Full Comment - Interview with the lieutenant general cancelled for speaking unwokely

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00:01:00.000 Applauding service to one's country.

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00:01:11.800 Asking that the military actually be uniform in how it operates.

00:01:15.860 These are the things that can get you cancelled in 2022 in Canada.

00:01:20.240 Hi, I'm Brian Lilly, columnist with Post Media and guest host this week for Full Comment.

00:01:26.180 We're going to bring you the story of Lieutenant General Michel Mezeneuve, who a few weeks ago made news over a speech that, in my view, shouldn't be controversial at all.

00:01:35.780 And yet, it is leading to cancel culture being enacted on him, one of the many things he warned about in his speech.

00:01:42.880 Before we get to the general, though, I do want to take a moment for a bit of housekeeping and ask everyone listening now to make sure that you are hitting subscribe for our podcast or leaving a comment, sharing it on social media, or spreading the word in other ways.

00:01:57.960 It helps get the word out, and it helps let people hear differing viewpoints like that of Lieutenant General Michel Mezeneuve, who joins me now.

00:02:06.760 General, thank you very much for your time.

00:02:08.640 Thank you for your service.

00:02:09.640 And thank you for what I think is a very interesting speech that you gave a few weeks ago.

00:02:16.960 Bonjour, Brian.

00:02:17.560 Merci beaucoup.

00:02:18.320 Thank you for having me.

00:02:19.460 It's a pleasure to be with you.

00:02:21.180 Let's back up a little bit and describe for us when and where you gave this speech.

00:02:27.560 It was you were receiving an award at a rather posh affair in Ottawa at the War Museum.

00:02:36.420 But walk us through that.

00:02:37.640 What was the event, and what was the award, and tell us a little bit about your speech.

00:02:44.180 Okay.

00:02:44.600 Well, the award is called the VIMI Award.

00:02:47.100 It's given every year, and I guess I was the 30th recipient.

00:02:50.540 I'm very honored to have received this award, and it's for a lifetime of service and protection of our democratic values in Canada.

00:02:59.480 And it's given, as I say, every year by the Conference of Defense Associations Institute, which is a large group of folks who advocate for national defense for security.

00:03:15.220 And it was not at the World Museum.

00:03:17.060 It usually is at the World Museum.

00:03:18.700 This year, it was at the Museum of History in Getsemane.

00:03:20.820 And it was a lovely gathering of about 600 people.

00:03:27.120 And folks from, yes, serving people from the military, but also a lot of retired folks, some public servants, academics, a large community of folks there.

00:03:43.920 And so I used the forum, the platform, as a way to express my views of where we stand today in Canada.

00:03:55.100 One of the ideas that you put forward was service.

00:04:01.340 Before we get into the depths of the speech and your ideas on cancel culture and woke journalism and many things that I know the listeners will want to hear about, tell me about your service.

00:04:14.240 Because in your speech, you talk about how it is a family tradition for you, not just yourself, but your wife served.

00:04:22.160 Your son is now serving.

00:04:23.700 I mean, you were in for more than 30 years, I believe, and served in Bosnia, Kosovo.

00:04:31.840 Did you serve in Afghanistan?

00:04:33.840 I did not.

00:04:34.740 I was then, I was then, my last post was in Norfolk, Virginia, where we stood up the NATO's Allied Command transformation.

00:04:43.520 It was a command meant to transform NATO from a static institution to being able to deploy and fight elsewhere.

00:04:54.260 But yeah, I mean, service generally, I must say, is something that I believe very much in.

00:04:59.860 Yes, I spent 35 years, and then I was asked to be the academic director or principal, if you wish, of the reopening of the Royal Military College in Saint-Jean in Quebec.

00:05:09.160 So I spent 10 and a half more years there with, and when I left, we actually managed to get it back up to university level, which was, you know, I thought a great, a great thing for the armed forces and so on.

00:05:19.900 So service, yes, my wife did serve 21 years in the Air Force.

00:05:25.160 My son is in the Navy currently.

00:05:27.460 He's a petty officer, first class, and he's the coxswain of HMCS Moncton, a maritime coastal defense vessel.

00:05:35.340 And my daughter is in the reserves as well.

00:05:37.380 So we have, you know, we have a tradition.

00:05:39.860 We have more than, I guess, when you put it all together, more than 85 to 90 years of service altogether.

00:05:46.840 That is something that you alluded to this in your speech, so I'd like you to expand on it a bit, that we don't have a service of tradition in a culture that puts too much emphasis on me first.

00:05:59.600 What's in it for me?

00:06:01.720 What did you mean by that?

00:06:02.740 Well, I think today's society, a lot of today's society, and, you know, it's easy to generalize.

00:06:09.920 There are so many great Canadians, and I think our society needs to put more emphasis on service.

00:06:16.680 And it's one of the values, I think, that I won't say missing, but not emphasized enough.

00:06:22.600 Service, volunteerism, giving to your country as opposed to taking or expecting from your country.

00:06:29.800 And so, you know, that's kind of what I meant.

00:06:33.300 And, you know, in today's society, there is a lot of, you know, it's all about me.

00:06:38.480 And, you know, and so I, you know, I feel that we need to, and, you know, it starts from the top, and it starts by individuals.

00:06:45.480 It starts by all of us trying to enhance our belief in service and actually to put our money where our mouth is and to actually serve in some capacity.

00:06:57.780 So, you know, do you think that the military, do you think that the military and service in the military is held in high esteem at this point?

00:07:06.960 Well, that's the problem, Brian.

00:07:09.000 I think right now it's not held.

00:07:10.540 And, you know, we wonder why, you know, the military and the chief of defense staff referred to the number of folks that are missing, and he's trying to recruit all these people.

00:07:17.700 Well, we have to make the military, again, we, and we have to put it out there that it's a wonderful opportunity to serve your country.

00:07:27.780 And it's a, it's an incredible calling and a passion and something that we should all aspire to.

00:07:33.580 So, and it's a, look, just that's the philosophical view of the thing, but it's also a great career.

00:07:39.260 I mean, you, right now you're well paid, you know, the military is trying to change its culture and, and by God, I give all kudos to, to General Air, you know, he's trying to, you know, get the, the culture changed in the military.

00:07:52.860 But it's a great career and, and it's a place where you can demonstrate leadership, your initiative, and, and then retire with a great pension, you know, and it's, so it is a career.

00:08:05.460 It should be a career of choice. It's just not seen that way. And of course, why not? So let's look at the, the reasons, you know, I mean, you could probably come up with as many as I can.

00:08:15.280 Of course, you've heard all the, the, the, the military sexual trauma issues that are going on and it's, and I don't belittle those, you know, they're happening.

00:08:23.180 A predator is a predator in the military or not. Everybody should be able to, you know, to serve with respect and have respect for others.

00:08:31.800 So, and if they're not, I'm, I'm the first guy to say, let's mercilessly root them out, turf them, and let's make sure we change the culture to, to one of respect.

00:08:41.280 So when people hear that, you know, of course it doesn't help recruiting. When people see that the military is underfunded, um, that doesn't help recruiting because of course, who wants to join an organization that's got old kit.

00:08:55.300 And, and in my speech, I talked about the moral contract and the moral contract between the military who accept to go and serve in difficult locations to do those missions that we send them to do, to project Canadian values abroad, to fight our wars if we need to, if they need to, and they're prepared to give their life up for it.

00:09:14.680 That's their part of the contract. Well, the other part of the contract ought to be that, that the Canadian society, Canadian government will actually ensure that those that go and do that,

00:09:25.160 they will give them all the means necessary to do the job to the best of their ability.

00:09:29.040 So what's that? Well, give them, you know, good kit, good equipment and up to date to give them the training, the education, the knowledge that they need for that, to, um, to ensure they're taken care of while they're serving and then to look after them when they come back.

00:09:46.320 And right now that moral contract between, between Canadian society, the government, and the military is broken.

00:09:54.200 I want to ask you about getting the right kit and spending the right amount, but you mentioned looking after them when they come back.

00:10:01.260 I'm sure you've seen the headlines from my, my colleague, Brian Passifium at the National Post, writing about the horrifying stories of veterans, including one who was looking to transfer from active service to being a veteran, being offered medical assistance in dying.

00:10:21.220 I think we're up to five different veterans that instead of giving them the services they need, we've offered them, you know, why don't you consider medical assistance in dying?

00:10:34.780 Kudos to Minister Macaulay, who has referred it to the RCMP, um, launched an investigation, but that to me doesn't, uh, signify a country that wants to show respect for those who have served.

00:10:49.560 It's a horrible situation and I, I, you know, it's almost unfathomable.

00:10:55.900 I just, you know, and of course you may know, Brian, that I've been working with veterans now for more than 10 years, probably 12 years, something like that.

00:11:03.360 I, I was, uh, on the, uh, the transition committee for St. Anne's hospital in Montreal that transitioned from a federal institution to a public, to a, to a provincial institution.

00:11:13.780 Um, and there were a lot of problems, there was a, there were a lot of issues there, but I started working with veterans even before that, um, as part of the St. Anne's foundation.

00:11:23.780 And so I've, and these veterans who were at the time when the hospital transferred, there were 305, uh, veterans from the world war II and, uh, Korea.

00:11:33.620 So these guys average age was 95 and amazing people, men and women.

00:11:39.080 And I had so much contact with them.

00:11:41.020 I made so many friends and, and I, you know, did my best to represent them on this committee.

00:11:45.500 So I know veterans and of course I also know, you know, younger veterans, new veterans who are friends of mine who are, you know, who I've served with and some that I haven't served with, but I've heard since the speech, by the way, we're all in great support.

00:11:59.780 I, I think our veterans need support from veterans affairs, not just on policy, but they need support also on employees of veterans, veterans affairs who know veterans, who understand veterans.

00:12:15.380 who can show the care and compassion.

00:12:17.660 My good friend, um, Walter Natinchuk, when he was deputy minister, he brought something in, he, he called it care and compassion, respect, care and compassion.

00:12:25.940 That's what the employees need to have.

00:12:28.220 And he, he was kind of trying to change the culture also, but you have to understand veterans affairs is a public service department.

00:12:35.880 So they have public servants in there who may not necessarily have any idea what a veteran is.

00:12:41.720 They maybe get some training when they arrive.

00:12:43.800 I don't know the point is that unless you actually, uh, can understand and, and feel for them, you it's hard to give them, you know, uh, the service.

00:12:55.140 And I, I dare say a lot of, probably the employees of veterans affairs who are case managers, whoever are looking after veterans are probably overworked.

00:13:02.160 Cause there's a lot of them and a lot of veterans have issues.

00:13:05.280 I mean, they have, of course, physical issues.

00:13:07.680 They have mental issues and, uh, you know, I'm lucky I came out relatively unscathed, I'm getting old.

00:13:13.540 So I've got a lot of Bobo's that are hurting and so on.

00:13:16.740 My mind is, is, uh, not as sharp as it was, but you know what?

00:13:20.400 Uh, but a lot of our veterans need care, need compassion, need respect.

00:13:25.300 And, and so, uh, so, you know, this, uh, medical aid in dying is, it was just a horrible thing.

00:13:32.960 Getting to that point requires leadership.

00:13:35.480 You spoke about leadership in your speech and that's part of what got you in trouble because you talked about leaders who you can't divide your people and then expect to lead them.

00:13:46.740 Um, uh, you, you, you gave that example within a military context, but were you speaking about prime minister, Justin Trudeau at that point?

00:13:55.920 Well, Brian, you know, if the hat fits as my dad used to say, you know, uh, but, but I would say to you that, uh, I, I can, I have my views.

00:14:04.920 I can criticize who I want.

00:14:06.720 I think as long as I'm, and I'm not being hateful here, but about anybody, but what I was trying to say was that in a military context, if you divide people,

00:14:15.860 you're never going to be able to, you know, it's the opposite of creating teamwork.

00:14:19.640 One of my, I have four leadership principles.

00:14:22.460 The first one's communications.

00:14:23.900 The second one is teamwork.

00:14:25.160 And what do you do when you're a leader while you communicate, you, uh, you try to create a team and how do you do that?

00:14:32.300 Well, you know, people help each other, they are, they're tolerant of each other.

00:14:37.720 Uh, they don't disrespect a certain group, you know, and this all applies to today in, in society, whether you're talking about, you know,

00:14:45.620 a government, a corporation, and I gave those examples, a sports team, you know, you want to create unity and tolerance.

00:14:51.280 And, and so, yeah, I, but I mean, I got in trouble for worse things before.

00:14:56.500 General, one of the things that, um, you know, I've, I've, I've read the full speech.

00:15:02.040 Um, I unfortunately was not there to hear it and have not heard, uh, or seen a video presentation of it, but.

00:15:10.180 You didn't hear me singing then, Brian.

00:15:11.680 No, no, I did not hear you singing Satchmo at the end, but I did see it was there.

00:15:16.220 The, uh, you talked about unity, um, the uniform.

00:15:22.300 You were critical of the military for, uh, making changes that will allow people to wear beards in the military, to dye their hair, all kinds of colors.

00:15:33.700 That was put forward by some people as, well, you're being anti-trans.

00:15:39.500 I didn't read it that way.

00:15:41.060 I read, read it as someone in the military, um, speaking up for the idea that you need unity and conformity in the military.

00:15:50.500 I'm not going to, to claim to be a veteran, sir, a brief time as a reservist more than 30 years ago, but it gave me some insight into the military and being around family members who have been, um, serving over the last several decades gives me insight into it.

00:16:07.260 You need unity and cohesion, and it seems like the military in response to cultural changes, political pressures is moving away from that.

00:16:17.420 Why do you think that is a bad thing?

00:16:19.480 Why did you put that in your speech?

00:16:21.040 Were you, were you calling for a return to some old and glory days that don't exist?

00:16:26.900 Were you being transphobic?

00:16:29.540 What were you talking about there?

00:16:30.700 Yeah, well, I, I did not, first of all, I didn't criticize beards or any of that stuff specifically.

00:16:36.800 What I said was that uniforms have become a way of, it seems that uniforms have become a way of expressing your individuality.

00:16:45.840 And in my view, it's the complete, and, and where you get that I'm against trans and, you know, LGBT folks and, and, you know, uh. 0.86

00:16:54.480 I think that's folks making a leap.

00:16:56.200 Well, that's making a huge leap and, and, uh, you know, it's completely ridiculous because I, you know, I believe anybody who wants to serve their country, I don't care their race and, uh, sex, gender, their, uh, their political affiliation, religion makes no difference.

00:17:12.380 If you want to serve your country, you ought to be able to do it, first of all.

00:17:16.380 And secondly, you ought to be able to do it with respect.

00:17:18.880 You should be respected in others.

00:17:20.780 You should respect others.

00:17:22.000 So, and you know, when I say creating a team, I didn't say if it, you know, and women and men and everybody should have the same opportunity.

00:17:28.840 So, but on the question of uniforms, what I was, the point I was trying to make was a uniform is the first thing that they try to give you when you're in recruit training to make you feel part of the team.

00:17:44.120 They give you a uniform and everybody dresses this doesn't matter where you come from.

00:17:48.200 You come from any place in Canada.

00:17:50.100 You can come, you can be French, English, uh, you know, whatever origin, rich or poor, whatever, whatever sexual orientation you are, it makes no difference.

00:17:58.820 They dress you the same so that you are uniform.

00:18:01.740 To me, if you want to use methods of expressing your individuality, do it outside the uniform.

00:18:08.640 So I'm not going to, you know, sit with you and say, okay, this one is wrong, that's wrong, that's right, that's wrong.

00:18:13.680 But what I will tell you is there are some things that don't make a bit of difference.

00:18:18.340 Okay.

00:18:18.960 The length of your hair makes a difference only in operations.

00:18:22.300 So you shouldn't have your hair flip, flipping about when you're, uh, you know, when you're trying to put on a gas mask and so forth.

00:18:29.320 Okay.

00:18:29.720 So that's one thing, but that's an operational requirement.

00:18:32.740 Let's, I'll give you a very good example.

00:18:34.760 Okay.

00:18:35.040 I'm a tanker.

00:18:36.120 As you may know, I grew up, you know, I,

00:18:38.480 from, uh, from an armored regiment, Le Douzième Régiment Blindé du Canada.

00:18:41.800 I have to give him a plug here in Valcartier.

00:18:45.860 Good friend of mine once was wearing his wedding ring and we're on top of a tank.

00:18:50.300 He jumps off the tank and the ring got caught on the tank.

00:18:53.840 Okay.

00:18:54.120 So his finger kind of grew to twice its size.

00:18:57.400 He had to get the thing removed, you know, uh, and so, okay.

00:19:01.980 So does that mean you should not be, yeah, it means you shouldn't be wearing jewelry when you're working on a tank.

00:19:07.640 And so a lot of these, you know, the, the question of uniforms, I think should be looked at in, you know, you look at a sports like the national football league.

00:19:18.100 They are very restrictive in terms of what a player can wear on the field because they're part of a team and they want them to look like they're part of a team.

00:19:26.340 And so, so there are some things that I have issues with in, uh, in, uh, on uniforms.

00:19:31.960 And as you said about beards, I don't think many people get that, that if you're wearing a beard, fitting a gas mask properly becomes much more difficult.

00:19:40.460 Well, you know, exactly, but there is a, I think there's a rule that says if it, for operational reasons, you need to, to have a clean, be clean shaven, you know, that's, that's the rule that will come down.

00:19:51.660 So, so there's some stuff that matters, but other stuff that doesn't matter and the stuff that doesn't matter fine.

00:19:57.420 You know, just, but as long as the uniform remains a uniform and uniformity, I mean, you just look at the definition of what a uniform is, you know, it's a question of belonging, uh, of creating teamwork, of creating that, that cohesion that, that you want to have.

00:20:12.640 And so, uh, you know, so that, and, and people took it, uh, Brian as, as me, you know, dish dissing, uh, general air.

00:20:20.060 Okay.

00:20:20.320 Wayne air, I know him a little bit.

00:20:23.320 I have a great deal of respect.

00:20:25.200 He's been through a lot of difficult moments and he's picked up the challenge and he's trying to, he's trying to change the forces culture at the same time as he's trying to recruit the forces to bring them back to up to the compliment that they should be.

00:20:39.760 They're underfunded.

00:20:40.720 He's trying to buy new equipment.

00:20:42.760 Uh, he's also, uh, he's also having to respond to operational requirements.

00:20:47.560 Now the government is, you know, is, you know, bringing out new strategies, the Indo-Pacific strategy and so on.

00:20:54.580 And, uh, but this stuff doesn't come with the necessary resources.

00:20:59.140 So, you know, when we talk about, you know, being able to do all these things at once, the chief of defense staff has so much, you know, he has so much capacity.

00:21:07.980 And so if the capacity is right now being used for something, he's going to have to pull it out of there to do something else.

00:21:14.460 You know what I mean?

00:21:14.820 So he is in a difficult position.

00:21:17.320 And I, I respect him, I honor him, and I, I think, uh, I support him in, uh, in, in his job.

00:21:25.200 We'll take a quick break right here.

00:21:26.780 And when we come back, I want to read part of your speech for the audience to hear where you describe the great things that Canada has done.

00:21:34.940 And, and you seem to be saying that we don't rise up to that level of greatness anymore.

00:21:40.320 So we'll take a break now and, and get to that when we return.

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00:22:58.620 General, I want to read part of your speech and then ask you what you were getting to here,

00:23:05.160 where you were talking about the greatness of our country.

00:23:08.820 You say, Canada, once we were great, we stopped the Americans in 1812. 0.98

00:23:13.420 We gave the world Billy Bishop, Alexander Graham Bell, and Lucy Maud Montgomery.

00:23:18.300 We isolated insulin, invented the zipper and the snowblower.

00:23:22.060 In World War I, we mobilized 620,000 troops.

00:23:25.660 We were victorious at Vimy Ridge.

00:23:27.300 In World War II, we were brave enough to land at Dieppe, and we secured our beach on D-Day.

00:23:32.740 The Devil's Brigade remains the template for special forces the world over.

00:23:36.860 Our small country boasted the world's third largest navy at the end of that conflict.

00:23:42.000 You go on with more examples, but do you believe that Canada is living up to its potential right now?

00:23:50.280 Absolutely not.

00:23:54.660 I don't think we are.

00:23:57.020 However, I do think we have the potential to get there.

00:24:00.440 We need, and you know, obviously the speech, the idea of the speech was to talk about what was required.

00:24:05.720 I think what's required is leadership, service, tolerance, courage, unity, and I don't think we're there right now.

00:24:14.320 I mean, and I look at the state of our country in the world, you know, in the world right now, are we the first place that, you know, that people will come to make an alliance?

00:24:30.840 You know, is Canada pulling its weight in different places?

00:24:35.120 I mean, you know, the thing that killed me, this, you know, the AUKUS arrangement there in the Pacific, you know, that Canada was not even consulted, was not even at the table.

00:24:47.060 You know, that, I thought that was absolutely horrible.

00:24:51.840 That's essentially, are you talking about the submarine purchases or the Five Eyes becoming three? 0.75

00:24:56.940 Well, yes, that, and frankly, you know, and the way I see our country right now on the world stage, I think our priorities are in the wrong way, in the wrong place.

00:25:10.480 We, you know, we have so much potential.

00:25:13.160 Let's talk resources for one second, okay?

00:25:15.240 We talk about climate change, and people will read my speech and think I'm a climate denier.

00:25:19.780 I'm not a climate denier.

00:25:21.360 I think that the climate is changing.

00:25:23.840 There's no question.

00:25:24.700 But I don't think that it's man that's doing everything.

00:25:28.700 So the question that I ask myself is, will we be able to stop climate change and to go back?

00:25:36.400 Or should we more, and by the way, Canada produces, I mean, look at this, you know, you can find the statistics yourself, but apparently something like 1.6% of the greenhouse gases of the world.

00:25:48.920 That's about accurate, yes.

00:25:49.960 Okay, so instead of trying to be, you know, trying to be more, you know, I say Catholic than the Pope, I probably get in trouble for that too.

00:26:00.200 But, you know, that we are, you know, that we're going to, you know, cut our emissions, which are only 1.6%, that we're going to, you know, we're not going to do any more development of fossil fuels.

00:26:11.400 You know, and therefore we're going to kill our resource sector. 0.59

00:26:16.560 Instead of using our resource sector to help those who are producing 20 and 30% of the greenhouse gases of the world to help them change from coal to gas, which is cleaner, and eventually to, you know, renewable energy.

00:26:35.520 So we could be a leader from that point of view, and we're not.

00:26:39.620 We're trying to lead by example with our 1.6%.

00:26:43.040 And so the other thing is I believe that water is one of the greatest resources in the world.

00:26:49.600 And Canada has more reserves of water, I think, than any nation except probably Russia.

00:26:54.700 But we have to really protect our water.

00:26:57.380 And that's an area we should be, you know, working on, you know, single-use plastics.

00:27:03.000 I agree with all of that.

00:27:04.740 And, but, you know, so the environment is more than climate change.

00:27:07.960 As far as climate change goes, what we should be doing is developing mitigation ways because the climate is going to continue to change.

00:27:17.920 But you also seem to be saying in your speech that we could be lowering the emissions in other countries by using our natural resources.

00:27:28.760 Were you talking about using Canadian natural gas to replace coal plants in China and India and elsewhere, which is something that the current government doesn't seem to want to do?

00:27:39.360 So they're happy to let others do that or, you know, continue to allow coal exports, but they don't want Canadian natural gas replacing coal in Asia.

00:27:50.020 Well, that's, that's exactly the point I just made.

00:27:52.360 It's absolutely exactly what we could be doing.

00:27:54.900 And what a leadership role that would be.

00:27:56.980 What an international leadership role that would make us, that would put us in.

00:28:01.960 So, you know, and there are others who are experts in this stuff.

00:28:05.640 I'm not an expert.

00:28:06.360 I'm just a ordinary old armored guy, retired, and I'm looking at this and this is how I feel.

00:28:12.320 So that, that, that was where my speech was going.

00:28:14.660 It's just, I find that our, our leadership internationally could be enhanced by some of these measures and, and, you know, and also look our economy, you know, and I talked about courage and I find sometimes governments generally don't make, you know, they, they'll listen to a lot of the individual kind of special interests and so on.

00:28:35.780 And as opposed to saying, well, here's a vision for Canada, here's where we could be, here's the potential we have.

00:28:41.380 And then saying, and, and then, and then selling that to Canadians, you know, and something that's, you know, I'm not going to make this part of the country happy or that part of country happy.

00:28:51.420 But for Canada itself, it's the best thing.

00:28:54.220 So let's go sell it to those parts who will be unhappy, but maybe for the good of our country, coming back to service, to leadership, to tolerance, maybe that, you know, then our country will, will increase in stature and Canadians will be happy.

00:29:09.100 We, look, we live in the best country in the world.

00:29:11.260 And I, you know, I'm not, you know, I, I, I haven't lost faith in our country and our people.

00:29:17.180 And, and so I think, I think we, we can do a better job.

00:29:22.940 Immediately after the speech, you were criticized by members of the armed forces.

00:29:30.000 Some, not all you got applause, definitely at the event.

00:29:33.640 We heard about that.

00:29:35.160 But you also got some criticism.

00:29:36.980 Now, I've referenced a few times that you've been canceled.

00:29:43.540 You've recently been asked to step down from the board of an organization that you've been affiliated with for a little while now.

00:29:50.360 What happened there?

00:29:51.480 It's the, the center for chronic pain.

00:29:53.960 It assists veterans, I understand.

00:29:56.080 Yeah, it's a chronic pain center of excellence, which is a, a, an institution organization that does research on, on chronic pain for veterans and how to, to best manage it, to deal with it and to bring, bring hope and care to, to veterans.

00:30:13.540 The other thing that the center does is it's creating a network of clinics across the country that are, where, where veterans can get, receive treatment.

00:30:24.000 So, um, why did they ask you to step away then?

00:30:28.360 Well, I mean, I think it's as a result of, uh, of my remarks and, uh, that's, I think some veterans contacted them and, and were, uh, were unhappy with some of the things I said, or at least extrapolated some of the things that I did not say, uh, or took, you know, a meaning from something I might've said.

00:30:45.640 So they asked me, and I think it was, it was creating, uh, you know, a little bit of, uh, a little bit of, uh, you know, hoopla.

00:30:55.500 And, uh, and so, yeah, so they asked me to resign.

00:30:58.060 And of course the, the mission is what's important here, Brian, and the mission of the center is more important than me or my service on that, on that center.

00:31:06.100 So I, I resigned, uh, because they asked me, uh, I'm not happy about it.

00:31:12.760 And I thought I, I could have been, uh, you know, there, there were other ways to deal with this, but I, uh, you know, because I, as I say to people, I spent 50 years protecting freedom of speech and I was using my platform to, to give some ideas that I have.

00:31:27.220 They're on my own, they're my own ideas.

00:31:29.800 They're not the center of excellence's ideas.

00:31:32.280 Uh, but you know, they have, as I said, off this, off the top though, general, your speech was maybe not for everybody, but to me, there was nothing offensive in it.

00:31:42.000 And yet we've got professor Juno at university of Ottawa, um, saying that the speech was an embarrassment and a good illustration of the culture of entitlement that has led to systemic abuses of power in the senior ranks of the military.

00:31:57.220 Colonel Rob Kearney, someone I've never heard of before, um, said the gala was sullied with arrogance, entitlement, and not in keeping with the humility and spirit of the event.

00:32:08.880 Minister Anand, um, said that she expects military personnel to uphold Canadian values, which to me implies that she doesn't think your speech did.

00:32:19.200 And, and, and, and Yuri Cormier, uh, who is the executive director of the conference of defense associations, um, he said that, uh, your remarks do not reflect those of the CDA Institute.

00:32:36.660 How do you understand the backlash?

00:32:39.040 Did, did people express disappointment on the evening?

00:32:43.600 Um, where did this backlash come from?

00:32:46.480 Well, I don't know, and of course, you know, I talk about free speech, they're all entitled to their ideas and their opinions and thank you for them.

00:32:55.060 But as I used to do in my, uh, in my military career, I would often listen to everybody's opinion and then thank them for it and then make my own decision based on what I, you know, what I thought was the right thing to do.

00:33:06.240 Um, where does the backlash come from?

00:33:07.920 Well, I, frankly, I don't know.

00:33:10.240 And, and some of these people that you talk about, uh, you know, um, are fun or good ones to talk about, uh, about me being entitled and so on.

00:33:18.700 And I, you know, and I don't know where they get that from the, you know, from, from the, uh, from the remarks.

00:33:24.700 But, uh, but I, uh, you know, I, I have received, I will tell you, Brian, I've received two people who've reached out to me to say, you know, crazy people. 0.63

00:33:34.800 So they said, you know, go beat up your wife and things like this. 1.00

00:33:37.660 All the rest of the hundreds of people who've reached out to me, folks, have all been positive.

00:33:43.960 One wrote me and said, I agree with 80% of what you said.

00:33:48.260 Here's what I don't agree with and here's why.

00:33:51.360 And, you know, what I wanted to do was create a dialogue, a respectful dialogue with some of these issues that are important for our country that we need to put on the table and discuss in a respectful manner.

00:34:03.880 And you come back to, nobody's written me and said, you know, here's, I disagree entirely with your speech and here's why.

00:34:09.820 I'd be happy to write them back and say, okay, thank you for, you know, for that.

00:34:14.000 And here's my kind of, here's my opinion on this and let's continue to have discussion.

00:34:19.480 Nobody, nobody.

00:34:20.900 And at the, at the, at the dinner, at the Gallup, uh, dinner, no one came to see me after to say, good speech, except for this part.

00:34:29.560 I didn't like it.

00:34:30.540 You know, all those who came over shook my hand and told me how wonderful it was.

00:34:34.980 Um, there's even a very senior government official who told me that he's the, it's the best speech he's heard in a long time.

00:34:43.420 He asked me to send it to him.

00:34:44.800 So, you know, it's, it's very interesting to, to hear all this backlash now, but again, they're entitled to their opinion.

00:34:51.380 I was not trying to make everybody happy on the other hand.

00:34:54.720 Uh, on the contrary, I was trying to actually raise issues that would force people to think about those issues and say, well, I don't agree with him.

00:35:01.980 Um, or geez, you know, first time I've heard that and I, it's kind of true, isn't it? 1.00

00:35:06.240 I mean, when you think about it.

00:35:07.580 And so I, you definitely got a conversation going.

00:35:11.760 I'm sorry.

00:35:12.460 You definitely got a conversation going and.

00:35:14.700 Well, I'm happy.

00:35:15.420 You quoted Margaret Thatcher in your speech saying, there's no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation.

00:35:21.880 And your obligation was met with the service to, uh, our country.

00:35:26.920 So you're entitled to your free speech.

00:35:28.620 I want to, I want to end on this because we, we didn't get, uh, into it a lot.

00:35:33.260 I did mention woke journalism.

00:35:35.500 Um, look, I've been in the media business a long time, but you highlighted something that, uh, has driven me bonkers over the past several years.

00:35:44.840 I'm a paid opinion columnist.

00:35:46.860 I am not a, um, you know, a straight shooting arrow reporter.

00:35:52.660 Uh, but you mentioned that, you know, the people feeding opinions in their, their news coverage now aren't seasoned people.

00:36:02.000 They're too often young people just out of, um, journalism school or straight out of university.

00:36:08.460 And I couldn't agree more.

00:36:09.840 That is a problem.

00:36:10.760 Um, give you a quick comment on that.

00:36:13.100 Well, I, you know, I, and I don't want to paint again, everybody, you know, every young person as, uh, you know, poorly informed.

00:36:21.100 But what I was trying to say was the difference, the, the, the line between an, an opinion and a report, uh, that comes in is, is kind of blurred now.

00:36:31.120 And the way you report, you can, you know, they're reporting now kind of left-leaning, right-leaning sometimes, you know, and they don't give the whole, you know, all sides of an issue.

00:36:40.840 And so that, you know, I, I, just the facts, you know, and, uh, and in your case as an opinion writer, well, that's a different story.

00:36:48.840 You give your opinion.

00:36:49.620 Again, people may agree, they may not.

00:36:51.560 That's what I was doing with my speech.

00:36:53.060 So, so there's a lot of that, uh, that goes on, I mean, and you know, the one thing we didn't talk about was, uh, indigenous issues and people have come back to me and said that, you know, here I was standing under these totems, totem poles, fantastic, spectacular totem poles and, and, uh, talking about how, uh, you know, how, uh, we shouldn't apologize anymore.

00:37:13.260 And I guess all, all I was, would say about that and, and, uh, I believe apologies are important and they've been made.

00:37:20.000 Now we need to show some action and we need to, for example, one of the things I cannot believe is that our country, not every community, indigenous or whatever, has clean water.

00:37:31.620 Brian, I would think that's the simplest thing to fix.

00:37:34.040 And would that give, would that show our indigenous, our first nations people that we care, you know, a lot more than sometimes the virtue signaling that, that, that happens, you know?

00:37:43.520 So I wanted to get that out there before we finish.

00:37:46.240 So, uh, no, understood. And I've heard from people in living in, in indigenous communities who, who said they would prefer action over words as well.

00:37:55.960 Absolutely. And I, and I respect, uh, the first nations I tell you.

00:37:59.540 All right. Lieutenant general, Michelle Mezenov, thank you for your time. Thank you for your service today.

00:38:05.040 Thank you, Brian. Thanks very much. All the best.

00:38:07.400 Full comment is a post media podcast. My name's Brian Lilly guest host this week.

00:38:11.400 The episode was produced by Andre Proulx. The theme music is by Bryce Hall.

00:38:16.120 Kevin Libin is the executive producer. Remember, you can subscribe to full comment on Apple podcasts, Google, Spotify, and Amazon music.

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00:38:41.400 Thank you.

Full Comment - December 05, 2022

Interview with the lieutenant general cancelled for speaking unwokely

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