Dr. Jonathan Calkins is a professor of Operations Research and Public Policy at Carnegie Mellon University's Heinz College and a co-author of a recent paper called Fentanyl at the Gates, comparing large seizures at the U.S. and Canadian borders.
00:06:42.600I guess none of us would like our country being associated with it, but they are cartels from Mexico, and there are Chinese triads coming in.
00:06:50.300And I just learned recently about the Cahen cartel out of Ireland that now operates in Dubai.
00:06:57.520All of these groups are there, and can we assume that if it was Mexican cartel fentanyl in somewhere like Okanagan County on the Canada-U.S. border,
00:07:06.900that it came from Mexico or that it came from the cartel operations in Canada?
00:07:11.460Because they've set up in your country.
00:07:30.540So it is possible that the drug seized in Okanagan County had been sent from Mexico to Canada and then down into Okanagan County across the border.
00:07:44.620So let's back up a little bit, because I've been watching the rise of fentanyl for over a decade in our most recent mayoral election here in Toronto.
00:07:55.940Like many major cities, we've got a lot of problems to do with homelessness, encampments, open drug use in the streets, societal decay.
00:08:04.580And I remember writing a piece that said pretty much all the major issues that we're dealing with, the gun crime, the shootings going up, can be tied back to, in some way, to fentanyl.
00:08:15.540Prior to fentanyl really taking off across North America in the early aughts, we were dealing with heroin as the main opioid.
00:08:27.100What makes fentanyl so lucrative and at the same time so addictive for the population?
00:08:35.040Because we're facing a very different crisis than we were when the opioid of choice was heroin or synthetic heroin.
00:08:44.620If you put yourself in the shoes of a high-level trafficker, perhaps in Mexico, and you're in the business of supplying illegal opioids to the North American market,
00:08:54.240the innovation of distributing fentanyl instead of heroin is just a way to radically reduce your cost of raw materials.
00:09:04.100The price per morphine-equivalent dose is the jargon.
00:09:10.000So there are many different opioids, everything from codeine to fentanyl and carfentanil.
00:09:14.540They're broadly similar but of different potencies, so we need a common unit to convert one to the other, and it's called a morphine-equivalent dose.
00:09:23.420The cost per morphine-equivalent dose for the high-level traffickers is maybe 1% with fentanyl, what it was with heroin.
00:09:30.940So they just seized on the opportunity to save money.
00:09:34.740And also, it's more compact, so it's easier to smuggle.
00:09:37.700It's synthetic, so you can produce it quickly if it sees a lot of advantages for them.
00:09:42.080And the main reason why things are worse is the price on the street has dropped by 90%,
00:09:48.580and people are using way more than they used to.
00:09:52.820So you mentioned in your piece for the Manhattan Institute how changing the price point can really alter an opioid market,
00:10:11.980Explain how that worked back then, and why trying to interrupt these supply chains matters if you're going to try and solve the problem of the opioid addiction.
00:10:23.300So back in the day, a lot of the heroin consumed in the United States was produced in the Middle East
00:10:29.800and passed through Marseille, France, on the way to New York City and Montreal.
00:10:36.100And there were simultaneous actions both against the production in the Middle East and also against the French Connection.
00:10:44.960And yeah, the movie is based on real events.
00:10:47.320And because that pathway accounted for such a large share of heroin entering North America,
00:10:56.420breaking that route made a substantial difference.
00:11:00.540So for a year or two or a shade more, there was a relative scarcity.
00:11:06.820Prices spiked triple or quadruple what they had been,
00:11:11.620and that kind of broke the back of the heroin epidemic that got started in the late 1960s.
00:12:22.260And there were stories about smuggling and border crossing to evade taxes in the late 18th and early 19th century.
00:12:38.460This had to do with evading customs duties and also figuring out the least expensive way to move furs from the interior to the European markets.
00:12:53.920So, you know, the geography makes it make sense, right?
00:12:57.580The Hudson River Valley goes up and connects to Lake Champlain, which connects to Rishulu River.
00:13:02.200It's actually been a transportation corridor, who knows, back almost to the time of Samuel D. Champlain.
00:13:10.220So the Montreal-New York corridor, you were going to say that back then New York City was smaller.
00:13:27.740The other big changes are technology today.
00:13:31.720At one time, it was not easy to have a phone conversation with somebody a continent away.
00:13:38.060Now, 12-year-old kids are playing video games with people they've never met on three different continents.
00:13:44.860So the communication capability, including encrypted communication, makes it so much easier to coordinate transcontinental shipments.
00:13:53.340And the drug trafficking usually hides within legitimate flows of people and goods.
00:14:01.760And international trade and international movements of people are just massively greater than they were, say, before the end of the Cold War.
00:14:09.200So it is way easier to move the stuff around.
00:14:13.200And that makes it much harder for law enforcement to create a sustained disruption.
00:14:18.080On the other hand, we are perhaps seeing one right at this moment, right?
00:14:21.600But for the last 18 months or so, the fentanyl markets in both Canada and the United States seem to have been substantially shocked.
00:14:35.340We may be right at this moment in the middle of a shortage, relative shortage.
00:14:41.080Before we get into potential enforcement measures, let's talk about how big this business is.
00:14:46.800I was writing the other day on a gentleman out of Vancouver area, Opinder Singh Sayan, who was arrested in Nevada.
00:14:58.340He had been, I guess, caught up in a stain operation by the Drug Enforcement Agency that started out of their office in Ankara, Turkey.
00:15:11.460Put them in touch, put their confidential source that they wanted to plant into this international ring in touch with people who eventually put the confidential source in touch with Cyan in Surrey,
00:15:22.440who's promising to bring in fentanyl precursors from Hong Kong and mainland China through Vancouver or directly to the port of Long Beach, just outside Los Angeles.
00:15:35.560There are connections to the aforementioned Cyan Irish drug cartel.
00:15:42.480So you've got China, Turkey, the United States, Canada, China, Australia, and Australia because, yes, they were shipping fentanyl into the United States either directly or through Canada and moving methamphetamine from Montreal through the port in Long Beach to Australia.
00:16:03.380These are big networks. How big is this business these days? Not this particular group, because you may not be able to answer that.
00:16:11.200But overall, this is big and lucrative business, isn't it?
00:16:15.420A hundred percent. So the United States used to have this series of studies called What American Users Spend on Illegal Drugs.
00:16:23.680Unfortunately, they stopped updating the series. So the last year for which we have that data where it's a comprehensive estimate is 2016, but at that time was $150 billion a year that people who consume drugs were spending buying those illegal drugs.
00:16:42.600It's $150 billion. Now, most of that actually stays with the lower level dealers. It's a little bit paradoxical, but those street dealers who are not themselves very wealthy get a lot of that because the prices get bumped up each step of the distribution chain.
00:16:59.360But when you're talking about the level that you're speaking of, those high-level traffickers at that time, that would have been a $15 or $20 billion a year activity supporting U.S. markets.
00:17:11.360And, you know, in round terms, Canada is about one-eighth the population of the United States.
00:17:18.040It wouldn't be surprising to me if the dollars involved in the Canadian market aren't roughly one-eighth what they are in the U.S. market.
00:17:25.780So the multibillion-dollar operation just for North America, excluding Mexico, even though technically, back to the geography lesson, they are part of North America.
00:17:35.620Yeah, and some of that $150 billion that American drug users were spending to buy drugs would be flowing back into Mexico.
00:17:44.680But so you would, I mean, given that fentanyl is lower, has the price or the amount that people are spending overall gone down?
00:18:04.760So in very, very round terms, the price per morphine equivalent dose, remember that's that unit that allows us to compare across opioids, has dropped by like 90%.
00:18:13.500And the number of morphine equivalent doses that the daily or near-daily user who has opioid use disorder is consuming has gone way up, maybe five times as much as before.
00:18:29.400So paradoxically, when you get this much cheaper drug, it's actually not increasing the dollar value of the market from those traditional users.
00:18:39.460But one of the things that fentanyl did is it expanded the user base.
00:18:45.200In the old heroin era, it was mostly injected, and a lot of people don't want to put a needle in their arm.
00:18:51.940But the fentanyl now is also distributed as counterfeit pills, and there are a lot of people who are willing to take a pill who would not want to inject.
00:19:03.380Well, and then once they get addicted, my understanding is it turns to crushing the pills and injecting them, which has all kinds of medical ramifications that I've spoken to doctors about that just give me the heebie-jeebies.
00:19:17.760So how does the business work, and why do, you know, instead of shipping fentanyl from China, which they used to do, and it's funny, we used to complain about fentanyl coming in from China to Canada by mail.
00:19:33.380Now, one of the complaints for how fentanyl gets from Canada to the United States and perhaps not caught at the border, and you allude to this a bit, is packages that don't come across the land border.
00:19:45.340You know, some of it's coming in by mail to the U.S. as well.
00:19:50.760Why are they now shipping precursors and having people make it at super labs either in the States or just across the Mexican border or in Canada?
00:20:26.280So a metaphor I use sometimes is baking a cake that's got frosting on it.
00:20:32.440And one image of producing cakes is you start with flour and sugar and egg.
00:20:39.280But another thing you can do is you could buy an unfrosted cake and then just add the frosting.
00:20:44.300A lot of these fentanyl precursors are more like the cake without the frosting.
00:20:49.760And then the only thing you need to do is add the frosting.
00:20:52.600So some of the precursors allow that final processing step to be relatively easy.
00:21:04.520So these can be super labs by quantity and importance, but they're not always super labs by technical sophistication.
00:21:13.180If you visit a super lab, you would not mistake it for an actual pharmaceutical company's lab in terms of...
00:21:21.520But the photos and videos I've seen, it doesn't look like a James Bond villain went in there with one of these super clean things.
00:21:27.700You're talking about pails that you would get at Home Depot or the pickle pail from your local restaurant is what this stuff is made in.
00:21:35.620Yes, and the person who's staffing that can either be just a trained laborer or in Mexico, it's not uncommon that they'll recruit somebody with, say, a bachelor's degree in chemistry.
00:21:47.380They're not needing someone PhD trained, but sometimes it's useful to have someone who has some skill in a lab.
00:21:55.420One of the reasons why fentanyl stuck this time around, I should back up.
00:22:00.560There have been three or four previous instances in which fentanyl threatened to penetrate the U.S. market before what we're seeing now started, as you say, about 10 years ago.
00:22:10.980Those earlier attempts were cut short because law enforcement got on top of it before it spread.
00:22:18.820And one of the reasons it was easier to control then is that the synthesis methods required more technical sophistication.
00:22:27.260For instance, they might require you to control the temperature and pressure of the reactor vessel during the synthesis.
00:22:35.060But then simpler synthesis methods were discovered and the recipes disseminated on the Internet.
00:22:42.240And now it is much closer to just mixed chemicals, not having to put them in a reactor that has a controlled temperature and pressure.
00:22:52.340So, yeah, they're not super sophisticated.
00:22:54.180But I never underestimate the resourcefulness of the criminal element.
00:23:02.520A lot of the resourcefulness is in the distribution.
00:23:06.920It's in how do you locate and communicate with that person 3,000 miles away and who is not a trustworthy partner.
00:23:15.780So you referred to this particular case.
00:23:19.100One of the things that's fun about that is they're using dollar bills and the serial number on dollar bills as a way of validating that the person that they're meeting with is the same person they're talking with.
00:23:47.900This is Tristan Hopper, the host of Canada Did What?, where we unpack the biggest, weirdest, and wildest political moments in Canadian history you thought you knew and tell you what really happened.
00:23:59.940Stick around at the end of the episode to hear a sample of one of our favorite episodes.
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00:24:10.260So, Professor Calkin, you mentioned just before the break this document that we both read.
00:24:16.200It's the affidavit attached to the arrest warrant that was issued for Opinder Singh Cyan out of Surrey, British Columbia.
00:24:38.820And if you're writing a movie about this, those would be some good elements to pull.
00:24:43.020But for a meetup, and this wasn't to do with fentanyl, this was to do with meth, but these networks trade in all the drugs.
00:24:50.480You know, they were also trading in cocaine as well.
00:24:52.780I'm sure there are others that just weren't mentioned.
00:24:55.180And the way that you would validate that you were the right person for the pickup is by citing a serial number from a dollar bill.
00:25:06.060In another instance, they were unsure that the shipment of meth was still in the custody of the person they had given it to to sell it to the Australians.
00:25:16.880And so they said, we want to see a photo of you with this, holding today's edition of the LA Times.
00:25:24.380Seems unsophisticated in some ways, but these are the methods they're going to to try and coordinate and ensure that they're not being tripped up by law enforcement, which they obviously were in this case.
00:25:36.620Not being tripped up by law enforcement, but also not being tripped up by each other.
00:25:39.800One of the occupational risks of being a criminal is you're working with other criminals who are not necessarily reputable.
00:25:46.780So to stereotype 10 and 20 years ago, the trust challenge.
00:25:52.100How do I trust a business partner when it's an illegal transaction and they could always just pull a gun and steal the money that I brought or steal the drugs that I brought, depending on which side of the transaction I am?
00:26:03.280Or even more, how do I trust that if I send a shipment thousands of miles, the person receiving is going to pay?
00:26:12.920Or if you're the buyer, the seller might say, pay me first, but you as the buyer say, why should I pay you first?
00:26:22.800In olden times, the trust challenge was solved primarily by working within ethnic groups and often within families.
00:26:31.380Sometimes by literally taking hostages.
00:26:34.780So the South American groups might send someone from their family into the United States to make sure they didn't go rogue.
00:26:44.240They would generously host that person's family at their compound.
00:26:50.020And if the person they sent to the United States ended up going rogue or whatever, then they have hostages.
00:26:58.960So those are like the old ways the drug trafficking networks worked.
00:27:03.880And it worked well enough, but it did limit to some degree the flows to operating on kind of traditional pathways and places where there were members of the same ethnic group on both sides of the international border.
00:27:16.560What we're seeing now with improved electronic communication is what you were referring to, these crazy mixes of many different nationalities in many different locations, trading in many different drugs.
00:27:29.160But they still have to solve that trust problem.
00:27:31.800And so the things you're talking about are some of the ways they try to deal with the trust problem when they're no longer working within ethnic and family ties.
00:27:42.660Yeah, it can sound like a bit of a joke if you put it the right way.
00:27:46.100You know, an Irishman, a Turk, and a Mexican walk into a Chinese bar.
00:28:00.180It's, well, it isn't what you would have expected years ago.
00:28:05.720You know, look, people can make fun of the movies and the books by people like Mario Puzo and Francis Ford Coppola, but there were accuracies in them.
00:28:41.180So you've got the Sinaloa cartel out of Mexico, the Kahane's out of Dublin via Dubai, and various organized crime elements in Canada and the United States buying from China.
00:28:56.680Is it the consumer or, I mean, there'd been some political talk that it was a Chinese political decision to flood North America with fentanyl.
00:29:07.540That this is part of their, their overall strategy of, of domination is to, you know, if, if we, they can undermine the United States through this, then it helps them economically and eventually geopolitically militarily.
00:29:22.580So to answer the first part, at one level, it is ultimately demand driven.
00:29:26.200One of the things that's been fascinating in my research life for the last year is we've assembled experts on 10 different major illegal markets, not just drugs, but also money laundering, commercial sex, human smuggling.
00:29:39.060And they're all basically demand driven in the sense that the trafficking organizations don't have big marketing departments purchasing television ads, or they aren't trying to push their illegal product or service on the consumer.
00:29:58.720So at some level, it's, it's demand driven.
00:30:01.460Um, your speculation that this was a plot by China, I don't know.
00:30:09.180I certainly, I don't live in that Politburo.
00:30:11.940My best guess, and it's only a guess is it wasn't something they planned way ahead of time.
00:30:17.720But once they realized it was happening, they were like, okay, this is, this is something that we will only crack down on somewhat grudgingly and to avoid the embarrassment of being the world's drug producer.
00:30:33.980They did take action in 2019 against the fentanyl itself, which forced the market to shift to precursors.
00:30:39.700They have taken some action within the last year or two also.
00:30:46.840There was a drop and you, you allude to that in your piece for the Manhattan Institute.
00:30:51.840There was a drop in, uh, opioid overdose deaths.
00:30:55.520I followed the British Columbia coroner's, um, monthly updates and I, I didn't realize that that was why there was a dip in 2019, the only year that went down.
00:31:06.820And, um, right now I think we're probably headed to a, uh, maybe a slight decrease this year.
00:31:15.820But, um, uh, still well above where things had been.
00:31:20.180It's, you know, it'd be lower than previous record years.
00:31:23.420So, you know, there's the good and the bad on that.
00:31:26.300Uh, you mentioned money laundering and I'd like to ask you about that.
00:31:31.640Um, if we're not a big player in supplying, what's Canada's role in money laundering?
00:31:37.940And we know that one of our big banks got their knuckles wrapped, uh, by American authorities, TD, which is, you know, it's a Canadian bank, but wow, it's pretty big along the U S Eastern seaboard now.
00:31:49.320Um, and then we've got what are called the, uh, the Vancouver model for money laundering that's since been moved to Toronto.
00:31:57.700I can tell you the price of real estate is, uh, is not doing well in part due to this part due to other issues, but how big is the money laundering here?
00:32:06.560If, if, if we're not selling the drugs, are we helping the cartels and the triads get their profits?
00:32:16.340So however, however difficult it is to have the global picture on what's going on with the drug trafficking, it's even harder to have really good data on the global picture of money laundering.
00:32:28.820Uh, but it does seem, uh, plausible to me that Canada's role in the money laundering side is relatively larger than, well, it's almost certainly going to be larger than Canada's role in having fentanyl shipments reach the United States because the quantity, uh, coming from Canada to the United States is so small.
00:32:50.380A lot of that money laundering, the drive on the money laundering does come from two sides.
00:32:58.600One is it's criminal organizations in the final market countries like Canada, the United States having cash that they need to, to, to launder.
00:33:09.220The other big driver is people in China wanting to get money out of the country.
00:33:14.240Um, so the currency controls in China create the other side of that.
00:33:22.660There's a lot of people in China who'd be thrilled to acquire assets in North America.
00:33:35.840And, and then you can buy a house that needs to be fixed up and then you can pay the contractors with the cash, which may have, um, less than savory origins.
00:33:50.440So let's talk about enforcement and what can be done.
00:33:55.040You, you mentioned that, you know, the, the tariff issue and whether that should be done, that's a political thing and not within your realm.
00:34:03.180Um, but in terms of enforcement for getting a hold of this, and it is a scourge on both sides.
00:34:10.460I believe we've lost more people to opioid deaths driven primarily by fentanyl in the last decade than we lost in all of the second world war.
00:34:21.400What in, you know, similar numbers for the United States.
00:34:26.160So this is something that we should all be taking seriously, be trying to get a hold of.
00:34:31.280Beyond the deaths, there is the, the life's destroyed, but still lived and the impact on communities.
00:34:38.560So how, what are effective methods for interrupting those supply chains?
00:34:47.280Rather than talk about tactics, the, just talk to a law enforcement officer about the tactics, but let's talk about the objectives or strategy or the vision for what law enforcement can do.
00:34:58.080And I would say there's sort of four schools of thought.
00:35:00.600One school of thought is supply control is, is hopeless, worthless.
00:35:03.720The market will always respond and it'll respond essentially immediately.
00:35:07.620All resources should just go on the demand side to treatment, harm reduction, and so on.
00:35:14.900At the other extreme are the people who have what I think is wildly naive hopes and expectations about the ability to, quote unquote, seal the border, um, eliminate the market completely.
00:35:26.800I don't think that's realistic because these substances are so compact.
00:35:35.720So those two extremes, I don't think make sense.
00:35:38.500One other view is to say we can shock a market if we get the right convergence of factors, sort of the perfect storm.
00:35:48.280And if that shock lasts a year or a year and a half so that the number of people dying drops by 25% for a year, year and a half, that's thousands of lives.
00:36:00.840And let's just say that's what we're trying to do.
00:36:03.380So that's sort of shock the market approach.
00:36:05.760The fourth idea is to say in 2025, it's really hard even to shock the market, let alone to shut it down.
00:36:15.620But what we can do is focus on the organizations that are most destructive, that create the most collateral harm.
00:36:24.820And this is a story that's easy to tell with regard to Mexico today.
00:36:29.400The organizations in Mexico are absolutely destructive to the fabric of Mexican society.
00:36:49.100That's causing destruction in society above and beyond just the distributing the drugs.
00:36:55.260So this fourth school of thought says, let's not put all drug traffickers in the same bin.
00:37:02.220Let's recognize that some of them are truly horrible in how they conduct their business and others are just trying to conduct their business.
00:37:13.040And to say that the mission of law enforcement is to make sure that these powerful and wealthy organizations are not undermining democratic institutions, are not intimidating journalists, and so on.
00:37:27.380And I tend to be in the third and the fourth.
00:37:30.100In terms of the third, as you were talking about shocking the market, one of the things that I was thinking about is that if we were to try that in certain parts of Canada, and I'm sure if you went to Portland or other parts of Oregon, you might have the same issue.
00:37:45.820We have gone so far down the harm reduction only rabbit hole that part of the illicit opioid supply now comes from harm reduction.
00:37:58.100Our elected officials and public health officials tried to deny this for years, but Thunder Bay, Ontario, way up north, is now supplied by harm reduction dillies coming out of London, Ontario.
00:38:10.460These pills, 8 mg diloploid, handed out like a PEZ dispenser, finding their ways up to northern Ontario because they aren't flooded with the market up there, and it's very lucrative.
00:38:22.160Or in British Columbia, it's being fed into the Calgary market.
00:38:26.340That creates new opioid addicts who then eventually go to fentanyl.
00:38:30.980And my thought was, if we keep doing this and then try and shock the market to interrupt, I don't think that it would make a difference.
00:38:39.620I believe in the four pillars of dealing with illicit drugs, which includes harm reduction, but I don't believe that harm reduction is the only way to go, and that's where some of our leadership has been over the past several years.
00:38:56.360Yeah, and let's be clear, harm reduction is a big tent concept that has many different specific programs in it.
00:39:04.840So, for instance, naloxone distribution wouldn't have any of the effects you're talking about because naloxone just blocks an opioid, it doesn't trigger the opioid receptors.
00:39:15.440You're really referring more specifically to this prescribed safer supply concept, which is tremendously controversial and very strong opinions on all sides of this.
00:39:26.680But one way to think about this is the real question is, do you supervise the consumption of the opioids that are being given by the medical system?
00:39:38.920With methadone in the United States, historically, we said, yes, we'll provide you with this other opioid called methadone, but you have to consume it on site.
00:39:50.020And the reason was, there was a secondary illegal market in diverted methadone when people were allowed to take home in large quantities.
00:40:00.980And at some level, it's like not surprising.
00:40:02.980If the government gives away for free anything that has a resale market, it doesn't have to be only opioids.
00:40:11.420If the government were giving away, I don't know, iPhones, then some people would say, thank you very much, I'm going to resell.
00:40:20.920And the temptation for reselling with prescribed safer supply is that those pills that are a controlled pharmaceutical dose sell for about triple per morphine equivalent dose what the unreliable illegal opioids sell for.
00:40:39.320So you could get a number of pills and then sell it for a number of dollars that allowed you to buy three times as many morphine equivalent doses of illegal opioids, mostly fentanyl, as the number of morphine equivalent doses that you receive from prescribed safer supply.
00:40:56.240So at some level, there's an arbitrage opportunity there.
00:40:59.500And unless you supervise the consumption, some people are going to...
00:42:39.640They gathered sea urchins for beach cookouts.
00:42:41.940Informal talks at an island hideaway intensified their respect for each other.
00:42:47.940And their mutual enjoyment of skin diving added to the rapport.
00:42:51.780In addition to a well-publicized 1976 summit meeting, Trudeau took three separate vacations to visit Castro after his time in politics had ended.
00:43:00.960I can make, you know, just one reference to Pierre Trudeau's sons to show the closeness of their relationship.
00:43:12.440The nickname that the Trudeau's sons had for Fidel Castro was Papa Fidel.
00:43:17.680So that gives you an indication of the closeness of the bond that existed between a communist dictator, you know, thorn in the side of every American administration for the past 50 years, and Pierre Trudeau.
00:43:32.720When Trudeau's youngest son, Michel, died in an avalanche in 1998, Castro called the family in tears to express his condolences.
00:43:41.740As an eight-year-old, Michel had referred to Fidel Castro as his best friend.
00:43:46.920When Pierre died, Fidel declared three days of mourning in Cuba and flew to Montreal to act as an honorary pallbearer.
00:43:53.720Every time Trudeau went down to Cuba, all the people in South Florida, you know, the exiles were thinking, why is this Western leader giving comfort to a murderous dictator, you know, who is oppressing their people in Cuba?
00:44:10.360And saying, you know, good things about Fidel Castro.
00:44:13.560And as I've mentioned, to have him in the pew at Trudeau's funeral in the front row as a dignified person when he had been such a brutal leader says more about Pierre Trudeau than it does about Fidel Castro.
00:44:33.600Here's where we should probably touch on what Castro had done, and what he was continuing to do while going on beach vacations with the Trudeau family.
00:44:42.800If you want to hear the rest of the story, make sure you subscribe to Canada Did What? everywhere you get your podcasts.