Full Comment - March 03, 2025


How Canada turned itself into a fentanyl playground


Episode Stats

Length

44 minutes

Words per Minute

152.92961

Word Count

6,841

Sentence Count

370

Misogynist Sentences

2

Hate Speech Sentences

7


Summary

In this episode, I speak with Marshall Smith, former Chief of Staff to Alberta Premier Daniel Smith, about the fentanyl crisis in his home province of Alberta. We talk about how to deal with the problem, and how to solve it in our own communities.


Transcript

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00:01:29.800 Fentanyl, it is a word, it is an issue that is front and centre right now,
00:01:39.380 thanks to a certain man named Donald J. Trump,
00:01:42.320 the occupant of the White House in Washington, D.C.
00:01:45.060 But fentanyl has been a problem in Canada for a long time.
00:01:49.380 In fact, you look at any major city, even smaller cities,
00:01:52.660 smaller communities across the country,
00:01:54.960 the crime that you see, the homelessness that you see,
00:01:57.200 the homeless encampments, all of this is related in one way or another to fentanyl,
00:02:01.980 a drug that started showing up in a big way around 2016,
00:02:06.460 spread across the country.
00:02:08.060 More than 49,000 people have died of overdoses from this drug.
00:02:12.140 Hello and welcome to the Full Comment Podcast,
00:02:14.160 and today we're going to be talking about how we deal with fentanyl within Canada.
00:02:18.880 Trump has highlighted the issue, he's gotten us talking about it,
00:02:22.200 but how do we solve the problem in our own country for our own people?
00:02:27.880 Marshall Smith is the former Chief of Staff to Alberta Premier Daniel Smith.
00:02:32.280 He's also someone who dealt with addiction himself and turned his life around.
00:02:36.460 The Alberta model, which doesn't include giving addicts free opioids,
00:02:41.400 has been focused on addiction treatment, on full recovery,
00:02:45.980 and it's showing good results.
00:02:47.340 But this is about more than just addiction treatment.
00:02:50.860 This is a police issue.
00:02:52.020 This is a crime issue.
00:02:53.280 So how do we solve this?
00:02:55.480 How do we get the government, wherever we live, working properly for us?
00:03:00.220 That's why I wanted to reach out to Marshall Smith.
00:03:02.740 So Marshall, let me just jump in off the top.
00:03:05.660 Why did it take Donald Trump talking about fentanyl on the Canadian border
00:03:10.060 to get us to realize how bad of a problem this is in Canada?
00:03:14.580 We'll deal with the border issue in a moment,
00:03:16.280 but within our own communities, this has been a devastating crisis.
00:03:21.840 Well, look, Brian, it's great to be here,
00:03:23.600 and I appreciate the opportunity to talk about this.
00:03:26.660 I think you're right.
00:03:27.460 I think that often, just like with addiction itself,
00:03:31.520 it takes some sort of catalyzing event to spur on change,
00:03:37.060 and that is certainly what we've seen happen
00:03:39.720 in and around the pressure that Canada is now under
00:03:43.180 to deal with the fentanyl and addiction crisis.
00:03:46.940 And I think that the answer to your direct question is,
00:03:49.780 why did it take that?
00:03:51.060 Is it, A, it's the nature of the addicted system.
00:03:55.040 It will continue unabated until something acts on it
00:03:59.840 that is very powerful to make it change its course.
00:04:03.740 And B, it's about leadership, right?
00:04:06.220 We have not had the type of leadership on this file in Canada,
00:04:13.320 with, of course, I would say the exception of Alberta,
00:04:16.660 to plan and execute on major systemic change.
00:04:23.620 That's not to say, and I want to be really clear about this,
00:04:26.520 that's not to say that people aren't doing anything about it.
00:04:29.460 It's not to say that there aren't pockets of good work.
00:04:31.920 And it's not to say that, you know,
00:04:34.420 premiers across the country don't rank this as a top priority for them.
00:04:41.740 I just think that many of them don't know how to lead
00:04:45.520 in an environment of making this kind of change.
00:04:48.460 You look at something like the opioid deaths in British Columbia,
00:04:54.820 and just because they're always off the top of my head,
00:04:56.880 I look at the coroner's office numbers monthly.
00:05:02.060 And you go back a decade, 2014,
00:05:06.480 there were, I believe the number is 374 opioid deaths in 2014.
00:05:12.620 And it goes up a little bit in 15 and 16.
00:05:15.880 And then that's when fentanyl really kicks in as the preferred opioid.
00:05:21.340 My mistake, I just pulled the numbers up.
00:05:22.900 It's 370.
00:05:25.820 It, the high was 2023 with 2,578.
00:05:31.680 Last year, well, there was a big drop to only 2,253.
00:05:35.600 That's just British Columbia.
00:05:37.960 Alberta's been heavily hit.
00:05:39.380 Ontario's been heavily hit.
00:05:40.660 And it slowly started to move out to the other provinces as well.
00:05:44.800 This is something that we should have been dealing with
00:05:49.040 in terms of trying to get a handle on this drug
00:05:53.160 and its nasty impacts within our community,
00:05:55.480 from overdose deaths to rising gun crime rates
00:05:58.920 to all the other ills that go with it.
00:06:02.100 And it seemed like for the longest time,
00:06:04.780 the only acceptable path was the one that you
00:06:09.360 and Premier Smith rejected in Alberta.
00:06:12.580 The only acceptable path was give them more drugs.
00:06:16.160 Right, right, right.
00:06:19.140 Look, this is a conversation about leadership.
00:06:23.680 And, you know, I've spent,
00:06:24.960 since I retired from public service,
00:06:27.640 have spent, you know, a lot of time
00:06:29.640 forming my thoughts on what it was
00:06:32.140 that I wanted to talk to leaders in the country
00:06:34.200 about on this issue.
00:06:35.740 And, of course, we can spend forever
00:06:38.540 debating the merits of, you know,
00:06:41.260 of this program versus that program.
00:06:43.580 And I'm happy to do that.
00:06:45.180 But I think the first conversation that we need to have
00:06:47.860 is, you know,
00:06:49.220 what does taking this seriously look like?
00:06:52.260 And I've had many conversations with Premiers
00:06:56.580 from coast to coast,
00:06:58.280 many in the middle of the night,
00:06:59.940 you know, as they sort of call around for,
00:07:02.480 you know, bits of advice.
00:07:05.300 And I've often said to them,
00:07:07.280 you know,
00:07:07.820 you're not taking this seriously.
00:07:09.860 And they seem offended
00:07:11.200 when I say that.
00:07:13.280 They seem really taken aback.
00:07:14.860 But the reality is
00:07:17.200 when a government in Canada
00:07:20.120 wants to show the public,
00:07:24.840 and not just for show,
00:07:26.320 but in reality,
00:07:28.160 that they're taking an issue seriously,
00:07:31.740 there's a couple of things that they do, right?
00:07:35.280 First of all,
00:07:35.940 they put themselves in charge.
00:07:38.700 They form a committee of cabinet.
00:07:41.740 They say this is a cross-government initiative.
00:07:44.860 We're going to make decisions in this body.
00:07:49.000 We're going to put the bureaucrats
00:07:50.760 around the ministers at the table.
00:07:53.280 We're going to give them direction.
00:07:55.600 There's going to be a record of decision.
00:07:57.560 They're going to execute,
00:07:58.740 and we're going to hold them accountable,
00:08:00.000 and we're going to track the outcomes,
00:08:02.560 and we're going to have a vision.
00:08:05.020 That's what taking it seriously looks like.
00:08:09.040 What I've seen,
00:08:10.540 and this is from, you know,
00:08:11.980 observing the Ford government closely here in Ontario,
00:08:14.600 but also looking at what other governments have done,
00:08:16.980 it seems like the harm reduction advocates
00:08:20.280 had really taken hold of the agenda,
00:08:25.660 and within the bureaucracies,
00:08:28.940 you know, I've been told there was pushback.
00:08:31.240 I mean, the Ford government recently decided
00:08:32.900 to close consumption sites,
00:08:35.920 which were also doubling,
00:08:37.620 thanks to the federal government,
00:08:39.120 not due to any policy of the provincial government.
00:08:42.360 They were also doubling as safe supply sites,
00:08:46.000 quote-unquote.
00:08:47.580 They closed 10 of them near schools and daycares,
00:08:51.420 and instead,
00:08:52.540 several of them are transferring into what's called heart hubs,
00:08:55.580 full addiction wraparound services,
00:08:58.120 all of that.
00:08:59.620 It took a lot of effort
00:09:01.540 and political capital within the government
00:09:03.980 just to get that kind of change,
00:09:06.960 because the bureaucracy is so entrenched
00:09:09.880 in keeping things as they were,
00:09:12.840 a safe injection site to, you know,
00:09:14.500 wherever you can get them,
00:09:15.860 a place to hand out opioid pills,
00:09:17.800 and it got so bad.
00:09:19.620 The famous one in Toronto,
00:09:21.340 the South Riverdale Community Health Centre,
00:09:22.960 where the shooting happened
00:09:24.300 when mother of two was tragically killed
00:09:26.980 just walking down the street.
00:09:29.500 It had gotten so bad
00:09:30.920 that they said right on their website
00:09:32.320 that even though they're required
00:09:34.400 by virtue of their license
00:09:36.660 to be offering people a path to treatment,
00:09:39.160 it actually said on their website
00:09:41.240 that they had no expectation
00:09:43.100 of you ever stopping using drugs.
00:09:45.480 Yeah, that's right.
00:09:46.620 That's right.
00:09:47.340 That's right.
00:09:47.720 So, I mean,
00:09:48.520 how did you deal with that
00:09:50.560 when you were in the Alberta government?
00:09:51.940 I'm sure you had some of the same issues.
00:09:54.520 Well, listen,
00:09:55.100 I'll continue on sort of where I left off
00:10:00.320 because it's part of the same answer.
00:10:02.620 You have to take,
00:10:03.720 you have to have a serious governance mechanism
00:10:06.460 in place, right?
00:10:08.760 You need not just,
00:10:11.060 this problem is too big
00:10:12.680 to rest on any one minister's shoulder.
00:10:16.480 It crosses all kinds of boundaries,
00:10:18.900 public safety,
00:10:19.780 indigenous relations,
00:10:21.740 justice,
00:10:22.500 education,
00:10:23.580 health,
00:10:24.120 mental health and addiction,
00:10:25.940 you know,
00:10:26.200 corrections,
00:10:27.200 policing.
00:10:29.000 This is too,
00:10:30.680 this has gotten too out of control
00:10:32.820 to put on the back of any one minister.
00:10:37.640 And because of the nature of addiction
00:10:41.980 and working in addicted systems,
00:10:45.100 the people who work in them
00:10:46.580 become affected
00:10:47.780 by the crisis of addiction
00:10:51.360 that they work in every day.
00:10:52.600 There was a great saying
00:10:53.800 that I used to tell the kind of patients
00:10:56.520 in treatment all the time
00:10:58.220 and I would say to them,
00:10:59.460 what you live in,
00:11:00.480 you learn.
00:11:01.960 What you learn,
00:11:03.200 you practice.
00:11:03.860 what you practice,
00:11:05.580 you become.
00:11:07.160 And what you become
00:11:08.280 has consequences.
00:11:10.700 And Brian,
00:11:11.780 look at the consequences
00:11:13.700 of what we've become.
00:11:16.100 And the answer to your question
00:11:17.620 about the bureaucracies
00:11:18.820 is just that,
00:11:20.120 right?
00:11:20.740 They,
00:11:21.260 the only voices
00:11:22.900 that they're interested in hearing
00:11:25.280 are the ones with similar views
00:11:27.640 to themselves.
00:11:28.380 And it's not just
00:11:30.360 that they,
00:11:30.880 that they passively ignore
00:11:32.600 voices that say
00:11:34.380 we should be doing
00:11:35.140 something different.
00:11:35.980 They are absolutely hostile,
00:11:38.880 right?
00:11:39.200 They are absolutely,
00:11:40.580 vociferously hostile
00:11:42.100 towards any notion
00:11:44.420 that we should tell people
00:11:47.200 that,
00:11:47.800 that it's probably a bad idea
00:11:49.660 that you shoot fentanyl
00:11:51.020 into your neck,
00:11:51.840 right?
00:11:52.820 And that you should come off of that
00:11:54.820 and that there's a better life for you.
00:11:56.740 And for whatever reason,
00:11:58.360 the people who share these views
00:12:00.860 have taken up post
00:12:02.800 in public health agencies
00:12:05.480 across the country
00:12:06.660 and,
00:12:08.240 and sort of metastasized
00:12:10.800 into health bureaucracies
00:12:13.800 and,
00:12:14.180 and health authorities.
00:12:15.160 That,
00:12:15.640 that's where they have,
00:12:16.900 they have taken up post.
00:12:18.040 And to a certain extent,
00:12:19.420 academia.
00:12:21.820 This is an issue though
00:12:23.480 that you mentioned earlier,
00:12:25.860 ministers of public safety,
00:12:27.680 health,
00:12:28.000 and so on.
00:12:28.800 I mean,
00:12:29.200 this is a huge public safety issue.
00:12:32.580 Yes.
00:12:32.840 We have Chinese triads,
00:12:34.980 Mexican cartels,
00:12:36.640 biker gangs,
00:12:38.560 all of them trading in this stuff.
00:12:40.280 And it was probably around
00:12:42.420 2017 or so.
00:12:44.920 I was living in Ottawa
00:12:45.960 and was noticing the up,
00:12:48.200 uh,
00:12:48.680 uptick in gun crime.
00:12:49.880 And so I talked to,
00:12:52.140 uh,
00:12:53.340 I talked to,
00:12:54.240 uh,
00:12:54.580 Ottawa police chief,
00:12:55.560 Charles Bordolo,
00:12:56.280 and I said,
00:12:56.600 what's going on?
00:12:57.420 And,
00:12:57.780 and he started talking to me
00:12:58.880 about fentanyl entering
00:13:00.180 the Ottawa market.
00:13:01.260 You know,
00:13:01.880 arrived there late 2016,
00:13:03.740 2017.
00:13:04.820 And he said,
00:13:05.900 this stuff is so valuable to them
00:13:07.980 that if they used a fist before,
00:13:11.000 they use a knife now.
00:13:11.840 If they use the knife before,
00:13:12.840 they're using guns now.
00:13:14.180 And he said,
00:13:14.980 everyone is arming up.
00:13:16.480 Uh,
00:13:16.940 that,
00:13:17.280 that was in sleepy Ottawa.
00:13:19.000 Uh,
00:13:19.480 we have had a,
00:13:20.540 a huge uptick in gun crime
00:13:22.380 pretty much everywhere
00:13:23.320 that this stuff has shown up.
00:13:25.320 That,
00:13:26.060 that should have been
00:13:26.920 an impetus enough
00:13:27.920 to,
00:13:28.680 to jump in,
00:13:30.080 to say,
00:13:31.020 okay,
00:13:31.300 we need to,
00:13:32.200 we need to take
00:13:32.780 the organized crime element
00:13:34.740 and the street crime element
00:13:36.440 seriously.
00:13:37.920 How,
00:13:38.440 how serious is the crime
00:13:39.960 part of it?
00:13:40.740 Because I'm sure when you were
00:13:41.980 chief of staff to the premier
00:13:43.540 that you would get briefings
00:13:44.740 and see statistics.
00:13:46.300 How,
00:13:47.260 how serious is that aspect of it
00:13:49.600 that we don't talk enough about?
00:13:51.440 Yeah,
00:13:51.580 it's,
00:13:51.860 it's incredibly serious.
00:13:54.020 Um,
00:13:54.620 and I,
00:13:55.520 and I think that it's so serious
00:13:57.380 that,
00:13:58.000 that often,
00:13:58.860 you know,
00:13:59.780 the realities of what that looks like
00:14:02.180 on the streets of Canada
00:14:03.460 are kept muted
00:14:04.700 because what there is to say
00:14:08.480 about it when you open the kimono
00:14:10.380 is very scary.
00:14:13.540 uh,
00:14:13.940 automatic weapons,
00:14:15.280 human trafficking,
00:14:16.300 you know,
00:14:17.200 the,
00:14:17.380 the sort of atrocities
00:14:18.840 that are going on.
00:14:20.700 Uh,
00:14:21.280 this is the consequences
00:14:23.120 of what we've become
00:14:24.660 because we've allowed
00:14:26.840 the public policy conversation
00:14:29.000 to become hijacked
00:14:31.240 by drug user unions,
00:14:33.200 uh,
00:14:34.540 and,
00:14:35.240 and,
00:14:35.880 uh,
00:14:36.240 and people who think
00:14:37.480 that we should,
00:14:38.220 uh,
00:14:38.920 take all of the money
00:14:39.860 away from the police,
00:14:40.960 uh,
00:14:41.920 and that they should go away
00:14:43.280 and that people should be allowed
00:14:44.720 to use drugs
00:14:45.600 whenever and wherever they want
00:14:47.700 and if they don't have any
00:14:48.720 that we should give them to them.
00:14:50.620 And,
00:14:51.220 and I gotta tell you,
00:14:52.420 Brian,
00:14:52.940 I have to tell you,
00:14:54.400 uh,
00:14:55.960 who's at fault for that?
00:14:57.240 Uh,
00:14:58.840 it's not drug addicts
00:15:00.440 that are at fault for that.
00:15:02.340 Uh,
00:15:02.740 and I,
00:15:03.160 look,
00:15:03.320 I'm gonna take a lot
00:15:04.060 of criticism
00:15:04.700 from,
00:15:05.380 from my,
00:15:06.100 uh,
00:15:06.820 conservative friends
00:15:07.940 across the country,
00:15:09.140 but I would dare to say
00:15:11.540 that,
00:15:13.060 you know,
00:15:13.480 drug addicts
00:15:14.160 have a health problem.
00:15:15.400 They're really sick,
00:15:16.600 uh,
00:15:17.740 and,
00:15:18.140 and we can have a lot
00:15:19.040 of conversations
00:15:19.740 about how they became
00:15:21.080 that way,
00:15:21.660 but the reality is
00:15:22.820 their brains are hijacked
00:15:24.780 by highly potent chemicals.
00:15:27.640 Their job
00:15:28.840 is to go from A to B
00:15:31.180 and get drugs
00:15:32.020 and use drugs.
00:15:32.940 That is their life.
00:15:34.100 That's what they do.
00:15:36.320 They're the only ones
00:15:37.720 in this equation
00:15:38.500 who are doing their job.
00:15:41.080 It's on the rest of us
00:15:43.020 in the community
00:15:43.920 to set boundaries,
00:15:45.800 to say,
00:15:47.280 we're not doing this anymore.
00:15:49.200 Enough is enough.
00:15:50.480 We're gonna demand
00:15:52.260 the political courage,
00:15:53.720 leadership,
00:15:54.160 and vision
00:15:54.560 to make change.
00:15:55.820 We're gonna be okay
00:15:57.040 with putting up some bucks
00:15:58.440 to build treatment centers,
00:16:01.200 to build therapeutic living units
00:16:03.480 in our correctional centers,
00:16:04.660 to actually do a good job
00:16:06.860 at this,
00:16:07.700 what we should have been doing
00:16:08.960 for decades
00:16:09.860 that we've failed to do.
00:16:12.260 Instead,
00:16:13.400 we have done nothing
00:16:14.660 and we've expected nothing.
00:16:17.160 We carry our Starbucks,
00:16:18.840 we walk down the sidewalk,
00:16:21.140 we step over homeless people,
00:16:23.660 blissfully carrying on our day,
00:16:26.360 ignoring the problem.
00:16:29.900 And so,
00:16:31.000 look,
00:16:31.980 at some point,
00:16:34.060 we can sit around
00:16:35.700 and we can point fingers
00:16:37.000 at those homeless drug addicts
00:16:38.720 that are out there all the time.
00:16:40.560 And I'm not removing responsibility.
00:16:42.680 In fact,
00:16:43.540 I'm one of the biggest advocates
00:16:45.480 in the country
00:16:46.100 to say
00:16:46.580 that they have to take responsibility
00:16:48.560 for their health.
00:16:50.160 But we have a responsibility
00:16:51.800 to set the standards
00:16:53.900 in our community
00:16:54.780 and to make sure
00:16:56.360 that the people
00:16:57.060 who are advising
00:16:58.200 the government
00:16:59.520 and the governments themselves
00:17:01.380 are putting forward
00:17:03.400 robust and realistic visions
00:17:05.760 for how we're going
00:17:07.720 to keep control
00:17:09.560 of the social contract
00:17:11.080 and to make sure
00:17:13.060 that there are outcomes
00:17:14.560 and that we're moving
00:17:15.320 in that direction.
00:17:18.620 We've got
00:17:19.420 the homeless aspect of it,
00:17:22.580 we've got the addictions
00:17:23.400 aspect of it,
00:17:24.320 but we've also got
00:17:25.880 just bad policy.
00:17:27.420 So,
00:17:27.600 you were talking about
00:17:29.260 therapeutic treatment centers
00:17:31.960 in jails.
00:17:33.220 Instead,
00:17:35.000 we're getting reports
00:17:35.740 out of parliament
00:17:36.240 calling for decriminalization
00:17:37.840 of drugs
00:17:38.440 or putting safe injection sites
00:17:40.440 in jails
00:17:42.320 to,
00:17:43.940 you know,
00:17:44.320 just keep them moving along.
00:17:46.120 The drugs are illegal,
00:17:47.100 but you want a safe injection site
00:17:48.460 in there.
00:17:48.740 How are they getting the drugs?
00:17:50.200 Oh,
00:17:50.380 they're smuggling them in,
00:17:51.320 so breaking the law again.
00:17:54.600 This is madness.
00:17:56.680 I agree,
00:17:57.680 there should be,
00:17:58.560 you should be getting treatment
00:18:00.160 while you're in jail.
00:18:01.100 We haven't been doing that.
00:18:03.440 We've had decades
00:18:05.140 of academics
00:18:06.000 pushing
00:18:06.560 what I think
00:18:07.920 are
00:18:08.400 garbage
00:18:09.860 advocacy,
00:18:11.480 activist studies,
00:18:12.500 to get politicians
00:18:14.000 to move in this direction.
00:18:15.340 And we've been listening
00:18:16.320 to bad advice
00:18:17.400 for years.
00:18:18.480 Right.
00:18:19.380 Right.
00:18:19.700 Look,
00:18:19.960 let's talk about corrections.
00:18:22.740 You know,
00:18:23.400 in the Alberta recovery model
00:18:25.800 that we've built,
00:18:26.980 which,
00:18:27.220 by the way,
00:18:27.600 we're seeing
00:18:28.280 very tremendous
00:18:29.420 early results,
00:18:30.200 we've cut fatal overdoses
00:18:31.680 by 40%
00:18:33.020 year over year.
00:18:34.880 It's tremendous.
00:18:36.140 There's a lot of work
00:18:37.040 by a lot of people
00:18:37.960 that's gone into that.
00:18:39.660 Corrections has been
00:18:40.600 a big focus of ours.
00:18:42.620 And,
00:18:43.080 you know,
00:18:43.480 I often tell,
00:18:44.860 you know,
00:18:45.160 some of the folks
00:18:45.820 that are working
00:18:46.880 in our system
00:18:47.560 that they have
00:18:48.240 a remarkable grasp
00:18:49.480 of the obvious
00:18:50.480 in building out
00:18:52.780 our system,
00:18:53.480 which is to say,
00:18:54.780 we took
00:18:55.560 living units,
00:18:56.920 which hold
00:18:58.580 about,
00:18:59.000 you know,
00:18:59.360 30 or 40
00:19:00.380 inmates
00:19:01.360 out of each
00:19:03.200 correctional center
00:19:04.100 and we turned them
00:19:05.760 into treatment centers.
00:19:06.900 So treatment centers
00:19:08.380 inside correctional centers.
00:19:10.880 And we staffed them
00:19:12.860 with therapists
00:19:14.740 and peer workers.
00:19:16.220 And,
00:19:17.820 you know,
00:19:18.000 there's lineups
00:19:18.820 to get into
00:19:19.660 these units.
00:19:22.380 Not because it's
00:19:23.520 an easier ride.
00:19:24.960 And in fact,
00:19:26.280 to my friends
00:19:27.420 who are listening
00:19:28.640 to this,
00:19:29.080 who are law and order,
00:19:30.360 you know,
00:19:30.700 kind of tough
00:19:31.420 on drugs
00:19:32.540 advocates,
00:19:33.960 which is fine.
00:19:35.980 I'm all for being
00:19:36.880 tough on drugs.
00:19:38.460 I think that
00:19:39.400 conservatives
00:19:40.060 have incorrectly
00:19:42.200 identified
00:19:43.240 the corollary
00:19:46.140 between being
00:19:47.020 tough on drugs
00:19:48.180 and being hard
00:19:49.920 on people.
00:19:53.340 I want to get
00:19:54.760 people treatment
00:19:55.500 and I want to
00:19:56.420 bust the gangs.
00:19:58.160 Well,
00:19:58.460 listen,
00:19:58.760 you're talking
00:19:59.200 about different
00:20:00.140 things.
00:20:00.760 I mean,
00:20:01.100 the therapeutic
00:20:02.940 correctional
00:20:03.940 units that we
00:20:05.100 have is some
00:20:07.400 of the toughest
00:20:08.140 time that you
00:20:09.160 can serve.
00:20:11.000 Why?
00:20:11.800 These look,
00:20:12.860 in a regular
00:20:13.880 living unit
00:20:14.540 in jail,
00:20:15.700 okay,
00:20:16.500 you wake up
00:20:17.280 in the morning,
00:20:18.200 maybe you make
00:20:18.900 your bed,
00:20:20.140 eat some chocolate
00:20:20.920 bars,
00:20:21.440 have breakfast,
00:20:22.380 go to the gym,
00:20:23.800 watch some TV,
00:20:24.980 have a nap,
00:20:26.220 you know,
00:20:26.580 talk on the phone.
00:20:28.040 That's the daily
00:20:29.060 life of an inmate.
00:20:31.000 In a therapeutic
00:20:32.820 living unit,
00:20:33.940 they're up at
00:20:34.960 7 a.m.,
00:20:36.040 bed made tight,
00:20:37.280 hospital corners,
00:20:38.960 they're sitting
00:20:39.840 in a chair in a
00:20:40.860 circle with their
00:20:41.720 therapists,
00:20:43.220 confronting their
00:20:44.020 issues,
00:20:44.880 facing themselves
00:20:45.900 and their peers.
00:20:47.700 And I'm not
00:20:48.660 talking about just
00:20:49.600 filling in tick
00:20:51.020 box forms,
00:20:51.800 I'm talking about
00:20:52.780 butts in seats,
00:20:54.100 doing the ugly
00:20:54.880 crying,
00:20:56.420 transforming
00:20:57.180 yourself,
00:20:58.940 right?
00:20:59.220 and that
00:20:59.980 goes on
00:21:00.620 for 10
00:21:01.380 hours
00:21:02.140 a day.
00:21:04.520 So I
00:21:05.460 would put
00:21:05.940 to you,
00:21:06.940 what does
00:21:08.360 tough on drugs
00:21:09.380 look like,
00:21:10.480 right?
00:21:10.900 If I had it
00:21:11.940 my way,
00:21:13.040 every correctional
00:21:14.280 unit in the
00:21:15.320 country would
00:21:16.780 be a therapeutic
00:21:17.480 living unit.
00:21:18.160 As a taxpayer,
00:21:20.040 I think I have
00:21:21.200 the right to
00:21:21.760 demand a return
00:21:22.660 on my investment.
00:21:23.580 I have no
00:21:24.300 problem investing
00:21:25.320 in getting
00:21:26.460 people who go
00:21:27.240 in,
00:21:27.980 you know,
00:21:28.200 they've committed
00:21:28.640 a crime,
00:21:29.260 they're there
00:21:29.640 as punishment,
00:21:30.860 not for punishment,
00:21:32.260 they go in there,
00:21:33.340 what are we going
00:21:33.860 to do with them?
00:21:34.480 You've got addicts
00:21:35.360 and alcoholics,
00:21:36.380 they're all pulled
00:21:37.160 up in one spot.
00:21:38.660 What a horrible
00:21:39.700 opportunity missed
00:21:42.160 if we're not
00:21:43.600 going in there
00:21:44.320 and doing things
00:21:45.140 like this.
00:21:46.500 What's the
00:21:47.300 cost differential
00:21:48.520 between a
00:21:49.600 regular jail
00:21:50.560 and one of
00:21:51.080 these therapeutic?
00:21:51.960 Is it,
00:21:52.740 you know,
00:21:53.700 several times
00:21:55.160 higher than
00:21:55.800 just,
00:21:57.020 you know,
00:21:57.540 warehousing people?
00:21:59.340 Well,
00:21:59.580 not at all.
00:22:00.300 I mean,
00:22:00.580 let's let,
00:22:01.560 no,
00:22:01.880 it's pennies
00:22:03.520 on the dollar.
00:22:04.320 I mean,
00:22:05.020 you know,
00:22:05.260 we run one
00:22:05.940 of these living
00:22:07.600 units for maybe
00:22:08.560 a million
00:22:09.300 one a year
00:22:10.420 and one
00:22:12.940 of those
00:22:13.540 inmates can do
00:22:14.500 a million
00:22:14.940 one a year
00:22:15.520 in damage,
00:22:16.840 you know,
00:22:17.240 in the community
00:22:17.900 easily,
00:22:18.640 just one
00:22:19.400 of them.
00:22:20.780 So,
00:22:21.260 you know,
00:22:21.920 and we're doing
00:22:22.560 hundreds and
00:22:23.560 hundreds of
00:22:24.300 them.
00:22:25.180 So,
00:22:25.500 no,
00:22:25.740 it's very,
00:22:26.860 very inexpensive.
00:22:29.520 Think about all
00:22:30.340 of the things
00:22:30.800 that you don't
00:22:31.800 have to build.
00:22:32.960 You don't have
00:22:33.720 to build a
00:22:34.600 building,
00:22:35.360 right?
00:22:35.720 You already
00:22:36.200 have one.
00:22:37.160 They already
00:22:37.740 have a bed
00:22:38.200 to sleep in.
00:22:38.880 You're already
00:22:39.480 feeding them.
00:22:40.260 They already
00:22:40.780 have medical
00:22:41.400 services.
00:22:42.180 They already
00:22:42.680 have all
00:22:43.380 of these things
00:22:43.940 that are already
00:22:44.640 there that you
00:22:45.900 don't have to
00:22:46.820 spend any more
00:22:47.900 money on.
00:22:48.960 Just put the
00:22:49.660 therapist in
00:22:50.520 there,
00:22:51.060 right?
00:22:51.400 And have a
00:22:52.320 tough program.
00:22:53.200 They're still
00:22:53.600 correctional officers
00:22:54.560 and they're kind
00:22:55.220 of part of it.
00:22:56.160 But any one of
00:22:57.100 those inmates
00:22:57.600 that will come
00:22:58.320 out of there,
00:22:58.900 and by the
00:22:59.440 way,
00:23:00.140 you know,
00:23:00.520 in our model
00:23:01.480 in Alberta,
00:23:02.420 we've built,
00:23:03.140 every correctional
00:23:04.080 center has a
00:23:04.660 sister recovery
00:23:05.980 community treatment
00:23:06.860 center on the
00:23:07.880 outside.
00:23:08.800 And so when an
00:23:09.460 inmate comes to
00:23:10.160 the end of their
00:23:10.720 sentence in the
00:23:11.540 therapeutic living
00:23:12.640 unit,
00:23:13.200 they can transfer
00:23:14.080 to the treatment
00:23:15.600 center to finish
00:23:16.380 their treatment,
00:23:17.140 you know,
00:23:17.400 in the community.
00:23:18.200 So we're
00:23:18.720 building a system
00:23:19.620 of care.
00:23:20.780 And,
00:23:21.420 you know,
00:23:21.540 that's the type
00:23:22.220 of vision,
00:23:23.380 not just giving
00:23:25.380 a grant,
00:23:26.040 cutting a ribbon,
00:23:27.340 you know,
00:23:27.620 giving a grant,
00:23:28.460 cutting a ribbon
00:23:29.100 with no thought
00:23:30.260 to how these
00:23:30.940 things interconnect
00:23:31.760 and how we're
00:23:33.380 going to put
00:23:33.760 people on a
00:23:34.440 pathway,
00:23:35.100 a true pathway
00:23:35.920 to wellness.
00:23:37.480 Have you been
00:23:37.740 doing it long
00:23:38.340 enough to see
00:23:39.160 whether there's
00:23:39.800 a drop in
00:23:40.420 recidivism?
00:23:42.280 Absolutely,
00:23:43.160 there's a drop
00:23:43.740 in recidivism.
00:23:45.260 It's a significant
00:23:46.460 one.
00:23:47.780 It's going to be,
00:23:48.420 it's going to be
00:23:49.380 like north of
00:23:50.320 50% reduction,
00:23:52.960 you know,
00:23:53.300 maybe even more.
00:23:54.160 I'm expecting
00:23:54.740 something in the
00:23:55.480 area of 60 to
00:23:56.540 70% reduction
00:23:57.800 in recidivism.
00:23:59.380 All right,
00:23:59.560 Marsha,
00:23:59.820 we're going to
00:24:00.140 take a quick
00:24:00.620 break.
00:24:00.920 When we come
00:24:01.300 back,
00:24:02.100 we'll talk more
00:24:03.500 about the
00:24:04.140 border issue.
00:24:05.840 I had a
00:24:06.120 conversation with
00:24:07.120 Premier Smith
00:24:07.780 about how
00:24:09.100 fentanyl and
00:24:10.280 the labs are
00:24:10.860 growing in BC
00:24:11.640 and Alberta
00:24:12.140 a little while
00:24:12.660 ago.
00:24:12.840 We'll get
00:24:13.540 into that
00:24:14.040 and why we
00:24:14.660 caught the
00:24:14.980 Americans'
00:24:15.500 attention for
00:24:16.040 all the wrong
00:24:16.600 reasons.
00:24:17.100 Back in
00:24:17.440 moments.
00:24:18.580 Postmedia is
00:24:19.500 launching a
00:24:20.400 brand new
00:24:21.020 podcast,
00:24:21.660 Canada Did
00:24:22.340 What?
00:24:22.700 It'll be
00:24:22.980 hosted by
00:24:23.500 Tristan Hopper,
00:24:24.700 funny guy,
00:24:25.560 interesting guy.
00:24:26.360 He's been on
00:24:26.780 this podcast.
00:24:27.900 Canada Did
00:24:28.400 What?
00:24:28.740 We'll dig
00:24:29.660 into the
00:24:30.040 untold,
00:24:30.620 surprising
00:24:30.980 political
00:24:31.400 stories of
00:24:32.020 the last
00:24:32.400 few decades.
00:24:33.500 And Tristan
00:24:33.820 Hopper is
00:24:34.200 going to look
00:24:34.500 at everything
00:24:34.840 from the
00:24:35.240 metric wars to
00:24:36.060 Morgenthaler,
00:24:37.020 the October
00:24:37.480 crisis,
00:24:38.080 the abortion
00:24:38.440 debate.
00:24:38.800 We're unpacking
00:24:39.580 all the wildest
00:24:40.440 political
00:24:40.780 moments.
00:24:41.200 You might
00:24:42.420 think you're
00:24:42.940 a member and
00:24:44.040 giving you the
00:24:44.600 real story that
00:24:45.300 you never knew.
00:24:46.840 Tristan will
00:24:47.140 talk to the
00:24:47.560 politicians,
00:24:48.260 journalists,
00:24:48.640 newsmakers who
00:24:49.300 were right there
00:24:49.960 when history
00:24:50.540 happened, and
00:24:51.920 he's going to
00:24:52.160 have a lot of
00:24:52.580 fun doing it.
00:24:53.220 That is coming
00:24:53.920 out shortly, so
00:24:54.780 keep an eye out
00:24:55.380 for that one.
00:24:56.340 So, Marshall,
00:24:56.660 bringing it back
00:24:57.320 to where we
00:24:57.740 started about
00:24:58.260 Donald Trump
00:24:59.080 and giving us
00:25:00.160 a kick in the
00:25:00.660 butt about
00:25:01.100 fentanyl, the
00:25:03.740 Trudeau
00:25:04.060 government, when
00:25:04.680 he first said,
00:25:06.080 you've got a
00:25:06.440 problem on your
00:25:06.960 border, they
00:25:08.240 said, no, no,
00:25:08.980 we don't, we're
00:25:09.440 less than 1%.
00:25:10.180 Just look at
00:25:11.060 that stat, just
00:25:11.660 43 pounds, that's
00:25:12.940 it.
00:25:13.700 And my thought
00:25:14.380 was, well, we're
00:25:14.980 probably not
00:25:15.640 catching very
00:25:16.500 much.
00:25:17.540 In two months
00:25:18.540 since Ontario
00:25:19.300 launched their
00:25:20.600 Operation Deterrence,
00:25:22.320 where they're
00:25:22.720 doing border
00:25:23.320 patrols, the
00:25:24.880 OPP and their
00:25:26.360 municipal partners
00:25:27.360 have seized 46
00:25:29.480 pounds of
00:25:30.840 fentanyl, more
00:25:31.420 than across the
00:25:32.120 entire country.
00:25:33.440 I'm sure that
00:25:34.320 the Alberta
00:25:34.740 sheriffs are
00:25:35.280 going to find
00:25:35.680 some more.
00:25:36.300 I'm sure that
00:25:36.880 the SQ in
00:25:38.300 Quebec, etc.
00:25:40.880 And when I
00:25:41.700 was speaking
00:25:42.080 with Premier
00:25:42.560 Smith, she
00:25:43.080 said, you
00:25:43.900 know, the
00:25:44.440 human smuggling
00:25:45.300 thing, that
00:25:45.860 happens more
00:25:46.740 in eastern
00:25:48.160 Canada, but
00:25:48.840 she said,
00:25:50.000 fentanyl labs
00:25:50.720 are becoming
00:25:51.160 a big business
00:25:52.520 in BC and
00:25:53.960 it's moving
00:25:54.380 into Alberta
00:25:55.060 and we've
00:25:55.840 got to be
00:25:56.900 concerned about
00:25:58.280 that.
00:25:59.280 How big is
00:26:00.640 the operation
00:26:01.440 and is it
00:26:02.300 spreading?
00:26:03.840 I think the
00:26:04.620 operation is
00:26:05.560 significant enough
00:26:06.840 to warrant
00:26:07.560 a bulletin
00:26:09.880 from the
00:26:10.360 Canadian
00:26:10.740 Criminal
00:26:11.580 Intelligence
00:26:12.680 Service that
00:26:15.940 I read not
00:26:17.300 long ago.
00:26:17.760 It was not a
00:26:19.540 classified document,
00:26:20.800 so I'm happy to
00:26:21.700 talk about it,
00:26:22.320 but it was a
00:26:23.280 bulletin that
00:26:25.220 basically said
00:26:26.200 that the
00:26:26.660 service was
00:26:27.260 now prepared
00:26:27.980 to say that
00:26:32.620 Canada was
00:26:33.220 now a
00:26:33.640 fentanyl
00:26:34.060 exporting
00:26:34.740 country.
00:26:35.420 Was this
00:26:37.360 the Fintrack
00:26:38.220 study?
00:26:38.960 No, this
00:26:39.640 is the
00:26:40.720 Canadian
00:26:41.040 Criminal
00:26:41.480 Intelligence
00:26:42.260 Service.
00:26:43.700 Fintrack said
00:26:44.440 something similar
00:26:45.160 and they're the
00:26:45.580 ones that track
00:26:46.160 the money laundering,
00:26:47.100 which apparently is
00:26:47.780 huge in Canada.
00:26:49.420 Yeah, so look,
00:26:50.860 we're, you know,
00:26:53.060 we are fentanyl
00:26:54.880 producers.
00:26:56.880 You know, a lot
00:26:57.660 of the precursors
00:26:58.480 come in and it
00:26:59.820 happens here and
00:27:00.880 and look, we
00:27:01.920 are a country
00:27:02.940 with wide open
00:27:03.800 spaces, with
00:27:04.820 lots of real
00:27:05.580 estate and
00:27:07.360 lots of places
00:27:08.040 to hide to do
00:27:09.100 these things.
00:27:10.380 So these things
00:27:11.440 can go relatively
00:27:12.480 undetected.
00:27:14.160 And, you know,
00:27:15.080 over the last
00:27:15.900 20 years, our
00:27:17.380 law enforcement
00:27:18.060 bodies have
00:27:18.920 dramatically reduced
00:27:20.200 the amount of
00:27:21.080 budget associated
00:27:22.300 with drug
00:27:23.140 enforcement.
00:27:24.160 I remember,
00:27:25.380 you know, back
00:27:26.260 in my day,
00:27:27.940 you know, running
00:27:28.540 around Vancouver,
00:27:30.220 there was a
00:27:32.700 drug squad in
00:27:34.060 Vancouver that
00:27:35.000 was about 75
00:27:36.360 full-time
00:27:38.100 officers strong.
00:27:40.780 And, you know,
00:27:42.180 recently, over the
00:27:43.680 last couple of
00:27:44.320 years, I inquired
00:27:45.220 again from a
00:27:46.100 friend of mine
00:27:46.560 who was on the
00:27:47.100 force, and they
00:27:48.640 had been reduced
00:27:49.360 to 11.
00:27:51.160 75 to 11.
00:27:53.360 20-odd years
00:27:53.840 ago to 11.
00:27:55.200 Yeah.
00:27:56.240 So even though
00:27:57.720 the problem is
00:27:58.440 getting bigger,
00:27:59.140 the number has
00:28:00.200 been dropping.
00:28:01.400 And the reality
00:28:02.140 for the chiefs
00:28:03.520 of police has
00:28:05.060 been that they
00:28:05.740 have had mayors
00:28:07.220 who often
00:28:10.040 control the
00:28:10.900 police commissions
00:28:12.180 who are putting
00:28:14.480 tremendous budget
00:28:15.400 pressures to cut
00:28:16.340 police budgets,
00:28:17.820 right, and
00:28:18.300 because they want
00:28:19.480 to repurpose that
00:28:20.360 money to harm
00:28:21.620 reduction programs
00:28:22.520 or other services.
00:28:23.880 And, you know,
00:28:26.900 the public has
00:28:27.880 kind of gone
00:28:29.640 along with it,
00:28:30.480 Brian.
00:28:30.980 Like, there was
00:28:31.840 no, there hasn't
00:28:32.800 been like a
00:28:34.280 scream to say,
00:28:38.160 like, we're not
00:28:38.660 going to stand
00:28:39.180 for this.
00:28:39.820 The public kind
00:28:40.520 of went, oh,
00:28:40.940 yeah, decrim,
00:28:41.740 yeah, maybe it's a
00:28:42.440 good idea, you
00:28:43.260 know, let's try
00:28:43.940 it.
00:28:44.160 Uh, and so
00:28:46.880 they're going to
00:28:48.020 reapportion those
00:28:48.940 budgets and put
00:28:50.040 them into response
00:28:50.980 policing.
00:28:51.780 And that's exactly
00:28:52.820 what we've seen
00:28:53.440 across the country.
00:28:54.360 So we're, we are
00:28:55.700 missing out on,
00:28:56.880 uh, you know,
00:28:58.340 really robust,
00:28:59.580 uh, intelligence,
00:29:01.440 uh, you know,
00:29:02.680 specialized units,
00:29:04.480 uh, source
00:29:05.400 handling, uh,
00:29:07.420 you know, and all
00:29:08.640 of those kind of
00:29:09.440 specialized functions
00:29:10.860 that go into
00:29:12.840 policing or that
00:29:13.640 used to go into
00:29:14.400 policing, uh,
00:29:15.800 because look,
00:29:16.540 you don't catch
00:29:17.940 fentanyl labs, uh,
00:29:20.340 by having people,
00:29:21.980 having police
00:29:22.600 officers driving a
00:29:23.740 police car down
00:29:25.040 Bloor street, right?
00:29:26.760 You know, essentially
00:29:27.440 that's not how it's
00:29:28.240 done.
00:29:28.480 It's done by having
00:29:29.740 specialized squads
00:29:31.000 that know how to
00:29:32.140 recruit and handle
00:29:33.220 sources, human
00:29:35.000 sources that give
00:29:36.380 them information
00:29:37.160 that help in their
00:29:38.660 investigations and
00:29:39.720 they follow, you
00:29:40.800 know, up the, up
00:29:41.860 the stream to find
00:29:43.160 it.
00:29:43.360 And, and a lot
00:29:44.320 of the, the
00:29:45.000 investments that
00:29:46.040 governments have
00:29:47.160 made in these type
00:29:48.260 of services over the
00:29:49.260 years have been
00:29:49.860 decimated.
00:29:52.000 It's very
00:29:53.700 depressing, uh,
00:29:55.000 excuse me, to
00:29:56.080 listen to, um, you
00:29:58.220 know, one of the
00:29:59.200 things that I noted
00:29:59.980 in an executive
00:30:01.320 order signed by
00:30:02.120 president Trump on
00:30:03.860 this issue, uh,
00:30:05.840 was that they
00:30:07.240 specifically,
00:30:07.820 specifically said,
00:30:09.280 uh, the
00:30:11.320 fentanyl is coming
00:30:11.980 in from Canada
00:30:12.680 through the mail.
00:30:14.340 And I thought,
00:30:15.320 wait a minute,
00:30:15.800 that sounds like
00:30:16.760 how it used to
00:30:17.580 come into Canada
00:30:18.660 from China.
00:30:19.840 Uh, and then,
00:30:20.920 you know, people
00:30:21.780 scoffed at that.
00:30:22.560 And just two weeks
00:30:24.560 ago, uh, a
00:30:26.260 shipping, um, uh,
00:30:28.620 center in
00:30:29.920 Seattle, they're
00:30:30.640 doing just spot
00:30:31.960 checks.
00:30:32.300 They open up a
00:30:33.000 package.
00:30:33.420 There's a pound of
00:30:34.020 it had just come in
00:30:34.920 in a shipment from
00:30:35.560 Canada.
00:30:36.360 Right.
00:30:37.300 Yeah.
00:30:37.580 Well, look, in, in
00:30:39.580 Canada, uh, you
00:30:42.560 know, the last time
00:30:43.400 that, that I, I
00:30:44.240 mean, look, I've
00:30:44.680 been, I've been kind
00:30:45.660 of not in my chair
00:30:46.660 in, in office for a
00:30:47.900 while, so I, but it
00:30:49.100 hasn't been that
00:30:49.720 long.
00:30:50.000 So I still have
00:30:50.720 relatively fresh,
00:30:51.760 uh, information
00:30:53.900 and, and I can, um,
00:30:56.200 I can say generally
00:30:57.480 that a lot of the
00:31:00.220 drugs that come in,
00:31:01.740 uh, into our
00:31:02.820 country are coming
00:31:03.720 in through our
00:31:04.640 ports, uh, in
00:31:06.540 particular, the port
00:31:07.380 of Vancouver, uh, a
00:31:09.400 lot of these, uh, and
00:31:11.080 a lot of these drugs
00:31:12.140 are also coming in
00:31:13.260 on ships, uh, where
00:31:15.320 the load is dumped,
00:31:16.540 uh, you know, into
00:31:17.660 the water and buoyed
00:31:19.040 off the west, uh,
00:31:21.280 coast of Vancouver
00:31:22.280 Island.
00:31:23.480 Uh, you know, then
00:31:24.600 people go out and get
00:31:26.060 it and, you know, and
00:31:27.020 bring it back in and
00:31:27.880 it makes its way, you
00:31:29.120 know, from Vancouver
00:31:29.840 Island through
00:31:30.480 Vancouver, uh, and
00:31:32.240 then, uh, starts
00:31:33.540 making its journey
00:31:34.520 east.
00:31:34.800 So it, uh, it, it
00:31:35.780 may not even come
00:31:36.680 into the port.
00:31:37.320 They're throwing it
00:31:37.900 overboard for people
00:31:39.800 to pick up.
00:31:41.040 That's right.
00:31:41.700 I mean, why, why
00:31:42.500 would you risk all
00:31:43.640 of the security at
00:31:44.560 the port when you
00:31:45.800 can just, what
00:31:46.680 security at the
00:31:47.480 port?
00:31:47.880 There's no, when
00:31:48.320 you can, yeah, when
00:31:49.520 you can just dump it,
00:31:50.620 you know, a mile
00:31:51.620 offshore and a, and a
00:31:52.880 boat just comes to,
00:31:53.780 to pick it up.
00:31:54.560 Why would you take
00:31:55.380 the risk?
00:31:56.080 So, you know, so
00:31:57.260 there is, there's a
00:31:58.060 lot of that that's
00:31:58.840 been going on for
00:31:59.920 years.
00:32:00.820 Uh, also the
00:32:02.060 commercial
00:32:02.460 transportation, uh,
00:32:04.300 industry, uh, you
00:32:06.620 know, from Vancouver
00:32:07.740 going east, uh, is,
00:32:10.180 is also chock-a-block
00:32:11.800 full of drug
00:32:13.420 mewling, uh, that
00:32:15.500 brings the product
00:32:16.540 kind of from
00:32:17.260 British Columbia, you
00:32:18.620 know, and moves it
00:32:19.340 across the country.
00:32:20.160 So look, I don't, you
00:32:21.240 know, it's, it's
00:32:21.800 very, uh, it's a
00:32:23.560 very difficult
00:32:24.220 conversation to talk
00:32:25.540 about interprovincial
00:32:26.540 borders.
00:32:27.380 Um, and, and
00:32:29.320 certainly I don't
00:32:29.960 think anybody wants
00:32:30.840 to see, uh, um,
00:32:33.920 anybody wants to
00:32:34.940 see kind of, you
00:32:36.060 know, border
00:32:36.640 facilities in between
00:32:38.120 provinces.
00:32:38.620 I think that's a
00:32:39.280 non-starter, but we
00:32:40.660 should absolutely be
00:32:41.920 beefing up commercial
00:32:43.040 vehicle inspections,
00:32:44.120 uh, you know,
00:32:45.720 utilizing canines and,
00:32:47.600 and other technology,
00:32:49.280 uh, you know, and I
00:32:51.260 think those should be
00:32:51.980 partnerships.
00:32:52.560 They should be
00:32:53.560 things that bring
00:32:54.340 provinces together
00:32:55.420 rather than dividing
00:32:56.840 them.
00:32:57.580 Alberta and British
00:32:58.400 Columbia should, for
00:32:59.820 example, should be
00:33:00.840 collaborating on
00:33:02.480 cross-border, uh,
00:33:04.020 interdiction.
00:33:05.040 Uh, they should have
00:33:06.200 their commercial
00:33:06.800 vehicle units
00:33:07.700 collaborating on, uh,
00:33:10.080 on making sure that
00:33:11.260 there are more
00:33:12.460 inspections and, and
00:33:13.800 introducing things like
00:33:15.020 drug-sniffing dogs to
00:33:16.220 those loads.
00:33:18.840 Yeah, well, part of, uh,
00:33:21.800 how they've been
00:33:22.240 finding stuff in
00:33:23.000 Ontario was 17,000
00:33:24.600 truck inspections in
00:33:26.400 very short order.
00:33:27.460 Yeah, very much so.
00:33:28.680 Yeah.
00:33:29.180 Right.
00:33:29.480 And that is part of
00:33:30.760 it.
00:33:31.880 If, okay, so you
00:33:34.220 have advised
00:33:34.820 governments across
00:33:36.020 the, uh, the
00:33:37.060 country, you're
00:33:38.440 sitting in the room
00:33:39.220 with, let's say I'm
00:33:41.800 in, um, Queens
00:33:43.440 Park, I'm, uh, two
00:33:44.680 floors up from
00:33:45.340 Premier Ford's
00:33:46.080 office.
00:33:46.840 We're all assuming,
00:33:48.040 you know, let's
00:33:48.960 say, uh, you're
00:33:50.180 sitting in his room.
00:33:51.480 Yeah.
00:33:52.100 What, what are you
00:33:52.700 telling him?
00:33:53.060 What are the five
00:33:53.820 things that you're
00:33:54.460 saying, here's what
00:33:55.440 you need to do to
00:33:57.100 deal with this
00:33:57.820 problem from a crime
00:33:59.140 perspective, from an
00:34:00.500 addictions perspective,
00:34:01.420 from a public safety
00:34:02.520 perspective?
00:34:03.480 Well, the number one
00:34:04.620 thing that I had, that I,
00:34:05.740 that I, that I, I will
00:34:07.460 and do hammer on the
00:34:09.500 premiers to do is to
00:34:11.820 get their governance in
00:34:13.440 order, right?
00:34:14.420 They're not organized,
00:34:15.820 uh, appropriately to
00:34:17.760 tackle these issues.
00:34:19.020 We're still using
00:34:20.220 government structures
00:34:21.140 that were built in
00:34:22.040 the seventies, uh, to
00:34:23.700 try and tackle some
00:34:24.820 really complicated,
00:34:25.800 uh, societal issues.
00:34:28.400 Governments aren't set
00:34:29.360 up to do this
00:34:30.240 properly.
00:34:31.280 Uh, so this is a
00:34:32.440 leadership issue.
00:34:33.340 The premiers need to
00:34:34.380 start taking leadership
00:34:35.560 roles in these cross
00:34:37.420 government initiatives.
00:34:38.780 You need to form a
00:34:39.980 committee of cabinet.
00:34:40.800 It needs to have the
00:34:41.780 full power of cabinet
00:34:43.360 to make decisions and
00:34:45.020 to take action on
00:34:45.980 issues.
00:34:46.560 You need to have a
00:34:47.640 vision that that
00:34:48.460 committee of cabinet
00:34:49.340 can, can work
00:34:50.640 towards, and you
00:34:51.740 need to have, most
00:34:52.940 importantly, uh, the
00:34:54.860 reason why you need a
00:34:56.060 committee of cabinet
00:34:56.880 with the full legal
00:34:57.960 authority of cabinet
00:34:59.340 to make decisions and
00:35:00.940 have records of
00:35:01.700 decisions is because
00:35:02.600 that's how bureaucrats
00:35:04.120 take their marching
00:35:05.460 orders, right?
00:35:06.860 Uh, you know, if, if,
00:35:08.520 uh, if a premier goes
00:35:10.020 out to the microphone
00:35:11.500 and says, yeah, you
00:35:12.980 know, I think I'd like
00:35:13.840 to do this.
00:35:14.620 That isn't what gets
00:35:16.100 the bureaucrats into
00:35:17.500 action, right?
00:35:18.460 There's no legal
00:35:19.320 requirement on them
00:35:20.560 to take action and
00:35:21.620 there's no accountability
00:35:22.520 for them.
00:35:23.340 But when cabinet makes
00:35:24.680 a decision and there's
00:35:25.600 a record of decision
00:35:26.680 and it's given to the
00:35:27.920 cabinet secretary to
00:35:29.740 say, here is your
00:35:30.740 lawful order, execute,
00:35:33.100 they, then they must
00:35:34.460 take action.
00:35:35.760 So I, I, we're not
00:35:36.780 using the mechanisms
00:35:37.980 of government the way
00:35:39.040 that they need to be
00:35:39.820 used and we're not
00:35:40.740 using them in a
00:35:41.620 contemporary way to
00:35:43.340 tackle these big
00:35:44.300 issues.
00:35:44.820 And, and so, uh, you
00:35:47.200 know, it, it shouldn't
00:35:48.200 fall on any one
00:35:49.180 minister, right?
00:35:50.040 Like there's needs to
00:35:51.300 be input and decision
00:35:52.480 making from multiple
00:35:53.940 places to kind of
00:35:55.060 tackle these.
00:35:55.880 Secondly, I would say
00:35:56.840 once you get your
00:35:58.020 governance set up, uh,
00:35:59.800 and the, the
00:36:00.780 stakeholders and the
00:36:01.760 people who provide the
00:36:03.680 services, uh, in the
00:36:05.600 province, they can see
00:36:07.560 that there's a clear
00:36:08.660 decision-making body, uh,
00:36:11.020 which I think is
00:36:12.140 something that, you
00:36:13.540 know, needs to be, uh,
00:36:15.080 done immediately, uh,
00:36:17.100 then they will start,
00:36:18.260 you know, rowing, uh,
00:36:20.200 along with the
00:36:21.060 government and keeping
00:36:21.980 that cadence.
00:36:22.820 And that's how you make
00:36:23.780 progress.
00:36:24.800 Uh, we need
00:36:25.780 dramatically more
00:36:26.940 treatment.
00:36:28.580 Uh, we need places for
00:36:30.120 people to go and I
00:36:32.640 don't think that they
00:36:33.420 should, we need to be
00:36:34.180 smart about it.
00:36:35.040 I mean, in, in, in
00:36:35.980 Alberta, we didn't want
00:36:37.460 to just build treatment
00:36:38.900 centers.
00:36:39.300 We needed a new
00:36:40.280 mental model about how
00:36:42.420 we were going to
00:36:43.160 tackle, uh, uh, this
00:36:45.660 issue.
00:36:46.420 Uh, we didn't want to
00:36:47.880 have expensive buildings
00:36:49.540 where people go in for
00:36:50.560 30 days and they're
00:36:51.560 relatively ineffective.
00:36:52.960 We wanted to have
00:36:54.400 housing for people that
00:36:56.260 needed it.
00:36:57.140 We wanted to have, uh,
00:36:59.300 uh, very intensive,
00:37:01.060 uh, therapy for
00:37:03.020 substance use disorder,
00:37:04.100 you know, and, and
00:37:05.240 mental health, and it
00:37:06.120 needed to be long
00:37:07.040 enough up to a year.
00:37:08.220 So we built the
00:37:09.300 concept of a recovery
00:37:10.480 community, which is a
00:37:12.200 building about the size
00:37:13.180 of a football field.
00:37:14.260 They hold about a
00:37:14.940 hundred people.
00:37:16.460 You, uh, it's a model
00:37:17.800 of housing built on a
00:37:19.980 treatment chassis.
00:37:21.340 So people go in there
00:37:22.660 and it's individualized
00:37:23.900 care.
00:37:24.960 People take varying
00:37:26.200 lengths of time to, to
00:37:28.160 go through that and it
00:37:29.660 needs to be funded.
00:37:30.680 It's outrageous in this
00:37:32.500 country that somebody, uh,
00:37:35.660 whose child is dying
00:37:37.400 should have to take out
00:37:39.180 their MasterCard and
00:37:40.760 max it out in order to
00:37:42.900 get the care that their
00:37:44.000 loved one needs, right?
00:37:46.320 They, it, it should be no
00:37:47.560 different than if I break
00:37:48.660 my leg and go into the,
00:37:50.460 into the hospital to get
00:37:51.780 care.
00:37:52.860 And, and, and again,
00:37:54.400 doing this compared to the
00:37:57.400 consequences of, of what
00:37:59.420 is going on in our major
00:38:01.000 cities across the country
00:38:02.920 is pennies on the dollar
00:38:04.380 in Edmonton.
00:38:06.540 I'll just tell you a
00:38:07.020 story in, in, in downtown
00:38:08.400 Edmonton, um, we had one
00:38:11.880 company who wanted to come
00:38:14.440 and make a hundred million
00:38:16.360 dollar investment in
00:38:17.660 downtown Edmonton.
00:38:18.660 They came and walked
00:38:19.280 around, they got back on
00:38:20.300 their plane and they left
00:38:21.240 right.
00:38:22.340 So because of how it
00:38:23.500 looked.
00:38:23.940 Yeah, for sure.
00:38:24.700 They didn't want their
00:38:25.580 staff, uh, you know,
00:38:27.080 having to walk through
00:38:28.000 parking lots like this
00:38:29.080 that's going on all over
00:38:30.640 the place, untreated
00:38:32.100 addiction costs our
00:38:34.380 economy in Canada, $47
00:38:37.040 billion a year, 47
00:38:40.520 billion.
00:38:41.740 It's funny.
00:38:42.360 You picked on Edmonton
00:38:43.360 a little while ago.
00:38:44.660 Uh, Kevin Hassett, who
00:38:46.180 is, um, one of Trump's
00:38:47.960 top economic advisors.
00:38:49.480 He's got an office in the
00:38:50.840 white house.
00:38:51.420 Yeah.
00:38:52.100 He was on CNBC.
00:38:53.380 I'm not sure if you saw
00:38:54.580 this interview.
00:38:55.340 I did.
00:38:55.740 And he, he specifically
00:38:56.980 talked about being in
00:38:59.320 Edmonton walking out of
00:39:01.080 his hotel room and seeing
00:39:02.500 zombies wander the street.
00:39:04.340 And this is a guy who has
00:39:06.540 done a lot of business
00:39:07.420 over the years in Canada,
00:39:08.660 who loves coming up to
00:39:10.200 Canada to fish and said
00:39:11.420 he couldn't believe what
00:39:12.420 Edmonton looked like.
00:39:13.640 Yeah.
00:39:14.060 Well, look, I'll just
00:39:15.720 preface that.
00:39:16.800 I did see that and, and
00:39:18.680 it was noticed.
00:39:20.120 I will say that his
00:39:21.860 visit to Edmonton is, was
00:39:23.220 quite old.
00:39:24.760 Uh, it was years ago, uh,
00:39:27.340 that he made that visit
00:39:28.520 and, uh, and a lot has
00:39:29.940 changed and a lot of work
00:39:31.360 has gone into it, but
00:39:32.020 there's still a lot.
00:39:33.160 Look, there's a lot of
00:39:33.920 work that, that needs to
00:39:35.520 happen.
00:39:35.860 And, and, you know, when I
00:39:37.100 was chief of staff, uh, I
00:39:38.780 would love to have spent a
00:39:40.020 hundred percent of my
00:39:41.080 time, you know, focusing
00:39:42.760 on this.
00:39:43.420 But the reality is, is
00:39:45.420 that, uh, you know, I, I'll
00:39:47.260 be quite blunt.
00:39:48.400 50% of my time when I was
00:39:50.320 working on this file was
00:39:51.880 spent fighting back
00:39:53.060 lunatic drug activists.
00:39:54.720 Uh, and, and so, you
00:39:57.340 know, 50% of your time is
00:39:58.860 spent making progress.
00:40:00.300 I would love to not have
00:40:01.860 that fight and, and be
00:40:03.280 able to, you know, go all
00:40:05.060 in, but this is the nature
00:40:06.300 of democracy.
00:40:07.980 So if they, they, they
00:40:09.140 fix their governance
00:40:10.120 structures, they build a
00:40:11.460 proper model.
00:40:12.640 I like what I'm seeing out
00:40:14.480 of Alberta's model.
00:40:15.400 It's much better than the,
00:40:16.800 uh, let's give them more
00:40:17.960 opioids model of British
00:40:19.500 Columbia.
00:40:19.860 Let's decriminalize like
00:40:21.360 British Columbia.
00:40:22.240 They do that.
00:40:24.080 Do they also have to, you
00:40:25.460 mentioned earlier, the, uh,
00:40:27.140 the drug units, 75 down to
00:40:29.300 11 in Vancouver.
00:40:30.800 Do they need to start
00:40:32.620 funding police units to go
00:40:35.980 after the organized crime?
00:40:37.380 Because they, I mean, these
00:40:38.180 are big multinational crime
00:40:40.480 syndicates.
00:40:41.480 Uh, it, you know, you, you
00:40:43.260 can't have a beat cop to
00:40:44.420 looking after that.
00:40:45.580 Right.
00:40:46.280 But, but, and this, and
00:40:47.520 for sure, this is my point.
00:40:48.640 Like I, I, I don't want to
00:40:50.220 hear out of politicians
00:40:51.380 anymore, uh, that, you
00:40:53.580 know, we're going to fund,
00:40:54.600 you know, 75 more cops on
00:40:56.400 the street that, you know,
00:40:57.860 look, that's great.
00:40:58.600 And the, the, we should
00:40:59.940 have that too, but the, the,
00:41:02.060 you know, the police
00:41:02.880 presence that command
00:41:04.380 presence for sure makes,
00:41:07.020 uh, Jane and John citizen
00:41:09.520 and myself feel safe when
00:41:12.440 they're around and that's
00:41:13.500 not nothing, but that's not
00:41:15.820 how you get to the core of
00:41:18.900 these issues that are going
00:41:20.480 on.
00:41:20.920 Look, the criminal,
00:41:21.800 criminals that are running
00:41:23.400 sophisticated criminal
00:41:24.620 networks, uh, in terms of,
00:41:27.020 uh, you know, drug
00:41:28.020 involved networks that are
00:41:29.400 transnational and trans
00:41:31.000 border drug trafficking are
00:41:32.380 incredibly sophisticated, uh,
00:41:35.080 actors, uh, and no beat
00:41:38.280 cop is going, they could be
00:41:39.600 standing right next to them.
00:41:40.860 They'd never even know it
00:41:41.940 because they're there.
00:41:42.920 That's not what their
00:41:43.800 program to look for.
00:41:45.040 So we, I want to hear more
00:41:47.280 from Canada's premiers about
00:41:49.780 funding specialized units.
00:41:51.740 I want to see more, uh, human
00:41:54.480 intelligence, more source
00:41:56.400 handling, uh, more specialized
00:41:58.760 units that are looking into
00:42:00.460 these things.
00:42:01.260 Uh, and I, look, I, I recognize
00:42:03.380 that we don't have the ability
00:42:05.600 often to speak publicly about,
00:42:07.840 about operational, uh, uh, issues.
00:42:11.500 Like we don't get deep into
00:42:12.960 operational issues, but that
00:42:14.760 shouldn't prevent us from
00:42:16.100 talking about what's going to
00:42:17.480 be required to move the needle
00:42:19.160 and put, you know, criminal
00:42:21.580 organizations like that on
00:42:22.900 notice to say, like, we're
00:42:25.580 going to do whatever we can to
00:42:26.940 disrupt what's going on.
00:42:28.860 I, I, I, there was a mayor, uh,
00:42:32.400 you know, and I, I used the
00:42:34.320 analogy cause I, I get asked
00:42:35.920 this question a lot across the
00:42:37.620 country.
00:42:37.980 It was a mayor in, in BC who
00:42:41.020 said, you know, like, you know,
00:42:43.200 what can, what can we do as a
00:42:44.620 city, uh, to, to, to, to
00:42:47.340 improve services and, and repel
00:42:49.960 criminals?
00:42:50.380 And I said, look, I mean, you,
00:42:52.260 you already have the formula.
00:42:53.760 You do it every day in your
00:42:55.540 economic development arms, right?
00:42:58.740 When you create the conditions,
00:43:00.820 uh, for business to flourish, uh,
00:43:04.460 by lowering taxes and, and
00:43:06.920 making, you know, provisions for
00:43:09.180 special zones and this, that
00:43:10.900 thing, lo and behold, business
00:43:12.820 flourishes.
00:43:13.600 Well, you know what?
00:43:14.920 We made business flourish for
00:43:17.620 drug, for drug crime, right?
00:43:19.760 Oh yes.
00:43:20.280 We created the conditions just
00:43:23.140 like an economic development arm
00:43:25.200 would do.
00:43:26.160 We removed the consequences, you
00:43:28.660 know, we brought in supply, we
00:43:30.880 took away any impediments that
00:43:32.600 they would have to do business.
00:43:34.040 And so it shouldn't be a shock
00:43:35.900 to anybody that business
00:43:37.180 flourished, right?
00:43:39.540 I mean, these are the same
00:43:40.960 things we do when we want any
00:43:42.640 other business to flourish.
00:43:44.640 Except it was the wrong one.
00:43:46.020 Marshall Smith, thanks so much
00:43:47.900 for the time today.
00:43:48.880 Great to see you, Brian.
00:43:49.780 All the best.
00:43:50.820 Full Comment is a post-media
00:43:52.400 podcast.
00:43:53.040 My name's Brian Lilly, your
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00:43:55.820 Andre Pru, theme music by
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00:43:58.440 Kevin Libin is the executive
00:43:59.700 producer.
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