Civil liberties during the age of covet is a topic that affects us all. Civil liberties are a fundamental part of our being human, and we are all entitled to free speech, free speech and free assembly. In this episode, I speak with Michael Bryant, Executive Director and General Counsel of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, about civil liberties issues and the challenges they face.
00:00:00.000civil liberties during the age of covet it affects us all so you think it should be a unifying topic
00:00:09.220but it's surprisingly controversial i noticed an argument that appeared on my twitter feed a few
00:00:13.900weeks back where one person was just debating someone else and they claimed name a single
00:00:18.140civil liberty that's actually been violated right now this is all for public health it's to beat
00:00:22.340back a virus hold on though i say can't both those things be true simultaneously i mean even
00:00:27.460if you support all of the restrictions on our lives aren't they still civil liberties violations
00:00:32.260the government is telling you where you can go who you can see how far apart you can even stand from
00:00:37.480other human beings and what if it's not all justified what redress do we have is there anyone asking those
00:00:44.020questions is there anyone standing up for us well the canadian civil liberties association says that
00:00:49.580their current focus is on quote monitoring the response to covet 19 to ensure it's based on science
00:00:55.500and is not unnecessarily intrusive to our liberties let's get into how that experience has been
00:01:01.500unfolding for them so far michael bryant is executive director and general counsel of the
00:01:06.300canadian civil liberties association he joins us now hey michael how's it going good good to be here
00:01:11.900yeah thanks so much for joining us so many so many things we can discuss right now so many so much
00:01:17.700terrain we can cover so i guess i want to start by asking you as you've been watching all of this
00:01:21.980unfold the past well we're getting into a year and a half now what have been some of the the worst
00:01:26.520infringements that you have seen and the ones that have made you and your organization most go
00:01:30.620hold on a second let's have a talk here you know that's uh that's a difficult uh question to answer
00:01:38.060but i should be able to say that you know the top five worst civil liberties infringements over the past
00:01:44.320year uh i'd say um that recently uh a an important moment happened on the subject when uh the premier of
00:01:56.860ontario announced on a on a friday in um in april i believe it was that the uh government of ontario was
00:02:08.920uh going to undertake a full lockdown again and that they'd added police powers and this was where
00:02:16.360the civil liberties issue arose they were adding new police powers where the police could stop you on
00:02:21.340the street without reasonable and probable cause without having witnessed you committing a crime
00:02:27.740and could stop you detain you and undertake what in law we call search uh of the person in that you
00:02:37.500ask them for their identification and you'd compel them to answer you your your right to remain silent
00:02:44.700would not apply and you'd get a fine if you didn't answer them so this uh led to in the current
00:02:52.380uh climate with respect to anti-black racism immediately led uh our organization and and you know
00:03:01.040uh other organizations in particular uh chiefs of police across uh the province to react um negatively
00:03:11.260we retained counsel we said we're going to bring a constitutional challenge it is blatantly unconstitutional
00:03:16.460and uh the government reversed the what it was doing 24 hours later now why did it reduce
00:03:23.800reverse what it was doing why did it get rid of those police powers no question uh a big impact was
00:03:30.800uh the police force is speaking out against it and i'd like to think canadian civil liberties
00:03:36.480association was part of that uh effort to speak against it but the police forces were in essence
00:03:44.480saying this violation of rights is not one that we're willing to undertake and i think it was a a high
00:03:51.920point in civil liberties arising out of a low point in civil liberties and so uh as such uh it's you know
00:04:00.400from my perspective has a positive ending others uh do not have a positive ending and we can get into
00:04:08.540that but to give you one example right now um in the province of nova scotia uh the attorney general
00:04:18.060went to a court uh to through uh his agent to bring an ex parte injunction which means nobody else is
00:04:27.860nobody else is invited uh to make submissions and got that injunction from uh the nova scotia superior
00:04:36.160court and the injunction says no protests no protests during uh the uh pandemic number one and secondly you
00:04:48.720cannot promote a protest on the social media uh number two or you will violate this uh injunction so uh this
00:04:57.800is uh is uh and we're uh challenging it and have reached out to uh the prosecutor and alerted them
00:05:06.900that we are going to seek to strike strike out the um uh the injunction because it uh makes absolutely
00:05:15.340no effort to balance uh what it wants to do which is to reduce uh the chances of infection of the virus
00:05:24.300uh on the one hand with the constitutional right to free speech and free assembly uh on the other hand
00:05:31.160but let's just say even if for some reason we found that the virus works inversely with the
00:05:35.880indoor outdoor proven facts which is that it does spread outdoors indoors you're okay outdoors oh it
00:05:39.920spreads so we say well you know what no protest folks you can't gather and we go well okay even if we
00:05:44.760know this and even if the participants in in those protests uh are aware of that i mean uh michael how do
00:05:51.300we look at that issue of of how we should tackle this in a democracy people say okay well you know
00:05:55.960i've got a chance of getting this virus out and about in a protest but i am so passionate about
00:06:00.060black lives matter activism or pro-trump activism or anti-trump activism or or the palestinian or
00:06:06.420israeli or what have you that i'm going to take to the streets because i live in a democracy i mean
00:06:10.520how do we assess sort of those basic questions right well that is i mean we are uh mercifully we're a
00:06:18.300of laws and we don't just have to ask the question um from first principles and since 1982 we have had
00:06:28.240a charter of rights and freedoms so that um feeling that you just described uh listen i live i live in
00:06:35.060a democracy and i want to have the ability to go out there and protest that is a an activity that is a
00:06:41.960protected right under the charter and the constitution says in section one of the charter of
00:06:48.240rights that uh all laws and government actions have to comply with this charter of rights and
00:06:55.260freedoms which includes the freedom of expression freedom of assembly and in particular the right to
00:07:00.360protest so if you're going to limit the right to protest in other words by law uh then it's uh from
00:07:08.100my perspective i'd say it's like diamond cutting uh you you had you'd better not use an axe to cut the
00:07:15.060diamond because if you do you're going to violate the human right and the way that uh governments have
00:07:25.880successfully navigated through the charter while uh taking the public health precautions has been to
00:07:36.680try and uh do its best to accommodate the right which means uh you know in the case of a protest uh we have
00:07:47.380international examples uh of protests taking place consistent with public health advice so right near the
00:07:56.700beginning of the of the pandemic over a year ago there was a socially distanced masked protest in a
00:08:03.160uh huge open area uh in israel that took place uh that is videotaped and photographed and it was a
00:08:12.340beautiful illustration of um uh the uh respect for civil liberties on the one hand and the need on the
00:08:22.360other hand to uh put into place public health uh precautionary principle and that that's how that
00:08:29.140ought to be worked out and instead it's not a binary black or white uh debate uh if it is then the
00:08:37.560debate's clear the government does not have the ability to limit these rights except where it's
00:08:44.600necessary and proportionate proportionate that's an interesting term and i wanted to get your thoughts
00:08:49.920on how proportionality is playing out here one thing that's always frustrated me or that i thought is
00:08:55.040a bit perplexing is there's these videos that do the rounds of someone at a grocery store or a
00:08:58.860costco who's being dragged out by the police because they refuse to wear their mask they say
00:09:03.360that well i don't know what their reason is maybe they'll say they have a medical exemption or they
00:09:07.100consider themselves a conscientious objector maybe they're conspiracy theorists maybe they just didn't
00:09:10.700feel like wearing the mask that day i don't know so you got one guy out of 200 who doesn't want to
00:09:14.880wear the mask and i kind of look at this and i go okay well what's on it to you buddy you're just in
00:09:19.280the store 50 minutes just put on the mask who cares but at the same time it's like okay one guy
00:09:23.040out of 200 why do we even have to call the cops on them why can't the cops just say here's your
00:09:27.180twenty dollar ticket or your forty dollar ticket i mean why does it have to get to the point
00:09:30.900uh that it does in this situation i mean michael have we had a proportional response this past year
00:09:37.820and a half to to everything i you know i think that the uh by and large let's just take masking
00:09:47.160um that the instances where somebody has not worn a mask has been asked to wear it has refused
00:09:55.800and then um either uh um security guard or a police officer is called in right and the person is
00:10:04.500removed extremely marginal very rare uh i know that there are you know we know of some of these
00:10:12.640because they're on youtube but they we at civil you know canadian civil liberties association monitor
00:10:19.260uh this type of activity and you know in our view that's an area where the police officer ought to
00:10:26.480be exercising discretion and um the the instances where somebody's not going to leave the store
00:10:34.200uh under any circumstances um we are are so rare uh that i i i'm not sure it's worth going down the
00:10:44.880rabbit hole of talking about right you know what the de-escalation would look like i mean i think that
00:10:50.900the way you would manage that is you just have to give that person you'd have to say look either
00:10:56.260you're going to leave or we're going to sequester you and uh and you know try and de-escalate this
00:11:03.120and we're gonna you know inconvenience everybody for an hour and we're just going to wait until you
00:11:07.660either put on this mask or walk out the door uh but i'm not going to seize you and throw you out
00:11:12.660uh because it's just not necessary at this point so those are extremely rare circumstances uh i do
00:11:20.640not believe the police need to be called nearly as often as they do get called you know that's a
00:11:25.540a perfect example of one of the worst parts of our uh justice system which is that it's uh driven by
00:11:35.640these 9-1-1 calls uh the you know uh the large proportion of which involve people not i mean not
00:11:43.380not all but many people uh abuse the 9-1-1 system uh in the sense that they're calling 9-1-1 in
00:11:51.720circumstances when they shouldn't and often we have some research that shows that there's um people
00:11:57.500with a lot of anxiety uh may have a mental disorder maybe suffering from mental illness
00:12:04.060and that's driving the complaint more than anything else and i think a lot of the police calls whether
00:12:11.000it involves a mental health disorder or not they are driven by um fear and anger uh that is more to
00:12:20.160do with a pandemic than it has to do with civil liberties and actual public health facts speaking about
00:12:25.340people being fined uh how should how do you feel about this this maybe it's a growing sense that
00:12:32.660some people have that just well just give me the ticket because they've seen a couple governors in
00:12:36.580the u.s say okay i'm doing forgiveness for all of these fines that have been issued we see some legal
00:12:41.240rulings that see that things are maybe not necessarily going to be upheld i also think you
00:12:45.100know it's interesting you point out the police forces in ontario said uh-uh we're not doing this
00:12:48.820you know stop and identify everyone we've got mayors who are speaking out against some of the
00:12:53.580restrictions leading you to think well if i get ticketed for you know doing this outdoor soccer
00:12:57.920game when a mayor speaking out against it if if i even get a court date you know a few months later
00:13:02.040can't i just say hey look the the officials don't even support these laws i mean i guess what i'm
00:13:06.140trying to say is isn't this whole thing legally a mess michael uh it's it's it's complicated that's
00:13:13.240for sure and i think it was uh a mess a year ago uh but most of most uh police forces have
00:13:21.020uh learned to exercise some discretion and most police forces don't want to enforce and don't
00:13:28.200uh make it their business to uh crack down on what amounts to provincial offenses act offenses um
00:13:37.040in part because they feel that they should be spending time on real more serious crimes under
00:13:43.980the criminal code as opposed to in essence handing out what amounts to the equivalent of a speeding ticket
00:13:49.280uh to people um you know a year ago for sitting on a park bench uh we had to work out a few things
00:13:57.140firstly who's who has the authority to give these tickets and what kind of training do they have
00:14:01.580well if they're bylaw officers which in toronto they were and in other cities they were well then
00:14:07.440they might not have the training to understand what it would what it means to exercise discretion
00:14:11.980but to to answer your question directly i think that um people can certainly make uh defend their
00:14:22.160tickets and uh i think if they believe that the ticket was wrongly issued should do that um i believe
00:14:28.800that there ought to be an amnesty put into place possibly uh at the appropriate time um and it would
00:14:36.860have to be you know passed by law uh by executive councils or the and or the uh various legislatures
00:14:43.900and uh territories to uh to reflect the fact that there was some overzealous uh ticketing that took
00:14:53.240place and to reflect the fact that there's a disproportionately high number of people who were
00:14:58.780ticketed who were racialized minorities who were mentally ill who were homeless folks so uh but uh the law
00:15:06.780is still the law we have a rule of law so showing up and saying even the premiers for example or the
00:15:11.980mayor isn't a big fan of this law it doesn't matter uh that's not a defense uh the defense is you know i
00:15:18.700um uh either wasn't doing this or um you know you uh either make a constitutional argument yourself
00:15:26.940or you retain counsel to do that or you get ccli's help to do that and make the case that the law itself
00:15:34.240was disproportionate and therefore violates uh the charter of rights and freedoms and you know we
00:15:40.820may in fact get some uh results from provincial offenses act courts from superior courts divisional
00:15:47.580courts across the country that then become a precedent uh and used as a defense in other courts
00:15:53.100we've addressed a lot of this by the way for your listeners uh to check out on our website the
00:15:59.020canadian civil liberties association ccla.org we put out two reports on this business of uh ticketing
00:16:08.140and uh the enforcement of covet rules and uh we put one out in the in june of 2020 and we put one out
00:16:19.420two weeks ago and both show the patterns uh and the um uh i guess the uh variation that exists
00:16:30.240regionally in canada when it comes to the enforcement of uh covet rules um there's a there's you know
00:16:37.660basically a different approach in western canada than in quebec and in atlantic canada yeah that's
00:16:44.640that's really interesting angle for sure michael bryan i really want to get your thoughts on on
00:16:48.880the civil liberties conversation and issue sort of more generally now and also what what you predict
00:16:53.020are going to be the big ones uh kind of moving forward or what are the big ones right now but i
00:16:57.400guess as a bit of a segue question i mean right now during covid this has been sort of civil liberties
00:17:02.080conversations on you know on high octane or whatever like this has been major conversations uh
00:17:07.580that that are a greater volume than we usually have i mean how have you reflected on
00:17:12.220uh on civil liberties in general this past year and how should the public sort of reflect on on the
00:17:17.880issue i believe that overall more people are aware and have uh some thought into their civil liberties
00:17:28.080during covid than ever uh in recent memory uh certainly not uh during the life of the chart of
00:17:36.720rights and freedoms we've never had a moment where so many people were having their personal liberty
00:17:44.600or free speech um or right to privacy uh or a presumption of innocence uh they they were i mean
00:17:54.860literally millions of people were having their constitutionally protected rights limited by
00:18:01.880governments across the country uh more often than not in a way that was consistent with the
00:18:09.320constitution but caused them to ask the question you know i ran into somebody i was talking to somebody
00:18:15.380the other day and he said to me uh not knowing what i did for a living he said i just didn't know
00:18:20.860that governments could do this kind of thing i i didn't know that governments could tell us you know
00:18:25.780for example you got to wear a mask you can't go here you can't go there uh you know he was
00:18:31.560familiar with the criminal code but he didn't think that governments could shut down businesses and so
00:18:37.140on so i think that people are more aware of it uh number one which is positive secondly um i'd say
00:18:46.880most governments respected uh civil liberties most of the time during the pandemic but some governments
00:18:54.660did not uh some governments uh some governments really did play politics with covid and you know
00:19:02.820a good example of that i think is this injunction that was brought in nova scotia uh to to prohibit the um
00:19:10.900the uh protest i'm not for a moment saying that the judge was doing something political the judge
00:19:17.940was being judicious uh and you know we the way to disagree with that decision uh is to appeal it or
00:19:26.800to try and set it aside so i'm not complaining about uh the judgment although we may complain in court
00:19:32.920uh but it uh the the other area that jumps to mind is the restrictions on mobility rights and and
00:19:41.000my one of my biggest concerns coming out of the pandemic in terms of the long-term impact on rights
00:19:47.760is with respect to our mobility and citizenship rights namely uh in every other country that i know of
00:19:55.920uh no government even tries to stop you from going from one part of the country to another if you're a
00:20:03.480citizen of that country no u.s government even uh with all the variety of different approaches
00:20:10.440uh state to state has tried to stop for example somebody from mississippi from crossing over into
00:20:17.020arkansas it just hasn't happened uh in the states and it makes canada look more like the european union
00:20:25.200or um you know a transnational uh organization of provinces than a country and it really violates
00:20:36.460uh the the i think the underlying thesis of this country of uh 1867 when we were
00:20:45.160uh a bunch of uh a bunch of separate um colonies and nations and decided no no we can do more
00:20:53.720together than we can apart so let's let's unite uh be one country build a railroad across this country
00:21:01.640and uh and do that together and whereas with covid uh the you know the um the come from away
00:21:13.000province of newfoundland uh was one of the first to say uh not come from away but stay away wow uh
00:21:23.160if you're not a resident of this province and so we brought a challenge in newfoundland uh and that
00:21:31.460that challenge is now going to the court of appeal it's a test case other provinces have done the same
00:21:36.780thing and uh you know i believe that the impact of that is going to be significant because uh this is a
00:21:46.460constitutional right under section six of the charter and under the division of powers uh in the 1867
00:21:53.720constitution we're supposed to be able to go where we you know into another province into another
00:22:00.360territory uh without any restriction and the idea that uh provinces can have border guards at the
00:22:07.080provincial borders i think is wrong uh i and i i haven't seen a single instance in which it's been
00:22:13.960justified based on the test of necessity and proportionality with um reference to evidence uh and uh
00:22:24.360uh uh and and that and i'd say probably the protest rights and the free speech rights are the areas
00:22:31.280that got the roughest ride during the pandemic are you worried that maybe some of these restrictions
00:22:36.120have somewhat become normalized in terms of the next crisis the next incident even if you don't a hundred
00:22:42.080percent need these things many people today have now accepted the fact that yes government can tell
00:22:46.920you what you can and can't do down to the micro details of you know who you can invite into your home
00:22:51.560how far apart you have to stand uh for other people i mean have have we crossed a line right now that
00:22:56.320that perhaps you know psychologically or or democratically well maybe it's going to make it
00:23:01.840easier to cross that line again i think it depends on the area uh and uh like firstly i i want to say
00:23:11.360i don't know exactly uh what has been happening in first nation reserves but i've received um feedback
00:23:19.040from first nation reserves people who have said that a number of first nation governments have
00:23:25.340uh been disproportionate and highly restrictive uh within the reserve so uh can you give me an
00:23:33.640example compared to uh there may be a lasting impact uh an example of one first nation is that they
00:23:42.040uh council invited the rcmp uh to engage in warrantless entry into people's homes and uh you know
00:23:52.340that's an example uh you know if in other words if the police are walking by and they see a bunch of
00:23:56.800shoes on the front step they're allowed to enter and you know we would take we would we would say no
00:24:02.980you need to go get a warrant to do that because the um uh the the bar the bar is higher than that
00:24:09.420for warrantless entry and uh and the special circumstances that would allow someone to enter
00:24:14.460a home uh that's on the one hand on the other hand uh like i said i'm not going to repeat myself
00:24:20.800with respect to mobility rights my concern is that that's going to stay and we're going to have0.94
00:24:25.000provincial borders uh in place in this country uh that will stay uh beyond um the the life of the
00:24:35.280pandemic uh and uh thirdly i i i i'm concerned about something that never got fixed or hasn't been
00:24:43.620fixed to date uh but has to get fixed uh going forward and that is firstly uh the executive orders
00:24:52.280the cabinet orders the regulations to get passed by these governments that set out what the restrictions
00:24:58.620are they have got to be released uh prior to uh going into legal effect and they ought to be released
00:25:08.400in my view uh in draft form um even before they go to uh provincial or territorial or federal cabinets
00:25:17.800uh when legislation passes uh it's not at all difficult to follow a bill uh through to a law
00:25:27.300uh online uh using the various legislative assembly um hansard uh online but they would say we're in
00:25:36.040an emergency and we don't have time for that so how would you sort of respond to that i mean i take
00:25:40.720your point it's something to see this stuff brought in you know immediately you must follow this and
00:25:44.800opposition can't even talk about it yeah but well if it's an executive order it's not something that
00:25:51.600would come up for debate from the opposition until it was brought into law and then it could be
00:25:58.100criticized but you know we we are uh as i said a nation of laws uh not people uh so this is not it
00:26:07.300doesn't matter if the premier or a prime minister uh stands up at a podium and says here's what you have
00:26:12.760to do it doesn't matter they have no legal authority uh themselves to tell people what to do it's the
00:26:21.120legal orders that uh provide the authority to restrict people's freedoms and so we need to0.61
00:26:27.740know what they are when they become clear sorry when when they are passed and some provinces are great
00:26:33.820at that and when the premier stands up and makes an announcement at a podium says here are the new
00:26:38.680rules they attach the law the idea that they don't have time to write the law i mean if they don't have
00:26:45.720time to write the law then then it's not a law uh they have to take the time to get it right because
00:26:52.520that's how our country works we we're not we're not an anarchy which turns on the whims of a despot
00:26:58.520we are a nation of laws under our constitution and if there's going to be a new law passed that tells
00:27:05.380people what to do and it affects their constitutional rights we need to know what it is but the federal
00:27:11.140government and a number of provincial governments will announce here are the new rules and then you
00:27:16.340won't get the law for two or three days so if you're a business that needs to comply with the law
00:27:22.280uh you can't go on what was said at the podium you need to know exactly what the law says so that needs
00:27:29.220to be changed and secondly our justice system has got to grow up and and permit the capacity
00:27:38.180of ccla or any other public interest litigant or individual to bring a matter before the courts
00:27:45.700and have it go through the courts in timely fashion uh we you know we have shown our system
00:27:53.780to be so slow and plagued with delays during covid that we now embarrassingly have a situation where
00:28:02.900in the united states the u.s supreme court have issued a dozen decisions on government laws and
00:28:12.180the bill of rights during covid a dozen decisions in canada we we don't have a single case that has even
00:28:20.580gone to the supreme court of canada on this issue we have one case that i know of going to uh the
00:28:27.860newfoundland court of appeal but you know we're waiting for the hearing on that and that's it uh
00:28:33.780now you can say oh they're a lot more litigious than us in the united states well are they a lot
00:28:39.540more litigious because they've got a better justice system or is it a is it a cultural moment i can tell
00:28:45.860you that it's too difficult and too expensive and too slow to bring public interest litigation in canada
00:28:53.140uh and that that has got to change that doesn't mean we're going to stop doing it we're we're going
00:28:58.500to do it more than ever uh and we have and we've gone to court more than any other organization uh
00:29:04.340during covid uh but we um often won't simply because we know that by the time a matter got heard uh the
00:29:15.620issue would be moved and we and you know we don't want to waste any we don't want to waste everybody's
00:29:19.700time with that one thing i find so interesting about this conversation michael bryant is we're
00:29:23.060listening to you talk about uh challenging the government you got to shake up the system you
00:29:26.740know public interest law and so forth we go wow you know he's really sticking it to the man
00:29:30.500well hold on a second though you used to be the man you held a number of cabinet uh posts in the
00:29:35.620ontario government uh under dalton mcginty's uh tenure as premier including as attorney general
00:29:40.900for a few years where you know if the pandemic had hit then you would be one of the people uh
00:29:45.700faced with making these decisions at cabinet and also putting together uh many of these laws that
00:29:50.740that we currently would have in place how have you reflected on this in this context that you're
00:29:55.220really someone who's who's seen things from both sides well i i mean i certainly uh do bring that
00:30:02.820experience to my job and it allows me to uh um not just speculate on what an attorney general ought to
00:30:11.940be doing at the cabinet table and what uh his or her agents ought to be doing uh throughout the
00:30:17.940various governments that are out there um and uh you know i'm also um uh aware of the pressure that
00:30:28.020comes about on governments and what uh dynamic at a cabinet table would likely be and what the dynamic
00:30:36.340within a premier's office would be and i and and as such uh you know i'm i i think that um
00:30:45.460we it's safe to say that as a result we don't bring speculative phishing expedition litigation
00:30:52.580or challenges we uh we do so with the uh information and knowledge of how government works
00:30:58.740uh but you know my uh my perspective and outcome changed dramatically 10 years ago um uh it really
00:31:10.740after the accident uh and the death of uh darcy allen shepherd uh i just uh my life changed and uh it
00:31:21.300wasn't just with that incident uh i soon found myself uh spending time with um indigent and indigenous0.99
00:31:31.140people and spending time in the in the courts defending people many of whom in mental illnesses and
00:31:38.420uh and addictions and came to see uh what the system was like for them uh i'm not saying what it was
00:31:47.940like for me you can't really build a justice system around how to treat a former attorney general so i'm
00:31:53.780not talking about my for my circumstances i mean i was um obviously humbled by the experience and out
00:32:03.300of that humility uh came to learn and see and open up to um all of the injustices uh that were taking
00:32:11.620place so that was quite a flashpoint saga here in in in toronto in ontario all across canada it
00:32:17.700was it was a cultural moment and people they they they argued about it amongst themselves i mean
00:32:22.740everybody at the dinner table fought about it it was almost a culture war situation uh the
00:32:27.700listeners who aren't familiar where you you had an incident on bloor street in toronto where there's
00:32:31.380a bicycle courier who uh actually you described the event in great detail in your book uh 28 seconds
00:32:36.660it's it's detailed in a lot of writing there and at the end of this 28 seconds uh the bicycle courier
00:32:41.780he was he was deceased uh in this accident that you had with him when you were driving in your
00:32:45.940vehicle and some people saw this as you know as this sort of connected uh politician rich lawyer
00:32:50.580guy in his fancy car and a downtrodden uh individual uh first nations gentleman other
00:32:55.780people said look i bicycle down the streets of toronto i walked on them i'm a driver these
00:32:59.940bike couriers man they are just crazy i could see this incident happen to me well man i understand how
00:33:04.500that happened oh i feel for michael bryant i mean it was such a flashpoint i mean looking back now
00:33:10.340what do you think about that as a i i appreciate you have your points about uh how you went and
00:33:15.700you know it's been transformational for you but as as that is a cultural moment how do you reflect
00:33:20.100on that oh i'll let others reflect on it uh the extent that i reflected on it it's in the book it's in
00:33:26.90028 seconds and i really don't have anything more to say about it it's uh uh to the extent that it's a cultural
00:33:33.540moment um i was a uh um um someone who was a part of it but it's not for me to define what happened or
00:33:43.060to suggest what happened because um i'm an unreliable narrator on that front but the um but the uh
00:33:52.980but you know in terms of uh where i sit uh now um uh you know certainly uh the experience
00:34:03.780changed me and it's not to say that i uh think that the glass is entirely empty uh nor did i ever
00:34:11.460think it was entirely full when i was in government but uh you know i'm i'm just a lot more focused on
00:34:17.700the injustices now than in where my job before was to defend and shore up the justice system right uh and
00:34:26.420to and to a large degree to uh make changes where they were needed and i did some but i didn't uh do
00:34:36.980uh i didn't undertake the changes that i ought to have and and i uh discussed that in the book let me
00:34:43.540ask you not not here not here to suggest that i um uh would uh would have been the best pandemic
00:34:51.860attorney uh i think uh my role the best place for me to be is where i'm at right now let me ask you
00:34:57.700before we go what are those big challenges those big battles that we have ahead of us with civil
00:35:02.980liberties we have a more and more free speech conversations uh i hear some people argue oh
00:35:08.100free speech that's just a thing you know dubious people uh put forward so they can get away with
00:35:13.140saying you know whatever hateful things we want we need to tighten down those rules those regulations
00:35:17.540uh there's a lot of stuff happening in the online world digital ids that are emerging lots of
00:35:23.300questions about bill c10 right now is a hot button issue in canada what is the future of civil liberties
00:35:29.860because i feel like it's it's only going to ratchet up soon yeah i think you're right that data privacy
00:35:36.660uh is uh unquestionably uh going to be a major issue in for the next 10 years uh and as long as canada
00:35:45.540uh continues to uh have a really old dated law um federally um we're we're in a very tough spot and
00:35:58.420uh canadians uh privacy rates are being compromised uh because there is no law really to deal with it
00:36:06.100in canada appropriately uh when it comes to protecting consumers secondly um you're right i think we'll
00:36:14.580continue to have uh debates about uh uh really it's equality versus free speech in a nutshell that's
00:36:24.100what the debate boils down to and uh ccla uh we our job is to uh protect both and so you know we have to
00:36:33.940make decisions from time to time where we uh agree that one needs to be uh limited uh in the name of the other um and lastly uh again i just to repeat the i think the challenge is to to build a justice system that allows for timely judicial review uh because right now too much of what the executive branch does goes unreviewed
00:37:01.940goes unreviewed and too much of what the legislative branch does goes unreviewed because the judicial branch
00:37:09.780is uh so limited in its capacity to provide uh timely answers to urgent legal questions
00:37:20.100michael bryan thanks so much for joining us today really fascinating conversation
00:37:23.620thank you all the best michael bryan is executive director and general counsel of the canadian civil
00:37:31.620liberties association full comment is a post media podcast i'm anthony fury this episode was produced
00:37:37.140by andre prue with theme music by bryce hall kevin liban is the executive producer you can subscribe
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