Full Comment - Inside Canadian school boards, ‘if you disagree…you’re punished’

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00:00:50.500 What is being taught in our schools across the country?

00:00:54.420 It's always a topic of hot conversation,

00:00:56.460 and it's always something where people will look back on their own day and say that they had it better.

00:01:01.740 But lately, there has been serious conversation about whether we're focused on the right things.

00:01:08.220 Are we focusing enough on the basic skills that students need to learn in their education?

00:01:13.560 Are we focused on other issues, social issues, whether it's racism, whether it's being woke,

00:01:20.080 as they say, are they being taught that they are proper settler colonial students, or are they not being shamed enough?

00:01:28.300 These are real conversations that people have about the school system and governments struggle with them as much as parents.

00:01:35.480 But in the politicized world of public education, whether it's here in Ontario or elsewhere across the country,

00:01:41.780 having the wrong opinion can get you in trouble.

00:01:44.320 By now, you may have heard the story of Richard Bilksoe.

00:01:47.020 He's a retired Toronto District School Board principal who recently took his own life.

00:01:54.140 Why?

00:01:54.880 Well, the allegation from his family, from his friends, is that he was bullied during a diversity, equity, and inclusion workshop.

00:02:01.240 Hi, I'm Brian Lilly.

00:02:02.320 This is the Full Comment Podcast.

00:02:03.840 And today, we're going to take a look at what's going on inside the education system.

00:02:08.760 We'll talk about Richard Bilksoe's story, but we'll also talk to someone who is dealing with their own issue,

00:02:14.320 has their own story in terms of how our education system is focused more on social issues

00:02:21.260 that oftentimes don't really belong in the classroom than they are on teaching kids how to read, how to write,

00:02:29.020 how to do math, how to do science, how to prepare for their life after school.

00:02:33.840 Before we get to our next guest, though, I do want to remind you that you can and should subscribe to Full Comment

00:02:38.800 on whatever device or app you're listening to us on right now, hit that subscribe button, leave a review,

00:02:45.000 share this on social media while you still can, and let people know about the interesting and distinct conversations that we have.

00:02:53.200 Our next guest today is Mike Ramsey.

00:02:55.440 He is a school trustee with the Waterloo District School Board, former chair of that board, former police officer,

00:03:02.020 and member of the Canadian Armed Forces.

00:03:05.020 He's also being, well, he's been censured by his board before, and people want to do it again now

00:03:11.800 because he doesn't have the right opinions.

00:03:14.220 He's also a friend of Richard Bilksoe and joins me now.

00:03:18.080 Mike, thanks for the time.

00:03:19.060 Thank you for having me on, Brian.

00:03:21.380 Appreciate it.

00:03:21.920 I want to talk to you about Richard's story, and I want to hear your thoughts on this great tragedy,

00:03:29.200 and first off, my condolences for your loss.

00:03:32.420 But let's tell people your story because that will help inform an understanding of Richard

00:03:39.360 and help people understand that the idea that political agendas in the school system

00:03:48.780 is not some made-up far-right talking point, like some are saying in the wake of Richard's story coming out.

00:03:56.360 So tell me a bit about you, and how long have you been on the Waterloo Region District School Board,

00:04:03.360 and what brought you there?

00:04:05.480 You know, very good question and points that you're highlighting.

00:04:10.980 I started on the board in 1989, and it was during my tenure as a police officer with Waterloo Regional Police.

00:04:20.740 And the platform I ran on in the 1988 election, I'm dating myself here,

00:04:28.420 was whether or not there was a drug problem in our schools that was being ignored.

00:04:34.520 And it was just based on certain things or activities that I saw while I walked the beat in downtown Kitchener,

00:04:43.680 and we had some inner-city, we still have some inner-city high schools where I saw certain activities.

00:04:49.940 And so I ran on that platform.

00:04:52.960 I wasn't, I came within 288 votes of being elected.

00:04:58.920 And then right after the election, shortly after the election,

00:05:01.800 one of the trustees that were elected stepped down for an appointment in Mr. Mulroney's government,

00:05:08.580 Prime Minister Mulroney, dating myself again.

00:05:10.520 And so I was appointed to fill that vacancy.

00:05:14.380 And I have been, I was re-elected since then.

00:05:18.280 And then in 94, 1994, I was defeated.

00:05:22.300 I didn't run in the 97 election.

00:05:25.460 And then I ran again for office in 2000 and have been re-elected since.

00:05:29.220 So I've been serving in this life on the board since 2000.

00:05:33.160 So for 20, 23 years.

00:05:35.100 And you've probably seen a lot of changes in education in that time.

00:05:41.300 Has the politics changed around the board table and in who's driving the agendas?

00:05:47.800 Again, that's a very good question.

00:05:49.320 You know, in terms of the politics, there was always some members of the board that would be considered conservative

00:05:57.800 and some more to the left in their politics, like mostly NDP.

00:06:04.860 But back, quite a number of years back, it was a different dynamic because you could actually have respectful discussions.

00:06:14.540 So you could have discussions where no one's trying to shut anyone down or not wanting to hear a viewpoint.

00:06:21.380 In fact, one of my dear friends, I've since passed, he could be considered to be one of the left trustees to the left in their politics.

00:06:33.440 And we would have some heavy-duty discussions at the board table.

00:06:39.020 And after that board meeting, we'd go out for a pint and chit-chat.

00:06:42.840 And that's the kind of stuff because, you know, we were, we might have different viewpoints,

00:06:47.620 but we're there for the main thing, which is student learning and achievement.

00:06:51.820 And nothing that was fully recognized.

00:06:53.320 And that is what now is missing with the importation of identity politics into our schools.

00:07:03.900 And, you know what, it's, it's something that was just a gradual thing that I think escalated under the cover of COVID.

00:07:14.780 And so, post-COVID.

00:07:16.660 Let's talk about identity politics there, because when you were censured and removed for, what was it, four months in 2022.

00:07:27.360 Yeah, for three months, yes, I was removed.

00:07:29.780 Oh, for three months.

00:07:30.520 Part of the reason, and I've got the, the court filings in front of me, you fought to have this made public.

00:07:39.100 Yes.

00:07:39.980 One of the reasons was you were critical of some of the teaching on race.

00:07:43.620 I believe it was critical race theory as well.

00:07:45.540 Correct.

00:07:45.980 And, and you were chastised for that.

00:07:48.040 Yes. 0.98

00:07:49.080 You're the only black man. 0.97

00:07:50.340 You're on the board.

00:07:51.240 I was the only person of color on the board at the time since the, the election.

00:07:56.800 There are two, two more persons of color that were elected.

00:07:59.580 But last year, that was the situation.

00:08:02.560 And, you know, it's, I, the easiest thing to do is to refer to like how things are now, is that I just say the Ontario NDP affiliated trustees.

00:08:15.980 That's what I'm up against.

00:08:17.260 That's what I was up against last year.

00:08:18.700 And that's what I'm up against this year.

00:08:22.020 And they, they don't see themselves, in the words of John McWhorter, they don't see themselves as, as having opinions.

00:08:29.700 You know, they're arguing from a gospel, like, and, and, and, and so if you don't agree with them, they're in there, that's where the problems start to rise.

00:08:42.740 So with regard to critical race theory, and there was full denial that it is being taught, but there was a strenuous defense of critical race theory, that it should be taught, even though it wasn't being taught.

00:08:57.080 That was the argument that they were trying to make.

00:08:59.580 I disagreed, having been on the board, and I've seen students of all backgrounds, and I think one of the things that was, is being ignored, that is, at the end of the day, you know what, it comes down to economics.

00:09:16.840 And so we have students of all backgrounds, that there are some, there are poverty issues.

00:09:25.660 What most of my colleagues wants to support, and continue supporting, is that they should pick winners and losers out of people that are stricken with poverty.

00:09:37.680 So give a hand up, based on, on race, which does not do well in terms of people coming together, and, you know, like, growing up in the neighborhood.

00:09:53.720 Okay, why should I, if I am black, get something handed to me, because of my economic situation, whilst my next door neighbor, who's white, can't access that.

00:10:05.060 And so, you know...

00:10:07.940 Did they not understand the decades of evidence that the number one and two predictors of outcomes for education are economics and parental involvement?

00:10:22.940 That is, well, you know what, it comes down to evidence is what they say the evidence is, okay?

00:10:32.820 So if you disagree, then you're punished.

00:10:38.180 And it brings me to the point where the Kojo Institute, for example, I have experience with them in terms of, in 2019, they, Kiki Ojo Thompson conducted a workshop at our board.

00:10:52.800 And just for people who don't know the full story, you'll hear a bunch about the Kojo Institute in a moment when we're talking about Richard Bilxo.

00:11:02.140 They were the company, and Kiki Ojo Thompson was the facilitator running the seminar that Richard Bilxo and his family said, and the Workplace Safety Insurance Board said, led to him being bullied at work.

00:11:18.560 So you had experience with them as well, previously.

00:11:22.540 Oh, yes.

00:11:24.660 Kiki, the Kojo Institute, conducted a workshop, lack of a better word, at our board in 2019, I believe it was.

00:11:32.900 And it was with a group of what we call system leaders.

00:11:35.180 So it's basically principals, vice principals, managers, and so forth.

00:11:39.780 And I first came to understand what her approach was in terms of, she was having a discussion with respect to the use of the N-word in schools, in school settings.

00:11:53.800 And one of her administrators stood up and asked the question that, okay, well, how do you handle when racialized students are themselves using the N-word?

00:12:05.520 And her response was not word for word, not verbatim, but was to chastise the principal, or whoever it was.

00:12:16.840 I don't know if it was the vice principal or principal, but the administrator, to chastise that administrator in front of all his peers.

00:12:24.260 I regret seeing what happened to my friend, Richard Billscoe, and I'll tell you a little bit more about how we came to know each other.

00:12:33.620 But I regret now knowing what happened with Richard, I regret not having stood up at that event back in 2019 and to challenge the assertions that she was making.

00:12:49.260 And she went on from there and obviously received quite a number of contracts, and it seems like decision makers were competing with each other to praise her work, to praise her for insulting them.

00:13:05.480 It was unbelievable.

00:13:06.740 So was her view that the N-word should never be used, but if racialized students are using it, that's good? 1.00

00:13:13.860 Well, that's basically the inference that was being drawn from how she came on to the administrator, yes.

00:13:22.180 I'm not sure that it's a word that administrators or teachers should be welcoming, encouraging, or even accepting in school.

00:13:30.720 Exactly.

00:13:31.280 It should not be accepted in any form, but it seemed like there was a tacit endorsement that, okay, if black students are doing it, it's okay. 0.99

00:13:39.880 But if it has anything...

00:13:42.920 Well, can an Asian student do it then? 1.00

00:13:44.760 Well, and that's where the line seems to be drawn against anyone.

00:13:47.820 What about a South Asian student?

00:13:49.580 Good question.

00:13:50.740 And I think this is where the administrator was going, right, with the question before he was shut down.

00:13:57.720 I walk the streets of Toronto, I hear kids using this all the time.

00:14:02.040 Yes.

00:14:02.300 And so is there a pigment test to decide when it can and can't be used?

00:14:08.680 Well, you know what?

00:14:09.260 That would be a very good question for Ms. Thompson, because that seems to be the narrative, you know?

00:14:16.440 You mentioned that you spoke against critical race theory at a board meeting.

00:14:23.860 When you didn't think it should be taught, some of your colleagues thought it should be, there has been complete denials that it's ever shown up in Ontario schools.

00:14:35.580 And then myself and other journalists get the material sent to us.

00:14:40.040 And there very much is a push to get critical race theory taught in our schools.

00:14:45.600 Why are you opposed to it?

00:14:47.300 What do you see critical race theory as and why are you opposed to it?

00:14:50.140 Well, you know what, I just look at it as, it's, the only way to describe it is that it's just, it's looking at black people as, I believe, as failures.

00:15:06.560 Like you always need a hand up.

00:15:08.540 And there are a lot of students.

00:15:10.160 I went through the school system.

00:15:11.960 Okay.

00:15:12.180 I went through the school system.

00:15:13.420 I attended Eric Hoffman Public School.

00:15:19.060 It's now called Hillside because the name Eric Hoffman has been canceled.

00:15:24.060 That's a discussion for another day, perhaps.

00:15:26.740 And so, you know, at the end of the day, I just look at it as how we're being treated like kids.

00:15:34.820 And there are actually consultants out there telling administrators and decision makers that we ought to be treated like kids.

00:15:42.260 And I find that repulsive.

00:15:46.400 Well, since you mentioned John McWhorter earlier, I'll mention him now.

00:15:50.320 And for people that don't read him, you really should.

00:15:53.420 He, he, Professor McWhorter has argued that it is not a movement that helps black students.

00:16:00.220 It is very much like you, a belief that this is not something that's going to assist students.

00:16:07.660 But it appears that a good number of people, to me, it's about a specific ideology that has little to do with race, but uses race.

00:16:18.840 When I see the material that is sent to me, that is taught to either administrators or students, I think this is extreme left-wing political material, using race to push the ideology.

00:16:34.300 There's no other way to describe it.

00:16:38.400 There's full denial on the part of many of my colleagues that this is actually happening in their schools.

00:16:44.100 But as you mentioned, the evidence is there.

00:16:47.040 And there's no denial of the evidence that is there, that this is actually happening.

00:16:51.680 And my other issue with it is it's almost always imported from the United States and uses American examples.

00:17:02.860 And Canada's black population is vastly different.

00:17:06.020 That is correct.

00:17:07.260 Than the United States in terms of their history.

00:17:11.600 I would agree with you on that.

00:17:13.320 I would suggest, I don't have the stats in front of me, but I do know I saw some stats before,

00:17:17.840 that most of the blacks in Canada are immigrants that chose to come here, okay, and not willingly chose to come here. 0.67

00:17:29.800 And I think what many of us are finding out, that we come here for a better life,

00:17:36.780 and many of the people that we as immigrants ran away from are also here.

00:17:42.140 They also came in under the same rules.

00:17:43.680 And I would suggest that they're the ones that are pushing this race thing.

00:17:49.160 They don't want the races getting along.

00:17:52.400 And that's why they need to have, like, continuously have victims, because that's how these companies survive.

00:18:01.080 Unfortunately, you know, it takes away and it distracts from the real, some of the real issues that confront us.

00:18:09.160 And I'm not saying that we don't have issues about race, but you know what?

00:18:14.520 I think, again, inspired by John McCorder, the best way to describe these DEI consultants is that they're fighting a battle that's already been won.

00:18:25.500 They're fighting battles from the 1960s.

00:18:28.800 You know what?

00:18:29.180 No one is standing in front of the school doors with armed guards telling you that you can't come in, okay?

00:18:34.760 Like, we're inside the building, so what are some of the things that we can model?

00:18:40.120 Who can we learn from?

00:18:41.680 I was at a conference last weekend with an urban student in the World Summit that he was holding about post-pandemic learning.

00:18:51.420 And there was a gentleman, a professional engineer, Mr. Terry Branch, and he was talking about the value of mentorship, for example.

00:18:59.300 Those are all positive things that actually, you know what?

00:19:03.580 It doesn't seem to be welcome in our school system because of the way the Ontario Affiliated Trustees on boards. 0.58

00:19:13.620 Those things are shut out because that's too positive.

00:19:16.580 You know, mentorship and actually seeing someone like you in a role that can actually discuss the obstacles and how they navigated around those obstacles. 0.80

00:19:26.900 Instead of telling kids, well, okay, everything you do, anything that someone does to you that's negative, it's because you're black. 0.97

00:19:34.720 I reject that because that is not the case.

00:19:37.200 I've sat on the discipline committee at our board for the majority of my years of service, and I continue to serve on that committee.

00:19:45.680 And it doesn't hold up in terms of what I see coming through the discipline committee and the things that will start a discipline process, for example.

00:19:58.340 Not just for black kids, for all kids. 0.53

00:20:00.280 And when you come right down to the common denominator, most of all these behaviors and so forth has nothing to do with race.

00:20:08.060 I can tell you that just from my experience sitting on the discipline committee.

00:20:11.780 So I was shocked when all these other things started to get imported and parents are being misled to believe that mental health challenges has nothing to do with someone's or their child's behavior.

00:20:29.220 The child is being sanctioned because of race.

00:20:32.100 And that may very well be the case in a very small amount of situations, but it certainly isn't to the extent that the Kiki Ojo Thompsons of the world would like us to believe.

00:20:47.660 Let's talk about your friend, Richard.

00:20:49.340 I did not know him.

00:20:50.740 I've read a lot about him since.

00:20:53.480 I've spoken to many of his friends.

00:20:54.900 He was a man who dedicated a lot of his life to education, including racialized Canadians, new immigrants, people who were not successful at first in life in trying to get their diploma because he spent a lot of time at the adult high school helping people achieve success.

00:21:17.840 So tell me what you know about Richard, how you came to know him.

00:21:20.960 How I came to know Richard, when I was going through my challenges last year with the Code of Conduct, where I was put out of the board for three months for, you know, talking about critical race theory and how it's not a good thing or a good fit for our board.

00:21:36.980 And when I was sanctioned, it was received widespread attention in the media across Ontario and I guess across Canada because I heard from people across Canada.

00:21:45.640 And Richard reached out, I never knew him before, this was last year.

00:21:49.060 So I've only known him for about a year and a half and he reached out and we had quite a number of conversations where he was saying, hey, look, you know, basically the same thing happened to me where you are challenging a narrative actually with evidence.

00:22:06.580 And he shared about his time teaching in Buffalo.

00:22:11.780 So he was speaking from a place where he fully understood the American system of education and what goes on in the United States.

00:22:21.100 And I've listened to the audio of the interview.

00:22:24.580 He told me about what took place.

00:22:27.620 And then when I listened to the audio, my heart just bleeds in terms of what he was saying.

00:22:33.960 I could see him saying it because he was telling the truth.

00:22:37.440 It was coming from a place of truth, in my opinion.

00:22:40.700 And so the facilitator of this workshop at the Toronto District School Board, Kiki Odra Thompson,

00:22:45.760 she was making the case that racism is worse if you're black in Canada than in the United States.

00:22:57.740 Richard Bilks so disputed that and said, didn't say there's no racism, didn't say there's no problems,

00:23:04.700 but said we have a more just society in Canada due to the way the education system works, due to the way the health care system works.

00:23:11.540 Do you believe, Richard, do you believe Kiki Odra Thompson on that claim that racism is worse in Canada?

00:23:22.520 I believe Richard 100%.

00:23:24.700 I've never lived in the United States.

00:23:27.500 I've done a lot of reading on the history.

00:23:31.900 And as I mentioned, you know, about what John McWhorter said, they're fighting the racism of the 1960s.

00:23:38.220 Here, it's a totally different setup.

00:23:39.960 And that was not my experience in school.

00:23:43.320 And that was not the experience of kids that I went to school with at Eric Hoffman back in the 70s.

00:23:49.560 So it came as a huge surprise.

00:23:55.700 But as, you know, as Thomas Sowell, another person I read, he says, you know, racism is like ketchup.

00:24:01.580 You can spread it on everything.

00:24:02.640 And it keeps coming back in terms of the money that can be made from it.

00:24:11.680 You know, I believe, just my opinion, that is one of the motivators.

00:24:15.800 Right now, I'm trying to find out from our board from about two weeks ago.

00:24:21.760 So I put in a request just to find out how much we paid out, not just to Ojo Thompson, but to other consulting firms.

00:24:30.600 And this was on the heels of a motion being defeated at the board, at our board meeting back in May or June, where I was asking for the board to support the director bringing a report for any contracts that pays over $250 or $300 an hour, something like that, to the board to keep a surprise.

00:24:50.160 So we know where the spending is happening, and what is it about, and what are these workshops.

00:24:55.800 Thankfully, with Bill 98 and the proclamation of some issues to do with PD days or professional activity days, I think Minister Lecce has twigged to what is going on with these PA days.

00:25:15.060 So now boards are required, by law, to post the PA day activities, who the speakers are, and all those things, so that parents have access to that at least, I think it's 10 or 14 days prior to the event.

00:25:28.440 That is a step in the right direction, for example.

00:25:31.440 Most of us didn't know that groups like the Cocho Institute and others were holding these workshops.

00:25:38.000 And so I've listened to the audio as well.

00:25:40.360 I've read transcripts of what happened.

00:25:42.940 I've read the Toronto Star's coverage claiming that all the people saying Cocho Institute acted improperly or just false.

00:25:54.440 That's not how I hear what happened there.

00:25:57.900 Richard Bilks, though, disputed the idea that Canada was more racist than the United States, said it would do a disservice to our learners, meaning the students, if we went into the classroom and told them that.

00:26:10.440 He was effectively labeled a white supremacist after that, wasn't he?

00:26:17.580 Yes, he was.

00:26:18.480 And you know what?

00:26:20.240 I'm not sure if it will come as a surprise to you that I was also labeled as a white supremacist.

00:26:25.040 I was called a white supremacist by many of the people that my colleagues associate with and follow and receive at the board courteously, as opposed to other parents coming to ask reasonable questions of the board.

00:26:44.920 So that is the mindset.

00:26:46.920 And I think we can't be afraid of that kind of vitriol that's thrown at us.

00:26:56.680 I think we just need to understand that we're going to have to steal ourselves to being called those names and just move on from there, really.

00:27:06.340 I've been called, in my case, in addition to being called a white supremacist, I was called an Uncle Tom, an Uncle Clarence, and all these things that are designed to get you to shut up so that they can carry on with their ideology and the practice of their religion.

00:27:21.300 They can carry on seeking conduits. 0.95

00:27:24.100 You're not the right type of black man is what they're trying to say. 0.98

00:27:27.440 Well, yeah, exactly. 0.99

00:27:28.620 They think I'm the wrong kind of black.

00:27:30.560 And I truly believe that last year, this move with the Code of Conduct was designed in a way to prevent my re-election to the board.

00:27:44.280 That's why I'm viewing it.

00:27:45.720 I ran for re-election.

00:27:47.560 I was re-elected in October 2022.

00:27:50.060 And now, with this latest complaint, I think it points to my colleagues on the board, the Ontario New Democratic Party-affiliated trustees, refusing to accept the results of the 2022 election.

00:28:08.240 And they threw everything but the kitchen sink during the election campaign.

00:28:13.680 I won re-election.

00:28:15.080 And they continue this harassment using frivolous Code of Conduct charges.

00:28:22.540 That has no merit.

00:28:23.680 All right, Mike, we'll get more into your latest issue when we come back.

00:28:30.900 And we'll also talk more about Richard and what parents and voters can do to try and shake up the school boards and how they're operating.

00:28:42.000 Or maybe Bill 98's already done it.

00:28:43.480 And you can tell us that when we come back after this quick break.

00:28:46.400 Martin Luther King famously said he had a dream that one day his four young children would be judged by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin.

00:28:56.740 And from what you're telling me, Mike, it sounds like people are turning their back on Martin Luther King's vision.

00:29:05.640 And they want to judge people first based on the color of their skin.

00:29:11.280 And it's not the folks who are described as racist doing that the most.

00:29:16.180 It's the people who say they're fighting racism.

00:29:19.040 I would agree with that.

00:29:21.080 You know, I look at what I totally agree with the viewpoints of Martin Luther King.

00:29:28.160 And, you know, if you look at the foundation that he set, and instead of the, instead of persons trying to build on that foundation, because as I mentioned about what John McWord has said, they're fighting racism in the 60s.

00:29:45.520 Martin Luther King won that battle.

00:29:48.540 Okay.

00:29:49.160 Nobody's standing in front of the schools.

00:29:50.640 I said, like, you know, like holding the school doors and saying that you can't come in.

00:29:54.040 We're in the schools and we could build from that foundation.

00:29:57.520 But you know what?

00:29:59.180 The comedian Chris Rock said there's no money in that.

00:30:02.360 The money is in the comeback.

00:30:03.840 Okay.

00:30:04.180 So they always have to have that bogeyman about racism and so forth.

00:30:10.980 And without looking at the new challenges that students, all students are facing, all students in the school building, the mental health challenges that has been revealed,

00:30:23.600 or pushed since COVID, you know, like the impact of COVID.

00:30:29.740 So I mentioned about the conference on the weekend there, a couple weekends ago.

00:30:34.440 We have a huge problem.

00:30:36.460 And this ideology and this discussion and emphasis on race is distracting from the real issues around student learning and achievement.

00:30:47.420 And I think you mentioned about Bill 98 and what it's intended to do.

00:30:52.040 I wholeheartedly endorsed Bill 98 as a step in the right direction.

00:30:58.340 It gives the ministry the ability to get more information from the boards and at times to impose decisions.

00:31:07.080 Yes, definitely.

00:31:07.980 And one of the things that I met very briefly, Minister Lecce at Queen's Park back in February of this year, I was able to chat with him briefly.

00:31:19.120 And what I came away from the discussion with was that he was fully committed to finding solutions.

00:31:26.120 He said he's a solutions-based person.

00:31:28.640 He's looking for solutions to the issues.

00:31:32.220 And so when I saw when Bill 98 was tabled, I go, wow, you know what?

00:31:39.220 He is listening because parents have a lot of concerns.

00:31:43.020 Now, in Bill 98, these policies and these laws doesn't jump off the wall and enforce themselves.

00:31:50.960 And I think the next step, obviously, is that the minister is going to have to take a close look and to say, well, you know what?

00:31:57.980 I need to make sure that there are prescriptive policies and regulations that follow up on these laws.

00:32:04.880 If not, left-wing boards are going to find a way around this and to still frustrate parents.

00:32:11.900 To the extent that the law talks about refocusing on student learning achievement, very impressed with that.

00:32:18.100 But again, what happens to the translation in the bureaucracy?

00:32:23.280 And I think that's where it has to become very prescriptive.

00:32:26.820 If not, I almost want to predict that boards will continue to operate as if Bill 98 does not exist.

00:32:36.160 And the politics will be injected into the classroom further.

00:32:39.540 I don't think most parents send their kids to school to be politicized.

00:32:44.780 I think they send them for an education.

00:32:46.920 Well, you know, the other thing, Ryan, as you mentioned that about parents, is that what I'm learning, and I'm trying to get the actual figures, but I consider this to be a fairly reliable source.

00:32:56.680 A parent that is involved with the equivalent to homeschooling told me that there are over 4,000 kids in Waterloo Region alone that are doing the equivalent to homeschooling.

00:33:11.720 And they saw a bunch of parents getting together, forming what they call pods, educating their kids in church basements.

00:33:18.960 Because, and in some cases, the parents and their kids are walking right by a public school, where it wouldn't cost them a penny because they've already paid for it in their taxes, to pay to have their kids educated in the church basement.

00:33:33.480 Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with church basements, because many schools started in church basement back in the day.

00:33:38.660 So saying that is that that points to us having a problem, there's a problem with confidence in what is being delivered.

00:33:48.380 And this is where the ministry, this focus on or wanting to refocus education, if they're very serious about it, then the prescriptive regulations are going to come from Bill 98.

00:34:00.660 If not, parents will continue to abandon the school system.

00:34:04.180 I'm pretty sure the minister would probably have the numbers of every kid in Waterloo Region that's elementary school or high school age in Waterloo Region and could actually tell the numbers in terms of how many kids are enrolled, because the funding follows the kids.

00:34:20.620 So if they're not enrolled in a public or Catholic school, the money doesn't flow.

00:34:25.080 So for our board, if I look at 4,000.

00:34:29.240 It's about 12,000 a student.

00:34:31.100 That's $36 million.

00:34:32.340 Okay, that is being passed up.

00:34:36.020 And we have the space for those kids.

00:34:38.260 And they're not attending our schools.

00:34:39.880 We have a big problem.

00:34:42.740 So let me come back to Richard and what happened with him, because I think it speaks to how boards operate.

00:34:53.720 So one training session happens.

00:34:57.180 He is effectively labeled a white supremacist.

00:35:00.340 Next training session happens.

00:35:01.900 He is referred to as an example of upholding white supremacy and resisting what must be unlearned or learned, according to the Kojo Institute.

00:35:16.340 None of Richard's peers spoke up.

00:35:19.680 None of the bosses at the board spoke up.

00:35:22.900 They, according to the lawsuit that he had launched against the TDSB before his passing, no support was ever offered.

00:35:31.900 Are boards afraid to say no to people that show up with this message?

00:35:39.360 Are they afraid to stand up for their employees or, in your case, their trustees?

00:35:45.980 Well, you know what?

00:35:47.200 I would say that it's not a matter of in this current climate, I wouldn't suggest that boards are afraid.

00:35:53.640 I think boards are actually like this, and they encourage it, because as a trustee, I can't even be critical of it.

00:36:02.080 I cannot raise a question and say, is this acceptable, okay, for this to be happening, for us to be sponsoring this?

00:36:10.460 Because somewhere, somewhere in the woodwork, somebody is offended by that, and that starts another code of conduct complaint.

00:36:19.520 That's how this works.

00:36:20.400 So, boards are actually, I would say, whether they're doing it consciously or not, they're promoting this.

00:36:27.500 It's part of the promotion.

00:36:28.800 Well, it seems like they should be standing up for their employees or the people that they represent, rather than standing up for people who, according to the Workplace Safety Insurance Board of Ontario, were engaged in bullying.

00:36:48.660 Well, you know what?

00:36:50.320 I've had a number of employees complain to me as to how they were treated in some of these workshops on equity, not necessarily run by Kojo Institute, but other DEI consultants that would have been hired.

00:37:08.720 And basically, they were quietly taking this on and said, look, you know, if you want to protect your career, please don't raise that again.

00:37:19.140 That's the message that they're receiving.

00:37:20.940 So, boards are discouraging anyone from, I would say, anecdotally, from coming forward to put their concerns.

00:37:29.160 So, people run for the hills, okay?

00:37:31.680 As in Richard's case, he had some colleagues that, from what I learned, like, that were supportive of him.

00:37:40.540 But the bulk of them, it's not as if they didn't support him, but they were afraid for their careers.

00:37:45.860 Well, one actively supported the Kojo Institute and was later named the Director of Education for the Hamilton-Wentworth District School.

00:37:53.480 Oh, yeah.

00:37:53.820 So, you're speaking of people that are senior to him.

00:37:56.960 I heard about that.

00:37:59.660 And, again, that's why I'm saying I'm not surprised.

00:38:02.400 I just learned this morning from a podcast from, I love to say, Jonathan Kaye had a podcast, and I listened to it.

00:38:11.440 And he was talking about some stuff down in Sarnia and the Kojo Institute.

00:38:15.720 And the city councillor down there is actually saying that social service agencies are down there looking for letters of support for Kojo Institute to actually endorse the behaviour of Kojo Institute.

00:38:33.260 You know?

00:38:33.980 I can shut the stuff up.

00:38:35.520 What can parents do, then, to keep the politics out of their classroom?

00:38:45.060 I mean, you supported a petition that said there must be a path to reconciliation with Indigenous Canadians that doesn't include shaming and guilting students for things they personally didn't do.

00:39:03.700 So, that was part of why you were chastised.

00:39:06.700 That was part of the complaint last year.

00:39:09.680 Yeah, that was part of the complaint that got you censured.

00:39:11.920 So, what can parents actually do, parents and grandparents who are concerned about what's going on in their schools?

00:39:19.260 Well, I'll tell you what a couple of my colleagues and myself have encouraged and we've been engaging with parents from all backgrounds is to say that they need to get their message to Minister Lecce because he's the one with the power to make things happen.

00:39:38.400 We have Bill 98 and what I've been encouraging parents, but in line with Minister Lecce's commitment to finding solutions, we now have Bill 98 and I've been encouraging parents to engage with him and to write to him and to share their concerns and to give to him the concrete examples that they've been giving to me and a couple of my other colleagues that are willing to listen.

00:40:00.500 And they have some valid concerns.

00:40:03.180 I'm not saying everything that they come to me with is 100% like, you know, 100% correct or anything like that, but they do have valid concerns.

00:40:14.020 They do have a right to know what's going on, like when they send their kids to school, that their kids are not going to be coming home crying.

00:40:21.340 They do have to, they need to have that kind of confidence in the school system.

00:40:26.100 And this is running amok with the ideology and bowing down to this religion that has been adopted by activist boards.

00:40:35.780 You keep saying it's a religion.

00:40:37.720 Explain to folks what you mean by that.

00:40:39.880 Because it's not like you're talking about the Anglicans or the Baptists or Islam.

00:40:46.140 So the one way to describe it is that if you, whatever they're telling you, like not you, but whatever they're saying.

00:40:57.060 You're talking the Ontario, what you refer to as the Ontario NDP affiliated trustees.

00:41:02.920 So basically they want you to adopt their viewpoint about race relations and how we're going to fix any issues to do with race relations.

00:41:11.820 And it's just their wisdom alone that counts.

00:41:16.240 So if you have any questions, then you're considered to be a, what do we call it in real religion?

00:41:22.800 A heretic. 0.65

00:41:23.440 A heretic, yeah. 0.97

00:41:25.120 And that's how they view, they view you.

00:41:27.600 So basically, unless you agree 100% with what they're doing, you're going to have a problem.

00:41:35.680 That's basically what it comes down to.

00:41:37.300 And they weaponize codes of conduct to enforce this.

00:41:42.120 In real religion, you might be tossed out of your church or other church members don't talk to you.

00:41:48.920 Well, the equivalent of that is going on at the board right now.

00:41:53.300 They don't even feel like they should even tolerate you, even though you were sent there by voters, the same voters that sent them there.

00:42:01.380 It's an interesting place that education is at.

00:42:07.900 And perhaps I'm glad that my kids are out of that part of the school system at this point, because things that I was seeing 10 years ago appear to have only gotten worse, Mike.

00:42:18.200 Yes, it has.

00:42:19.400 And I think this current government, who I support, you know, for nothing else other than the fact also that the alternative is saying the government is going too far.

00:42:30.440 Can you imagine that?

00:42:31.220 Bill 98 is saying they want to refocus boards to student learning and achievement.

00:42:36.700 And the opposition is saying we want nothing to do with that.

00:42:40.620 Things are just fine.

00:42:42.160 And that's with the evidence that probably, what, 4,000 kids in Waterloo Region alone are walking past schools on a daily basis, going to be educated in pods.

00:42:54.220 That cannot be allowed to continue.

00:42:58.060 Parents from all backgrounds, I would suggest, they want their kids educated.

00:43:01.360 They don't care about whether, and I've said it before, whether or not it's green shirt day or blue shirt day or whatever it is.

00:43:08.240 They want their kids educated, and they don't want their kids coming home crying.

00:43:12.360 Okay?

00:43:12.660 And each kid should be treated equally without exception.

00:43:17.480 Nobody's the oppressed and the oppressor.

00:43:21.520 That needs to come out of our school buildings.

00:43:24.280 And Minister Lecce has the power to do that.

00:43:26.820 And I hope the Premier, who I respect a lot, that, you know, he'll hear the voices of parents right across Ontario.

00:43:38.760 Parents are not happy.

00:43:40.440 And as I shared anecdotally and informally at Queen's Park in February, there are problems out in the republics.

00:43:49.480 Those are my words to the Premier.

00:43:52.300 Problems out in the republics about education, and it needs to be fixed.

00:43:55.740 And you know what?

00:43:56.840 It was refreshing.

00:43:58.080 I'm not saying it was inspired by me, because I think probably the plans were in the works, with regard to Bill 98.

00:44:04.360 And I think if any of your listeners are looking for some advice from the perspective of a trustee as to what to do,

00:44:13.180 share their concerns with Minister Lecce.

00:44:15.700 Ask him to enforce the powers that the legislature just granted to him when Bill 98 received royal assent.

00:44:22.960 We'll leave it on that note of hope.

00:44:27.680 Mike Ramsey, thanks so much.

00:44:29.120 Thank you very much for having me.

00:44:30.440 Thank you.

00:44:32.180 Full Comment is a post-media podcast.

00:44:34.840 My name is Brian Lilly.

00:44:36.000 This episode was produced by Andre Prude, with theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:44:40.180 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:44:42.780 Remember, you can subscribe to Full Comment on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, Amazon Music.

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00:44:56.120 Thanks for listening.

00:44:56.960 Until next time, I'm Brian Lilly.

Full Comment - August 14, 2023

Inside Canadian school boards, ‘if you disagree…you’re punished’

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