Full Comment - Here in Washington, the Trump vs. Canada reality isn’t what we think

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00:00:12.660 Scotiabank. You're richer than you think.

00:00:18.200 It wasn't quite Mr. Smith goes to Washington,

00:00:21.840 but there he had 13 Canadian premiers

00:00:24.120 and an assortment of business leaders

00:00:26.280 in the American capital this past week to make Canada's case.

00:00:30.460 Hello and welcome to the Full Comment Podcast.

00:00:32.640 I'm Brian Lilly, your host.

00:00:34.160 And this week, something a little different.

00:00:37.680 I just spent much of last week in Washington myself,

00:00:41.580 following the premiers, speaking to several of them,

00:00:44.340 and talking with business leaders and even American politicians

00:00:47.200 and media personalities about the cross-border relationship,

00:00:51.560 the tariffs, the 51st state.

00:00:54.740 I'm going to take you along the trip and let you hear what I heard,

00:00:58.040 the speeches I attended,

00:00:59.460 my discussions with politicians and business leaders,

00:01:02.820 even a 20-minute-long interview with Donald Trump's former chief strategist,

00:01:07.240 Steve Bannon,

00:01:08.120 on why he thinks Trump isn't bluffing about either making Canada the 51st state

00:01:13.660 or somehow bringing Canada closer to the American orbit.

00:01:17.720 In the absence of federal leadership,

00:01:20.760 provincial premiers went to the American capital one by one,

00:01:24.300 seeking audiences and seeking to make Canada's case.

00:01:28.400 In my conversations with U.S. lawmakers,

00:01:30.920 I've also heard serious concerns about China,

00:01:34.400 about how China is ripping off American workers by flooding markets 0.90

00:01:39.420 and hijacking global supply chains.

00:01:43.140 America has had enough,

00:01:45.100 American workers have had enough, 1.00

00:01:47.620 and I've had enough.

00:01:49.340 In response,

00:01:50.320 U.S. lawmakers are leading the most ambitious economic realignment

00:01:54.840 in the past 100 years.

00:01:57.920 They're decoupling from China and its global proxies. 0.95

00:02:02.140 Doing so will be no easy task.

00:02:05.180 It will require long-term thinking.

00:02:08.400 It will require dedication.

00:02:10.520 And most of all,

00:02:11.600 it will require friends and allies like Canada and Ontario.

00:02:16.880 And I can tell you,

00:02:17.920 Canada's here to help.

00:02:19.340 Ontario Premier Doug Ford spoke to about 150 people

00:02:22.700 at an event put on by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce,

00:02:25.340 perhaps the biggest business lobby group in the world.

00:02:28.740 And the message that Ford was sharing was interesting.

00:02:31.960 The problem is China, not Canada.

00:02:34.560 We need to block China from having a foothold in strategic industries 1.00

00:02:38.080 like energy and critical minerals.

00:02:41.080 Considering that pretty much everything Trump is doing is in response to

00:02:44.660 or as a way to counter China,

00:02:46.920 that message,

00:02:47.920 and Ford's other message of creating Fortress AMCAN,

00:02:51.100 a Canadian-American fortress,

00:02:53.600 well, that would be music to the ears of those

00:02:55.780 that might be listening in the Trump administration.

00:02:58.740 The problem with this event

00:03:00.160 was that it took place on the morning of Tuesday,

00:03:04.000 February 11th,

00:03:04.960 shortly after Ford arrived,

00:03:06.620 and most of the people in attendance were Canadians.

00:03:09.900 About one-third of the audience was American,

00:03:12.620 but they were mostly already on Canada's side.

00:03:15.800 Now, does that mean that the event wasn't worthwhile?

00:03:19.940 Not really.

00:03:20.480 We just had a gentleman at the podium saying that he had a very good message.

00:03:25.740 He's an American,

00:03:27.000 but there's only about a third of the room were Americans.

00:03:29.760 How do you get in front of more Americans on the trip,

00:03:32.540 make sure the right people hear the message

00:03:34.280 rather than preaching to the choir?

00:03:36.000 Well, great question, Brian.

00:03:37.580 We're going to an event tonight.

00:03:39.000 We'll be networking with senators at those events as well,

00:03:43.120 on Congress, men and women.

00:03:45.440 And we have separate meetings.

00:03:47.540 I know my colleagues, all the premiers are down here as well,

00:03:51.600 that have been setting up a meeting.

00:03:54.160 And make no mistake about it,

00:03:55.600 you know, the White House knows we're down here.

00:03:59.300 All elected officials know we're down here.

00:04:01.940 The American people know we're down here.

00:04:04.100 Because we care.

00:04:05.540 We care about the steel.

00:04:07.360 We care about the Kuzma deal, 0.70

00:04:09.800 or USMCA, or whatever you want to call it.

00:04:12.340 And just getting our message

00:04:13.920 that we're stronger together,

00:04:15.740 no matter if it's our energy,

00:04:17.940 or our manufacturing,

00:04:19.540 or the aluminum steel,

00:04:20.980 how important aluminum steel

00:04:23.220 plays in a role down here.

00:04:26.140 So we're getting the message out,

00:04:27.880 and we're happy to be down here.

00:04:29.480 In fact, Eric Miller, an American

00:04:31.240 who has run a consulting firm

00:04:33.040 that operates in Ottawa and Washington

00:04:35.320 for the last 25 years,

00:04:37.440 said that it was actually incumbent

00:04:38.860 on Ford and other Canadian politicians

00:04:41.900 to make the trip.

00:04:43.540 No, I think certainly we will look for opportunities,

00:04:47.920 is what he is thinking.

00:04:49.100 If there are ways that tariffs can be reduced,

00:04:51.860 if you can find a way to move something to 10% from 25%,

00:04:55.100 to have exemptions on things

00:04:57.420 that are just pure additions

00:04:59.020 to the cost of goods and services,

00:05:01.660 he will certainly look for that.

00:05:03.240 And so it's important that political leaders

00:05:05.280 stand up and say that Canadians 1.00

00:05:07.120 are not happy with this,

00:05:08.760 and that they need to recognize

00:05:11.260 in the United States

00:05:12.280 the criticality of the Canadian contribution

00:05:16.600 to American prosperity.

00:05:18.380 So after this event,

00:05:20.000 Ford spent the rest of the day

00:05:21.500 talking to American politicians,

00:05:23.760 lawmakers as they call them in the United States,

00:05:26.620 a series of meetings that he and his team

00:05:28.340 had set up previously.

00:05:29.840 People like Lisa McClain.

00:05:31.420 She represents Michigan's 9th District

00:05:33.860 in the House of Representatives.

00:05:35.700 This is an area that covers the areas around Detroit,

00:05:40.220 includes a lot of auto workers, parts companies.

00:05:42.340 She's also chair of the House Republican Caucus.

00:05:45.480 Then Ford met with North Dakota Senator Kevin Kramer,

00:05:48.340 a key ally of President Trump.

00:05:50.560 In fact, Kramer hosted a reception for Ford

00:05:52.840 that attracted Canadian and American leaders alike.

00:05:56.560 Bizarrely, back home in Ontario,

00:05:58.620 where Ford is in the middle of a provincial election,

00:06:01.420 he was attacked by Ontario's Liberal leader,

00:06:03.400 Bonnie Crombie,

00:06:04.480 for meeting with people who support tariffs.

00:06:07.300 I mean, isn't that the whole point of this trip?

00:06:09.220 You need to talk to people who disagree with you

00:06:11.860 if you want to change their minds.

00:06:14.640 No sense talking to people who already hate Trump,

00:06:17.540 think that what he's doing is wrong.

00:06:18.940 You need to talk to people

00:06:20.100 who were on board with the American president

00:06:22.440 and change their way of thinking.

00:06:25.020 Now, as much as the premiers were there

00:06:27.320 on a united mission,

00:06:28.920 they also took on their own individual agendas.

00:06:32.760 Ford with his meetings on Tuesday,

00:06:34.820 Saskatchewan Scott Moe with a series of meetings

00:06:37.580 with members of the House and Senate

00:06:39.320 with an interest in energy and agriculture.

00:06:42.500 Saskatchewan is a province

00:06:43.440 that has been spending time in Washington

00:06:45.800 for over 15 years now.

00:06:47.740 I've been down here two to three times a year

00:06:50.880 for the last six, seven years.

00:06:53.260 And certainly, you know,

00:06:54.440 this mission with all of the premiers here

00:06:56.240 is the first time I've seen that.

00:06:57.740 We've seen five premiers,

00:06:59.760 I think was the largest amount,

00:07:00.880 a few years ago at the conclusion of USMCA.

00:07:02.860 So I think largely when you look,

00:07:05.080 you know, more globally at the mission

00:07:07.560 on behalf of Canadians collectively,

00:07:10.920 very much the engagement with policymakers

00:07:13.460 here in the US was very, very helpful

00:07:15.280 for, you know, the discussion that's going to go on

00:07:17.460 for, you know, a number of weeks

00:07:18.680 and maybe a few months now.

00:07:19.920 We come at these meetings with, you know,

00:07:22.460 a very different background

00:07:23.560 with respect to the industries

00:07:24.780 that we're engaging on

00:07:26.220 and the individual states

00:07:27.580 and representative and policymakers

00:07:29.140 that we may want to engage on.

00:07:30.680 So a number of premiers were down early summer,

00:07:32.960 maybe staying a day later

00:07:34.000 to engage in areas

00:07:35.100 that are specifically interest their province.

00:07:37.160 And then we had the one day

00:07:38.060 to engage collectively as Canadian premiers

00:07:41.260 with a number of folks as well.

00:07:43.220 You know, for instance,

00:07:44.360 you know, something that's very high

00:07:45.820 in the priority of Saskatchewan's economic growth

00:07:49.400 and our opportunity is, you know,

00:07:51.000 mining, energy and agriculture.

00:07:52.920 So we engaged with a number of folks

00:07:54.820 throughout the Midwest

00:07:55.660 that are, you know,

00:07:58.320 very much accessing Saskatchewan potash.

00:08:00.680 to grow their crops

00:08:01.800 and the ag producers

00:08:02.920 throughout the Corn Belt.

00:08:03.840 Chuck Grassley was an individual

00:08:05.140 that we had a, you know,

00:08:06.240 a very good sit down

00:08:07.080 and came to many points of agreement.

00:08:08.800 And we'll find our way, you know,

00:08:10.940 through this discussion over the next while.

00:08:13.540 He's a pretty big Republican, Grassley.

00:08:15.280 Grassley is very much a large Republican,

00:08:17.520 you know, representing Iowa

00:08:18.720 and a, you know, a strong voice.

00:08:20.820 Probably, I don't think probably,

00:08:22.580 I think he's the longest serving senator

00:08:24.220 or longest serving elected representative

00:08:27.700 in the place

00:08:28.660 and just a great guy to meet with

00:08:31.460 and a great representative

00:08:32.480 of his district and his state

00:08:33.960 and the U.S.

00:08:35.340 The Energy Committee,

00:08:36.500 we had met with a number of folks

00:08:37.940 on the Energy Committee,

00:08:40.960 Bob Lara,

00:08:41.620 as well as a number of other folks,

00:08:43.440 to, you know,

00:08:44.680 really discuss how we need to work together

00:08:48.080 to ensure that we're creating

00:08:49.340 this North American energy secure continent,

00:08:52.420 that continental energy security

00:08:54.080 that we desire

00:08:55.540 and how, you know,

00:08:56.520 the talk of tariffs

00:08:57.380 and barriers at the 49th parallel

00:09:00.140 or barriers to the industry in general

00:09:02.660 and the production of that energy

00:09:04.300 really aren't beneficial

00:09:05.240 for us achieving, you know,

00:09:07.120 that continental energy security.

00:09:08.620 One of the business leaders on this trip,

00:09:10.460 Tim Gitzel,

00:09:11.460 CEO of Cameco,

00:09:13.260 a major player in the nuclear industry,

00:09:15.540 an industry that could soon see a renaissance.

00:09:18.420 Saskatchewan, for those who don't know,

00:09:19.860 holds about 20% of the world's uranium deposits.

00:09:23.660 That's on top of their oil and gas industry

00:09:25.700 that, while not as big as Alberta's,

00:09:27.840 is significant enough.

00:09:29.540 Now, let me hammer home this point again.

00:09:32.160 The premiers individually held meetings

00:09:34.520 with important people,

00:09:35.540 aside from the group meetings.

00:09:37.240 Alberta premiers Daniel Smith

00:09:38.960 and Saskatchewan Scott Moe

00:09:40.500 both spoke with Interior Secretary Doug Burgum.

00:09:44.340 In his old job,

00:09:45.300 Burgum was the governor of North Dakota,

00:09:47.940 a state that shares the border

00:09:49.300 with both Saskatchewan and Manitoba,

00:09:51.660 also a big player in the oil and gas industry.

00:09:54.700 These are people that Burgum knew already.

00:09:57.240 It's an industry that he's going to oversee

00:09:59.080 in his new job,

00:10:00.220 and these are people

00:10:01.180 that have a relationship with him already.

00:10:03.760 Speaking by phone,

00:10:04.820 as she was trying to leave Washington,

00:10:06.560 but delayed by weather on Thursday,

00:10:08.800 Danielle Smith said that the American system,

00:10:11.460 part of the problem is,

00:10:12.780 it's incredibly different

00:10:14.060 in terms of trying to figure out

00:10:15.440 who to speak to.

00:10:16.280 I think the approach we have to take

00:10:18.140 is have as many relationships as possible

00:10:20.320 because we're seeing a president

00:10:22.280 who does have very clear views

00:10:24.660 and a worldview that he wants to put in place,

00:10:27.800 but he's open to being persuaded by an argument.

00:10:30.640 And so I think it is up to us

00:10:32.200 to identify those who are influencers on him,

00:10:35.320 make our best arguments,

00:10:36.260 and see if we can get to the outcome that we want,

00:10:39.720 which is a terror-free relationship

00:10:41.400 between Canada and the U.S.

00:10:42.760 So I think that's maybe part of the reason

00:10:44.600 that the systems are so different

00:10:46.760 and the approaches are so different.

00:10:48.260 It's just the nature of how they've split up

00:10:51.100 the centers of power

00:10:53.680 and the way their system of government operates.

00:10:57.120 In terms of the White House meeting,

00:10:58.960 what was the message that you heard back?

00:11:01.400 I know you delivered

00:11:02.660 and the other premiers delivered

00:11:04.440 on Canada's point,

00:11:06.680 but what did you hear back from the White House?

00:11:10.140 Well, we did hear from a couple of the senior officials

00:11:14.460 who are advisors to the president.

00:11:16.700 I mean, I think what I was encouraged by

00:11:18.780 is that the president was deep into discussions

00:11:22.420 on trying to resolve the Ukraine-Russia war

00:11:26.200 and they still made time to meet with the premiers.

00:11:30.040 And if it had been a different day,

00:11:31.240 we might have even been able

00:11:32.380 to meet with the president himself.

00:11:34.380 And so they wanted to convey

00:11:36.340 that it was important for us to be there.

00:11:38.640 We were glad that we were there.

00:11:40.960 I think they understand that the premiers

00:11:43.360 have authority over resource decision-making

00:11:47.160 and permitting for the most part

00:11:49.640 in their jurisdictions,

00:11:50.440 which is important

00:11:51.220 because we've got a strong story to tell

00:11:53.140 on energy resources,

00:11:54.620 whether it's oil and gas

00:11:56.180 or critical minerals or electricity

00:11:58.500 or any of those other critical components

00:12:01.360 that they need.

00:12:02.040 So that we wanted to convey.

00:12:04.800 We were trying to also get information

00:12:06.640 about what the issues are.

00:12:09.420 What are the trade irritants

00:12:11.580 that the president has?

00:12:13.080 And unfortunately,

00:12:14.000 we weren't able to get any more insight

00:12:16.240 than what we hear publicly.

00:12:17.640 Clearly, he's concerned

00:12:18.620 about the hollowing out

00:12:20.040 of his manufacturing base.

00:12:21.420 He's clearly very clear

00:12:23.200 that he clearly wants to maintain capacity

00:12:26.580 to develop a steel industry

00:12:29.580 and an aluminum industry

00:12:31.140 as critical components

00:12:32.680 to supporting national defense aspirations.

00:12:35.180 And we have to figure out

00:12:37.180 how we can put forward our argument

00:12:40.440 that we want to be partners

00:12:43.020 in North American energy security,

00:12:45.260 North American national security,

00:12:47.340 North American food security,

00:12:49.380 North American manufacturing prowess

00:12:51.840 and security.

00:12:52.920 And I think we've had a breakthrough

00:12:54.140 on some of those fronts,

00:12:56.180 but not all of them.

00:12:57.360 But I think that there's

00:12:58.240 a very similar argument.

00:12:59.580 Eventually, the premiers were able

00:13:01.440 to get a meeting with the White House.

00:13:03.280 Now, critics of the premiers

00:13:04.580 have dismissed this meeting

00:13:05.860 as the equivalent of,

00:13:07.880 well, chatting with the kitchen intern.

00:13:10.560 Despite the classist element

00:13:12.320 of dismissing the kitchen staff,

00:13:14.000 which no one should ever do,

00:13:15.720 as they say,

00:13:16.320 the army runs on beans and bullets.

00:13:18.020 No food means no army.

00:13:20.160 But I digress.

00:13:21.420 The main man that the premier met with

00:13:23.560 was James Blair,

00:13:24.540 the deputy chief of staff

00:13:25.800 in the White House,

00:13:26.820 who's in charge of policy

00:13:28.240 and legislative affairs.

00:13:30.220 Also joining the meeting

00:13:31.480 with Sergio Gore,

00:13:32.860 the man in charge

00:13:33.540 of White House personnel.

00:13:35.300 Now, if you don't understand

00:13:36.720 Trump world,

00:13:37.900 then you would dismiss

00:13:39.180 these two people

00:13:40.060 as premiers meeting

00:13:41.680 with nobodies.

00:13:42.940 If you understand Trump's orbit,

00:13:45.300 then this was a very good meeting.

00:13:47.280 We had a very constructive conversation.

00:13:49.880 We appreciate the Trump administration

00:13:51.700 facilitating this literally

00:13:53.820 in the last minute.

00:13:55.360 And we're just,

00:13:56.320 we're grateful.

00:13:56.960 We listened,

00:13:57.940 we communicated,

00:13:58.740 and we look forward

00:13:59.980 to further conversations.

00:14:01.760 That was Ontario's premier,

00:14:03.300 Doug Ford,

00:14:03.880 flanked by Quebec's

00:14:04.800 Francois Legault

00:14:05.720 and Saskatchewan's Scott Moe,

00:14:07.800 talking about the meeting.

00:14:09.300 Everything went well

00:14:10.260 until British Columbia's

00:14:11.540 David Eby

00:14:12.080 decided to break ranks

00:14:13.760 with every other premier

00:14:14.840 and not only talk about

00:14:16.660 who they met with,

00:14:17.940 which they agreed

00:14:18.580 not to talk about,

00:14:19.800 but also talk about

00:14:20.820 how the 51st state

00:14:22.060 was a non-starter.

00:14:23.580 That saw Blair reach out 0.99

00:14:25.080 on social media

00:14:25.940 because Eby broke protocol

00:14:27.580 for the meeting

00:14:28.200 to try and score

00:14:29.420 cheap political points

00:14:30.520 back home.

00:14:31.360 To say every other premier

00:14:32.880 in Canada was furious with him

00:14:34.500 might have been

00:14:35.440 an understatement.

00:14:36.660 They had just met

00:14:37.540 with the guy

00:14:38.120 who had helped Trump win

00:14:40.520 with low propensity voters.

00:14:42.760 James Blair was key

00:14:43.840 to Trump's victory.

00:14:45.240 He's now deputy chief of staff.

00:14:47.340 This is an important guy.

00:14:49.180 Sergio Gore,

00:14:50.000 for those who don't know,

00:14:51.080 is very tight with Trump.

00:14:52.960 Saying that these meetings

00:14:54.080 meant nothing

00:14:54.920 means you don't actually

00:14:56.500 understand Trump's world.

00:14:58.720 Now, beyond all of that,

00:15:00.180 in addition to the premiers,

00:15:01.620 there were business leaders

00:15:02.720 making the rounds

00:15:03.440 in Washington as well.

00:15:05.180 One of the big issues

00:15:06.080 discussed in terms of retaliation,

00:15:08.620 if we get to that point,

00:15:09.860 is the idea of tariffs

00:15:11.400 on, say, Kentucky bourbon

00:15:13.200 or, as Doug Ford has threatened,

00:15:15.700 taking American booze

00:15:16.740 off of the shelves

00:15:17.600 of Ontario's liquor stores

00:15:19.400 and not making them available

00:15:21.180 to bars and restaurants.

00:15:22.420 That's a position

00:15:23.380 that other premiers

00:15:24.300 have said they would follow.

00:15:26.080 Cal Bricker is the president

00:15:27.580 and CEO of Spirits Canada.

00:15:29.240 He was in Washington

00:15:30.220 for some of these meetings

00:15:31.760 and he says

00:15:32.580 it's actually not clear

00:15:34.160 who those sorts of measures

00:15:35.820 would hurt.

00:15:37.100 We actually sell

00:15:38.160 three times more

00:15:39.000 to the U.S.

00:15:39.720 than we bring in.

00:15:41.020 So it would be

00:15:41.600 a novel approach

00:15:43.480 to trade law

00:15:44.240 to retaliate against somebody

00:15:46.060 that you've actually

00:15:46.920 sent more product to

00:15:48.200 than you received.

00:15:48.920 The second thing

00:15:50.020 is that the supply chains

00:15:51.780 are so intertwined

00:15:52.760 that it's tough

00:15:54.140 to target

00:15:54.660 an American company

00:15:55.880 if you wanted to.

00:15:56.700 So, for example,

00:15:57.480 if you look at

00:15:58.120 a company like Diageo,

00:16:00.320 they own Crown Royal,

00:16:03.080 they own Bullet Bourbon,

00:16:04.360 they own Don Julio Tequila.

00:16:06.700 So who are you targeting

00:16:08.040 when you're talking

00:16:09.340 about launching

00:16:10.560 a tariff action?

00:16:12.020 And, frankly,

00:16:13.200 the provincial liquor boards

00:16:14.200 can't do that anyway.

00:16:15.100 It's the federal government

00:16:15.800 that charges tariffs.

00:16:17.580 The issue with the

00:16:18.220 provincial liquor boards

00:16:19.280 is that they're doing things

00:16:21.080 in a non-tariff sense.

00:16:22.520 For example,

00:16:23.040 delisting products,

00:16:24.020 not putting on the shelves,

00:16:25.400 not ordering them.

00:16:27.120 And it has a very,

00:16:28.900 very negative impact

00:16:29.860 on the jobs

00:16:31.080 and investment

00:16:31.620 and spirits in Ontario.

00:16:33.180 Bricker wasn't the only

00:16:34.100 business executive

00:16:35.040 along for the trip.

00:16:35.940 Goldie Heider

00:16:36.480 is the head

00:16:37.380 of the Business Council

00:16:38.360 of Canada,

00:16:39.440 the organization

00:16:40.260 representing

00:16:40.920 the biggest companies

00:16:41.820 in the country.

00:16:42.960 He said the Trump

00:16:43.800 administration

00:16:44.280 is looking at

00:16:45.300 a complete revamp

00:16:46.600 of the global

00:16:47.620 trading system

00:16:48.540 and that we're

00:16:49.300 just a small part

00:16:50.220 of that.

00:16:50.600 And perhaps

00:16:51.220 the message he heard

00:16:52.620 was we should calm down.

00:16:54.580 I would say

00:16:55.000 the pleasant surprise

00:16:56.020 for us

00:16:57.100 was the discussions

00:16:58.480 that we've had

00:16:59.240 with the USTR.

00:17:00.120 As you know,

00:17:01.100 the president

00:17:01.580 has put in place

00:17:02.380 an April 1st deadline

00:17:03.440 for the USTR

00:17:04.220 to provide a report.

00:17:05.200 And I guess up in Canada

00:17:05.980 we believe the report

00:17:06.880 is about us.

00:17:07.860 The reality is

00:17:08.520 it's about much more.

00:17:09.600 It's about global trade.

00:17:11.240 It's about looking at

00:17:12.080 China and other countries.

00:17:13.720 They really do want

00:17:14.460 to reorient

00:17:15.140 the global trading system

00:17:16.700 like that.

00:17:17.740 Yes, I think

00:17:18.540 that effort

00:17:19.340 will be underway

00:17:20.020 and as I said

00:17:20.980 I think we're reading

00:17:21.980 everything as if

00:17:22.720 it's applying to Canada.

00:17:23.820 We were very reassured

00:17:24.920 that while there are

00:17:26.500 ongoing irritants

00:17:27.500 some of which

00:17:27.980 have been through

00:17:28.900 decades of being irritants

00:17:30.960 that are still on the table

00:17:32.260 that everybody's hopeful

00:17:33.280 we can deal with,

00:17:34.360 there was a recognition

00:17:35.400 that A,

00:17:35.960 we have an agreement.

00:17:37.060 It's functioning,

00:17:37.880 the USMCA.

00:17:39.400 Putting tariffs in place

00:17:40.760 would effectively violate

00:17:41.880 that agreement

00:17:42.460 and to some extent

00:17:43.340 question whether

00:17:44.160 it's in existence anymore.

00:17:46.340 There is a process

00:17:47.580 by which we can get

00:17:48.440 back to the table

00:17:49.260 that we were most encouraged

00:17:50.500 that the people

00:17:51.520 who do the heavy lifting

00:17:52.480 and do the hard work

00:17:53.500 of trade agreements

00:17:54.460 are very much planning

00:17:55.660 on sitting down

00:17:56.980 and doing,

00:17:57.680 in their own words,

00:17:58.360 a review of the USMCA

00:18:00.100 which is exactly

00:18:00.840 what's called for

00:18:02.240 in 2026.

00:18:03.600 So that leaves

00:18:04.380 some reason for hope.

00:18:05.800 Well, hope is hard

00:18:06.640 to come by these days

00:18:07.840 and Trump's terror of threats

00:18:09.200 and, well,

00:18:10.500 they change by the day.

00:18:11.520 Even while I was

00:18:12.680 in Washington,

00:18:13.580 he signed a new

00:18:14.220 executive order

00:18:15.000 that was thought

00:18:16.180 to be about India

00:18:17.160 and the EU

00:18:18.060 and reciprocal tariffs

00:18:19.380 but then he added

00:18:20.760 in shots about Canada

00:18:21.880 and the digital services tax

00:18:23.760 the Trudeau government

00:18:24.540 brought in last year

00:18:25.520 that even the Biden admin

00:18:26.940 was against

00:18:28.160 and said would result

00:18:29.240 in tariffs.

00:18:29.920 Well,

00:18:30.760 that turned everything

00:18:31.740 on its head.

00:18:32.720 He continues to talk

00:18:33.760 about Canada

00:18:34.380 as a 51st state

00:18:35.680 while saying

00:18:36.780 we have nothing

00:18:37.820 that America wants.

00:18:39.340 He clearly wants us

00:18:40.580 and so everything

00:18:42.080 is basically off balance.

00:18:44.400 I'll say having spent

00:18:45.400 three days in Washington

00:18:46.540 that it was completely

00:18:47.840 worth the trip

00:18:48.500 for the premiers

00:18:49.100 and the business leaders

00:18:50.120 to make the jaunt down.

00:18:52.740 You get to understand

00:18:53.700 what people are saying

00:18:54.700 and what they think.

00:18:56.520 Manitoba premier

00:18:57.360 Wab Canu

00:18:58.040 said that this was

00:18:59.540 a charm offensive

00:19:00.280 and he's completely right.

00:19:02.140 He said it was about

00:19:02.900 the ability

00:19:03.620 to meet people,

00:19:05.500 to smile at them

00:19:06.380 as only Wab Canu can, 0.99

00:19:07.820 and then to make

00:19:09.140 that personal connection.

00:19:10.680 And I can tell you

00:19:11.280 having done business

00:19:12.280 in Washington

00:19:13.020 over the last 20 years,

00:19:14.320 they put a greater emphasis

00:19:15.920 on that personal meeting,

00:19:17.660 that connection

00:19:18.640 than we do in Canada.

00:19:20.100 So these meetings,

00:19:21.640 maybe they don't have

00:19:22.980 a short-term impact,

00:19:24.260 but they will have

00:19:24.860 a long-term one.

00:19:26.220 Now,

00:19:26.680 as for the other issue,

00:19:27.740 the one beyond tariffs,

00:19:28.800 the idea of us

00:19:29.440 becoming the 51st state,

00:19:31.860 it took some time

00:19:32.580 to reconnect

00:19:33.140 with the man

00:19:34.140 who was one of Trump's

00:19:35.260 top advisors

00:19:36.020 in his first term

00:19:37.020 to get a sense

00:19:38.180 of the American

00:19:39.040 president's thinking.

00:19:40.740 My chat with Steve Bannon

00:19:41.800 comes up

00:19:42.480 right after this break.

00:19:46.940 Did you lock

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00:19:48.340 Check.

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00:21:42.840 Steve Bannon

00:21:43.500 is an interesting,

00:21:44.940 if not controversial,

00:21:46.220 figure.

00:21:46.920 I first met the man

00:21:47.660 more than a decade ago.

00:21:48.960 He had come in

00:21:49.500 to help run

00:21:50.380 the Breitbart News

00:21:51.320 organization

00:21:52.100 after the passing

00:21:52.940 of founder,

00:21:54.260 the late,

00:21:54.620 great Andrew Breitbart,

00:21:55.900 the man I also

00:21:56.580 was able to get to know.

00:21:58.020 This was 2012.

00:21:59.440 It was the first

00:22:00.040 Obama administration,

00:22:01.480 long before Donald Trump

00:22:02.580 was even thinking

00:22:03.340 of running to be president.

00:22:04.880 I worked with Bannon

00:22:05.920 and Breitbart

00:22:06.580 on some projects.

00:22:07.880 I appeared on his radio show.

00:22:09.860 He appeared on my old

00:22:11.340 Sun News Network TV show.

00:22:13.600 But never did I think

00:22:14.680 this man would end up

00:22:15.620 in the White House

00:22:16.320 as the chief political strategist

00:22:18.020 to the American president.

00:22:19.500 But that's where Bannon

00:22:20.620 ended up.

00:22:21.540 He even developed

00:22:22.320 a kind of bestie relationship,

00:22:24.940 according to media reports anyway,

00:22:26.580 with Justin Trudeau's

00:22:27.860 old top advisor,

00:22:28.880 Jerry Butts,

00:22:29.660 as our two countries

00:22:30.960 were dealing with trade

00:22:31.960 and other issues.

00:22:33.460 Bannon isn't really part

00:22:34.880 of Trump's inner circle anymore,

00:22:36.160 but he is still

00:22:37.340 a major player

00:22:38.420 in the MAGA movement

00:22:40.140 and someone who understands

00:22:41.620 Trump thinking.

00:22:42.680 So I took a chance

00:22:43.760 to reach out,

00:22:45.000 reconnect with Bannon.

00:22:46.380 I dropped by his war room,

00:22:47.540 just stepped from

00:22:48.140 the U.S. Supreme Court

00:22:49.200 to ask him about

00:22:50.780 what Trump really means

00:22:52.260 with all this

00:22:53.600 51st state talk.

00:22:55.540 So, Steve,

00:22:56.700 what is the motivation

00:22:59.500 behind all of these

00:23:00.540 different actions

00:23:02.100 that Donald Trump

00:23:02.840 is taking?

00:23:03.480 Days of thunder?

00:23:04.900 Yeah, whether it's Canada

00:23:06.100 or Panama

00:23:06.820 or Greenland,

00:23:08.700 I keep hearing people say,

00:23:09.960 there's no relation,

00:23:11.160 it doesn't make any sense,

00:23:12.440 and I say,

00:23:13.200 well,

00:23:13.780 I don't get the

00:23:15.320 Canadian angle yet,

00:23:16.560 maybe you can explain it to me,

00:23:17.740 but I get a lot

00:23:18.420 of the other angles

00:23:19.100 because I look at it

00:23:19.860 and I see he's trying

00:23:20.900 to combat China.

00:23:22.360 Well, you look at,

00:23:23.020 just in that,

00:23:24.600 that's of a whole piece.

00:23:26.300 It makes total

00:23:27.820 geostrategic

00:23:28.740 and geoeconomic sense.

00:23:30.400 This ties to what's happened

00:23:31.760 the last 24 or 48 hours

00:23:33.480 in Europe

00:23:34.040 with Pete Hexas

00:23:35.340 and Scott Besson

00:23:37.400 over with NATO.

00:23:38.740 What President Trump

00:23:39.420 laid out

00:23:39.900 in what I call

00:23:41.040 the Panama to Greenland

00:23:42.020 is kind of

00:23:42.820 Alfred Mahan's

00:23:45.060 naval strategy

00:23:45.940 to say,

00:23:47.300 he's going to look

00:23:47.840 at hemispheric defense,

00:23:49.000 kind of Monroe Doctrine 2.0,

00:23:51.040 and that's going to be

00:23:51.760 from taking back

00:23:52.900 the Panama Canal

00:23:53.660 to make sure

00:23:54.200 the Chinese Navy

00:23:55.200 and the Russian Navy

00:23:55.940 can never hook up

00:23:56.840 in the Caribbean

00:23:57.960 all the way up

00:23:59.120 to Greenland.

00:24:00.420 And remember,

00:24:00.960 Greenland,

00:24:01.440 if you control Greenland

00:24:02.500 or are in partnership

00:24:03.320 with the Free Greenland

00:24:04.300 and have bases there

00:24:05.840 like we've had

00:24:06.640 in World War II,

00:24:08.380 there it was to keep

00:24:09.300 the sea lanes open.

00:24:10.660 Here it was to close

00:24:11.540 the sea lanes

00:24:12.360 against Russian 0.99

00:24:14.020 fast attack

00:24:14.840 and ballistic missile

00:24:15.660 submarines

00:24:16.100 coming out of the Arctic

00:24:17.200 out of both

00:24:18.320 Murmansk and Archangel.

00:24:20.080 If you control

00:24:20.860 that sea lane

00:24:21.560 between Greenland

00:24:22.260 and Iceland,

00:24:22.880 which the United States

00:24:23.640 will do,

00:24:24.560 and not just have

00:24:25.280 tracking Sona boys

00:24:26.200 but actually control

00:24:26.940 it with naval forces,

00:24:28.220 and you control

00:24:28.720 the Panama Canal,

00:24:30.260 you've essentially

00:24:31.180 hermetically sealed

00:24:32.540 the United States

00:24:34.040 from, you know,

00:24:35.580 from attack

00:24:36.380 by the Soviets,

00:24:37.100 by the Russians.

00:24:37.600 If you add

00:24:38.660 then Canada

00:24:40.200 geostrategically

00:24:41.560 because the new

00:24:42.940 great game

00:24:43.700 and the great game

00:24:44.360 people should know

00:24:44.900 was this strategic

00:24:46.080 contest in the 19th century

00:24:47.520 between the British Empire

00:24:48.740 and the Russian Empire

00:24:50.620 through Afghanistan

00:24:51.940 and Persia

00:24:52.720 for access

00:24:53.680 to warm water ports

00:24:54.920 and to access

00:24:55.920 to India,

00:24:57.020 which Britain

00:24:57.960 was trying to stop.

00:24:59.200 The new great game

00:25:00.020 of the 21st century

00:25:00.880 is going to be

00:25:01.200 the Arctic.

00:25:02.060 It's already

00:25:02.580 a great power struggle

00:25:03.580 between the Chinese 0.98

00:25:04.400 Communist Party

00:25:05.060 and the Russians

00:25:06.640 up there.

00:25:07.580 Canada's former 0.95

00:25:08.480 most secure border,

00:25:09.800 your northern provinces,

00:25:10.640 are now

00:25:11.160 your soft underbelly.

00:25:12.800 And so what

00:25:13.180 President Trump

00:25:13.680 is saying is that

00:25:14.620 if you look

00:25:15.080 at the entire picture,

00:25:16.600 everywhere from

00:25:17.240 the three island chains

00:25:18.240 in the Pacific,

00:25:19.380 that would just guarantee

00:25:20.360 that the Pacific

00:25:21.160 became a natural barrier

00:25:22.460 for Canada,

00:25:23.700 coupled with

00:25:24.380 what's happening

00:25:25.280 in the Arctic,

00:25:25.900 what the United States

00:25:26.600 is going to do,

00:25:27.260 coupled with Greenland

00:25:28.100 and its hemispheric

00:25:28.860 defense.

00:25:29.820 There's such a compelling

00:25:30.780 logic on both

00:25:32.080 geostrategically

00:25:33.140 and geoeconomically

00:25:34.360 when you look at

00:25:34.940 the combination

00:25:35.540 of the markets.

00:25:36.280 This is what

00:25:36.620 President Trump,

00:25:37.220 I think,

00:25:37.460 is talking about tariffs.

00:25:39.120 If you look at

00:25:39.660 particularly your

00:25:40.420 western provinces,

00:25:41.940 which your western

00:25:42.500 provinces,

00:25:43.720 for people in Canada,

00:25:44.960 the western provinces

00:25:45.760 of Canada

00:25:46.420 are not that much

00:25:48.660 different than

00:25:49.260 Montana,

00:25:49.900 Wyoming,

00:25:50.480 Colorado,

00:25:51.240 Oklahoma,

00:25:51.840 Texas.

00:25:52.320 It's that western

00:25:52.980 frontier mentality

00:25:54.060 with the same kind

00:25:55.300 of natural resources,

00:25:56.900 both agriculture

00:25:57.840 and natural resources

00:25:58.980 and oil and gas.

00:26:00.040 So there's so many

00:26:01.120 compelling logic.

00:26:02.000 And President Trump's

00:26:02.660 laying it out there.

00:26:03.560 Don't look at Canada

00:26:04.720 separate from Greenland

00:26:05.860 and from Panama

00:26:06.760 because it's of a

00:26:07.760 whole piece.

00:26:08.360 He's about

00:26:09.340 hemispheric defense.

00:26:11.140 And once you bother

00:26:11.860 think about it,

00:26:12.540 hang on,

00:26:13.520 but this is for the

00:26:14.240 Canadians too on your

00:26:15.160 defense budget and

00:26:15.940 particularly NATO.

00:26:17.100 He said today with

00:26:18.000 NATO that,

00:26:19.860 and this goes for

00:26:20.660 Canada,

00:26:21.120 he says,

00:26:21.400 hey,

00:26:21.540 no offense,

00:26:22.020 we bailed you out

00:26:22.620 in World War I,

00:26:23.740 we bailed you out

00:26:24.560 in World War II,

00:26:25.600 we bailed you out

00:26:26.300 in the Cold War,

00:26:27.460 that you're just

00:26:28.180 not a priority more.

00:26:29.080 And the Russian army

00:26:29.800 is kind of your

00:26:30.400 problem.

00:26:30.740 We'll still be there,

00:26:32.160 but it's not vital

00:26:33.100 national security

00:26:33.860 interests.

00:26:34.360 And the Canadian

00:26:34.820 people,

00:26:35.280 I think,

00:26:35.800 have to have

00:26:36.280 a deep conversation

00:26:38.460 with themselves

00:26:39.280 about the direction

00:26:40.660 of the 21st century.

00:26:42.040 I mean,

00:26:42.620 Canada's been a 0.92

00:26:43.320 tremendous ally

00:26:43.960 of the United States,

00:26:44.580 but they've been a

00:26:45.080 better ally of

00:26:45.880 Britain and Europe.

00:26:46.640 Look at the blood

00:26:47.320 sacrificed by the

00:26:48.360 Canadian people

00:26:48.840 in World War I.

00:26:50.260 Massive.

00:26:51.200 Massive.

00:26:51.600 Look at the bravery.

00:26:52.880 People never talk

00:26:53.700 about it,

00:26:54.060 but on D-Day,

00:26:54.800 look at the sacrifice

00:26:55.800 of the Canadian forces

00:26:57.080 at the tip of the

00:26:58.380 tip of the spear

00:26:59.060 on D-Day and then

00:27:00.060 going through Normandy

00:27:01.960 and the breakout

00:27:02.480 to Paris.

00:27:03.700 Tremendous sacrifice.

00:27:06.520 Look at everything

00:27:07.200 that happened early on

00:27:08.380 when the American

00:27:09.180 volunteers went up

00:27:09.940 to Canada to become

00:27:11.120 part of the Royal Air

00:27:12.000 Force to fight

00:27:12.680 the Nazis in the early

00:27:14.100 days.

00:27:14.520 Canada,

00:27:15.280 as much as the

00:27:16.220 United States,

00:27:16.880 has sacrificed more

00:27:17.860 for old Europe,

00:27:18.700 as Churchill said.

00:27:20.180 I think Churchill

00:27:20.760 actually said it in

00:27:21.760 Canada,

00:27:22.640 that the new world

00:27:23.900 was coming to the

00:27:24.480 defense of the old

00:27:25.120 world.

00:27:25.640 Well, look,

00:27:25.980 after doing it for

00:27:26.860 a century,

00:27:28.020 the new world's

00:27:28.660 saying,

00:27:28.960 look,

00:27:29.140 we have our own

00:27:30.000 strategic concerns,

00:27:31.060 particularly with the

00:27:31.580 Chinese Communist Party.

00:27:33.040 And please,

00:27:33.560 in Canada,

00:27:34.080 remember,

00:27:35.040 the greatest

00:27:35.560 vulnerability we have

00:27:36.760 now is the Arctic.

00:27:38.220 Okay?

00:27:38.560 That's where it all

00:27:39.280 comes together.

00:27:39.940 It's a great power

00:27:40.660 struggle.

00:27:41.780 And President Trump

00:27:42.900 is bound and determined

00:27:43.840 to secure the United

00:27:45.100 States from that.

00:27:46.120 And that's why I think

00:27:46.820 Canada is a central 0.62

00:27:47.860 part.

00:27:48.480 If you go back and

00:27:49.280 look at the economics

00:27:50.200 of both us as a

00:27:52.000 unified market,

00:27:52.840 geo-economically,

00:27:54.080 if you look at the

00:27:54.820 logic of us united

00:27:56.260 geo-strategically

00:27:57.420 in a hemispheric

00:27:58.640 defense,

00:27:59.460 the logic speaks for

00:28:00.480 itself.

00:28:00.860 I just think

00:28:01.680 it's now time

00:28:02.360 for the Canadian

00:28:03.040 people to start

00:28:04.100 to really think

00:28:05.240 through the 21st

00:28:06.740 century.

00:28:07.220 Because if you look

00:28:08.080 at Canadian

00:28:08.560 politics,

00:28:09.400 it's been so much

00:28:10.660 small ball over the

00:28:12.040 last couple of

00:28:12.560 decades.

00:28:13.040 Now,

00:28:13.700 huge questions

00:28:15.180 about the future

00:28:16.000 of the country

00:28:16.580 and the future

00:28:17.180 of the 21st

00:28:17.880 century are before

00:28:18.860 you.

00:28:19.460 President Trump

00:28:20.060 is not trolling

00:28:20.640 people on this.

00:28:21.320 I have people

00:28:21.820 call me all day

00:28:22.540 long.

00:28:23.220 Is President Trump

00:28:23.840 just trolling?

00:28:24.580 Is President Trump

00:28:25.140 just trolling Canadians?

00:28:25.920 Well, that's what it

00:28:26.200 seemed like at the

00:28:26.800 beginning.

00:28:27.140 It seemed like he

00:28:28.080 was poking Justin

00:28:28.880 Trudeau in the eye.

00:28:29.960 Although he refers to

00:28:32.060 Trudeau as Governor

00:28:32.840 Trudeau, he is not for

00:28:35.340 the Canadian people.

00:28:36.280 This is why I've

00:28:36.860 decided in a very busy

00:28:37.860 time to take this

00:28:38.940 interview because I've

00:28:40.120 such respect for you

00:28:41.540 and such respect for

00:28:42.460 your paper.

00:28:43.380 This is serious.

00:28:44.760 President Trump

00:28:45.240 could, I think of

00:28:46.000 everything we're

00:28:46.640 working on that

00:28:47.800 President Trump's

00:28:48.360 working on, I think

00:28:49.900 this hemispheric

00:28:50.640 defense, which is

00:28:52.440 Panama, it's also

00:28:53.380 Latin America with 0.98

00:28:54.640 Bolsonaro and with

00:28:55.720 Millet and getting

00:28:56.860 the Chinese Communist

00:28:57.540 Party out of the

00:28:58.260 Amazon, but this

00:28:59.600 part from Panama to

00:29:01.740 the security of all

00:29:03.300 of it with Greenland

00:29:04.220 and Canada and the

00:29:05.020 Arctic, coupled with

00:29:06.280 getting out 10 million

00:29:07.840 or 12 million illegal

00:29:08.920 alien invaders that 0.99

00:29:10.100 were able to come

00:29:10.700 through our country

00:29:11.200 through the southern

00:29:11.760 border, he is not

00:29:13.660 trolling the Canadians.

00:29:14.780 He's certainly not

00:29:15.500 trolling your prime

00:29:18.040 minister who he refers

00:29:19.260 to as your governor.

00:29:20.440 So the part that I

00:29:21.780 think a lot of

00:29:22.320 Canadians wouldn't get,

00:29:23.380 and first off, they're

00:29:24.060 just going to, people

00:29:25.000 will be angry, and 0.55

00:29:25.920 there's a very emotional

00:29:26.860 response, and Donald

00:29:29.000 Trump, by talking about

00:29:30.100 the 51st state and the

00:29:31.400 tariff issues, may

00:29:32.400 actually help re-elect

00:29:33.500 Trudeau's Liberal

00:29:34.300 Party with Mark Carney

00:29:35.600 as the new leader, but

00:29:36.660 the part that a lot of

00:29:37.840 Canadians would be 0.97

00:29:38.600 scratching their heads

00:29:39.360 at and saying, well,

00:29:40.540 that doesn't make any

00:29:41.260 sense, there's no

00:29:42.700 aggressive war with

00:29:44.820 China, there's no, 1.00

00:29:46.460 you know, nothing with

00:29:47.580 Russia, we don't have 1.00

00:29:48.220 to be worried, we're

00:29:49.040 past the point of

00:29:50.360 needing to be worried

00:29:51.060 about defense, is the

00:29:52.680 view of a lot of

00:29:53.400 people.

00:29:54.340 The view of anybody

00:29:55.200 that thinks that is

00:29:56.460 sound asleep, and let

00:29:57.400 me wake them up.

00:29:58.700 Number one, let's go

00:30:00.360 back to World War II,

00:30:01.440 of which, remember,

00:30:02.600 Canada has shed more

00:30:04.420 blood per capita than

00:30:06.300 probably any democracy

00:30:07.620 in the West in pursuit

00:30:10.240 of freedom, okay?

00:30:12.240 The bravery and

00:30:13.140 courage to Canadian

00:30:13.740 people can't be

00:30:14.420 questioned, it's

00:30:15.020 unbelievable what you

00:30:15.900 guys have done, but I

00:30:17.180 think now you've got to

00:30:17.860 think about what was

00:30:19.300 that all for?

00:30:20.140 If you go back to

00:30:21.580 World War II, if we're

00:30:23.100 looking at the same

00:30:23.600 place like in 1939 after

00:30:25.280 the invasion of Poland

00:30:26.060 where the war really

00:30:26.820 actually kind of got

00:30:27.840 going, not the preamble

00:30:30.200 to it, which was a long

00:30:31.360 lead up.

00:30:33.160 There were not that many

00:30:34.360 casualties even through

00:30:35.760 the fall of France.

00:30:37.520 Look what's happened in

00:30:38.320 Ukraine in three years,

00:30:39.260 and we've been adamantly

00:30:40.120 opposed to any

00:30:41.000 involvement in Ukraine, it 0.94

00:30:41.960 was ridiculous. 0.93

00:30:42.520 As President Trump 0.78

00:30:43.780 reiterated today, 1.5

00:30:46.580 million people have

00:30:47.860 either been slaughtered

00:30:48.980 or wounded in this war,

00:30:50.460 a million Ukrainians, and

00:30:52.320 500, 750,000 Russian

00:30:54.200 troops.

00:30:56.240 Ukraine looks like 0.97

00:30:57.200 Kiev.

00:30:58.200 If you look at the

00:30:58.900 carnage that's going on,

00:31:00.180 you throw in the Middle 0.89

00:31:00.900 East, it's far greater 0.99

00:31:02.100 than the early years of

00:31:03.260 the Second World War, and

00:31:04.480 we saw how that ended.

00:31:06.080 If you also look at the

00:31:07.280 Chinese Communist Party,

00:31:08.600 unrestricted warfare, the

00:31:09.720 Chinese Communist Party

00:31:10.540 has been at war with the

00:31:11.720 United States since May

00:31:12.660 of 1989.

00:31:13.980 She said it, the

00:31:15.160 People's War. 0.83

00:31:16.420 They're doing it through

00:31:17.260 cyber, they're doing it

00:31:18.380 through political warfare,

00:31:19.440 they're doing it through

00:31:19.900 information warfare,

00:31:21.000 they're doing it through

00:31:21.800 political interference in

00:31:22.600 Canada?

00:31:23.000 Canada, you guys are much

00:31:24.260 far, look, as badly as

00:31:25.520 we're infiltrated, Canada's 0.97

00:31:27.320 actually worse, and

00:31:28.580 Trudeau has exacerbated

00:31:29.800 this.

00:31:30.560 This is something the

00:31:31.360 Canadian people have got 0.98

00:31:32.000 to wake up to.

00:31:32.920 You're losing your

00:31:33.740 sovereignty as you speak.

00:31:34.880 That's why your crisis

00:31:35.840 is on your northern

00:31:36.500 border.

00:31:37.560 The irony in Canada,

00:31:39.660 given everything through

00:31:40.880 valor of arms and

00:31:42.080 courage that you've

00:31:42.860 defended, now what was

00:31:44.640 always strategically your

00:31:46.320 greatest, the thing you

00:31:47.920 had greatest, which was

00:31:48.680 your northern border and

00:31:49.780 kind of the Arctic, now

00:31:51.700 becomes your greatest

00:31:52.440 exposure to actual losing

00:31:54.240 territorial integrity and

00:31:55.540 sovereignty, the Chinese

00:31:56.500 Communist Party, which has

00:31:57.460 already infiltrated Canada.

00:31:59.280 Look at Huawei, look at

00:32:00.160 all the situations in

00:32:01.180 Canada.

00:32:02.040 They're at war just

00:32:02.800 because, remember, in

00:32:03.960 Chinese Communist Party

00:32:04.900 doctrine, if they have to

00:32:06.440 start shooting, like Sun

00:32:07.280 Tzu, if they have to start

00:32:08.200 shooting, they think the

00:32:09.700 kinetic part, which has

00:32:11.060 already started in Europe

00:32:12.060 and Ukraine, the kinetic

00:32:13.160 part of the war is where

00:32:14.860 they don't want to take on

00:32:16.420 the foreign devils, right? 0.99

00:32:17.600 Because the foreign devils 1.00

00:32:18.400 know how to man up and 0.99

00:32:19.660 know how to fight.

00:32:20.680 What they want to do is

00:32:21.600 unrestricted warfare is

00:32:22.860 defeat the West even before 0.86

00:32:24.640 any guns are fired, and

00:32:25.640 they're quite far advanced in

00:32:27.500 the United States, and I

00:32:28.600 would argue they're farther

00:32:29.460 advanced than Canada.

00:32:30.780 So don't, people sit there

00:32:31.980 and go, we're not really

00:32:32.760 at war.

00:32:33.420 That's like people in Europe 0.97

00:32:34.700 in 1930, in the summer of

00:32:37.040 1939, sitting there going,

00:32:38.620 you know, we're actually

00:32:39.880 not at war, it's a

00:32:40.660 beautiful summer here, and

00:32:42.220 the clouds of war were all

00:32:44.380 over them, they just

00:32:45.020 couldn't see over the

00:32:45.700 horizon.

00:32:46.920 It was around 2010, I

00:32:48.440 think it was President

00:32:49.200 Hu back then, was coming

00:32:51.380 to Canada.

00:32:52.260 He was going to visit then

00:32:54.280 Prime Minister Stephen

00:32:55.080 Harper.

00:32:56.500 Official visit, things had

00:32:57.860 not changed, even the

00:32:58.960 bipartisan consensus in

00:33:00.980 Washington still hadn't

00:33:02.020 changed towards China.

00:33:03.420 It has now, and it has in

00:33:04.740 Canada.

00:33:05.260 Well, maybe not for

00:33:06.460 Trudeau's liberals, but I

00:33:08.000 remember reading a piece

00:33:09.340 where Hu said, before he

00:33:11.560 left, I mean, this was

00:33:12.460 clearly a planted message to

00:33:14.340 send to Canada as he was 0.98

00:33:16.640 coming for a visit, that

00:33:17.520 they view themselves as an

00:33:18.920 Arctic nation, and they

00:33:20.500 believe that they get the

00:33:21.680 resources in the Arctic.

00:33:23.380 They have a very different

00:33:24.440 vision of the future of the

00:33:26.180 Arctic than Canada or the

00:33:28.000 United States does, and it 0.92

00:33:29.640 includes them pillaging it.

00:33:31.460 It includes them controlling

00:33:32.560 it and controlling the

00:33:33.620 territory of northern Canada.

00:33:35.040 You're absolutely correct.

00:33:37.360 This is not just something

00:33:38.480 that came to President

00:33:39.180 Trump out of nowhere.

00:33:40.060 This is the aggressiveness of

00:33:41.920 the Chinese Communist Party

00:33:43.040 in the Arctic, geostrategically

00:33:45.220 and for resources.

00:33:46.900 And as a wake-up call, when

00:33:49.100 they say the Arctic, they

00:33:50.220 just don't mean the polar

00:33:51.120 cap.

00:33:52.040 They mean coming down and

00:33:53.420 you're going to lose, it's

00:33:54.560 just quite simple, your

00:33:55.980 dominion nation.

00:33:57.360 But in your alliance in the

00:33:58.800 dominion, is NATO going to

00:34:00.040 come and help you?

00:34:00.740 Is NATO that won't pay for

00:34:01.840 themselves?

00:34:02.560 Are they going to come and

00:34:03.380 help you in the Arctic?

00:34:04.100 The territorial integrity and

00:34:06.280 sovereignty of Canada is

00:34:08.520 going to be tested and lost

00:34:10.180 in the northern provinces and

00:34:13.080 around Canada.

00:34:13.880 And he said it on a state

00:34:14.980 visit.

00:34:15.660 This was 14 years ago.

00:34:17.600 And they've been laboring

00:34:18.400 away long before then, but

00:34:20.000 they've been laboring away

00:34:20.960 since then.

00:34:23.400 And they're a major Arctic

00:34:24.460 power.

00:34:25.240 So you mentioned Panama,

00:34:29.000 Greenland, Canada.

00:34:30.800 Canada, don't separate them

00:34:32.160 out.

00:34:34.100 I was just here covering all

00:34:35.900 the provincial premiers going

00:34:37.140 into meetings at the White

00:34:38.160 House, going into meetings

00:34:39.140 with officials, talked to

00:34:41.920 business leaders who were in

00:34:43.120 meetings and all those as

00:34:44.360 well.

00:34:44.540 They said defense was raised,

00:34:46.680 the border was raised,

00:34:48.080 fentanyl was raised.

00:34:48.920 No one raised the 51st state

00:34:50.540 idea.

00:34:51.680 So does President Trump

00:34:54.000 believe that Canada does need

00:34:55.400 to become a 51st state or just

00:34:56.840 grow up and act like we used

00:34:59.280 to do?

00:35:03.580 President Trump, look, in a

00:35:06.740 wide range of verticals that

00:35:09.420 he's going down every day and

00:35:10.700 dropping thunderbolts in the

00:35:12.140 days of thunder, where he

00:35:14.440 spends his time and what he

00:35:15.800 talks about, people should

00:35:16.960 take as a papal bull because

00:35:20.000 it's opportunity costs.

00:35:21.120 He could talk about other

00:35:22.100 things.

00:35:23.280 What is he doing today?

00:35:25.080 Today, he's not only meeting

00:35:26.660 Modi of India, who he's very

00:35:29.260 close to, but he's also signing

00:35:30.500 the tariffs on reciprocity.

00:35:31.840 They do not.

00:35:33.140 That's not for Canada.

00:35:33.960 It's not for Canada.

00:35:35.100 That's for India. 1.00

00:35:35.560 It's not Canada. 0.61

00:35:36.520 But you can see in his overall

00:35:38.260 economic model for the United

00:35:39.660 States, revenues from outside

00:35:41.560 are going to come and lessen the

00:35:43.440 deficits we have here because

00:35:45.060 he believes this is a premier

00:35:46.300 market.

00:35:47.080 He knows it's a premium market.

00:35:49.060 So you have to pay just like you

00:35:50.420 would buy a skybox at a sporting

00:35:51.920 event or get a front row ticket at

00:35:54.040 a concert.

00:35:54.720 You're going to pay a premium.

00:35:56.300 And what he's saying is that, hey,

00:35:57.380 if you give tariffs on a lot of

00:35:58.500 this, I think, is aimed specifically

00:35:59.900 in India.

00:36:00.840 That's why it's so interesting he's

00:36:01.880 doing it on this day.

00:36:03.100 But he spends his time, and

00:36:05.220 particularly when he's communicating

00:36:06.720 either the true social, what he's

00:36:08.040 talking about, I think of

00:36:09.860 everything he's working on.

00:36:11.820 I tell people, I think the

00:36:12.880 hemispheric defense, because it

00:36:14.320 also underpins his new business

00:36:16.940 model for the United States, which

00:36:18.340 we are in a very tough financial

00:36:19.780 situation.

00:36:20.980 I tell people, I don't know if he's

00:36:22.680 got a higher priority than

00:36:23.980 hemispheric defense.

00:36:25.020 But does that necessarily mean, I

00:36:29.100 mean, his latest word to describe it

00:36:30.920 as absorbing Canada, does that mean

00:36:33.140 the United States has to absorb

00:36:35.680 Canada?

00:36:35.980 Or do you work together?

00:36:37.960 The form of that is to be

00:36:39.880 determined.

00:36:40.400 Remember, President Trump is a

00:36:41.700 master dealmaker.

00:36:43.260 But I do think, just like he's making

00:36:45.800 a deal now about Ukraine and getting

00:36:48.240 that war done, he's doing a deal in

00:36:50.320 the Middle East to get that done.

00:36:51.500 And he's a deal guy.

00:36:53.700 He's a deal guy.

00:36:55.480 And he has talked about Canada as

00:36:57.200 much as he's talked about the Middle

00:36:58.420 East, probably more lately than he's

00:37:01.080 talked about Ukraine.

00:37:02.080 More.

00:37:02.980 More.

00:37:03.160 I tell folks, okay, I say, see where

00:37:06.080 he spends his time.

00:37:07.660 See what his default position when he's

00:37:10.100 got some free time.

00:37:11.820 This thing about Greenland, Panama, and

00:37:14.380 you have to look at it whole cloth.

00:37:16.320 This is about hemispheric defense and

00:37:18.380 what this market means to the world

00:37:20.460 and what this market means to the

00:37:21.680 citizens in this market.

00:37:23.820 So, he's obsessed with this issue of

00:37:27.360 Canada.

00:37:28.380 Now, I think there will be, you know,

00:37:30.540 what form it takes, I don't speak for

00:37:32.080 the president.

00:37:33.280 That's the president.

00:37:34.140 And he's got ideas about how he wants

00:37:36.420 to see things evolve.

00:37:38.580 You know, I would talk to, you know,

00:37:40.060 but I believe that leaders in Canada,

00:37:42.140 I think he is waiting for whatever

00:37:43.620 plays out for the new government.

00:37:45.020 I do believe they're going to have

00:37:46.580 serious talks.

00:37:47.860 Now, the people around him talking

00:37:50.560 about defense and things like that,

00:37:51.760 I think it's fantastic.

00:37:53.320 But don't doubt for a second that the

00:37:56.140 man himself is, quite frankly, very

00:37:58.540 obsessed with this.

00:37:59.320 And if you look at the strategy and the

00:38:02.440 economics of it, it's so compelling.

00:38:04.960 He's not going to get off this.

00:38:06.220 He's not going to, he's going to get

00:38:07.620 engaged with whoever your government is.

00:38:10.020 And there will be a process going

00:38:11.500 forward.

00:38:11.760 Now, what's the ultimate outcome of

00:38:12.980 that process?

00:38:14.080 That's, that's, that's not my line

00:38:16.140 of country.

00:38:17.180 So, for the people you said, don't

00:38:19.260 think that he's trolling.

00:38:20.500 So, for example, people still think

00:38:21.680 that this is him trying to get under

00:38:24.560 Trudeau's skin or him just trying to

00:38:27.120 set out a negotiating position.

00:38:29.300 This is about more than a

00:38:30.440 negotiation, you say.

00:38:31.180 Exactly.

00:38:31.740 I think this, he has such respect,

00:38:34.040 you know, his partners in Canada, he

00:38:35.300 has such respect.

00:38:35.880 Plus, President Trump is a student of

00:38:37.600 military history.

00:38:38.900 For those of us that are students of

00:38:40.240 military history, the valor and

00:38:41.980 heroism of the Canadians, particularly

00:38:44.340 in World War I and World War II, are

00:38:45.760 really astronomical.

00:38:47.200 I just think that there's got to be

00:38:48.900 my strongest recommendation.

00:38:50.940 I say this to all my friends and

00:38:52.060 people during the inauguration, a lot

00:38:54.120 of people from Western provinces,

00:38:55.500 business people and people in

00:38:56.820 government came and actually sat where

00:38:58.480 you're seeing today, or I hosted them

00:39:00.440 upstairs.

00:39:01.520 And I just tell them, I said, you

00:39:03.680 should begin a national conversation

00:39:05.660 about this.

00:39:06.560 This is the time that Canada should

00:39:08.120 really talk about the 21st century.

00:39:10.220 And where the comment of the

00:39:13.040 premier of president of China didn't

00:39:16.620 get a lot of play back in 2010, you

00:39:19.040 should revisit that.

00:39:19.900 And that should be a big part of the

00:39:20.840 national discussion.

00:39:21.680 Look, clearly, the Canadian people have

00:39:23.780 to make up their mind about what they

00:39:25.040 want to do and where they want to go and

00:39:26.560 who they want to be affiliated with.

00:39:27.940 But I think that conversation, that

00:39:29.900 those discussions and that debate

00:39:31.520 should commence.

00:39:32.640 It might be having the reverse

00:39:35.200 outcome of what he wanted, because

00:39:38.800 conservative leader Pierre Polyevre was

00:39:40.760 looking like he was going to form the

00:39:42.180 next government.

00:39:43.320 Now, anger over this has a Mark Carney-led

00:39:46.180 liberal government tied or leading.

00:39:49.900 And you could end up with a very left-wing

00:39:52.520 environmental zealot who will win by

00:39:56.240 campaigning against anything.

00:39:57.640 A very left-wing environmental zealot like

00:40:01.360 the government you've had will only lead

00:40:03.540 Canada more rapidly to the edge of the

00:40:06.860 abyss, right?

00:40:08.100 These people are radicals.

00:40:09.740 They have these bizarre economic

00:40:11.620 theories.

00:40:12.180 He wants a carbon tariff on anything

00:40:14.380 that comes from a country that doesn't 1.00

00:40:15.580 have it.

00:40:16.060 What would the reaction be in Washington

00:40:18.100 to Canada saying, if your climate

00:40:19.960 plan's not good enough and the American

00:40:23.040 one would not be good enough for Mark

00:40:24.760 Carney, what would the reaction be to

00:40:26.720 Canada putting a carbon tariff on

00:40:28.500 every import that we have from you?

00:40:32.320 I think it would be a complete

00:40:34.440 rethinking here in the country about

00:40:36.660 what our relationship is with Canada.

00:40:38.460 I think that if you did that, you would

00:40:40.560 essentially say that we're a hostile

00:40:43.400 power.

00:40:44.120 I think it would be reviewed by the

00:40:45.940 American people as that.

00:40:46.940 I think it would be reviewed by people

00:40:48.800 in Washington as that.

00:40:49.720 And I think it would be reviewed by

00:40:50.900 President Trump as that.

00:40:52.720 What should we be watching for in the

00:40:56.320 next couple of weeks?

00:40:58.500 Number one, I think just continue to

00:41:00.120 watch President Trump.

00:41:01.000 And one thing, it just, he's not

00:41:03.100 trolling.

00:41:04.240 And this is why I think when he talks

00:41:05.680 about this, he talks about the

00:41:06.740 geoeconomics, he talks about the

00:41:08.200 geostrategic nature of it, is you

00:41:10.920 should spend time understanding what

00:41:12.560 it means about Panama to Greenland,

00:41:14.900 what it means about the real threat to

00:41:16.860 the Canadian people, what it means

00:41:18.140 about, this is a naval strategy.

00:41:20.020 This is essentially take the Western

00:41:21.320 Hemisphere, which is an island.

00:41:22.760 It's a relatively small island off of

00:41:25.340 the Eurasian landmass, which is the

00:41:28.000 main, if you look at Earth's globe,

00:41:30.480 you have a massive landmass, Eurasia

00:41:34.540 and with Africa.

00:41:35.700 Then you have a relatively small

00:41:37.140 compared to that island off that, that

00:41:38.900 is the Western Hemisphere.

00:41:40.260 You have a Pacific Ocean that is, the

00:41:42.520 Pacific is almost like a huge ocean

00:41:44.480 desert, okay?

00:41:46.180 What the president is proposing is

00:41:48.980 really a naval strategy of the three

00:41:51.400 island chains in the Pacific, with the

00:41:53.460 Pacific Ocean also protecting us, and

00:41:56.180 Atlantic Ocean, where the United

00:41:57.900 States Navy and potentially the

00:41:59.620 Canadian Navy basically shut in the

00:42:02.700 Russian fast attack and ballistic

00:42:04.140 missile submarines in the Arctic, or

00:42:06.200 that we can follow them wherever they

00:42:07.600 go.

00:42:08.260 We've controlled the Panama Canal, so

00:42:09.960 there's no possibility of the Chinese 1.00

00:42:11.520 Navy, which is huge, teaming up with

00:42:13.360 the Russian Navy in the Caribbean.

00:42:14.980 You've essentially sealed off the

00:42:18.660 hemisphere of North America, right?

00:42:21.660 And so, hemispheric defense.

00:42:22.980 Then you look at what President Trump's

00:42:24.140 talking about in an Iron Dome with some

00:42:25.540 sort of anti-ballistic missile sort of

00:42:28.340 apparatus, of which Canada would

00:42:30.160 participate in.

00:42:31.700 It's pretty, you, unlike the sacrifice

00:42:35.920 we had in the 20th century, which did

00:42:38.580 not, remember, it did not save us from

00:42:41.220 the problems in Europe.

00:42:42.160 We then had to go back and win the Cold

00:42:43.720 War, and quite frankly, they've come back 1.00

00:42:45.720 in Ukraine, and so Europe as a cockpit

00:42:48.980 of these conflicts is not going to go

00:42:52.540 away, but that's a European problem, and

00:42:54.560 the Russian army is a European problem.

00:42:56.280 It's not an American, it's not a 1.00

00:42:57.700 Canadian problem. 0.84

00:42:58.660 I think what the Canadian people would

00:43:00.540 do is, number one, take this seriously,

00:43:03.440 follow what President Trump's saying, and

00:43:05.580 I think get it on your national agenda

00:43:07.080 and start having, you know, talk shows

00:43:09.120 and conferences.

00:43:09.820 People ought to be debating this.

00:43:11.400 All right, Steve Bannon, thanks so much.

00:43:12.820 Thank you, sir.

00:43:13.760 Appreciate you.

00:43:14.280 I hope this episode has given you some

00:43:16.780 insight into how Canada-US relations are

00:43:19.380 going these days, into how the Americans

00:43:21.700 are viewing us.

00:43:22.780 There's so much more to say than we could

00:43:24.320 possibly fit into one podcast.

00:43:27.520 One of the keys to understanding, though,

00:43:29.080 is to listen to the other side, even when

00:43:31.020 you don't agree with them.

00:43:32.420 It lets you understand where they're coming

00:43:34.380 from and then develop a strategy, a

00:43:37.040 response.

00:43:38.360 Hopefully, Canadian leaders are doing that.

00:43:40.820 I'm sure that we'll be talking about this

00:43:42.320 issue in the days to come.

00:43:43.720 And there will be more podcasts on these issues.

00:43:48.820 Full Comment is a post-media podcast.

00:43:51.320 My name's Brian Lilly, your host.

00:43:53.200 This episode was produced by Andre Proulx.

00:43:55.500 Theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:43:57.260 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:43:59.800 You can subscribe to Full Comment on Apple Podcasts,

00:44:02.760 Google, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts.

00:44:05.620 Remember to leave us a review.

00:44:07.620 Tell your friends about us.

00:44:09.140 Thanks for listening.

00:44:09.820 Until next time, I'm Brian Lilly.

Full Comment - February 17, 2025

Here in Washington, the Trump vs. Canada reality isn’t what we think

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