Full Comment - In the former U.S.S.R., ‘everything could collapse’

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00:00:21.280 russia is very much in the news these days thanks to the actions of vladimir putin and they're in

00:00:26.480 the news for all the wrong reasons at least that's my perspective as a western hello my name is brian

00:00:32.640 lily guest host for the full comment podcast this week and we're going to take a look back to the

00:00:38.080 ussr a look at what has changed in russia over the last several years now before we get to our guest

00:00:44.800 who has tremendous insight having spent years living in moscow and working there as a journalist

00:00:50.320 i want to remind you that you can subscribe to the podcast on any platform the platform you're

00:00:55.840 listening on it now so please subscribe please leave a comment please leave a like

00:01:00.560 share this on social media it absolutely helps get the word out for these interesting conversations

00:01:07.280 that we try to bring you on full comment each and every week now russia is a country that well for

00:01:14.400 someone of my vintage we grew up fearing we grew up worried about the cold war the possibility of a

00:01:21.280 nuclear strike at any point that was in the days of the ussr in the early 90s there was a glasnost an

00:01:29.200 opening up there was a a chance an opportunity we thought for russia to join the western world to

00:01:38.560 for our countries not to be at a a state of constant threat and war over the last several years that has

00:01:47.040 reverted russia is no longer the country that it was under boris shelton and others so what is it like

00:01:54.720 now compared to during that period of optimism of hope when canada was going to moscow to open the first

00:02:03.040 mcdonald's what has changed well paul robitaille is a former member of the national assembly of quebec but

00:02:10.880 from 1990 to 1996 she lived and worked in moscow she covered the collapse of the soviet union the

00:02:18.400 independent republics that came out of that the change she recently returned to the region after

00:02:25.200 more than 25 years away and she's been running a series in national post called back to the ussr

00:02:32.240 and she joins me now paul thanks so much hello brian what what was it like being in the ussr

00:02:40.720 back in 1990 i can tell you that i still remember where i was when i heard that the berlin wall

00:02:46.400 had collapsed and it was an exciting time in my view but i never got to visit what was it like for

00:02:55.680 you being there in that time before we ask you what it's like now well actually i was there when they

00:03:03.360 first opened the mcdonald when the canadian some canadians opened the first mcdonald in moscow in

00:03:09.600 uh 1990 1991 i was uh i was present and it was quite a quite a thing um and there were huge lines

00:03:21.440 up you remember you remember uh at that time uh there was nothing in the stores there were nothing

00:03:29.040 you couldn't buy even bread i mean you have to lined up to buy bread there was to buy meat

00:03:35.920 often you would arrive and there would be no meat i i remember it was so it was so difficult to to to

00:03:42.960 buy food in moscow at that time um if my russian friend had their grandmothers their babushka their

00:03:50.880 mothers that were that would lined up i had nobody i was i was just by myself and i i didn't have time to

00:04:00.080 to to to to wait in line and i didn't have time to go to the dollar store because well the dollar

00:04:06.160 store over there was a place where it was not like the dollar store here now it was like a place where

00:04:12.080 you could buy in dollars stuff and that was the only that were the only places where you could really buy

00:04:19.280 a lot of stuff but it was um it there were maybe two stores in moscow and i didn't have time to go

00:04:26.560 there and i remember i was at the canadian embassy and i fainted because i didn't eat for for a whole

00:04:35.520 day and um that that's the way it was it was really really hard for people at that time uh hard

00:04:44.240 economically but there was hope hope that things would get better and they would have a liberal

00:04:51.280 democracy like we have a liberal democracy and that they would be able to travel to work to make money

00:04:58.800 to buy stuff and um and some people did and but some people for some people especially the elderly it

00:05:07.360 was really really hard so it was a period of hope but it was also very difficult so while we saw it as

00:05:17.120 a period of hope they saw it as a period of i can't eat i can't get basics but isn't that part of

00:05:24.800 why you know i've often heard it said that the berlin wall fell because of rock and roll and levi's

00:05:30.960 that they they would see what we had here and say we don't have any of that we want that

00:05:40.240 so was there a sense that among the people that you spoke to at that time that they wanted to

00:05:46.880 become more western that they wanted our lifestyle let's say well i think it was really really hard for

00:05:53.840 the older generation because they didn't understand exactly how it worked on the other side and they

00:06:01.680 um and and they had a life behind them and and to to adapt was hard but for the younger generation

00:06:10.000 for the people of my age at the time in their 20s in their 30s it was it was really a period of hope it

00:06:17.360 was yeah it's hard but we'll figure it out and we'll go to paris and we'll go to berlin and we'll go to the

00:06:23.120 states and we'll be free and it's the sense of freedom that really animated animated people and

00:06:30.960 give that gave them the energy to uh to continue and it was beautiful to see like these young

00:06:38.000 journalists for once in their lives thought i could do i could write what i want to write and i i i can

00:06:44.880 tell what i want to tell and um and that was really all new so uh so there was a lot of yeah there was

00:06:54.080 a lot of hope and there was uh there was a sense that everything was possible what was the most

00:07:00.800 marked change that you saw between when you left in 1996 and when you returned late last year

00:07:08.640 well in 1996 it was a bit like the the far west it was uh there was a lot of crime there was a lot

00:07:21.280 there were all kinds of gangs and uh you know people these companies these these these institutions that

00:07:32.080 belonged to the government were were liberalized then it was like a free for all so it was very chaotic

00:07:41.520 chaotic the society was chaotic um and um economically you know people the salaries were not great it was

00:07:53.120 they were struggling economically um and so when i came back 25 years later later there was uh there

00:08:03.120 were cafes they were people like in kiev for example in tbilisi in riga they are they are european cities

00:08:12.720 you could go to cafes now you could go and and go to uh there's there's store there in tbilisi there's a

00:08:21.360 there's a great uh there's a mall there's many malls there's malls in riga you could buy whatever you

00:08:27.520 want you people have salaries that permits them to to buy stuff to renovate with ikea to uh to go to

00:08:37.040 restaurants at night it's hard there's a very high inflation right now but it's um the it's it's it's

00:08:45.360 it's western societies uh with the and and they there they are much more freedom than they were

00:08:52.240 at the time even in 96. were you able so those were all cities in former soviet satellite republics

00:09:00.080 were you able to go back to moscow and see what it's like there i went back to moscow in uh 2011 and

00:09:08.560 2016 but i didn't go to moscow during that trip i don't know if i could get a visa and if i get the

00:09:16.160 visa i don't know if it would be safe for me to go to moscow i have colleagues of mine um

00:09:25.280 colleagues of mine from the cbc who had offices there and they left and they left because uh

00:09:33.360 uh it was it was dangerous to stay because if you pronounce the word war you could go to prison

00:09:39.760 for 15 years and and foreigners are not excluded of uh are not excluded of these type of laws so if you

00:09:48.800 said that russia is at war with ukraine you could go to jail yeah you could go to jail there's they passed

00:09:57.200 a law during the last year and they passed they they yeah you could go to jail for 15 years you could

00:10:03.840 also be um as a foreigner i think it's there's a there's also a risk that what's what's the name of

00:10:13.040 the young lady the basketball player who was uh oh uh griner yeah yeah well you know you could be you

00:10:20.560 could be who knows what could happen to you and then you're arrested and then you know you're

00:10:26.880 used uh as an exchange for some prisoners you know so i i understand i've been very critical

00:10:33.920 very critical of the government in moscow and in beijing it's a reason i won't visit either country

00:10:39.600 i i want to come home so obviously now this glass knows that we had hope for for russia we'll talk

00:10:49.360 about the the places you did visit in a moment but this hope that we had for the opening the glass

00:10:54.880 snows in the early 90s obviously did not come to fruition when it comes to russia

00:11:03.040 was it there at least a little bit in 2011 or has it been eroding for a long time

00:11:08.960 it was eroding since 2000 i have good friends good russian friends most of them are journalists

00:11:17.360 and uh during the 90s like i said earlier it was extraordinary for them they could i have a friend

00:11:25.120 he he opened a magazine he was uh he was a star on on uh on television he was uh hosting all kinds of

00:11:35.200 people talking of about all kinds of things on television and um he they had uh they had newspapers and

00:11:45.120 they could express themselves and of course there were there were you talked about certain things

00:11:50.800 regarding corruption was was dangerous you could be the target of of all kinds of things so these friends

00:11:59.520 lost lost everything um during the the the year 2000 and after uh the friend i was talking to you

00:12:08.720 about who opened the magazine lives now in in greece he's in exile and all his three sons are in exile

00:12:16.800 too um i have another friend it really is exile isn't it it's not they didn't choose to immigrate they

00:12:24.720 didn't want to immigrate they had to leave they had to leave some of them uh stayed uh after between 2000 and

00:12:35.280 and and the invasion uh some of them managed to stay and they uh they worked for echo moskwe that was one

00:12:42.640 of the only independent media and now it's closed but they they had to leave because it was simply too

00:12:50.080 dangerous for them my friend who lives in montenegro she uh she she lives with a woman uh she's she's a 0.66

00:12:57.520 lesbian and um she was openly gay and um but she was also when there was the invasion she was very vocally

00:13:06.880 against the war and she rapidly she felt in her building that uh people were looking at her differently

00:13:16.480 um people were threatening threatening her threatening her a little also and so

00:13:23.840 after 10 days they took their cat they took everything they had and they just escaped to uh

00:13:31.520 to turkey and from turkey they went to montenegro and they got married in montenegro and now they live

00:13:38.480 there so uh yes they live in exile and when will they come back they don't know and um the the the young

00:13:46.160 people the the young russian i i've talked to in tbilisi in georgia who are also in exiled over there

00:13:52.160 they're telling me uh we we plan two weeks in advance only we cannot plan our lives we're just

00:14:00.800 waiting but waiting for how long it could be very long for you and i um working in the media the

00:14:07.680 worst thing that happens to us in this country is that if we say something people don't like we get

00:14:12.640 mean tweets we get a nasty email a letter to the editor it's very different um criticizing

00:14:21.440 vladimir putin's regime in russia paul the places like kiev that you went to you you went to kiev during

00:14:32.240 the war uh after we describe what you saw in in when you were there well the first time i was in kiev

00:14:40.880 uh was in 1991 when he became when the country became a country when when the republic of ukraine

00:14:49.840 became independent and i remember the uh the energy on uh on the square now we call maiden square uh we

00:15:02.640 called we call we call it maidan um and uh it was like i said it was like at the beginning of something

00:15:10.720 and um it was beautiful to see now um i go back to kiev i found cafes i found young people

00:15:21.280 um you know the life materially the life of people is better but there's this they're in war there's

00:15:32.640 this fear there's a but surprisingly surprisingly in kiev right now people go about their life

00:15:42.240 they live their lives they they go to work every morning they go to school every morning they are

00:15:48.480 extremely resilient i when i was there there was the open open market it was in december it was cold but

00:15:58.960 there was an open market of farmers and people were buying what they needed you know they were

00:16:04.000 there was everything it was like you know in the summer in um in ontario or quebec or anywhere in

00:16:10.560 canada we have the farmer markets here in montreal it's at water market gentalon over there it was in

00:16:16.880 december and they had their usual weekend market and uh people were buying stuff we're sitting there

00:16:24.400 we're drinking a beer we're drinking vodka we're uh we're having a good time and um suddenly we could

00:16:33.520 hear a missile alert and we all have to go to a shelter um but uh that that happened to you while

00:16:42.720 you were there you had to go to a shelter because of an incoming missile yeah wow yeah i i took the

00:16:49.440 train from warsaw to kiev i arrived at six in the morning i had to meet someone at 10 o'clock and we

00:16:59.440 started to hear the the alarm it it rings on your phone it rings uh you could hear it also in uh in the

00:17:07.920 end of mall where you are the you um there's sirens and uh you go to shelter some people right now uh

00:17:17.200 they hear they they're not nervous at all and they could stay some people decide to stay in their place

00:17:23.280 of work but that morning my friend said look uh it's it's it's supposed to be a big attack and it's

00:17:30.800 better if we go into shelter and we went to the subway station and you go in the it you know deep

00:17:37.840 in the subway station and you you wait and we've wait three four hours and then afterwards people

00:17:44.880 when the alert was off we left and everyone everybody went back to uh to their to their work

00:17:53.360 to their home and they continue their life the restaurants that evening were full people were in

00:18:00.160 you know they were at their five to seven they're there's like a set and um yeah life continues

00:18:10.800 it's just shocking to me that uh that you went through that experience and now kiev's obviously

00:18:16.240 closer to the it's not the front lines but it's closer to it it's being struck i believe you're also

00:18:23.600 in i'm not sure if i'll pronounce it right but live live live um that is that's in uh western ukraine

00:18:31.920 closer to the polish border did you uh was it a similar situation there in that part of ukraine or was

00:18:39.440 it even more detached from the fact that there's a war going on no it's it's all the same yeah in ukraine

00:18:46.320 there's two wars there's the front line and there's the war uh in this you know there's the the front

00:18:54.000 line where there's fighting and set all the time and and there's the the other war it they target the

00:19:01.120 infrastructure and it's uh it's uh it's it's it's it's a bizarre kind of situation where as i said you

00:19:09.840 have uh you have these missiles who once in a while arrive and they usually they are um they are

00:19:17.920 intercepted by the air defense of the russian army so but every city in ukraine is is could be targeted

00:19:27.120 so even if leave is far from the front line it can be targeted of course and the the target the

00:19:33.920 infrastructure i was in odessa during that trip uh there too well often in odessa they they target

00:19:41.040 the infrastructure uh in kiev but most of the time the ukrainian intercept these missiles and people are

00:19:49.760 okay but the the 20 that that hits their target and usually it's infrastructure it's the electricity

00:19:57.120 transformer or it's the water supply well you know that creates a lot of damage and there's a lot of

00:20:03.600 people then that that have to live without electricity for uh for many hours sometimes many days you

00:20:11.040 write in your uh series for national post about being in riga latvia uh which is a nato allied

00:20:18.240 country and and how people know that at any moment they could be swallowed up um we're going to take a

00:20:25.520 quick break right now paul and then when we come back i want to ask you about that because there is a

00:20:31.440 an awful lot of tension around the the former soviet satellites that that are now nato members that

00:20:37.600 we're defending that we know putin has his eye on so we'll talk about that after the break i'm brian

00:20:43.600 lily guest host on full comment podcast more coming up in moments

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00:22:18.080 paul in one of the pieces that you wrote about being in uh riga latvia and meeting with um cabinet

00:22:25.600 minister there but you know and those are the important people and i want to hear about that but

00:22:30.560 i want to hear about the conversations you were having with people who knew and and we're telling you

00:22:37.040 hey we we we get it we know that russia could just steamroll us at any moment is that something that

00:22:45.920 you had to ask them about is that something that rolls off the tongue easily for them because it's it's

00:22:52.240 such a concern it's it's there the fear is there and uh you you take for granted it's there the um

00:23:03.040 um they they they will talk about it um they but again a bit like in kiev people live their lives and

00:23:15.040 they um and of course it's in the back of their heads it's it's in the back of their mind but it's there

00:23:23.040 is it a similar tension to what you saw in ukraine well not exactly because in ukraine you have the

00:23:32.160 sirens that once in a while reminds you that it's really there and it could uh you know anything can

00:23:39.120 happen at any time but um in um it's it's it's it's very uh it's a very strange kind of atmosphere in

00:23:48.480 in riga for example it's europe it's really europe you pay in euro you uh you go to uh h&m and you go

00:23:58.000 to uh to all these stores there's great restaurants uh everything since i was there in 91 i was there in

00:24:06.080 91 too and and i i rediscovered the city after 30 years it doesn't uh make me younger and um it's

00:24:17.600 fabulous there's beautiful restaurants there's all kinds of things uh but uh but you see i was at my

00:24:25.680 hotel for example i saw nato soldiers there were people from denmark and uh uh denmark and poland

00:24:34.080 and they were actually meeting canadian soldiers at the base just outside the the city so you see these

00:24:41.040 signs uh in you know you you could you see that you see also stores that are are closing like very

00:24:50.080 like the the very expensive stores because the russians who used to go there and a lot of very rich

00:24:57.040 russians used to uh live in riga and spend a lot of time in riga now they're not there anymore so their

00:25:03.760 money is not there anymore and so it's it's harder for these uh uh luxury stores to to survive so so

00:25:13.280 these stores could close a lot of houses are in the market right now because russians who used to 1.00

00:25:20.640 have a permit to live there a residency permit have lost their residency permit so uh you see it in the

00:25:28.320 economy you can feel it uh cost of living i think the inflation in in uh in latvia is 21 percent it's

00:25:36.560 really really high so uh you see that there's changes and of course you know history has taught

00:25:43.680 them that uh they're never totally secure that uh the their border is with russia and belorussia and

00:25:51.200 it's very fragile the same thing in uh in georgia vladimir putin has definitely shown that he wants to

00:26:00.320 get the band back together he wants to have a russian empire much like the old ussr 0.95

00:26:09.120 as a politician a former politician a recovering politician that you are paul um and as a journalist

00:26:17.440 someone who has lived in these places visited uh who's watched all of this closely you've got a

00:26:24.320 unique perspective having been on both sides most of us just stay on one side or the other have

00:26:32.000 politicians in the west whether it's canada or elsewhere have we taken that threat of putin's

00:26:39.600 expansionist desires seriously over the years i'm not just talking about since the war started but

00:26:45.920 you know he signaled this for a long time even before his invasion of crimea he he has invaded

00:26:54.800 many places over the years did we take that threat of putin wanting to get the band back together

00:27:01.280 seriously enough no i think we closed our eyes we didn't want to see it was there all was there

00:27:09.680 it was there uh they you know remember in 2014 uh the russian army uh took control via some militia

00:27:21.280 of the donbas and took uh took over crimea um it was there it was just in front of our eyes and we uh

00:27:30.000 and some some people were screaming very loud what we didn't want to hear and now that's where we are and

00:27:37.280 um it's when we were faced with the this surreal invasion that ultimately uh the west reacted it's

00:27:50.800 never too late but uh maybe maybe things could have been done earlier on but i guess the west nato

00:28:01.600 the european union really have to be pushed to finally react and act and the good thing is that

00:28:11.200 contrary to what putin hoped uh there all these countries got together they didn't uh they didn't

00:28:19.920 divide they stayed together and they're stronger than ever and that's uh that's uh really revealing and

00:28:27.600 it's uh it's it's it's very precious for ukraine do you think that western europe is

00:28:36.480 is really woken up on this though i i think ukraine should have been a member of nato years ago and i

00:28:45.360 spoke to canada's former for uh defense minister peter mckay about his memories of being at a nato meeting i

00:28:54.000 i forget which one it was or where it was but ukraine's membership was up for a vote and it was

00:29:00.720 sarkozy then president france and merkel from germany speaking out against it they said they

00:29:09.120 did not want this i mean there's a a myth out there that says putin only invaded russia because

00:29:14.880 he didn't want a nato country on his border well latvia lithuania are members turkey has been a member

00:29:22.480 for decades they're all on russia's border so i don't believe that but you know that they these

00:29:29.200 powerful central european countries france and germany definitively did not want ukraine to be

00:29:36.560 part of nato they they they didn't want to to bother putin do you think that's changed now

00:29:45.120 well i think at that time they they thought they could negotiate with putin they could make deals with

00:29:50.400 putin and uh it made sense that there was a buffer zone that ukraine should be the buffer zone logically

00:29:59.360 but they thought they could negotiate with putin uh merkel signed deals on gas

00:30:07.760 to and thinking that the deal she would have uh with uh with russian gas and and uh germany would send

00:30:17.200 uh different uh different things material to to uh to russia uh that would that would do the job and

00:30:26.240 and and they could work with him but now we realize it's obvious you cannot work with putin you cannot

00:30:32.880 sign deals with putin actually in russia uh right now unfortunately the idea of compromising is a sign of

00:30:41.520 weakness and so um now i think the the west get it but um but it took and and it's it's it's of course uh

00:30:55.360 i understand that the they they hope that they could um that they could uh they could uh they could

00:31:02.880 try to find compromise with with russia because that's that's the logical way to 1.00

00:31:09.440 to um to to go to go ahead in western democracies you know and to progress but it doesn't work like

00:31:17.200 that in um in a country that is uh that has a logic of an empire and now we we see the reality and we see

00:31:27.360 how it is and that that's why after after that that that whole trip that that whole trip i i i believe

00:31:33.920 that uh the only way out is to be very resolute and to support ukraine until the end and uh there's

00:31:42.640 no compromise to do with putin until the russian army is out of this territory out of ukraine and out of

00:31:52.320 georgia too there is overwhelming support in my experience in canada less so in the united states

00:32:01.600 but overwhelming support for ukraine but there is a a small and vocal group of people

00:32:09.360 um throughout the western world not just in canada in the u.s but throughout the western world

00:32:15.520 who believe that putin's right that russia is uh in the right that ukraine is corrupt uh or if they

00:32:24.400 don't support putin they just believe that ukraine and in zelensky are corrupt i'll ask you a follow-up

00:32:32.080 about ukraine and corruption and what you've seen in a moment but does it surprise you how many people

00:32:38.320 in western countries support putin i don't know what to say uh i really don't know what to say i guess

00:32:50.000 you know there's there's people on both sides all the time uh everybody is free to have their own opinion

00:32:57.120 and uh it's uh it but but i think that uh if if if if putin goes ahead the we we permit him to

00:33:14.720 it we we permit to him to to continue to destabilize europe and to destabilize

00:33:20.720 you know places like south carcassus and and the rest of the world and it's it's not a good idea

00:33:29.600 have what's your experience on the issue of corruption in in ukraine you spoke earlier about how

00:33:38.400 in the 90s as things opened up it became incredibly corrupt and and i'm sure that was the deal

00:33:45.440 everywhere um but there is this persistent narrative that i think is pushed by russian disinformation

00:33:53.280 that um ukraine is just a money laundering operation that it's uh you know the entire

00:34:00.560 government's corrupt it's zelensky's corrupt did you hear about any of that from people in ukraine have

00:34:08.320 you seen anything uh that would support those views in your travels or do you think as i do

00:34:15.280 that this is just simply uh russian disinformation propaganda uh well corruption is is not only in

00:34:25.440 uh in ukraine it's uh it's in russia too big time um but um yeah i think that's not the point i mean

00:34:34.240 yeah there's there's a lot of in in ukraine uh there's uh there's a problem with corruption uh but i

00:34:43.760 i guess that right now the essential the most important the priority is to fight uh the russian

00:34:50.160 army and and fight this invasion and and to be uh successful um of course there's progress to be

00:34:58.880 made on that front but right now you know there's a war and i think on the other side on the russian

00:35:07.120 side there's a huge there's a huge problem with corruption it's uh it's giant and um it's uh

00:35:16.880 it's very problematic it's a plutocracy in russia and uh it's uh it it's a very repressive state so

00:35:28.160 corruption yeah there is corruption there is corruption in ukraine but right now that's not

00:35:34.240 the priority at all and hopefully after the war this should be there should be laws and those laws

00:35:41.200 should be applied and uh and i think everybody is aware that uh if they want to to progress they will

00:35:48.000 have to um they they need to have a state of law they have to uh they they have to straighten their

00:35:55.600 their legal their their legal system uh but but right now this is not a priority the priority is to fight

00:36:03.040 the war if you have not read uh polar robotize uh series back to the ussr national post yet i

00:36:11.200 encourage you to do so you can find it online at nationalpost.com um paul i i want you to tell me

00:36:18.880 the thing that shocked you the most that pleased you the most that saddened you the most when you were

00:36:23.920 there um let's start with what what surprised you on your return what's something that pops out when i say

00:36:31.040 after 25 30 years away what surprised you when you went back i think it's the youth the young people

00:36:41.600 they're they're amazing they're connected to europe uh they're curious they want a better world

00:36:51.040 and they yeah when i was there uh 30 years ago 25 years ago i mean everything revolved about around

00:36:59.040 moscow it was the metropole it was where things were happening it was a big city now that the young

00:37:05.040 people are turning towards europe and they are connected with europe and they're um they're great

00:37:13.840 and they're full of hope and they're in cafes they work they're curious they go to school they're very

00:37:20.720 resilient i guess that's what surprised me the most the the energy of the youth so i don't end on a sad

00:37:28.480 note i'll ask next what saddened you and then i'll ask you what what what made you smile so first first

00:37:35.680 the sad one so we don't end on a sad note well everything could collapse if this war uh doesn't

00:37:45.840 go their way and that would be very very sad uh so i guess it's the fragility of what they have right now

00:37:54.640 it's so fragile both for ukraine and latvia and georgia i'm guessing exactly for of course ukraine

00:38:03.920 but then afterwards georgia and ledya yeah it's it's uh it holds on nothing it's very very precious

00:38:12.240 what they have and it's they could lose it anytime what made you smile

00:38:17.520 it's the how could i say the um the l'ingeniousity you know like uh the how they are they could see

00:38:31.280 solution in everything they could they find solution in everything and uh they're very creative

00:38:37.440 um and they continue their life despite the sirens despite the missiles once in a while and uh

00:38:47.200 incredibly resistant and resilient so uh yeah that i mean you see situation and you're like wow

00:38:55.680 it really gives you hope all right paul robita thanks so much for the time thanks so much for the

00:39:01.440 the writings fantastic pieces in national post thank you thank you very much my name is brian lily i'm

00:39:07.760 guest host for uh full comment this week full comment is a post media podcast production this

00:39:14.000 episode was produced by andre through if theme music by bryce hall kevin libban is the executive

00:39:19.760 director do remember that you can subscribe to full comment on apple podcast google spotify amazon music

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Full Comment - January 23, 2023

In the former U.S.S.R., ‘everything could collapse’

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