Harry and Meghan are the Royal Kardashians
Episode Stats
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164.41049
Summary
We ve all been watching the circus, the soap opera that is the Royal Family for the last few decades. The last few years, though, even if you don t care for the story, it s become impossible to escape, especially with the antics of Harry and Meghan.
Transcript
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Hello, I'm Brian Lilly, guest host for the Full Comment podcast for this week.
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We've all been watching the circus, the soap opera that is the Royal Family for the last
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Last few decades, depending on how old you are.
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The last little while, though, even if you don't care for the story, it's become impossible
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to escape, especially with the antics of Harry and Meghan.
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There was the Oprah interview, the Netflix specials, the interviews with Anderson Cooper
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on 60 Minutes, the interview with Tom Bradby on ITV in the UK, and now the book Spare, where
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we got to learn new words like todger, as we figured out what frostbite on a todger meant.
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Well, before we get to our guest, who I know will have all the answers, all the insights,
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just a reminder that you can subscribe to this podcast, and please do.
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Make sure that you're subscribing, whether it's on Apple Podcasts, Google Play Podcasts,
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Spotify, Amazon, anywhere you can get your podcasts.
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Please subscribe, leave a comment, leave a like.
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But the Royal Family, how do we analyze what they're doing?
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Well, Kinsey Schofield is the woman behind the website to diefor.com.
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She's long been a fan, an analyst, a commentator on all things Royal, and Princess Diana, and
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Yeah, it's been a crazy week for royal watchers and royal commentators.
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I'm sure that spilling the tea is more appropriate, but his is nasty, so I'm going to say beans,
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Look, I grew up with immigrant parents from Glasgow, and I'd never heard the word todger
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before reading the excerpts of Harry's book where he described getting frostbite on his
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Had you ever heard of the word todger before this book leak?
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I hadn't, but that's not even the weirdest part for me.
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The weirdest part is describing using Elizabeth Arden to try to heal it, and it being the product
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that his mother put on her lips, and feeling her presence in the room as he put it on her
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You know, at least 45 people read that, heard that before it was released to the public,
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and nobody put their hand up and said, wait, I don't know how this is going to go over in
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Oh, man, I hadn't read that part, but I haven't read the book, and I'm torn on whether I will.
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Kinsey, I'd like to get your sense of what's going on with the royal family, but I'm going
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to play a bit of devil's advocate here, because the popular thing to do is to pile on Harry
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Oh, my gosh, I have been doing this for a year, and I cannot tell you how many people
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have called me racist, how many people have told me.
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The Megyn Kellys of the world, the Megyn McCains of the world, all of a sudden, they jumped
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It's been me, Brian, taking the hit for the last year.
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But I can feel some sympathy for Harry, which is odd for me.
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As I mentioned, immigrant parents from Glasgow and Scotland, where the royal family is not
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overly popular, the family has an Irish Catholic background, makes us even less inclined
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There were no tea towels with the queen, the queen's face on it, in my household growing
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But I appreciate the royal family, and being in Canada with our form of government, I
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appreciate the stability that brings with a constitutional monarchy and a parliamentary
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And so I'm a reluctant fan of the royal family that way.
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This fight, though, is making me see things in a different light, and I can feel some sympathy
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for Harry when he says he's done what he's done to protect his family.
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How are you viewing it as someone who is a royal commentator, royal watcher, also a woman
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Well, yeah, I mean, my country went to war, so we didn't have to deal with them.
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Yes, I think that protecting your family is one thing, but for over a year, I said, oh,
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my goodness, almost two years, I said, don't worry about this book.
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I really think this book is going to be a self-help book, a way for him to elevate himself,
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He runs with the likes, or previously ran with the likes of Justin Trudeau, Barack Obama,
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He could have continued to utilize those contacts, create brand recognition in spaces like mental
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health or serving vets once they're released from duty.
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He really had a great opportunity to be a true leader.
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And so for a long time, I said, don't worry about this book.
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This is going to be a man that is going to use this as a platform to build his brand and
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to get paid millions of dollars, to talk in a room full of stuffy suits.
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What you're, in fact, doing is stirring the pot, which is the exact opposite of protecting
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You know, I understand the context is different than what's been initially reported with the
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I just feel like he could have done so much, and I'm disappointed by the route that he's
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I mean, to spend three years complaining about Meghan's 18 working months as a senior member
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of the royal family, I think most people would say, get over it.
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That is a context I haven't heard it put in before.
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She spent now more time complaining about the job than the time she had the job.
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I mean, and it's just, I'm sorry that they had a difficult experience over there, but
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you've moved to America thanks to the kindness and selflessness of other people.
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Tyler Perry putting you on his private jet, flying you over to his home, allowing you to
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live there for months, providing you with security for all those months.
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You've moved into a bathroom or a house with 16 bathrooms.
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Sometimes you live in one of the richest parts of the state of California near people that
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like you, Ellen, Oprah, all of these celebrities.
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Let's talk about how great your life is in America.
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Kinsey, you said that this book went a different way than you expected.
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And I think that could have done Harry all kinds of favors if he had gone that route.
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And in my view, this book takes tell-all to the next level.
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Harry complains a lot about the Daily Mail and the tabloid press in the UK.
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This, the details that I've seen are the type of details I would expect if a writer from
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the Daily Mail was asked, slap together a quick bio of Harry, we need something quick
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Did the level of detail, especially on the personal side, on sometimes the gross side,
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Well, first of all, he's, you know, as you know, he's suing the Daily Mail.
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So that's funny that you would use that as a referral, but specifically Thomas Markle
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She grew up, she spent a lot of her youth with Thomas Markle, actually, and you don't
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really see that throughout the Netflix documentary.
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But Harry and Meghan criticized Thomas for monetizing his relationship with his daughter
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And I have a hard time hearing that when Harry is monetizing his relationship with the royal
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family, as well as Meghan monetizing her relationship with the royal family.
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And I know people make comparisons to Princess Diana and her book with Andrew Morton, Diana,
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As you'll remember at the time, that was written in secret.
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We had no idea Diana was involved in the, no idea Diana was involved in that book until
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after her death when Andrew Morton finally admitted to it.
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And I think that the objectives were different there.
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And he's continuing down this destructive path.
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You said in a recent television interview that you feel Harry in particular, and we'll talk
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I don't want to make this all about H&M, but you said you feel that Harry is making the
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Well, I mean, if you'll remember, it seems like he's got her playbook in front of him.
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It seems like he is just checking off a list of things that she executed.
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When it comes to the Oprah interview, you could throw that back to Martin Bashir.
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When it comes to this book, you could compare that to Andrew Morton.
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And I just think he's checking off this list of things going, well, mommy did it.
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But the reality is at the time of Diana's death, she was not a very popular character.
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She was the lowest she had been when it came to the YouGov scores, those types of things.
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At the time of her death, she was chasing after a man who had a drug problem.
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I don't know if you remember that humiliating press conference that that very famous L.A.-based
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attorney, Gloria Allred, did with Dodie's fiancee at the time crying, saying that Diana had
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And she ironically had a ring that looked just like Diana's famous engagement ring from Prince
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But, you know, she was not the loved character that she is today.
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Diana became this martyr and became this angelic figure to us upon her last breath.
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And I do feel like Harry and Meghan look at Diana and define her by this angelic role that
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And Diana was a great human who was sincere in her hurt and sincere in her compassion.
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And because I felt like she felt like she lacked love in her life, she gave her all to strangers
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But the reality is she died trying to make Hasnick Khan jealous by publicly dating Dodie
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And I think that Harry needs to really look into her history and understand that the decisions
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she made at the time were not necessarily popular.
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And unfortunately, one of those consequences towards the end of her life was her death.
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The claim is often made that it's Harry and Meghan that are starting this fight with the royal family.
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That if they were just quiet, this would go away.
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So let me flip that around and say, whether it's the media in the UK or the media around
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the world, they can't get enough of Harry and Meghan.
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And the royal family continues to leak stories about them.
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I don't believe for a second that that's just a claim made by Harry and Meghan have been in
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If Harry and Meghan stop tomorrow, do you actually think that there would stop being stories on
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them, often stories that are facilitated by the institution, as they always called it in
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Well, first I'd say, if you're realistic about the situation, the palace continues to protect
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Because if they wanted to hurt Harry and Meghan, they would release the bully report that they've
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had several third parties come in and investigate Meghan's behavior towards staff.
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And the palace decided they wanted no more drama so that they locked those reports up because
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They don't like the tit for tat that he said, she said that happens when you respond or when
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you, I mean, that's the never complain, never explain definition right there.
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There are obviously, you know, I've had several people ask me straight forward this week, do palace
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Because I broke the story almost a year ago that Harry wanted to happen.
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Harry and Meghan wanted to work half in, half out.
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But I can honestly say no one's come to me and asked me to leak something.
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I really only know of a few people that I could consider sources.
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And one is somebody that works in the vicinity and hears things that, but it's gossip on top
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There's no way that William is telling this person, I want you to go leak a story about
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So, so I, while I understand what you're saying, and while I'm sure that there have
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been leaks, I don't really know what the reality is that they're coming fast and furious right
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I mean, there's no relationship between Harry and the Royal family.
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So there's nothing to leak at this point in time, but the idea that Camilla was leaking
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stories, which he, he really, he, he points the finger at a lot.
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I know that Camilla leaked stories to Diana in the night about Diana in the nineties.
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There was actually a reporter that came out and admitted that she gave him a few stories
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And then all of a sudden he swiftly changed his tune and said, Oh, I don't know what you're
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Um, so I know that that happened, but after Diana's death, Camilla was vilified.
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She hated the negative press coverage and feared it immensely.
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And so, um, Prince Charles had somebody come in named Mark Boland who did a complete rebrand
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I mean, there are stories about people throwing bread at Camilla in a grocery store.
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Charles denies that that ever happened, but they've lived long enough that, you know,
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maybe there is some truth to it, but Charles brought in a man named Mark Boland who wanted
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And I do believe that they probably shared some negative stories about Prince Harry as
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I really don't know if, if Charles and Camilla are sitting around sharing negative stories
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I would hope that we would be beyond something like that.
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Um, but I don't know at this point in time, there's no relationship there.
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So stories right now are not coming out about Harry and Meghan because the palace are leaking
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If Harry and Meghan want to contact any member of the royal family today, they have to go
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Uh, speaking with Kinsey Schofield, we're going to take a quick break, come back with
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more, including, uh, Kinsey, one thing that I want to, to get into is could this have
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There's an old saying in politics, keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
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And a lot of work goes into keeping enemies inside the tent and politics.
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So when we come back, I want to ask you about that.
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Kinsey, we were talking previously about all the fights.
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We were talking about the, how Prince Harry is revealed so much, how you mentioned that
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he can't even speak to his family unless he goes through a law firm.
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You know, in politics, it's better to keep somebody who's upset, who's part of your team,
00:19:04.880
but is upset with you inside the tent rather than have them outside the tent shooting inwards.
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Um, I do think that everybody's disappointed by this situation because no matter what,
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Um, I, and, uh, and they could have done a lot for the Royal family, but there is a stubbornness
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There is a temper within the men of the Windsor household and, you know, there's this fight
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that Harry describes within the book where Willie shoves him down, breaks his necklace,
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and then Harry proceeds to break a dog bowl when he falls on top of it.
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Um, that to me sounds like a man that believes what he's saying and that, that's a passionate
00:19:59.740
And the fight was about employees of Kensington palace going the proper HR route, reporting
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something to a manager who reported something to a senior manager.
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This inevitably trinkles up to Prince William and William approached Harry at his home and
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said, we have got to talk about the way that Meghan is behaving.
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Now, Harry rejects William's claim, says it's the employees that are the problem.
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But then in Harry's book, he goes on to describe working in their offices and having staff members
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I know you haven't worked the drive-thru at McDonald's, but you're not supposed to cry
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regularly at your desk if you are going to work every day.
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Of course, it has been in some of the newsrooms I've worked in, but that's another story.
00:21:06.620
But yeah, so the idea that Harry and William got into this nasty fight, to me, it's William
00:21:18.260
And Harry's the one that's not going to give an inch, that doesn't say, okay, well, maybe
00:21:24.140
we'll hire an assistant that Meghan communicates that she's comfortable with, and then that
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assistant communicates everything to everybody else.
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And I firmly believe that the problem was the way that Meghan communicated.
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It has everything to do with the fact that Meghan is a self-made American woman who probably
00:21:54.060
So yes, you are probably going to get an email at 2 a.m. or 5 a.m. because we wake up and
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think about something and we shoot that email over.
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I think that it's just a culture clash at the end of the day.
00:22:15.280
If the royal family was going to go down, it would have been that love triangle, Charles,
00:22:22.520
The difference between this situation and that is that, I mean, I think the majority of the
00:22:27.620
people, after all is said and done, are siding with the royal family because they can't believe
00:22:35.360
I mean, I'm looking at this thinking about Joey Buttafuoco.
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It's sending me back into the 80s and the 90s with all of this content that Harry's sharing
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It does give you those flashes of old school tabloids that are so outrageous.
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When you see the headlines at the grocery store in the aisle, they're so outrageous that you
00:23:04.980
So I think that this is something that they can overcome.
00:23:09.580
The King Charles, his poll numbers went up immensely upon the death of Queen Elizabeth.
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People are super excited for Prince William to inevitably become king one day.
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So I think that while Harry might have hurt the brand a little bit, he doesn't care.
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His objective is to build a brand in America where the stuff he shared will only elevate
00:23:39.800
Look at what the Kardashians have done for themselves with the sex tape.
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And I said off the top, we're trying to figure out what the endgame is for Meghan and Harry.
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Is their goal to become just like the Kardashians, famous for being famous?
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I don't know what you do after some of this, because I was really under the impression that
00:24:12.920
She was doing these virtual tours with Kamala Harris, Hillary Clinton, Stacey Abrams, which are
00:24:19.760
all high-profile Democrats here in the United States, female Democratic leaders.
00:24:24.920
I was under the impression that Meghan wanted to pursue politics.
00:24:29.120
But I don't know how you pursue politics with a husband that will talk so openly about, you
00:24:34.120
know, cocaine use and, you know, smoking dope outside of Tyler Perry's house while his baby and his
00:24:43.060
I don't think that's a positive reflection on him or his family.
00:24:47.200
And I don't know if Americans would be excited to have that in the White House.
00:24:53.520
I'd say looking at what's been released over the last month or two based on the Netflix
00:24:59.460
docuseries and the autobiography, how do you not pursue anything but entertainment?
00:25:06.440
I think you are limiting yourself to podcasts and producing content for Netflix.
00:25:10.360
I don't really think you can be taken seriously as a thought leader when not only the content
00:25:16.380
of the book, but he looks so vindictive and angry throughout the series of interviews he's
00:25:25.540
He's done many of the things that you talk about and it's been reported and he keeps getting
00:25:39.000
So in terms of popularity, the UK, very negative impressions of both Meghan and Harry.
00:25:51.160
69% have a very negative impression of Prince Harry.
00:26:02.220
For Meghan, it's 73% very negative, 14% fairly negative, and just 8% have any kind of positive
00:26:11.820
What's your sense of Meghan and Harry in the United States?
00:26:16.680
I know you said that it's starting great on people, but given the celebrity culture, does
00:26:27.460
Well, I do know that when I worked with a polling company not too long ago to put just a comparison
00:26:37.820
together of William and Catherine and Meghan and Harry, and Kate was, I'd say, knocked it
00:26:46.680
out of the park for popularity here in the States.
00:26:49.000
So if we're just comparing the former royals, Harry and Meghan, to the current royals, I
00:26:54.460
do think that statistically, the royal family dominates over Harry and Meghan.
00:27:02.040
But Harry and Meghan, you know, they were smart.
00:27:05.320
They came over here and immediately started that victim narrative that the United States
00:27:11.920
The Jessie Smollett, Amber Heard, you know, woe is me.
00:27:15.500
I think that that was a key strategy that Harry and Meghan used as quickly as they, you know,
00:27:24.660
And there are people in America that are idiots and will gladly follow that, you know.
00:27:31.780
I think most people look at it and go, really, you live a life of privilege, Meghan.
00:27:38.080
I highly doubt that half of these things went on that you're saying.
00:27:42.660
I mean, they told us during the Oprah Winfrey interview that their child was denied security,
00:27:49.000
that their child was denied his rightful title because there was, you know, any percent of
00:28:00.760
Harry turns around and tells ITV, we never said they were racist.
00:28:04.220
OK, well, there's another lie because I just gave you the example.
00:28:06.860
But then he goes on to Anderson Cooper the same night, several hours later, and tells Anderson
00:28:13.320
Cooper that his family didn't get along with Meghan Markle because of stereotypes.
00:28:22.340
So obviously they're playing our countries against each other because of the narrative.
00:28:26.640
They know that the UK is offended when they say that there's racism there, so that they're
00:28:32.780
But he forgets that the Internet exists and comes over to America and says, yeah, my family's
00:28:38.300
They're playing our countries against each other.
00:28:40.260
They're playing our news sources against each other.
00:28:44.740
Americans are afraid to criticize Harry and Meghan.
00:28:47.160
American media organizations are afraid to criticize Harry and Meghan because you're told
00:28:51.240
you're racist if you do that, because the UK is racist for criticizing them.
00:28:59.940
And just before I get on to the next point, Newsweek did have a poll out at the beginning
00:29:06.740
of December around the time the Netflix special dropped.
00:29:10.420
And Meghan was liked by 43% of Americans, disliked by 20%, meaning the other remaining, what,
00:29:21.260
A little bit less popular than Kate, who's liked by 52%.
00:29:25.140
But, you know, 40% approval rating is not horrible.
00:29:31.120
I'll just correct you right there really quickly, though.
00:29:33.700
Newsweek is one of the magazines that worked with Harry and Meghan, were very positive about
00:29:39.480
Harry and Meghan, and over the last few weeks have started to question Harry and Meghan.
00:29:44.980
Jack Royson, I believe, is the journalist over there who just ate everything up that they
00:29:51.140
He reported some of those statistics that were not true about Meghan being bullied online,
00:29:57.240
that Twitter actually shut down and said, these statistics are not true.
00:30:01.980
And he's actually come around over the last few weeks, I'd say the last two weeks, and
00:30:07.020
started pointing out some of the inconsistencies within Harry and Meghan's stories, and has
00:30:13.180
said, you guys have got to change the narrative.
00:30:16.320
And you've got to look forward, because people are sick about hearing about the same old,
00:30:22.380
So Variety, Newsweek, CNN, The Today Show, these are some of the outlets that have previously
00:30:28.820
been very glowing of the Sussexes here in the States that are actually starting to question
00:30:35.040
If, and I understand that, but, and I know you've pointed out that Jimmy Kimmel is even
00:30:41.020
making fun of him in skits, but if your goal is Kardashian-like celebrity, then that doesn't
00:30:47.700
really matter, because, well, it's more publicity.
00:30:51.700
I mean, Kim Kardashian's sex tape has never hurt her.
00:30:55.420
Some of the things that have happened to that family do not hurt them.
00:31:01.200
Yeah, I mean, if that is their endgame, then yes, they're on a good track, right?
00:31:08.440
In terms of playing the media against each other, and as you pointed out, the internet,
00:31:14.200
yeah, that thing goes across the ocean, and you can see that they're saying one thing to
00:31:19.080
Tom Bradby, and one thing to Anderson Cooper, if you want.
00:31:22.000
It's kind of like in Canada, you know, we've got 25% of the country is French.
00:31:27.360
Politicians used to try and say one thing in English, one thing in French.
00:31:33.220
Maybe not well, but there's also Google Translate now, and you can find these things out.
00:31:39.720
Harry has been incredibly, and Meghan, have been incredibly inconsistent in their comments,
00:31:46.740
and as you point out, playing one issue in the States versus another issue in the UK.
00:31:54.980
Do you think that he's really trying to push the narrative that the royal family is racist in America,
00:32:02.360
because that will get him sympathy in the US that he wouldn't get in the UK?
00:32:09.440
I think that being victims has become a very lucrative brand for the Sussexes.
00:32:15.920
And, you know, when they originally left the royal family, ultimately, Americans wanted to protect them.
00:32:23.320
We were very protective of them, and we thought, no, come over here, we'll take care of you,
00:32:26.940
because we were so horrified by the death of his mother and because we felt like we grew up with him
00:32:32.060
and wanted to protect him and wanted to take care of him because we saw such a huge loss for him.
00:32:38.700
So I do think that they play each other when it comes to, or they play the press when it comes to racism.
00:32:54.840
It's friends like Gayle King that goes on CBS and says, we have receipts.
00:33:00.560
They've made some high-profile friendships and contacts that do elevate them and elevate their brand.
00:33:11.040
They've shown us no proof of the alleged royal racist that they now deny exists.
00:33:16.300
Just, if you have receipts, if you have any proof of it whatsoever, show us and we will defend you greatly.
00:33:23.520
But at this point in time, it just feels like it's trash for cash.
00:33:27.660
And your popularity soars and interest in you soars when there's another headline like this.
00:33:32.860
Harry specifically says to Anderson Cooper, at some point, silence is betrayal.
00:33:38.260
Well, if there's really not a racist within the royal family, then why did you spend two years not fighting that narrative?
00:33:48.180
In one of the interviews, he said, it wasn't me that said that we're racist.
00:33:55.660
I mean, to say, and tell me if I'm wrong, but to tell us that a family member questioned your child's skin color, because of that child's skin color, you would not receive the title that is inherited, historically inherited, which, by the way, that was not true.
00:34:15.920
The only reason that William's children were princes and princesses was because the queen stepped in and did that specifically because William was the heir.
00:34:27.540
Harry was not, his children were not automatically going to be princes and princesses until King Charles became king and ascended to the throne.
00:34:37.060
And then that's actually a choice now that Charles is going to make based on Harry and Meghan's activity and their actions.
00:34:46.420
Your child is not going to be a prince because he's black.
00:34:49.940
Your child is not going to get security because he's black.
00:34:53.300
Also, we're worried about how black he's going to be.
00:35:01.740
Now, let me ask you about something that Harry raised several times in the Netflix documentary, that because of his wife's race and because of the composition of the Commonwealth,
00:35:13.860
that they, the royal family lost out on an opportunity to work with him and with Meghan to showcase her and say,
00:35:26.600
look, we've got somebody in the family who is more representative of the people that make up the Commonwealth.
00:35:37.960
Or did Harry and Meghan poison that possibility with their actions?
00:35:43.540
I do think that they poison that possibility with their actions.
00:35:47.400
You know, we are, I know you, you, it sounds like you work in a newsroom.
00:35:52.320
You know, how great are we when we work together?
00:35:55.220
How great is it when there is good chemistry and there is teamwork and no one thinks that they are the star of the show,
00:36:01.480
but everyone is just trying to contribute as much as they can.
00:36:06.480
And I just think that that's where the disconnect was, that they weren't willing to be team players,
00:36:11.940
that they had their own agendas and that they, I don't know, they, they, they just seem to have their own agendas and want,
00:36:20.640
And when they didn't get it, they became difficult and they be, and you know, they, there's, it's not one sided.
00:36:26.140
Harry and Meghan released, Harry and Meghan released stories too.
00:36:32.060
Knowing that Meghan sent a wreath during Prince Philip's funeral.
00:36:37.340
Even the, what the card said inside the card that hadn't, didn't even look open when it was on the screen.
00:36:43.120
Somebody released that Harry, that Harry and Meghan sent a wreath that Meghan specifically sent this wreath during Prince Philip's funeral.
00:36:50.020
You know, there are arguments that this, the, the Megxit, which they claim was leaked by the palace.
00:36:58.600
Harry specifically says it was leaked by the palace.
00:37:01.300
There are arguments that that story was actually leaked by Meghan, that Harry and Meghan were planning on leaving the company or the country.
00:37:13.580
Yeah, the, the institution, the company, the country, that, that Meghan actually had her friends leak that story to Dan Wooten, who was working at the sun at the time and who actually is the one that, that broke that story.
00:37:26.980
There are rumors that Meghan's friends leaked that to Dan because Meghan wanted to scare the royal family into giving them everything they wanted.
00:37:39.000
Harry and Meghan are, are, were playing games behind the scenes too.
00:37:43.580
It's going to be a fascinating next little while.
00:37:48.060
Cause I don't think this story is going to stop Kinsey.
00:37:50.160
I think it's going to continue and we will continue to watch the headlines, continue to watch you and, and lap it all up while saying, we just want them to stop.
00:38:10.540
My name is Brian Lilly guest host for this week.
00:38:13.200
This episode was produced by Andre Proulx with theme music by Bryce Hall.
00:38:20.060
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00:38:26.020
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00:38:28.700
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00:38:33.360
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