennial and gen z generations they've been doing it for a

00:19:20.720 couple of years and it should be like i say in the book required reading for every political party but

00:19:25.020 the tories like let's get to it first and so that's one thing if you're interested in this like i think

00:19:29.000 that's chapter nine um you will find it very fascinating because what it shows is that they

00:19:34.680 are not a monolith to your point what are they thinking it depends who you talk to within the

00:19:40.400 millennial generation there are about 20 that are definitely accessible to the conservatives they should

00:19:47.180 be voting conservative every single time there are another 20 who are accessible but they have

00:19:54.180 caveats some of them are environmentally conscious and if you don't have an environmental policy

00:19:58.800 that appeals to them they will not vote for you others are just not very political they're sort of

00:20:04.520 not as engaged and so you have to find a way to reach them and get them you know why should you

00:20:09.320 vote why should you vote for me you have to find a way into them gen z though is that's a much different

00:20:16.040 generation it's extremely polarized only six percent of them say that they are in the center everyone else

00:20:22.740 is either right or left exactly and so that is the most accessible generation but here's the thing

00:20:29.920 only 18 to 24 year olds can currently vote so it's a very small percentage that are actually active in

00:20:36.160 the next election so my my what are the ages for gen z gen z goes to 24 um i don't know how the youngest

00:20:42.320 one is now but the other ones are from 25 to 39 right so what you have is a situation where for this

00:20:48.480 election i say go for the millennials you can get because they're the ones who are actually voting

00:20:52.700 they vote less than the older generation sure but get your accessible millennials and identify who they

00:20:57.500 are and then i say then election after that it's the chance for gen z because gen z like you said i talked

00:21:04.320 to many gen z's and they woke culture cuts it's a double-edged sword some love it some hate it and the

00:21:11.180 ones who hate it they are conservative they say i've done at university i couldn't stand it too much

00:21:16.380 they believe in freedom of speech look um i'm not on pierre polyev's campaign but i will say

00:21:21.560 he appeals to that group absolutely my own stepson is a pierre supporter and we had a really fascinating

00:21:28.200 chat because i said why and he said well because you know um he's tired of that stuff too and he's

00:21:34.160 like and i see him on social media and he acts like no politician would ever act like ever he tears

00:21:38.980 up stuff and he's you know he's he says it like it is that generation is very much about like be honest

00:21:44.260 be straight with me so you know that that authenticity is important um it doesn't mean

00:21:50.240 that they would all support everything he stands for but the persona is important too being honest

00:21:55.440 and listening to these to the kids today i would say the kids because i'm older but they want to be

00:22:00.360 heard they want to be listened to and they are accessible so for conservatives they we really need

00:22:05.980 to identify who are the groups within there and go find them and we can do that and they care about

00:22:11.420 the things like i said cost of living is a huge huge one they want a better life than their parents

00:22:16.180 opportunity is the key but they're also really concerned about things like mental health okay

00:22:21.220 who's talking about that they care they their mental health is not in a good place they want a party that

00:22:26.140 cares and that talks about that sort of stuff um they also are you know they're they're always told

00:22:31.520 about their identity and that sort of thing but their biggest identity is that they're gig workers

00:22:36.240 their new economy workers they want to know that they're going to have some kind of security

00:22:41.240 beyond simply you know the job that they have so what doug ford did in the last election provincially

00:22:46.720 with worker um benefits and this kind of thing is actually very important to guarantee some kind of

00:22:53.120 stability or that's very appealing to them to say that the government again it's not throwing money

00:22:57.220 at them it's just making work rules fair for gig workers so is there a large cohort of gen z who are

00:23:04.920 basically waiting to be scooped up it's not so much even converting them it's just like hey let's make

00:23:10.480 those connections because our get out the vote initiative or however we connect with people

00:23:14.620 it's just not scooping them up yet yes it is and the other important thing to think to see is that

00:23:19.800 many of the groups and i can't the millennials there was one group called diverse strivers there's a

00:23:24.580 similar group in gen z i can't remember the actual name right now but they cohort them and they name

00:23:28.620 them as like what their their identity is many of them are new canadians second generation new

00:23:34.440 canadians people like i was back in the day like their parents came here and so the party also this

00:23:40.280 is the piece about immigration is very important because that generation the accessible gen z's

00:23:46.560 are say almost overwhelmingly um you know new canadians and they are in cities they are like

00:23:53.400 downtown calgary is the most gen z um like most um uh youngest downtown of a whole country i mean most

00:24:00.580 people wouldn't know that either i did not know that that's very interesting i learned a lot of this

00:24:03.600 i'm telling you i'm learning a lot of this in this book just doing it and it so this is the kinds of

00:24:07.180 things like there's an overlap between urban new canadian and and young young voter that the party

00:24:13.900 has to seize on so that involves also representation it involves finding them and it involves community

00:24:19.500 in a different way not just online there's this myth that's all online no no no these kids these

00:24:25.260 young voters they want community they crave community and if you give them physical community

00:24:30.560 too um i say in the book i say establish a youth wing in your party like that's been a debate within

00:24:36.280 this party for years i was a member of the youth wing of the cpc or the pc party the cpc should have

00:24:42.820 one and it's not about ghettoization it's about socialization they want to be with people who they

00:24:49.460 can talk to and have a good time and it is so important that physical connection it even more so

00:24:55.140 today when we're all in our you know zoom bubble so the party needs to get on that tasha we hear a

00:25:00.780 lot about how new canadians are really natural conservatives for a variety of reasons uh they

00:25:05.900 tend to more be be hard working in terms of uh not having these sort of easy doors open to you

00:25:13.000 uh progressive jobs out there they're really sort of working hard to put food on the table

00:25:18.400 often faith values family values have them skew conservative is that a phenomenon that you really

00:25:23.660 see backed up by the numbers these days yes and uh there's a trifecta um faith family free

00:25:29.420 enterprise that i think russell kirk american conservative has um you know used as his his

00:25:34.500 mantra and it really does apply um not necessarily the way you think though uh i interviewed waleed

00:25:40.140 solomon who is a patrick brown supporter and he is very plugged into the muslim community and in

00:25:44.700 talking he said you know the niqab ban in 2015 affected maybe 200 people across the country like

00:25:51.320 literally 200 women who choosing to wear this he said but every muslim he knows looks at this and

00:25:57.000 goes oh first it's them then it's telling us we can't have our mosque then it's telling us we can't

00:26:03.020 have our prayer days then it's telling us this and that and we will be circumscribed just like the

00:26:07.620 governments did on various things in the countries we left behind we want freedom to practice our faith

00:26:13.460 and be you know be ourselves and that made them very very nervous so it was something that i think

00:26:20.220 if you're not a faith person or you're not in that community you wouldn't get and i think the

00:26:24.180 conservatives didn't understand this still hangs over their head today so that is something that

00:26:28.800 has to be dispelled this notion that conservatives are exclusionary in terms of faith they're not

00:26:34.380 conservatives faith is a pillar of conservatism it has been since edmund burke in 1789 and it doesn't

00:26:40.040 matter what your faith is he in fact was a religious pluralist edmund burke was said really nice

00:26:45.760 things about the muslim faith back in 1789 okay he was he didn't want discrimination against catholics

00:26:51.580 or protestants that was his big debate but he even went out further than that so conservatives have a

00:26:56.760 long tradition of faith pluralism second is the family the little platoon of society extremely important

00:27:02.900 to new canadians and there is immigration policy what have the liberals just done the liberals have put

00:27:08.120 out a seven-year super visa for grandparents and parents to come why because in the harper years

00:27:12.780 family reunification was tossed out the window for those cohorts and instead you had a 10-year

00:27:18.660 super visa but you had to reapply every two years that you couldn't just come for seven years and stretch

00:27:23.960 you had two years of grandparents could come why do families bring over their grandparents it's to raise

00:27:29.260 their kids it's to have that not just cultural connection but so they can access opportunity because

00:27:35.120 they don't have to put their kids in daycare right and people weren't thinking along those lines

00:27:39.040 the conservatives didn't think that they need to go back to understand the family for new canadians

00:27:44.940 is everything and that is a value conservatives have they need to to connect on that um and the

00:27:50.760 final thing is free enterprise is just you know less red tape less regulation we've stood for that

00:27:54.840 forever so why aren't we beating that one on the drum like beating the drum on that too when it comes to

00:28:00.060 something like immigration tasha to what degree do you devise policies because you want to go after

00:28:06.560 certain voting blocks and because you don't want to be perceived as something negative and to what

00:28:12.080 degree do you do it because look hey we got to do it this way and we're going to explain why and what

00:28:16.420 i mean by that is right now we're up to about 400 000 uh immigrants a year intake into canada a lot of

00:28:22.080 people of course coming to the gta and those numbers are believed to be fueling some economic

00:28:26.040 concerns in terms of housing prices although that's totally all up in flux right now and you want

00:28:31.140 to say i don't think 400 000 is the right number right now and we've even had various social

00:28:36.060 service agencies who are very welcoming of immigrants say like we have uh concerns with

00:28:41.600 the absorption the current volume in terms of getting people here more predominantly that's

00:28:45.540 with refugees i remember during the syrian refugee crisis they said well hold on look we welcome

00:28:49.520 people but you know the numbers and the timeline just isn't working can we say 400 000 guys that's

00:28:55.660 happened really quickly you know the previous gold standard of 275 or whatnot we want to go down a bit

00:29:00.640 to 350 and then of course i know those headlines in the toronto star and the cbc oh you don't want

00:29:05.320 these type of people coming to canada and you're anti them you know that's not it we're talking

00:29:09.600 about well-being for all can we still do those things tasha well okay if um every i know i'm asking

00:29:17.160 a lot there yeah no no absolutely and it's a valid question and you know if um we had no problem

00:29:22.800 filling all the jobs in canada right now i'd be like yeah maybe we should be considering that if

00:29:27.680 women were having fewer more than 1.3 i think it is uh children per um replacement fertility uh i would

00:29:36.340 say yeah and to be clear i'm not making the argument we should reduce the number i'm just saying that

00:29:39.860 that conversation's a conversation you know yes and how can we have every conversation is valid and

00:29:44.960 this is the book has and exactly why we're having this conversation absolutely have the conversation

00:29:49.480 but what i'm saying is the facts it's math and this is what i look at in the book and say look

00:29:54.520 it's just math people this is not even um a value judgment it is that if you do not bring in a

00:30:01.680 certain level of immigrants if you do not get those immigrants and those new canadians voting for you

00:30:06.140 the party will not be able to put won't won't survive first of all you won't put forward any

00:30:11.220 conservative policy there won't be a conservative party what the reality is it is difficult for a

00:30:16.860 conservative party in a country of perpetual immigration and i go into that as well um because

00:30:21.800 is psychologically conservatives conserve right i understand absolutely we conserve the past

00:30:28.360 heritage is important continuity incrementalism those are conservative values if you've got a

00:30:33.540 country that is changing so fast of course how can you be in a conservative in that environment it's a

00:30:38.640 fair question i think it goes though to the basic values the conservatives have that i outlined about

00:30:44.420 faith and family and free enterprise and opportunity and all those things and it is integrating and we have

00:30:50.520 to make sure we are able to integrate absolutely we can't take on um numbers that we cannot integrate

00:30:56.600 into canada so it is a fair question are our services keeping up with this or not um you know are we

00:31:01.580 bringing in refugees who have more trouble absolutely settling in than economic immigrants or family

00:31:07.520 unification with economic 100 but the point is we need to look at it and say okay we want to build

00:31:13.220 this country how do we get the best and brightest here how do we make sure that everyone's got their

00:31:18.560 place and can succeed and has opportunity and grows things and i'll tell you you look at the native-born

00:31:24.320 canadian children versus children who are either immigrants or born to immigrants the university

00:31:30.080 attendance rate is much higher in the second group um there's it's a myth to say that people are a drain

00:31:35.340 on society it is not the case at all one argument a very pro-immigration argument that i hear a lot and

00:31:40.800 justin trudeau's i feel like i'm not sure what really the argument is in the numbers it could just be

00:31:44.880 pandering as you probably know our colleague terry corcoran he's previously argued that canada

00:31:49.300 should get to a hundred million population and you just need to bring in like as many immigrants as

00:31:53.120 you can a month a year as much as you can absorb just because you get to a hundred million and you

00:31:57.680 get an aircraft carrier you get to to be the big boy at the g7 you get to call the shots more in your

00:32:01.920 trade deals and it's like it's a compelling argument sure and the century initiative has been

00:32:06.600 embraced not just by terry but by corporate leaders um it's been ongoing for a while now to get to that

00:32:11.880 number by the end of the century um i think though that this goes to the balance we need to find too

00:32:17.260 and this is where the issues of you know woke culture and um i will say the tearing down of

00:32:23.580 national myths i talk about this in the book as well um we have to have a balance because you can't

00:32:29.200 simply change your culture i mean you can't first of all a country is built on certain parameters and

00:32:35.160 certain histories and you have to respect the good in that certainly there have been things canada's done

00:32:40.380 that we're very bad and that we have to atone for but you also have to make sure when new canadians

00:32:46.580 come here that it's that they understand we're a country with so much to be proud of you tear

00:32:51.120 everything down then what are you hanging your hat on why are you here so there has to be a connection

00:32:58.400 with the past and conservatives are very much about that they're about the continuity with the past and

00:33:03.060 the heritage of the past and building on the good i mean i think disraeli said that you know he's a

00:33:07.820 conservative to conserve what is good and he's a liberal to uh or progressive to get rid of what

00:33:13.320 is bad right and that is what conservatives should do they have to stress the good there's a patriotism

00:33:18.020 element the young people i talked to in particular said and one was was a new canadian who voiced this

00:33:22.980 very loudly i quote him in the book he said i like the conservatives because they are a patriotic

00:33:28.120 party they stand for canada and you know what he's right you got to be proud of your country so

00:33:33.900 there is a balance you know it's not just a race for the numbers to get so many people in

00:33:37.740 it's to make sure that they understand what they're getting into but but you know it's interesting

00:33:42.740 because there are a lot of immigrants who i think are coming because they have a better understanding

00:33:46.700 than perhaps justin trudeau even does about what's going on really interesting new book by lydia

00:33:51.780 perovic where she talks about the headline is uh the sub headline is an immigrant second thoughts and

00:33:57.520 and she comes at it from a more of a left-wing perspective but she came to canada from montenegro

00:34:02.160 and i think 1999 for these sort of canadian liberal values and one thing when i see like

00:34:07.580 statues of sir johnny mcdonald being torn down it's that well i don't think anybody comes here just to

00:34:11.780 see statues of sir johnny mcdonald but they're coming here because they've heard about canada

00:34:15.800 they've heard the canadian story they've heard of canadian values and they're like hey i want to be a

00:34:21.260 part of that i want to contribute to that and then they get here and they go but they're tearing that

00:34:25.300 down right and that is and it sends that message i i agree 100 um that is it's a negative message

00:34:32.880 that is sent to say that we will just basically junk the past um i think you know johnny mcdonald's

00:34:39.140 legacy obviously is more complicated than the one that i would have learned in school um that they

00:34:43.420 teach today and we understand more about the implications of his policies but he founded our

00:34:47.440 country you know without him we wouldn't be sitting here uh he he just he ascribed it to like

00:34:52.340 herding cats to get confederation actually to be a thing and when you read about him he you know

00:34:57.460 wanted to have peace between the french and the english in his government he he was a very you know

00:35:02.900 for his time he was very progressive he describes himself as a progressive conservative when you read

00:35:08.540 mcdonald's early stuff which i did because i read about i think uh 30 books to write this book um and

00:35:13.800 you read him he he was self-described as a progressive conservative his original party was the

00:35:19.600 liberal conservative party not liberal big owl really it's more values sort of you know uh values

00:35:25.780 of freedom and this kind of thing classical liberal values that was what his party was for and what it

00:35:30.620 was about so those are the values i mean you look at the charter and you look um you know at for the

00:35:36.260 freedoms that it guarantees that that's what canadians are proud of they're proud of those things in fact

00:35:41.460 people are complaining that trudeau's you know stomped all over them um and so it's not the liberal

00:35:46.700 pride is a monopoly just because they brought in the charter they have to respect what's in it too

00:35:50.380 and i think there's an argument to say if they have it all right i'm gonna be awful and ask you

00:35:53.520 one of those impossible questions again uh talking about going back to the the origins of canada sir

00:35:58.140 john a mcdonald and of course there's some people would say cancel canada today you can't talk about

00:36:01.660 him cancel sir john back when stephen harper first came in as prime minister the slogan i think it's the

00:36:08.160 campaign he won the first time the slogan was stand up for canada now looking back i don't know if

00:36:13.040 it's necessarily fair to say that you know jean christian and paul martin were not tearing down

00:36:16.960 canada uh by any means you know jean christian of course fought against uh quebec separation

00:36:21.540 a lot of people saying justin trudeau well he is you know we're a post-national stay he goes around

00:36:27.440 the world and he kind of smack talks us when he thinks we're not watching at these international

00:36:30.880 uh places maybe there is a need to stand up for canada for what we are for the canadian identity

00:36:37.640 tasha through your research and thinking about all these questions how are you now defining this

00:36:43.640 nation um i think we are we are a nation of opportunity it comes back to that because that

00:36:53.100 is in any nation that is built on immigration i mean the united states is too um they have a more

00:36:58.540 complicated history because of slavery and other considerations um you know we were not angels in

00:37:03.640 canada either and how we treated many people who came here but uh they have a more complex history

00:37:08.760 i would say with regards to that but any country that is a country of immigration is fundamentally a

00:37:13.440 country of opportunity because that is what people are seeking they are leaving home for a reason they

00:37:18.080 are coming to you for a reason they want a better life for themselves and their children and to me

00:37:22.540 conservatism offers the best possibility of that because it is based in equality of opportunity

00:37:28.300 edmund brooke wrote about that too it is that is the the whole idea is that people have the chance

00:37:34.760 to better themselves and to live in community not just as atoms but in community so canada is that

00:37:39.800 country of opportunity um i conclude the book with you know what could we do in the world like you say

00:37:45.300 like what could inspire people to say canada is is greater than x country or y country we have a chance

00:37:52.060 to contribute through our critical minerals industry which we are starting to do the ring

00:37:58.020 of fire was actually a big issue in the last ontario election um but you know when it comes to squaring

00:38:03.320 the energy environment circle canada is at the forefront and we could be a global leader in that

00:38:09.060 and build on the tradition the heritage we have of being a resource producing nation we should be proud

00:38:14.000 of that we should be proud of our oil and gas we are making every effort to extract it in as

00:38:19.020 responsible a way as possible whether it's carbon capture or other things we should trumpet that from

00:38:23.880 the rooftops too um but we should also say look we have a next gen of energy in the world and we can

00:38:30.440 power the green revolution with what's in our ground in the same way we have done for hundreds of years

00:38:35.320 we have powered you know the world in other ways with exports with timber with with um with mining too

00:38:42.060 with oil and gas we have we have contributed much more to the world than most countries our size

00:38:48.420 so we should be proud of that and we should move forward on that and have a vision of canada as

00:38:53.320 this energy superpower harper wanted to do it as a petro state but i think we have to go one step

00:38:57.720 further and what i like is that in this leadership all the candidates most of the candidates are talking

00:39:03.060 about that josh ray is talking about that paulia have talked about that i believe ajison did uh

00:39:07.680 roman babers alluded to it like it's on the lips of people so let's move on that one an idea that's

00:39:13.340 time has come attasha before we go we're here to talk about the book but you are supporting

00:39:19.080 jean charay all of these things you've said you clearly feel like jean charay is the best person

00:39:23.900 to champion all of this to win the leadership to become the next prime minister uh i i will say

00:39:29.220 i'm not so sold um and i see him as a bit of a yesterday's man and i see him as a bit of a

00:39:34.300 trudeau light but i i would be happy uh to be convinced otherwise why are you uh as supportive of

00:39:40.140 jean charay as you are i've known jean charay since i was involved in politics when i was a

00:39:45.440 teenager and um the jean charay you have today is the same jean charay you have then he is authentic

00:39:50.700 in his devotion to the country to the things he believes in that authenticity is priceless that is

00:39:57.120 today in in currency when you look at the leaders that have lost the last two elections for the

00:40:02.120 conservatives why did they lose it nobody trusted them why because they weren't authentic they ran as

00:40:07.020 one thing and then they they want to govern as another you can't do that he's got a track record

00:40:11.660 it stands up for itself in terms of his fiscal responsibility when he's premier of quebec

00:40:16.360 he is not a liberal as the other party or other campaigns would like to tag him that's very nice

00:40:22.060 but you know he kind of is though like he appointed tom mulcair to cabinet and i like tom he's a great

00:40:27.640 guy but he's an ndp slash liberal guy tom mulcair quit and went to the ndp exactly uh you don't know

00:40:33.020 jean charay when he was premier of quebec was fiscally far ahead of his time he set up a

00:40:38.200 to pay down the debt he was very concerned about that he lowered taxes he did a whole bunch of

00:40:43.680 things that conservatives had his party had the label conservative no one would be having this

00:40:47.600 conversation they didn't have a conservative party back then i talked to eric duen who's the

00:40:51.720 current leader of the conservative party i interview him in the book and we talk about

00:40:54.940 conservatism in quebec i mean it it's been there but it never had its own you know its own

00:40:59.800 defined space um jean charay was acted like a conservative within the liberals like christy

00:41:05.300 clark did in bc and so anyway that but apart from that it is his genuine desire and ability to unify

00:41:12.360 the country and i say in the book too the problem for canadian conservatives too has been that the

00:41:16.580 first order of business in canada is just keeping this country united and keeping all the pieces of

00:41:21.360 it working in concert when they are so often at odds he is a master at that and he is you know he's

00:41:27.460 come back out of private life he didn't have to really uh you know he gave up a lot to do this so

00:41:33.000 that's why i believe you know i believe in him and i believe he is the best person to do this he's got

00:41:37.820 the gravitas and he will also appeal to the voters that we need to appeal to because they will sense

00:41:42.540 that genuineness as well the right path how conservatives can unite inspire and take canada

00:41:47.640 forward the new book by tasha keratin tasha thanks so much for joining us it's been a great conversation

00:41:51.920 oh it's been wonderful anthony thank you full comment is a post media podcast i'm anthony fury

00:41:57.660 this episode was produced by andre prue with theme music by bryce hall kevin libban is the executive

00:42:03.340 producer you can subscribe to full comment on apple podcasts google spotify and amazon music you can

00:42:09.860 listen through the app or your alexa enabled devices you can help us by giving us a rating or

00:42:13.880 a review and by telling your friends about us thanks for listening

Full Comment - July 04, 2022

Conservatives have a real chance to win — or die

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