Full Comment - Identity politics puts its progressive spin on old-school anti-Semitism

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00:02:03.620 Anti-Semitism.

00:02:05.160 Some would call it the original hatred.

00:02:07.180 The original form of racism.

00:02:09.040 Hatred directed towards Jews simply for being Jews.

00:02:12.380 The question is, what do we do about it?

00:02:14.540 How do we push back against this very ancient hatred?

00:02:19.640 It's something that people have been trying to do for decades, and it doesn't always work.

00:02:24.280 Hello, my name is Brian Lilly.

00:02:25.560 This is the Full Comment Podcast.

00:02:27.440 And our next guest is going to discuss some of the ways that you can push back and why some of the efforts to push back against anti-Semitism are, well, just the wrong strategies, the wrong forms of fighting back.

00:02:42.140 But before we get to Philip Slayton, I do want to remind you that you can and should hit the subscribe button on Full Comment.

00:02:48.240 We'd love for you to subscribe, and you can do that on any platform that you're listening to us on, on Google Podcasts, on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, wherever you're listening.

00:02:57.900 Hit the subscribe button, leave a review, and make sure that you share this with your friends.

00:03:02.560 Now, what is anti-Semitism?

00:03:06.620 That's probably something we should try and define at the beginning, and it's something that Philip Slayton talks about in his book, Anti-Semitism, An Ancient Hatred in the Age of Identity Politics.

00:03:16.580 Philip, thanks for the time.

00:03:18.400 I'm glad to be here, Brian.

00:03:19.380 How would you define anti-Semitism?

00:03:22.440 Because that's something that in recent by-election here in Ontario, there was a big debate about, given the comments of one particular candidate.

00:03:33.660 There was a debate about whether her comments actually rose to the level of anti-Semitism or not.

00:03:39.120 So how do you define it?

00:03:41.240 Well, Brian, it won't surprise you to hear me say that there is no easy answer to that question.

00:03:46.540 There's no easy answer to what is anti-Semitism.

00:03:50.200 Probably these days, the most commonly mentioned or cited definition is a definition by the International Holocaust Remembrance Association, the IHRA, that was formulated a few years ago.

00:04:02.660 I personally find it highly unsatisfactory, as do many people, partly because it's so vague.

00:04:09.160 It's one of these definitions that whatever you're looking for, you're going to find it.

00:04:12.940 And partly because one thing which is not vague, but one thing it's not vague about is the attitude towards Israel.

00:04:20.900 Any kind of criticism of Israeli policies or the state of Israel can be, under this definition, construed to be anti-Semitic.

00:04:28.320 But anyway, there's no easy answer, Brian, to what is anti-Semitism.

00:04:33.820 People talk about hatred of Jews, but there are many ways hatred can be expressed, and there are many different kinds of hatred.

00:04:40.100 So I'm afraid I cannot give you a simple, neat, pat answer to the question.

00:04:45.380 One of the things that came up in the by-election I mentioned was this idea that Jews have a divided loyalty, that they are loyal to Israel rather than to Canada,

00:05:01.140 but also that Jews control large parts of the world.

00:05:06.220 In fact, there was one comment, the effect that Benjamin Netanyahu is controlling people around the world who are killing people in Canada. 0.98

00:05:16.180 And you look at this and you say, first off, how do people believe such ridiculous things?

00:05:22.200 But let's talk about those two angles, the idea of divided loyalties. 0.90

00:05:28.840 Catholics used to face that.

00:05:32.720 JFK faced that when he was running for president.

00:05:35.120 Well, he's not going to be loyal to America.

00:05:37.240 He's going to be loyal to the Vatican.

00:05:40.000 That has pretty much disappeared for Catholics.

00:05:42.600 It hasn't for Jews, and it's raised when people enter public life in this country. 0.99

00:05:50.340 Well, you're right, it is. 0.82

00:05:51.940 I mean, I regard it as a ludicrous accusation.

00:05:55.860 You can be a good, loyal, let's say, Canadian, and also Jewish and loyal to your religion and your race, and even a sympathizer with or a supporter of Israel.

00:06:07.700 But that's not divided loyalties.

00:06:09.680 There's lots of room for all of those sentiments in one person. 0.84

00:06:12.420 So that particular claim, I think, is ludicrous.

00:06:14.580 The conspiracy aspect of all this, which is Jews control the world, they control Hollywood, they control international banking and all of that, these kinds of ideas have been kicking around for quite some time. 0.93

00:06:27.980 They seem to have gathered some momentum recently, and I attribute that to the rise of populism, the general rise in the Western world, and perhaps elsewhere, of populism.

00:06:38.460 Because part of populism is a belief in conspiracy theory.

00:06:42.320 There's always somebody else, some other person, some other group outside that is subverting your agenda, the rightful agenda.

00:06:49.640 So I think the conspiracy side of it, although it's been around, as I say, for quite some time, its recent acceleration, its recent momentum is part of the whole populist trend that we clearly see in politics these days.

00:07:03.140 So that's the idea of divided loyalties, this idea of Jews being, as you mentioned, controlling banks, controlling Hollywood, controlling media. 0.89

00:07:15.360 Where does that come from?

00:07:17.600 Because is that a 20th century edition that we're still living with, or is that something that has been part of anti-Semitism from the beginning?

00:07:27.860 Well, I think it's been, to some extent, Brian, part of anti-Semitism from the beginning.

00:07:33.840 I mean, it has modern expressions of the kind that we've just mentioned, you just described.

00:07:39.220 Where does it come from?

00:07:40.480 Well, as I say, I think it comes from, first of all, from some deep human psychological traits.

00:07:46.500 I mean, people are always looking for some other explanation of misfortunes that they think have fallen on them, either individually or as a group.

00:07:54.340 They're always looking for that.

00:07:55.300 They're always looking for somebody who may be responsible for their misfortune.

00:08:00.200 And the Jews, to some extent, historically, have presented an easy target, an easy group to pick on.

00:08:07.040 And then, as I say, all of this is turbocharged by populism.

00:08:11.860 And also, I should add, by social media. 0.76

00:08:13.960 It's now become much easier for people with silly opinions, ludicrous opinions, hateful opinions, to broadcast those opinions and even get some support for those opinions on social media.

00:08:26.000 So, social media has a lot to ask for in this particular context.

00:08:29.580 I want to ask you about a form of anti-Semitism that it's new to me, maybe not to you.

00:08:38.380 And then once we establish all this, we'll get more into what you've written in your book and how people are pushing back.

00:08:45.800 But I've seen lately this new to me description of, well, they're not the real Jews, they're Ashkenazi Jews, and those are the people that control the world. 0.98

00:09:01.360 Is that a new variation on a tune, or has that been part of it from the beginning?

00:09:10.440 No, I actually haven't heard that view expressed in quite that way.

00:09:15.380 There are, of course, two mainstreams of Judaism.

00:09:17.760 There's the Ashkenazi Jews, who essentially trace their origin to Eastern Europe.

00:09:22.760 And there are the Sephardic Jews, which in recent times, certainly, trace their origins to North Africa, before that to Spain and Portugal.

00:09:30.000 So, those are the two mainstreams of Judaism.

00:09:34.460 Both are found represented in most Jewish communities, and certainly in Israel.

00:09:38.500 And by the way, interestingly enough, historically, the Ashkenazis and the Sephardi Jews have not got along very well with each other.

00:09:46.680 Certainly, that has been true in the early days.

00:09:48.860 As is often the case among ethnic and religious groups, there are factions within factions.

00:09:55.080 Yeah, it's human nature.

00:09:56.260 So, the Ashkenazi Jews, those from Eastern Europe, were the earliest settlers of power at the time, what is now Israel.

00:10:02.820 And the Sephardi Jews came from North Africa somewhat later on.

00:10:05.860 And when they came to Israel from North Africa, the Ashkenazi Jews already there looked down upon them and thought they were fit only for farm laborers and domestic servants, that sort of thing.

00:10:17.680 I think that's now in the past. 0.87

00:10:20.720 But the idea that somehow Ashkenazi Jews are a special, powerful sect, you know, and they're the people that control the world, it's just ludicrous, as I say. 0.90

00:10:31.460 Now, let me just add one thing. 0.84

00:10:33.300 There are only about 15 million Jews in the world.

00:10:35.780 So, if the Jews control the world, they're doing a pretty good job against huge odds. 0.93

00:10:38.960 But it has to be said that they've been, Jews have been highly successful.

00:10:44.460 I mean, Israel, which is predominantly, although not exclusively, the Jewish state, has been wildly successful economically, militarily, in all kinds of ways.

00:10:53.560 Not socially so much, but in many ways, wildly successful.

00:10:56.860 It's a very powerful Middle Eastern country with nuclear weapons and a formidable army, and that's been proven time and time again.

00:11:06.420 Jews in the diaspora, and that principally means the United States, Jews in the diaspora have likewise been highly successful.

00:11:13.500 But it's a small group.

00:11:15.040 It has been, on the whole, there are exceptions, but on the whole, a highly successful group.

00:11:19.180 And that may have led to some of these ideas that Jews are running things.

00:11:22.560 But I can assure you, Brian, that they are not.

00:11:26.860 And having lived adjacent to Jewish communities in Montreal and here in Toronto, it's not as if every Jewish family is wealthy.

00:11:39.960 There are poor Jewish families just like there are poor families from any other background.

00:11:43.900 Of course there are.

00:11:45.400 Yeah, it's, but that Ashokanazi thing. 0.96

00:11:50.280 So, I wasn't wrong that it appears to be new, but that's one of the things coming out on social media is that, well, Jews aren't the problem.

00:12:00.380 It's the Ashokanazi. 0.98

00:12:01.720 Those are the problem.

00:12:03.360 Well, I would just say that the Ashokanazi are, in fact, Jews. 0.83

00:12:06.760 Well, no, I know that.

00:12:09.240 But this is the new form that I'm seeing on social media and sometimes being sent to me by racist readers that want me to adopt a particular viewpoint. 0.99

00:12:22.740 Well, Brian, as I'm sure you know, I'm sure you would agree, the thing about social media is you can be an ignorant person and you can be a silly person and you can be a prejudiced person. 0.95

00:12:35.640 But that doesn't stop you from going on social media and expressing your views. 0.69

00:12:39.320 That's both the horrible thing about social media and also, in a way, it's great glory that everybody has a platform, which didn't used to be the case. 0.97

00:12:49.180 But, however, things like, you know, the Ashokanazi aren't really Jews and they're the ones who are controlling the world are just plain silly. 0.81

00:12:55.920 One of the points I make in my book is that when it comes to responding to anti-Semitism, when it comes to dealing with it, you have to decide what you're going to respond to, what really matters and what really doesn't. 0.81

00:13:09.320 And I would say to you that the kind of claim or accusation or conspiracy theory that you've just been describing is so manifestly silly, you know, it's like that claim was made not too long ago that the cause of wildfires in California were Jewish space lasers.

00:13:27.540 I hadn't heard that one.

00:13:29.580 Yeah, well, that was, I think, Marjorie Taylor Greene advanced that theory.

00:13:33.320 So when people say things like that, there's only one appropriate response, I think, which is just a laugh.

00:13:38.060 I mean, there's no sense saying, no, that's not true.

00:13:41.000 No, you're wrong.

00:13:42.020 Here's an argument. 0.90

00:13:42.920 It's just so ludicrous that it's best just to ignore.

00:13:46.260 So one of the main points, I guess, of my book on anti-Semitism that's just come out recently, I have to put a plug in for that, is to say, look, there are some things you have to deal with, some things that are very serious, expressions of anti-Semitism that are really serious, that have to be responded to in a robust way.

00:14:05.780 And there are others that are not, and you can't treat them all as if they're the same, which regrettably, I think, the Jewish, international Jewish community tends to do that.

00:14:15.360 So when, for example, a Jewish organization puts out a report that says anti-Semitism is on the rise, this year there were, I'm just pulling a number out of thin air here, this year there were 32,312 incidents of anti-Semitism.

00:14:31.880 And isn't that terrible?

00:14:33.780 I think it's appropriate to say, well, wait a minute, what were these incidents? 1.00

00:14:37.560 How many of them were just trivial, silly, stupid, and are best ignored? 0.98

00:14:42.200 And how many of them are not and should be really carefully looked at and dealt with in some effective way? 0.99

00:14:48.260 So what you're arguing for and what you argue for in the book is, all right, did somebody physically attack someone?

00:14:57.940 Did somebody vandalize a synagogue?

00:15:02.700 Was there a hateful poster put up denouncing you?

00:15:06.760 That happened recently here in Toronto, an ad billboard. 1.00

00:15:10.800 Did that happen or was someone making a stupid comment about space lasers on Twitter? 0.92

00:15:15.780 Well, I mean, what I suggest in the book is a kind of four types of anti-Semitism, each of which suggests a particular approach to deal with it. 0.97

00:15:27.320 The first kind, and I think on the whole the most common kind, is what I call degradation anti-Semitism, lack of civility.

00:15:35.260 And this is somebody scrawling a swastika on a building, which, by the way, happened on the wall of the building, the condominium that I'd live in not too long ago.

00:15:46.140 Or somebody, you know, making a nasty observation on the street as they see an Orthodox Jew in Orthodox Jewish costume going by. 0.89

00:15:55.240 This is not nice.

00:15:56.920 This is not acceptable.

00:15:58.340 This is uncivil, but I don't think it heralds a new Holocaust.

00:16:03.940 It needs to be treated for what it is.

00:16:06.600 That's one kind of anti-Semitism. 0.94

00:16:08.720 Another kind, as you just suggested, is violent anti-Semitism, when it's not just, you know, shouting dirty Jew, let's say, as somebody walks down the street, but it's punching them. 0.97

00:16:18.440 That's different. 0.85

00:16:19.640 That requires a response by the police.

00:16:23.160 It requires dealing with, in criminal law, it requires a robust judicial system, things like that.

00:16:31.160 That's much more serious.

00:16:32.160 Then you move from there to what I call private institutional anti-Semitism.

00:16:37.260 This would be when, let's say, universities had rules against Jews enrolling, when newspapers in the editorial policy consistently took an anti-Semitic stance, and so on.

00:16:50.740 That requires a different kind of response.

00:16:53.160 And then finally, you come to the, what is the worst kind of anti-Semitism, hugely serious, and that's public institutional Semitism.

00:17:02.360 That's when the government starts, for example, when the government starts adopting what could be reasonably regarded as anti-Semitic policies.

00:17:10.500 And that requires an all-out response, no matter what the cost is.

00:17:14.960 But I think it's important to say, what are we dealing with?

00:17:17.560 How serious is it?

00:17:18.800 What is its nature?

00:17:20.200 And how does a society like ours, like Canada, for example, appropriately respond?

00:17:25.760 It's not always the same.

00:17:27.500 The right response is not always the same response.

00:17:30.520 It has to be an idea of proportionality.

00:17:32.780 Would I be right in arguing that we don't have the last kind of anti-Semitism that you described, where the government is instituting anti-Semitic policies?

00:17:45.720 We may have had that in Canada in the past.

00:17:47.700 In fact, we did.

00:17:48.560 We have, yeah.

00:17:49.160 But I wouldn't say that we do now.

00:17:51.940 I agree.

00:17:52.700 I don't think we do now at all.

00:17:54.300 But we have had it in the past.

00:17:55.720 I mean, the most notorious, I think, example was during World War II.

00:18:00.240 The none is too many principle when it came to Jewish, desperate Jewish immigration or attempted immigration to Canada.

00:18:07.720 And there was quite clearly a government policy not to allow Jews who were fleeing for their lives, in many cases, to enter Canada.

00:18:16.120 I mean, that was official government policy.

00:18:17.860 So that is the last example of this that I can think of.

00:18:21.340 So we have had it in the past.

00:18:22.620 I don't think we have it now.

00:18:24.020 Now, my own perception is, and I think perhaps many of my, many members of the Canadian Jewish community would disagree with this.

00:18:31.380 But my own perception is, on the whole, there's very little anti-Semitism in Canada.

00:18:35.540 And almost all the anti-Semitism that exists is what I call degradation anti-Semitism.

00:18:41.280 It's lack of civility.

00:18:42.780 And by the way, I would point out that in our age of identity politics, rampant identity politics in this country and in others,

00:18:50.440 there's just generally a lack of civility.

00:18:52.360 It's not just directed towards Jews.

00:18:53.940 It's directed towards all kinds of people.

00:18:55.820 That is one of the fruits, the bitter fruits of identity politics.

00:19:01.860 One of many, as you say, bitter fruits of identity politics.

00:19:05.520 It can bring out the worst in people.

00:19:07.840 Yes, it certainly can.

00:19:09.020 I mean, in my view, this is maybe a bit of a segue, although not entirely early.

00:19:12.680 I deal with it in the book.

00:19:13.680 But in my view, identity politics, the modern form of it, the modern expression of it, is a breeding ground for prejudice and hatred.

00:19:23.380 Exactly the things that originally it was designed, I suppose, to come back.

00:19:27.120 We see the marches, though, in the streets of Toronto, in the streets of major cities across the country, where, how would you describe it?

00:19:38.860 When you've got marches in support of Palestinians, which is completely understandable and acceptable, and they have more than legitimate grievances.

00:19:52.300 But often they are expressed in ways that would see, well, I would argue, are anti-Semitic.

00:19:59.220 Do you have to worry about people marching down Yonge Street with banners and chants of, from the river to the sea, essentially calling for the destruction of Israel?

00:20:12.140 Do you have to be worried about that in Canada?

00:20:14.320 Or is that one that you would say, you know what, just ignore it?

00:20:16.920 Well, first of all, the Palestinians, like any other group, have the absolute right in this country to demonstrate them to march, provided they do it, in a non-violent way.

00:20:28.860 And I would entirely support that.

00:20:30.400 That's the first one.

00:20:31.720 Secondly, as you suggest, in my view at least, the Palestinians have legitimate grievances. 0.79

00:20:37.020 They have legitimate complaints, which they should feel free to express, and they should express.

00:20:41.980 Thirdly, just parenthetically, the chant, from the river to the sea, which means, I guess, it would be interpreted as a one-state solution to the Middle East problem, whereby both Israel and what is now Palestine, the Palestinian territories, form one country.

00:21:00.880 That is a viable political proposal, which many Jews support, interestingly enough.

00:21:06.620 So it's complicated.

00:21:07.440 Now, the difficulty is that things have become so embittered, partly because of policies of the Israeli government recently, I'm thinking primarily of settlements on the West Bank, they've become so embittered that now the discourse is not peaceful often.

00:21:25.520 It's not, there's no discussion, there's no conversation, there is just the hurling of slogans.

00:21:32.440 There have been attempts to do this in the past, the Oslo Accords and so on over a long period of time.

00:21:36.440 They fail, I think it's fair to say.

00:21:39.700 So now there's no legitimate way of political differences, which are major differences and compelling differences.

00:21:47.760 There's no real way for them to be expressed and addressed.

00:21:51.000 So then the discourse tends to collapse into the hurling of insults on both sides.

00:21:55.340 When you speak to someone like Erwin Cutler, though, you know, Erwin's argued that pushing back against things like this is important because if you don't, it leads to more.

00:22:12.680 It leads to taking the next step.

00:22:16.560 Is he wrong?

00:22:17.420 Well, I mean, Erwin Cutler is a very distinguished person.

00:22:23.480 He used to be a colleague of Adam McGill Law.

00:22:25.200 In fact, I've known him for a long time.

00:22:27.720 No, he's not completely wrong, but I would say two things.

00:22:31.480 The first is just pushing back against everything and anything is not a good strategy.

00:22:39.140 As I've said earlier in this conversation with you, you need to discriminate. 0.99

00:22:42.520 You need to look at what you're dealing with and then deal with it appropriately and proportionally.

00:22:48.060 Some things are not worth taking a whole lot of trouble over.

00:22:51.680 Others are.

00:22:52.480 So you have to do that.

00:22:54.160 And I think in the whole Jewish community and perhaps even my old friend Erwin Cutler, don't do that. 0.97

00:23:01.020 The second thing is that you suggest is a tricky point.

00:23:04.280 I mean, it's the argument that, well, it's all very well for you, Philip Slayton, to say, don't get too worried about some kind of lack of civility, which may involve, you know, hurting insults at Jews.

00:23:16.380 It doesn't really matter.

00:23:17.540 It's all very well for you to say that, Philip.

00:23:19.420 But one thing leads to another.

00:23:22.420 And these kinds of things lay the groundwork for much more pernicious and dangerous kind of anti-Semitism.

00:23:27.900 I mean, people say, for example, that in Nazi Germany, it began with kind of taking the status of a citizen away from Jews by denigrating them.

00:23:40.160 And that just then laid the groundwork for all the terrible things that we know subsequently occurred.

00:23:45.000 And I can see that there is some merit, there is some seriousness to that argument.

00:23:51.360 But I still think you have to look very carefully at what you're dealing with, assess its importance, some things are important, some things are not.

00:23:59.960 This is true of all aspects of life.

00:24:02.780 And then have a proportionate response.

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00:24:19.860 Philip, I want to talk to you in a few minutes about the different major forms of anti-Semitism and problems that have been experienced over the years between Jews and Christians that led to anti-Semitism, between Jews and Muslims.

00:24:33.900 But you argue in the book that Zionism is actually something that's hurt Jews when it comes to festering anti-Semitism.

00:24:46.720 I was surprised to see that, but why do you say it?

00:24:49.860 Well, I think my point is slightly different from that point that you just made, Brian.

00:24:56.020 I mean, what I don't like, what I think is unhelpful, retrograde, is a mixing up of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism.

00:25:07.260 Is the idea that if you're anti-Zionist, by which I take to mean if you're opposed to some of the more current contemporary aggressive manifestations of Zionism, if you're opposed to that, you are therefore anti-Semitic.

00:25:23.300 Because you can certainly be opposed to, not to the state of Israel, not to its existence, certain current policies of it, which might be regarded as Zionist policies, without being anti-Semitic.

00:25:35.880 Maybe we should pause for a second and just let's give the definition of what you describe as Zionism versus anti-Semitism.

00:25:45.060 So Zionism backing the belief or support of a Jewish homeland in Israel.

00:25:51.160 Yes, I think that's a fair way to put it.

00:25:53.980 That was the original Zionism, leading to the creation of Israel in 1948. 0.80

00:26:00.200 It was as a political movement.

00:26:02.180 Zionism was invented by Theodore Herzl at the end of the 19th century and promoted.

00:26:07.900 And the idea was a homeland for Jews, which was achieved. 0.92

00:26:11.260 But Zionism today tends to mean more than that.

00:26:16.540 And it's cloudy.

00:26:17.420 It's not precise, which, of course, is not helpful.

00:26:19.840 But it tends to mean robust, perhaps even expansion or protection of the Jewish homeland,

00:26:28.020 but leaving undefined exactly what the Jewish homeland is for this purpose.

00:26:33.520 You mentioned earlier on the chant, from the river to the sea.

00:26:36.740 So some Zionists think that is the Jewish homeland.

00:26:41.140 And that, of course, includes what is currently regarded as Palestinian territory, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Gaza.

00:26:49.240 So it's all muddled up.

00:26:51.040 But I think the point is that there's so much complicated politics on all sides going on that it confuses and clouds the issue of what is anti-Semitic at all.

00:27:01.000 I mean, there's been marches in the street for weeks, months now, denouncing policies of the Netanyahu government.

00:27:10.180 And that is hardly anti-Semitic.

00:27:13.320 So I guess a better way of phrasing your argument would be that perhaps excesses of Zionism or redefining of Zionism sets back the fight against anti-Semitism.

00:27:24.720 Would that be a better way?

00:27:26.780 Yes, I would say that.

00:27:28.180 But, of course, the trouble is that one man's excesses are another man's appropriate ambitions.

00:27:33.160 I mean, but you're quite right in what you say about within the state of Israel itself.

00:27:37.560 Israel itself, the state of Israel, is a highly fractured society.

00:27:42.560 It has a substantial Arab minority.

00:27:46.920 Within the Jewish community, there's Ashkenazi and Sephardi.

00:27:50.540 We talked about that before.

00:27:51.560 There are various degrees of religiosity.

00:27:55.640 There's a very strong secular movement.

00:27:59.380 And that's been manifested in these demonstrations against Netanyahu policies we've seen recently.

00:28:05.980 Although I would say one thing about that.

00:28:07.460 It does show that Israel is a free democracy with freedom of speech, which is a rare thing, certainly in the Middle East, to some extent, in the world as a whole.

00:28:21.560 So relations between Jews and other religions, and primarily we're talking about Christians and Muslims rather than Buddhism, let's say.

00:28:32.640 We don't need to go back into the ancient history of it, but there have definitely been what you might call institutional anti-Semitism within both faiths at various times.

00:28:48.280 How would you describe them now?

00:28:52.160 I mean, let's start with the Christians. 0.82

00:28:54.000 It varies widely.

00:28:55.720 Obviously, the Christian faith is broken down into hundreds, if not thousands, of different sects.

00:29:03.040 Some of them, such as evangelicals in the United States, are very supportive of Israel.

00:29:10.000 But that doesn't mean that there aren't expressions of anti-Semitism within Christianity.

00:29:17.920 How would you describe it?

00:29:18.960 Well, without getting kind of too historical about this, the history of Christianity when it comes to the way they regard and treat Jews is not very good.

00:29:29.340 And many people would say it all stems from the original deicide myth, which is the Jews killed Christ, which was the great fundamental sin.

00:29:39.520 They didn't, by the way, but so it's just historically incorrect.

00:29:42.500 But no one seems to let that stand in their way.

00:29:45.320 Many analysts think that the systematic negative view of Jews that Christians have had throughout the ages laid the groundwork or certainly didn't stop the Holocaust.

00:29:57.960 Many people think, many people think, many people look at this very carefully, think that Christian religion and the Christian church,

00:30:04.900 or in its various manifestations, is fundamentally dislikes, indeed, is opposed to Jews and the Jewish religion.

00:30:13.660 Now, you mentioned the evangelicals.

00:30:15.440 That is a difference, particularly in the United States.

00:30:17.840 There's 100 million evangelical Christians in the United States, and they, for their own curious religious reasons, seem to be very strong supporters of Israel,

00:30:27.140 but not necessarily of the Jews in Israel, which is a bit different.

00:30:31.120 When it comes to the Muslims, this is particularly interesting, and people in the modern context think that the Jews and Arabs are at each other's throats,

00:30:39.220 would like to kill each other, and have always been like that.

00:30:41.520 This is not true.

00:30:43.260 In fact, historically, the Arab countries have been quite welcoming to Jews.

00:30:48.940 When the Jews were kicked out of Spain and Portugal in the 15th century, most of them fled to various parts of the Ottoman Empire,

00:30:57.020 where they were looked after.

00:30:58.180 Admittedly, they had second-class status.

00:31:00.680 Nonetheless, they were looked after and protected, and many of them went on to become highly prominent in business and government.

00:31:07.240 So, historically, Muslims and Jews have had a certain, Arabs and Jews have had a certain sympathy and mutual regard.

00:31:14.960 Now, that has collapsed, mostly, because of the current position in Palestine.

00:31:20.280 But as people say, the thing about Palestine, the thing about the Middle East, is it's not a fight based on ideology.

00:31:26.960 It's not a clash of religion.

00:31:29.060 It's not a clash of races.

00:31:30.600 It's about land.

00:31:32.200 It's about land that two people want, and they can't all have it.

00:31:37.660 And it's a fight about land.

00:31:39.180 It's a fight about territory.

00:31:41.120 Well, it's a fight about territory that's been going on for millennia.

00:31:44.240 Well, in various ways it has, but it's had a very strong, powerful, modern expression in the last, what, hundred years or so?

00:31:53.740 So, the anti-Semitism that you see emanating out of certain clerics within Islam, do you believe that that is generated by their religious views, or are they coming up with religious reasons to say, well, here's the problem with the Jews, but it really all goes back to the issue of land?

00:32:19.280 Well, certainly in the Middle East itself, in the Palestinian Arabs themselves, I believe that to be primarily a dispute about territory, although there has subsequently been an open kind of a religious and ideological and indeed a racial overlay over that.

00:32:38.160 But it's really about, if you're a Palestinian Arab, it's about you took our land and we want it back. 1.00

00:32:44.880 That's what it's about.

00:32:45.920 More broadly speaking, it's hard to say.

00:32:48.900 I mean, you know, Muslim religion is a huge religion with billions of adherents, and within that community you get all kinds of expressions, some extreme, some repulsive, but many not.

00:33:02.300 So, it's hard to say, but you'll always find, you know, I'm sure you would agree with this, Brian, you'll always find people and groups and subgroups looking around for someone to hate and attack for their own particular reasons.

00:33:17.280 Sometimes it doesn't particularly matter who the object of their hatred is.

00:33:21.700 It's just a thing they want to do.

00:33:23.140 To wrap up, what are your suggestions for going forward?

00:33:28.120 There's, you know, a number of groups within Canada and around the world that are fighting against anti-Semitism.

00:33:38.800 Let's say that you're sitting down with someone like Michael Leavitt or, you know, the folks at B'nai B'rith.

00:33:45.440 What would you say to them?

00:33:46.840 What would your advice be?

00:33:48.580 Well, I think I would repeat to them what I've just been saying to you, which is you have to have a more discerning and more discriminating and more understanding view of what is anti-Semitism, and you need to pick your battles very carefully.

00:34:08.140 Not everything is worth a battle.

00:34:09.540 Not everything is worth a fight.

00:34:12.260 Some things don't call for much of a response at all.

00:34:15.160 Others do.

00:34:16.340 Concentrate your firepower on what really matters.

00:34:19.380 And I would also say that it has to be seen, anti-Semitism has to be seen in a broad context.

00:34:26.720 We mentioned identity politics.

00:34:29.500 One has to understand that we live in an age where all kinds of identities are being formed and being refined.

00:34:38.320 Identity groups are getting smaller all the time, and all of them have, or most of them, probably all of them, have a grievance.

00:34:45.080 They define themselves partly by opposition to other people.

00:34:48.580 They don't want other people to criticize them or even discuss them or write about them at all.

00:34:55.460 And that's anti-Semitism is caught up in this much broader political and sociological trend.

00:35:02.620 And you throw into the mix populism we talked about a little bit earlier on, the effects of social media, which turbocharges everything.

00:35:10.540 And you have a very messy kind of volatile, explosive situation.

00:35:17.280 And in that, you have to be very careful how you respond, have to respond very carefully, and you have to respond with proportionality if you want to get anywhere at all.

00:35:27.140 I think there was once a hope that anti-Semitism, like other forms of hatred, would just disappear.

00:35:35.160 But I think that, like poverty, it's something that will always be with us, and we can pass resolutions in legislatures.

00:35:44.300 We can sign on to declarations that we will end this.

00:35:47.900 I don't think it will end.

00:35:50.240 That's sad, but I don't think it will end.

00:35:52.080 You?

00:35:52.860 I entirely agree with you.

00:35:55.220 Okay.

00:35:56.120 Philip, thanks for the time and thanks for the book.

00:35:58.300 And hopefully people can pick it up.

00:36:01.080 I assume everywhere good books are sold.

00:36:03.400 Is that the saying?

00:36:05.100 I think that's the same, Brian, and I hope you're right.

00:36:07.020 Okay, thank you very much for the time.

00:36:10.980 My name is Brian Lilly.

00:36:12.620 This has been an episode of Full Comment Podcast.

00:36:15.740 Full Comment is a podcast by the Post Media Podcast Network.

00:36:20.360 This episode was produced by Andre Pru with theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:36:24.500 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:36:26.880 You can subscribe to Full Comment on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, Amazon Music.

00:36:33.140 Listen through the app or your Alexa-enabled devices, and you can help us by giving us a rating or review.

00:36:39.340 Thanks for listening.

00:36:40.440 Until next time, I'm Brian Lilly.

Full Comment - June 19, 2023

Identity politics puts its progressive spin on old-school anti-Semitism

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