Full Comment - How the Liberal-NDP deal could damage democracy

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00:01:58.720 Hello, I'm Anthony Fury.

00:02:05.360 Thanks for joining us for the latest episode of Full Comet.

00:02:08.060 Please consider subscribing to the podcast if you haven't already.

00:02:11.300 Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and NDP leader Jagmeet Singh have brokered a deal to form a coalition

00:02:16.220 that guarantees the Liberals stay in power until at least 2025.

00:02:22.420 Oops, my bad. I misspoke.

00:02:23.840 They say you're not allowed to call it a coalition.

00:02:25.300 We've got to use its technical name, a supply and confidence agreement.

00:02:29.580 And we'll break down the details of that in a bit.

00:02:31.560 But whatever you call it, what does it really mean?

00:02:34.640 What are its implications?

00:02:36.320 Trudeau and Singh say it means all of your progressive dreams will now come true.

00:02:40.740 But the conservative opposition say it's a power grab that leads to backdoor socialism.

00:02:45.800 Our guest today says that what it could be is something even worse than a coalition and potentially even more damaging to our democracy.

00:02:54.620 Howard Anglin has reflected a lot on these sorts of issues over the years in his capacity as a postgraduate researcher at Oxford University,

00:03:01.780 a lawyer who has worked all around the world and most relevant to our discussion today as Deputy Chief of Staff to Prime Minister Stephen Harper

00:03:09.080 and Principal Secretary to Alberta Premier Jason Kenney.

00:03:12.980 Howard Anglin joins us now.

00:03:14.740 Howard, great to have you on the show.

00:03:15.900 Thanks for stopping by.

00:03:17.500 Thank you very much for having me.

00:03:18.580 You wrote an article about this situation in The Hub, and you mentioned in this article that this could be a scenario worse than a coalition.

00:03:28.180 What did you mean by that?

00:03:30.000 It's a good question.

00:03:31.800 And answering it, I think, takes us to the heart of how the parliamentary system works in Canada.

00:03:38.360 But obviously, we get our system from the Westminster system in the United Kingdom.

00:03:44.480 And the system in its current form goes back about 200 years.

00:03:48.580 And at its core is a principle called responsible government.

00:03:53.840 And responsible government is a very, a lot has been written about it.

00:03:59.640 It can get very complex when you get into the weeds.

00:04:02.060 But at its core, it is the principle that the Queen's ministers are not just responsible to the Queen, to the Crown,

00:04:11.780 but they're also responsible to the elected members of Parliament.

00:04:18.140 And we can get into how that works, both in theory and in practice.

00:04:22.500 And I think it's very, it's very important to get into that, to understand why, why I say that this could be worse.

00:04:31.220 But the simple answer is responsible government rests on the accountability of the government, the cabinet, the ministers,

00:04:41.940 the people who sit around the table with Justin Trudeau and Justin Trudeau himself every day, being accountable to Parliament.

00:04:49.320 And that accountability is enforced through the threat of non-confidence votes,

00:04:54.700 where Parliament at any point can vote to replace the government effectively.

00:04:58.740 The NDP, in this case, has said that it will not do that for three years.

00:05:05.780 Absolutely not.

00:05:07.440 It didn't list any exceptions.

00:05:09.720 It didn't say we won't do it if, unless there's a major scandal,

00:05:13.740 we won't do it unless the Liberal Party does something that we deeply disagree with, declares war, something like that.

00:05:22.120 It doesn't include any exceptions like that.

00:05:24.100 In principle, we can get to what it means in practice, but in principle, they've given carte blanche to the government to do whatever it wants.

00:05:32.280 And that's removed the accountability mechanism that is at the heart of responsible government.

00:05:37.140 So government doesn't have to worry now about being accountable to Parliament for three years, in principle.

00:05:43.260 Now, Jagmeet Singh, he did say at the press conference, announcing all of this, that he's like,

00:05:47.700 OK, we've signed this deal, but I can really rescind it at any time, and we're still going to be attentive,

00:05:53.180 making sure Trudeau abides by the things we want him to abide by.

00:05:56.380 So he would say, no, that he's left himself many outs.

00:05:59.780 But I guess what I don't really understand is, why sign a deal like this,

00:06:04.260 suggesting there aren't going to be any outs between now and 2025, but then also try and say that there will be?

00:06:10.300 I mean, I don't really understand the argument he's making there.

00:06:13.060 Yeah, so what I just said, and all the stuff about responsible government and the theory,

00:06:18.920 and why this, if the agreement is taken at face value, why it could be worse,

00:06:24.280 because it evades this process of responsible government and accountability.

00:06:29.620 That's all premised on the agreement actually meaning what it says.

00:06:33.940 And I think in politics, it's reasonable to hold people accountable to things they put in writing,

00:06:41.020 things they sign, and things that they make clear.

00:06:43.660 And that agreement makes all that clear.

00:06:45.540 Of course, in reality, the agreement could be torn up tomorrow.

00:06:50.540 There's no enforcement mechanism.

00:06:51.860 It's not a formal contract.

00:06:53.020 It's not like your mortgage or a lease or something.

00:06:55.960 Of course it could, but then that just prompts the question,

00:06:59.240 what was the point of the agreement, which is your question.

00:07:01.480 So either the agreement is toothless, I wrote this in the article,

00:07:07.260 either the agreement is actually toothless, in which case, why are we talking about it?

00:07:11.740 Or it means something, but the NDP has made themselves toothless.

00:07:17.520 It's got to be one or the other.

00:07:19.300 And I don't know which it is.

00:07:20.960 Time will prove which it is.

00:07:22.760 But it can't be a very important groundbreaking agreement on the one hand,

00:07:27.980 but also be something that can be torn up tomorrow.

00:07:31.140 I find it quite remarkable when you actually read the text of this agreement,

00:07:34.660 and it's posted on the prime minister's website.

00:07:36.540 It's written like it's a platform or like it's a mini throne speech or a mini budget.

00:07:43.900 They say, we've made this deal, and here are the terms of the deal.

00:07:46.660 We're going to be having our different whips meeting and our senior staff meeting on a monthly basis or what have you,

00:07:52.200 and here are all the different items that we're going to be working towards for the next few years.

00:07:56.920 And I'm looking at this.

00:07:58.120 I'm going, this is a very odd kind of document.

00:08:00.920 Like it's kind of a platform, but we're not in an election.

00:08:05.020 These are things that the NDP talked about these things during the election,

00:08:08.040 but they are not the first place, not the second place, not the third place party in parliament.

00:08:11.760 So what gives?

00:08:12.840 The liberals have suddenly picked it up.

00:08:14.700 Is this a thing that the people should have more of a say in?

00:08:19.880 Yes, ideally.

00:08:22.080 Ideally, the people should have as much say as possible in how our governments run

00:08:25.440 within the limits of popular control and government expertise, on the other hand.

00:08:31.860 There's a healthy tension between the two.

00:08:34.180 But yes, I think what you're getting at is nobody voted for this.

00:08:37.700 This is, and this is why I think some people have said the NDP have effectively given

00:08:44.460 Trudeau and the liberals a majority government without having earned it.

00:08:50.700 So people did not vote for this.

00:08:53.700 And you can't just add up the 32 and a half percent of people who voted for the liberals

00:09:00.400 and the 17 or so percent who voted for the NDP and say, aha, 50%, it's a majority.

00:09:05.960 No, because the 17% of NDP did not vote for liberals and the 32% voted for liberals did

00:09:12.380 not vote for the NDP.

00:09:13.620 Nobody voted for this and nobody voted for, no 50% of Canadians or even enough to get a

00:09:20.860 majority in parliament, which is much less, voted for this plan.

00:09:26.040 Now, Howard, I've heard a lot of people say you can do it.

00:09:29.060 It doesn't break any rules.

00:09:30.360 So what's the problem?

00:09:31.360 But I feel like part of the problem is that because this isn't done often or has pretty

00:09:36.880 much not really been done at the federal level before, people are acclimatized to the way

00:09:41.360 the system functions, immaterial of the technical rules.

00:09:44.900 And while this may technically not violate our democracy, I feel like it violates the spirit

00:09:49.680 of our democratic norms.

00:09:51.400 Is that a fair assessment?

00:09:53.660 Absolutely.

00:09:54.140 I think that's a really good way of putting it.

00:09:57.860 We have a very strange political system.

00:10:01.140 And as I said, we inherited it from the English and, well, the United Kingdom.

00:10:05.160 And it's very equally strange over there.

00:10:07.440 And it's strange in the sense that very few of the rules by which we are governed are actually

00:10:12.200 written down.

00:10:13.460 We have a constitution from 1867 that sort of divides power between the provinces and the

00:10:19.000 federal government.

00:10:20.200 And then we have a charter and a 1982 constitution, which provides sort of a bill of rights and

00:10:27.180 certain other guarantees around language and other sort of core substantive matters.

00:10:33.940 But actually how our government works day to day is not written down, except in the standing

00:10:40.480 orders of the House of Commons and of the Senate.

00:10:43.780 But those are creations of the House of Commons and the Senate, and they can be changed.

00:10:47.440 What it rests on then is a series of practices and principles and conventions that have grown

00:10:56.160 up over centuries.

00:10:58.160 And at the core of that is this idea that the government, and by government, I have to be

00:11:07.120 very clear about these terms because a lot of these things get used interchangeably.

00:11:11.180 The government in the sense of the executive branch of the cabinet, the people that actually

00:11:16.280 run government day to day, the ministers who run all the ministries, defense, health, transport,

00:11:22.100 that is the government.

00:11:23.280 In the American system, they are outside of the legislature.

00:11:26.580 You have the president and the cabinet who exist in their own world.

00:11:30.880 In our system, they are embedded in the legislature.

00:11:34.460 Each minister is a member of the legislature.

00:11:36.640 And this is what the Victorian theorist of the Constitution, Walter Badgett, called the efficient

00:11:44.480 secret of the Westminster parliamentary system.

00:11:47.240 And it's efficient because by embedding or partially fusing the government with the legislature,

00:11:54.860 it forces the government to work with the legislature day to day to get its agenda passed.

00:11:59.400 And this healthy tension produces scrutiny and accountability for the government on a daily basis.

00:12:09.040 And we see this in question period and committees.

00:12:12.600 And this is enforced by sort of a mutual assured destruction policy.

00:12:20.320 Obviously, it's not a great analogy, but on each side, the government or the legislature,

00:12:24.640 they can end this at any time.

00:12:26.360 The government can go to the crown.

00:12:28.280 If it's having trouble getting its agenda passed through the legislature, if its policies are not

00:12:33.720 getting through, if it thinks it can't get funding, it can go to the governor general and ask for

00:12:40.640 the legislature to be dissolved and make its case to the people and hope that more members are elected

00:12:45.900 who will support their agenda so they can get it passed in the new legislature after the election.

00:12:51.260 On the other hand, the legislature at any time, if it loses what's called confidence in the government,

00:12:57.780 if it disagrees fundamentally with what the government is doing, it can vote non-confidence in the government,

00:13:02.820 which also triggers an election.

00:13:04.460 So either the legislature or the government can trigger an election at any time.

00:13:08.280 And that produces the incentive for them to work together and the accountability that keeps the government honest,

00:13:15.900 and what the NDP has done here is said, we are not going to vote no-confidence in the government for three years.

00:13:21.160 We're not going to move a motion, and we're not going to vote for a motion if the conservatives of the bloc raise a motion.

00:13:27.560 So they've essentially removed the accountability mechanism for the government for three years.

00:13:32.340 Now, as you said earlier, Jagmeet Singh says he might still hold them to account,

00:13:38.220 but then that brings us back to the question of what was the point of the agreement.

00:13:41.020 On the terms of the agreement, they are giving the government effectively a pass from accountable government for three years.

00:13:48.040 And that's why I said at the beginning this could be worse than actual coalition government,

00:13:52.400 where the government is still potentially held to account.

00:13:54.280 Now, the NDP has already sent out press releases and messages to the media, to its supporters,

00:14:00.120 saying this is a great victory for us because the issues that we are passionate about,

00:14:05.200 the things we want to deliver to Canadians, are included in this deal,

00:14:08.940 and we will have been able to bring about a dental plan for seniors, for low-income Canadians,

00:14:13.600 and various other pledges that the NDP has been pushing for,

00:14:17.060 and that is what makes this deal entirely worth it.

00:14:19.340 And I know, Howard, when some people have been talking about this deal,

00:14:21.940 they have not been talking about the sort of back-end components of it,

00:14:26.740 the democratic principles of it.

00:14:28.060 They've just been talking about the policy issues.

00:14:31.440 Can one separate these in the discussion?

00:14:34.200 Should they always be merged?

00:14:35.580 How do you deal with that aspect?

00:14:36.940 The idea of, oh, if we poll Canadians, should there be a dental plan?

00:14:40.100 And you get, okay, 60% say yes.

00:14:41.920 There you go.

00:14:42.440 So this actually greenlights everything that's going on right now.

00:14:45.620 Another good question.

00:14:46.740 I'd say four things, but two are very quick.

00:14:50.580 One, put aside the issue that health care is actually largely a provincial responsibility,

00:14:56.520 which the NDP has never seen a national plan they don't love.

00:15:02.440 I remember seeking, promoting once a national biking strategy or something.

00:15:07.080 Anyway, so let's put aside the constitutional division of powers on this issue.

00:15:13.060 Let's also put aside the popularity of these things.

00:15:16.740 Because, okay, well, let's put aside the popularity for now.

00:15:23.740 I think it's relevant, and I think we can come back to that as a pure sort of political horse race question

00:15:31.240 about what this means for each party.

00:15:34.380 Why have the liberals not done this before?

00:15:36.040 Why are they doing it now?

00:15:37.020 So, part of that.

00:15:38.960 The two other elements, though, are, one, will they actually be able to get these policies through

00:15:46.520 with the liberal support within three years?

00:15:49.300 And I think, while it's possible to lock in some progress on these issues,

00:15:54.880 the wheels of the federal government just don't move fast enough to actually create

00:15:57.940 the policies that they're looking for in the short time frame,

00:16:02.600 considering all the work that has to be done, coordinating with the provinces,

00:16:05.780 working with Quebec, because, as you know, Quebec already has some of these things,

00:16:08.940 like PharmaCare.

00:16:10.680 So, I think the NDP may have sold themselves a bit short on this by not, then, for example,

00:16:20.740 insisting on saying, well, we want the Minister of Health to be an NDP member,

00:16:26.800 so we can actually make sure that progress is made on this,

00:16:29.520 and we can actually hold the government more to account directly within Cabinet

00:16:32.520 and be part of the actual governing coalition, and that would be a coalition government.

00:16:37.080 So, I think the NDP has a great press release right now,

00:16:41.560 but that doesn't necessarily mean that they will actually have results by 2025.

00:16:45.640 The other part, though, and this gets back to the process that I'm most concerned about

00:16:49.740 and what I wrote about, and that is, there's more to government than legislation.

00:16:57.440 In fact, legislation is a very small part of government.

00:16:59.920 What a government does in the House of Commons is very public,

00:17:03.780 but most of what government actually does is done outside of Parliament.

00:17:08.480 And I cited examples in my article for, so the Declaration of the Emergencies Act,

00:17:12.760 for example, that happened outside of Parliament.

00:17:14.860 It's only later that you get accountability or non-accountability in Parliament.

00:17:18.500 Going to war, providing military aid to Ukraine,

00:17:21.860 something the NDP opposed up until very recently, that's done outside Parliament.

00:17:25.820 Setting immigration levels.

00:17:29.520 Distributing literally tens of billions of dollars of grant money every year.

00:17:33.480 I mean, the way the government actually implements its policies.

00:17:37.000 That's all done outside of the House of Commons.

00:17:40.500 And so are bad things.

00:17:42.160 The sponsorship scandal that we remember from the 1990s,

00:17:45.500 that all happened outside of Parliament.

00:17:49.080 Trudeau's ethics violations happened outside of Parliament.

00:17:52.300 International diplomacy, whether we're being an effective leader on the world stage.

00:17:57.760 I have it outside of Parliament.

00:17:59.800 And we rely on Parliament to actually hold government accountable within the House

00:18:04.040 for all the things it does outside the House of Commons.

00:18:07.320 And by saying that in exchange for a few pieces of legislation,

00:18:11.900 even very important pieces of legislation,

00:18:14.040 the NDP will not vote non-confidence of the government,

00:18:17.860 means that it's not going to hold the government.

00:18:19.340 It's saying it won't hold the government accountable

00:18:22.360 for all the things that the government does

00:18:24.700 day-to-day outside the House of Commons.

00:18:27.400 It puts all the focus on pieces of legislation,

00:18:30.120 which, as I've said, I think it's unlikely to get that much progress on,

00:18:34.040 in exchange for giving up its oversight role

00:18:36.600 for all the myriad things that ministers, the prime minister,

00:18:40.680 the cabinet, and the government do day-to-day to run the country.

00:18:44.340 We'll be back with more full comment with Howard Anglin in just a moment.

00:18:49.340 Howard Anglin, one thing that came to mind

00:19:06.760 when I was watching this being announced is

00:19:08.980 who first came up with this idea?

00:19:11.480 Who presented it to who?

00:19:12.820 Was it a liberal idea, an NDP idea?

00:19:15.120 Seems like it was likely a liberal idea.

00:19:17.460 Why do you think the liberals are doing this right now?

00:19:21.680 So the answer I've heard most often is,

00:19:25.280 well, this buys Trudeau peace for three years.

00:19:29.040 A minority government means that you're always on a war footing.

00:19:31.280 You're always worried about an election being called.

00:19:33.720 And this way he gets peace of mind so he can

00:19:35.940 govern without having to worry about an election for three years.

00:19:41.720 He effectively gets a majority government, as we discussed.

00:19:44.320 I think there's something to that.

00:19:47.480 But as you pointed out, Jagmeet Singh has actually said

00:19:50.180 he's not going to actually give the government a complete pass.

00:19:53.480 He's talking about both sides of his mouth.

00:19:55.040 He's saying the government gets a pass.

00:19:56.860 The government doesn't get a pass.

00:19:58.380 The realities of politics are the liberal government becomes massively unpopular.

00:20:03.220 There's still a good chance we can have an election before 2025.

00:20:06.800 So Trudeau may not have, he may have bought himself peace in the short term,

00:20:10.300 but he doesn't necessarily buy himself three full years.

00:20:12.660 Now, so why did they do this?

00:20:16.800 Well, I think, I think it's because,

00:20:21.500 I'm going to put on a slightly partisan hat here,

00:20:24.100 which I try not to do in my commentary.

00:20:25.940 I think the liberal party is out of ideas.

00:20:28.060 The liberal party is a stale and listless party.

00:20:31.100 It is out of energy.

00:20:32.600 It's out of ideas.

00:20:33.880 What's the last big idea that the liberal party had that you can think of?

00:20:37.120 They're out of ideas.

00:20:39.920 The only ideas that are left out there on their side of the aisle,

00:20:44.080 center left to far left, are the NDP's old ideas.

00:20:47.760 So I think what they've got here is a policy transplant.

00:20:51.620 It's an agenda transfusion.

00:20:53.340 It's the political equivalent of a heart or a brain transplant and a blood transfusion from the NDP.

00:21:02.220 So now what we're left with is this sort of strange,

00:21:05.180 think of like, I'm dating myself here,

00:21:07.500 that old young Frankenstein movie or something.

00:21:09.280 We have a Frankenstein's monster with a liberal body with an NDP brain and blood right now. 1.00

00:21:16.220 And I think that Trudeau is probably okay with this because deep down,

00:21:23.700 he is more ideologically, intellectually, emotionally aligned with the NDP

00:21:30.220 than he is to the old Chrétien, Martin, let alone Wilfrid Laurier liberal party,

00:21:35.460 even his dad's liberal party.

00:21:36.660 I mean, there's an irony here that he was a, to put it crudely,

00:21:42.360 he was chosen as the leader of the liberal party for his name.

00:21:47.740 After failures of Dylan and Ignatiev,

00:21:51.020 Trudeau was selected because he was a Trudeau and that inspired people.

00:21:55.520 But the irony is that almost as soon as he became the leader,

00:21:58.920 he showed that had he not been born with the last name Trudeau,

00:22:02.020 he probably would be a more natural member of the NDP or the Green Party.

00:22:05.020 And his policies have reflected that.

00:22:08.980 So I think he finally gets to govern with the liberal brand

00:22:12.760 and the NDP Green policies that he actually deep down supports.

00:22:18.820 Howard, to what degree do you think we may be normalizing this idea?

00:22:22.740 Let me present a scenario to you.

00:22:24.240 So I know you said that this deal may not stay together up until 2025.

00:22:28.400 Let's say it more or less does and things move along

00:22:31.220 and he manages to keep Jagmeet Singh on board.

00:22:32.940 We get up to the election and right now we have,

00:22:35.060 I guess you can call it a coalition of the winners

00:22:36.820 and that the liberal government did win the most seats in the House of Commons.

00:22:39.260 We get up to 2025 and then there's an election.

00:22:41.740 And as we know, in the past two elections,

00:22:43.620 the conservatives won the popular vote under Andrew Scheer first,

00:22:46.960 under Erno Toole second.

00:22:49.040 And then we get into the 2025 election

00:22:51.080 and the conservatives win the popular vote again.

00:22:52.880 But the seat distribution is such that they have the most seats

00:22:55.340 in the House of Commons.

00:22:56.940 But the liberals and NDP still have a lot of seats combined.

00:23:00.860 And they go, you know what?

00:23:01.800 We're actually kind of liking this arrangement we have.

00:23:04.200 So, you know, we already did this sort of coalition thing

00:23:06.760 for the past few years.

00:23:08.260 Why don't we just sort of kind of keep doing a coalition kind of thing?

00:23:11.400 Is that possible?

00:23:14.460 Not only is it possible,

00:23:15.700 I think that we've already had that for seven years effectively.

00:23:21.000 It just hasn't been formalized.

00:23:22.560 So the liberals have effectively been governing

00:23:25.840 with the support of the NDP,

00:23:27.500 very occasionally the bloc,

00:23:28.960 but mostly with the support of the NDP,

00:23:31.020 for seven years.

00:23:33.200 And I've seen somebody liken this on Twitter to

00:23:38.300 two people have been living together for seven years

00:23:40.820 and finally decided to actually get married.

00:23:43.100 They're just formalizing what's been the fact for seven years.

00:23:48.420 I'm going to steal that, by the way, for another column.

00:23:50.500 That's a good analogy.

00:23:51.220 But so in that case,

00:23:54.380 I think that the liberals and the NDP

00:23:58.060 both learned their lesson in 2006 and 2008,

00:24:02.260 where they let the Conservative Party

00:24:05.300 under Stephen Harper govern

00:24:06.640 for about five years as a minority.

00:24:09.860 I don't think that the liberals or the NDP

00:24:11.920 will ever let that happen again.

00:24:13.720 Wow.

00:24:13.840 I think if Harper government had won a minority in 2015 election,

00:24:21.640 they'd come back five seats shy of a majority.

00:24:24.660 They would not have been allowed to govern.

00:24:26.620 I think that the NDP and the liberals would have joined together

00:24:29.220 to vote no confidence on the throne speech

00:24:32.300 at the first opportunity,

00:24:33.700 and then gone to the governor general

00:24:35.840 and proposed something like what is happening now,

00:24:39.020 either a formal coalition government

00:24:40.380 or an informal coalition like this.

00:24:44.120 And so they didn't have to in the end,

00:24:46.920 and the liberals had a majority.

00:24:49.360 But since then,

00:24:49.920 the liberals have governed effectively with the support of the NDP.

00:24:52.000 And I think they're quite happy doing that for now.

00:24:54.780 And I think they'll be happy to do that

00:24:56.240 until it starts hurting them politically.

00:24:59.100 And it will start hurting them politically

00:25:00.440 if they find their brand too diluted

00:25:02.340 and too many Canadians who,

00:25:06.720 as always happens at some point in a democracy,

00:25:10.180 decide it's time to, quote, 0.85

00:25:12.120 throw the bums out. 1.00

00:25:13.860 And that will happen eventually. 0.89

00:25:16.840 I think this forestalls that.

00:25:18.520 But in a democracy at the end of the day,

00:25:20.840 the government can't govern forever.

00:25:25.000 And I think there are dangers to this

00:25:28.660 for the liberal brand as well

00:25:30.480 that will make that more likely

00:25:32.140 probably in the next three to five years.

00:25:35.440 Wow.

00:25:35.920 Howard, I want to get your thoughts

00:25:37.080 on the degree to which Justin Trudeau

00:25:39.000 has done other procedural things

00:25:42.200 a little differently

00:25:43.900 and that we haven't always known

00:25:45.600 how to make of them initially.

00:25:47.640 I remember when Justin Trudeau

00:25:48.980 banished liberal senators

00:25:50.660 from the Liberal Party,

00:25:51.780 he just sort of dissolved

00:25:53.000 the Liberal Senate caucus

00:25:54.620 that was prior to him becoming prime minister.

00:25:56.320 And we were told it was this sort of brilliant thing

00:25:58.100 and all these arguments.

00:25:58.820 I don't know.

00:25:59.660 There's something a little strange about that.

00:26:00.860 That was kind of him banishing the old guard.

00:26:03.400 We've had some other things

00:26:04.480 since he's become prime minister.

00:26:05.820 He violated the Shawcross rule

00:26:08.480 when it came to the SNC-Lavalin issue,

00:26:10.520 getting involved in that

00:26:11.340 deferred prosecution agreement.

00:26:13.220 We've had invoking the Emergencies Act,

00:26:15.220 which Canadian Civil Liberties Association

00:26:16.660 and others have said,

00:26:17.960 well, hold on, this is unlawful.

00:26:20.060 We have this happening now.

00:26:22.540 They're all, I guess you could argue

00:26:24.180 they're minor things one by one.

00:26:26.940 Taken together,

00:26:28.460 I feel like he's really,

00:26:30.460 you know what they all say,

00:26:31.820 doing politics differently.

00:26:33.820 And I feel like all of these

00:26:35.140 kind of fall slightly

00:26:36.660 into the category of democratic backsliding.

00:26:39.320 I don't feel like these things

00:26:40.540 make us more free.

00:26:41.920 I think they make us

00:26:42.920 ever so slightly less free.

00:26:46.740 Funny, when people say

00:26:47.920 doing politics differently,

00:26:49.240 they usually mean it's a possible thing.

00:26:52.680 I think you have to take those one by one

00:26:54.980 and then maybe look at an overall pattern.

00:26:57.880 I mean, I think you're right.

00:26:59.420 Expelling the liberal senators

00:27:01.620 was very much a signal

00:27:03.260 that this is Justin Trudeau's party.

00:27:05.600 This is not the liberal party, period.

00:27:09.580 This is the Trudeau party.

00:27:10.840 And the banishing of the old guard

00:27:12.700 was a banishing of people

00:27:14.540 who thought that they were liberal senators.

00:27:17.980 And yeah,

00:27:20.600 and I think that's part of

00:27:21.620 their remaking the party in his image.

00:27:24.160 Now, the Shawcross convention,

00:27:26.380 the putting pressure on Jody Wilson-Raybould

00:27:28.240 to offer effectively a criminal plea deal

00:27:31.780 to SNC-Lavalin,

00:27:33.620 I'd say that that was a bit

00:27:35.580 of the old liberal party showing it,

00:27:36.920 the old cronyism that got them

00:27:38.480 into trouble in the past.

00:27:40.840 The fact that they're beholden

00:27:44.020 to large corporate interests,

00:27:46.120 particularly in Montreal.

00:27:47.920 I think that's the old liberal party.

00:27:50.560 And then the Emergencies Act,

00:27:52.160 well, in that sense,

00:27:53.840 it was a diet version

00:27:56.600 of the War Measures Act

00:27:57.800 that his father enacted.

00:27:59.220 And so you can see that

00:28:00.060 as being him following

00:28:02.720 the footsteps of his father.

00:28:03.800 So I think individually,

00:28:06.980 it's a pattern of events,

00:28:10.300 each of which on its own

00:28:12.960 eats away at

00:28:15.760 the liberal democratic norms

00:28:20.100 of our parliamentary system,

00:28:22.180 but none of which is so extreme

00:28:25.360 that it on its own

00:28:27.420 necessarily threatens

00:28:28.960 to break that system.

00:28:31.400 I think that this is the way

00:28:33.600 that Trudeau has made the party

00:28:35.440 in his image,

00:28:36.340 both by making him

00:28:37.400 the centerpiece

00:28:38.240 of all of his elections,

00:28:40.640 of his government,

00:28:42.020 of our foreign policy.

00:28:42.960 it's a brand Trudeau party.

00:28:46.060 I think that

00:28:47.040 not only

00:28:48.360 have his actions

00:28:51.260 undermined our democratic

00:28:52.920 and parliamentary norms,

00:28:54.240 I think that

00:28:55.640 presidentialization

00:28:58.020 or almost regalization

00:28:59.260 of the liberal party itself

00:29:00.880 is actually also eating away

00:29:04.740 and undermining

00:29:05.420 the norms of the liberal party.

00:29:07.620 And I think there are a lot

00:29:08.360 of disaffected liberals,

00:29:09.700 old,

00:29:09.960 probably most liberals

00:29:12.700 over 50,

00:29:13.860 who remember the old liberal party

00:29:15.600 as the great liberal brand

00:29:17.080 who wonder

00:29:18.140 what's going to happen

00:29:18.960 when Trudeau's gone.

00:29:19.760 Does that liberal brand

00:29:20.580 still exist

00:29:21.200 or has he so made it

00:29:22.720 his own party

00:29:23.220 that when he goes,

00:29:25.320 the party is effectively

00:29:26.980 left without a brand?

00:29:29.720 Well, let me ask you,

00:29:30.260 there's one complaint

00:29:31.080 that was regularly made

00:29:32.240 against the Stephen Harper government

00:29:33.940 that there was

00:29:34.800 a centralization of power

00:29:36.440 under the PMO

00:29:37.540 and there are also things

00:29:38.620 like omnibus bills,

00:29:39.820 which were getting

00:29:40.480 larger and larger

00:29:41.500 that were also

00:29:43.060 sort of pushing things

00:29:44.280 away from legislators

00:29:45.360 and more towards the PMO

00:29:47.380 and that now,

00:29:48.340 not that the same people

00:29:49.040 who had made that accusation

00:29:49.980 against Stephen Harper

00:29:50.540 would acknowledge this now,

00:29:51.520 but then I would say

00:29:52.340 that that stuff

00:29:52.940 is just on steroids now

00:29:54.340 with the Trudeau PMO.

00:29:56.120 What would you say

00:29:57.020 about all of that?

00:29:59.240 Yes.

00:29:59.640 Well, there's certainly

00:30:00.300 been a centralizing tendency

00:30:01.680 in Canadian government

00:30:02.800 that the great

00:30:04.900 political scientist

00:30:06.040 Donald Savoy in Canada

00:30:07.020 identifies starting

00:30:08.480 with the first Trudeau government

00:30:10.440 in the 1960s.

00:30:12.420 He's been,

00:30:13.120 Donald Savoy's been

00:30:13.800 a great critic

00:30:14.420 of what he calls

00:30:15.280 governing from the center,

00:30:16.580 this irrigation of power

00:30:19.020 into the prime minister's office.

00:30:21.260 I think that did happen

00:30:24.400 in the Stephen Harper government.

00:30:26.260 It's happened even more

00:30:27.180 in the Trudeau government,

00:30:27.940 I think far more

00:30:28.640 in the Trudeau government.

00:30:30.020 I think it's also happened

00:30:30.920 though in other

00:30:31.440 Westminster systems

00:30:32.300 if you look around the world.

00:30:33.440 I think it's certainly happened 0.98

00:30:34.300 in the same accusations

00:30:36.020 that leveled against

00:30:36.660 number 10 Downing Street,

00:30:37.780 particularly starting

00:30:38.280 with Tony Blair's government.

00:30:40.420 And I think part of that

00:30:41.380 is just a reaction

00:30:41.980 to the new media environment,

00:30:44.560 particularly a post-social

00:30:45.960 media environment

00:30:46.520 where government

00:30:47.700 has to be so sensitive

00:30:50.200 to everything that happens

00:30:51.180 at every moment

00:30:52.640 that it has to coordinate

00:30:53.600 its actions to a degree

00:30:54.880 that wasn't necessary

00:30:57.300 30, 40, 50, 100 years ago,

00:31:00.420 where you could have ministers

00:31:02.520 freelancing on policy

00:31:03.760 and ministers who are

00:31:04.760 what they call

00:31:05.500 cabinet government

00:31:06.340 reach minister

00:31:07.080 is his or her own

00:31:09.340 little fiefdom

00:31:11.020 that controls everything

00:31:12.280 that happens to the ministry

00:31:13.000 and doesn't have to talk

00:31:13.880 to their colleagues

00:31:14.880 except at cabinet meetings

00:31:15.960 and doesn't have to ever speak

00:31:17.820 to the staffers

00:31:19.700 and the PMO.

00:31:21.220 That's a relic

00:31:22.020 of a different era

00:31:22.640 at a time where

00:31:23.740 any inconsistency

00:31:27.620 in policy,

00:31:28.420 any lack of coordination

00:31:29.400 is magnified

00:31:31.640 by our 24-7,

00:31:34.580 not just 24-7,

00:31:35.700 second-by-second

00:31:36.380 media environment.

00:31:38.100 You need more coordination

00:31:39.880 and it's unfortunately

00:31:40.820 driven by

00:31:41.500 those external circumstances.

00:31:44.900 I don't know

00:31:46.480 that it makes

00:31:46.940 for worse government,

00:31:47.860 but it certainly makes

00:31:48.380 for different government.

00:31:49.620 It makes, I think,

00:31:50.240 for a less ambitious

00:31:51.240 government overall

00:31:52.080 and I think

00:31:53.500 that's a problem.

00:31:55.200 But, yeah,

00:31:56.500 it's certainly

00:31:57.380 something that's real.

00:31:58.440 It's happened.

00:31:59.020 It happened

00:31:59.480 under the Harper government

00:32:01.000 and it's,

00:32:02.780 yeah,

00:32:02.980 I think

00:32:03.540 no PMO in Canadian history

00:32:05.300 has come close

00:32:06.120 to the degree

00:32:06.700 of a stranglehold

00:32:07.940 that the Trudeau government,

00:32:10.080 particularly the early

00:32:10.620 Trudeau government

00:32:11.240 with Jerry Butts

00:32:12.500 and Katie Telford

00:32:13.260 effectively being

00:32:15.200 surrogate prime ministers.

00:32:17.120 We've never seen

00:32:18.020 this level

00:32:18.500 of control before.

00:32:20.460 And I think this

00:32:21.320 this new agreement

00:32:24.320 with the NDP

00:32:24.840 will be interesting

00:32:25.680 in the way it tests that.

00:32:28.520 I think trying

00:32:29.460 to bring the NDP

00:32:30.240 partly into the fold

00:32:31.440 may have interesting

00:32:33.040 consequences for that.

00:32:33.940 I don't know

00:32:34.420 how that will play out,

00:32:35.840 but

00:32:36.080 but it

00:32:38.440 it could

00:32:39.980 it could throw

00:32:41.160 a wrench

00:32:42.020 into the works there.

00:32:43.500 What do you think

00:32:44.420 are the ramifications

00:32:45.180 of this

00:32:45.680 for the conservatives?

00:32:47.080 Whoever wins

00:32:47.660 the conservative leadership

00:32:48.600 race later on this year

00:32:49.840 was maybe hoping,

00:32:51.180 OK, we're in a minority

00:32:51.900 government situation.

00:32:53.300 It would be great

00:32:53.760 to do what they do

00:32:54.320 in the U.S.

00:32:54.860 and sort of have

00:32:55.300 the primaries roll

00:32:56.360 into the general.

00:32:57.260 I get all that momentum

00:32:58.020 and here I am now.

00:32:58.920 I'm prime minister of Canada.

00:33:00.660 Not going to be that easy.

00:33:02.060 Won't happen that way.

00:33:03.020 You got to sit

00:33:03.600 in

00:33:04.260 in store and away

00:33:06.060 for several years now

00:33:07.040 in 2025,

00:33:08.000 sort of biding your time

00:33:09.460 doing whatever

00:33:10.480 you're going to do

00:33:10.940 and then

00:33:11.340 you'll eventually

00:33:12.180 have an election

00:33:12.780 sometime later on

00:33:13.640 down the road.

00:33:14.380 Is this

00:33:15.000 a positive thing

00:33:16.460 in terms of

00:33:17.240 the conservative caucus

00:33:18.300 being able to

00:33:19.400 have time to retool,

00:33:21.760 rebuild,

00:33:22.460 go in a different direction

00:33:23.580 or is it

00:33:24.180 is it just a negative thing

00:33:25.420 in terms of the fact

00:33:26.100 they're left

00:33:26.460 treading water for a while?

00:33:29.980 We'll see.

00:33:30.940 Honestly,

00:33:31.660 you probably follow this

00:33:33.620 more closely day to day

00:33:34.680 than I do, Anthony.

00:33:36.120 My backseat

00:33:37.920 thoughts

00:33:39.080 for what they're worth

00:33:39.940 are that

00:33:40.580 in the medium term

00:33:42.500 this will be good

00:33:43.700 for the conservative party.

00:33:44.640 I think that

00:33:45.960 this Frankenstein's monster

00:33:47.320 that I spoke of earlier

00:33:48.120 where you have

00:33:48.440 this liberal body

00:33:49.160 with an NDP brain

00:33:50.120 now

00:33:50.420 I think that's

00:33:52.500 a good

00:33:54.240 large

00:33:55.020 target

00:33:56.080 for the conservative party.

00:33:57.540 You can accuse

00:33:58.180 the liberals

00:33:58.600 of being 0.81

00:33:59.040 of all the sins

00:34:00.240 of the NDP

00:34:00.680 and you can

00:34:01.120 accuse the NDP

00:34:02.260 of having all the sins

00:34:03.040 of the liberal party.

00:34:05.940 I think it's going

00:34:07.040 to be

00:34:07.480 a difficult

00:34:08.560 a more difficult

00:34:09.680 agreement

00:34:11.040 to implement

00:34:11.700 than either party

00:34:12.540 thinks

00:34:12.880 right now.

00:34:14.540 The happiest time

00:34:15.480 for a lot of contracts

00:34:16.380 and agreements

00:34:16.820 is the moment

00:34:17.400 they're signed

00:34:17.880 and they often

00:34:18.780 fall apart

00:34:19.240 quite quickly

00:34:19.660 afterwards

00:34:20.100 particularly in politics.

00:34:21.700 We saw this

00:34:22.300 with the

00:34:22.740 planned coalition

00:34:24.100 back in 2008

00:34:25.100 where everybody

00:34:26.340 thought it was

00:34:26.640 a great idea

00:34:27.140 on the day

00:34:27.640 and a couple

00:34:28.500 months later

00:34:29.200 Stéphane Dion

00:34:29.860 was out as

00:34:30.380 liberal leader

00:34:30.840 and Harper

00:34:32.340 managed to pass

00:34:32.980 a budget

00:34:33.580 with the support

00:34:34.160 of Michael Ignatiev's

00:34:36.200 interim leadership.

00:34:36.920 I could see

00:34:39.720 this lasting

00:34:41.500 a little while

00:34:43.100 and falling apart

00:34:43.640 and I could see

00:34:44.020 it falling apart

00:34:44.480 quite quickly.

00:34:45.560 I don't think

00:34:46.420 that the NDP

00:34:47.080 and the liberals

00:34:47.600 would be that

00:34:48.200 as happy

00:34:49.200 with each other

00:34:49.820 in 2025

00:34:50.860 if it lasts

00:34:51.600 that long

00:34:52.460 as they are today

00:34:53.520 and I think

00:34:54.620 that will

00:34:55.200 create

00:34:56.560 an internal

00:34:57.700 dynamic

00:34:58.180 that will

00:34:58.520 distract them

00:34:59.100 from governing

00:34:59.620 and will weaken

00:35:00.280 the government

00:35:00.720 and improve

00:35:02.420 the chances

00:35:02.780 of the conservatives

00:35:03.440 but we still

00:35:06.860 don't know

00:35:07.060 who the conservative

00:35:07.580 leader is going

00:35:08.020 to be.

00:35:08.620 We don't know

00:35:09.120 if Trudeau is going

00:35:09.820 to lead the liberals

00:35:10.660 into the next election.

00:35:11.780 I think those two

00:35:12.520 things are more

00:35:13.020 important than

00:35:13.920 this agreement

00:35:14.480 for the next election

00:35:15.920 and until we know

00:35:17.840 that I don't think

00:35:18.480 we can really say

00:35:19.080 anything too definitive.

00:35:21.040 Howard,

00:35:21.200 let me ask you

00:35:22.160 in terms of

00:35:23.460 what this agreement

00:35:24.500 might create

00:35:25.400 in terms of

00:35:27.160 public appetite

00:35:28.140 for the direction

00:35:29.780 the conservative

00:35:30.340 party should go

00:35:31.180 by which I mean

00:35:31.840 there are some

00:35:32.620 who have said

00:35:33.040 well you've got

00:35:33.420 this coalition

00:35:34.080 government thing

00:35:34.780 happening

00:35:35.100 liberal NDP

00:35:35.720 it clearly suggests

00:35:37.100 that Canadians

00:35:38.300 are going to be

00:35:38.720 normalized into

00:35:39.380 this sort of thing

00:35:40.020 and they're going

00:35:40.340 to need a more

00:35:40.860 red Tory type person

00:35:42.040 Jean Charest

00:35:42.580 is going to have

00:35:43.100 to be leader

00:35:43.620 because there's

00:35:44.100 no way

00:35:44.520 after what they've

00:35:45.780 had with the

00:35:46.320 Trudeau-Sing coalition

00:35:47.620 they're going to

00:35:48.000 go in a different

00:35:48.460 direction

00:35:48.880 or one can say

00:35:49.880 the other thing

00:35:50.420 which is

00:35:50.780 people are going

00:35:52.000 to want something

00:35:52.500 that differentiates

00:35:53.640 itself from

00:35:54.400 the previous

00:35:54.840 offering

00:35:55.200 so you're going

00:35:55.560 to want someone

00:35:56.080 who's a more

00:35:56.520 true blue

00:35:57.220 conservative

00:35:57.800 I mean I think

00:35:58.560 the fact that

00:35:59.100 we went from

00:35:59.580 Stephen Harper

00:36:00.100 majority

00:36:00.620 to Justin Trudeau

00:36:01.760 majority

00:36:02.260 and you know

00:36:03.700 Stephen Harper

00:36:04.740 is definitely

00:36:05.440 not described

00:36:06.160 as a sort of

00:36:06.860 red Tory figure

00:36:07.720 and Justin Trudeau

00:36:08.420 is not described

00:36:09.180 as a right-leaning

00:36:09.980 liberal

00:36:10.720 that was quite

00:36:11.560 a jump there

00:36:12.900 to go from

00:36:13.340 one to the other

00:36:14.060 could we see

00:36:15.120 the appetite

00:36:15.500 for the same

00:36:16.040 thing in 2025

00:36:17.140 I think absolutely

00:36:19.860 we could

00:36:20.280 I think when

00:36:22.220 people start

00:36:22.700 talking about

00:36:23.560 spatial metaphors

00:36:25.660 in politics

00:36:26.340 they get to

00:36:27.600 a level deeper

00:36:28.280 than how

00:36:30.180 most politics

00:36:30.840 works

00:36:31.240 this idea

00:36:32.040 that if

00:36:32.780 this moves

00:36:33.780 the liberals

00:36:34.300 to the left

00:36:35.020 it will open

00:36:35.580 up space

00:36:36.340 in the center

00:36:36.980 for somebody

00:36:37.800 to fill

00:36:38.580 or for the

00:36:39.220 conservatives

00:36:39.600 to move

00:36:40.220 to the center

00:36:40.800 I don't think

00:36:42.120 I look

00:36:42.540 I'm not a

00:36:42.960 campaigner

00:36:43.580 I'm not a

00:36:44.500 political

00:36:45.040 strategist

00:36:46.980 in that sense

00:36:47.500 I don't think

00:36:48.420 that's how

00:36:48.800 politics works

00:36:49.640 when it comes

00:36:50.420 to electoral

00:36:50.860 politics

00:36:51.320 I think people

00:36:52.120 like distinctions

00:36:53.600 and differentiation

00:36:54.440 more than they

00:36:55.720 think about

00:36:56.120 things like

00:36:56.580 well who's

00:36:57.040 moving to

00:36:57.840 fill space

00:36:58.420 that's being

00:36:58.720 vacated by

00:36:59.260 another party

00:36:59.820 so I do

00:37:01.820 think that

00:37:02.200 conservatives

00:37:02.620 have an

00:37:03.020 opportunity

00:37:03.440 to really

00:37:04.220 distinguish

00:37:05.320 themselves

00:37:05.840 particularly

00:37:06.740 when you

00:37:07.080 think about

00:37:07.400 the spending

00:37:07.880 that this

00:37:08.400 is going

00:37:09.300 to require

00:37:09.780 put aside

00:37:11.620 the popularity

00:37:12.100 of the policies

00:37:12.780 and I

00:37:13.320 actually think

00:37:13.780 it's crazy

00:37:14.300 that we

00:37:14.620 don't cover

00:37:15.080 dental care

00:37:15.900 and prescription

00:37:16.640 drugs in Canada

00:37:17.380 under our

00:37:17.760 healthcare system

00:37:18.440 that's a

00:37:20.500 discussion

00:37:20.800 for another

00:37:21.220 time

00:37:21.520 I think

00:37:22.300 the provincial

00:37:23.980 government

00:37:24.320 should have

00:37:24.640 done this

00:37:24.960 a while ago

00:37:25.540 put that

00:37:26.460 to the side

00:37:27.040 the spending

00:37:28.480 when then

00:37:30.080 you add in

00:37:30.740 our newfound

00:37:32.000 defense

00:37:32.500 commitments

00:37:33.120 which Trudeau

00:37:34.120 has now gone

00:37:34.480 to Europe

00:37:34.820 and said

00:37:35.120 that we're

00:37:35.360 going to

00:37:35.660 up our

00:37:36.460 defense

00:37:36.780 spending

00:37:37.140 where's

00:37:38.040 the money

00:37:38.360 coming from

00:37:38.920 at a time

00:37:39.620 when inflation

00:37:40.140 is threatening

00:37:40.820 to hit

00:37:41.120 double digits

00:37:41.780 it's absolutely

00:37:44.080 crazy

00:37:44.380 and I think 1.00

00:37:44.740 a conservative

00:37:45.180 party that

00:37:45.720 can present

00:37:46.340 itself on

00:37:47.080 its historical

00:37:48.240 strength of

00:37:50.020 prudent fiscal

00:37:51.260 management

00:37:51.720 discipline

00:37:52.440 being serious

00:37:53.820 about things

00:37:54.620 like inflation

00:37:55.200 and spending

00:37:55.720 I think that

00:37:56.640 differentiation

00:37:57.080 works massively

00:37:58.560 in the

00:37:59.040 conservatives

00:37:59.340 favor going

00:38:00.320 forward

00:38:00.680 and I think

00:38:01.520 the conservative

00:38:01.900 party would do

00:38:02.420 well to

00:38:02.800 whoever becomes

00:38:04.260 the leader

00:38:04.600 they would

00:38:05.940 do well

00:38:06.460 to emphasize

00:38:08.640 the distinctions

00:38:09.520 with this

00:38:10.560 coalition

00:38:10.960 rather than

00:38:11.880 trying to

00:38:12.220 sort of

00:38:12.820 be clever

00:38:13.360 and moving

00:38:13.820 and fill

00:38:14.260 some

00:38:14.620 mushy

00:38:15.560 center

00:38:15.900 Howard

00:38:17.340 before we

00:38:17.740 go I want

00:38:18.160 to get your

00:38:18.580 thoughts on

00:38:19.220 the long-term

00:38:20.180 ramifications

00:38:21.060 for Canadian

00:38:22.160 democracy

00:38:22.620 and where

00:38:23.400 you think

00:38:24.020 we're headed

00:38:25.140 because it

00:38:26.080 does seem

00:38:26.460 like we

00:38:26.760 can't put

00:38:27.080 the genie

00:38:27.440 back in

00:38:27.800 the bottle

00:38:28.120 when it

00:38:28.500 comes to

00:38:28.920 things like

00:38:29.440 invoking

00:38:29.920 the

00:38:30.100 emergencies

00:38:30.520 act

00:38:30.940 at a

00:38:31.160 time

00:38:31.400 when

00:38:31.660 well maybe

00:38:32.540 it wasn't

00:38:33.240 actually

00:38:33.580 warranted

00:38:34.180 creating

00:38:34.840 this sort

00:38:35.220 of

00:38:35.420 quasi

00:38:35.920 coalition

00:38:36.680 non-coalition

00:38:37.580 and you

00:38:38.500 said the

00:38:38.980 liberals

00:38:39.220 are

00:38:39.460 undermining

00:38:40.300 our

00:38:40.540 democratic

00:38:41.280 and

00:38:41.520 parliamentary

00:38:41.880 norms

00:38:42.380 they've

00:38:42.620 had a few

00:38:43.060 examples

00:38:43.780 of doing

00:38:44.260 that

00:38:44.580 we were

00:38:45.200 originally

00:38:45.580 thinking

00:38:46.020 that we

00:38:46.760 would have

00:38:47.100 a sort

00:38:47.420 of

00:38:48.260 very calm

00:38:49.420 democratic

00:38:49.960 process

00:38:50.440 I always

00:38:50.780 think back

00:38:51.160 to that

00:38:51.440 Francis

00:38:51.880 Fukuyama

00:38:52.500 end of

00:38:52.920 history

00:38:53.300 thesis

00:38:53.920 but now

00:38:54.340 we see

00:38:54.620 no things

00:38:55.000 are changing

00:38:55.460 you mentioned

00:38:55.860 how social

00:38:56.380 media

00:38:56.660 24-hour

00:38:57.160 news

00:38:57.400 cycle

00:38:57.760 makes

00:38:58.760 governments

00:38:59.200 react

00:38:59.620 faster

00:39:00.200 sometimes

00:39:00.760 more hastily

00:39:01.620 we've

00:39:02.100 got rules

00:39:02.680 being slightly

00:39:03.340 bent here

00:39:03.920 and there

00:39:04.240 what's

00:39:05.100 going on

00:39:05.700 what's

00:39:06.160 the future

00:39:06.540 going to

00:39:06.820 bring

00:39:07.080 wrap it

00:39:09.520 all up

00:39:09.800 in a bow

00:39:10.140 for us

00:39:10.700 bring out

00:39:12.000 the crystal

00:39:12.360 ball

00:39:12.680 okay

00:39:13.520 I think

00:39:16.180 in a

00:39:16.620 democratic

00:39:17.440 system

00:39:17.940 and in

00:39:18.280 our

00:39:18.420 parliamentary

00:39:18.800 system

00:39:19.340 at the

00:39:20.260 end of

00:39:20.580 the day

00:39:20.960 the people

00:39:21.980 do get

00:39:22.460 to decide

00:39:22.980 and that

00:39:23.280 is the

00:39:23.540 constant

00:39:23.940 and I

00:39:24.860 think

00:39:25.160 that

00:39:25.680 for a

00:39:26.280 long time

00:39:26.720 we've been

00:39:27.060 very

00:39:27.320 complacent

00:39:27.880 as a

00:39:28.320 country

00:39:28.640 and our

00:39:29.120 voters

00:39:29.380 have been

00:39:29.600 complacent

00:39:30.040 we get

00:39:30.700 really worked

00:39:31.660 up about

00:39:32.080 issues

00:39:32.720 I'm not

00:39:33.140 saying that

00:39:33.640 some of

00:39:33.900 the fights

00:39:34.700 we've had

00:39:35.360 politically

00:39:35.660 in the

00:39:35.920 last

00:39:36.180 10

00:39:36.760 20

00:39:37.060 or even

00:39:37.360 30

00:39:37.600 years

00:39:37.900 haven't

00:39:38.200 been

00:39:38.320 important

00:39:38.800 they are

00:39:40.040 they're

00:39:40.440 very

00:39:40.620 important

00:39:40.960 but

00:39:41.940 they're

00:39:42.100 not

00:39:42.280 they haven't

00:39:42.780 been

00:39:42.920 existential

00:39:43.460 and

00:39:44.740 not even

00:39:47.220 existential

00:39:47.640 in the

00:39:47.960 sense of

00:39:48.260 will

00:39:48.440 Canada

00:39:48.720 continue

00:39:49.120 to

00:39:49.340 exist

00:39:49.720 we

00:39:50.500 actually

00:39:50.660 had

00:39:50.820 that

00:39:50.960 in

00:39:51.060 1995

00:39:51.460 I guess

00:39:51.960 but

00:39:52.900 in the

00:39:53.160 sense

00:39:53.380 of

00:39:53.620 do

00:39:54.460 people

00:39:54.740 really

00:39:55.040 feel

00:39:55.280 that

00:39:55.420 their

00:39:55.580 lives

00:39:55.960 are

00:39:56.160 changing

00:39:56.600 in a

00:39:57.220 bad

00:39:57.480 way

00:39:57.800 seriously

00:39:58.380 and

00:39:58.740 are

00:39:58.880 threatened

00:39:59.180 we've

00:39:59.640 had

00:39:59.740 that

00:39:59.860 in parts

00:40:00.220 of

00:40:00.340 the

00:40:00.440 country

00:40:00.840 the

00:40:01.700 oil and

00:40:01.920 gas

00:40:02.260 recession

00:40:04.740 in

00:40:05.240 Alberta

00:40:05.980 starting

00:40:06.380 in

00:40:06.520 about

00:40:06.660 2014

00:40:07.180 really

00:40:08.100 changed

00:40:08.540 people's

00:40:08.920 lives

00:40:09.160 in

00:40:09.320 a

00:40:09.420 deep

00:40:09.620 way

00:40:09.880 but

00:40:11.140 in

00:40:11.320 most

00:40:11.560 of

00:40:11.680 the

00:40:11.800 country

00:40:12.180 things

00:40:13.060 have

00:40:13.180 been

00:40:13.440 getting

00:40:14.460 maybe

00:40:15.020 a little

00:40:15.340 bit

00:40:15.520 worse

00:40:15.800 slowly

00:40:16.340 a little

00:40:17.060 bit

00:40:17.220 better

00:40:17.400 in

00:40:17.520 other

00:40:17.680 ways

00:40:18.020 and

00:40:18.700 people

00:40:19.080 haven't

00:40:19.360 really

00:40:19.540 felt

00:40:19.940 that

00:40:20.400 a

00:40:22.680 crisis

00:40:24.260 and

00:40:25.120 I think

00:40:25.440 now

00:40:25.880 starting

00:40:26.400 probably

00:40:26.900 the last

00:40:28.880 two

00:40:29.180 years

00:40:29.520 with

00:40:29.720 COVID

00:40:30.020 I think

00:40:31.000 people

00:40:31.240 now

00:40:31.480 look

00:40:31.700 out

00:40:31.860 and

00:40:31.980 they

00:40:32.100 see

00:40:32.260 crises

00:40:32.680 everywhere

00:40:33.200 they

00:40:34.000 see

00:40:34.360 a

00:40:35.260 once in

00:40:35.580 a

00:40:35.660 century

00:40:35.860 pandemic

00:40:36.360 they

00:40:36.940 see

00:40:37.240 inflation

00:40:37.900 potentially

00:40:38.360 returning

00:40:38.760 to

00:40:38.960 early

00:40:39.440 1980s

00:40:40.180 levels

00:40:40.480 where

00:40:40.940 they

00:40:41.080 won't

00:40:41.220 be able

00:40:41.400 to afford

00:40:41.780 their

00:40:42.360 mortgage

00:40:42.640 payments

00:40:43.060 you see

00:40:43.860 young people

00:40:44.360 that look

00:40:44.660 out and

00:40:44.980 say

00:40:45.200 they won't

00:40:46.080 be able

00:40:46.260 to afford

00:40:46.620 a job

00:40:47.060 that will

00:40:47.600 allow them

00:40:47.940 to actually

00:40:48.380 ever own

00:40:49.440 a house

00:40:50.260 even own an

00:40:51.420 apartment or a condo

00:40:52.560 in a city like

00:40:53.160 Vancouver or Toronto

00:40:53.960 and then

00:40:55.780 and then you

00:40:56.000 look out

00:40:56.360 at world

00:40:57.020 affairs

00:40:57.440 and you

00:40:57.820 see

00:40:58.140 the rise

00:40:59.740 of Chinese

00:41:00.420 power

00:41:00.780 and under

00:41:01.480 President Xi

00:41:02.420 and PRC

00:41:03.160 this sinister

00:41:05.100 surveillance

00:41:05.620 state

00:41:06.120 some of which

00:41:06.900 aspects

00:41:07.300 are slowly

00:41:08.580 creeping into

00:41:09.140 our own

00:41:09.460 society

00:41:09.860 and then

00:41:11.440 they look

00:41:11.860 at

00:41:12.260 Europe

00:41:13.140 which has

00:41:14.360 sort of

00:41:14.860 been the

00:41:15.140 fun

00:41:15.380 holiday

00:41:16.880 destination

00:41:17.420 for the

00:41:17.800 last 50

00:41:18.240 years

00:41:18.500 and the

00:41:19.500 potential

00:41:20.020 threat of

00:41:20.880 nuclear war

00:41:21.520 on its

00:41:21.940 border

00:41:22.200 when things

00:41:23.920 get really

00:41:24.320 really really

00:41:24.840 bad

00:41:25.240 I think

00:41:26.040 it can

00:41:26.680 shake up

00:41:27.080 our politics

00:41:27.680 so

00:41:28.780 while

00:41:30.140 this

00:41:30.700 agreement

00:41:31.200 is

00:41:32.700 interesting

00:41:33.180 we'll see

00:41:33.540 how it

00:41:33.760 plays out

00:41:34.260 I think

00:41:34.860 far more

00:41:35.360 important

00:41:35.640 for the

00:41:35.960 next

00:41:36.220 election

00:41:36.640 and probably

00:41:37.120 the election

00:41:37.520 after that

00:41:38.080 will be

00:41:38.680 if people

00:41:39.320 really think

00:41:39.860 that their

00:41:40.340 livelihood

00:41:41.280 and their

00:41:41.700 way of

00:41:42.000 life

00:41:42.300 are

00:41:42.680 fundamentally

00:41:43.760 threatened

00:41:44.300 then I

00:41:45.420 think that

00:41:45.740 provides an

00:41:46.160 opportunity

00:41:46.520 for each

00:41:47.720 party to

00:41:48.240 present a

00:41:48.780 very clear

00:41:49.600 philosophical

00:41:50.600 platform

00:41:51.800 and make

00:41:54.200 the pitch

00:41:54.500 to Canadians

00:41:54.960 about how

00:41:55.460 what they

00:41:56.860 have to

00:41:57.180 offer

00:41:57.500 will make

00:41:58.320 their lives

00:41:58.920 more secure

00:41:59.780 more stable

00:42:00.880 more prosperous

00:42:02.000 more free

00:42:03.040 these are

00:42:04.420 the things

00:42:05.100 we've come

00:42:05.400 to take

00:42:05.620 for granted

00:42:06.060 in Canada

00:42:06.540 and suddenly

00:42:07.060 can't

00:42:07.780 and I

00:42:08.460 think that

00:42:08.780 that offers

00:42:09.380 the Conservative

00:42:09.940 Party

00:42:10.380 a real

00:42:11.260 opportunity

00:42:11.700 to go back

00:42:12.340 to first

00:42:13.020 principles

00:42:13.440 and remind

00:42:16.060 Canadians

00:42:16.580 that the

00:42:17.540 society that

00:42:18.100 we have

00:42:18.740 is not an

00:42:19.300 accident

00:42:19.640 it's based

00:42:20.500 on certain

00:42:21.200 philosophical

00:42:22.180 premises

00:42:22.660 you can

00:42:24.660 call them

00:42:25.320 conservatism

00:42:27.260 some people

00:42:27.900 call parts

00:42:28.580 of it

00:42:28.880 classical

00:42:29.380 liberalism

00:42:30.020 whatever

00:42:30.480 and one

00:42:31.960 of those

00:42:32.380 is that

00:42:32.900 our

00:42:33.720 institutions

00:42:34.300 like Parliament

00:42:34.880 function

00:42:35.420 as they

00:42:36.000 are meant

00:42:36.780 to function

00:42:37.200 and that

00:42:37.800 means that

00:42:38.120 the government

00:42:38.400 is held

00:42:38.700 accountable

00:42:39.100 day to

00:42:39.500 day

00:42:39.720 and that

00:42:40.400 brings us

00:42:40.740 back to

00:42:41.100 this point

00:42:41.620 that the

00:42:42.660 NDP

00:42:42.900 have

00:42:43.520 effectively

00:42:44.360 ceded

00:42:44.780 their

00:42:45.200 scrutiny

00:42:45.500 and accountability

00:42:46.040 role here

00:42:46.700 that's a

00:42:47.420 problem

00:42:47.620 for Parliament

00:42:48.300 it's a

00:42:48.860 problem

00:42:49.000 for our

00:42:49.260 country

00:42:49.580 but it's

00:42:50.240 a potential

00:42:50.760 opportunity

00:42:51.460 for the

00:42:51.900 Conservative

00:42:52.240 Party

00:42:52.580 to take

00:42:53.720 Parliament

00:42:54.100 seriously

00:42:54.540 to take

00:42:54.980 its

00:42:55.140 responsibility

00:42:55.680 and opposition

00:42:56.260 seriously

00:42:56.800 as the

00:42:57.280 NDP

00:42:57.480 is not

00:42:57.940 and to

00:42:59.120 present to

00:42:59.540 Canadians

00:42:59.940 a clear

00:43:01.220 vision

00:43:01.760 of a

00:43:03.460 Canada

00:43:03.760 that will

00:43:04.160 be an

00:43:04.580 island of

00:43:05.020 stability

00:43:05.420 in a

00:43:06.000 world of

00:43:06.480 chaos

00:43:08.180 and Stephen

00:43:10.900 Harper did 0.97

00:43:11.360 that very

00:43:11.740 successfully

00:43:12.220 during the

00:43:13.640 global financial

00:43:14.300 crisis

00:43:14.720 which frankly

00:43:16.100 looks like a

00:43:16.620 blip compared

00:43:17.140 to what we're

00:43:17.580 going through

00:43:17.920 now

00:43:18.200 and I

00:43:19.060 think

00:43:19.300 the

00:43:20.040 next

00:43:20.220 Conservative

00:43:20.540 leader

00:43:20.760 has an

00:43:21.080 opportunity

00:43:21.380 to do

00:43:21.980 that

00:43:22.280 again

00:43:22.800 for a

00:43:23.140 new

00:43:23.260 generation

00:43:23.600 of

00:43:23.780 Canadians

00:43:24.080 in 2015

00:43:24.760 or earlier

00:43:25.820 interesting

00:43:27.940 points and a

00:43:28.780 very interesting

00:43:29.480 conversation

00:43:30.160 Howard Anglin

00:43:30.760 thanks so much

00:43:31.580 for joining us

00:43:32.080 today

00:43:32.300 thank you

00:43:33.780 thank you very

00:43:33.920 much

00:43:34.120 Anthony

00:43:34.420 full comment

00:43:35.660 is a post

00:43:36.180 media podcast

00:43:36.960 I'm Anthony

00:43:37.760 Fury

00:43:38.060 this episode

00:43:39.040 was produced

00:43:39.540 by Andre

00:43:40.060 Pru with

00:43:40.820 theme music

00:43:41.320 by Bryce

00:43:41.800 Hall

00:43:42.040 Kevin Libin

00:43:43.000 is the

00:43:43.400 executive

00:43:43.760 producer

00:43:44.200 you can

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Full Comment - March 28, 2022

How the Liberal-NDP deal could damage democracy

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