Full Comment - Gen. Rick Hillier says Canada faces ‘death by a thousand cuts’

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00:00:53.840 restaurants in canada for a limited time i'm chris hadfield astronaut and citizen of planet earth

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00:01:16.000 the victoria cross is perhaps the most celebrated and renowned medal for military valor in the world

00:01:22.480 bar none sure the americans have the purple heart the medal of honor but the victoria cross

00:01:27.440 there's something special about it just over 1300 people have ever received a victoria cross in its

00:01:33.200 history 99 canadians but no canadians have received the canadian version of the victoria cross which

00:01:40.000 came about in 1993 hello i'm brian lily this is the full comment podcast and today we're going to

00:01:45.840 discuss the whole issue of why nobody's received it and what's being done to rectify that there's a

00:01:52.800 new series that you'll be seeing in national post perhaps you've already seen it penned by people like

00:01:57.440 our guest today general rick hillier detailing this oversight or lack of awareness the need to actually

00:02:05.680 recognize people in our military history and the need to honor them we're not doing a good enough

00:02:12.400 job of that and that is why rick hillier is joining me now rick thanks for the time oh ryan glad to be

00:02:17.440 here this morning all right so i want to talk about all of this i want to talk about your great piece

00:02:22.480 in the national post but you've had a few great pieces in the national post lately and you've become

00:02:27.680 very active on social media and so i want to clear up something before we get into the meat and bones of

00:02:33.040 the hero amana's uh initiative um are you running for the conservative party of canada because that is

00:02:40.160 what everyone is emailing me about every time you have a great post well first of all i've been doing

00:02:45.360 a lot of post and i've been active on social media and i've had a couple of things in the national post

00:02:50.960 and some other parts of our media also and i've been doing that because i'm a frustrated somewhat

00:02:57.200 cynical canadian i'm worried about what's happening to our country i'm worried about the fact that inside

00:03:02.800 of canada we seem to have pitted every part every different region every part of our society against each

00:03:07.840 other i'm worried about the fact that we have been reduced to irrelevance internationally that's my

00:03:12.880 view obviously and and and i think a majority of canadians i think a majority of canadians feel

00:03:19.280 exactly the same way and and the reason i've been somewhat active and more active than before certainly

00:03:24.480 is to maybe just inspire some of those and cause some of them to be get louder and get that silent

00:03:29.600 majority turned into a a noisy rambunctious majority and actually say enough is enough in this country

00:03:36.800 we have a wonderful place that we live in we raise our families in we work in we call home

00:03:41.920 and we want to keep it that way and build it better for the future for our children grandchildren and

00:03:46.560 and the next generations of all that's why i'm doing those things not because i'm running for any kind

00:03:52.080 of political office so you're not running for any particular office any party at this time you're

00:03:57.520 just venting your spleen and trying to make things better no i'm not venting my spleen ryan i'm trying

00:04:03.040 to make things better by encouraging others to come out and talk also and and say okay right we

00:04:08.560 we agree we don't agree with all those things but we agree with a lot of it our country needs some

00:04:13.120 emergency medical first aid if you will and we are going to get in involved and i want people to be

00:04:19.200 able to talk to their members of parliament and talk to their members of the provincial assembly and

00:04:24.480 talk to those who want to be members of parliament and make sure that they're helping shape those

00:04:29.600 individuals and making sure that when they vote for somebody that they're voting for people who

00:04:33.600 have identical views or similar views to what those individuals have so that's what i'm trying to do

00:04:38.560 and is there a little bit of venting yeah of course there's a general i'd um i'd say those were very

00:04:44.400 long answers like a politician to give but i know you're from newfoundland and you got a ton like a

00:04:48.480 mounties boot and you can talk forever so i'll put it down to that it's a newfoundland

00:04:53.760 training so let it and newfoundland big big contributor to our military i can't remember

00:05:00.320 being on a a base or at a military event where there's not someone from newfoundland and labrador

00:05:05.040 there uh and that's the tradition you come from um you know i i would say that i come from a military

00:05:11.760 family my grandfather uh still got a stepbrother serving up at cfb petawawa um we were all involved

00:05:18.720 in cadets or reserves or something there was always an attachment to the military but that's an

00:05:23.440 anomaly in canada these days uh do let's talk about why you decided to do heroes among us we

00:05:33.040 we don't fund our military properly we don't honor and look after our veterans properly and those who

00:05:38.880 do serve we're not honoring properly with with medals so let's start with the the canadian victoria

00:05:46.000 cross it's been around for 31 years now is that right 1993 and not a single person has

00:05:53.120 ever received it uh brian so i'm doing all of those things in part because of what you mentioned

00:06:01.040 you know we're not funding our military property properly canadians don't know those folks but

00:06:06.160 one of the things that i'm doing with some incredible individuals is trying to tell the

00:06:10.880 stories of those people who have inspired me and who got me out of bed in the morning when i was wearing

00:06:15.600 a uniform and literally want to go and soldier with them because they were out to change the world

00:06:21.040 and in particular these are the incredible heroes among us who give and give so much and are willing

00:06:28.000 to sacrifice sometimes up to and including their lives and they ask for almost nothing back and those

00:06:34.480 are inspirational stories and these days you get very few people who give without asking either more

00:06:41.280 back or asking for a lot back and so because these men and women are wearing a uniform their families

00:06:46.880 who stand beside them during the most stressful of times because they give so much they ask for

00:06:51.760 nothing back they're inspirational in an incredible manner canadians don't know about them and we want

00:06:56.640 to tell those stories and we started with the national post a businessman and philanthropist kevin reed is

00:07:02.160 a good friend of mine and business colleague with the national post and with historically canada to tell

00:07:07.200 those stories supported by true paper love so canadians can be inspired also and we can pay

00:07:12.160 tribute to those individuals and there are so many of them and canadians don't know about them and you

00:07:18.000 can go back in history and talk about them but we've got so many of them living among us right now

00:07:23.120 that we want to highlight them we want to inspire canadians with them and with their stories of service

00:07:28.880 and we want to make canada a better place because of that you've got a great story of jess

00:07:33.680 la rochelle and your piece that went out friday in national post and i want to ask you about jess but

00:07:39.440 i mean i'd argue that for a long time we haven't done a good job on this uh i was part of the honor

00:07:45.440 guard that uh was there to just you know be showpieces wasn't a very good soldier but i was good at drills

00:07:51.760 so they put me in the honor guard for changing the name of the james street armories to the john weir

00:07:56.000 foot armories uh john weir foot was a chaplain in the canadian armed forces was at dieppe i barely

00:08:03.840 knew anything about a story we were changing the name of the armory and we weren't even informed of

00:08:09.120 what was going on and and why we do a bad job of telling our stories so i appreciate that you're going

00:08:17.120 out of your way to try and fix this by telling the stories of people like jess la rochelle he's one of

00:08:22.480 many that are going to be featured and honored in this uh this series at nationalpost.com and and in

00:08:28.880 the print edition but tell me a little bit about him because uh he tragically passed away last august

00:08:35.680 before he could be properly recognized i understand he got some medals for for valor but not the canadian

00:08:41.360 victoria cross give me his backstory because he sounds like he deserves it well you know i think he does

00:08:49.600 i think a relook at his entire file with the richness of detail that we now have that is to say

00:08:56.800 after the action after these years have gone by being able to talk to people who were there talk to

00:09:01.360 his commanding officer who was also involved in that fight and i believe that maybe we just undershot

00:09:06.960 with jessler our shell by one medal he star of military valor versus getting to victoria across but

00:09:13.600 look let's just step back to john weir foot that you talked about and how is it that we don't

00:09:18.720 know about this incredible canadian from the durham region a padre joined the royal amilton light

00:09:24.240 infantry and if you stand on the beaches of dieppe and just try to visualize the cannon up in each

00:09:29.840 side of those cliffs shooting across that beach mortar rounds coming in and detonating wounded and

00:09:35.760 injured soldiers others you know lying in the rocks trying to find cover and pod padre john foot

00:09:42.400 makes trip after trip to pick up wounded soldiers under fire across that beach brings them to the

00:09:47.840 shelter of an abandoned landing craft that obviously could not go back into the water

00:09:52.960 after it landed got shot up by the germans got you know 10 or 20 of them into the shelter of that

00:09:58.240 landing craft and then as the tide started to come in and the landing craft came back in to take the

00:10:03.280 troops off the beach he started carrying them again under fire from that landing craft to the landing

00:10:09.440 craft coming to take the troops off the beach got them into the landing craft to send them safely

00:10:14.080 back to england and the commanding officer to riley said hey padre time to get on board and john foot

00:10:20.640 looked at his commanding officer look back on the beach where there were hundreds of canadians who

00:10:27.120 were going to be left there and going to go in into prisoner of war camps and said my flock on the beach

00:10:32.880 needs me more than those back in england he voluntarily went into a prisoner of war camp was a leader while

00:10:39.040 he was there kept canadian spirits up and came back and was awarded the victoria cross he's buried

00:10:44.160 in coburg cemetery he was a minister in the government of ontario continued to serve his nation

00:10:49.360 no canadian knows about it how come we don't teach that in school how come brian that we don't have a

00:10:54.400 movie made about padre john foot or smoky smith or francis pagamagaba that great sniper from world war

00:11:02.560 one just larochelle i believe is in that same category you know in in october of 2006 he went

00:11:09.280 to strong point center with his platoon they were down one section so instead of three sections of

00:11:14.400 soldiers there were two uh the commanding officer was there was with what we call his tack headquarters

00:11:20.240 and they got hit immediately after they arrived by a significant taliban attack the the section was

00:11:26.320 shorthanded master corporal jeremy leblanc was the section second in commander he said i got to put

00:11:31.280 somebody up in that tower as an observation tower to give us early warning we have a rule you never

00:11:36.800 put one person by themselves in a spot like that always two he said i don't have enough to put two

00:11:41.840 people do i have a volunteer to go just stuck his hand up so volunteered right away to go to the point

00:11:48.480 of the fight the most dangerous spot no sooner was he in that mud walled tower than a rocket propelled

00:11:54.160 grenade entered the tower and detonated above his head and just said you know i was looking up he said

00:11:58.800 it looked like star wars with all the things that were happening around me he is slammed by the

00:12:04.640 explosion back into a mud wall that's just like steel it's been hardened in the desert sun for

00:12:09.680 decades and decades uh he goes unconscious comes back to consciousness very quickly he's got pain in

00:12:16.560 his back he's got pain in his ears his eardrums are broken he's got pain in his eyes he's shaky he

00:12:22.160 doesn't really know what's going on then he gets himself back into the fight and he sees the attack is

00:12:26.480 coming he opens up with his machine gun uses all of his ammunition he had about 800 rounds with him

00:12:32.800 uses most of that but saved 100 rounds or thereabouts for that last ditch defense and then he started

00:12:39.360 using the m72 rockets you know the ones in the cardboard tubes that you throw away the disposable

00:12:44.640 tube after you fire it you know you pick it up you pop the caps off you slide it open you aim you shoot

00:12:49.760 you throw it away you pick up another and he started doing that one after the other at the individual

00:12:55.120 taliban fighters who were attacking broke the back of the attack after several hours meanwhile

00:13:01.840 in his section we had two soldiers that were already killed and and others wounded there uh

00:13:08.160 the platoon commander came bounding up to head towards the observation post and just make sure

00:13:13.600 we were still good to go and and he said as i approached and i saw the destruction from that rpg round

00:13:19.200 and other rounds he said i i said there's nobody alive in there and all of a sudden a little head

00:13:24.240 stuck himself up and and said hey sir i'll give you a covering fire come on in and it was jess of

00:13:28.800 course and the platoon commander said okay i'm going to replace you and we'll get two people up

00:13:33.440 here and jess said sir i know the lay of the land don't put somebody else in here right now i'm good

00:13:38.720 to go and he stayed there until darkness got reinforced by his platoon warrant officer for the

00:13:43.120 nighttime they held that position the next morning uh the fight was over came out went back to uh

00:13:49.520 candor our airfield and helped carry the body of his very close friend private williamson onto the

00:13:55.120 airplane for that last trip home it was only after that that jess went to uh one of our combat medics

00:14:01.200 and said hey i'm hurting a little bit and we discovered you know broken back right he had

00:14:06.480 vertebrae broken his eardrums are busted the retina in his right eye is detached and people have had that

00:14:12.560 talk about how painful that is he's been concussed and obviously he was taken out of the fight and

00:14:18.000 began a long trip back to canada and then from 2006 to last august he went on a long journey of

00:14:25.280 of i think sometimes botched medical care misdiagnosed issues and drugs that really

00:14:32.000 caused his body to wear down and and in august of this past year sadly we lost that beautiful young

00:14:37.520 man because of a massive organ failure and we lost an inspirational canadian this guy was just an

00:14:44.320 unassuming quiet individual he loved having campfires he loved sitting by the fire talking with

00:14:50.240 his friends and family love having the cold beer and i went up to north bay during cove and i had

00:14:54.720 the opportunity to meet with him and let him tell his story because he he's not boasting about anything

00:15:00.000 he just says you know hey i was here we did that i couldn't have done it without my battle buddies

00:15:04.160 and yet he did all of those things we awarded as a nation just the star of military valor i was the

00:15:10.800 chair of the canadian forces honors and awards committee at that time i remember talking to

00:15:15.440 his commanding officer and say you know we were that close to a bc recommendation for jess and we

00:15:22.320 elected to go with star of military valor in hindsight i regret that we were new to the game of war and

00:15:29.200 and valor and the various levels of it i said one time we were kind of like the french figure skating

00:15:34.400 judge at the olympics you know we were saving our marks for something more uh valorous more courageous

00:15:40.960 came across us uh came across our our committee to to honor and to recognize and i believe we made a

00:15:47.520 mistake with jess and i think what would be a good thing to do is have some kind of independent

00:15:51.360 commission review the military honors and awards as we see fit and and just confirm yes it's right

00:15:57.760 or b no it should be either upgraded or or or changed and i think if you looked at jess larachelle's

00:16:04.160 file and his citation and again the richness of detail i think the decision would be pretty clear

00:16:10.240 to upgrade him to the victoria cross regardless his story needs to be told canadians get inspired by

00:16:16.000 it one of the things that that you write in your piece about uh the heroes among us in in national

00:16:21.680 post is that uh when you look at the description of what jess larachelle did it's similar to others

00:16:29.280 who were awarded the victoria cross in previous eras it is you know it's valor in the presence of

00:16:36.480 the enemy by himself volunteering first by himself into the fight wounded right at the start of that

00:16:43.120 fight gets back into the fight and effectively saves that position and supports his platoon and supports

00:16:49.680 the troops that are there fighting for canada doing what we ask them to do and then only after

00:16:54.480 the fight is over and things are stabilized does he take himself to the medic and say i'm hurting here

00:17:00.080 and hurting here was an understatement that was extraordinary and yeah i do think it's right up

00:17:05.360 there i do think it's valorous i do think it's valor in the presence of the enemy which is really

00:17:09.920 the basic criteria for the victoria cross and i'd love to see jess's uh actions relooked by some kind

00:17:16.960 of independent council independent review and i think that would be a wonderful thing and i'd be

00:17:21.680 confident that they would be they that they would reassess is is award and they would upgrade it to the

00:17:27.600 victoria cross but you know something even if they reassessed it and said no it's appropriate at the

00:17:33.120 star of military valor i still would be satisfied that we as a nation have the ability to actually

00:17:37.680 relook those things because right now we don't and as you said to tell his story i know that you were

00:17:45.200 in afghanistan um were you there at the same time as jess or or a bit later yeah no i was in and out

00:17:52.320 of afghanistan brian multiple times and particularly in 2000s not just particularly in 2006 but yes in

00:17:58.480 2006 when the one rcr the one royal canadian regiment battalion battle group from patawawa

00:18:04.640 was the force on the ground of which jess was a part the commanding officer was lieutenant colonel

00:18:10.000 homer lavoy who was also at the fight and who supports uh an independent review for jess to see

00:18:17.360 if he warrants the victoria cross and and so i was there during that time frame i don't recall

00:18:23.280 specifically meeting just then met him a bunch of times since we invited him to read all in i think it

00:18:30.000 was the spring of 2007 and he showed up at read all at what we called a heroes ball heroes gala uh he showed up

00:18:38.960 in dress uniform looking so good and looking so young uh oh my lord and uh paulo accolini from

00:18:46.320 the vancouver canucks one of the owners of the vancouver canucks was with me and he came over it was

00:18:50.720 when ottawa was in the finals here against hannah i mean he came over and said hey general hillier

00:18:54.720 i got some tickets here for the game tomorrow night saturday night he said i'd like to pass

00:18:58.240 them to you i said look i'm i don't want those tickets thank you very much but i know just a guy

00:19:03.600 that you could maybe make his day and i called jess over i said this guy wants to talk to you and

00:19:07.600 introduce them and he gave them to jess and said i hope you enjoy it and after jess came back to me

00:19:13.120 and he said sir he said i've never been to an nhl you think these are good tickets i suggest you know

00:19:19.360 this is one of the owners of a national hockey league club i think they're pretty good tickets

00:19:23.920 indeed and and he went off to the game with his then girlfriend and and enjoyed it immensely i talked

00:19:28.640 to him after about that and yeah the joy that you can bring to people with small gestures like that

00:19:33.520 it's so wonderful and paul aquilini did that that night it was awesome and i i i was uh at that

00:19:41.440 point uh uh probably one of the reporters outside covering all the uh the antics going on uh at the

00:19:47.440 arena um so tell me a little bit more and then we're going to take a break tell me a little bit

00:19:53.200 more about the people that you're going to be profiling over the coming weeks because uh as you say

00:19:59.120 this is a a partnership it's yourself it's kevin reed it's historica it's national post and post

00:20:05.600 media it's the true patriot love foundation and we're kind of the publishing vehicle for this so

00:20:12.080 this podcast series of stories um how many people are you looking to profile over the next little while

00:20:18.400 how many stories are there to tell i i'm guessing there's plenty but there's more than just jess

00:20:24.320 la rochelle that you think should be considered for a victoria cross brian i hope we're going to

00:20:30.000 tell hundreds of stories but we're going to start with eight to ten of of current members of our

00:20:35.920 society minus jess of course that we talk about posthumously and we talk about pat towers and we'll

00:20:41.520 talk about willie mcdonald and bill fletcher and heroes like that over the next eight to ten weeks

00:20:47.280 and then i hope that if this is successful and canadians are inspired and canadians want to read about

00:20:52.480 those heroes in that very very readable fashion if that's the way to describe it as the first stories

00:20:58.800 are out there and and you know the story that was online yesterday in the national post you know if

00:21:03.760 you don't get us out of here we're all going to die oh my goodness that resonated with so many

00:21:08.160 canadians including so many veterans who came back and said yes yes yes we were there we we were

00:21:13.840 part of different things but something like that and and what a great story and i hope that what we're

00:21:18.560 going to do brian is tell the stories of those who've won the star of military valor who've been

00:21:23.360 recognized by our country with that second highest military award some of the stories some stories of

00:21:28.480 people who have been recognized with the medal of military valor that second highest award and then

00:21:32.720 maybe start stepping back in history and tell the stories of padre john foot who just continues to

00:21:38.480 inspire me because of his service and his sacrifice his servant leadership if you will uh sergeant

00:21:45.040 tommy prince who was part of the devil's brigade and this guy was a one-man wrecking machine all by

00:21:50.480 himself francis began who i mentioned yeah i i can't believe that we don't tell the story of

00:21:58.560 the devil's brigade quite enough absolutely i mean there's one horrible movie out there

00:22:05.760 and that's about it right now and when you go back and look at what occurred and i had to pretty

00:22:10.400 uh you know a little little earlier in my life in military uh to meet rsm loveque and in patawawa

00:22:16.320 and he came in to be the first uh formation special sergeant major of the special service force which

00:22:22.560 was formed in patawawa way back in the late 70s and he had been in the devil's brigade and oh my

00:22:28.320 goodness the aura around that guy when he was out doing his morning i think he was 52 years old or

00:22:33.200 something 53 and he'd be out on a morning run doing five miles with his rucksack on and all of us young

00:22:38.960 pups you know looking around and said well that guy can do it hey we're going to be there too and

00:22:43.040 we want to tell the stories of those individuals and i mentioned francis pagamagabo you know an

00:22:48.080 incredible canadian sniper wounded a variety of times in world war one gassed at the first the

00:22:54.160 second battle of ypres and when the when the canadian division was attacked by the germans using chlorine

00:22:58.640 gas so badly that for the rest of his life he had to sleep sitting up otherwise he would have drowned

00:23:04.160 he was credited i think with 476 kills can you imagine that a sniper crawling out into no man's

00:23:10.160 land settling in there for hours sometimes several days and getting that shot and taking out a leader

00:23:15.200 on the other side and improving the odds and and what's most incredible about him beyond all of

00:23:20.400 those incredible things is that his first battle was to join the canadian army to build a fight for

00:23:26.240 canada because he was indigenous and the canadian weren't recognized as full citizens and he fought to

00:23:33.040 join the army was one of a very few number i think number was 26 in world war one and what a

00:23:38.400 different teammate we need to tell all of those stories because they're so incredibly uh fascinating

00:23:43.840 and to me inspiring let me finish it one more andrew minars that that officer in the air force on a

00:23:50.000 bombing run in 1944 and they get shot down the lancaster gets shot down they're going down in flames

00:23:56.800 and he goes to jump out and he sees that his friend uh boyd last name who was in the tail gunners

00:24:02.880 cupola uh trapped can't get out he goes back to help him with his bare hands can't get the the can't

00:24:08.800 get him free his his flight suit is on fire his parachute is starting to burn he gets a fire axe

00:24:14.400 and still continues and cannot get him out boyd says you know get out get out get out save yourself

00:24:19.680 minarski stood up saluted him bailed out through the billy uh the belly hatch and when he landed he was of

00:24:25.840 course badly injured because of the flames and the landing because his parachute was partly burnt

00:24:30.560 he died a day or so later oh wow he'd actually survived the crash of the lancaster and just went

00:24:36.800 into a prisoner of war camp for a year and a half finally came back to canada and over 46 and 40

00:24:42.320 1946 and 47 was telling this incredible story about what minarski had tried to do and his courage and

00:24:48.400 his valor and finally i think it was 1947 andrew minarski uh was awarded posthumously of course the

00:24:54.560 victoria cross we have his victoria cross and when we do our our gala reception at the hockey

00:25:00.080 hall of fame we're going to have his victoria cross there we're also going to have that fire

00:25:04.080 hacks and kind of sends a little tingle down my spine when i think about that when i say that because

00:25:09.040 there's our history right there who couldn't be inspired by a young man out of winnipeg

00:25:13.360 who would do such a thing to save his friend and paid for it with his life

00:25:18.560 heroic canadian we need to be inspired by him all right and that gala as you say hockey hall of

00:25:24.880 fame june 26 uh you'll be there ron mclean will be there uh as mc lots of great canadians out to

00:25:31.760 hear those stories rick we're going to take a break when we come back i i want to talk to you about the

00:25:37.200 state of the canadian military uh a bit and also some of the criticisms that you made i think very valid

00:25:44.240 criticisms in a recent piece about how we've been operating as a country more when we return

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00:27:07.920 the trudeau government is promising to increase defense spending but it's not something that's

00:27:13.040 going to happen very quickly in the meantime we're getting some heavy criticism south of the border

00:27:18.960 u.s senator senate leader mitch mcconnell on the floor just days ago now there's still work to be done

00:27:27.120 not every ally is taking its treaty obligations seriously enough and one of the most continuing

00:27:34.080 concerning laggards isn't even a european country but is our neighbor to the north

00:27:41.360 like america canada is at once an atlantic pacific and arctic nation and it's time for ottawa

00:27:51.520 to take its obligations to nato to norad and to its own defense more seriously

00:27:58.240 so general fair criticism we're laggards when it comes to nato we're laggards when it comes to

00:28:05.120 defense spending norad all of that brian fair criticism uh we have been for a long time we are

00:28:12.000 now more than we were before if that is possible uh our allies have largely lost faith in us uh we are

00:28:20.480 considered now i i've said this before i believe it we are irrelevant uh to what happens on the

00:28:26.000 international scene and i think that's incredibly dangerous for canada first of all we get dismissed

00:28:30.320 in washington and and as every canadian knows everything in our country is related somewhat to

00:28:35.760 our relationship with the our great neighbor to the south uh whether it's our economy whether it's

00:28:40.640 human rights or whether it's a legal system or whether it's immigration or whether it is defense

00:28:45.600 and security and and and we depend on having a credibility with that great neighbor and we are

00:28:51.280 losing that if we've not already lost it completely here for the rest of nato uh you know canada we're

00:28:57.360 not even consulted considered anymore and and that's dangerous because we don't get a chance therefore

00:29:04.080 to shape the international environment in a way that supports what canada's interests are and what

00:29:09.520 canada's values are and other people are going to shape the environment and we're going to be left on

00:29:13.520 the sideline looking in and then complaining about what occurs uh yeah we are laggards on defense and

00:29:19.360 uh you know we've been considered and i use it's a harsh word we've been considered a parasite on

00:29:24.000 defense for years uh right now and i know that the defense policy update is very aspirational i'm

00:29:29.920 being very kind here very aspirational says we're going to get the 1.76 or something like this uh in

00:29:37.040 the years out and there are a lot of people been analyzing that and they cannot get to those

00:29:41.760 percentages and numbers so the belief is that it's worse than what has actually been articulated

00:29:46.960 okay let let me jump to that in a minute you mentioned being irrelevant we've always been

00:29:56.160 um a a bit underfunded a bit uh we don't have the same level of equipment as many of our allies

00:30:04.480 but the the claim was always that when the canadian showed up if they didn't have the equipment they had

00:30:10.640 better training they were able to do more with less and i'm i i think that we are so underfunded i'm not

00:30:18.960 sure that that's true anymore and that's not an insult to those who are serving now we just don't have

00:30:25.040 the capabilities we used to we we're outsourcing our fighter pilot training you're gonna have to go to

00:30:31.680 finland or italy or texas if you want to be a fighter pilot in this country now it's it's unbelievable how

00:30:39.680 much we have undervalued and undermined the capabilities of the armed forces and brian we

00:30:46.000 have uh we've lost capabilities and and i look at as we i look at particularly at my greatest concern

00:30:51.920 i look particularly at the army and even if you think that the defense policy update was a good

00:30:57.280 thing moving forward and we're going to implement it and obviously the funding and the support for it

00:31:01.680 is so far out there that this government certainly is not going to implement it and whatever government

00:31:05.520 is next after that might implement some of it but more likely it's going to change as we go down

00:31:11.360 line here you know the it's very aspirational for the navy of what the navy is going to get and the

00:31:16.320 cost is humongous going out there but we're we're a long ways away from having new surface combatants

00:31:22.880 being able to sail and be part of our international alliances and nato specifically and do canadian

00:31:28.960 security on our oceans uh we're a long ways from having the f-35 as the as the fighter that we need

00:31:35.760 to be part of norad and and and part of those international flying the f-35 but they are coming

00:31:41.280 there is just a tiny what i know but but we we delayed for eight years we should have had more than

00:31:48.240 in 2016. we delayed more than eight years brian and and you know as i came in to be chief of defense

00:31:53.200 staff canada had made agreement that we were going to have the f-35 and we had committed to develop it so we

00:31:58.320 could participate in support to that entire fleet around the world and canadian business would have

00:32:03.520 this awesome opportunity and then we backed out of all those things and so we could have had that

00:32:08.000 aircraft you know contracted and and purchased and started to come in service you know six to ten years

00:32:13.520 ago quite frankly when the first ones were coming off the line but my point on the navy and the air

00:32:17.920 force is if if this defense policy update longer term gets implemented in any way shape or form with

00:32:24.720 more money than is than is allocated there right now a lot more the navy and the air force are

00:32:29.840 heading in a good direction and yeah they got many challenges including people what really concerns me

00:32:34.880 is the army i mean like 3.5 percent of the monies i think it was 75 billion and that defense policy

00:32:41.440 updated articulated 3.5 percent was coming towards the army and the army is essentially broken their

00:32:48.960 equipment is broken the numbers of troops that they've got are way way down the the leadership

00:32:54.640 is leaving you know like there are so many people leaving particularly folks who have been commanding

00:33:00.080 officers of combat units and combat service support units and combat support units and those are the

00:33:04.880 people who become the senior leaders just a you know a couple years down the road after they're

00:33:09.520 leaving and you see the numbers going out the door it's quite incredible and and you know you see

00:33:14.160 words like we're going to look at options for replacing the tank options for replacing the

00:33:20.080 artillery options for uh anti air defense systems and options you know we went and bought we said

00:33:27.120 last may government of canada we're going to help ukraine and we're going to do it by giving them

00:33:30.960 an air defense battery the nascent battery and it's going to cost almost 500 million dollars they are

00:33:36.720 very expensive and we're going to do it so we had government announcement we had policy in place we had

00:33:41.600 the dollars there and we know we have a waiting line the contract might be signed by now but it

00:33:47.280 sure wasn't a month ago and yet we can't go and do the same for the king and forces we've got to say

00:33:51.920 we're going to look at options to replace all the things that we need replaced i worry about the army

00:33:57.680 i think the army is as close to being broken completely as you can get and not be broken and

00:34:03.280 i really worry about the missions coming forward because when you put troops on the ground all of a

00:34:07.520 sudden you lose the ability to protect them if they don't go in with the right equipment we

00:34:10.800 learned those lessons in afghanistan they're painful lessons learned i just give you the example of

00:34:15.680 the helicopters we did not have the helicopters to deploy we got them finally compliments of the

00:34:21.520 united states of america who were wonderful to help us out there but we went on the assumption that

00:34:26.720 our allies would bring the helicopters and yes they did and when push came to shove guess who got the

00:34:32.000 use of those helicopters first second and third it was the folks who brought them and we were left

00:34:37.360 languishing because we didn't come with the right kit we can't continue to ignore lessons like that

00:34:42.480 we've got to go with the places when we go with the right equipment to support our troops when they

00:34:48.000 go there to do the job because they'll go they're awesome canadians should we be changing the way we do

00:34:54.560 defense procurement fancy word for buying stuff for the military there's long been a problem of

00:35:01.280 uh things taking too long cost overruns and i think of 2006 i think it was 2006 i don't think it went

00:35:10.800 into 2007 uh we're in the afghanistan uh the harper conservatives had just taken over government we

00:35:19.040 needed heavy lift planes they just went and bought straight off the the line bowing uh graciously in the

00:35:26.720 american military graciously said yeah you can jump the queue but we didn't say oh well we need to

00:35:31.520 canadianize this oh we need to uh find a way to you know uh make sure that there's industrial benefits

00:35:38.080 for every single province in the country which is what we far too often do you know our allies are

00:35:44.320 all operating great kit and then we spend years talking about ways to make sure that a plant in flin

00:35:50.240 flon gets a cut of the action or that we've canadianized the equipment somehow which is a

00:35:56.000 minor thing shouldn't we just be saying let's buy the best equipment we can at the best price

00:36:01.760 buy the same stuff our allies are using yes i go back to hope oh five oh six oh seven obviously i was

00:36:07.600 right in the middle of all of that you were cds at the time weren't you on was and and and we were

00:36:12.880 driving that hard and and let me just tell you what the key to success was the key to success

00:36:17.520 were was two governments back to back paul martin's liberal government followed by stephen

00:36:22.800 arper's conservative government first a minority government but he acted like a majority government

00:36:27.680 governments who were in support and and we went to cabinet and and then secondly we had a deputy

00:36:33.120 minister in defense ward elcock who was the finest public servant i think i've ever met who was so

00:36:39.600 crucial to getting things through that bureaucratic system that ottawa has that likes to stop things and

00:36:45.600 tie it in a gordian knot we went to cabinet with things and even prime minister arper said to myself and

00:36:51.120 ward elcock before we went into the cabinet room you know you've got five asks it was the chinook

00:36:55.520 helicopter the c17 transport airplane the c130j transport the chinook helicopter and i think i can't

00:37:01.760 remember it was the tanks or the trucks and he said i too much he said i think you may get one with

00:37:07.040 support from cabinet we went into cabinet we walked out of cabinet with all five projects supported and six

00:37:12.960 months later we had c17s landing uh at an air show in in abbotsford bc flown by a canadian crew and three

00:37:22.880 days later they were on a mission to help an island in the in the caribbean that had been hammered by a hurricane

00:37:28.400 and we were there it was quite incredible what you need is the support of a government you know the

00:37:33.120 the procurement system is is simple if a prime minister says to his cabinet we need to we need to rebuild the

00:37:40.880 canadian forces and that includes equipment obviously and i want you know a lead you got

00:37:45.840 procurement and industry canada and defense put the defense minister in the lead the three of you work

00:37:50.240 together report to me every month and i want to see progress made and i don't want a 10-year

00:37:54.960 procurement cycle i want a two-year or less procurement cycle let's get it done and let's get

00:37:58.800 it done so that canada can be better and be stronger and last thing i'd say to the minister of

00:38:05.040 defense because i know i talked to bill blair and i'm not telling tales at school i know he's very

00:38:09.280 frustrated with some of the bureaucracy that he gets tangled in himself and frustrated that contracts

00:38:14.160 don't get done better and more quickly hey fire some people you know fire some people we got people

00:38:18.800 that are turning things into knots and slowing it down because they're afraid of the risk involved

00:38:23.920 perhaps personally to them for their careers or somebody i don't know but like fire some people

00:38:28.800 and send a message just as to get done i give credit to bill blair i you know chat to bill i i've

00:38:34.400 known him a long time i respect him you know he got that p8 uh through cabinet and the p8 you know

00:38:40.720 the the surveillance aircraft going to replace our p3s and he successfully fought off that ludicrous

00:38:46.560 approach by bombardier to try and make a product in canada which was not ready which was not going

00:38:52.480 to meet the capability in my view and and which would have been absolutely wrong he drove it through

00:38:57.360 to get the p8 because that's what the canadian forces need and that's what canada needs i give

00:39:01.440 them full credit for having done that let's um let's talk about the problems with recruitment

00:39:08.080 and retention in the military and i'm not going to you know just ask you to crap on the military

00:39:13.200 for the next 10 15 minutes but i do want to ask you about this because recruitment has long been a

00:39:19.200 struggle but it's gotten worse and retired lieutenant general michelle uh masonuf who's written a nice

00:39:26.880 piece in national post saying that you're right on a bunch of other stuff he was giving a speech a while

00:39:33.440 ago and he's been on the podcast talking about how woke culture infecting the military doesn't help with

00:39:40.160 recruitment is that part of what's going on you know uh saying to guys hey come and uh in fight for

00:39:48.560 your country no we don't have equipment for you but we've got some nice man ponds here for you uh is

00:39:54.480 that part of the issue that's going on with recruitment that it it kind of undermines the

00:39:59.680 the military ethos well i think there are a lot of things ongoing and is that one of them absolutely

00:40:05.680 and you know i'm a firm believer warriors not woke that's what we need warriors not woke and and and so

00:40:12.720 people are not attracted to the canadian forces uh by any of the changes that have been occurring yes i'm

00:40:19.200 100 supportive of leaders building an inclusive environment and and and that so i don't care which

00:40:26.160 part of our society we come from in canada i can feel comfortable in the canadian forces because my

00:40:30.960 home is going to be there and i can serve my nation but there are a lot of also again bureaucratic

00:40:36.960 obstacles to what's going on you know the fact that you apply for uh to go into a reserve unit or the

00:40:42.880 regular force and it's months before you hear back from the recruiters and then in your your

00:40:47.920 application takes months to work its way through and by then most people have lost hope they've

00:40:52.640 lost faith they've lost interest and they're gone elsewhere and there are stories that abound out there

00:40:57.920 we went through this and in 2005 2006 2007 and and you know i called the recruiting team in and we sat

00:41:04.960 down and walked through this and there was a major general then lieutenant general walt semianov

00:41:10.400 uh lieutenant colonel bernie de reed down in recruiting and they changed the system and i gave

00:41:14.640 them a challenge is you know we want 70 of people that you see come into your in front of your

00:41:20.240 recruiters and oh by the way don't sit in your recruiting center waiting for people to come to

00:41:25.360 you you go to where people are and that's what we started doing i want 70 of them that are enrolled

00:41:30.800 conditionally within the first seven days like you know 15 minutes after you start talking to somebody

00:41:35.680 you know whether or not you're interested presupposing what they have said and what they tell you

00:41:40.800 under application is true you know whether you're interested in them as a soldier or not out of the

00:41:45.520 remaining 30 percent take 20 you know take 80 of that and say okay we'll give you a month to enroll

00:41:51.920 them there may be some things that you have to verify and if you get a red flag that goes up on the

00:41:56.400 remainder take your time with them if you remember that that horrible man who killed the 14 women

00:42:01.040 in quebec and and and and that terrible terrible tragedy we had refused him entry into the canadian

00:42:07.200 forces because a red flag went up we don't want to miss those and and we said we can change that and

00:42:12.400 we change our recruiting i kept stretching the goals for that team we went you know 100 100 of

00:42:18.720 the number we need which is let's say 5 000. then i said oh we want 115 because we're going to grow the

00:42:23.600 forces and we did it we can still do it right now people are not being attracted though when you get

00:42:29.040 the prime minister and the minister of finance on tv saying you know the canadian forces just don't get

00:42:33.360 it they don't understand over there you're beating up on your own armed forces which

00:42:36.880 happened well there was that uh publication it's an official publication of the canadian

00:42:42.720 armed forces it's filled with academics came out with an entire issue recently i forget the name of

00:42:48.320 it um saying that the canadian armed forces is filled with toxic masculinity and as a tool of white

00:42:53.920 supremacy okay you've just told all your soldiers that they're the worst people on the planet

00:43:00.400 now stick around a bit longer tell your friends to sign up that's not going to work any uh any leader

00:43:05.920 knows that the way to not be successful is to berate and beat your people and tell them they're

00:43:11.120 not used or not good and they're not what you want and you're going to fail for sure when you do that

00:43:15.440 kind of thing and that's why people leave that's why retention and retention is the most most efficient

00:43:22.000 way to keep your armed forces capable because just think of how much you have to invest to train

00:43:26.320 people train somebody to be an f-18 pilot train somebody to drive a ship train somebody to operate

00:43:31.360 that anti-tank missile system once we get one from israel by the way which is where which is where

00:43:36.160 we ordered them and so yeah it's challenging but i'll also just quote one of our former air force

00:43:41.200 commanders who said you know our best recruiting tool are a bunch of new airplanes on the flight line

00:43:46.720 and when you have old equipment and you have no expectation of replacing that equipment in the

00:43:50.640 short term why would you join who who wants to join and be part of an organization that's obviously

00:43:57.360 in the outer realms of value in canadian society or at least in the eyes of the government of canada

00:44:03.360 in their view and so yeah it's challenging right now it is challenging right now here's the good thing

00:44:08.960 people still want to join they still want to join if we can sort out the recruiting system people

00:44:14.160 still want to serve their country people are in uniform do want to stay if they can see that there's

00:44:20.000 value in it and they do want to continue to serve their country i talked to so many of them at so

00:44:24.400 many places across canada as i travel and and and you know they're not seeing the incentive to stay

00:44:31.200 uh let me ask you about your uh other piece in national posters and i feel like this whole thing

00:44:36.560 is an ad for national post i mean post media podcast but i keep i keep mentioning great columns

00:44:41.520 in the national post rob roberts uh i think he owes me a dinner or something for all this so you had a

00:44:47.600 piece i i believe the headline was something the fact of uh that right now we've got ideology masking

00:44:53.600 as leadership and there was one part that jumped out at me where you talked about how

00:44:59.520 we couldn't even come together governments could not come together during the covet 19 pandemic and i

00:45:05.440 talked to you a bit during that time you were hired by the ford government here in ontario to manage the

00:45:13.360 logistics of the rollout um of the covet vaccine there were times when different levels of government

00:45:24.960 and you're in the middle of this and the vaccine's having a bumpy rollout but there were times when it

00:45:29.680 was not arguments over how fast the vaccine was coming or how well it was being distributed

00:45:37.520 there were purely partisan shots being taken over something that people were very concerned about

00:45:44.560 that they felt was a life and death matter and and here people are playing politics that must have

00:45:50.720 really pissed you off well it was about that time so yes it did yes it did it was a stressful enough

00:45:58.000 time frame uh a difficult enough time frame for all canadians that actually we didn't need to

00:46:02.880 have the gasoline to that fire by the partisan politics that were being played and like i have

00:46:08.000 to give credit to doug ford you know and a couple just one example i said i went to him and i saw him

00:46:13.920 every single day and i went to him one day and said you know hey i hear there are 10 million

00:46:18.240 shots of vaccine available in illinois because the americans can't get them in fast enough

00:46:22.800 and while i'm there in the office we pick up the phone we phone the head of pfizer and and premier

00:46:27.680 ford said to look i'll have a plane there to pick them up by tomorrow morning and we go oh

00:46:32.720 my no no no no no we can't do that you know the president won't let them be exported etc but he

00:46:37.360 was willing to do anything to protect the people of ontario and he had my back trying to do this

00:46:43.360 that's when i first made the comment about we missed a golden opportunity in my in my view we

00:46:48.160 missed a golden opportunity during our darkest hour to have actually come together and eliminate

00:46:53.760 it to the extent possible partisan politics we should have formed a war cabinet just like

00:46:59.040 churchill did in may of 1940 with the invasion of the nazis and the destruction of france just

00:47:04.640 as we got invaded by that horrible enemy called the covid virus we could have formed a war cabinet

00:47:11.200 of the parties brought them together a two-year agreement and said you know hey we're going to

00:47:16.080 fight this enemy and we're going to do it in a non-partisan manner for the benefit of canadians

00:47:20.720 and that would have removed 80 to 90 percent of the partisan politics that we got caught in

00:47:24.880 second thing we said we're going to follow the science and and we're going to do that so we have

00:47:29.280 a solid base on which to make our decisions and we didn't across the country i mean we had decisions

00:47:34.000 being made because of partisan politics and shots being fired so to speak that were certainly not

00:47:39.600 based on science and i think we missed a golden opportunity to show our country what we could do

00:47:44.880 if we come together as canadians throw out the partisan politics we didn't do it um in terms of

00:47:51.120 dividing the country what do you see are the biggest divisions that are being um i don't

00:47:58.400 want to say that politicians are creating the divisions but they seem to be you know like you

00:48:02.560 you stick a knife in an oyster and you wiggle it about to open it up feels like they're doing that

00:48:09.120 well it does and and i don't think there's any one single thing that i see

00:48:14.880 that is the big division you know division in our country or the big divide

00:48:19.520 sometimes it's the death of a thousand cuts more than one big sort of swipe with a sword

00:48:24.640 that causes a body to fall over because it can't take it anymore and i think that's what i see right

00:48:29.120 now and across the country i just worry you know we're we're we're putting the maritimes against the

00:48:35.200 rest of canada because of the carbon tax uh abatement and and we're putting you know quebec against

00:48:40.400 the rest of canada and alberta and saskatchewan against the rest of canada bc out there on its own

00:48:46.240 look in another way and and ontario you know the driving economic engine of our country uh sort

00:48:51.760 of looking to itself because it feels that it has to and and then within society look at what's

00:48:58.000 happened recently between since 7 october and the horrible barbarity that occurred in israel

00:49:04.000 and and what's happened with the protests across our nation and and so many canadians again if you

00:49:09.440 will that silent majority feeling that we have not responded well we have not come out on the side of

00:49:16.240 what is right and good and why are we frightening 300 000 canadians or more in canada not because

00:49:22.960 they're bombing gaza but because they're jews and why are we permitting that to occur we're pitting

00:49:28.080 every part of our society by not taking actions against each other and i think that is horrible and i do

00:49:33.600 think death by a thousand cuts is far worse and more difficult to reverse than one big sort of stab stab

00:49:41.600 wound if you will well general hillier it's been a pleasure talking to you once again as always and

00:49:46.800 i gotta say i'm enjoying the re-engaged general rick hillier i want to see more on social media and in

00:49:54.560 the pages of our our newspapers and online it's fun you know brian it is but look i'm a proud canadian

00:50:02.640 i love my country i love wearing the flag on my left shoulder for all of those years

00:50:06.960 all i ever wanted to be was a canadian soldier and i got to live my dream i was proud of canada

00:50:12.960 and in certain moments you know in 2006 2007 i'd go to the nato chief of staff meetings and when

00:50:19.040 canada spoke around that table nato listened now not so much and i was proud of all those things

00:50:25.840 that occurred proud of what we did in world war one and certainly proud of what we did in world war

00:50:30.320 two proud of so many of our leaders mckenzie king probably the greatest influencer in the history

00:50:36.160 of the world because he influenced franklin roosevelt in a way that nobody knows about

00:50:42.800 and and he influenced winston churchill perhaps to a lesser degree but the the guy who won world war

00:50:48.240 two franklin roosevelt mckenzie king influenced him to the benefit of our our nation and i was proud of

00:50:54.320 all those things i and i want to be proud going forward to the future and that's why i'm mouthing off a lot

00:50:58.640 about a lot of those things continue to mouth off uh general hillier continue and we'll chat again

00:51:04.480 soon thanks so much for the time thanks fred full comment is a post media podcast my name is brian

00:51:10.560 lily your host the episode was produced by andre pru theme music by bryce hall kevin libban is the

00:51:16.720 executive producer of full comment you can subscribe to us and please do hit the subscribe button on apple

00:51:22.080 podcasts on youtube podcasts amazon wherever you get your podcast leave us a review a recommendation a

00:51:28.320 rating and tell your friends about us thanks for listening until next time i'm brian lily

Full Comment - April 15, 2024

Gen. Rick Hillier says Canada faces ‘death by a thousand cuts’

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