Full Comment - March 28, 2022


How the Liberal-NDP deal could damage democracy


Episode Stats

Length

43 minutes

Words per Minute

169.31465

Word Count

7,442

Sentence Count

322

Misogynist Sentences

2

Hate Speech Sentences

2


Summary

In this episode, we talk to Howard Anglin, a post-doctorate researcher at Oxford University and former Chief of Staff to Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Principal Secretary to Alberta Premier Jason Kenney, about the possibility of a coalition between the Liberals and the NDP.


Transcript

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00:01:58.720 Hello, I'm Anthony Fury.
00:02:05.360 Thanks for joining us for the latest episode of Full Comet.
00:02:08.060 Please consider subscribing to the podcast if you haven't already.
00:02:11.300 Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and NDP leader Jagmeet Singh have brokered a deal to form a coalition
00:02:16.220 that guarantees the Liberals stay in power until at least 2025.
00:02:22.420 Oops, my bad. I misspoke.
00:02:23.840 They say you're not allowed to call it a coalition.
00:02:25.300 We've got to use its technical name, a supply and confidence agreement.
00:02:29.580 And we'll break down the details of that in a bit.
00:02:31.560 But whatever you call it, what does it really mean?
00:02:34.640 What are its implications?
00:02:36.320 Trudeau and Singh say it means all of your progressive dreams will now come true.
00:02:40.740 But the conservative opposition say it's a power grab that leads to backdoor socialism.
00:02:45.800 Our guest today says that what it could be is something even worse than a coalition and potentially even more damaging to our democracy.
00:02:54.620 Howard Anglin has reflected a lot on these sorts of issues over the years in his capacity as a postgraduate researcher at Oxford University,
00:03:01.780 a lawyer who has worked all around the world and most relevant to our discussion today as Deputy Chief of Staff to Prime Minister Stephen Harper
00:03:09.080 and Principal Secretary to Alberta Premier Jason Kenney.
00:03:12.980 Howard Anglin joins us now.
00:03:14.740 Howard, great to have you on the show.
00:03:15.900 Thanks for stopping by.
00:03:17.500 Thank you very much for having me.
00:03:18.580 You wrote an article about this situation in The Hub, and you mentioned in this article that this could be a scenario worse than a coalition.
00:03:28.180 What did you mean by that?
00:03:30.000 It's a good question.
00:03:31.800 And answering it, I think, takes us to the heart of how the parliamentary system works in Canada.
00:03:38.360 But obviously, we get our system from the Westminster system in the United Kingdom.
00:03:44.480 And the system in its current form goes back about 200 years.
00:03:48.580 And at its core is a principle called responsible government.
00:03:53.840 And responsible government is a very, a lot has been written about it.
00:03:59.640 It can get very complex when you get into the weeds.
00:04:02.060 But at its core, it is the principle that the Queen's ministers are not just responsible to the Queen, to the Crown,
00:04:11.780 but they're also responsible to the elected members of Parliament.
00:04:18.140 And we can get into how that works, both in theory and in practice.
00:04:22.500 And I think it's very, it's very important to get into that, to understand why, why I say that this could be worse.
00:04:31.220 But the simple answer is responsible government rests on the accountability of the government, the cabinet, the ministers,
00:04:41.940 the people who sit around the table with Justin Trudeau and Justin Trudeau himself every day, being accountable to Parliament.
00:04:49.320 And that accountability is enforced through the threat of non-confidence votes,
00:04:54.700 where Parliament at any point can vote to replace the government effectively.
00:04:58.740 The NDP, in this case, has said that it will not do that for three years.
00:05:05.780 Absolutely not.
00:05:07.440 It didn't list any exceptions.
00:05:09.720 It didn't say we won't do it if, unless there's a major scandal,
00:05:13.740 we won't do it unless the Liberal Party does something that we deeply disagree with, declares war, something like that.
00:05:22.120 It doesn't include any exceptions like that.
00:05:24.100 In principle, we can get to what it means in practice, but in principle, they've given carte blanche to the government to do whatever it wants.
00:05:32.280 And that's removed the accountability mechanism that is at the heart of responsible government.
00:05:37.140 So government doesn't have to worry now about being accountable to Parliament for three years, in principle.
00:05:43.260 Now, Jagmeet Singh, he did say at the press conference, announcing all of this, that he's like,
00:05:47.700 OK, we've signed this deal, but I can really rescind it at any time, and we're still going to be attentive,
00:05:53.180 making sure Trudeau abides by the things we want him to abide by.
00:05:56.380 So he would say, no, that he's left himself many outs.
00:05:59.780 But I guess what I don't really understand is, why sign a deal like this,
00:06:04.260 suggesting there aren't going to be any outs between now and 2025, but then also try and say that there will be?
00:06:10.300 I mean, I don't really understand the argument he's making there.
00:06:13.060 Yeah, so what I just said, and all the stuff about responsible government and the theory,
00:06:18.920 and why this, if the agreement is taken at face value, why it could be worse,
00:06:24.280 because it evades this process of responsible government and accountability.
00:06:29.620 That's all premised on the agreement actually meaning what it says.
00:06:33.940 And I think in politics, it's reasonable to hold people accountable to things they put in writing,
00:06:41.020 things they sign, and things that they make clear.
00:06:43.660 And that agreement makes all that clear.
00:06:45.540 Of course, in reality, the agreement could be torn up tomorrow.
00:06:50.540 There's no enforcement mechanism.
00:06:51.860 It's not a formal contract.
00:06:53.020 It's not like your mortgage or a lease or something.
00:06:55.960 Of course it could, but then that just prompts the question,
00:06:59.240 what was the point of the agreement, which is your question.
00:07:01.480 So either the agreement is toothless, I wrote this in the article,
00:07:07.260 either the agreement is actually toothless, in which case, why are we talking about it?
00:07:11.740 Or it means something, but the NDP has made themselves toothless.
00:07:17.520 It's got to be one or the other.
00:07:19.300 And I don't know which it is.
00:07:20.960 Time will prove which it is.
00:07:22.760 But it can't be a very important groundbreaking agreement on the one hand,
00:07:27.980 but also be something that can be torn up tomorrow.
00:07:31.140 I find it quite remarkable when you actually read the text of this agreement,
00:07:34.660 and it's posted on the prime minister's website.
00:07:36.540 It's written like it's a platform or like it's a mini throne speech or a mini budget.
00:07:43.900 They say, we've made this deal, and here are the terms of the deal.
00:07:46.660 We're going to be having our different whips meeting and our senior staff meeting on a monthly basis or what have you,
00:07:52.200 and here are all the different items that we're going to be working towards for the next few years.
00:07:56.920 And I'm looking at this.
00:07:58.120 I'm going, this is a very odd kind of document.
00:08:00.920 Like it's kind of a platform, but we're not in an election.
00:08:05.020 These are things that the NDP talked about these things during the election,
00:08:08.040 but they are not the first place, not the second place, not the third place party in parliament.
00:08:11.760 So what gives?
00:08:12.840 The liberals have suddenly picked it up.
00:08:14.700 Is this a thing that the people should have more of a say in?
00:08:19.880 Yes, ideally.
00:08:22.080 Ideally, the people should have as much say as possible in how our governments run
00:08:25.440 within the limits of popular control and government expertise, on the other hand.
00:08:31.860 There's a healthy tension between the two.
00:08:34.180 But yes, I think what you're getting at is nobody voted for this.
00:08:37.700 This is, and this is why I think some people have said the NDP have effectively given
00:08:44.460 Trudeau and the liberals a majority government without having earned it.
00:08:50.700 So people did not vote for this.
00:08:53.700 And you can't just add up the 32 and a half percent of people who voted for the liberals
00:09:00.400 and the 17 or so percent who voted for the NDP and say, aha, 50%, it's a majority.
00:09:05.960 No, because the 17% of NDP did not vote for liberals and the 32% voted for liberals did
00:09:12.380 not vote for the NDP.
00:09:13.620 Nobody voted for this and nobody voted for, no 50% of Canadians or even enough to get a
00:09:20.860 majority in parliament, which is much less, voted for this plan.
00:09:26.040 Now, Howard, I've heard a lot of people say you can do it.
00:09:29.060 It doesn't break any rules.
00:09:30.360 So what's the problem?
00:09:31.360 But I feel like part of the problem is that because this isn't done often or has pretty
00:09:36.880 much not really been done at the federal level before, people are acclimatized to the way
00:09:41.360 the system functions, immaterial of the technical rules.
00:09:44.900 And while this may technically not violate our democracy, I feel like it violates the spirit
00:09:49.680 of our democratic norms.
00:09:51.400 Is that a fair assessment?
00:09:53.660 Absolutely.
00:09:54.140 I think that's a really good way of putting it.
00:09:57.860 We have a very strange political system.
00:10:01.140 And as I said, we inherited it from the English and, well, the United Kingdom.
00:10:05.160 And it's very equally strange over there.
00:10:07.440 And it's strange in the sense that very few of the rules by which we are governed are actually
00:10:12.200 written down.
00:10:13.460 We have a constitution from 1867 that sort of divides power between the provinces and the
00:10:19.000 federal government.
00:10:20.200 And then we have a charter and a 1982 constitution, which provides sort of a bill of rights and
00:10:27.180 certain other guarantees around language and other sort of core substantive matters.
00:10:33.940 But actually how our government works day to day is not written down, except in the standing
00:10:40.480 orders of the House of Commons and of the Senate.
00:10:43.780 But those are creations of the House of Commons and the Senate, and they can be changed.
00:10:47.440 What it rests on then is a series of practices and principles and conventions that have grown
00:10:56.160 up over centuries.
00:10:58.160 And at the core of that is this idea that the government, and by government, I have to be
00:11:07.120 very clear about these terms because a lot of these things get used interchangeably.
00:11:11.180 The government in the sense of the executive branch of the cabinet, the people that actually
00:11:16.280 run government day to day, the ministers who run all the ministries, defense, health, transport,
00:11:22.100 that is the government.
00:11:23.280 In the American system, they are outside of the legislature.
00:11:26.580 You have the president and the cabinet who exist in their own world.
00:11:30.880 In our system, they are embedded in the legislature.
00:11:34.460 Each minister is a member of the legislature.
00:11:36.640 And this is what the Victorian theorist of the Constitution, Walter Badgett, called the efficient
00:11:44.480 secret of the Westminster parliamentary system.
00:11:47.240 And it's efficient because by embedding or partially fusing the government with the legislature,
00:11:54.860 it forces the government to work with the legislature day to day to get its agenda passed.
00:11:59.400 And this healthy tension produces scrutiny and accountability for the government on a daily basis.
00:12:09.040 And we see this in question period and committees.
00:12:12.600 And this is enforced by sort of a mutual assured destruction policy.
00:12:20.320 Obviously, it's not a great analogy, but on each side, the government or the legislature,
00:12:24.640 they can end this at any time.
00:12:26.360 The government can go to the crown.
00:12:28.280 If it's having trouble getting its agenda passed through the legislature, if its policies are not
00:12:33.720 getting through, if it thinks it can't get funding, it can go to the governor general and ask for
00:12:40.640 the legislature to be dissolved and make its case to the people and hope that more members are elected
00:12:45.900 who will support their agenda so they can get it passed in the new legislature after the election.
00:12:51.260 On the other hand, the legislature at any time, if it loses what's called confidence in the government,
00:12:57.780 if it disagrees fundamentally with what the government is doing, it can vote non-confidence in the government,
00:13:02.820 which also triggers an election.
00:13:04.460 So either the legislature or the government can trigger an election at any time.
00:13:08.280 And that produces the incentive for them to work together and the accountability that keeps the government honest,
00:13:15.900 and what the NDP has done here is said, we are not going to vote no-confidence in the government for three years.
00:13:21.160 We're not going to move a motion, and we're not going to vote for a motion if the conservatives of the bloc raise a motion.
00:13:27.560 So they've essentially removed the accountability mechanism for the government for three years.
00:13:32.340 Now, as you said earlier, Jagmeet Singh says he might still hold them to account,
00:13:38.220 but then that brings us back to the question of what was the point of the agreement.
00:13:41.020 On the terms of the agreement, they are giving the government effectively a pass from accountable government for three years.
00:13:48.040 And that's why I said at the beginning this could be worse than actual coalition government,
00:13:52.400 where the government is still potentially held to account.
00:13:54.280 Now, the NDP has already sent out press releases and messages to the media, to its supporters,
00:14:00.120 saying this is a great victory for us because the issues that we are passionate about,
00:14:05.200 the things we want to deliver to Canadians, are included in this deal,
00:14:08.940 and we will have been able to bring about a dental plan for seniors, for low-income Canadians,
00:14:13.600 and various other pledges that the NDP has been pushing for,
00:14:17.060 and that is what makes this deal entirely worth it.
00:14:19.340 And I know, Howard, when some people have been talking about this deal,
00:14:21.940 they have not been talking about the sort of back-end components of it,
00:14:26.740 the democratic principles of it.
00:14:28.060 They've just been talking about the policy issues.
00:14:31.440 Can one separate these in the discussion?
00:14:34.200 Should they always be merged?
00:14:35.580 How do you deal with that aspect?
00:14:36.940 The idea of, oh, if we poll Canadians, should there be a dental plan?
00:14:40.100 And you get, okay, 60% say yes.
00:14:41.920 There you go.
00:14:42.440 So this actually greenlights everything that's going on right now.
00:14:45.620 Another good question.
00:14:46.740 I'd say four things, but two are very quick.
00:14:50.580 One, put aside the issue that health care is actually largely a provincial responsibility,
00:14:56.520 which the NDP has never seen a national plan they don't love.
00:15:02.440 I remember seeking, promoting once a national biking strategy or something.
00:15:07.080 Anyway, so let's put aside the constitutional division of powers on this issue.
00:15:13.060 Let's also put aside the popularity of these things.
00:15:16.740 Because, okay, well, let's put aside the popularity for now.
00:15:23.740 I think it's relevant, and I think we can come back to that as a pure sort of political horse race question
00:15:31.240 about what this means for each party.
00:15:34.380 Why have the liberals not done this before?
00:15:36.040 Why are they doing it now?
00:15:37.020 So, part of that.
00:15:38.960 The two other elements, though, are, one, will they actually be able to get these policies through
00:15:46.520 with the liberal support within three years?
00:15:49.300 And I think, while it's possible to lock in some progress on these issues,
00:15:54.880 the wheels of the federal government just don't move fast enough to actually create
00:15:57.940 the policies that they're looking for in the short time frame,
00:16:02.600 considering all the work that has to be done, coordinating with the provinces,
00:16:05.780 working with Quebec, because, as you know, Quebec already has some of these things,
00:16:08.940 like PharmaCare.
00:16:10.680 So, I think the NDP may have sold themselves a bit short on this by not, then, for example,
00:16:20.740 insisting on saying, well, we want the Minister of Health to be an NDP member,
00:16:26.800 so we can actually make sure that progress is made on this,
00:16:29.520 and we can actually hold the government more to account directly within Cabinet
00:16:32.520 and be part of the actual governing coalition, and that would be a coalition government.
00:16:37.080 So, I think the NDP has a great press release right now,
00:16:41.560 but that doesn't necessarily mean that they will actually have results by 2025.
00:16:45.640 The other part, though, and this gets back to the process that I'm most concerned about
00:16:49.740 and what I wrote about, and that is, there's more to government than legislation.
00:16:57.440 In fact, legislation is a very small part of government.
00:16:59.920 What a government does in the House of Commons is very public,
00:17:03.780 but most of what government actually does is done outside of Parliament.
00:17:08.480 And I cited examples in my article for, so the Declaration of the Emergencies Act,
00:17:12.760 for example, that happened outside of Parliament.
00:17:14.860 It's only later that you get accountability or non-accountability in Parliament.
00:17:18.500 Going to war, providing military aid to Ukraine,
00:17:21.860 something the NDP opposed up until very recently, that's done outside Parliament.
00:17:25.820 Setting immigration levels.
00:17:29.520 Distributing literally tens of billions of dollars of grant money every year.
00:17:33.480 I mean, the way the government actually implements its policies.
00:17:37.000 That's all done outside of the House of Commons.
00:17:40.500 And so are bad things.
00:17:42.160 The sponsorship scandal that we remember from the 1990s,
00:17:45.500 that all happened outside of Parliament.
00:17:49.080 Trudeau's ethics violations happened outside of Parliament.
00:17:52.300 International diplomacy, whether we're being an effective leader on the world stage.
00:17:57.760 I have it outside of Parliament.
00:17:59.800 And we rely on Parliament to actually hold government accountable within the House
00:18:04.040 for all the things it does outside the House of Commons.
00:18:07.320 And by saying that in exchange for a few pieces of legislation,
00:18:11.900 even very important pieces of legislation,
00:18:14.040 the NDP will not vote non-confidence of the government,
00:18:17.860 means that it's not going to hold the government.
00:18:19.340 It's saying it won't hold the government accountable
00:18:22.360 for all the things that the government does
00:18:24.700 day-to-day outside the House of Commons.
00:18:27.400 It puts all the focus on pieces of legislation,
00:18:30.120 which, as I've said, I think it's unlikely to get that much progress on,
00:18:34.040 in exchange for giving up its oversight role
00:18:36.600 for all the myriad things that ministers, the prime minister,
00:18:40.680 the cabinet, and the government do day-to-day to run the country.
00:18:44.340 We'll be back with more full comment with Howard Anglin in just a moment.
00:18:49.340 Howard Anglin, one thing that came to mind
00:19:06.760 when I was watching this being announced is
00:19:08.980 who first came up with this idea?
00:19:11.480 Who presented it to who?
00:19:12.820 Was it a liberal idea, an NDP idea?
00:19:15.120 Seems like it was likely a liberal idea.
00:19:17.460 Why do you think the liberals are doing this right now?
00:19:21.680 So the answer I've heard most often is,
00:19:25.280 well, this buys Trudeau peace for three years.
00:19:29.040 A minority government means that you're always on a war footing.
00:19:31.280 You're always worried about an election being called.
00:19:33.720 And this way he gets peace of mind so he can
00:19:35.940 govern without having to worry about an election for three years.
00:19:41.720 He effectively gets a majority government, as we discussed.
00:19:44.320 I think there's something to that.
00:19:47.480 But as you pointed out, Jagmeet Singh has actually said
00:19:50.180 he's not going to actually give the government a complete pass.
00:19:53.480 He's talking about both sides of his mouth.
00:19:55.040 He's saying the government gets a pass.
00:19:56.860 The government doesn't get a pass.
00:19:58.380 The realities of politics are the liberal government becomes massively unpopular.
00:20:03.220 There's still a good chance we can have an election before 2025.
00:20:06.800 So Trudeau may not have, he may have bought himself peace in the short term,
00:20:10.300 but he doesn't necessarily buy himself three full years.
00:20:12.660 Now, so why did they do this?
00:20:16.800 Well, I think, I think it's because,
00:20:21.500 I'm going to put on a slightly partisan hat here,
00:20:24.100 which I try not to do in my commentary.
00:20:25.940 I think the liberal party is out of ideas.
00:20:28.060 The liberal party is a stale and listless party.
00:20:31.100 It is out of energy.
00:20:32.600 It's out of ideas.
00:20:33.880 What's the last big idea that the liberal party had that you can think of?
00:20:37.120 They're out of ideas.
00:20:39.920 The only ideas that are left out there on their side of the aisle,
00:20:44.080 center left to far left, are the NDP's old ideas.
00:20:47.760 So I think what they've got here is a policy transplant.
00:20:51.620 It's an agenda transfusion.
00:20:53.340 It's the political equivalent of a heart or a brain transplant and a blood transfusion from the NDP.
00:21:02.220 So now what we're left with is this sort of strange,
00:21:05.180 think of like, I'm dating myself here,
00:21:07.500 that old young Frankenstein movie or something.
00:21:09.280 We have a Frankenstein's monster with a liberal body with an NDP brain and blood right now.
00:21:16.220 And I think that Trudeau is probably okay with this because deep down,
00:21:23.700 he is more ideologically, intellectually, emotionally aligned with the NDP
00:21:30.220 than he is to the old Chrétien, Martin, let alone Wilfrid Laurier liberal party,
00:21:35.460 even his dad's liberal party.
00:21:36.660 I mean, there's an irony here that he was a, to put it crudely,
00:21:42.360 he was chosen as the leader of the liberal party for his name.
00:21:47.740 After failures of Dylan and Ignatiev,
00:21:51.020 Trudeau was selected because he was a Trudeau and that inspired people.
00:21:55.520 But the irony is that almost as soon as he became the leader,
00:21:58.920 he showed that had he not been born with the last name Trudeau,
00:22:02.020 he probably would be a more natural member of the NDP or the Green Party.
00:22:05.020 And his policies have reflected that.
00:22:08.980 So I think he finally gets to govern with the liberal brand
00:22:12.760 and the NDP Green policies that he actually deep down supports.
00:22:18.820 Howard, to what degree do you think we may be normalizing this idea?
00:22:22.740 Let me present a scenario to you.
00:22:24.240 So I know you said that this deal may not stay together up until 2025.
00:22:28.400 Let's say it more or less does and things move along
00:22:31.220 and he manages to keep Jagmeet Singh on board.
00:22:32.940 We get up to the election and right now we have,
00:22:35.060 I guess you can call it a coalition of the winners
00:22:36.820 and that the liberal government did win the most seats in the House of Commons.
00:22:39.260 We get up to 2025 and then there's an election.
00:22:41.740 And as we know, in the past two elections,
00:22:43.620 the conservatives won the popular vote under Andrew Scheer first,
00:22:46.960 under Erno Toole second.
00:22:49.040 And then we get into the 2025 election
00:22:51.080 and the conservatives win the popular vote again.
00:22:52.880 But the seat distribution is such that they have the most seats
00:22:55.340 in the House of Commons.
00:22:56.940 But the liberals and NDP still have a lot of seats combined.
00:23:00.860 And they go, you know what?
00:23:01.800 We're actually kind of liking this arrangement we have.
00:23:04.200 So, you know, we already did this sort of coalition thing
00:23:06.760 for the past few years.
00:23:08.260 Why don't we just sort of kind of keep doing a coalition kind of thing?
00:23:11.400 Is that possible?
00:23:14.460 Not only is it possible,
00:23:15.700 I think that we've already had that for seven years effectively.
00:23:21.000 It just hasn't been formalized.
00:23:22.560 So the liberals have effectively been governing
00:23:25.840 with the support of the NDP,
00:23:27.500 very occasionally the bloc,
00:23:28.960 but mostly with the support of the NDP,
00:23:31.020 for seven years.
00:23:33.200 And I've seen somebody liken this on Twitter to
00:23:38.300 two people have been living together for seven years
00:23:40.820 and finally decided to actually get married.
00:23:43.100 They're just formalizing what's been the fact for seven years.
00:23:48.420 I'm going to steal that, by the way, for another column.
00:23:50.500 That's a good analogy.
00:23:51.220 But so in that case,
00:23:54.380 I think that the liberals and the NDP
00:23:58.060 both learned their lesson in 2006 and 2008,
00:24:02.260 where they let the Conservative Party
00:24:05.300 under Stephen Harper govern
00:24:06.640 for about five years as a minority.
00:24:09.860 I don't think that the liberals or the NDP
00:24:11.920 will ever let that happen again.
00:24:13.720 Wow.
00:24:13.840 I think if Harper government had won a minority in 2015 election,
00:24:21.640 they'd come back five seats shy of a majority.
00:24:24.660 They would not have been allowed to govern.
00:24:26.620 I think that the NDP and the liberals would have joined together
00:24:29.220 to vote no confidence on the throne speech
00:24:32.300 at the first opportunity,
00:24:33.700 and then gone to the governor general
00:24:35.840 and proposed something like what is happening now,
00:24:39.020 either a formal coalition government
00:24:40.380 or an informal coalition like this.
00:24:44.120 And so they didn't have to in the end,
00:24:46.920 and the liberals had a majority.
00:24:49.360 But since then,
00:24:49.920 the liberals have governed effectively with the support of the NDP.
00:24:52.000 And I think they're quite happy doing that for now.
00:24:54.780 And I think they'll be happy to do that
00:24:56.240 until it starts hurting them politically.
00:24:59.100 And it will start hurting them politically
00:25:00.440 if they find their brand too diluted
00:25:02.340 and too many Canadians who,
00:25:06.720 as always happens at some point in a democracy,
00:25:10.180 decide it's time to, quote,
00:25:12.120 throw the bums out.
00:25:13.860 And that will happen eventually.
00:25:16.840 I think this forestalls that.
00:25:18.520 But in a democracy at the end of the day,
00:25:20.840 the government can't govern forever.
00:25:25.000 And I think there are dangers to this
00:25:28.660 for the liberal brand as well
00:25:30.480 that will make that more likely
00:25:32.140 probably in the next three to five years.
00:25:35.440 Wow.
00:25:35.920 Howard, I want to get your thoughts
00:25:37.080 on the degree to which Justin Trudeau
00:25:39.000 has done other procedural things
00:25:42.200 a little differently
00:25:43.900 and that we haven't always known
00:25:45.600 how to make of them initially.
00:25:47.640 I remember when Justin Trudeau
00:25:48.980 banished liberal senators
00:25:50.660 from the Liberal Party,
00:25:51.780 he just sort of dissolved
00:25:53.000 the Liberal Senate caucus
00:25:54.620 that was prior to him becoming prime minister.
00:25:56.320 And we were told it was this sort of brilliant thing
00:25:58.100 and all these arguments.
00:25:58.820 I don't know.
00:25:59.660 There's something a little strange about that.
00:26:00.860 That was kind of him banishing the old guard.
00:26:03.400 We've had some other things
00:26:04.480 since he's become prime minister.
00:26:05.820 He violated the Shawcross rule
00:26:08.480 when it came to the SNC-Lavalin issue,
00:26:10.520 getting involved in that
00:26:11.340 deferred prosecution agreement.
00:26:13.220 We've had invoking the Emergencies Act,
00:26:15.220 which Canadian Civil Liberties Association
00:26:16.660 and others have said,
00:26:17.960 well, hold on, this is unlawful.
00:26:20.060 We have this happening now.
00:26:22.540 They're all, I guess you could argue
00:26:24.180 they're minor things one by one.
00:26:26.940 Taken together,
00:26:28.460 I feel like he's really,
00:26:30.460 you know what they all say,
00:26:31.820 doing politics differently.
00:26:33.820 And I feel like all of these
00:26:35.140 kind of fall slightly
00:26:36.660 into the category of democratic backsliding.
00:26:39.320 I don't feel like these things
00:26:40.540 make us more free.
00:26:41.920 I think they make us
00:26:42.920 ever so slightly less free.
00:26:46.740 Funny, when people say
00:26:47.920 doing politics differently,
00:26:49.240 they usually mean it's a possible thing.
00:26:52.680 I think you have to take those one by one
00:26:54.980 and then maybe look at an overall pattern.
00:26:57.880 I mean, I think you're right.
00:26:59.420 Expelling the liberal senators
00:27:01.620 was very much a signal
00:27:03.260 that this is Justin Trudeau's party.
00:27:05.600 This is not the liberal party, period.
00:27:09.580 This is the Trudeau party.
00:27:10.840 And the banishing of the old guard
00:27:12.700 was a banishing of people
00:27:14.540 who thought that they were liberal senators.
00:27:17.980 And yeah,
00:27:20.600 and I think that's part of
00:27:21.620 their remaking the party in his image.
00:27:24.160 Now, the Shawcross convention,
00:27:26.380 the putting pressure on Jody Wilson-Raybould
00:27:28.240 to offer effectively a criminal plea deal
00:27:31.780 to SNC-Lavalin,
00:27:33.620 I'd say that that was a bit
00:27:35.580 of the old liberal party showing it,
00:27:36.920 the old cronyism that got them
00:27:38.480 into trouble in the past.
00:27:40.840 The fact that they're beholden
00:27:44.020 to large corporate interests,
00:27:46.120 particularly in Montreal.
00:27:47.920 I think that's the old liberal party.
00:27:50.560 And then the Emergencies Act,
00:27:52.160 well, in that sense,
00:27:53.840 it was a diet version
00:27:56.600 of the War Measures Act
00:27:57.800 that his father enacted.
00:27:59.220 And so you can see that
00:28:00.060 as being him following
00:28:02.720 the footsteps of his father.
00:28:03.800 So I think individually,
00:28:06.980 it's a pattern of events,
00:28:10.300 each of which on its own
00:28:12.960 eats away at
00:28:15.760 the liberal democratic norms
00:28:20.100 of our parliamentary system,
00:28:22.180 but none of which is so extreme
00:28:25.360 that it on its own
00:28:27.420 necessarily threatens
00:28:28.960 to break that system.
00:28:31.400 I think that this is the way
00:28:33.600 that Trudeau has made the party
00:28:35.440 in his image,
00:28:36.340 both by making him
00:28:37.400 the centerpiece
00:28:38.240 of all of his elections,
00:28:40.640 of his government,
00:28:42.020 of our foreign policy.
00:28:42.960 it's a brand Trudeau party.
00:28:46.060 I think that
00:28:47.040 not only
00:28:48.360 have his actions
00:28:51.260 undermined our democratic
00:28:52.920 and parliamentary norms,
00:28:54.240 I think that
00:28:55.640 presidentialization
00:28:58.020 or almost regalization
00:28:59.260 of the liberal party itself
00:29:00.880 is actually also eating away
00:29:04.740 and undermining
00:29:05.420 the norms of the liberal party.
00:29:07.620 And I think there are a lot
00:29:08.360 of disaffected liberals,
00:29:09.700 old,
00:29:09.960 probably most liberals
00:29:12.700 over 50,
00:29:13.860 who remember the old liberal party
00:29:15.600 as the great liberal brand
00:29:17.080 who wonder
00:29:18.140 what's going to happen
00:29:18.960 when Trudeau's gone.
00:29:19.760 Does that liberal brand
00:29:20.580 still exist
00:29:21.200 or has he so made it
00:29:22.720 his own party
00:29:23.220 that when he goes,
00:29:25.320 the party is effectively
00:29:26.980 left without a brand?
00:29:29.720 Well, let me ask you,
00:29:30.260 there's one complaint
00:29:31.080 that was regularly made
00:29:32.240 against the Stephen Harper government
00:29:33.940 that there was
00:29:34.800 a centralization of power
00:29:36.440 under the PMO
00:29:37.540 and there are also things
00:29:38.620 like omnibus bills,
00:29:39.820 which were getting
00:29:40.480 larger and larger
00:29:41.500 that were also
00:29:43.060 sort of pushing things
00:29:44.280 away from legislators
00:29:45.360 and more towards the PMO
00:29:47.380 and that now,
00:29:48.340 not that the same people
00:29:49.040 who had made that accusation
00:29:49.980 against Stephen Harper
00:29:50.540 would acknowledge this now,
00:29:51.520 but then I would say
00:29:52.340 that that stuff
00:29:52.940 is just on steroids now
00:29:54.340 with the Trudeau PMO.
00:29:56.120 What would you say
00:29:57.020 about all of that?
00:29:59.240 Yes.
00:29:59.640 Well, there's certainly
00:30:00.300 been a centralizing tendency
00:30:01.680 in Canadian government
00:30:02.800 that the great
00:30:04.900 political scientist
00:30:06.040 Donald Savoy in Canada
00:30:07.020 identifies starting
00:30:08.480 with the first Trudeau government
00:30:10.440 in the 1960s.
00:30:12.420 He's been,
00:30:13.120 Donald Savoy's been
00:30:13.800 a great critic
00:30:14.420 of what he calls
00:30:15.280 governing from the center,
00:30:16.580 this irrigation of power
00:30:19.020 into the prime minister's office.
00:30:21.260 I think that did happen
00:30:24.400 in the Stephen Harper government.
00:30:26.260 It's happened even more
00:30:27.180 in the Trudeau government,
00:30:27.940 I think far more
00:30:28.640 in the Trudeau government.
00:30:30.020 I think it's also happened
00:30:30.920 though in other
00:30:31.440 Westminster systems
00:30:32.300 if you look around the world.
00:30:33.440 I think it's certainly happened
00:30:34.300 in the same accusations
00:30:36.020 that leveled against
00:30:36.660 number 10 Downing Street,
00:30:37.780 particularly starting
00:30:38.280 with Tony Blair's government.
00:30:40.420 And I think part of that
00:30:41.380 is just a reaction
00:30:41.980 to the new media environment,
00:30:44.560 particularly a post-social
00:30:45.960 media environment
00:30:46.520 where government
00:30:47.700 has to be so sensitive
00:30:50.200 to everything that happens
00:30:51.180 at every moment
00:30:52.640 that it has to coordinate
00:30:53.600 its actions to a degree
00:30:54.880 that wasn't necessary
00:30:57.300 30, 40, 50, 100 years ago,
00:31:00.420 where you could have ministers
00:31:02.520 freelancing on policy
00:31:03.760 and ministers who are
00:31:04.760 what they call
00:31:05.500 cabinet government
00:31:06.340 reach minister
00:31:07.080 is his or her own
00:31:09.340 little fiefdom
00:31:11.020 that controls everything
00:31:12.280 that happens to the ministry
00:31:13.000 and doesn't have to talk
00:31:13.880 to their colleagues
00:31:14.880 except at cabinet meetings
00:31:15.960 and doesn't have to ever speak
00:31:17.820 to the staffers
00:31:19.700 and the PMO.
00:31:21.220 That's a relic
00:31:22.020 of a different era
00:31:22.640 at a time where
00:31:23.740 any inconsistency
00:31:27.620 in policy,
00:31:28.420 any lack of coordination
00:31:29.400 is magnified
00:31:31.640 by our 24-7,
00:31:34.580 not just 24-7,
00:31:35.700 second-by-second
00:31:36.380 media environment.
00:31:38.100 You need more coordination
00:31:39.880 and it's unfortunately
00:31:40.820 driven by
00:31:41.500 those external circumstances.
00:31:44.900 I don't know
00:31:46.480 that it makes
00:31:46.940 for worse government,
00:31:47.860 but it certainly makes
00:31:48.380 for different government.
00:31:49.620 It makes, I think,
00:31:50.240 for a less ambitious
00:31:51.240 government overall
00:31:52.080 and I think
00:31:53.500 that's a problem.
00:31:55.200 But, yeah,
00:31:56.500 it's certainly
00:31:57.380 something that's real.
00:31:58.440 It's happened.
00:31:59.020 It happened
00:31:59.480 under the Harper government
00:32:01.000 and it's,
00:32:02.780 yeah,
00:32:02.980 I think
00:32:03.540 no PMO in Canadian history
00:32:05.300 has come close
00:32:06.120 to the degree
00:32:06.700 of a stranglehold
00:32:07.940 that the Trudeau government,
00:32:10.080 particularly the early
00:32:10.620 Trudeau government
00:32:11.240 with Jerry Butts
00:32:12.500 and Katie Telford
00:32:13.260 effectively being
00:32:15.200 surrogate prime ministers.
00:32:17.120 We've never seen
00:32:18.020 this level
00:32:18.500 of control before.
00:32:20.460 And I think this
00:32:21.320 this new agreement
00:32:24.320 with the NDP
00:32:24.840 will be interesting
00:32:25.680 in the way it tests that.
00:32:28.520 I think trying
00:32:29.460 to bring the NDP
00:32:30.240 partly into the fold
00:32:31.440 may have interesting
00:32:33.040 consequences for that.
00:32:33.940 I don't know
00:32:34.420 how that will play out,
00:32:35.840 but
00:32:36.080 but it
00:32:38.440 it could
00:32:39.980 it could throw
00:32:41.160 a wrench
00:32:42.020 into the works there.
00:32:43.500 What do you think
00:32:44.420 are the ramifications
00:32:45.180 of this
00:32:45.680 for the conservatives?
00:32:47.080 Whoever wins
00:32:47.660 the conservative leadership
00:32:48.600 race later on this year
00:32:49.840 was maybe hoping,
00:32:51.180 OK, we're in a minority
00:32:51.900 government situation.
00:32:53.300 It would be great
00:32:53.760 to do what they do
00:32:54.320 in the U.S.
00:32:54.860 and sort of have
00:32:55.300 the primaries roll
00:32:56.360 into the general.
00:32:57.260 I get all that momentum
00:32:58.020 and here I am now.
00:32:58.920 I'm prime minister of Canada.
00:33:00.660 Not going to be that easy.
00:33:02.060 Won't happen that way.
00:33:03.020 You got to sit
00:33:03.600 in
00:33:04.260 in store and away
00:33:06.060 for several years now
00:33:07.040 in 2025,
00:33:08.000 sort of biding your time
00:33:09.460 doing whatever
00:33:10.480 you're going to do
00:33:10.940 and then
00:33:11.340 you'll eventually
00:33:12.180 have an election
00:33:12.780 sometime later on
00:33:13.640 down the road.
00:33:14.380 Is this
00:33:15.000 a positive thing
00:33:16.460 in terms of
00:33:17.240 the conservative caucus
00:33:18.300 being able to
00:33:19.400 have time to retool,
00:33:21.760 rebuild,
00:33:22.460 go in a different direction
00:33:23.580 or is it
00:33:24.180 is it just a negative thing
00:33:25.420 in terms of the fact
00:33:26.100 they're left
00:33:26.460 treading water for a while?
00:33:29.980 We'll see.
00:33:30.940 Honestly,
00:33:31.660 you probably follow this
00:33:33.620 more closely day to day
00:33:34.680 than I do, Anthony.
00:33:36.120 My backseat
00:33:37.920 thoughts
00:33:39.080 for what they're worth
00:33:39.940 are that
00:33:40.580 in the medium term
00:33:42.500 this will be good
00:33:43.700 for the conservative party.
00:33:44.640 I think that
00:33:45.960 this Frankenstein's monster
00:33:47.320 that I spoke of earlier
00:33:48.120 where you have
00:33:48.440 this liberal body
00:33:49.160 with an NDP brain
00:33:50.120 now
00:33:50.420 I think that's
00:33:52.500 a good
00:33:54.240 large
00:33:55.020 target
00:33:56.080 for the conservative party.
00:33:57.540 You can accuse
00:33:58.180 the liberals
00:33:58.600 of being
00:33:59.040 of all the sins
00:34:00.240 of the NDP
00:34:00.680 and you can
00:34:01.120 accuse the NDP
00:34:02.260 of having all the sins
00:34:03.040 of the liberal party.
00:34:05.940 I think it's going
00:34:07.040 to be
00:34:07.480 a difficult
00:34:08.560 a more difficult
00:34:09.680 agreement
00:34:11.040 to implement
00:34:11.700 than either party
00:34:12.540 thinks
00:34:12.880 right now.
00:34:14.540 The happiest time
00:34:15.480 for a lot of contracts
00:34:16.380 and agreements
00:34:16.820 is the moment
00:34:17.400 they're signed
00:34:17.880 and they often
00:34:18.780 fall apart
00:34:19.240 quite quickly
00:34:19.660 afterwards
00:34:20.100 particularly in politics.
00:34:21.700 We saw this
00:34:22.300 with the
00:34:22.740 planned coalition
00:34:24.100 back in 2008
00:34:25.100 where everybody
00:34:26.340 thought it was
00:34:26.640 a great idea
00:34:27.140 on the day
00:34:27.640 and a couple
00:34:28.500 months later
00:34:29.200 Stéphane Dion
00:34:29.860 was out as
00:34:30.380 liberal leader
00:34:30.840 and Harper
00:34:32.340 managed to pass
00:34:32.980 a budget
00:34:33.580 with the support
00:34:34.160 of Michael Ignatiev's
00:34:36.200 interim leadership.
00:34:36.920 I could see
00:34:39.720 this lasting
00:34:41.500 a little while
00:34:43.100 and falling apart
00:34:43.640 and I could see
00:34:44.020 it falling apart
00:34:44.480 quite quickly.
00:34:45.560 I don't think
00:34:46.420 that the NDP
00:34:47.080 and the liberals
00:34:47.600 would be that
00:34:48.200 as happy
00:34:49.200 with each other
00:34:49.820 in 2025
00:34:50.860 if it lasts
00:34:51.600 that long
00:34:52.460 as they are today
00:34:53.520 and I think
00:34:54.620 that will
00:34:55.200 create
00:34:56.560 an internal
00:34:57.700 dynamic
00:34:58.180 that will
00:34:58.520 distract them
00:34:59.100 from governing
00:34:59.620 and will weaken
00:35:00.280 the government
00:35:00.720 and improve
00:35:02.420 the chances
00:35:02.780 of the conservatives
00:35:03.440 but we still
00:35:06.860 don't know
00:35:07.060 who the conservative
00:35:07.580 leader is going
00:35:08.020 to be.
00:35:08.620 We don't know
00:35:09.120 if Trudeau is going
00:35:09.820 to lead the liberals
00:35:10.660 into the next election.
00:35:11.780 I think those two
00:35:12.520 things are more
00:35:13.020 important than
00:35:13.920 this agreement
00:35:14.480 for the next election
00:35:15.920 and until we know
00:35:17.840 that I don't think
00:35:18.480 we can really say
00:35:19.080 anything too definitive.
00:35:21.040 Howard,
00:35:21.200 let me ask you
00:35:22.160 in terms of
00:35:23.460 what this agreement
00:35:24.500 might create
00:35:25.400 in terms of
00:35:27.160 public appetite
00:35:28.140 for the direction
00:35:29.780 the conservative
00:35:30.340 party should go
00:35:31.180 by which I mean
00:35:31.840 there are some
00:35:32.620 who have said
00:35:33.040 well you've got
00:35:33.420 this coalition
00:35:34.080 government thing
00:35:34.780 happening
00:35:35.100 liberal NDP
00:35:35.720 it clearly suggests
00:35:37.100 that Canadians
00:35:38.300 are going to be
00:35:38.720 normalized into
00:35:39.380 this sort of thing
00:35:40.020 and they're going
00:35:40.340 to need a more
00:35:40.860 red Tory type person
00:35:42.040 Jean Charest
00:35:42.580 is going to have
00:35:43.100 to be leader
00:35:43.620 because there's
00:35:44.100 no way
00:35:44.520 after what they've
00:35:45.780 had with the
00:35:46.320 Trudeau-Sing coalition
00:35:47.620 they're going to
00:35:48.000 go in a different
00:35:48.460 direction
00:35:48.880 or one can say
00:35:49.880 the other thing
00:35:50.420 which is
00:35:50.780 people are going
00:35:52.000 to want something
00:35:52.500 that differentiates
00:35:53.640 itself from
00:35:54.400 the previous
00:35:54.840 offering
00:35:55.200 so you're going
00:35:55.560 to want someone
00:35:56.080 who's a more
00:35:56.520 true blue
00:35:57.220 conservative
00:35:57.800 I mean I think
00:35:58.560 the fact that
00:35:59.100 we went from
00:35:59.580 Stephen Harper
00:36:00.100 majority
00:36:00.620 to Justin Trudeau
00:36:01.760 majority
00:36:02.260 and you know
00:36:03.700 Stephen Harper
00:36:04.740 is definitely
00:36:05.440 not described
00:36:06.160 as a sort of
00:36:06.860 red Tory figure
00:36:07.720 and Justin Trudeau
00:36:08.420 is not described
00:36:09.180 as a right-leaning
00:36:09.980 liberal
00:36:10.720 that was quite
00:36:11.560 a jump there
00:36:12.900 to go from
00:36:13.340 one to the other
00:36:14.060 could we see
00:36:15.120 the appetite
00:36:15.500 for the same
00:36:16.040 thing in 2025
00:36:17.140 I think absolutely
00:36:19.860 we could
00:36:20.280 I think when
00:36:22.220 people start
00:36:22.700 talking about
00:36:23.560 spatial metaphors
00:36:25.660 in politics
00:36:26.340 they get to
00:36:27.600 a level deeper
00:36:28.280 than how
00:36:30.180 most politics
00:36:30.840 works
00:36:31.240 this idea
00:36:32.040 that if
00:36:32.780 this moves
00:36:33.780 the liberals
00:36:34.300 to the left
00:36:35.020 it will open
00:36:35.580 up space
00:36:36.340 in the center
00:36:36.980 for somebody
00:36:37.800 to fill
00:36:38.580 or for the
00:36:39.220 conservatives
00:36:39.600 to move
00:36:40.220 to the center
00:36:40.800 I don't think
00:36:42.120 I look
00:36:42.540 I'm not a
00:36:42.960 campaigner
00:36:43.580 I'm not a
00:36:44.500 political
00:36:45.040 strategist
00:36:46.980 in that sense
00:36:47.500 I don't think
00:36:48.420 that's how
00:36:48.800 politics works
00:36:49.640 when it comes
00:36:50.420 to electoral
00:36:50.860 politics
00:36:51.320 I think people
00:36:52.120 like distinctions
00:36:53.600 and differentiation
00:36:54.440 more than they
00:36:55.720 think about
00:36:56.120 things like
00:36:56.580 well who's
00:36:57.040 moving to
00:36:57.840 fill space
00:36:58.420 that's being
00:36:58.720 vacated by
00:36:59.260 another party
00:36:59.820 so I do
00:37:01.820 think that
00:37:02.200 conservatives
00:37:02.620 have an
00:37:03.020 opportunity
00:37:03.440 to really
00:37:04.220 distinguish
00:37:05.320 themselves
00:37:05.840 particularly
00:37:06.740 when you
00:37:07.080 think about
00:37:07.400 the spending
00:37:07.880 that this
00:37:08.400 is going
00:37:09.300 to require
00:37:09.780 put aside
00:37:11.620 the popularity
00:37:12.100 of the policies
00:37:12.780 and I
00:37:13.320 actually think
00:37:13.780 it's crazy
00:37:14.300 that we
00:37:14.620 don't cover
00:37:15.080 dental care
00:37:15.900 and prescription
00:37:16.640 drugs in Canada
00:37:17.380 under our
00:37:17.760 healthcare system
00:37:18.440 that's a
00:37:20.500 discussion
00:37:20.800 for another
00:37:21.220 time
00:37:21.520 I think
00:37:22.300 the provincial
00:37:23.980 government
00:37:24.320 should have
00:37:24.640 done this
00:37:24.960 a while ago
00:37:25.540 put that
00:37:26.460 to the side
00:37:27.040 the spending
00:37:28.480 when then
00:37:30.080 you add in
00:37:30.740 our newfound
00:37:32.000 defense
00:37:32.500 commitments
00:37:33.120 which Trudeau
00:37:34.120 has now gone
00:37:34.480 to Europe
00:37:34.820 and said
00:37:35.120 that we're
00:37:35.360 going to
00:37:35.660 up our
00:37:36.460 defense
00:37:36.780 spending
00:37:37.140 where's
00:37:38.040 the money
00:37:38.360 coming from
00:37:38.920 at a time
00:37:39.620 when inflation
00:37:40.140 is threatening
00:37:40.820 to hit
00:37:41.120 double digits
00:37:41.780 it's absolutely
00:37:44.080 crazy
00:37:44.380 and I think
00:37:44.740 a conservative
00:37:45.180 party that
00:37:45.720 can present
00:37:46.340 itself on
00:37:47.080 its historical
00:37:48.240 strength of
00:37:50.020 prudent fiscal
00:37:51.260 management
00:37:51.720 discipline
00:37:52.440 being serious
00:37:53.820 about things
00:37:54.620 like inflation
00:37:55.200 and spending
00:37:55.720 I think that
00:37:56.640 differentiation
00:37:57.080 works massively
00:37:58.560 in the
00:37:59.040 conservatives
00:37:59.340 favor going
00:38:00.320 forward
00:38:00.680 and I think
00:38:01.520 the conservative
00:38:01.900 party would do
00:38:02.420 well to
00:38:02.800 whoever becomes
00:38:04.260 the leader
00:38:04.600 they would
00:38:05.940 do well
00:38:06.460 to emphasize
00:38:08.640 the distinctions
00:38:09.520 with this
00:38:10.560 coalition
00:38:10.960 rather than
00:38:11.880 trying to
00:38:12.220 sort of
00:38:12.820 be clever
00:38:13.360 and moving
00:38:13.820 and fill
00:38:14.260 some
00:38:14.620 mushy
00:38:15.560 center
00:38:15.900 Howard
00:38:17.340 before we
00:38:17.740 go I want
00:38:18.160 to get your
00:38:18.580 thoughts on
00:38:19.220 the long-term
00:38:20.180 ramifications
00:38:21.060 for Canadian
00:38:22.160 democracy
00:38:22.620 and where
00:38:23.400 you think
00:38:24.020 we're headed
00:38:25.140 because it
00:38:26.080 does seem
00:38:26.460 like we
00:38:26.760 can't put
00:38:27.080 the genie
00:38:27.440 back in
00:38:27.800 the bottle
00:38:28.120 when it
00:38:28.500 comes to
00:38:28.920 things like
00:38:29.440 invoking
00:38:29.920 the
00:38:30.100 emergencies
00:38:30.520 act
00:38:30.940 at a
00:38:31.160 time
00:38:31.400 when
00:38:31.660 well maybe
00:38:32.540 it wasn't
00:38:33.240 actually
00:38:33.580 warranted
00:38:34.180 creating
00:38:34.840 this sort
00:38:35.220 of
00:38:35.420 quasi
00:38:35.920 coalition
00:38:36.680 non-coalition
00:38:37.580 and you
00:38:38.500 said the
00:38:38.980 liberals
00:38:39.220 are
00:38:39.460 undermining
00:38:40.300 our
00:38:40.540 democratic
00:38:41.280 and
00:38:41.520 parliamentary
00:38:41.880 norms
00:38:42.380 they've
00:38:42.620 had a few
00:38:43.060 examples
00:38:43.780 of doing
00:38:44.260 that
00:38:44.580 we were
00:38:45.200 originally
00:38:45.580 thinking
00:38:46.020 that we
00:38:46.760 would have
00:38:47.100 a sort
00:38:47.420 of
00:38:48.260 very calm
00:38:49.420 democratic
00:38:49.960 process
00:38:50.440 I always
00:38:50.780 think back
00:38:51.160 to that
00:38:51.440 Francis
00:38:51.880 Fukuyama
00:38:52.500 end of
00:38:52.920 history
00:38:53.300 thesis
00:38:53.920 but now
00:38:54.340 we see
00:38:54.620 no things
00:38:55.000 are changing
00:38:55.460 you mentioned
00:38:55.860 how social
00:38:56.380 media
00:38:56.660 24-hour
00:38:57.160 news
00:38:57.400 cycle
00:38:57.760 makes
00:38:58.760 governments
00:38:59.200 react
00:38:59.620 faster
00:39:00.200 sometimes
00:39:00.760 more hastily
00:39:01.620 we've
00:39:02.100 got rules
00:39:02.680 being slightly
00:39:03.340 bent here
00:39:03.920 and there
00:39:04.240 what's
00:39:05.100 going on
00:39:05.700 what's
00:39:06.160 the future
00:39:06.540 going to
00:39:06.820 bring
00:39:07.080 wrap it
00:39:09.520 all up
00:39:09.800 in a bow
00:39:10.140 for us
00:39:10.700 bring out
00:39:12.000 the crystal
00:39:12.360 ball
00:39:12.680 okay
00:39:13.520 I think
00:39:16.180 in a
00:39:16.620 democratic
00:39:17.440 system
00:39:17.940 and in
00:39:18.280 our
00:39:18.420 parliamentary
00:39:18.800 system
00:39:19.340 at the
00:39:20.260 end of
00:39:20.580 the day
00:39:20.960 the people
00:39:21.980 do get
00:39:22.460 to decide
00:39:22.980 and that
00:39:23.280 is the
00:39:23.540 constant
00:39:23.940 and I
00:39:24.860 think
00:39:25.160 that
00:39:25.680 for a
00:39:26.280 long time
00:39:26.720 we've been
00:39:27.060 very
00:39:27.320 complacent
00:39:27.880 as a
00:39:28.320 country
00:39:28.640 and our
00:39:29.120 voters
00:39:29.380 have been
00:39:29.600 complacent
00:39:30.040 we get
00:39:30.700 really worked
00:39:31.660 up about
00:39:32.080 issues
00:39:32.720 I'm not
00:39:33.140 saying that
00:39:33.640 some of
00:39:33.900 the fights
00:39:34.700 we've had
00:39:35.360 politically
00:39:35.660 in the
00:39:35.920 last
00:39:36.180 10
00:39:36.760 20
00:39:37.060 or even
00:39:37.360 30
00:39:37.600 years
00:39:37.900 haven't
00:39:38.200 been
00:39:38.320 important
00:39:38.800 they are
00:39:40.040 they're
00:39:40.440 very
00:39:40.620 important
00:39:40.960 but
00:39:41.940 they're
00:39:42.100 not
00:39:42.280 they haven't
00:39:42.780 been
00:39:42.920 existential
00:39:43.460 and
00:39:44.740 not even
00:39:47.220 existential
00:39:47.640 in the
00:39:47.960 sense of
00:39:48.260 will
00:39:48.440 Canada
00:39:48.720 continue
00:39:49.120 to
00:39:49.340 exist
00:39:49.720 we
00:39:50.500 actually
00:39:50.660 had
00:39:50.820 that
00:39:50.960 in
00:39:51.060 1995
00:39:51.460 I guess
00:39:51.960 but
00:39:52.900 in the
00:39:53.160 sense
00:39:53.380 of
00:39:53.620 do
00:39:54.460 people
00:39:54.740 really
00:39:55.040 feel
00:39:55.280 that
00:39:55.420 their
00:39:55.580 lives
00:39:55.960 are
00:39:56.160 changing
00:39:56.600 in a
00:39:57.220 bad
00:39:57.480 way
00:39:57.800 seriously
00:39:58.380 and
00:39:58.740 are
00:39:58.880 threatened
00:39:59.180 we've
00:39:59.640 had
00:39:59.740 that
00:39:59.860 in parts
00:40:00.220 of
00:40:00.340 the
00:40:00.440 country
00:40:00.840 the
00:40:01.700 oil and
00:40:01.920 gas
00:40:02.260 recession
00:40:04.740 in
00:40:05.240 Alberta
00:40:05.980 starting
00:40:06.380 in
00:40:06.520 about
00:40:06.660 2014
00:40:07.180 really
00:40:08.100 changed
00:40:08.540 people's
00:40:08.920 lives
00:40:09.160 in
00:40:09.320 a
00:40:09.420 deep
00:40:09.620 way
00:40:09.880 but
00:40:11.140 in
00:40:11.320 most
00:40:11.560 of
00:40:11.680 the
00:40:11.800 country
00:40:12.180 things
00:40:13.060 have
00:40:13.180 been
00:40:13.440 getting
00:40:14.460 maybe
00:40:15.020 a little
00:40:15.340 bit
00:40:15.520 worse
00:40:15.800 slowly
00:40:16.340 a little
00:40:17.060 bit
00:40:17.220 better
00:40:17.400 in
00:40:17.520 other
00:40:17.680 ways
00:40:18.020 and
00:40:18.700 people
00:40:19.080 haven't
00:40:19.360 really
00:40:19.540 felt
00:40:19.940 that
00:40:20.400 a
00:40:22.680 crisis
00:40:24.260 and
00:40:25.120 I think
00:40:25.440 now
00:40:25.880 starting
00:40:26.400 probably
00:40:26.900 the last
00:40:28.880 two
00:40:29.180 years
00:40:29.520 with
00:40:29.720 COVID
00:40:30.020 I think
00:40:31.000 people
00:40:31.240 now
00:40:31.480 look
00:40:31.700 out
00:40:31.860 and
00:40:31.980 they
00:40:32.100 see
00:40:32.260 crises
00:40:32.680 everywhere
00:40:33.200 they
00:40:34.000 see
00:40:34.360 a
00:40:35.260 once in
00:40:35.580 a
00:40:35.660 century
00:40:35.860 pandemic
00:40:36.360 they
00:40:36.940 see
00:40:37.240 inflation
00:40:37.900 potentially
00:40:38.360 returning
00:40:38.760 to
00:40:38.960 early
00:40:39.440 1980s
00:40:40.180 levels
00:40:40.480 where
00:40:40.940 they
00:40:41.080 won't
00:40:41.220 be able
00:40:41.400 to afford
00:40:41.780 their
00:40:42.360 mortgage
00:40:42.640 payments
00:40:43.060 you see
00:40:43.860 young people
00:40:44.360 that look
00:40:44.660 out and
00:40:44.980 say
00:40:45.200 they won't
00:40:46.080 be able
00:40:46.260 to afford
00:40:46.620 a job
00:40:47.060 that will
00:40:47.600 allow them
00:40:47.940 to actually
00:40:48.380 ever own
00:40:49.440 a house
00:40:50.260 even own an
00:40:51.420 apartment or a condo
00:40:52.560 in a city like
00:40:53.160 Vancouver or Toronto
00:40:53.960 and then
00:40:55.780 and then you
00:40:56.000 look out
00:40:56.360 at world
00:40:57.020 affairs
00:40:57.440 and you
00:40:57.820 see
00:40:58.140 the rise
00:40:59.740 of Chinese
00:41:00.420 power
00:41:00.780 and under
00:41:01.480 President Xi
00:41:02.420 and PRC
00:41:03.160 this sinister
00:41:05.100 surveillance
00:41:05.620 state
00:41:06.120 some of which
00:41:06.900 aspects
00:41:07.300 are slowly
00:41:08.580 creeping into
00:41:09.140 our own
00:41:09.460 society
00:41:09.860 and then
00:41:11.440 they look
00:41:11.860 at
00:41:12.260 Europe
00:41:13.140 which has
00:41:14.360 sort of
00:41:14.860 been the
00:41:15.140 fun
00:41:15.380 holiday
00:41:16.880 destination
00:41:17.420 for the
00:41:17.800 last 50
00:41:18.240 years
00:41:18.500 and the
00:41:19.500 potential
00:41:20.020 threat of
00:41:20.880 nuclear war
00:41:21.520 on its
00:41:21.940 border
00:41:22.200 when things
00:41:23.920 get really
00:41:24.320 really really
00:41:24.840 bad
00:41:25.240 I think
00:41:26.040 it can
00:41:26.680 shake up
00:41:27.080 our politics
00:41:27.680 so
00:41:28.780 while
00:41:30.140 this
00:41:30.700 agreement
00:41:31.200 is
00:41:32.700 interesting
00:41:33.180 we'll see
00:41:33.540 how it
00:41:33.760 plays out
00:41:34.260 I think
00:41:34.860 far more
00:41:35.360 important
00:41:35.640 for the
00:41:35.960 next
00:41:36.220 election
00:41:36.640 and probably
00:41:37.120 the election
00:41:37.520 after that
00:41:38.080 will be
00:41:38.680 if people
00:41:39.320 really think
00:41:39.860 that their
00:41:40.340 livelihood
00:41:41.280 and their
00:41:41.700 way of
00:41:42.000 life
00:41:42.300 are
00:41:42.680 fundamentally
00:41:43.760 threatened
00:41:44.300 then I
00:41:45.420 think that
00:41:45.740 provides an
00:41:46.160 opportunity
00:41:46.520 for each
00:41:47.720 party to
00:41:48.240 present a
00:41:48.780 very clear
00:41:49.600 philosophical
00:41:50.600 platform
00:41:51.800 and make
00:41:54.200 the pitch
00:41:54.500 to Canadians
00:41:54.960 about how
00:41:55.460 what they
00:41:56.860 have to
00:41:57.180 offer
00:41:57.500 will make
00:41:58.320 their lives
00:41:58.920 more secure
00:41:59.780 more stable
00:42:00.880 more prosperous
00:42:02.000 more free
00:42:03.040 these are
00:42:04.420 the things
00:42:05.100 we've come
00:42:05.400 to take
00:42:05.620 for granted
00:42:06.060 in Canada
00:42:06.540 and suddenly
00:42:07.060 can't
00:42:07.780 and I
00:42:08.460 think that
00:42:08.780 that offers
00:42:09.380 the Conservative
00:42:09.940 Party
00:42:10.380 a real
00:42:11.260 opportunity
00:42:11.700 to go back
00:42:12.340 to first
00:42:13.020 principles
00:42:13.440 and remind
00:42:16.060 Canadians
00:42:16.580 that the
00:42:17.540 society that
00:42:18.100 we have
00:42:18.740 is not an
00:42:19.300 accident
00:42:19.640 it's based
00:42:20.500 on certain
00:42:21.200 philosophical
00:42:22.180 premises
00:42:22.660 you can
00:42:24.660 call them
00:42:25.320 conservatism
00:42:27.260 some people
00:42:27.900 call parts
00:42:28.580 of it
00:42:28.880 classical
00:42:29.380 liberalism
00:42:30.020 whatever
00:42:30.480 and one
00:42:31.960 of those
00:42:32.380 is that
00:42:32.900 our
00:42:33.720 institutions
00:42:34.300 like Parliament
00:42:34.880 function
00:42:35.420 as they
00:42:36.000 are meant
00:42:36.780 to function
00:42:37.200 and that
00:42:37.800 means that
00:42:38.120 the government
00:42:38.400 is held
00:42:38.700 accountable
00:42:39.100 day to
00:42:39.500 day
00:42:39.720 and that
00:42:40.400 brings us
00:42:40.740 back to
00:42:41.100 this point
00:42:41.620 that the
00:42:42.660 NDP
00:42:42.900 have
00:42:43.520 effectively
00:42:44.360 ceded
00:42:44.780 their
00:42:45.200 scrutiny
00:42:45.500 and accountability
00:42:46.040 role here
00:42:46.700 that's a
00:42:47.420 problem
00:42:47.620 for Parliament
00:42:48.300 it's a
00:42:48.860 problem
00:42:49.000 for our
00:42:49.260 country
00:42:49.580 but it's
00:42:50.240 a potential
00:42:50.760 opportunity
00:42:51.460 for the
00:42:51.900 Conservative
00:42:52.240 Party
00:42:52.580 to take
00:42:53.720 Parliament
00:42:54.100 seriously
00:42:54.540 to take
00:42:54.980 its
00:42:55.140 responsibility
00:42:55.680 and opposition
00:42:56.260 seriously
00:42:56.800 as the
00:42:57.280 NDP
00:42:57.480 is not
00:42:57.940 and to
00:42:59.120 present to
00:42:59.540 Canadians
00:42:59.940 a clear
00:43:01.220 vision
00:43:01.760 of a
00:43:03.460 Canada
00:43:03.760 that will
00:43:04.160 be an
00:43:04.580 island of
00:43:05.020 stability
00:43:05.420 in a
00:43:06.000 world of
00:43:06.480 chaos
00:43:08.180 and Stephen
00:43:10.900 Harper did
00:43:11.360 that very
00:43:11.740 successfully
00:43:12.220 during the
00:43:13.640 global financial
00:43:14.300 crisis
00:43:14.720 which frankly
00:43:16.100 looks like a
00:43:16.620 blip compared
00:43:17.140 to what we're
00:43:17.580 going through
00:43:17.920 now
00:43:18.200 and I
00:43:19.060 think
00:43:19.300 the
00:43:20.040 next
00:43:20.220 Conservative
00:43:20.540 leader
00:43:20.760 has an
00:43:21.080 opportunity
00:43:21.380 to do
00:43:21.980 that
00:43:22.280 again
00:43:22.800 for a
00:43:23.140 new
00:43:23.260 generation
00:43:23.600 of
00:43:23.780 Canadians
00:43:24.080 in 2015
00:43:24.760 or earlier
00:43:25.820 interesting
00:43:27.940 points and a
00:43:28.780 very interesting
00:43:29.480 conversation
00:43:30.160 Howard Anglin
00:43:30.760 thanks so much
00:43:31.580 for joining us
00:43:32.080 today
00:43:32.300 thank you
00:43:33.780 thank you very
00:43:33.920 much
00:43:34.120 Anthony
00:43:34.420 full comment
00:43:35.660 is a post
00:43:36.180 media podcast
00:43:36.960 I'm Anthony
00:43:37.760 Fury
00:43:38.060 this episode
00:43:39.040 was produced
00:43:39.540 by Andre
00:43:40.060 Pru with
00:43:40.820 theme music
00:43:41.320 by Bryce
00:43:41.800 Hall
00:43:42.040 Kevin Libin
00:43:43.000 is the
00:43:43.400 executive
00:43:43.760 producer
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