Full Comment - Iran’s ‘revolution in the making’ isn’t just about hijabs

00:00:00.000 Hello, I'm Anthony Fury. Thank you for joining us for the latest episode of Full Common.

00:00:10.220 Please consider subscribing if you haven't done so already.

00:00:13.280 What is unfolding in Iran right now? Here in North America, we see social media videos of

00:00:18.760 people taking to the streets in protest in large numbers. They're chanting for an end to the

00:00:23.700 current regime. Women are throwing off the coverings that the government says they must wear.

00:00:28.820 And the spark that lit the fire? Reports of a young woman who was killed while in police custody,

00:00:34.820 taken in by the morality police for not covering her hair. But the government says in response that

00:00:40.120 they are not going to tolerate these protests, calling them chaos. And while the state places

00:00:44.740 the number of persons killed in protests so far at around 40, according to state media,

00:00:48.860 human rights groups place that number much higher. Now the protests have swept dozens of cities and

00:00:54.080 seem to pose the greatest threat to the stability of the Iranian Islamic regime in many years.

00:00:59.740 So will things peter out in the days ahead? Will the government crack down like never before?

00:01:05.060 Or will we see regime change? Our guest today is Alireza Jafarzadeh. He's the deputy director of the

00:01:12.140 National Council of Resistance of Iran's U.S. Representative Office, which is an Iranian dissident

00:01:17.160 organization. And he's the author of the book, The Iran Threat. He joins us now from Washington,

00:01:22.100 D.C. Alireza, thanks very much for joining us today. Thank you so much, Anthony. Pleasure to be

00:01:27.400 on your show. Great to have you on the program. And the first question I want to put to you is just

00:01:31.720 how would you describe what we're seeing right now in the streets of Iran? If people ask what's going

00:01:37.920 on there right now, what do you tell them? Well, you know, what you see in the Iranian streets all

00:01:44.900 over the country is basically an explosion of the sentiment and the feeling of a nation that has been

00:01:54.780 suppressed for 43 years. And they were just looking for an opportunity to express that. They desire regime

00:02:06.320 change, the overthrow of the entirety of this regime. No matter how things start, the end goal is actually

00:02:15.940 the issue. As people were chanting, you mentioned, you know, the death of Mahsa Amini, the 22-year-old girl

00:02:25.340 who was brutally murdered while she was in the custody of the police. And she wasn't even an activist. Yet,

00:02:35.020 and that became actually a trigger. And then you saw the explosive state of the society in action.

00:02:45.640 And it's, you know, the protests spread all over the country. As we speak, 166 cities have been engulfed

00:02:55.300 in the protests since it started. It has extended to all 31 provinces of the country. And over, in our estimate,

00:03:04.360 over 300 people have been killed. About 15,000 have been arrested. And the protests continue. Today is

00:03:11.420 the 14th day. Wow. And I know I said in the introduction, and you said it as well, that this

00:03:16.360 young lady, the 22-year-old, she was killed while in police custody. The police, their formal statement

00:03:20.860 is they say, no, she died suffering heart failure. She had a heart attack while she was in the detention

00:03:25.580 center. And I guess these people taking to the streets are just saying, like, we don't buy it. I guess,

00:03:30.700 are they accustomed to hearing of people dying in prison in detention centers and get told a story

00:03:36.120 like this? Oh, they, you know, they just had a heart attack or what have you. And now people,

00:03:39.500 they're too skeptical. Well, you know, the people of Iran know this regime very well. And they lie to

00:03:48.060 their teeth. And it doesn't, you know, it doesn't matter what the issue is. They downed a Ukrainian

00:03:55.000 passenger plane with all the passengers on board. And they still don't admit that they have done it,

00:04:01.980 or, you know, they did it purposely, or they want to, you know, they're arresting people who were

00:04:06.900 protesting that. You know, there is a massacre in 1988 of 30,000 political prisoners. It's well

00:04:14.040 documented. Some of the most senior officials within the government, including the number two

00:04:19.380 person in the regime at the time in 1988, you know, Hussein Ali Montaziri, protested that,

00:04:26.320 talked about it. There is audio tape. There's evidence. Yet the regime says, you know,

00:04:31.700 it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's lie.

00:04:36.660 Sorry, 30,000? Was that the number you said? 30,000 people killed as political prisoners?

00:04:42.260 Yes. You know, in 1988, when the regime was in big trouble at the time, and Khomeini, the, the,

00:04:50.220 the previous supreme leader and the founder of this regime, wanted to get rid of all those who were

00:04:56.740 opposing the government. And there was obviously a leading organization, a leading movement that was

00:05:05.500 gaining, increasing the momentum and popularity among the population, known as the Mujahideen Akhal or

00:05:12.660 the MEK. They are Muslims, but they're diametrically, their views are immediately opposite to the Islamic

00:05:19.040 extremist mentality of the Ayatollahs. And Khomeini, then supreme leader, issued a fatwa, a religious decree,

00:05:26.080 saying anyone in, who is in any way associated with them, and remains a steadfast in just basically

00:05:32.880 even supporting them, they should die. And they formed a committee, because of four people,

00:05:41.360 to speak with every single prisoner and ask them one question, if they still believed in that

00:05:47.200 organization or not. And if they said yes, they would end up in the other, you know, hallway,

00:05:53.920 and they would get executed. One of the members of that four, you know, four member committee was

00:06:00.160 Ibrahim Raisi, who is now the president of the Iran regime. So this is a history of, of lies of this

00:06:07.200 regime when it comes to their nuclear weapons program, is when it comes to their terrorism,

00:06:12.640 when it comes to human rights issues, to, on every single issue they lie. So it doesn't matter

00:06:17.680 what the regime says, or what the, its explanation is, the people know the truth. The people know that

00:06:23.840 that girl, like so many other women and girls in Iran, was murdered. And that's why they're in the

00:06:30.800 streets, not just for her, but for everybody else who's been killed like that.

00:06:34.960 Yeah. Well, and that was going to be my next question for you. I mean, when they see this

00:06:38.800 incident of this girl being killed, sometimes you have a protest that erupts in a country,

00:06:43.280 a city, because something like this happens. And it's a, it's a rare incident. It's a one-off,

00:06:47.600 and you take to the streets to say, I disapprove of this, it better not happen again. But what you're

00:06:51.200 saying is, this incident is just all too common. The experience of, I guess, a girl both being stopped

00:06:56.720 by morality police, and then subsequently being injured, or being killed. It's just like,

00:07:01.280 it's almost like the straw that breaks the camel's back for the people right now?

00:07:04.320 Exactly. That's what, what, what it is exactly, you know, because they have, the Iran is like,

00:07:10.960 the society is like a powder keg. And, you know, anything can trigger it. And, and, you know,

00:07:17.040 this isn't the first time that there are protests. There were protests in the past that also, and each

00:07:22.160 of them were triggered with something different. But what doesn't change is that, you know, the,

00:07:28.320 the level of resentment and the frustration and the anger of the people against the regime,

00:07:37.280 what actually does change is that it actually becomes deeper and deeper. And there is more

00:07:42.960 resolution, more desire on the part of the people to end the rule of the ayatollahs. One of the slogans,

00:07:49.280 among the many slogans that people have been chanting, is that Mahsa is a, is a pretext.

00:07:56.720 The, it's the entirety of the regime that is the target. And, and, and I think that explains very

00:08:04.000 well. And that's why in a matter of hours, the protests turned into, you know, death to Khamenei,

00:08:10.720 death to the dictator, um, you know, death to oppressors will be the Shah referring to the,

00:08:17.440 you know, the, the post dictator that was, uh, overthrown by the people back in 19, um, uh, you

00:08:23.920 know, uh, 1979. And then they say, you know, death to the oppressor be the Shah or the leader,

00:08:31.200 the Supreme leader. Uh, so the, that's why you can see practically, this is a revolution in the making.

00:08:37.520 And, and, and it's so widespread. It's not in one area. It's not limited to a certain sector of the

00:08:43.600 society. Everybody except the, you know, the core group that supports and, and maintains the regime

00:08:50.000 in power. Everybody else is opposed to the, to the regime and they want change.

00:08:53.760 If you can take us back to basics for a minute, talk about life in Iran, Iranian society,

00:08:58.800 the regime. I know we've established the, the, the murders of political dissidents,

00:09:03.440 the strict rules for women. What also is it about life in Iran right now and what the regime is doing

00:09:09.760 that people don't like? You know, Iran is, um, is a large country with 80, uh, plus 85 million,

00:09:18.000 almost a million population. It has a very young, um, population, about two thirds of the population

00:09:25.840 live below, uh, the age of, you know, 35. Um, a lot of the people, you know, vast majority of them

00:09:33.280 well-educated. They're like, you know, millions of college educated kids and, uh, and, and Iran has a,

00:09:39.760 uh, uh, you know, it's, it's a very resourceful country. It has the, the best strategic location,

00:09:45.440 um, uh, there it has oil. It has, you know, oil is not the only resource it has. It has, it has,

00:09:52.880 it's a really, really rich country. It's not a poor country. Um, yet because of the rule of the Ayatollahs,

00:10:00.240 um, the majority of the Iranian population live below the poverty line and, and, uh, you know,

00:10:08.240 a good portion of the society lives below the absolute poverty line. Why? Because the

00:10:15.120 resources of the country, the economy is controlled by a very small group of people,

00:10:22.000 the mullahs, the ayatollahs, the clerics, um, and those who keep them in power, namely the military

00:10:29.200 that they formed known as the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps or the IRGC, which was formed right

00:10:36.240 after the revolution in 1979 in parallel to the regular army that was inherited from the time of the

00:10:42.800 Shah. And, and that's why people see like every day they get poorer and then every day these, you

00:10:49.520 know, rich mullahs, they, they dominate everything. And then in order to keep the, the divide, uh,

00:10:56.160 they, they suppress them more. They, you know, they dominate, uh, everyone by sheer repression.

00:11:01.760 And then they have this Islamic extremist ideology that they want to dominate, impose on everybody else.

00:11:08.240 You know, the, uh, a vast majority of Iranian population are Muslims, but they're not Islamic

00:11:12.640 extremists. They're not fundamentalists. Um, uh, you know, except those who are ruling. That's why

00:11:19.120 this deep divide between the people and, and the regime is actually what's causing all of these things.

00:11:26.640 And, and, and this gap cannot be closed until the ayatollahs are overthrown.

00:11:30.640 We'll be back with more full comment in just a moment. Alareza, what are the specific requests

00:11:36.800 of the protesters on the ground right now? I know you said of the importance for some people of

00:11:40.960 overthrowing the regime, lots of people chanting death to the dictator. Is it, is it really that,

00:11:45.840 that raw energy and emotion, or are there some other specific political requests that are coming

00:11:50.400 forward right now? You know, if you look at the, uh, the trend of the protests in Iran, there were

00:11:57.680 many occasions that the requests of the protesters were limited to a certain subject. For instance,

00:12:04.960 back in 2009, there was, you know, presidential elections, there was a dispute. And then some

00:12:10.880 people poured into the streets asking like, where is my vote? And they believed that, you know,

00:12:16.480 their candidate should have won rather than the one that was declared. Um, and later on, they were,

00:12:22.880 you know, back in 2017, actually, the protests started with the rise of the price of, uh, of chicken.

00:12:31.120 And, and people protested that and talking about the, the level of inflation, the economic hardship,

00:12:36.720 uh, wanting the government to do certain, take certain steps to, to resolve it. In 2019 and November,

00:12:46.000 2019, overnight, the regime raised the price of gasoline three times higher. And, you know,

00:12:52.560 that triggered a protest. Uh, but this time it's none of those things. It's about like the whole thing.

00:13:00.080 People feel it doesn't matter what the problem is, whether you're a teacher, you're a worker,

00:13:06.640 you're a student, you're a woman, uh, you know, the, the, all the problems that the, the people are

00:13:13.200 feeling are seeing and, and sensing it, that there's only one solution for it. And that's

00:13:18.480 change. And, and I think that's the very important characteristic of this round of protests that is

00:13:25.200 so focused, look at the slogans. Um, it's, it's entirely focused on the Supreme leader himself,

00:13:32.160 you know, Ali Khamenei, um, and you know, the whole dictatorship, the whole system, there's a

00:13:37.840 theocracy and then rejecting any form of dictatorship, you know, whether the, the past dictatorship of the

00:13:43.760 shop, which is, you know, long ago, but, but right now, and, and that's why, uh, I think, uh, this really

00:13:50.960 stands out. And, and also the other characteristic that, that catches your eye, if you look at the video

00:13:57.600 clips, um, you see a very large participation of women, uh, not just, you know, in, in participating in the

00:14:05.840 protest, but they're taking a leadership role. There are like, you know, right in the forefront.

00:14:12.000 They're the ones who dare the state security forces and, um, they have no fear.

00:14:19.200 And there are men supporting them. There are men behind the women saying, yes,

00:14:23.080 take the leadership role.

00:14:24.800 Yes, absolutely. Um, because, you know, and the reason is, is that because, you know, it didn't just

00:14:31.280 happen overnight because like, you know, one person got killed or, or, or, or there were new laws or

00:14:36.480 anything like that. There are 40 plus years of the resistance, um, against this regime. And there is

00:14:44.480 organized, uh, force, um, fighting the ayatollahs, opposing them. You know, the, the main opposition

00:14:50.640 movement, the Mujahideen Khali Mende, the MEK, um, is, um, you know, women play a very,

00:14:57.760 very important role in that, in this movement. In the past, um, 30 plus years, all of the key

00:15:04.000 members of their leadership are women. And then they are part of the, a parliament in exile called

00:15:09.600 the National Council of Resistance of Iran. You know, we are there that, that, that the office of

00:15:15.360 the NCRI in Washington, um, majority of the members of this parliament in exile are women.

00:15:22.000 It's headed by a woman, Mrs. Maryam Rajavi. Um, so when you have in a country, which is whose

00:15:29.680 ideology is based on misogyny, you have a movement that is opposing it, um, that is fully respectful

00:15:37.920 of the right of women. And they have women in the leadership, no matter how much the regime

00:15:43.120 suppresses the population. This movement has, has been able to create a culture, a tradition,

00:15:50.160 and to show the women, to show the men that this is the right way to do it. And, um, and the

00:15:56.480 misogyny that the Ayatollahs are exerting on the population, um, is diametrically opposed to

00:16:04.240 what this movement is offering the society. And that's why the society picks it up. And that's why

00:16:09.200 you see this very large, extensive participation of, of women. And, and, you know, and, and there's also,

00:16:16.480 I mentioned the organized resistance, you know, inside Iran, you, if you look at the, the tapes,

00:16:21.120 you see that it's not that, you know, people don't know what they're doing. You know, they're,

00:16:25.360 they're so organized. They, they know exactly how to confront the revolutionary guards, how to plan

00:16:31.280 things, how to ensure continuity. You know, in 2019, um, even though the regime killed 1500 people,

00:16:38.560 but in a, with about two or three days, they managed to crush the, um, um, the uprisings.

00:16:44.240 This time, this is the 14th day as we were speaking right now, it's still going on.

00:16:48.880 Uh, so that shows that, you know, the, the momentum is on our side. Um, the, uh, organizational

00:16:56.160 capabilities of this movement has, has really been elevated and, uh, we're a lot more hopeful

00:17:03.120 than we have ever been to see change. Wow. And what is your indication of how the regime is feeling

00:17:08.880 right now? Because to your earlier point, the person who is now president was a part of these,

00:17:13.040 these death squads approving the deaths of what was it? 30,000 individuals. So this is clearly

00:17:18.240 a leader who at least back then was not sheepish about, about murdering his own citizens. Um,

00:17:24.640 they've got to be thinking of how aggressive they should be in their response.

00:17:29.280 Well, that's an excellent point you raise because, um, honestly speaking, when the, uh,

00:17:35.600 the new round of protests, um, in the past few years that started like in late 2017, early 2018 started,

00:17:44.000 they supremely their harmony felt, okay, well, you know, there's trouble coming and these

00:17:50.000 demonstrations are expanding. They're continuing. Uh, we gotta, you know, do something about it. Uh,

00:17:56.160 well, there were two ways he could resolve it. He could, you know, uh, comply with the demands of

00:18:01.120 the population in terms of the economy, in terms of everything, uh, or just to bring more repression,

00:18:07.600 which he chose the second one. So he decided to install the most radical elements in the, uh,

00:18:14.640 highest positions within the regime, give even more authority to the IRGC or the Islamic

00:18:21.600 revolutionary guards, both in terms of the economy, but also, you know, the things that they run.

00:18:26.960 And, uh, when the time came for the presidential elections last year, um, Khamenei handpicked,

00:18:34.400 um, Ibrahim Raisi, the guy who, you know, eventually became president because he thought exactly as you

00:18:41.440 said, this is the guy that is going to leave no mercy to the population. This is the guy that can

00:18:46.960 ensure that those protests will not restart. And, you know, he's going to frighten everyone.

00:18:53.600 And that was the whole purpose behind Raisi. You know, Raisi had no experience of running anything

00:19:00.560 since the age of 19. Um, you know, he was like the deputy prosecutor of Karaj, which is not a small

00:19:07.920 town. It's the fourth most populated city in Iran. At the age of 20, he became the prosecutor. And in

00:19:13.680 his twenties, you know, he was sitting on the death commission. All his life was killing people. He

00:19:18.560 doesn't know how to run anything. Um, uh, yet they installed him as the president, hoping that this

00:19:25.840 will prevent the restart of the protests. And now look what we're seeing. Uh, it's, it's a, it's a lot

00:19:32.640 deeper level of anger by the people against the regime. The fear factor is gone. That's why I think,

00:19:39.440 you know, that's an important indication that the plan of the supreme leader of the regime has badly

00:19:45.280 failed so far. It doesn't mean that they're not going to kill more people, you know, going forward.

00:19:50.560 They've already killed over 300. Um, based on our information, the actual figures, as you said

00:19:56.320 earlier, could be a lot higher, but I think they have a very difficult time this time in dealing with

00:20:01.920 this population. Uh, the ability of the regime to suppress people and deal with them the way they

00:20:08.880 were dealing before has become more limited now. Um, they're running thin, uh, in terms of their

00:20:16.240 forces. Um, you know, in Tehran, the capital two days ago, there were 30 different locations in the

00:20:23.040 capital that were simultaneously, you know, protests that's going on. Uh, what are you going to do with

00:20:28.720 it? You can't, they can't consolidate their forces and attack one place. They can't bring in forces from

00:20:34.000 other cities because there are protests going on in those cities as well. And that's why it's a

00:20:39.760 dilemma for the regime. And, you know, and that's why we, you know, we're, we're a lot more hopeful,

00:20:45.280 but also we have to be very, uh, cognizant of the tactics the regime may use. Speaking of tactics,

00:20:51.440 what are the tactics the protesters are using to be so organized? You talked about the planning that's

00:20:56.160 involved. I know in Iran, they would prefer that internet, social media, text messages not be

00:21:02.240 used and as widely available for this sort of stuff. What is the role that that technology

00:21:06.640 is playing or is not playing right now in terms of how they're getting the message out there and

00:21:10.960 how the regime might want to try and clamp down on that? Right. Well, that's a, that's a great

00:21:15.680 question. You know, um, uh, before getting into levels of communications, you know, uh, which is a

00:21:21.280 very important factor, uh, you to bring about change, you need to have people on the ground and you need

00:21:27.280 to be able to practically, um, uh, be able to organize them to have, you know, people taking the

00:21:34.560 lead. Uh, and, and, you know, nothing can happen by itself, especially when you want to, uh, uh, shape

00:21:41.360 a revolution against the worst, the most horrific, uh, theocracy in the history of our country.

00:21:48.400 Um, so that's why since a few years ago, the main opposition, the ABK, they started forming,

00:21:55.040 uh, what they called resistance units. Um, these are not clandestine, you know, guerrilla groups or

00:22:00.800 anything like that. These are people, you know, who, um, operate, you know, in their own profession.

00:22:07.440 They're like students, uh, workers, whatever they are. Um, but they, um, they formed them in these

00:22:14.320 cells of like, you know, two or three or four people, each of them, and they work together.

00:22:19.280 And, uh, their, their role is to, uh, break the fear of the population to, uh, hit the symbols

00:22:28.480 of authority of the regime. For instance, everywhere you go, there are posters of the Supreme

00:22:32.960 leader Khamenei or the terror master that was killed, you know, uh, Qasem Soleimani. So what

00:22:38.960 these, um, resistance were doing, especially since 2014, that's about eight years, they were just

00:22:46.240 burning those pictures, tearing down those posters. So when people walk around, they see a lot of those

00:22:52.160 burned pictures. What, what it does, it just shows the population. Well, you know, this regime has a lot

00:22:58.000 of people who are opposed to it. Um, and it cannot protect everything. And then they, they erected

00:23:03.760 like the statue of these regime leaders in the main, main squares, they would go and destroy those,

00:23:09.520 those, those statues. So over the years, they built, uh, this, this structure, this network,

00:23:16.720 and they started expanding it. And that's why when these protests started, um, you know,

00:23:21.760 this time in September, it was really the, the main role was with these resistance units, um,

00:23:28.800 that were just ensuring that the messaging is correct. You, you stay on the message and then

00:23:34.560 you don't run, run away. You don't lose the opportunity. You seize the moment. You confront

00:23:39.280 the revolutionary guards. Uh, you, you decide, okay, what do we do now? You know, which part that you,

00:23:45.520 you're going to attack with where you're going to lead your, you know, you ensure continuity of these

00:23:50.880 protests. And that's exactly what has happened. Now, in terms of communications, um, it's crucial,

00:23:56.880 uh, because, you know, if you can't communicate, then, then everything will be disrupted. One of the,

00:24:02.960 several tools that I've been using, um, in terms of social media, one of them is an application called

00:24:08.480 telegram, which, you know, some people may be familiar or may not be familiar. It's, it's sort of

00:24:14.320 like a combination of, of texts and, and, and, you know, you can, you can, you can actually, uh,

00:24:20.720 send, uh, video clips, you can send pictures, you can stay, do messaging. But the good thing about

00:24:26.080 this is that it's, you know, end to end encrypted. Um, however, you know, the regime wanted them to

00:24:32.720 have their servers in Iran. So this way they could penetrate. Uh, they didn't accept that. So they have

00:24:38.160 no servers in Iran. What the regime does, they block telegram. And then, you know, there are other

00:24:44.000 tools that, uh, you know, similar, other social media tools that similar to that, um, but, um,

00:24:50.320 but that are encrypted. But what they did, they, the regime basically shut down the internet. Uh,

00:24:56.880 this way they can, you know, cut off the communications, but you cannot shut the entire internet

00:25:02.320 because their own operation is based on the internet. Uh, you can do it, you know, in certain areas,

00:25:07.680 you can do it in few hours, but you cannot shut down the internet for the entire time in the entire

00:25:13.760 country. So what the regime has done, and that's what they did in 2019 and what they're doing right

00:25:18.800 now in certain areas of Tehran, when they, they know there's protests going on, they immediately

00:25:25.040 shut down the internet. And, and that makes it very difficult for communication, but people are,

00:25:30.960 are, are learning, you know, how to go around it. And, and recently, um, Elon Musk announced that,

00:25:37.360 you know, he's going to, uh, provide his Starlink, um, you know, internet access, uh, uh, you know,

00:25:44.160 it may take a while before they can actually provide it to the, um, to the activists, uh,

00:25:49.120 inside Iran, but that's, that's a challenge. But so far we've been able to, to find ways to overcome

00:25:55.600 that. Speaking about providing support from America and from other countries, I know during past

00:26:01.520 uprisings just a few years ago, there was, I think hope and energy that there would be greater success

00:26:06.720 and that more people would come and support. I know when we're watching stories of, of turmoil

00:26:11.280 around the world and, and human rights abuses from, from regimes on their own people, there's often

00:26:16.560 talk about, about getting involved to some degree, intervening, offering support. What should be

00:26:21.680 happening in that regard? How should other countries be, be thinking about this and just regular folks

00:26:26.480 watching these atrocities, hearing reports of people being killed by their own government,

00:26:30.400 what should they call on their governments to do? Well, you know, uh, the, the first and most

00:26:36.800 important factor is that, you know, each government should understand that this is not business as

00:26:44.640 usual. You cannot just, you know, uh, deal with this regime as though, yeah, they have been in power

00:26:50.880 over 43 years and they may be in power another 43 years. So let's just, you know, continue our

00:26:56.720 relationship with the Ayatollahs. No, this regime is, is hated by its own population, not by, by a small

00:27:04.480 portion of the population, by the vast majority of the population. Um, it's illegitimate, it's repressive,

00:27:11.600 it's, it's the worst leading state sponsor of terrorism. There's no justification whatsoever to have any

00:27:18.800 kind of dealings with this regime that would benefit it. That's number one. Um, second, if that's the

00:27:24.960 case, then, then you cannot have like separating the issues saying, okay, we put out the statement

00:27:30.480 condemning the human rights violations in Iran, but we offer, you know, negotiations and dialogue on

00:27:37.600 other matters. We're going to relieve sanctions. We're going to provide them money and resources.

00:27:42.880 We're going to have business. And because the business in Iran is predominantly controlled by the

00:27:48.240 Revolutionary Guards. Whatever you do that benefits the regime directly benefits the repressive forces.

00:27:54.160 Whether money that goes into Iran, it ends up with the Revolutionary Guards. You don't want to do that

00:27:59.600 at this time. And third, um, there has to be support for the people on the ground. And when I say support,

00:28:07.840 I'm not talking about boots on the ground or even appropriating money or anything of that nature.

00:28:13.680 Uh, the most significant support for the people of Iran is actually a political support, um, for what

00:28:22.000 they're doing. Um, if they are being confronted by the Revolutionary Guards, they, they, you know,

00:28:27.840 they, uh, try to push them back. They, they're doing actions based on self-defense that has to be

00:28:34.000 supported by the outside world. Um, there has to be unequal statements by the governments, whether it's

00:28:43.040 Canada, whether it's United States, whether it's, you know, members of the European Union, that the

00:28:48.640 Iranian people have the right to overthrow the regime, their resistance, their opposition, their

00:28:55.760 fight against this regime is actually a legitimate fight and it must be supported the same way that,

00:29:02.560 you know, when Russia invaded Ukraine, the whole world came lined up and supported Ukraine saying,

00:29:09.520 you know, give them whatever they need. Um, even, you know, members of their, their own parliament

00:29:14.400 in Ukraine were just taking up arms, women, you know, taking arms and defending themselves and

00:29:19.600 everybody else supported that. Um, this should be the case in the case of Iran, you know, these young

00:29:25.360 people, uh, who are confronting with bare hand, um, against the Revolutionary Guards, they need to be

00:29:31.680 supported. And, and, you know, whatever the, the form of resistance takes up in the future,

00:29:37.280 depending on what the regime does, all of that needs to be, to, to be supported. And of course,

00:29:42.960 one other way to help them, you know, support them in addition to the political statements and their

00:29:47.600 support is actually give them access for communications, you know, like the internet,

00:29:53.600 that, that's an important element. Um, every single person that the regime kills, it has to pay the price

00:30:01.600 for it. You cannot allow them to kill, you know, several hundred people. And then after a while,

00:30:06.720 put out a statement, you know, asking the regime to respect human rights. That's not enough. You

00:30:12.400 have to be very specific. You have to target them. The regime represents, cannot represent the, the

00:30:18.080 country anywhere in the world, no forums, no international forums, no athletic forums, nothing

00:30:24.080 the same way that, you know, a lot of countries are treating Russia, for instance, like that,

00:30:28.720 or they treated apartheid, you know, in South Africa. That's the tactic they need to use.

00:30:34.400 There's a bit of a minor controversy in Canada right now, in regards to the Islamic Revolutionary

00:30:39.120 Guard Corps. I want to get your thoughts on this. A number of years ago, 10 years ago,

00:30:42.240 the former conservative government designated the Al-Quds Force a terrorist organization, which,

00:30:47.360 as you know, is a branch of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. There was a debate about whether

00:30:52.640 the whole IRGC should be made a terror organization here. And we did have a vote in the House of

00:30:57.840 Commons, and pretty much everybody voted for it. It passed a majority, even some of the liberal

00:31:02.160 government. But Justin Trudeau's government has never designated it. And even now is saying, well,

00:31:07.920 no, we can't really. It's just kind of up to the security agency. We can't tell them how to do their

00:31:12.560 job. So, you know, maybe they'll do it. You're like, well, okay, they haven't done it yet. And also,

00:31:16.880 like, let's be honest, that's not true. I think you can really push them to do it if you want.

00:31:20.480 So it's this odd situation where people think it should be done, but it's still not being done.

00:31:25.840 What do you think of all of that? And should we be doing this? Would it be a meaningful thing?

00:31:30.720 I think it's a meaningful thing to designate the IRGC, the Minister of Intelligence,

00:31:37.280 the Quds Force, all of these repressive agencies of the Iran regime as terrorists,

00:31:42.640 you know, very clearly without even thinking about any of the consequences. Because you really want

00:31:51.600 to send a strong signal to the regime that there is a price to pay. And I know those who refuse to

00:31:57.440 designate IRGC as terrorists, they're thinking about economic ties with Iran. They're thinking,

00:32:03.040 okay, a lot of those institutions are controlled by the Revolutionary Guards. So this will disrupt

00:32:09.760 some of their economic dealings. Well, that's exactly what you should be doing. The whole purpose

00:32:14.640 of the designation is to make the designated entity pay the price. And if the entire economy is

00:32:23.600 predominantly controlled by the Revolutionary Guards against the population, you know,

00:32:28.800 why don't you want to designate them as terrorists and deprive them from the resources that they're

00:32:34.640 going to use? And by the way, where does the money end up? It doesn't end up, you know, in the pocket of

00:32:39.760 the people of Iran, the money goes to Syria, to Lebanon, to Yemen, you know, to funding those proxy

00:32:46.640 groups in Iraq and elsewhere. That's why, you know, I think everywhere, not just Canada, every country in

00:32:55.120 the world should designate the IRGC and all of the other entities associated with it as terrorists.

00:33:02.880 A really important conversation. And Alareza, we thank you so much for informing us of everything

00:33:07.440 that's going on on the ground and the international perspective. We've really appreciated your insights

00:33:12.160 today. Thank you so much. Full Comment is a post-media podcast. I'm Anthony Fury. This episode

00:33:18.720 was produced by Andre Pru with theme music by Bryce Hall. Kevin Libin is the executive producer. You

00:33:24.720 can subscribe to Full Comment on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, and Amazon Music. You can listen

00:33:30.160 through the app or your Alexa-enabled devices. You can help us by giving us a rating or a review

00:33:34.640 and by telling your friends about us. Thanks for listening.

Full Comment - October 03, 2022

Iran’s ‘revolution in the making’ isn’t just about hijabs

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