Full Comment - How Canada turned itself into a fentanyl playground

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00:01:29.800 Fentanyl, it is a word, it is an issue that is front and centre right now,

00:01:39.380 thanks to a certain man named Donald J. Trump,

00:01:42.320 the occupant of the White House in Washington, D.C.

00:01:45.060 But fentanyl has been a problem in Canada for a long time.

00:01:49.380 In fact, you look at any major city, even smaller cities,

00:01:52.660 smaller communities across the country,

00:01:54.960 the crime that you see, the homelessness that you see,

00:01:57.200 the homeless encampments, all of this is related in one way or another to fentanyl,

00:02:01.980 a drug that started showing up in a big way around 2016,

00:02:06.460 spread across the country.

00:02:08.060 More than 49,000 people have died of overdoses from this drug.

00:02:12.140 Hello and welcome to the Full Comment Podcast,

00:02:14.160 and today we're going to be talking about how we deal with fentanyl within Canada.

00:02:18.880 Trump has highlighted the issue, he's gotten us talking about it,

00:02:22.200 but how do we solve the problem in our own country for our own people?

00:02:27.880 Marshall Smith is the former Chief of Staff to Alberta Premier Daniel Smith.

00:02:32.280 He's also someone who dealt with addiction himself and turned his life around.

00:02:36.460 The Alberta model, which doesn't include giving addicts free opioids,

00:02:41.400 has been focused on addiction treatment, on full recovery,

00:02:45.980 and it's showing good results.

00:02:47.340 But this is about more than just addiction treatment.

00:02:50.860 This is a police issue.

00:02:52.020 This is a crime issue.

00:02:53.280 So how do we solve this?

00:02:55.480 How do we get the government, wherever we live, working properly for us?

00:03:00.220 That's why I wanted to reach out to Marshall Smith.

00:03:02.740 So Marshall, let me just jump in off the top.

00:03:05.660 Why did it take Donald Trump talking about fentanyl on the Canadian border

00:03:10.060 to get us to realize how bad of a problem this is in Canada?

00:03:14.580 We'll deal with the border issue in a moment,

00:03:16.280 but within our own communities, this has been a devastating crisis.

00:03:21.840 Well, look, Brian, it's great to be here,

00:03:23.600 and I appreciate the opportunity to talk about this.

00:03:26.660 I think you're right.

00:03:27.460 I think that often, just like with addiction itself,

00:03:31.520 it takes some sort of catalyzing event to spur on change,

00:03:37.060 and that is certainly what we've seen happen

00:03:39.720 in and around the pressure that Canada is now under

00:03:43.180 to deal with the fentanyl and addiction crisis.

00:03:46.940 And I think that the answer to your direct question is,

00:03:49.780 why did it take that?

00:03:51.060 Is it, A, it's the nature of the addicted system.

00:03:55.040 It will continue unabated until something acts on it

00:03:59.840 that is very powerful to make it change its course.

00:04:03.740 And B, it's about leadership, right?

00:04:06.220 We have not had the type of leadership on this file in Canada,

00:04:13.320 with, of course, I would say the exception of Alberta,

00:04:16.660 to plan and execute on major systemic change.

00:04:23.620 That's not to say, and I want to be really clear about this,

00:04:26.520 that's not to say that people aren't doing anything about it.

00:04:29.460 It's not to say that there aren't pockets of good work.

00:04:31.920 And it's not to say that, you know,

00:04:34.420 premiers across the country don't rank this as a top priority for them.

00:04:41.740 I just think that many of them don't know how to lead

00:04:45.520 in an environment of making this kind of change.

00:04:48.460 You look at something like the opioid deaths in British Columbia,

00:04:54.820 and just because they're always off the top of my head,

00:04:56.880 I look at the coroner's office numbers monthly.

00:05:02.060 And you go back a decade, 2014,

00:05:06.480 there were, I believe the number is 374 opioid deaths in 2014.

00:05:12.620 And it goes up a little bit in 15 and 16.

00:05:15.880 And then that's when fentanyl really kicks in as the preferred opioid.

00:05:21.340 My mistake, I just pulled the numbers up.

00:05:22.900 It's 370.

00:05:25.820 It, the high was 2023 with 2,578.

00:05:31.680 Last year, well, there was a big drop to only 2,253.

00:05:35.600 That's just British Columbia.

00:05:37.960 Alberta's been heavily hit.

00:05:39.380 Ontario's been heavily hit.

00:05:40.660 And it slowly started to move out to the other provinces as well.

00:05:44.800 This is something that we should have been dealing with

00:05:49.040 in terms of trying to get a handle on this drug

00:05:53.160 and its nasty impacts within our community,

00:05:55.480 from overdose deaths to rising gun crime rates

00:05:58.920 to all the other ills that go with it.

00:06:02.100 And it seemed like for the longest time,

00:06:04.780 the only acceptable path was the one that you

00:06:09.360 and Premier Smith rejected in Alberta.

00:06:12.580 The only acceptable path was give them more drugs.

00:06:16.160 Right, right, right.

00:06:19.140 Look, this is a conversation about leadership.

00:06:23.680 And, you know, I've spent,

00:06:24.960 since I retired from public service,

00:06:27.640 have spent, you know, a lot of time

00:06:29.640 forming my thoughts on what it was

00:06:32.140 that I wanted to talk to leaders in the country

00:06:34.200 about on this issue.

00:06:35.740 And, of course, we can spend forever

00:06:38.540 debating the merits of, you know,

00:06:41.260 of this program versus that program.

00:06:43.580 And I'm happy to do that.

00:06:45.180 But I think the first conversation that we need to have

00:06:47.860 is, you know,

00:06:49.220 what does taking this seriously look like?

00:06:52.260 And I've had many conversations with Premiers

00:06:56.580 from coast to coast,

00:06:58.280 many in the middle of the night,

00:06:59.940 you know, as they sort of call around for,

00:07:02.480 you know, bits of advice.

00:07:05.300 And I've often said to them,

00:07:07.280 you know,

00:07:07.820 you're not taking this seriously.

00:07:09.860 And they seem offended

00:07:11.200 when I say that.

00:07:13.280 They seem really taken aback.

00:07:14.860 But the reality is

00:07:17.200 when a government in Canada

00:07:20.120 wants to show the public,

00:07:24.840 and not just for show,

00:07:26.320 but in reality,

00:07:28.160 that they're taking an issue seriously,

00:07:31.740 there's a couple of things that they do, right?

00:07:35.280 First of all,

00:07:35.940 they put themselves in charge.

00:07:38.700 They form a committee of cabinet.

00:07:41.740 They say this is a cross-government initiative.

00:07:44.860 We're going to make decisions in this body.

00:07:49.000 We're going to put the bureaucrats

00:07:50.760 around the ministers at the table.

00:07:53.280 We're going to give them direction.

00:07:55.600 There's going to be a record of decision.

00:07:57.560 They're going to execute,

00:07:58.740 and we're going to hold them accountable,

00:08:00.000 and we're going to track the outcomes,

00:08:02.560 and we're going to have a vision.

00:08:05.020 That's what taking it seriously looks like.

00:08:09.040 What I've seen,

00:08:10.540 and this is from, you know,

00:08:11.980 observing the Ford government closely here in Ontario,

00:08:14.600 but also looking at what other governments have done,

00:08:16.980 it seems like the harm reduction advocates

00:08:20.280 had really taken hold of the agenda,

00:08:25.660 and within the bureaucracies,

00:08:28.940 you know, I've been told there was pushback.

00:08:31.240 I mean, the Ford government recently decided

00:08:32.900 to close consumption sites,

00:08:35.920 which were also doubling,

00:08:37.620 thanks to the federal government,

00:08:39.120 not due to any policy of the provincial government.

00:08:42.360 They were also doubling as safe supply sites,

00:08:46.000 quote-unquote.

00:08:47.580 They closed 10 of them near schools and daycares,

00:08:51.420 and instead,

00:08:52.540 several of them are transferring into what's called heart hubs,

00:08:55.580 full addiction wraparound services,

00:08:58.120 all of that.

00:08:59.620 It took a lot of effort

00:09:01.540 and political capital within the government

00:09:03.980 just to get that kind of change,

00:09:06.960 because the bureaucracy is so entrenched

00:09:09.880 in keeping things as they were,

00:09:12.840 a safe injection site to, you know,

00:09:14.500 wherever you can get them,

00:09:15.860 a place to hand out opioid pills,

00:09:17.800 and it got so bad.

00:09:19.620 The famous one in Toronto,

00:09:21.340 the South Riverdale Community Health Centre,

00:09:22.960 where the shooting happened

00:09:24.300 when mother of two was tragically killed

00:09:26.980 just walking down the street.

00:09:29.500 It had gotten so bad

00:09:30.920 that they said right on their website

00:09:32.320 that even though they're required

00:09:34.400 by virtue of their license

00:09:36.660 to be offering people a path to treatment,

00:09:39.160 it actually said on their website

00:09:41.240 that they had no expectation

00:09:43.100 of you ever stopping using drugs.

00:09:45.480 Yeah, that's right.

00:09:46.620 That's right.

00:09:47.340 That's right.

00:09:47.720 So, I mean,

00:09:48.520 how did you deal with that

00:09:50.560 when you were in the Alberta government?

00:09:51.940 I'm sure you had some of the same issues.

00:09:54.520 Well, listen,

00:09:55.100 I'll continue on sort of where I left off

00:10:00.320 because it's part of the same answer.

00:10:02.620 You have to take,

00:10:03.720 you have to have a serious governance mechanism

00:10:06.460 in place, right?

00:10:08.760 You need not just,

00:10:11.060 this problem is too big

00:10:12.680 to rest on any one minister's shoulder.

00:10:16.480 It crosses all kinds of boundaries,

00:10:18.900 public safety,

00:10:19.780 indigenous relations,

00:10:21.740 justice,

00:10:22.500 education,

00:10:23.580 health,

00:10:24.120 mental health and addiction,

00:10:25.940 you know,

00:10:26.200 corrections,

00:10:27.200 policing.

00:10:29.000 This is too,

00:10:30.680 this has gotten too out of control

00:10:32.820 to put on the back of any one minister.

00:10:37.640 And because of the nature of addiction

00:10:41.980 and working in addicted systems,

00:10:45.100 the people who work in them

00:10:46.580 become affected

00:10:47.780 by the crisis of addiction

00:10:51.360 that they work in every day.

00:10:52.600 There was a great saying

00:10:53.800 that I used to tell the kind of patients

00:10:56.520 in treatment all the time

00:10:58.220 and I would say to them,

00:10:59.460 what you live in,

00:11:00.480 you learn.

00:11:01.960 What you learn,

00:11:03.200 you practice.

00:11:03.860 what you practice,

00:11:05.580 you become.

00:11:07.160 And what you become

00:11:08.280 has consequences.

00:11:10.700 And Brian,

00:11:11.780 look at the consequences

00:11:13.700 of what we've become.

00:11:16.100 And the answer to your question

00:11:17.620 about the bureaucracies

00:11:18.820 is just that,

00:11:20.120 right?

00:11:20.740 They,

00:11:21.260 the only voices

00:11:22.900 that they're interested in hearing

00:11:25.280 are the ones with similar views

00:11:27.640 to themselves.

00:11:28.380 And it's not just

00:11:30.360 that they,

00:11:30.880 that they passively ignore

00:11:32.600 voices that say

00:11:34.380 we should be doing

00:11:35.140 something different.

00:11:35.980 They are absolutely hostile,

00:11:38.880 right?

00:11:39.200 They are absolutely,

00:11:40.580 vociferously hostile

00:11:42.100 towards any notion

00:11:44.420 that we should tell people

00:11:47.200 that,

00:11:47.800 that it's probably a bad idea 0.74

00:11:49.660 that you shoot fentanyl 1.00

00:11:51.020 into your neck, 0.99

00:11:51.840 right? 0.64

00:11:52.820 And that you should come off of that

00:11:54.820 and that there's a better life for you.

00:11:56.740 And for whatever reason,

00:11:58.360 the people who share these views

00:12:00.860 have taken up post

00:12:02.800 in public health agencies

00:12:05.480 across the country

00:12:06.660 and,

00:12:08.240 and sort of metastasized

00:12:10.800 into health bureaucracies

00:12:13.800 and,

00:12:14.180 and health authorities.

00:12:15.160 That,

00:12:15.640 that's where they have,

00:12:16.900 they have taken up post.

00:12:18.040 And to a certain extent,

00:12:19.420 academia.

00:12:21.820 This is an issue though

00:12:23.480 that you mentioned earlier,

00:12:25.860 ministers of public safety,

00:12:27.680 health,

00:12:28.000 and so on.

00:12:28.800 I mean,

00:12:29.200 this is a huge public safety issue.

00:12:32.580 Yes.

00:12:32.840 We have Chinese triads,

00:12:34.980 Mexican cartels,

00:12:36.640 biker gangs,

00:12:38.560 all of them trading in this stuff.

00:12:40.280 And it was probably around

00:12:42.420 2017 or so.

00:12:44.920 I was living in Ottawa

00:12:45.960 and was noticing the up,

00:12:48.200 uh,

00:12:48.680 uptick in gun crime.

00:12:49.880 And so I talked to,

00:12:52.140 uh,

00:12:53.340 I talked to,

00:12:54.240 uh,

00:12:54.580 Ottawa police chief,

00:12:55.560 Charles Bordolo,

00:12:56.280 and I said,

00:12:56.600 what's going on?

00:12:57.420 And,

00:12:57.780 and he started talking to me

00:12:58.880 about fentanyl entering

00:13:00.180 the Ottawa market.

00:13:01.260 You know,

00:13:01.880 arrived there late 2016,

00:13:03.740 2017.

00:13:04.820 And he said,

00:13:05.900 this stuff is so valuable to them

00:13:07.980 that if they used a fist before,

00:13:11.000 they use a knife now.

00:13:11.840 If they use the knife before,

00:13:12.840 they're using guns now.

00:13:14.180 And he said,

00:13:14.980 everyone is arming up.

00:13:16.480 Uh,

00:13:16.940 that,

00:13:17.280 that was in sleepy Ottawa.

00:13:19.000 Uh,

00:13:19.480 we have had a,

00:13:20.540 a huge uptick in gun crime

00:13:22.380 pretty much everywhere

00:13:23.320 that this stuff has shown up.

00:13:25.320 That,

00:13:26.060 that should have been

00:13:26.920 an impetus enough

00:13:27.920 to,

00:13:28.680 to jump in,

00:13:30.080 to say,

00:13:31.020 okay,

00:13:31.300 we need to,

00:13:32.200 we need to take

00:13:32.780 the organized crime element

00:13:34.740 and the street crime element

00:13:36.440 seriously.

00:13:37.920 How,

00:13:38.440 how serious is the crime

00:13:39.960 part of it?

00:13:40.740 Because I'm sure when you were

00:13:41.980 chief of staff to the premier

00:13:43.540 that you would get briefings

00:13:44.740 and see statistics.

00:13:46.300 How,

00:13:47.260 how serious is that aspect of it

00:13:49.600 that we don't talk enough about?

00:13:51.440 Yeah,

00:13:51.580 it's,

00:13:51.860 it's incredibly serious.

00:13:54.020 Um,

00:13:54.620 and I,

00:13:55.520 and I think that it's so serious

00:13:57.380 that,

00:13:58.000 that often,

00:13:58.860 you know,

00:13:59.780 the realities of what that looks like

00:14:02.180 on the streets of Canada

00:14:03.460 are kept muted

00:14:04.700 because what there is to say

00:14:08.480 about it when you open the kimono

00:14:10.380 is very scary.

00:14:13.540 uh,

00:14:13.940 automatic weapons,

00:14:15.280 human trafficking,

00:14:16.300 you know,

00:14:17.200 the,

00:14:17.380 the sort of atrocities

00:14:18.840 that are going on.

00:14:20.700 Uh,

00:14:21.280 this is the consequences

00:14:23.120 of what we've become

00:14:24.660 because we've allowed

00:14:26.840 the public policy conversation

00:14:29.000 to become hijacked

00:14:31.240 by drug user unions,

00:14:33.200 uh,

00:14:34.540 and,

00:14:35.240 and,

00:14:35.880 uh,

00:14:36.240 and people who think

00:14:37.480 that we should,

00:14:38.220 uh,

00:14:38.920 take all of the money

00:14:39.860 away from the police,

00:14:40.960 uh,

00:14:41.920 and that they should go away

00:14:43.280 and that people should be allowed

00:14:44.720 to use drugs

00:14:45.600 whenever and wherever they want

00:14:47.700 and if they don't have any

00:14:48.720 that we should give them to them.

00:14:50.620 And,

00:14:51.220 and I gotta tell you,

00:14:52.420 Brian,

00:14:52.940 I have to tell you,

00:14:54.400 uh,

00:14:55.960 who's at fault for that?

00:14:57.240 Uh,

00:14:58.840 it's not drug addicts

00:15:00.440 that are at fault for that.

00:15:02.340 Uh,

00:15:02.740 and I,

00:15:03.160 look,

00:15:03.320 I'm gonna take a lot

00:15:04.060 of criticism

00:15:04.700 from,

00:15:05.380 from my,

00:15:06.100 uh,

00:15:06.820 conservative friends

00:15:07.940 across the country,

00:15:09.140 but I would dare to say

00:15:11.540 that,

00:15:13.060 you know,

00:15:13.480 drug addicts

00:15:14.160 have a health problem. 1.00

00:15:15.400 They're really sick,

00:15:16.600 uh,

00:15:17.740 and,

00:15:18.140 and we can have a lot

00:15:19.040 of conversations

00:15:19.740 about how they became

00:15:21.080 that way,

00:15:21.660 but the reality is

00:15:22.820 their brains are hijacked

00:15:24.780 by highly potent chemicals.

00:15:27.640 Their job

00:15:28.840 is to go from A to B

00:15:31.180 and get drugs

00:15:32.020 and use drugs.

00:15:32.940 That is their life.

00:15:34.100 That's what they do.

00:15:36.320 They're the only ones

00:15:37.720 in this equation

00:15:38.500 who are doing their job.

00:15:41.080 It's on the rest of us

00:15:43.020 in the community

00:15:43.920 to set boundaries,

00:15:45.800 to say,

00:15:47.280 we're not doing this anymore.

00:15:49.200 Enough is enough.

00:15:50.480 We're gonna demand

00:15:52.260 the political courage,

00:15:53.720 leadership,

00:15:54.160 and vision

00:15:54.560 to make change.

00:15:55.820 We're gonna be okay

00:15:57.040 with putting up some bucks

00:15:58.440 to build treatment centers,

00:16:01.200 to build therapeutic living units

00:16:03.480 in our correctional centers,

00:16:04.660 to actually do a good job

00:16:06.860 at this,

00:16:07.700 what we should have been doing

00:16:08.960 for decades

00:16:09.860 that we've failed to do.

00:16:12.260 Instead,

00:16:13.400 we have done nothing

00:16:14.660 and we've expected nothing.

00:16:17.160 We carry our Starbucks,

00:16:18.840 we walk down the sidewalk,

00:16:21.140 we step over homeless people,

00:16:23.660 blissfully carrying on our day,

00:16:26.360 ignoring the problem.

00:16:29.900 And so,

00:16:31.000 look,

00:16:31.980 at some point,

00:16:34.060 we can sit around

00:16:35.700 and we can point fingers

00:16:37.000 at those homeless drug addicts

00:16:38.720 that are out there all the time.

00:16:40.560 And I'm not removing responsibility.

00:16:42.680 In fact,

00:16:43.540 I'm one of the biggest advocates

00:16:45.480 in the country

00:16:46.100 to say

00:16:46.580 that they have to take responsibility

00:16:48.560 for their health.

00:16:50.160 But we have a responsibility

00:16:51.800 to set the standards

00:16:53.900 in our community

00:16:54.780 and to make sure

00:16:56.360 that the people

00:16:57.060 who are advising

00:16:58.200 the government

00:16:59.520 and the governments themselves

00:17:01.380 are putting forward

00:17:03.400 robust and realistic visions

00:17:05.760 for how we're going

00:17:07.720 to keep control

00:17:09.560 of the social contract

00:17:11.080 and to make sure

00:17:13.060 that there are outcomes

00:17:14.560 and that we're moving

00:17:15.320 in that direction.

00:17:18.620 We've got

00:17:19.420 the homeless aspect of it,

00:17:22.580 we've got the addictions

00:17:23.400 aspect of it,

00:17:24.320 but we've also got

00:17:25.880 just bad policy.

00:17:27.420 So,

00:17:27.600 you were talking about

00:17:29.260 therapeutic treatment centers

00:17:31.960 in jails.

00:17:33.220 Instead,

00:17:35.000 we're getting reports

00:17:35.740 out of parliament

00:17:36.240 calling for decriminalization

00:17:37.840 of drugs

00:17:38.440 or putting safe injection sites

00:17:40.440 in jails

00:17:42.320 to,

00:17:43.940 you know,

00:17:44.320 just keep them moving along.

00:17:46.120 The drugs are illegal,

00:17:47.100 but you want a safe injection site

00:17:48.460 in there.

00:17:48.740 How are they getting the drugs?

00:17:50.200 Oh,

00:17:50.380 they're smuggling them in,

00:17:51.320 so breaking the law again.

00:17:54.600 This is madness.

00:17:56.680 I agree,

00:17:57.680 there should be,

00:17:58.560 you should be getting treatment

00:18:00.160 while you're in jail.

00:18:01.100 We haven't been doing that.

00:18:03.440 We've had decades

00:18:05.140 of academics

00:18:06.000 pushing

00:18:06.560 what I think

00:18:07.920 are 1.00

00:18:08.400 garbage 1.00

00:18:09.860 advocacy,

00:18:11.480 activist studies,

00:18:12.500 to get politicians

00:18:14.000 to move in this direction.

00:18:15.340 And we've been listening

00:18:16.320 to bad advice

00:18:17.400 for years.

00:18:18.480 Right.

00:18:19.380 Right.

00:18:19.700 Look,

00:18:19.960 let's talk about corrections.

00:18:22.740 You know,

00:18:23.400 in the Alberta recovery model

00:18:25.800 that we've built,

00:18:26.980 which,

00:18:27.220 by the way,

00:18:27.600 we're seeing

00:18:28.280 very tremendous

00:18:29.420 early results,

00:18:30.200 we've cut fatal overdoses

00:18:31.680 by 40%

00:18:33.020 year over year.

00:18:34.880 It's tremendous.

00:18:36.140 There's a lot of work

00:18:37.040 by a lot of people

00:18:37.960 that's gone into that.

00:18:39.660 Corrections has been

00:18:40.600 a big focus of ours.

00:18:42.620 And,

00:18:43.080 you know,

00:18:43.480 I often tell,

00:18:44.860 you know,

00:18:45.160 some of the folks

00:18:45.820 that are working

00:18:46.880 in our system

00:18:47.560 that they have

00:18:48.240 a remarkable grasp

00:18:49.480 of the obvious

00:18:50.480 in building out

00:18:52.780 our system,

00:18:53.480 which is to say,

00:18:54.780 we took

00:18:55.560 living units,

00:18:56.920 which hold

00:18:58.580 about,

00:18:59.000 you know,

00:18:59.360 30 or 40

00:19:00.380 inmates

00:19:01.360 out of each

00:19:03.200 correctional center

00:19:04.100 and we turned them

00:19:05.760 into treatment centers.

00:19:06.900 So treatment centers

00:19:08.380 inside correctional centers.

00:19:10.880 And we staffed them

00:19:12.860 with therapists

00:19:14.740 and peer workers.

00:19:16.220 And,

00:19:17.820 you know,

00:19:18.000 there's lineups

00:19:18.820 to get into

00:19:19.660 these units.

00:19:22.380 Not because it's

00:19:23.520 an easier ride.

00:19:24.960 And in fact,

00:19:26.280 to my friends

00:19:27.420 who are listening

00:19:28.640 to this,

00:19:29.080 who are law and order,

00:19:30.360 you know,

00:19:30.700 kind of tough

00:19:31.420 on drugs

00:19:32.540 advocates,

00:19:33.960 which is fine.

00:19:35.980 I'm all for being

00:19:36.880 tough on drugs.

00:19:38.460 I think that

00:19:39.400 conservatives

00:19:40.060 have incorrectly

00:19:42.200 identified

00:19:43.240 the corollary

00:19:46.140 between being

00:19:47.020 tough on drugs

00:19:48.180 and being hard

00:19:49.920 on people.

00:19:53.340 I want to get

00:19:54.760 people treatment

00:19:55.500 and I want to

00:19:56.420 bust the gangs.

00:19:58.160 Well,

00:19:58.460 listen,

00:19:58.760 you're talking

00:19:59.200 about different

00:20:00.140 things.

00:20:00.760 I mean,

00:20:01.100 the therapeutic

00:20:02.940 correctional

00:20:03.940 units that we

00:20:05.100 have is some

00:20:07.400 of the toughest

00:20:08.140 time that you

00:20:09.160 can serve.

00:20:11.000 Why?

00:20:11.800 These look,

00:20:12.860 in a regular

00:20:13.880 living unit

00:20:14.540 in jail,

00:20:15.700 okay,

00:20:16.500 you wake up

00:20:17.280 in the morning,

00:20:18.200 maybe you make

00:20:18.900 your bed,

00:20:20.140 eat some chocolate

00:20:20.920 bars,

00:20:21.440 have breakfast,

00:20:22.380 go to the gym,

00:20:23.800 watch some TV,

00:20:24.980 have a nap,

00:20:26.220 you know,

00:20:26.580 talk on the phone.

00:20:28.040 That's the daily

00:20:29.060 life of an inmate.

00:20:31.000 In a therapeutic

00:20:32.820 living unit,

00:20:33.940 they're up at

00:20:34.960 7 a.m.,

00:20:36.040 bed made tight,

00:20:37.280 hospital corners,

00:20:38.960 they're sitting

00:20:39.840 in a chair in a

00:20:40.860 circle with their

00:20:41.720 therapists,

00:20:43.220 confronting their

00:20:44.020 issues,

00:20:44.880 facing themselves

00:20:45.900 and their peers.

00:20:47.700 And I'm not

00:20:48.660 talking about just

00:20:49.600 filling in tick

00:20:51.020 box forms,

00:20:51.800 I'm talking about 0.86

00:20:52.780 butts in seats, 0.98

00:20:54.100 doing the ugly 0.99

00:20:54.880 crying,

00:20:56.420 transforming

00:20:57.180 yourself,

00:20:58.940 right?

00:20:59.220 and that

00:20:59.980 goes on

00:21:00.620 for 10

00:21:01.380 hours

00:21:02.140 a day.

00:21:04.520 So I

00:21:05.460 would put

00:21:05.940 to you,

00:21:06.940 what does

00:21:08.360 tough on drugs

00:21:09.380 look like,

00:21:10.480 right?

00:21:10.900 If I had it

00:21:11.940 my way,

00:21:13.040 every correctional

00:21:14.280 unit in the

00:21:15.320 country would

00:21:16.780 be a therapeutic

00:21:17.480 living unit.

00:21:18.160 As a taxpayer,

00:21:20.040 I think I have

00:21:21.200 the right to

00:21:21.760 demand a return

00:21:22.660 on my investment.

00:21:23.580 I have no

00:21:24.300 problem investing

00:21:25.320 in getting

00:21:26.460 people who go

00:21:27.240 in,

00:21:27.980 you know,

00:21:28.200 they've committed

00:21:28.640 a crime,

00:21:29.260 they're there

00:21:29.640 as punishment,

00:21:30.860 not for punishment,

00:21:32.260 they go in there,

00:21:33.340 what are we going

00:21:33.860 to do with them?

00:21:34.480 You've got addicts

00:21:35.360 and alcoholics,

00:21:36.380 they're all pulled

00:21:37.160 up in one spot.

00:21:38.660 What a horrible

00:21:39.700 opportunity missed

00:21:42.160 if we're not

00:21:43.600 going in there

00:21:44.320 and doing things

00:21:45.140 like this.

00:21:46.500 What's the

00:21:47.300 cost differential

00:21:48.520 between a

00:21:49.600 regular jail

00:21:50.560 and one of

00:21:51.080 these therapeutic?

00:21:51.960 Is it,

00:21:52.740 you know,

00:21:53.700 several times

00:21:55.160 higher than

00:21:55.800 just,

00:21:57.020 you know,

00:21:57.540 warehousing people?

00:21:59.340 Well,

00:21:59.580 not at all.

00:22:00.300 I mean,

00:22:00.580 let's let,

00:22:01.560 no,

00:22:01.880 it's pennies

00:22:03.520 on the dollar.

00:22:04.320 I mean,

00:22:05.020 you know,

00:22:05.260 we run one

00:22:05.940 of these living

00:22:07.600 units for maybe

00:22:08.560 a million

00:22:09.300 one a year

00:22:10.420 and one

00:22:12.940 of those

00:22:13.540 inmates can do

00:22:14.500 a million

00:22:14.940 one a year

00:22:15.520 in damage,

00:22:16.840 you know,

00:22:17.240 in the community

00:22:17.900 easily,

00:22:18.640 just one

00:22:19.400 of them.

00:22:20.780 So,

00:22:21.260 you know,

00:22:21.920 and we're doing

00:22:22.560 hundreds and

00:22:23.560 hundreds of

00:22:24.300 them.

00:22:25.180 So,

00:22:25.500 no,

00:22:25.740 it's very,

00:22:26.860 very inexpensive.

00:22:29.520 Think about all

00:22:30.340 of the things

00:22:30.800 that you don't

00:22:31.800 have to build.

00:22:32.960 You don't have

00:22:33.720 to build a

00:22:34.600 building,

00:22:35.360 right?

00:22:35.720 You already

00:22:36.200 have one.

00:22:37.160 They already

00:22:37.740 have a bed

00:22:38.200 to sleep in.

00:22:38.880 You're already

00:22:39.480 feeding them.

00:22:40.260 They already

00:22:40.780 have medical

00:22:41.400 services.

00:22:42.180 They already

00:22:42.680 have all

00:22:43.380 of these things

00:22:43.940 that are already

00:22:44.640 there that you

00:22:45.900 don't have to

00:22:46.820 spend any more

00:22:47.900 money on.

00:22:48.960 Just put the

00:22:49.660 therapist in

00:22:50.520 there,

00:22:51.060 right?

00:22:51.400 And have a

00:22:52.320 tough program.

00:22:53.200 They're still

00:22:53.600 correctional officers

00:22:54.560 and they're kind

00:22:55.220 of part of it.

00:22:56.160 But any one of

00:22:57.100 those inmates

00:22:57.600 that will come

00:22:58.320 out of there,

00:22:58.900 and by the

00:22:59.440 way,

00:23:00.140 you know,

00:23:00.520 in our model

00:23:01.480 in Alberta,

00:23:02.420 we've built,

00:23:03.140 every correctional

00:23:04.080 center has a

00:23:04.660 sister recovery

00:23:05.980 community treatment

00:23:06.860 center on the

00:23:07.880 outside.

00:23:08.800 And so when an

00:23:09.460 inmate comes to

00:23:10.160 the end of their

00:23:10.720 sentence in the

00:23:11.540 therapeutic living

00:23:12.640 unit,

00:23:13.200 they can transfer

00:23:14.080 to the treatment

00:23:15.600 center to finish

00:23:16.380 their treatment,

00:23:17.140 you know,

00:23:17.400 in the community.

00:23:18.200 So we're

00:23:18.720 building a system

00:23:19.620 of care.

00:23:20.780 And,

00:23:21.420 you know,

00:23:21.540 that's the type

00:23:22.220 of vision,

00:23:23.380 not just giving

00:23:25.380 a grant,

00:23:26.040 cutting a ribbon,

00:23:27.340 you know,

00:23:27.620 giving a grant,

00:23:28.460 cutting a ribbon

00:23:29.100 with no thought

00:23:30.260 to how these

00:23:30.940 things interconnect

00:23:31.760 and how we're

00:23:33.380 going to put

00:23:33.760 people on a

00:23:34.440 pathway,

00:23:35.100 a true pathway

00:23:35.920 to wellness.

00:23:37.480 Have you been

00:23:37.740 doing it long

00:23:38.340 enough to see

00:23:39.160 whether there's

00:23:39.800 a drop in

00:23:40.420 recidivism?

00:23:42.280 Absolutely,

00:23:43.160 there's a drop

00:23:43.740 in recidivism.

00:23:45.260 It's a significant

00:23:46.460 one.

00:23:47.780 It's going to be,

00:23:48.420 it's going to be

00:23:49.380 like north of

00:23:50.320 50% reduction,

00:23:52.960 you know,

00:23:53.300 maybe even more.

00:23:54.160 I'm expecting

00:23:54.740 something in the

00:23:55.480 area of 60 to

00:23:56.540 70% reduction

00:23:57.800 in recidivism.

00:23:59.380 All right,

00:23:59.560 Marsha,

00:23:59.820 we're going to

00:24:00.140 take a quick

00:24:00.620 break.

00:24:00.920 When we come

00:24:01.300 back,

00:24:02.100 we'll talk more

00:24:03.500 about the

00:24:04.140 border issue.

00:24:05.840 I had a

00:24:06.120 conversation with

00:24:07.120 Premier Smith

00:24:07.780 about how

00:24:09.100 fentanyl and

00:24:10.280 the labs are

00:24:10.860 growing in BC

00:24:11.640 and Alberta

00:24:12.140 a little while

00:24:12.660 ago.

00:24:12.840 We'll get

00:24:13.540 into that

00:24:14.040 and why we

00:24:14.660 caught the

00:24:14.980 Americans' 0.58

00:24:15.500 attention for

00:24:16.040 all the wrong

00:24:16.600 reasons.

00:24:17.100 Back in

00:24:17.440 moments.

00:24:18.580 Postmedia is

00:24:19.500 launching a

00:24:20.400 brand new

00:24:21.020 podcast,

00:24:21.660 Canada Did

00:24:22.340 What?

00:24:22.700 It'll be

00:24:22.980 hosted by

00:24:23.500 Tristan Hopper,

00:24:24.700 funny guy,

00:24:25.560 interesting guy.

00:24:26.360 He's been on

00:24:26.780 this podcast.

00:24:27.900 Canada Did

00:24:28.400 What?

00:24:28.740 We'll dig

00:24:29.660 into the

00:24:30.040 untold,

00:24:30.620 surprising

00:24:30.980 political

00:24:31.400 stories of

00:24:32.020 the last

00:24:32.400 few decades.

00:24:33.500 And Tristan

00:24:33.820 Hopper is

00:24:34.200 going to look

00:24:34.500 at everything

00:24:34.840 from the

00:24:35.240 metric wars to

00:24:36.060 Morgenthaler,

00:24:37.020 the October

00:24:37.480 crisis,

00:24:38.080 the abortion

00:24:38.440 debate.

00:24:38.800 We're unpacking

00:24:39.580 all the wildest

00:24:40.440 political

00:24:40.780 moments.

00:24:41.200 You might

00:24:42.420 think you're

00:24:42.940 a member and

00:24:44.040 giving you the

00:24:44.600 real story that

00:24:45.300 you never knew.

00:24:46.840 Tristan will

00:24:47.140 talk to the

00:24:47.560 politicians,

00:24:48.260 journalists,

00:24:48.640 newsmakers who

00:24:49.300 were right there

00:24:49.960 when history

00:24:50.540 happened, and

00:24:51.920 he's going to

00:24:52.160 have a lot of

00:24:52.580 fun doing it.

00:24:53.220 That is coming

00:24:53.920 out shortly, so

00:24:54.780 keep an eye out

00:24:55.380 for that one.

00:24:56.340 So, Marshall,

00:24:56.660 bringing it back

00:24:57.320 to where we

00:24:57.740 started about

00:24:58.260 Donald Trump

00:24:59.080 and giving us

00:25:00.160 a kick in the 0.99

00:25:00.660 butt about 0.98

00:25:01.100 fentanyl, the

00:25:03.740 Trudeau

00:25:04.060 government, when

00:25:04.680 he first said,

00:25:06.080 you've got a

00:25:06.440 problem on your

00:25:06.960 border, they

00:25:08.240 said, no, no,

00:25:08.980 we don't, we're

00:25:09.440 less than 1%.

00:25:10.180 Just look at

00:25:11.060 that stat, just

00:25:11.660 43 pounds, that's

00:25:12.940 it.

00:25:13.700 And my thought

00:25:14.380 was, well, we're

00:25:14.980 probably not

00:25:15.640 catching very

00:25:16.500 much.

00:25:17.540 In two months

00:25:18.540 since Ontario

00:25:19.300 launched their

00:25:20.600 Operation Deterrence,

00:25:22.320 where they're

00:25:22.720 doing border

00:25:23.320 patrols, the

00:25:24.880 OPP and their

00:25:26.360 municipal partners

00:25:27.360 have seized 46

00:25:29.480 pounds of

00:25:30.840 fentanyl, more

00:25:31.420 than across the

00:25:32.120 entire country.

00:25:33.440 I'm sure that

00:25:34.320 the Alberta

00:25:34.740 sheriffs are 1.00

00:25:35.280 going to find

00:25:35.680 some more.

00:25:36.300 I'm sure that

00:25:36.880 the SQ in

00:25:38.300 Quebec, etc.

00:25:40.880 And when I

00:25:41.700 was speaking

00:25:42.080 with Premier

00:25:42.560 Smith, she

00:25:43.080 said, you

00:25:43.900 know, the

00:25:44.440 human smuggling

00:25:45.300 thing, that

00:25:45.860 happens more

00:25:46.740 in eastern

00:25:48.160 Canada, but

00:25:48.840 she said,

00:25:50.000 fentanyl labs

00:25:50.720 are becoming

00:25:51.160 a big business

00:25:52.520 in BC and

00:25:53.960 it's moving

00:25:54.380 into Alberta

00:25:55.060 and we've

00:25:55.840 got to be

00:25:56.900 concerned about

00:25:58.280 that.

00:25:59.280 How big is

00:26:00.640 the operation

00:26:01.440 and is it

00:26:02.300 spreading?

00:26:03.840 I think the

00:26:04.620 operation is

00:26:05.560 significant enough

00:26:06.840 to warrant

00:26:07.560 a bulletin

00:26:09.880 from the

00:26:10.360 Canadian

00:26:10.740 Criminal

00:26:11.580 Intelligence

00:26:12.680 Service that

00:26:15.940 I read not

00:26:17.300 long ago.

00:26:17.760 It was not a

00:26:19.540 classified document,

00:26:20.800 so I'm happy to

00:26:21.700 talk about it,

00:26:22.320 but it was a

00:26:23.280 bulletin that

00:26:25.220 basically said

00:26:26.200 that the

00:26:26.660 service was

00:26:27.260 now prepared

00:26:27.980 to say that

00:26:32.620 Canada was 0.81

00:26:33.220 now a

00:26:33.640 fentanyl

00:26:34.060 exporting

00:26:34.740 country.

00:26:35.420 Was this

00:26:37.360 the Fintrack

00:26:38.220 study?

00:26:38.960 No, this

00:26:39.640 is the

00:26:40.720 Canadian

00:26:41.040 Criminal

00:26:41.480 Intelligence

00:26:42.260 Service.

00:26:43.700 Fintrack said

00:26:44.440 something similar

00:26:45.160 and they're the

00:26:45.580 ones that track

00:26:46.160 the money laundering,

00:26:47.100 which apparently is

00:26:47.780 huge in Canada.

00:26:49.420 Yeah, so look,

00:26:50.860 we're, you know,

00:26:53.060 we are fentanyl

00:26:54.880 producers.

00:26:56.880 You know, a lot

00:26:57.660 of the precursors

00:26:58.480 come in and it

00:26:59.820 happens here and

00:27:00.880 and look, we

00:27:01.920 are a country

00:27:02.940 with wide open

00:27:03.800 spaces, with

00:27:04.820 lots of real

00:27:05.580 estate and

00:27:07.360 lots of places

00:27:08.040 to hide to do

00:27:09.100 these things.

00:27:10.380 So these things

00:27:11.440 can go relatively

00:27:12.480 undetected.

00:27:14.160 And, you know,

00:27:15.080 over the last

00:27:15.900 20 years, our

00:27:17.380 law enforcement

00:27:18.060 bodies have

00:27:18.920 dramatically reduced

00:27:20.200 the amount of

00:27:21.080 budget associated

00:27:22.300 with drug

00:27:23.140 enforcement.

00:27:24.160 I remember,

00:27:25.380 you know, back

00:27:26.260 in my day,

00:27:27.940 you know, running

00:27:28.540 around Vancouver,

00:27:30.220 there was a

00:27:32.700 drug squad in

00:27:34.060 Vancouver that

00:27:35.000 was about 75

00:27:36.360 full-time

00:27:38.100 officers strong.

00:27:40.780 And, you know,

00:27:42.180 recently, over the

00:27:43.680 last couple of

00:27:44.320 years, I inquired

00:27:45.220 again from a

00:27:46.100 friend of mine

00:27:46.560 who was on the

00:27:47.100 force, and they

00:27:48.640 had been reduced

00:27:49.360 to 11.

00:27:51.160 75 to 11.

00:27:53.360 20-odd years

00:27:53.840 ago to 11.

00:27:55.200 Yeah.

00:27:56.240 So even though

00:27:57.720 the problem is

00:27:58.440 getting bigger,

00:27:59.140 the number has

00:28:00.200 been dropping.

00:28:01.400 And the reality

00:28:02.140 for the chiefs

00:28:03.520 of police has

00:28:05.060 been that they

00:28:05.740 have had mayors

00:28:07.220 who often

00:28:10.040 control the

00:28:10.900 police commissions

00:28:12.180 who are putting

00:28:14.480 tremendous budget

00:28:15.400 pressures to cut

00:28:16.340 police budgets,

00:28:17.820 right, and

00:28:18.300 because they want

00:28:19.480 to repurpose that

00:28:20.360 money to harm

00:28:21.620 reduction programs

00:28:22.520 or other services.

00:28:23.880 And, you know,

00:28:26.900 the public has

00:28:27.880 kind of gone

00:28:29.640 along with it,

00:28:30.480 Brian.

00:28:30.980 Like, there was

00:28:31.840 no, there hasn't

00:28:32.800 been like a

00:28:34.280 scream to say,

00:28:38.160 like, we're not

00:28:38.660 going to stand

00:28:39.180 for this.

00:28:39.820 The public kind

00:28:40.520 of went, oh,

00:28:40.940 yeah, decrim,

00:28:41.740 yeah, maybe it's a

00:28:42.440 good idea, you

00:28:43.260 know, let's try

00:28:43.940 it.

00:28:44.160 Uh, and so

00:28:46.880 they're going to

00:28:48.020 reapportion those

00:28:48.940 budgets and put

00:28:50.040 them into response

00:28:50.980 policing.

00:28:51.780 And that's exactly

00:28:52.820 what we've seen

00:28:53.440 across the country.

00:28:54.360 So we're, we are

00:28:55.700 missing out on,

00:28:56.880 uh, you know,

00:28:58.340 really robust,

00:28:59.580 uh, intelligence,

00:29:01.440 uh, you know,

00:29:02.680 specialized units,

00:29:04.480 uh, source

00:29:05.400 handling, uh,

00:29:07.420 you know, and all

00:29:08.640 of those kind of

00:29:09.440 specialized functions

00:29:10.860 that go into

00:29:12.840 policing or that

00:29:13.640 used to go into

00:29:14.400 policing, uh,

00:29:15.800 because look,

00:29:16.540 you don't catch

00:29:17.940 fentanyl labs, uh,

00:29:20.340 by having people,

00:29:21.980 having police

00:29:22.600 officers driving a

00:29:23.740 police car down

00:29:25.040 Bloor street, right?

00:29:26.760 You know, essentially

00:29:27.440 that's not how it's

00:29:28.240 done.

00:29:28.480 It's done by having 0.96

00:29:29.740 specialized squads

00:29:31.000 that know how to

00:29:32.140 recruit and handle

00:29:33.220 sources, human

00:29:35.000 sources that give

00:29:36.380 them information

00:29:37.160 that help in their

00:29:38.660 investigations and

00:29:39.720 they follow, you

00:29:40.800 know, up the, up

00:29:41.860 the stream to find

00:29:43.160 it.

00:29:43.360 And, and a lot

00:29:44.320 of the, the

00:29:45.000 investments that

00:29:46.040 governments have

00:29:47.160 made in these type

00:29:48.260 of services over the

00:29:49.260 years have been

00:29:49.860 decimated.

00:29:52.000 It's very

00:29:53.700 depressing, uh,

00:29:55.000 excuse me, to

00:29:56.080 listen to, um, you

00:29:58.220 know, one of the

00:29:59.200 things that I noted

00:29:59.980 in an executive

00:30:01.320 order signed by

00:30:02.120 president Trump on

00:30:03.860 this issue, uh,

00:30:05.840 was that they

00:30:07.240 specifically,

00:30:07.820 specifically said,

00:30:09.280 uh, the

00:30:11.320 fentanyl is coming

00:30:11.980 in from Canada

00:30:12.680 through the mail.

00:30:14.340 And I thought,

00:30:15.320 wait a minute,

00:30:15.800 that sounds like

00:30:16.760 how it used to

00:30:17.580 come into Canada

00:30:18.660 from China.

00:30:19.840 Uh, and then,

00:30:20.920 you know, people

00:30:21.780 scoffed at that.

00:30:22.560 And just two weeks

00:30:24.560 ago, uh, a

00:30:26.260 shipping, um, uh,

00:30:28.620 center in

00:30:29.920 Seattle, they're

00:30:30.640 doing just spot

00:30:31.960 checks.

00:30:32.300 They open up a

00:30:33.000 package.

00:30:33.420 There's a pound of

00:30:34.020 it had just come in

00:30:34.920 in a shipment from

00:30:35.560 Canada.

00:30:36.360 Right.

00:30:37.300 Yeah.

00:30:37.580 Well, look, in, in

00:30:39.580 Canada, uh, you

00:30:42.560 know, the last time

00:30:43.400 that, that I, I

00:30:44.240 mean, look, I've

00:30:44.680 been, I've been kind

00:30:45.660 of not in my chair

00:30:46.660 in, in office for a

00:30:47.900 while, so I, but it

00:30:49.100 hasn't been that

00:30:49.720 long.

00:30:50.000 So I still have

00:30:50.720 relatively fresh,

00:30:51.760 uh, information

00:30:53.900 and, and I can, um,

00:30:56.200 I can say generally

00:30:57.480 that a lot of the

00:31:00.220 drugs that come in,

00:31:01.740 uh, into our

00:31:02.820 country are coming

00:31:03.720 in through our

00:31:04.640 ports, uh, in

00:31:06.540 particular, the port

00:31:07.380 of Vancouver, uh, a

00:31:09.400 lot of these, uh, and

00:31:11.080 a lot of these drugs

00:31:12.140 are also coming in

00:31:13.260 on ships, uh, where

00:31:15.320 the load is dumped,

00:31:16.540 uh, you know, into

00:31:17.660 the water and buoyed

00:31:19.040 off the west, uh,

00:31:21.280 coast of Vancouver

00:31:22.280 Island.

00:31:23.480 Uh, you know, then

00:31:24.600 people go out and get

00:31:26.060 it and, you know, and

00:31:27.020 bring it back in and

00:31:27.880 it makes its way, you

00:31:29.120 know, from Vancouver

00:31:29.840 Island through

00:31:30.480 Vancouver, uh, and

00:31:32.240 then, uh, starts

00:31:33.540 making its journey

00:31:34.520 east.

00:31:34.800 So it, uh, it, it

00:31:35.780 may not even come

00:31:36.680 into the port.

00:31:37.320 They're throwing it

00:31:37.900 overboard for people

00:31:39.800 to pick up.

00:31:41.040 That's right.

00:31:41.700 I mean, why, why

00:31:42.500 would you risk all

00:31:43.640 of the security at

00:31:44.560 the port when you

00:31:45.800 can just, what

00:31:46.680 security at the

00:31:47.480 port?

00:31:47.880 There's no, when

00:31:48.320 you can, yeah, when

00:31:49.520 you can just dump it,

00:31:50.620 you know, a mile

00:31:51.620 offshore and a, and a

00:31:52.880 boat just comes to,

00:31:53.780 to pick it up.

00:31:54.560 Why would you take

00:31:55.380 the risk?

00:31:56.080 So, you know, so

00:31:57.260 there is, there's a

00:31:58.060 lot of that that's

00:31:58.840 been going on for

00:31:59.920 years.

00:32:00.820 Uh, also the

00:32:02.060 commercial

00:32:02.460 transportation, uh,

00:32:04.300 industry, uh, you

00:32:06.620 know, from Vancouver

00:32:07.740 going east, uh, is,

00:32:10.180 is also chock-a-block 0.97

00:32:11.800 full of drug

00:32:13.420 mewling, uh, that

00:32:15.500 brings the product

00:32:16.540 kind of from

00:32:17.260 British Columbia, you

00:32:18.620 know, and moves it

00:32:19.340 across the country.

00:32:20.160 So look, I don't, you

00:32:21.240 know, it's, it's

00:32:21.800 very, uh, it's a

00:32:23.560 very difficult

00:32:24.220 conversation to talk

00:32:25.540 about interprovincial

00:32:26.540 borders.

00:32:27.380 Um, and, and

00:32:29.320 certainly I don't

00:32:29.960 think anybody wants

00:32:30.840 to see, uh, um,

00:32:33.920 anybody wants to

00:32:34.940 see kind of, you

00:32:36.060 know, border

00:32:36.640 facilities in between

00:32:38.120 provinces.

00:32:38.620 I think that's a

00:32:39.280 non-starter, but we

00:32:40.660 should absolutely be

00:32:41.920 beefing up commercial

00:32:43.040 vehicle inspections,

00:32:44.120 uh, you know,

00:32:45.720 utilizing canines and,

00:32:47.600 and other technology,

00:32:49.280 uh, you know, and I

00:32:51.260 think those should be

00:32:51.980 partnerships.

00:32:52.560 They should be

00:32:53.560 things that bring

00:32:54.340 provinces together

00:32:55.420 rather than dividing

00:32:56.840 them.

00:32:57.580 Alberta and British

00:32:58.400 Columbia should, for

00:32:59.820 example, should be

00:33:00.840 collaborating on

00:33:02.480 cross-border, uh,

00:33:04.020 interdiction.

00:33:05.040 Uh, they should have

00:33:06.200 their commercial

00:33:06.800 vehicle units

00:33:07.700 collaborating on, uh,

00:33:10.080 on making sure that

00:33:11.260 there are more

00:33:12.460 inspections and, and

00:33:13.800 introducing things like

00:33:15.020 drug-sniffing dogs to

00:33:16.220 those loads.

00:33:18.840 Yeah, well, part of, uh,

00:33:21.800 how they've been

00:33:22.240 finding stuff in

00:33:23.000 Ontario was 17,000

00:33:24.600 truck inspections in

00:33:26.400 very short order.

00:33:27.460 Yeah, very much so.

00:33:28.680 Yeah.

00:33:29.180 Right.

00:33:29.480 And that is part of

00:33:30.760 it.

00:33:31.880 If, okay, so you

00:33:34.220 have advised

00:33:34.820 governments across

00:33:36.020 the, uh, the

00:33:37.060 country, you're

00:33:38.440 sitting in the room

00:33:39.220 with, let's say I'm

00:33:41.800 in, um, Queens

00:33:43.440 Park, I'm, uh, two

00:33:44.680 floors up from

00:33:45.340 Premier Ford's

00:33:46.080 office.

00:33:46.840 We're all assuming,

00:33:48.040 you know, let's

00:33:48.960 say, uh, you're

00:33:50.180 sitting in his room.

00:33:51.480 Yeah.

00:33:52.100 What, what are you

00:33:52.700 telling him?

00:33:53.060 What are the five

00:33:53.820 things that you're

00:33:54.460 saying, here's what

00:33:55.440 you need to do to

00:33:57.100 deal with this

00:33:57.820 problem from a crime

00:33:59.140 perspective, from an

00:34:00.500 addictions perspective,

00:34:01.420 from a public safety

00:34:02.520 perspective?

00:34:03.480 Well, the number one

00:34:04.620 thing that I had, that I,

00:34:05.740 that I, that I, I will

00:34:07.460 and do hammer on the

00:34:09.500 premiers to do is to

00:34:11.820 get their governance in

00:34:13.440 order, right?

00:34:14.420 They're not organized,

00:34:15.820 uh, appropriately to

00:34:17.760 tackle these issues.

00:34:19.020 We're still using

00:34:20.220 government structures

00:34:21.140 that were built in

00:34:22.040 the seventies, uh, to

00:34:23.700 try and tackle some

00:34:24.820 really complicated,

00:34:25.800 uh, societal issues.

00:34:28.400 Governments aren't set

00:34:29.360 up to do this

00:34:30.240 properly.

00:34:31.280 Uh, so this is a

00:34:32.440 leadership issue.

00:34:33.340 The premiers need to

00:34:34.380 start taking leadership

00:34:35.560 roles in these cross

00:34:37.420 government initiatives.

00:34:38.780 You need to form a

00:34:39.980 committee of cabinet.

00:34:40.800 It needs to have the

00:34:41.780 full power of cabinet

00:34:43.360 to make decisions and

00:34:45.020 to take action on

00:34:45.980 issues.

00:34:46.560 You need to have a

00:34:47.640 vision that that

00:34:48.460 committee of cabinet

00:34:49.340 can, can work

00:34:50.640 towards, and you

00:34:51.740 need to have, most

00:34:52.940 importantly, uh, the

00:34:54.860 reason why you need a

00:34:56.060 committee of cabinet

00:34:56.880 with the full legal

00:34:57.960 authority of cabinet

00:34:59.340 to make decisions and

00:35:00.940 have records of

00:35:01.700 decisions is because

00:35:02.600 that's how bureaucrats

00:35:04.120 take their marching

00:35:05.460 orders, right?

00:35:06.860 Uh, you know, if, if,

00:35:08.520 uh, if a premier goes

00:35:10.020 out to the microphone

00:35:11.500 and says, yeah, you

00:35:12.980 know, I think I'd like

00:35:13.840 to do this.

00:35:14.620 That isn't what gets

00:35:16.100 the bureaucrats into

00:35:17.500 action, right?

00:35:18.460 There's no legal

00:35:19.320 requirement on them

00:35:20.560 to take action and

00:35:21.620 there's no accountability

00:35:22.520 for them.

00:35:23.340 But when cabinet makes

00:35:24.680 a decision and there's

00:35:25.600 a record of decision

00:35:26.680 and it's given to the

00:35:27.920 cabinet secretary to

00:35:29.740 say, here is your

00:35:30.740 lawful order, execute,

00:35:33.100 they, then they must

00:35:34.460 take action.

00:35:35.760 So I, I, we're not

00:35:36.780 using the mechanisms

00:35:37.980 of government the way

00:35:39.040 that they need to be

00:35:39.820 used and we're not

00:35:40.740 using them in a

00:35:41.620 contemporary way to

00:35:43.340 tackle these big

00:35:44.300 issues.

00:35:44.820 And, and so, uh, you

00:35:47.200 know, it, it shouldn't

00:35:48.200 fall on any one

00:35:49.180 minister, right?

00:35:50.040 Like there's needs to

00:35:51.300 be input and decision

00:35:52.480 making from multiple

00:35:53.940 places to kind of

00:35:55.060 tackle these.

00:35:55.880 Secondly, I would say

00:35:56.840 once you get your

00:35:58.020 governance set up, uh,

00:35:59.800 and the, the 0.69

00:36:00.780 stakeholders and the

00:36:01.760 people who provide the

00:36:03.680 services, uh, in the

00:36:05.600 province, they can see

00:36:07.560 that there's a clear

00:36:08.660 decision-making body, uh,

00:36:11.020 which I think is

00:36:12.140 something that, you

00:36:13.540 know, needs to be, uh,

00:36:15.080 done immediately, uh,

00:36:17.100 then they will start,

00:36:18.260 you know, rowing, uh,

00:36:20.200 along with the

00:36:21.060 government and keeping

00:36:21.980 that cadence.

00:36:22.820 And that's how you make

00:36:23.780 progress.

00:36:24.800 Uh, we need

00:36:25.780 dramatically more

00:36:26.940 treatment.

00:36:28.580 Uh, we need places for

00:36:30.120 people to go and I

00:36:32.640 don't think that they

00:36:33.420 should, we need to be

00:36:34.180 smart about it.

00:36:35.040 I mean, in, in, in

00:36:35.980 Alberta, we didn't want 0.87

00:36:37.460 to just build treatment

00:36:38.900 centers.

00:36:39.300 We needed a new

00:36:40.280 mental model about how

00:36:42.420 we were going to

00:36:43.160 tackle, uh, uh, this

00:36:45.660 issue.

00:36:46.420 Uh, we didn't want to

00:36:47.880 have expensive buildings

00:36:49.540 where people go in for

00:36:50.560 30 days and they're

00:36:51.560 relatively ineffective.

00:36:52.960 We wanted to have

00:36:54.400 housing for people that

00:36:56.260 needed it.

00:36:57.140 We wanted to have, uh,

00:36:59.300 uh, very intensive,

00:37:01.060 uh, therapy for

00:37:03.020 substance use disorder,

00:37:04.100 you know, and, and

00:37:05.240 mental health, and it

00:37:06.120 needed to be long

00:37:07.040 enough up to a year.

00:37:08.220 So we built the

00:37:09.300 concept of a recovery

00:37:10.480 community, which is a

00:37:12.200 building about the size

00:37:13.180 of a football field.

00:37:14.260 They hold about a

00:37:14.940 hundred people.

00:37:16.460 You, uh, it's a model

00:37:17.800 of housing built on a

00:37:19.980 treatment chassis.

00:37:21.340 So people go in there

00:37:22.660 and it's individualized

00:37:23.900 care.

00:37:24.960 People take varying

00:37:26.200 lengths of time to, to

00:37:28.160 go through that and it

00:37:29.660 needs to be funded.

00:37:30.680 It's outrageous in this

00:37:32.500 country that somebody, uh,

00:37:35.660 whose child is dying

00:37:37.400 should have to take out

00:37:39.180 their MasterCard and

00:37:40.760 max it out in order to

00:37:42.900 get the care that their

00:37:44.000 loved one needs, right?

00:37:46.320 They, it, it should be no

00:37:47.560 different than if I break

00:37:48.660 my leg and go into the,

00:37:50.460 into the hospital to get

00:37:51.780 care.

00:37:52.860 And, and, and again,

00:37:54.400 doing this compared to the

00:37:57.400 consequences of, of what

00:37:59.420 is going on in our major

00:38:01.000 cities across the country

00:38:02.920 is pennies on the dollar

00:38:04.380 in Edmonton.

00:38:06.540 I'll just tell you a

00:38:07.020 story in, in, in downtown

00:38:08.400 Edmonton, um, we had one

00:38:11.880 company who wanted to come

00:38:14.440 and make a hundred million

00:38:16.360 dollar investment in

00:38:17.660 downtown Edmonton.

00:38:18.660 They came and walked

00:38:19.280 around, they got back on

00:38:20.300 their plane and they left

00:38:21.240 right.

00:38:22.340 So because of how it

00:38:23.500 looked.

00:38:23.940 Yeah, for sure.

00:38:24.700 They didn't want their

00:38:25.580 staff, uh, you know,

00:38:27.080 having to walk through

00:38:28.000 parking lots like this

00:38:29.080 that's going on all over

00:38:30.640 the place, untreated

00:38:32.100 addiction costs our

00:38:34.380 economy in Canada, $47

00:38:37.040 billion a year, 47

00:38:40.520 billion.

00:38:41.740 It's funny.

00:38:42.360 You picked on Edmonton

00:38:43.360 a little while ago.

00:38:44.660 Uh, Kevin Hassett, who

00:38:46.180 is, um, one of Trump's

00:38:47.960 top economic advisors.

00:38:49.480 He's got an office in the

00:38:50.840 white house.

00:38:51.420 Yeah.

00:38:52.100 He was on CNBC.

00:38:53.380 I'm not sure if you saw

00:38:54.580 this interview.

00:38:55.340 I did.

00:38:55.740 And he, he specifically

00:38:56.980 talked about being in

00:38:59.320 Edmonton walking out of

00:39:01.080 his hotel room and seeing

00:39:02.500 zombies wander the street.

00:39:04.340 And this is a guy who has

00:39:06.540 done a lot of business

00:39:07.420 over the years in Canada,

00:39:08.660 who loves coming up to

00:39:10.200 Canada to fish and said

00:39:11.420 he couldn't believe what

00:39:12.420 Edmonton looked like.

00:39:13.640 Yeah.

00:39:14.060 Well, look, I'll just

00:39:15.720 preface that.

00:39:16.800 I did see that and, and

00:39:18.680 it was noticed.

00:39:20.120 I will say that his

00:39:21.860 visit to Edmonton is, was

00:39:23.220 quite old.

00:39:24.760 Uh, it was years ago, uh,

00:39:27.340 that he made that visit

00:39:28.520 and, uh, and a lot has

00:39:29.940 changed and a lot of work

00:39:31.360 has gone into it, but

00:39:32.020 there's still a lot.

00:39:33.160 Look, there's a lot of

00:39:33.920 work that, that needs to

00:39:35.520 happen.

00:39:35.860 And, and, you know, when I

00:39:37.100 was chief of staff, uh, I

00:39:38.780 would love to have spent a

00:39:40.020 hundred percent of my

00:39:41.080 time, you know, focusing

00:39:42.760 on this.

00:39:43.420 But the reality is, is

00:39:45.420 that, uh, you know, I, I'll

00:39:47.260 be quite blunt.

00:39:48.400 50% of my time when I was

00:39:50.320 working on this file was

00:39:51.880 spent fighting back

00:39:53.060 lunatic drug activists.

00:39:54.720 Uh, and, and so, you

00:39:57.340 know, 50% of your time is

00:39:58.860 spent making progress.

00:40:00.300 I would love to not have

00:40:01.860 that fight and, and be

00:40:03.280 able to, you know, go all

00:40:05.060 in, but this is the nature

00:40:06.300 of democracy.

00:40:07.980 So if they, they, they 0.98

00:40:09.140 fix their governance

00:40:10.120 structures, they build a

00:40:11.460 proper model.

00:40:12.640 I like what I'm seeing out

00:40:14.480 of Alberta's model.

00:40:15.400 It's much better than the,

00:40:16.800 uh, let's give them more

00:40:17.960 opioids model of British 0.97

00:40:19.500 Columbia.

00:40:19.860 Let's decriminalize like

00:40:21.360 British Columbia.

00:40:22.240 They do that.

00:40:24.080 Do they also have to, you

00:40:25.460 mentioned earlier, the, uh,

00:40:27.140 the drug units, 75 down to

00:40:29.300 11 in Vancouver.

00:40:30.800 Do they need to start

00:40:32.620 funding police units to go

00:40:35.980 after the organized crime?

00:40:37.380 Because they, I mean, these

00:40:38.180 are big multinational crime

00:40:40.480 syndicates.

00:40:41.480 Uh, it, you know, you, you

00:40:43.260 can't have a beat cop to

00:40:44.420 looking after that.

00:40:45.580 Right.

00:40:46.280 But, but, and this, and

00:40:47.520 for sure, this is my point.

00:40:48.640 Like I, I, I don't want to

00:40:50.220 hear out of politicians

00:40:51.380 anymore, uh, that, you

00:40:53.580 know, we're going to fund,

00:40:54.600 you know, 75 more cops on

00:40:56.400 the street that, you know,

00:40:57.860 look, that's great.

00:40:58.600 And the, the, we should

00:40:59.940 have that too, but the, the,

00:41:02.060 you know, the police

00:41:02.880 presence that command

00:41:04.380 presence for sure makes,

00:41:07.020 uh, Jane and John citizen

00:41:09.520 and myself feel safe when

00:41:12.440 they're around and that's

00:41:13.500 not nothing, but that's not

00:41:15.820 how you get to the core of

00:41:18.900 these issues that are going

00:41:20.480 on.

00:41:20.920 Look, the criminal,

00:41:21.800 criminals that are running

00:41:23.400 sophisticated criminal

00:41:24.620 networks, uh, in terms of,

00:41:27.020 uh, you know, drug

00:41:28.020 involved networks that are

00:41:29.400 transnational and trans

00:41:31.000 border drug trafficking are

00:41:32.380 incredibly sophisticated, uh,

00:41:35.080 actors, uh, and no beat

00:41:38.280 cop is going, they could be

00:41:39.600 standing right next to them.

00:41:40.860 They'd never even know it

00:41:41.940 because they're there.

00:41:42.920 That's not what their

00:41:43.800 program to look for.

00:41:45.040 So we, I want to hear more

00:41:47.280 from Canada's premiers about

00:41:49.780 funding specialized units.

00:41:51.740 I want to see more, uh, human

00:41:54.480 intelligence, more source

00:41:56.400 handling, uh, more specialized

00:41:58.760 units that are looking into

00:42:00.460 these things.

00:42:01.260 Uh, and I, look, I, I recognize

00:42:03.380 that we don't have the ability

00:42:05.600 often to speak publicly about,

00:42:07.840 about operational, uh, uh, issues.

00:42:11.500 Like we don't get deep into

00:42:12.960 operational issues, but that

00:42:14.760 shouldn't prevent us from

00:42:16.100 talking about what's going to

00:42:17.480 be required to move the needle

00:42:19.160 and put, you know, criminal

00:42:21.580 organizations like that on

00:42:22.900 notice to say, like, we're

00:42:25.580 going to do whatever we can to

00:42:26.940 disrupt what's going on.

00:42:28.860 I, I, I, there was a mayor, uh,

00:42:32.400 you know, and I, I used the

00:42:34.320 analogy cause I, I get asked

00:42:35.920 this question a lot across the

00:42:37.620 country.

00:42:37.980 It was a mayor in, in BC who

00:42:41.020 said, you know, like, you know,

00:42:43.200 what can, what can we do as a

00:42:44.620 city, uh, to, to, to, to

00:42:47.340 improve services and, and repel

00:42:49.960 criminals?

00:42:50.380 And I said, look, I mean, you,

00:42:52.260 you already have the formula.

00:42:53.760 You do it every day in your

00:42:55.540 economic development arms, right?

00:42:58.740 When you create the conditions,

00:43:00.820 uh, for business to flourish, uh,

00:43:04.460 by lowering taxes and, and

00:43:06.920 making, you know, provisions for

00:43:09.180 special zones and this, that

00:43:10.900 thing, lo and behold, business

00:43:12.820 flourishes.

00:43:13.600 Well, you know what?

00:43:14.920 We made business flourish for

00:43:17.620 drug, for drug crime, right?

00:43:19.760 Oh yes.

00:43:20.280 We created the conditions just

00:43:23.140 like an economic development arm

00:43:25.200 would do.

00:43:26.160 We removed the consequences, you

00:43:28.660 know, we brought in supply, we

00:43:30.880 took away any impediments that

00:43:32.600 they would have to do business.

00:43:34.040 And so it shouldn't be a shock

00:43:35.900 to anybody that business

00:43:37.180 flourished, right?

00:43:39.540 I mean, these are the same

00:43:40.960 things we do when we want any

00:43:42.640 other business to flourish.

00:43:44.640 Except it was the wrong one.

00:43:46.020 Marshall Smith, thanks so much

00:43:47.900 for the time today.

00:43:48.880 Great to see you, Brian.

00:43:49.780 All the best.

00:43:50.820 Full Comment is a post-media

00:43:52.400 podcast.

00:43:53.040 My name's Brian Lilly, your

00:43:54.040 host.

00:43:54.480 This episode was produced by

00:43:55.820 Andre Pru, theme music by

00:43:57.580 Bryce Hall.

00:43:58.440 Kevin Libin is the executive

00:43:59.700 producer.

00:44:00.500 You can subscribe and please do

00:44:02.200 subscribe to Full Comment on

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00:44:11.640 Thanks for listening.

00:44:12.660 Until next time, I'm Brian Lilly.

00:44:14.000 We'll see you next time.

Full Comment - March 03, 2025

How Canada turned itself into a fentanyl playground

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