In the wake of the tragic death of former Toronto District School Board Principal Richard Bilksoe, who was found dead of an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound, many are questioning the role of public education in our society. In this episode, we talk to Mike Ramsey, a school trustee with the Waterloo District School board, former chair of that board and former police officer, and member of the Canadian Armed Forces.
00:07:51.240I was the only person of color on the board at the time since the, the election.
00:07:56.800There are two, two more persons of color that were elected.
00:07:59.580But last year, that was the situation.
00:08:02.560And, you know, it's, I, the easiest thing to do is to refer to like how things are now, is that I just say the Ontario NDP affiliated trustees.
00:08:17.260That's what I was up against last year.
00:08:18.700And that's what I'm up against this year.
00:08:22.020And they, they don't see themselves, in the words of John McWhorter, they don't see themselves as, as having opinions.
00:08:29.700You know, they're arguing from a gospel, like, and, and, and, and so if you don't agree with them, they're in there, that's where the problems start to rise.
00:08:42.740So with regard to critical race theory, and there was full denial that it is being taught, but there was a strenuous defense of critical race theory, that it should be taught, even though it wasn't being taught.
00:08:57.080That was the argument that they were trying to make.
00:08:59.580I disagreed, having been on the board, and I've seen students of all backgrounds, and I think one of the things that was, is being ignored, that is, at the end of the day, you know what, it comes down to economics.
00:09:16.840And so we have students of all backgrounds, that there are some, there are poverty issues.
00:09:25.660What most of my colleagues wants to support, and continue supporting, is that they should pick winners and losers out of people that are stricken with poverty.
00:09:37.680So give a hand up, based on, on race, which does not do well in terms of people coming together, and, you know, like, growing up in the neighborhood.
00:09:53.720Okay, why should I, if I am black, get something handed to me, because of my economic situation, whilst my next door neighbor, who's white, can't access that.
00:10:07.940Did they not understand the decades of evidence that the number one and two predictors of outcomes for education are economics and parental involvement?
00:10:22.940That is, well, you know what, it comes down to evidence is what they say the evidence is, okay?
00:10:32.820So if you disagree, then you're punished.
00:10:38.180And it brings me to the point where the Kojo Institute, for example, I have experience with them in terms of, in 2019, they, Kiki Ojo Thompson conducted a workshop at our board.
00:10:52.800And just for people who don't know the full story, you'll hear a bunch about the Kojo Institute in a moment when we're talking about Richard Bilxo.
00:11:02.140They were the company, and Kiki Ojo Thompson was the facilitator running the seminar that Richard Bilxo and his family said, and the Workplace Safety Insurance Board said, led to him being bullied at work.
00:11:18.560So you had experience with them as well, previously.
00:11:24.660Kiki, the Kojo Institute, conducted a workshop, lack of a better word, at our board in 2019, I believe it was.
00:11:32.900And it was with a group of what we call system leaders.
00:11:35.180So it's basically principals, vice principals, managers, and so forth.
00:11:39.780And I first came to understand what her approach was in terms of, she was having a discussion with respect to the use of the N-word in schools, in school settings.
00:11:53.800And one of her administrators stood up and asked the question that, okay, well, how do you handle when racialized students are themselves using the N-word?
00:12:05.520And her response was not word for word, not verbatim, but was to chastise the principal, or whoever it was.
00:12:16.840I don't know if it was the vice principal or principal, but the administrator, to chastise that administrator in front of all his peers.
00:12:24.260I regret seeing what happened to my friend, Richard Billscoe, and I'll tell you a little bit more about how we came to know each other.
00:12:33.620But I regret now knowing what happened with Richard, I regret not having stood up at that event back in 2019 and to challenge the assertions that she was making.
00:12:49.260And she went on from there and obviously received quite a number of contracts, and it seems like decision makers were competing with each other to praise her work, to praise her for insulting them.
00:13:31.280It should not be accepted in any form, but it seemed like there was a tacit endorsement that, okay, if black students are doing it, it's okay.
00:14:09.260That would be a very good question for Ms. Thompson, because that seems to be the narrative, you know?
00:14:16.440You mentioned that you spoke against critical race theory at a board meeting.
00:14:23.860When you didn't think it should be taught, some of your colleagues thought it should be, there has been complete denials that it's ever shown up in Ontario schools.
00:14:35.580And then myself and other journalists get the material sent to us.
00:14:40.040And there very much is a push to get critical race theory taught in our schools.
00:14:47.300What do you see critical race theory as and why are you opposed to it?
00:14:50.140Well, you know what, I just look at it as, it's, the only way to describe it is that it's just, it's looking at black people as, I believe, as failures.
00:15:46.400Well, since you mentioned John McWhorter earlier, I'll mention him now.
00:15:50.320And for people that don't read him, you really should.
00:15:53.420He, he, Professor McWhorter has argued that it is not a movement that helps black students.
00:16:00.220It is very much like you, a belief that this is not something that's going to assist students.
00:16:07.660But it appears that a good number of people, to me, it's about a specific ideology that has little to do with race, but uses race.
00:16:18.840When I see the material that is sent to me, that is taught to either administrators or students, I think this is extreme left-wing political material, using race to push the ideology.
00:17:13.320I would suggest, I don't have the stats in front of me, but I do know I saw some stats before,
00:17:17.840that most of the blacks in Canada are immigrants that chose to come here, okay, and not willingly chose to come here.
00:17:29.800And I think what many of us are finding out, that we come here for a better life,
00:17:36.780and many of the people that we as immigrants ran away from are also here.
00:17:42.140They also came in under the same rules.
00:17:43.680And I would suggest that they're the ones that are pushing this race thing.
00:17:49.160They don't want the races getting along.
00:17:52.400And that's why they need to have, like, continuously have victims, because that's how these companies survive.
00:18:01.080Unfortunately, you know, it takes away and it distracts from the real, some of the real issues that confront us.
00:18:09.160And I'm not saying that we don't have issues about race, but you know what?
00:18:14.520I think, again, inspired by John McCorder, the best way to describe these DEI consultants is that they're fighting a battle that's already been won.
00:18:25.500They're fighting battles from the 1960s.
00:18:41.680I was at a conference last weekend with an urban student in the World Summit that he was holding about post-pandemic learning.
00:18:51.420And there was a gentleman, a professional engineer, Mr. Terry Branch, and he was talking about the value of mentorship, for example.
00:18:59.300Those are all positive things that actually, you know what?
00:19:03.580It doesn't seem to be welcome in our school system because of the way the Ontario Affiliated Trustees on boards.
00:19:13.620Those things are shut out because that's too positive.
00:19:16.580You know, mentorship and actually seeing someone like you in a role that can actually discuss the obstacles and how they navigated around those obstacles.
00:19:26.900Instead of telling kids, well, okay, everything you do, anything that someone does to you that's negative, it's because you're black.
00:19:34.720I reject that because that is not the case.
00:19:37.200I've sat on the discipline committee at our board for the majority of my years of service, and I continue to serve on that committee.
00:19:45.680And it doesn't hold up in terms of what I see coming through the discipline committee and the things that will start a discipline process, for example.
00:19:58.340Not just for black kids, for all kids.
00:20:00.280And when you come right down to the common denominator, most of all these behaviors and so forth has nothing to do with race.
00:20:08.060I can tell you that just from my experience sitting on the discipline committee.
00:20:11.780So I was shocked when all these other things started to get imported and parents are being misled to believe that mental health challenges has nothing to do with someone's or their child's behavior.
00:20:29.220The child is being sanctioned because of race.
00:20:32.100And that may very well be the case in a very small amount of situations, but it certainly isn't to the extent that the Kiki Ojo Thompsons of the world would like us to believe.
00:20:47.660Let's talk about your friend, Richard.
00:20:54.900He was a man who dedicated a lot of his life to education, including racialized Canadians, new immigrants, people who were not successful at first in life in trying to get their diploma because he spent a lot of time at the adult high school helping people achieve success.
00:21:17.840So tell me what you know about Richard, how you came to know him.
00:21:20.960How I came to know Richard, when I was going through my challenges last year with the Code of Conduct, where I was put out of the board for three months for, you know, talking about critical race theory and how it's not a good thing or a good fit for our board.
00:21:36.980And when I was sanctioned, it was received widespread attention in the media across Ontario and I guess across Canada because I heard from people across Canada.
00:21:45.640And Richard reached out, I never knew him before, this was last year.
00:21:49.060So I've only known him for about a year and a half and he reached out and we had quite a number of conversations where he was saying, hey, look, you know, basically the same thing happened to me where you are challenging a narrative actually with evidence.
00:22:06.580And he shared about his time teaching in Buffalo.
00:22:11.780So he was speaking from a place where he fully understood the American system of education and what goes on in the United States.
00:22:21.100And I've listened to the audio of the interview.
00:24:02.640And it keeps coming back in terms of the money that can be made from it.
00:24:11.680You know, I believe, just my opinion, that is one of the motivators.
00:24:15.800Right now, I'm trying to find out from our board from about two weeks ago.
00:24:21.760So I put in a request just to find out how much we paid out, not just to Ojo Thompson, but to other consulting firms.
00:24:30.600And this was on the heels of a motion being defeated at the board, at our board meeting back in May or June, where I was asking for the board to support the director bringing a report for any contracts that pays over $250 or $300 an hour, something like that, to the board to keep a surprise.
00:24:50.160So we know where the spending is happening, and what is it about, and what are these workshops.
00:24:55.800Thankfully, with Bill 98 and the proclamation of some issues to do with PD days or professional activity days, I think Minister Lecce has twigged to what is going on with these PA days.
00:25:15.060So now boards are required, by law, to post the PA day activities, who the speakers are, and all those things, so that parents have access to that at least, I think it's 10 or 14 days prior to the event.
00:25:28.440That is a step in the right direction, for example.
00:25:31.440Most of us didn't know that groups like the Cocho Institute and others were holding these workshops.
00:25:38.000And so I've listened to the audio as well.
00:25:40.360I've read transcripts of what happened.
00:25:42.940I've read the Toronto Star's coverage claiming that all the people saying Cocho Institute acted improperly or just false.
00:25:54.440That's not how I hear what happened there.
00:25:57.900Richard Bilks, though, disputed the idea that Canada was more racist than the United States, said it would do a disservice to our learners, meaning the students, if we went into the classroom and told them that.
00:26:10.440He was effectively labeled a white supremacist after that, wasn't he?
00:26:20.240I'm not sure if it will come as a surprise to you that I was also labeled as a white supremacist.
00:26:25.040I was called a white supremacist by many of the people that my colleagues associate with and follow and receive at the board courteously, as opposed to other parents coming to ask reasonable questions of the board.
00:26:46.920And I think we can't be afraid of that kind of vitriol that's thrown at us.
00:26:56.680I think we just need to understand that we're going to have to steal ourselves to being called those names and just move on from there, really.
00:27:06.340I've been called, in my case, in addition to being called a white supremacist, I was called an Uncle Tom, an Uncle Clarence, and all these things that are designed to get you to shut up so that they can carry on with their ideology and the practice of their religion.
00:27:50.060And now, with this latest complaint, I think it points to my colleagues on the board, the Ontario New Democratic Party-affiliated trustees, refusing to accept the results of the 2022 election.
00:28:08.240And they threw everything but the kitchen sink during the election campaign.
00:28:43.480And you can tell us that when we come back after this quick break.
00:28:46.400Martin Luther King famously said he had a dream that one day his four young children would be judged by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin.
00:28:56.740And from what you're telling me, Mike, it sounds like people are turning their back on Martin Luther King's vision.
00:29:05.640And they want to judge people first based on the color of their skin.
00:29:11.280And it's not the folks who are described as racist doing that the most.
00:29:16.180It's the people who say they're fighting racism.
00:29:21.080You know, I look at what I totally agree with the viewpoints of Martin Luther King.
00:29:28.160And, you know, if you look at the foundation that he set, and instead of the, instead of persons trying to build on that foundation, because as I mentioned about what John McWord has said, they're fighting racism in the 60s.
00:30:04.180So they always have to have that bogeyman about racism and so forth.
00:30:10.980And without looking at the new challenges that students, all students are facing, all students in the school building, the mental health challenges that has been revealed,
00:30:23.600or pushed since COVID, you know, like the impact of COVID.
00:30:29.740So I mentioned about the conference on the weekend there, a couple weekends ago.
00:31:07.980And one of the things that I met very briefly, Minister Lecce at Queen's Park back in February of this year, I was able to chat with him briefly.
00:31:19.120And what I came away from the discussion with was that he was fully committed to finding solutions.
00:31:26.120He said he's a solutions-based person.
00:31:28.640He's looking for solutions to the issues.
00:31:32.220And so when I saw when Bill 98 was tabled, I go, wow, you know what?
00:31:39.220He is listening because parents have a lot of concerns.
00:31:43.020Now, in Bill 98, these policies and these laws doesn't jump off the wall and enforce themselves.
00:31:50.960And I think the next step, obviously, is that the minister is going to have to take a close look and to say, well, you know what?
00:31:57.980I need to make sure that there are prescriptive policies and regulations that follow up on these laws.
00:32:04.880If not, left-wing boards are going to find a way around this and to still frustrate parents.
00:32:11.900To the extent that the law talks about refocusing on student learning achievement, very impressed with that.
00:32:18.100But again, what happens to the translation in the bureaucracy?
00:32:23.280And I think that's where it has to become very prescriptive.
00:32:26.820If not, I almost want to predict that boards will continue to operate as if Bill 98 does not exist.
00:32:36.160And the politics will be injected into the classroom further.
00:32:39.540I don't think most parents send their kids to school to be politicized.
00:32:44.780I think they send them for an education.
00:32:46.920Well, you know, the other thing, Ryan, as you mentioned that about parents, is that what I'm learning, and I'm trying to get the actual figures, but I consider this to be a fairly reliable source.
00:32:56.680A parent that is involved with the equivalent to homeschooling told me that there are over 4,000 kids in Waterloo Region alone that are doing the equivalent to homeschooling.
00:33:11.720And they saw a bunch of parents getting together, forming what they call pods, educating their kids in church basements.
00:33:18.960Because, and in some cases, the parents and their kids are walking right by a public school, where it wouldn't cost them a penny because they've already paid for it in their taxes, to pay to have their kids educated in the church basement.
00:33:33.480Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with church basements, because many schools started in church basement back in the day.
00:33:38.660So saying that is that that points to us having a problem, there's a problem with confidence in what is being delivered.
00:33:48.380And this is where the ministry, this focus on or wanting to refocus education, if they're very serious about it, then the prescriptive regulations are going to come from Bill 98.
00:34:00.660If not, parents will continue to abandon the school system.
00:34:04.180I'm pretty sure the minister would probably have the numbers of every kid in Waterloo Region that's elementary school or high school age in Waterloo Region and could actually tell the numbers in terms of how many kids are enrolled, because the funding follows the kids.
00:34:20.620So if they're not enrolled in a public or Catholic school, the money doesn't flow.
00:35:01.900He is referred to as an example of upholding white supremacy and resisting what must be unlearned or learned, according to the Kojo Institute.
00:36:28.800Well, it seems like they should be standing up for their employees or the people that they represent, rather than standing up for people who, according to the Workplace Safety Insurance Board of Ontario, were engaged in bullying.
00:36:50.320I've had a number of employees complain to me as to how they were treated in some of these workshops on equity, not necessarily run by Kojo Institute, but other DEI consultants that would have been hired.
00:37:08.720And basically, they were quietly taking this on and said, look, you know, if you want to protect your career, please don't raise that again.
00:37:19.140That's the message that they're receiving.
00:37:20.940So, boards are discouraging anyone from, I would say, anecdotally, from coming forward to put their concerns.
00:37:59.660And, again, that's why I'm saying I'm not surprised.
00:38:02.400I just learned this morning from a podcast from, I love to say, Jonathan Kaye had a podcast, and I listened to it.
00:38:11.440And he was talking about some stuff down in Sarnia and the Kojo Institute.
00:38:15.720And the city councillor down there is actually saying that social service agencies are down there looking for letters of support for Kojo Institute to actually endorse the behaviour of Kojo Institute.
00:38:35.520What can parents do, then, to keep the politics out of their classroom?
00:38:45.060I mean, you supported a petition that said there must be a path to reconciliation with Indigenous Canadians that doesn't include shaming and guilting students for things they personally didn't do.
00:39:03.700So, that was part of why you were chastised.
00:39:06.700That was part of the complaint last year.
00:39:09.680Yeah, that was part of the complaint that got you censured.
00:39:11.920So, what can parents actually do, parents and grandparents who are concerned about what's going on in their schools?
00:39:19.260Well, I'll tell you what a couple of my colleagues and myself have encouraged and we've been engaging with parents from all backgrounds is to say that they need to get their message to Minister Lecce because he's the one with the power to make things happen.
00:39:38.400We have Bill 98 and what I've been encouraging parents, but in line with Minister Lecce's commitment to finding solutions, we now have Bill 98 and I've been encouraging parents to engage with him and to write to him and to share their concerns and to give to him the concrete examples that they've been giving to me and a couple of my other colleagues that are willing to listen.
00:40:03.180I'm not saying everything that they come to me with is 100% like, you know, 100% correct or anything like that, but they do have valid concerns.
00:40:14.020They do have a right to know what's going on, like when they send their kids to school, that their kids are not going to be coming home crying.
00:40:21.340They do have to, they need to have that kind of confidence in the school system.
00:40:26.100And this is running amok with the ideology and bowing down to this religion that has been adopted by activist boards.
00:41:25.120And that's how they view, they view you.
00:41:27.600So basically, unless you agree 100% with what they're doing, you're going to have a problem.
00:41:35.680That's basically what it comes down to.
00:41:37.300And they weaponize codes of conduct to enforce this.
00:41:42.120In real religion, you might be tossed out of your church or other church members don't talk to you.
00:41:48.920Well, the equivalent of that is going on at the board right now.
00:41:53.300They don't even feel like they should even tolerate you, even though you were sent there by voters, the same voters that sent them there.
00:42:01.380It's an interesting place that education is at.
00:42:07.900And perhaps I'm glad that my kids are out of that part of the school system at this point, because things that I was seeing 10 years ago appear to have only gotten worse, Mike.
00:42:19.400And I think this current government, who I support, you know, for nothing else other than the fact also that the alternative is saying the government is going too far.
00:42:42.160And that's with the evidence that probably, what, 4,000 kids in Waterloo Region alone are walking past schools on a daily basis, going to be educated in pods.