Full Comment - February 17, 2025


Here in Washington, the Trump vs. Canada reality isn’t what we think


Episode Stats

Length

44 minutes

Words per Minute

178.51218

Word Count

7,890

Sentence Count

433

Misogynist Sentences

1

Hate Speech Sentences

37


Summary

In the absence of federal leadership, 13 Canadian Premiers went to Washington, D.C. to make their case to the US Congress about the need for Canada to be recognized as the 51st state. They spoke to politicians, business leaders, and media personalities.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Bank more encores when you switch to a Scotiabank banking package.
00:00:07.480 Learn more at scotiabank.com slash banking packages.
00:00:10.860 Conditions apply.
00:00:12.660 Scotiabank. You're richer than you think.
00:00:18.200 It wasn't quite Mr. Smith goes to Washington,
00:00:21.840 but there he had 13 Canadian premiers
00:00:24.120 and an assortment of business leaders
00:00:26.280 in the American capital this past week to make Canada's case.
00:00:30.460 Hello and welcome to the Full Comment Podcast.
00:00:32.640 I'm Brian Lilly, your host.
00:00:34.160 And this week, something a little different.
00:00:37.680 I just spent much of last week in Washington myself,
00:00:41.580 following the premiers, speaking to several of them,
00:00:44.340 and talking with business leaders and even American politicians
00:00:47.200 and media personalities about the cross-border relationship,
00:00:51.560 the tariffs, the 51st state.
00:00:54.740 I'm going to take you along the trip and let you hear what I heard,
00:00:58.040 the speeches I attended,
00:00:59.460 my discussions with politicians and business leaders,
00:01:02.820 even a 20-minute-long interview with Donald Trump's former chief strategist,
00:01:07.240 Steve Bannon,
00:01:08.120 on why he thinks Trump isn't bluffing about either making Canada the 51st state
00:01:13.660 or somehow bringing Canada closer to the American orbit.
00:01:17.720 In the absence of federal leadership,
00:01:20.760 provincial premiers went to the American capital one by one,
00:01:24.300 seeking audiences and seeking to make Canada's case.
00:01:28.400 In my conversations with U.S. lawmakers,
00:01:30.920 I've also heard serious concerns about China,
00:01:34.400 about how China is ripping off American workers by flooding markets
00:01:39.420 and hijacking global supply chains.
00:01:43.140 America has had enough,
00:01:45.100 American workers have had enough,
00:01:47.620 and I've had enough.
00:01:49.340 In response,
00:01:50.320 U.S. lawmakers are leading the most ambitious economic realignment
00:01:54.840 in the past 100 years.
00:01:57.920 They're decoupling from China and its global proxies.
00:02:02.140 Doing so will be no easy task.
00:02:05.180 It will require long-term thinking.
00:02:08.400 It will require dedication.
00:02:10.520 And most of all,
00:02:11.600 it will require friends and allies like Canada and Ontario.
00:02:16.880 And I can tell you,
00:02:17.920 Canada's here to help.
00:02:19.340 Ontario Premier Doug Ford spoke to about 150 people
00:02:22.700 at an event put on by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce,
00:02:25.340 perhaps the biggest business lobby group in the world.
00:02:28.740 And the message that Ford was sharing was interesting.
00:02:31.960 The problem is China, not Canada.
00:02:34.560 We need to block China from having a foothold in strategic industries
00:02:38.080 like energy and critical minerals.
00:02:41.080 Considering that pretty much everything Trump is doing is in response to
00:02:44.660 or as a way to counter China,
00:02:46.920 that message,
00:02:47.920 and Ford's other message of creating Fortress AMCAN,
00:02:51.100 a Canadian-American fortress,
00:02:53.600 well, that would be music to the ears of those
00:02:55.780 that might be listening in the Trump administration.
00:02:58.740 The problem with this event
00:03:00.160 was that it took place on the morning of Tuesday,
00:03:04.000 February 11th,
00:03:04.960 shortly after Ford arrived,
00:03:06.620 and most of the people in attendance were Canadians.
00:03:09.900 About one-third of the audience was American,
00:03:12.620 but they were mostly already on Canada's side.
00:03:15.800 Now, does that mean that the event wasn't worthwhile?
00:03:19.940 Not really.
00:03:20.480 We just had a gentleman at the podium saying that he had a very good message.
00:03:25.740 He's an American,
00:03:27.000 but there's only about a third of the room were Americans.
00:03:29.760 How do you get in front of more Americans on the trip,
00:03:32.540 make sure the right people hear the message
00:03:34.280 rather than preaching to the choir?
00:03:36.000 Well, great question, Brian.
00:03:37.580 We're going to an event tonight.
00:03:39.000 We'll be networking with senators at those events as well,
00:03:43.120 on Congress, men and women.
00:03:45.440 And we have separate meetings.
00:03:47.540 I know my colleagues, all the premiers are down here as well,
00:03:51.600 that have been setting up a meeting.
00:03:54.160 And make no mistake about it,
00:03:55.600 you know, the White House knows we're down here.
00:03:59.300 All elected officials know we're down here.
00:04:01.940 The American people know we're down here.
00:04:04.100 Because we care.
00:04:05.540 We care about the steel.
00:04:07.360 We care about the Kuzma deal,
00:04:09.800 or USMCA, or whatever you want to call it.
00:04:12.340 And just getting our message
00:04:13.920 that we're stronger together,
00:04:15.740 no matter if it's our energy,
00:04:17.940 or our manufacturing,
00:04:19.540 or the aluminum steel,
00:04:20.980 how important aluminum steel
00:04:23.220 plays in a role down here.
00:04:26.140 So we're getting the message out,
00:04:27.880 and we're happy to be down here.
00:04:29.480 In fact, Eric Miller, an American
00:04:31.240 who has run a consulting firm
00:04:33.040 that operates in Ottawa and Washington
00:04:35.320 for the last 25 years,
00:04:37.440 said that it was actually incumbent
00:04:38.860 on Ford and other Canadian politicians
00:04:41.900 to make the trip.
00:04:43.540 No, I think certainly we will look for opportunities,
00:04:47.920 is what he is thinking.
00:04:49.100 If there are ways that tariffs can be reduced,
00:04:51.860 if you can find a way to move something to 10% from 25%,
00:04:55.100 to have exemptions on things
00:04:57.420 that are just pure additions
00:04:59.020 to the cost of goods and services,
00:05:01.660 he will certainly look for that.
00:05:03.240 And so it's important that political leaders
00:05:05.280 stand up and say that Canadians
00:05:07.120 are not happy with this,
00:05:08.760 and that they need to recognize
00:05:11.260 in the United States
00:05:12.280 the criticality of the Canadian contribution
00:05:16.600 to American prosperity.
00:05:18.380 So after this event,
00:05:20.000 Ford spent the rest of the day
00:05:21.500 talking to American politicians,
00:05:23.760 lawmakers as they call them in the United States,
00:05:26.620 a series of meetings that he and his team
00:05:28.340 had set up previously.
00:05:29.840 People like Lisa McClain.
00:05:31.420 She represents Michigan's 9th District
00:05:33.860 in the House of Representatives.
00:05:35.700 This is an area that covers the areas around Detroit,
00:05:40.220 includes a lot of auto workers, parts companies.
00:05:42.340 She's also chair of the House Republican Caucus.
00:05:45.480 Then Ford met with North Dakota Senator Kevin Kramer,
00:05:48.340 a key ally of President Trump.
00:05:50.560 In fact, Kramer hosted a reception for Ford
00:05:52.840 that attracted Canadian and American leaders alike.
00:05:56.560 Bizarrely, back home in Ontario,
00:05:58.620 where Ford is in the middle of a provincial election,
00:06:01.420 he was attacked by Ontario's Liberal leader,
00:06:03.400 Bonnie Crombie,
00:06:04.480 for meeting with people who support tariffs.
00:06:07.300 I mean, isn't that the whole point of this trip?
00:06:09.220 You need to talk to people who disagree with you
00:06:11.860 if you want to change their minds.
00:06:14.640 No sense talking to people who already hate Trump,
00:06:17.540 think that what he's doing is wrong.
00:06:18.940 You need to talk to people
00:06:20.100 who were on board with the American president
00:06:22.440 and change their way of thinking.
00:06:25.020 Now, as much as the premiers were there
00:06:27.320 on a united mission,
00:06:28.920 they also took on their own individual agendas.
00:06:32.760 Ford with his meetings on Tuesday,
00:06:34.820 Saskatchewan Scott Moe with a series of meetings
00:06:37.580 with members of the House and Senate
00:06:39.320 with an interest in energy and agriculture.
00:06:42.500 Saskatchewan is a province
00:06:43.440 that has been spending time in Washington
00:06:45.800 for over 15 years now.
00:06:47.740 I've been down here two to three times a year
00:06:50.880 for the last six, seven years.
00:06:53.260 And certainly, you know,
00:06:54.440 this mission with all of the premiers here
00:06:56.240 is the first time I've seen that.
00:06:57.740 We've seen five premiers,
00:06:59.760 I think was the largest amount,
00:07:00.880 a few years ago at the conclusion of USMCA.
00:07:02.860 So I think largely when you look,
00:07:05.080 you know, more globally at the mission
00:07:07.560 on behalf of Canadians collectively,
00:07:10.920 very much the engagement with policymakers
00:07:13.460 here in the US was very, very helpful
00:07:15.280 for, you know, the discussion that's going to go on
00:07:17.460 for, you know, a number of weeks
00:07:18.680 and maybe a few months now.
00:07:19.920 We come at these meetings with, you know,
00:07:22.460 a very different background
00:07:23.560 with respect to the industries
00:07:24.780 that we're engaging on
00:07:26.220 and the individual states
00:07:27.580 and representative and policymakers
00:07:29.140 that we may want to engage on.
00:07:30.680 So a number of premiers were down early summer,
00:07:32.960 maybe staying a day later
00:07:34.000 to engage in areas
00:07:35.100 that are specifically interest their province.
00:07:37.160 And then we had the one day
00:07:38.060 to engage collectively as Canadian premiers
00:07:41.260 with a number of folks as well.
00:07:43.220 You know, for instance,
00:07:44.360 you know, something that's very high
00:07:45.820 in the priority of Saskatchewan's economic growth
00:07:49.400 and our opportunity is, you know,
00:07:51.000 mining, energy and agriculture.
00:07:52.920 So we engaged with a number of folks
00:07:54.820 throughout the Midwest
00:07:55.660 that are, you know,
00:07:58.320 very much accessing Saskatchewan potash.
00:08:00.680 to grow their crops
00:08:01.800 and the ag producers
00:08:02.920 throughout the Corn Belt.
00:08:03.840 Chuck Grassley was an individual
00:08:05.140 that we had a, you know,
00:08:06.240 a very good sit down
00:08:07.080 and came to many points of agreement.
00:08:08.800 And we'll find our way, you know,
00:08:10.940 through this discussion over the next while.
00:08:13.540 He's a pretty big Republican, Grassley.
00:08:15.280 Grassley is very much a large Republican,
00:08:17.520 you know, representing Iowa
00:08:18.720 and a, you know, a strong voice.
00:08:20.820 Probably, I don't think probably,
00:08:22.580 I think he's the longest serving senator
00:08:24.220 or longest serving elected representative
00:08:27.700 in the place
00:08:28.660 and just a great guy to meet with
00:08:31.460 and a great representative
00:08:32.480 of his district and his state
00:08:33.960 and the U.S.
00:08:35.340 The Energy Committee,
00:08:36.500 we had met with a number of folks
00:08:37.940 on the Energy Committee,
00:08:40.960 Bob Lara,
00:08:41.620 as well as a number of other folks,
00:08:43.440 to, you know,
00:08:44.680 really discuss how we need to work together
00:08:48.080 to ensure that we're creating
00:08:49.340 this North American energy secure continent,
00:08:52.420 that continental energy security
00:08:54.080 that we desire
00:08:55.540 and how, you know,
00:08:56.520 the talk of tariffs
00:08:57.380 and barriers at the 49th parallel
00:09:00.140 or barriers to the industry in general
00:09:02.660 and the production of that energy
00:09:04.300 really aren't beneficial
00:09:05.240 for us achieving, you know,
00:09:07.120 that continental energy security.
00:09:08.620 One of the business leaders on this trip,
00:09:10.460 Tim Gitzel,
00:09:11.460 CEO of Cameco,
00:09:13.260 a major player in the nuclear industry,
00:09:15.540 an industry that could soon see a renaissance.
00:09:18.420 Saskatchewan, for those who don't know,
00:09:19.860 holds about 20% of the world's uranium deposits.
00:09:23.660 That's on top of their oil and gas industry
00:09:25.700 that, while not as big as Alberta's,
00:09:27.840 is significant enough.
00:09:29.540 Now, let me hammer home this point again.
00:09:32.160 The premiers individually held meetings
00:09:34.520 with important people,
00:09:35.540 aside from the group meetings.
00:09:37.240 Alberta premiers Daniel Smith
00:09:38.960 and Saskatchewan Scott Moe
00:09:40.500 both spoke with Interior Secretary Doug Burgum.
00:09:44.340 In his old job,
00:09:45.300 Burgum was the governor of North Dakota,
00:09:47.940 a state that shares the border
00:09:49.300 with both Saskatchewan and Manitoba,
00:09:51.660 also a big player in the oil and gas industry.
00:09:54.700 These are people that Burgum knew already.
00:09:57.240 It's an industry that he's going to oversee
00:09:59.080 in his new job,
00:10:00.220 and these are people
00:10:01.180 that have a relationship with him already.
00:10:03.760 Speaking by phone,
00:10:04.820 as she was trying to leave Washington,
00:10:06.560 but delayed by weather on Thursday,
00:10:08.800 Danielle Smith said that the American system,
00:10:11.460 part of the problem is,
00:10:12.780 it's incredibly different
00:10:14.060 in terms of trying to figure out
00:10:15.440 who to speak to.
00:10:16.280 I think the approach we have to take
00:10:18.140 is have as many relationships as possible
00:10:20.320 because we're seeing a president
00:10:22.280 who does have very clear views
00:10:24.660 and a worldview that he wants to put in place,
00:10:27.800 but he's open to being persuaded by an argument.
00:10:30.640 And so I think it is up to us
00:10:32.200 to identify those who are influencers on him,
00:10:35.320 make our best arguments,
00:10:36.260 and see if we can get to the outcome that we want,
00:10:39.720 which is a terror-free relationship
00:10:41.400 between Canada and the U.S.
00:10:42.760 So I think that's maybe part of the reason
00:10:44.600 that the systems are so different
00:10:46.760 and the approaches are so different.
00:10:48.260 It's just the nature of how they've split up
00:10:51.100 the centers of power
00:10:53.680 and the way their system of government operates.
00:10:57.120 In terms of the White House meeting,
00:10:58.960 what was the message that you heard back?
00:11:01.400 I know you delivered
00:11:02.660 and the other premiers delivered
00:11:04.440 on Canada's point,
00:11:06.680 but what did you hear back from the White House?
00:11:10.140 Well, we did hear from a couple of the senior officials
00:11:14.460 who are advisors to the president.
00:11:16.700 I mean, I think what I was encouraged by
00:11:18.780 is that the president was deep into discussions
00:11:22.420 on trying to resolve the Ukraine-Russia war
00:11:26.200 and they still made time to meet with the premiers.
00:11:30.040 And if it had been a different day,
00:11:31.240 we might have even been able
00:11:32.380 to meet with the president himself.
00:11:34.380 And so they wanted to convey
00:11:36.340 that it was important for us to be there.
00:11:38.640 We were glad that we were there.
00:11:40.960 I think they understand that the premiers
00:11:43.360 have authority over resource decision-making
00:11:47.160 and permitting for the most part
00:11:49.640 in their jurisdictions,
00:11:50.440 which is important
00:11:51.220 because we've got a strong story to tell
00:11:53.140 on energy resources,
00:11:54.620 whether it's oil and gas
00:11:56.180 or critical minerals or electricity
00:11:58.500 or any of those other critical components
00:12:01.360 that they need.
00:12:02.040 So that we wanted to convey.
00:12:04.800 We were trying to also get information
00:12:06.640 about what the issues are.
00:12:09.420 What are the trade irritants
00:12:11.580 that the president has?
00:12:13.080 And unfortunately,
00:12:14.000 we weren't able to get any more insight
00:12:16.240 than what we hear publicly.
00:12:17.640 Clearly, he's concerned
00:12:18.620 about the hollowing out
00:12:20.040 of his manufacturing base.
00:12:21.420 He's clearly very clear
00:12:23.200 that he clearly wants to maintain capacity
00:12:26.580 to develop a steel industry
00:12:29.580 and an aluminum industry
00:12:31.140 as critical components
00:12:32.680 to supporting national defense aspirations.
00:12:35.180 And we have to figure out
00:12:37.180 how we can put forward our argument
00:12:40.440 that we want to be partners
00:12:43.020 in North American energy security,
00:12:45.260 North American national security,
00:12:47.340 North American food security,
00:12:49.380 North American manufacturing prowess
00:12:51.840 and security.
00:12:52.920 And I think we've had a breakthrough
00:12:54.140 on some of those fronts,
00:12:56.180 but not all of them.
00:12:57.360 But I think that there's
00:12:58.240 a very similar argument.
00:12:59.580 Eventually, the premiers were able
00:13:01.440 to get a meeting with the White House.
00:13:03.280 Now, critics of the premiers
00:13:04.580 have dismissed this meeting
00:13:05.860 as the equivalent of,
00:13:07.880 well, chatting with the kitchen intern.
00:13:10.560 Despite the classist element
00:13:12.320 of dismissing the kitchen staff,
00:13:14.000 which no one should ever do,
00:13:15.720 as they say,
00:13:16.320 the army runs on beans and bullets.
00:13:18.020 No food means no army.
00:13:20.160 But I digress.
00:13:21.420 The main man that the premier met with
00:13:23.560 was James Blair,
00:13:24.540 the deputy chief of staff
00:13:25.800 in the White House,
00:13:26.820 who's in charge of policy
00:13:28.240 and legislative affairs.
00:13:30.220 Also joining the meeting
00:13:31.480 with Sergio Gore,
00:13:32.860 the man in charge
00:13:33.540 of White House personnel.
00:13:35.300 Now, if you don't understand
00:13:36.720 Trump world,
00:13:37.900 then you would dismiss
00:13:39.180 these two people
00:13:40.060 as premiers meeting
00:13:41.680 with nobodies.
00:13:42.940 If you understand Trump's orbit,
00:13:45.300 then this was a very good meeting.
00:13:47.280 We had a very constructive conversation.
00:13:49.880 We appreciate the Trump administration
00:13:51.700 facilitating this literally
00:13:53.820 in the last minute.
00:13:55.360 And we're just,
00:13:56.320 we're grateful.
00:13:56.960 We listened,
00:13:57.940 we communicated,
00:13:58.740 and we look forward
00:13:59.980 to further conversations.
00:14:01.760 That was Ontario's premier,
00:14:03.300 Doug Ford,
00:14:03.880 flanked by Quebec's
00:14:04.800 Francois Legault
00:14:05.720 and Saskatchewan's Scott Moe,
00:14:07.800 talking about the meeting.
00:14:09.300 Everything went well
00:14:10.260 until British Columbia's
00:14:11.540 David Eby
00:14:12.080 decided to break ranks
00:14:13.760 with every other premier
00:14:14.840 and not only talk about
00:14:16.660 who they met with,
00:14:17.940 which they agreed
00:14:18.580 not to talk about,
00:14:19.800 but also talk about
00:14:20.820 how the 51st state
00:14:22.060 was a non-starter.
00:14:23.580 That saw Blair reach out
00:14:25.080 on social media
00:14:25.940 because Eby broke protocol
00:14:27.580 for the meeting
00:14:28.200 to try and score
00:14:29.420 cheap political points
00:14:30.520 back home.
00:14:31.360 To say every other premier
00:14:32.880 in Canada was furious with him
00:14:34.500 might have been
00:14:35.440 an understatement.
00:14:36.660 They had just met
00:14:37.540 with the guy
00:14:38.120 who had helped Trump win
00:14:40.520 with low propensity voters.
00:14:42.760 James Blair was key
00:14:43.840 to Trump's victory.
00:14:45.240 He's now deputy chief of staff.
00:14:47.340 This is an important guy.
00:14:49.180 Sergio Gore,
00:14:50.000 for those who don't know,
00:14:51.080 is very tight with Trump.
00:14:52.960 Saying that these meetings
00:14:54.080 meant nothing
00:14:54.920 means you don't actually
00:14:56.500 understand Trump's world.
00:14:58.720 Now, beyond all of that,
00:15:00.180 in addition to the premiers,
00:15:01.620 there were business leaders
00:15:02.720 making the rounds
00:15:03.440 in Washington as well.
00:15:05.180 One of the big issues
00:15:06.080 discussed in terms of retaliation,
00:15:08.620 if we get to that point,
00:15:09.860 is the idea of tariffs
00:15:11.400 on, say, Kentucky bourbon
00:15:13.200 or, as Doug Ford has threatened,
00:15:15.700 taking American booze
00:15:16.740 off of the shelves
00:15:17.600 of Ontario's liquor stores
00:15:19.400 and not making them available
00:15:21.180 to bars and restaurants.
00:15:22.420 That's a position
00:15:23.380 that other premiers
00:15:24.300 have said they would follow.
00:15:26.080 Cal Bricker is the president
00:15:27.580 and CEO of Spirits Canada.
00:15:29.240 He was in Washington
00:15:30.220 for some of these meetings
00:15:31.760 and he says
00:15:32.580 it's actually not clear
00:15:34.160 who those sorts of measures
00:15:35.820 would hurt.
00:15:37.100 We actually sell
00:15:38.160 three times more
00:15:39.000 to the U.S.
00:15:39.720 than we bring in.
00:15:41.020 So it would be
00:15:41.600 a novel approach
00:15:43.480 to trade law
00:15:44.240 to retaliate against somebody
00:15:46.060 that you've actually
00:15:46.920 sent more product to
00:15:48.200 than you received.
00:15:48.920 The second thing
00:15:50.020 is that the supply chains
00:15:51.780 are so intertwined
00:15:52.760 that it's tough
00:15:54.140 to target
00:15:54.660 an American company
00:15:55.880 if you wanted to.
00:15:56.700 So, for example,
00:15:57.480 if you look at
00:15:58.120 a company like Diageo,
00:16:00.320 they own Crown Royal,
00:16:03.080 they own Bullet Bourbon,
00:16:04.360 they own Don Julio Tequila.
00:16:06.700 So who are you targeting
00:16:08.040 when you're talking
00:16:09.340 about launching
00:16:10.560 a tariff action?
00:16:12.020 And, frankly,
00:16:13.200 the provincial liquor boards
00:16:14.200 can't do that anyway.
00:16:15.100 It's the federal government
00:16:15.800 that charges tariffs.
00:16:17.580 The issue with the
00:16:18.220 provincial liquor boards
00:16:19.280 is that they're doing things
00:16:21.080 in a non-tariff sense.
00:16:22.520 For example,
00:16:23.040 delisting products,
00:16:24.020 not putting on the shelves,
00:16:25.400 not ordering them.
00:16:27.120 And it has a very,
00:16:28.900 very negative impact
00:16:29.860 on the jobs
00:16:31.080 and investment
00:16:31.620 and spirits in Ontario.
00:16:33.180 Bricker wasn't the only
00:16:34.100 business executive
00:16:35.040 along for the trip.
00:16:35.940 Goldie Heider
00:16:36.480 is the head
00:16:37.380 of the Business Council
00:16:38.360 of Canada,
00:16:39.440 the organization
00:16:40.260 representing
00:16:40.920 the biggest companies
00:16:41.820 in the country.
00:16:42.960 He said the Trump
00:16:43.800 administration
00:16:44.280 is looking at
00:16:45.300 a complete revamp
00:16:46.600 of the global
00:16:47.620 trading system
00:16:48.540 and that we're
00:16:49.300 just a small part
00:16:50.220 of that.
00:16:50.600 And perhaps
00:16:51.220 the message he heard
00:16:52.620 was we should calm down.
00:16:54.580 I would say
00:16:55.000 the pleasant surprise
00:16:56.020 for us
00:16:57.100 was the discussions
00:16:58.480 that we've had
00:16:59.240 with the USTR.
00:17:00.120 As you know,
00:17:01.100 the president
00:17:01.580 has put in place
00:17:02.380 an April 1st deadline
00:17:03.440 for the USTR
00:17:04.220 to provide a report.
00:17:05.200 And I guess up in Canada
00:17:05.980 we believe the report
00:17:06.880 is about us.
00:17:07.860 The reality is
00:17:08.520 it's about much more.
00:17:09.600 It's about global trade.
00:17:11.240 It's about looking at
00:17:12.080 China and other countries.
00:17:13.720 They really do want
00:17:14.460 to reorient
00:17:15.140 the global trading system
00:17:16.700 like that.
00:17:17.740 Yes, I think
00:17:18.540 that effort
00:17:19.340 will be underway
00:17:20.020 and as I said
00:17:20.980 I think we're reading
00:17:21.980 everything as if
00:17:22.720 it's applying to Canada.
00:17:23.820 We were very reassured
00:17:24.920 that while there are
00:17:26.500 ongoing irritants
00:17:27.500 some of which
00:17:27.980 have been through
00:17:28.900 decades of being irritants
00:17:30.960 that are still on the table
00:17:32.260 that everybody's hopeful
00:17:33.280 we can deal with,
00:17:34.360 there was a recognition
00:17:35.400 that A,
00:17:35.960 we have an agreement.
00:17:37.060 It's functioning,
00:17:37.880 the USMCA.
00:17:39.400 Putting tariffs in place
00:17:40.760 would effectively violate
00:17:41.880 that agreement
00:17:42.460 and to some extent
00:17:43.340 question whether
00:17:44.160 it's in existence anymore.
00:17:46.340 There is a process
00:17:47.580 by which we can get
00:17:48.440 back to the table
00:17:49.260 that we were most encouraged
00:17:50.500 that the people
00:17:51.520 who do the heavy lifting
00:17:52.480 and do the hard work
00:17:53.500 of trade agreements
00:17:54.460 are very much planning
00:17:55.660 on sitting down
00:17:56.980 and doing,
00:17:57.680 in their own words,
00:17:58.360 a review of the USMCA
00:18:00.100 which is exactly
00:18:00.840 what's called for
00:18:02.240 in 2026.
00:18:03.600 So that leaves
00:18:04.380 some reason for hope.
00:18:05.800 Well, hope is hard
00:18:06.640 to come by these days
00:18:07.840 and Trump's terror of threats
00:18:09.200 and, well,
00:18:10.500 they change by the day.
00:18:11.520 Even while I was
00:18:12.680 in Washington,
00:18:13.580 he signed a new
00:18:14.220 executive order
00:18:15.000 that was thought
00:18:16.180 to be about India
00:18:17.160 and the EU
00:18:18.060 and reciprocal tariffs
00:18:19.380 but then he added
00:18:20.760 in shots about Canada
00:18:21.880 and the digital services tax
00:18:23.760 the Trudeau government
00:18:24.540 brought in last year
00:18:25.520 that even the Biden admin
00:18:26.940 was against
00:18:28.160 and said would result
00:18:29.240 in tariffs.
00:18:29.920 Well,
00:18:30.760 that turned everything
00:18:31.740 on its head.
00:18:32.720 He continues to talk
00:18:33.760 about Canada
00:18:34.380 as a 51st state
00:18:35.680 while saying
00:18:36.780 we have nothing
00:18:37.820 that America wants.
00:18:39.340 He clearly wants us
00:18:40.580 and so everything
00:18:42.080 is basically off balance.
00:18:44.400 I'll say having spent
00:18:45.400 three days in Washington
00:18:46.540 that it was completely
00:18:47.840 worth the trip
00:18:48.500 for the premiers
00:18:49.100 and the business leaders
00:18:50.120 to make the jaunt down.
00:18:52.740 You get to understand
00:18:53.700 what people are saying
00:18:54.700 and what they think.
00:18:56.520 Manitoba premier
00:18:57.360 Wab Canu
00:18:58.040 said that this was
00:18:59.540 a charm offensive
00:19:00.280 and he's completely right.
00:19:02.140 He said it was about
00:19:02.900 the ability
00:19:03.620 to meet people,
00:19:05.500 to smile at them
00:19:06.380 as only Wab Canu can,
00:19:07.820 and then to make
00:19:09.140 that personal connection.
00:19:10.680 And I can tell you
00:19:11.280 having done business
00:19:12.280 in Washington
00:19:13.020 over the last 20 years,
00:19:14.320 they put a greater emphasis
00:19:15.920 on that personal meeting,
00:19:17.660 that connection
00:19:18.640 than we do in Canada.
00:19:20.100 So these meetings,
00:19:21.640 maybe they don't have
00:19:22.980 a short-term impact,
00:19:24.260 but they will have
00:19:24.860 a long-term one.
00:19:26.220 Now,
00:19:26.680 as for the other issue,
00:19:27.740 the one beyond tariffs,
00:19:28.800 the idea of us
00:19:29.440 becoming the 51st state,
00:19:31.860 it took some time
00:19:32.580 to reconnect
00:19:33.140 with the man
00:19:34.140 who was one of Trump's
00:19:35.260 top advisors
00:19:36.020 in his first term
00:19:37.020 to get a sense
00:19:38.180 of the American
00:19:39.040 president's thinking.
00:19:40.740 My chat with Steve Bannon
00:19:41.800 comes up
00:19:42.480 right after this break.
00:19:46.940 Did you lock
00:19:47.700 the front door?
00:19:48.340 Check.
00:19:48.880 Close the garage door?
00:19:50.060 Yep.
00:19:50.540 Installed window sensors,
00:19:51.620 smoke sensors,
00:19:52.320 and HD cameras
00:19:53.120 with night vision?
00:19:54.040 No.
00:19:54.840 And you set up
00:19:55.440 credit card transaction alerts,
00:19:56.580 a secure VPN
00:19:57.260 for a private connection,
00:19:58.320 and continuous monitoring
00:19:59.280 for our personal info
00:20:00.060 on the dark web?
00:20:01.320 Uh,
00:20:02.160 I'm looking into it?
00:20:03.860 Stress less
00:20:04.500 about security.
00:20:05.280 Choose security solutions
00:20:06.760 from Telus
00:20:07.340 for peace of mind
00:20:08.100 at home and online.
00:20:09.800 Visit telus.com
00:20:10.900 slash total security
00:20:11.960 to learn more.
00:20:13.020 Conditions apply.
00:20:15.320 Wait,
00:20:16.240 I didn't get charged
00:20:17.580 for my donut.
00:20:18.720 It was free
00:20:19.260 with this Tim's Rewards points.
00:20:20.880 I think I just stole it.
00:20:22.260 I'm a donut stealer!
00:20:24.180 Oof.
00:20:24.840 Earn points so fast,
00:20:26.040 it'll seem too good
00:20:26.860 to be true.
00:20:27.880 Plus,
00:20:28.340 join Tim's Rewards today
00:20:29.380 and get enough points
00:20:30.360 for a free donut,
00:20:31.420 drink,
00:20:31.780 or Timbits.
00:20:32.660 With 800 points
00:20:33.460 after registration,
00:20:34.380 activation,
00:20:34.720 and first purchase
00:20:35.520 of a dollar or more.
00:20:36.460 See the Tim's app
00:20:37.000 for details
00:20:37.480 at participating restaurants
00:20:38.500 in Canada
00:20:38.840 for a limited time.
00:20:42.600 Ontario,
00:20:43.480 the wait is over!
00:20:44.980 The gold standard
00:20:45.720 of online casinos
00:20:46.740 has arrived.
00:20:47.780 Golden Nugget
00:20:48.520 Online Casino
00:20:49.380 is live,
00:20:50.080 bringing Vegas-style
00:20:51.060 excitement
00:20:51.520 and a world-class
00:20:52.580 gaming experience
00:20:53.540 right to your fingertips.
00:20:55.440 Whether you're
00:20:55.880 a seasoned player
00:20:56.620 or just starting,
00:20:57.760 signing up is fast
00:20:58.700 and simple.
00:20:59.660 And in just a few clicks,
00:21:01.200 you can have access
00:21:01.840 to our exclusive library
00:21:03.180 of the best slots
00:21:04.260 and top-tier table games.
00:21:06.120 Make the most
00:21:06.760 of your downtime
00:21:07.400 with unbeatable promotions
00:21:08.940 and jackpots
00:21:09.740 that can turn
00:21:10.260 any mundane moment
00:21:11.540 into a golden opportunity
00:21:13.060 at Golden Nugget
00:21:14.300 Online Casino.
00:21:15.600 Take a spin
00:21:16.120 on the slots,
00:21:16.960 challenge yourself
00:21:17.540 at the tables,
00:21:18.280 or join a live dealer game
00:21:19.760 to feel the thrill
00:21:20.760 of real-time action,
00:21:22.080 all from the comfort
00:21:23.040 of your own devices.
00:21:24.280 Why settle for less
00:21:25.280 when you can go
00:21:26.040 for the gold
00:21:26.780 at Golden Nugget
00:21:28.040 Online Casino.
00:21:29.620 Gambling problem?
00:21:30.500 Call Connex Ontario
00:21:31.580 1-866-531-2600.
00:21:34.800 19 and over.
00:21:35.720 Physically present
00:21:36.280 in Ontario.
00:21:37.100 Eligibility restrictions apply.
00:21:38.700 See goldennuggetcasino.com
00:21:40.400 for details.
00:21:41.180 Please play responsibly.
00:21:42.840 Steve Bannon
00:21:43.500 is an interesting,
00:21:44.940 if not controversial,
00:21:46.220 figure.
00:21:46.920 I first met the man
00:21:47.660 more than a decade ago.
00:21:48.960 He had come in
00:21:49.500 to help run
00:21:50.380 the Breitbart News
00:21:51.320 organization
00:21:52.100 after the passing
00:21:52.940 of founder,
00:21:54.260 the late,
00:21:54.620 great Andrew Breitbart,
00:21:55.900 the man I also
00:21:56.580 was able to get to know.
00:21:58.020 This was 2012.
00:21:59.440 It was the first
00:22:00.040 Obama administration,
00:22:01.480 long before Donald Trump
00:22:02.580 was even thinking
00:22:03.340 of running to be president.
00:22:04.880 I worked with Bannon
00:22:05.920 and Breitbart
00:22:06.580 on some projects.
00:22:07.880 I appeared on his radio show.
00:22:09.860 He appeared on my old
00:22:11.340 Sun News Network TV show.
00:22:13.600 But never did I think
00:22:14.680 this man would end up
00:22:15.620 in the White House
00:22:16.320 as the chief political strategist
00:22:18.020 to the American president.
00:22:19.500 But that's where Bannon
00:22:20.620 ended up.
00:22:21.540 He even developed
00:22:22.320 a kind of bestie relationship,
00:22:24.940 according to media reports anyway,
00:22:26.580 with Justin Trudeau's
00:22:27.860 old top advisor,
00:22:28.880 Jerry Butts,
00:22:29.660 as our two countries
00:22:30.960 were dealing with trade
00:22:31.960 and other issues.
00:22:33.460 Bannon isn't really part
00:22:34.880 of Trump's inner circle anymore,
00:22:36.160 but he is still
00:22:37.340 a major player
00:22:38.420 in the MAGA movement
00:22:40.140 and someone who understands
00:22:41.620 Trump thinking.
00:22:42.680 So I took a chance
00:22:43.760 to reach out,
00:22:45.000 reconnect with Bannon.
00:22:46.380 I dropped by his war room,
00:22:47.540 just stepped from
00:22:48.140 the U.S. Supreme Court
00:22:49.200 to ask him about
00:22:50.780 what Trump really means
00:22:52.260 with all this
00:22:53.600 51st state talk.
00:22:55.540 So, Steve,
00:22:56.700 what is the motivation
00:22:59.500 behind all of these
00:23:00.540 different actions
00:23:02.100 that Donald Trump
00:23:02.840 is taking?
00:23:03.480 Days of thunder?
00:23:04.900 Yeah, whether it's Canada
00:23:06.100 or Panama
00:23:06.820 or Greenland,
00:23:08.700 I keep hearing people say,
00:23:09.960 there's no relation,
00:23:11.160 it doesn't make any sense,
00:23:12.440 and I say,
00:23:13.200 well,
00:23:13.780 I don't get the
00:23:15.320 Canadian angle yet,
00:23:16.560 maybe you can explain it to me,
00:23:17.740 but I get a lot
00:23:18.420 of the other angles
00:23:19.100 because I look at it
00:23:19.860 and I see he's trying
00:23:20.900 to combat China.
00:23:22.360 Well, you look at,
00:23:23.020 just in that,
00:23:24.600 that's of a whole piece.
00:23:26.300 It makes total
00:23:27.820 geostrategic
00:23:28.740 and geoeconomic sense.
00:23:30.400 This ties to what's happened
00:23:31.760 the last 24 or 48 hours
00:23:33.480 in Europe
00:23:34.040 with Pete Hexas
00:23:35.340 and Scott Besson
00:23:37.400 over with NATO.
00:23:38.740 What President Trump
00:23:39.420 laid out
00:23:39.900 in what I call
00:23:41.040 the Panama to Greenland
00:23:42.020 is kind of
00:23:42.820 Alfred Mahan's
00:23:45.060 naval strategy
00:23:45.940 to say,
00:23:47.300 he's going to look
00:23:47.840 at hemispheric defense,
00:23:49.000 kind of Monroe Doctrine 2.0,
00:23:51.040 and that's going to be
00:23:51.760 from taking back
00:23:52.900 the Panama Canal
00:23:53.660 to make sure
00:23:54.200 the Chinese Navy
00:23:55.200 and the Russian Navy
00:23:55.940 can never hook up
00:23:56.840 in the Caribbean
00:23:57.960 all the way up
00:23:59.120 to Greenland.
00:24:00.420 And remember,
00:24:00.960 Greenland,
00:24:01.440 if you control Greenland
00:24:02.500 or are in partnership
00:24:03.320 with the Free Greenland
00:24:04.300 and have bases there
00:24:05.840 like we've had
00:24:06.640 in World War II,
00:24:08.380 there it was to keep
00:24:09.300 the sea lanes open.
00:24:10.660 Here it was to close
00:24:11.540 the sea lanes
00:24:12.360 against Russian
00:24:14.020 fast attack
00:24:14.840 and ballistic missile
00:24:15.660 submarines
00:24:16.100 coming out of the Arctic
00:24:17.200 out of both
00:24:18.320 Murmansk and Archangel.
00:24:20.080 If you control
00:24:20.860 that sea lane
00:24:21.560 between Greenland
00:24:22.260 and Iceland,
00:24:22.880 which the United States
00:24:23.640 will do,
00:24:24.560 and not just have
00:24:25.280 tracking Sona boys
00:24:26.200 but actually control
00:24:26.940 it with naval forces,
00:24:28.220 and you control
00:24:28.720 the Panama Canal,
00:24:30.260 you've essentially
00:24:31.180 hermetically sealed
00:24:32.540 the United States
00:24:34.040 from, you know,
00:24:35.580 from attack
00:24:36.380 by the Soviets,
00:24:37.100 by the Russians.
00:24:37.600 If you add
00:24:38.660 then Canada
00:24:40.200 geostrategically
00:24:41.560 because the new
00:24:42.940 great game
00:24:43.700 and the great game
00:24:44.360 people should know
00:24:44.900 was this strategic
00:24:46.080 contest in the 19th century
00:24:47.520 between the British Empire
00:24:48.740 and the Russian Empire
00:24:50.620 through Afghanistan
00:24:51.940 and Persia
00:24:52.720 for access
00:24:53.680 to warm water ports
00:24:54.920 and to access
00:24:55.920 to India,
00:24:57.020 which Britain
00:24:57.960 was trying to stop.
00:24:59.200 The new great game
00:25:00.020 of the 21st century
00:25:00.880 is going to be
00:25:01.200 the Arctic.
00:25:02.060 It's already
00:25:02.580 a great power struggle
00:25:03.580 between the Chinese
00:25:04.400 Communist Party
00:25:05.060 and the Russians
00:25:06.640 up there.
00:25:07.580 Canada's former
00:25:08.480 most secure border,
00:25:09.800 your northern provinces,
00:25:10.640 are now
00:25:11.160 your soft underbelly.
00:25:12.800 And so what
00:25:13.180 President Trump
00:25:13.680 is saying is that
00:25:14.620 if you look
00:25:15.080 at the entire picture,
00:25:16.600 everywhere from
00:25:17.240 the three island chains
00:25:18.240 in the Pacific,
00:25:19.380 that would just guarantee
00:25:20.360 that the Pacific
00:25:21.160 became a natural barrier
00:25:22.460 for Canada,
00:25:23.700 coupled with
00:25:24.380 what's happening
00:25:25.280 in the Arctic,
00:25:25.900 what the United States
00:25:26.600 is going to do,
00:25:27.260 coupled with Greenland
00:25:28.100 and its hemispheric
00:25:28.860 defense.
00:25:29.820 There's such a compelling
00:25:30.780 logic on both
00:25:32.080 geostrategically
00:25:33.140 and geoeconomically
00:25:34.360 when you look at
00:25:34.940 the combination
00:25:35.540 of the markets.
00:25:36.280 This is what
00:25:36.620 President Trump,
00:25:37.220 I think,
00:25:37.460 is talking about tariffs.
00:25:39.120 If you look at
00:25:39.660 particularly your
00:25:40.420 western provinces,
00:25:41.940 which your western
00:25:42.500 provinces,
00:25:43.720 for people in Canada,
00:25:44.960 the western provinces
00:25:45.760 of Canada
00:25:46.420 are not that much
00:25:48.660 different than
00:25:49.260 Montana,
00:25:49.900 Wyoming,
00:25:50.480 Colorado,
00:25:51.240 Oklahoma,
00:25:51.840 Texas.
00:25:52.320 It's that western
00:25:52.980 frontier mentality
00:25:54.060 with the same kind
00:25:55.300 of natural resources,
00:25:56.900 both agriculture
00:25:57.840 and natural resources
00:25:58.980 and oil and gas.
00:26:00.040 So there's so many
00:26:01.120 compelling logic.
00:26:02.000 And President Trump's
00:26:02.660 laying it out there.
00:26:03.560 Don't look at Canada
00:26:04.720 separate from Greenland
00:26:05.860 and from Panama
00:26:06.760 because it's of a
00:26:07.760 whole piece.
00:26:08.360 He's about
00:26:09.340 hemispheric defense.
00:26:11.140 And once you bother
00:26:11.860 think about it,
00:26:12.540 hang on,
00:26:13.520 but this is for the
00:26:14.240 Canadians too on your
00:26:15.160 defense budget and
00:26:15.940 particularly NATO.
00:26:17.100 He said today with
00:26:18.000 NATO that,
00:26:19.860 and this goes for
00:26:20.660 Canada,
00:26:21.120 he says,
00:26:21.400 hey,
00:26:21.540 no offense,
00:26:22.020 we bailed you out
00:26:22.620 in World War I,
00:26:23.740 we bailed you out
00:26:24.560 in World War II,
00:26:25.600 we bailed you out
00:26:26.300 in the Cold War,
00:26:27.460 that you're just
00:26:28.180 not a priority more.
00:26:29.080 And the Russian army
00:26:29.800 is kind of your
00:26:30.400 problem.
00:26:30.740 We'll still be there,
00:26:32.160 but it's not vital
00:26:33.100 national security
00:26:33.860 interests.
00:26:34.360 And the Canadian
00:26:34.820 people,
00:26:35.280 I think,
00:26:35.800 have to have
00:26:36.280 a deep conversation
00:26:38.460 with themselves
00:26:39.280 about the direction
00:26:40.660 of the 21st century.
00:26:42.040 I mean,
00:26:42.620 Canada's been a
00:26:43.320 tremendous ally
00:26:43.960 of the United States,
00:26:44.580 but they've been a
00:26:45.080 better ally of
00:26:45.880 Britain and Europe.
00:26:46.640 Look at the blood
00:26:47.320 sacrificed by the
00:26:48.360 Canadian people
00:26:48.840 in World War I.
00:26:50.260 Massive.
00:26:51.200 Massive.
00:26:51.600 Look at the bravery.
00:26:52.880 People never talk
00:26:53.700 about it,
00:26:54.060 but on D-Day,
00:26:54.800 look at the sacrifice
00:26:55.800 of the Canadian forces
00:26:57.080 at the tip of the
00:26:58.380 tip of the spear
00:26:59.060 on D-Day and then
00:27:00.060 going through Normandy
00:27:01.960 and the breakout
00:27:02.480 to Paris.
00:27:03.700 Tremendous sacrifice.
00:27:06.520 Look at everything
00:27:07.200 that happened early on
00:27:08.380 when the American
00:27:09.180 volunteers went up
00:27:09.940 to Canada to become
00:27:11.120 part of the Royal Air
00:27:12.000 Force to fight
00:27:12.680 the Nazis in the early
00:27:14.100 days.
00:27:14.520 Canada,
00:27:15.280 as much as the
00:27:16.220 United States,
00:27:16.880 has sacrificed more
00:27:17.860 for old Europe,
00:27:18.700 as Churchill said.
00:27:20.180 I think Churchill
00:27:20.760 actually said it in
00:27:21.760 Canada,
00:27:22.640 that the new world
00:27:23.900 was coming to the
00:27:24.480 defense of the old
00:27:25.120 world.
00:27:25.640 Well, look,
00:27:25.980 after doing it for
00:27:26.860 a century,
00:27:28.020 the new world's
00:27:28.660 saying,
00:27:28.960 look,
00:27:29.140 we have our own
00:27:30.000 strategic concerns,
00:27:31.060 particularly with the
00:27:31.580 Chinese Communist Party.
00:27:33.040 And please,
00:27:33.560 in Canada,
00:27:34.080 remember,
00:27:35.040 the greatest
00:27:35.560 vulnerability we have
00:27:36.760 now is the Arctic.
00:27:38.220 Okay?
00:27:38.560 That's where it all
00:27:39.280 comes together.
00:27:39.940 It's a great power
00:27:40.660 struggle.
00:27:41.780 And President Trump
00:27:42.900 is bound and determined
00:27:43.840 to secure the United
00:27:45.100 States from that.
00:27:46.120 And that's why I think
00:27:46.820 Canada is a central
00:27:47.860 part.
00:27:48.480 If you go back and
00:27:49.280 look at the economics
00:27:50.200 of both us as a
00:27:52.000 unified market,
00:27:52.840 geo-economically,
00:27:54.080 if you look at the
00:27:54.820 logic of us united
00:27:56.260 geo-strategically
00:27:57.420 in a hemispheric
00:27:58.640 defense,
00:27:59.460 the logic speaks for
00:28:00.480 itself.
00:28:00.860 I just think
00:28:01.680 it's now time
00:28:02.360 for the Canadian
00:28:03.040 people to start
00:28:04.100 to really think
00:28:05.240 through the 21st
00:28:06.740 century.
00:28:07.220 Because if you look
00:28:08.080 at Canadian
00:28:08.560 politics,
00:28:09.400 it's been so much
00:28:10.660 small ball over the
00:28:12.040 last couple of
00:28:12.560 decades.
00:28:13.040 Now,
00:28:13.700 huge questions
00:28:15.180 about the future
00:28:16.000 of the country
00:28:16.580 and the future
00:28:17.180 of the 21st
00:28:17.880 century are before
00:28:18.860 you.
00:28:19.460 President Trump
00:28:20.060 is not trolling
00:28:20.640 people on this.
00:28:21.320 I have people
00:28:21.820 call me all day
00:28:22.540 long.
00:28:23.220 Is President Trump
00:28:23.840 just trolling?
00:28:24.580 Is President Trump
00:28:25.140 just trolling Canadians?
00:28:25.920 Well, that's what it
00:28:26.200 seemed like at the
00:28:26.800 beginning.
00:28:27.140 It seemed like he
00:28:28.080 was poking Justin
00:28:28.880 Trudeau in the eye.
00:28:29.960 Although he refers to
00:28:32.060 Trudeau as Governor
00:28:32.840 Trudeau, he is not for
00:28:35.340 the Canadian people.
00:28:36.280 This is why I've
00:28:36.860 decided in a very busy
00:28:37.860 time to take this
00:28:38.940 interview because I've
00:28:40.120 such respect for you
00:28:41.540 and such respect for
00:28:42.460 your paper.
00:28:43.380 This is serious.
00:28:44.760 President Trump
00:28:45.240 could, I think of
00:28:46.000 everything we're
00:28:46.640 working on that
00:28:47.800 President Trump's
00:28:48.360 working on, I think
00:28:49.900 this hemispheric
00:28:50.640 defense, which is
00:28:52.440 Panama, it's also
00:28:53.380 Latin America with
00:28:54.640 Bolsonaro and with
00:28:55.720 Millet and getting
00:28:56.860 the Chinese Communist
00:28:57.540 Party out of the
00:28:58.260 Amazon, but this
00:28:59.600 part from Panama to
00:29:01.740 the security of all
00:29:03.300 of it with Greenland
00:29:04.220 and Canada and the
00:29:05.020 Arctic, coupled with
00:29:06.280 getting out 10 million
00:29:07.840 or 12 million illegal
00:29:08.920 alien invaders that
00:29:10.100 were able to come
00:29:10.700 through our country
00:29:11.200 through the southern
00:29:11.760 border, he is not
00:29:13.660 trolling the Canadians.
00:29:14.780 He's certainly not
00:29:15.500 trolling your prime
00:29:18.040 minister who he refers
00:29:19.260 to as your governor.
00:29:20.440 So the part that I
00:29:21.780 think a lot of
00:29:22.320 Canadians wouldn't get,
00:29:23.380 and first off, they're
00:29:24.060 just going to, people
00:29:25.000 will be angry, and
00:29:25.920 there's a very emotional
00:29:26.860 response, and Donald
00:29:29.000 Trump, by talking about
00:29:30.100 the 51st state and the
00:29:31.400 tariff issues, may
00:29:32.400 actually help re-elect
00:29:33.500 Trudeau's Liberal
00:29:34.300 Party with Mark Carney
00:29:35.600 as the new leader, but
00:29:36.660 the part that a lot of
00:29:37.840 Canadians would be
00:29:38.600 scratching their heads
00:29:39.360 at and saying, well,
00:29:40.540 that doesn't make any
00:29:41.260 sense, there's no
00:29:42.700 aggressive war with
00:29:44.820 China, there's no,
00:29:46.460 you know, nothing with
00:29:47.580 Russia, we don't have
00:29:48.220 to be worried, we're
00:29:49.040 past the point of
00:29:50.360 needing to be worried
00:29:51.060 about defense, is the
00:29:52.680 view of a lot of
00:29:53.400 people.
00:29:54.340 The view of anybody
00:29:55.200 that thinks that is
00:29:56.460 sound asleep, and let
00:29:57.400 me wake them up.
00:29:58.700 Number one, let's go
00:30:00.360 back to World War II,
00:30:01.440 of which, remember,
00:30:02.600 Canada has shed more
00:30:04.420 blood per capita than
00:30:06.300 probably any democracy
00:30:07.620 in the West in pursuit
00:30:10.240 of freedom, okay?
00:30:12.240 The bravery and
00:30:13.140 courage to Canadian
00:30:13.740 people can't be
00:30:14.420 questioned, it's
00:30:15.020 unbelievable what you
00:30:15.900 guys have done, but I
00:30:17.180 think now you've got to
00:30:17.860 think about what was
00:30:19.300 that all for?
00:30:20.140 If you go back to
00:30:21.580 World War II, if we're
00:30:23.100 looking at the same
00:30:23.600 place like in 1939 after
00:30:25.280 the invasion of Poland
00:30:26.060 where the war really
00:30:26.820 actually kind of got
00:30:27.840 going, not the preamble
00:30:30.200 to it, which was a long
00:30:31.360 lead up.
00:30:33.160 There were not that many
00:30:34.360 casualties even through
00:30:35.760 the fall of France.
00:30:37.520 Look what's happened in
00:30:38.320 Ukraine in three years,
00:30:39.260 and we've been adamantly
00:30:40.120 opposed to any
00:30:41.000 involvement in Ukraine, it
00:30:41.960 was ridiculous.
00:30:42.520 As President Trump
00:30:43.780 reiterated today, 1.5
00:30:46.580 million people have
00:30:47.860 either been slaughtered
00:30:48.980 or wounded in this war,
00:30:50.460 a million Ukrainians, and
00:30:52.320 500, 750,000 Russian
00:30:54.200 troops.
00:30:56.240 Ukraine looks like
00:30:57.200 Kiev.
00:30:58.200 If you look at the
00:30:58.900 carnage that's going on,
00:31:00.180 you throw in the Middle
00:31:00.900 East, it's far greater
00:31:02.100 than the early years of
00:31:03.260 the Second World War, and
00:31:04.480 we saw how that ended.
00:31:06.080 If you also look at the
00:31:07.280 Chinese Communist Party,
00:31:08.600 unrestricted warfare, the
00:31:09.720 Chinese Communist Party
00:31:10.540 has been at war with the
00:31:11.720 United States since May
00:31:12.660 of 1989.
00:31:13.980 She said it, the
00:31:15.160 People's War.
00:31:16.420 They're doing it through
00:31:17.260 cyber, they're doing it
00:31:18.380 through political warfare,
00:31:19.440 they're doing it through
00:31:19.900 information warfare,
00:31:21.000 they're doing it through
00:31:21.800 political interference in
00:31:22.600 Canada?
00:31:23.000 Canada, you guys are much
00:31:24.260 far, look, as badly as
00:31:25.520 we're infiltrated, Canada's
00:31:27.320 actually worse, and
00:31:28.580 Trudeau has exacerbated
00:31:29.800 this.
00:31:30.560 This is something the
00:31:31.360 Canadian people have got
00:31:32.000 to wake up to.
00:31:32.920 You're losing your
00:31:33.740 sovereignty as you speak.
00:31:34.880 That's why your crisis
00:31:35.840 is on your northern
00:31:36.500 border.
00:31:37.560 The irony in Canada,
00:31:39.660 given everything through
00:31:40.880 valor of arms and
00:31:42.080 courage that you've
00:31:42.860 defended, now what was
00:31:44.640 always strategically your
00:31:46.320 greatest, the thing you
00:31:47.920 had greatest, which was
00:31:48.680 your northern border and
00:31:49.780 kind of the Arctic, now
00:31:51.700 becomes your greatest
00:31:52.440 exposure to actual losing
00:31:54.240 territorial integrity and
00:31:55.540 sovereignty, the Chinese
00:31:56.500 Communist Party, which has
00:31:57.460 already infiltrated Canada.
00:31:59.280 Look at Huawei, look at
00:32:00.160 all the situations in
00:32:01.180 Canada.
00:32:02.040 They're at war just
00:32:02.800 because, remember, in
00:32:03.960 Chinese Communist Party
00:32:04.900 doctrine, if they have to
00:32:06.440 start shooting, like Sun
00:32:07.280 Tzu, if they have to start
00:32:08.200 shooting, they think the
00:32:09.700 kinetic part, which has
00:32:11.060 already started in Europe
00:32:12.060 and Ukraine, the kinetic
00:32:13.160 part of the war is where
00:32:14.860 they don't want to take on
00:32:16.420 the foreign devils, right?
00:32:17.600 Because the foreign devils
00:32:18.400 know how to man up and
00:32:19.660 know how to fight.
00:32:20.680 What they want to do is
00:32:21.600 unrestricted warfare is
00:32:22.860 defeat the West even before
00:32:24.640 any guns are fired, and
00:32:25.640 they're quite far advanced in
00:32:27.500 the United States, and I
00:32:28.600 would argue they're farther
00:32:29.460 advanced than Canada.
00:32:30.780 So don't, people sit there
00:32:31.980 and go, we're not really
00:32:32.760 at war.
00:32:33.420 That's like people in Europe
00:32:34.700 in 1930, in the summer of
00:32:37.040 1939, sitting there going,
00:32:38.620 you know, we're actually
00:32:39.880 not at war, it's a
00:32:40.660 beautiful summer here, and
00:32:42.220 the clouds of war were all
00:32:44.380 over them, they just
00:32:45.020 couldn't see over the
00:32:45.700 horizon.
00:32:46.920 It was around 2010, I
00:32:48.440 think it was President
00:32:49.200 Hu back then, was coming
00:32:51.380 to Canada.
00:32:52.260 He was going to visit then
00:32:54.280 Prime Minister Stephen
00:32:55.080 Harper.
00:32:56.500 Official visit, things had
00:32:57.860 not changed, even the
00:32:58.960 bipartisan consensus in
00:33:00.980 Washington still hadn't
00:33:02.020 changed towards China.
00:33:03.420 It has now, and it has in
00:33:04.740 Canada.
00:33:05.260 Well, maybe not for
00:33:06.460 Trudeau's liberals, but I
00:33:08.000 remember reading a piece
00:33:09.340 where Hu said, before he
00:33:11.560 left, I mean, this was
00:33:12.460 clearly a planted message to
00:33:14.340 send to Canada as he was
00:33:16.640 coming for a visit, that
00:33:17.520 they view themselves as an
00:33:18.920 Arctic nation, and they
00:33:20.500 believe that they get the
00:33:21.680 resources in the Arctic.
00:33:23.380 They have a very different
00:33:24.440 vision of the future of the
00:33:26.180 Arctic than Canada or the
00:33:28.000 United States does, and it
00:33:29.640 includes them pillaging it.
00:33:31.460 It includes them controlling
00:33:32.560 it and controlling the
00:33:33.620 territory of northern Canada.
00:33:35.040 You're absolutely correct.
00:33:37.360 This is not just something
00:33:38.480 that came to President
00:33:39.180 Trump out of nowhere.
00:33:40.060 This is the aggressiveness of
00:33:41.920 the Chinese Communist Party
00:33:43.040 in the Arctic, geostrategically
00:33:45.220 and for resources.
00:33:46.900 And as a wake-up call, when
00:33:49.100 they say the Arctic, they
00:33:50.220 just don't mean the polar
00:33:51.120 cap.
00:33:52.040 They mean coming down and
00:33:53.420 you're going to lose, it's
00:33:54.560 just quite simple, your
00:33:55.980 dominion nation.
00:33:57.360 But in your alliance in the
00:33:58.800 dominion, is NATO going to
00:34:00.040 come and help you?
00:34:00.740 Is NATO that won't pay for
00:34:01.840 themselves?
00:34:02.560 Are they going to come and
00:34:03.380 help you in the Arctic?
00:34:04.100 The territorial integrity and
00:34:06.280 sovereignty of Canada is
00:34:08.520 going to be tested and lost
00:34:10.180 in the northern provinces and
00:34:13.080 around Canada.
00:34:13.880 And he said it on a state
00:34:14.980 visit.
00:34:15.660 This was 14 years ago.
00:34:17.600 And they've been laboring
00:34:18.400 away long before then, but
00:34:20.000 they've been laboring away
00:34:20.960 since then.
00:34:23.400 And they're a major Arctic
00:34:24.460 power.
00:34:25.240 So you mentioned Panama,
00:34:29.000 Greenland, Canada.
00:34:30.800 Canada, don't separate them
00:34:32.160 out.
00:34:34.100 I was just here covering all
00:34:35.900 the provincial premiers going
00:34:37.140 into meetings at the White
00:34:38.160 House, going into meetings
00:34:39.140 with officials, talked to
00:34:41.920 business leaders who were in
00:34:43.120 meetings and all those as
00:34:44.360 well.
00:34:44.540 They said defense was raised,
00:34:46.680 the border was raised,
00:34:48.080 fentanyl was raised.
00:34:48.920 No one raised the 51st state
00:34:50.540 idea.
00:34:51.680 So does President Trump
00:34:54.000 believe that Canada does need
00:34:55.400 to become a 51st state or just
00:34:56.840 grow up and act like we used
00:34:59.280 to do?
00:35:03.580 President Trump, look, in a
00:35:06.740 wide range of verticals that
00:35:09.420 he's going down every day and
00:35:10.700 dropping thunderbolts in the
00:35:12.140 days of thunder, where he
00:35:14.440 spends his time and what he
00:35:15.800 talks about, people should
00:35:16.960 take as a papal bull because
00:35:20.000 it's opportunity costs.
00:35:21.120 He could talk about other
00:35:22.100 things.
00:35:23.280 What is he doing today?
00:35:25.080 Today, he's not only meeting
00:35:26.660 Modi of India, who he's very
00:35:29.260 close to, but he's also signing
00:35:30.500 the tariffs on reciprocity.
00:35:31.840 They do not.
00:35:33.140 That's not for Canada.
00:35:33.960 It's not for Canada.
00:35:35.100 That's for India.
00:35:35.560 It's not Canada.
00:35:36.520 But you can see in his overall
00:35:38.260 economic model for the United
00:35:39.660 States, revenues from outside
00:35:41.560 are going to come and lessen the
00:35:43.440 deficits we have here because
00:35:45.060 he believes this is a premier
00:35:46.300 market.
00:35:47.080 He knows it's a premium market.
00:35:49.060 So you have to pay just like you
00:35:50.420 would buy a skybox at a sporting
00:35:51.920 event or get a front row ticket at
00:35:54.040 a concert.
00:35:54.720 You're going to pay a premium.
00:35:56.300 And what he's saying is that, hey,
00:35:57.380 if you give tariffs on a lot of
00:35:58.500 this, I think, is aimed specifically
00:35:59.900 in India.
00:36:00.840 That's why it's so interesting he's
00:36:01.880 doing it on this day.
00:36:03.100 But he spends his time, and
00:36:05.220 particularly when he's communicating
00:36:06.720 either the true social, what he's
00:36:08.040 talking about, I think of
00:36:09.860 everything he's working on.
00:36:11.820 I tell people, I think the
00:36:12.880 hemispheric defense, because it
00:36:14.320 also underpins his new business
00:36:16.940 model for the United States, which
00:36:18.340 we are in a very tough financial
00:36:19.780 situation.
00:36:20.980 I tell people, I don't know if he's
00:36:22.680 got a higher priority than
00:36:23.980 hemispheric defense.
00:36:25.020 But does that necessarily mean, I
00:36:29.100 mean, his latest word to describe it
00:36:30.920 as absorbing Canada, does that mean
00:36:33.140 the United States has to absorb
00:36:35.680 Canada?
00:36:35.980 Or do you work together?
00:36:37.960 The form of that is to be
00:36:39.880 determined.
00:36:40.400 Remember, President Trump is a
00:36:41.700 master dealmaker.
00:36:43.260 But I do think, just like he's making
00:36:45.800 a deal now about Ukraine and getting
00:36:48.240 that war done, he's doing a deal in
00:36:50.320 the Middle East to get that done.
00:36:51.500 And he's a deal guy.
00:36:53.700 He's a deal guy.
00:36:55.480 And he has talked about Canada as
00:36:57.200 much as he's talked about the Middle
00:36:58.420 East, probably more lately than he's
00:37:01.080 talked about Ukraine.
00:37:02.080 More.
00:37:02.980 More.
00:37:03.160 I tell folks, okay, I say, see where
00:37:06.080 he spends his time.
00:37:07.660 See what his default position when he's
00:37:10.100 got some free time.
00:37:11.820 This thing about Greenland, Panama, and
00:37:14.380 you have to look at it whole cloth.
00:37:16.320 This is about hemispheric defense and
00:37:18.380 what this market means to the world
00:37:20.460 and what this market means to the
00:37:21.680 citizens in this market.
00:37:23.820 So, he's obsessed with this issue of
00:37:27.360 Canada.
00:37:28.380 Now, I think there will be, you know,
00:37:30.540 what form it takes, I don't speak for
00:37:32.080 the president.
00:37:33.280 That's the president.
00:37:34.140 And he's got ideas about how he wants
00:37:36.420 to see things evolve.
00:37:38.580 You know, I would talk to, you know,
00:37:40.060 but I believe that leaders in Canada,
00:37:42.140 I think he is waiting for whatever
00:37:43.620 plays out for the new government.
00:37:45.020 I do believe they're going to have
00:37:46.580 serious talks.
00:37:47.860 Now, the people around him talking
00:37:50.560 about defense and things like that,
00:37:51.760 I think it's fantastic.
00:37:53.320 But don't doubt for a second that the
00:37:56.140 man himself is, quite frankly, very
00:37:58.540 obsessed with this.
00:37:59.320 And if you look at the strategy and the
00:38:02.440 economics of it, it's so compelling.
00:38:04.960 He's not going to get off this.
00:38:06.220 He's not going to, he's going to get
00:38:07.620 engaged with whoever your government is.
00:38:10.020 And there will be a process going
00:38:11.500 forward.
00:38:11.760 Now, what's the ultimate outcome of
00:38:12.980 that process?
00:38:14.080 That's, that's, that's not my line
00:38:16.140 of country.
00:38:17.180 So, for the people you said, don't
00:38:19.260 think that he's trolling.
00:38:20.500 So, for example, people still think
00:38:21.680 that this is him trying to get under
00:38:24.560 Trudeau's skin or him just trying to
00:38:27.120 set out a negotiating position.
00:38:29.300 This is about more than a
00:38:30.440 negotiation, you say.
00:38:31.180 Exactly.
00:38:31.740 I think this, he has such respect,
00:38:34.040 you know, his partners in Canada, he
00:38:35.300 has such respect.
00:38:35.880 Plus, President Trump is a student of
00:38:37.600 military history.
00:38:38.900 For those of us that are students of
00:38:40.240 military history, the valor and
00:38:41.980 heroism of the Canadians, particularly
00:38:44.340 in World War I and World War II, are
00:38:45.760 really astronomical.
00:38:47.200 I just think that there's got to be
00:38:48.900 my strongest recommendation.
00:38:50.940 I say this to all my friends and
00:38:52.060 people during the inauguration, a lot
00:38:54.120 of people from Western provinces,
00:38:55.500 business people and people in
00:38:56.820 government came and actually sat where
00:38:58.480 you're seeing today, or I hosted them
00:39:00.440 upstairs.
00:39:01.520 And I just tell them, I said, you
00:39:03.680 should begin a national conversation
00:39:05.660 about this.
00:39:06.560 This is the time that Canada should
00:39:08.120 really talk about the 21st century.
00:39:10.220 And where the comment of the
00:39:13.040 premier of president of China didn't
00:39:16.620 get a lot of play back in 2010, you
00:39:19.040 should revisit that.
00:39:19.900 And that should be a big part of the
00:39:20.840 national discussion.
00:39:21.680 Look, clearly, the Canadian people have
00:39:23.780 to make up their mind about what they
00:39:25.040 want to do and where they want to go and
00:39:26.560 who they want to be affiliated with.
00:39:27.940 But I think that conversation, that
00:39:29.900 those discussions and that debate
00:39:31.520 should commence.
00:39:32.640 It might be having the reverse
00:39:35.200 outcome of what he wanted, because
00:39:38.800 conservative leader Pierre Polyevre was
00:39:40.760 looking like he was going to form the
00:39:42.180 next government.
00:39:43.320 Now, anger over this has a Mark Carney-led
00:39:46.180 liberal government tied or leading.
00:39:49.900 And you could end up with a very left-wing
00:39:52.520 environmental zealot who will win by
00:39:56.240 campaigning against anything.
00:39:57.640 A very left-wing environmental zealot like
00:40:01.360 the government you've had will only lead
00:40:03.540 Canada more rapidly to the edge of the
00:40:06.860 abyss, right?
00:40:08.100 These people are radicals.
00:40:09.740 They have these bizarre economic
00:40:11.620 theories.
00:40:12.180 He wants a carbon tariff on anything
00:40:14.380 that comes from a country that doesn't
00:40:15.580 have it.
00:40:16.060 What would the reaction be in Washington
00:40:18.100 to Canada saying, if your climate
00:40:19.960 plan's not good enough and the American
00:40:23.040 one would not be good enough for Mark
00:40:24.760 Carney, what would the reaction be to
00:40:26.720 Canada putting a carbon tariff on
00:40:28.500 every import that we have from you?
00:40:32.320 I think it would be a complete
00:40:34.440 rethinking here in the country about
00:40:36.660 what our relationship is with Canada.
00:40:38.460 I think that if you did that, you would
00:40:40.560 essentially say that we're a hostile
00:40:43.400 power.
00:40:44.120 I think it would be reviewed by the
00:40:45.940 American people as that.
00:40:46.940 I think it would be reviewed by people
00:40:48.800 in Washington as that.
00:40:49.720 And I think it would be reviewed by
00:40:50.900 President Trump as that.
00:40:52.720 What should we be watching for in the
00:40:56.320 next couple of weeks?
00:40:58.500 Number one, I think just continue to
00:41:00.120 watch President Trump.
00:41:01.000 And one thing, it just, he's not
00:41:03.100 trolling.
00:41:04.240 And this is why I think when he talks
00:41:05.680 about this, he talks about the
00:41:06.740 geoeconomics, he talks about the
00:41:08.200 geostrategic nature of it, is you
00:41:10.920 should spend time understanding what
00:41:12.560 it means about Panama to Greenland,
00:41:14.900 what it means about the real threat to
00:41:16.860 the Canadian people, what it means
00:41:18.140 about, this is a naval strategy.
00:41:20.020 This is essentially take the Western
00:41:21.320 Hemisphere, which is an island.
00:41:22.760 It's a relatively small island off of
00:41:25.340 the Eurasian landmass, which is the
00:41:28.000 main, if you look at Earth's globe,
00:41:30.480 you have a massive landmass, Eurasia
00:41:34.540 and with Africa.
00:41:35.700 Then you have a relatively small
00:41:37.140 compared to that island off that, that
00:41:38.900 is the Western Hemisphere.
00:41:40.260 You have a Pacific Ocean that is, the
00:41:42.520 Pacific is almost like a huge ocean
00:41:44.480 desert, okay?
00:41:46.180 What the president is proposing is
00:41:48.980 really a naval strategy of the three
00:41:51.400 island chains in the Pacific, with the
00:41:53.460 Pacific Ocean also protecting us, and
00:41:56.180 Atlantic Ocean, where the United
00:41:57.900 States Navy and potentially the
00:41:59.620 Canadian Navy basically shut in the
00:42:02.700 Russian fast attack and ballistic
00:42:04.140 missile submarines in the Arctic, or
00:42:06.200 that we can follow them wherever they
00:42:07.600 go.
00:42:08.260 We've controlled the Panama Canal, so
00:42:09.960 there's no possibility of the Chinese
00:42:11.520 Navy, which is huge, teaming up with
00:42:13.360 the Russian Navy in the Caribbean.
00:42:14.980 You've essentially sealed off the
00:42:18.660 hemisphere of North America, right?
00:42:21.660 And so, hemispheric defense.
00:42:22.980 Then you look at what President Trump's
00:42:24.140 talking about in an Iron Dome with some
00:42:25.540 sort of anti-ballistic missile sort of
00:42:28.340 apparatus, of which Canada would
00:42:30.160 participate in.
00:42:31.700 It's pretty, you, unlike the sacrifice
00:42:35.920 we had in the 20th century, which did
00:42:38.580 not, remember, it did not save us from
00:42:41.220 the problems in Europe.
00:42:42.160 We then had to go back and win the Cold
00:42:43.720 War, and quite frankly, they've come back
00:42:45.720 in Ukraine, and so Europe as a cockpit
00:42:48.980 of these conflicts is not going to go
00:42:52.540 away, but that's a European problem, and
00:42:54.560 the Russian army is a European problem.
00:42:56.280 It's not an American, it's not a
00:42:57.700 Canadian problem.
00:42:58.660 I think what the Canadian people would
00:43:00.540 do is, number one, take this seriously,
00:43:03.440 follow what President Trump's saying, and
00:43:05.580 I think get it on your national agenda
00:43:07.080 and start having, you know, talk shows
00:43:09.120 and conferences.
00:43:09.820 People ought to be debating this.
00:43:11.400 All right, Steve Bannon, thanks so much.
00:43:12.820 Thank you, sir.
00:43:13.760 Appreciate you.
00:43:14.280 I hope this episode has given you some
00:43:16.780 insight into how Canada-US relations are
00:43:19.380 going these days, into how the Americans
00:43:21.700 are viewing us.
00:43:22.780 There's so much more to say than we could
00:43:24.320 possibly fit into one podcast.
00:43:27.520 One of the keys to understanding, though,
00:43:29.080 is to listen to the other side, even when
00:43:31.020 you don't agree with them.
00:43:32.420 It lets you understand where they're coming
00:43:34.380 from and then develop a strategy, a
00:43:37.040 response.
00:43:38.360 Hopefully, Canadian leaders are doing that.
00:43:40.820 I'm sure that we'll be talking about this
00:43:42.320 issue in the days to come.
00:43:43.720 And there will be more podcasts on these issues.
00:43:48.820 Full Comment is a post-media podcast.
00:43:51.320 My name's Brian Lilly, your host.
00:43:53.200 This episode was produced by Andre Proulx.
00:43:55.500 Theme music by Bryce Hall.
00:43:57.260 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.
00:43:59.800 You can subscribe to Full Comment on Apple Podcasts,
00:44:02.760 Google, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts.
00:44:05.620 Remember to leave us a review.
00:44:07.620 Tell your friends about us.
00:44:09.140 Thanks for listening.
00:44:09.820 Until next time, I'm Brian Lilly.