Sir John A. MacDonald was Canada s first Prime Minister, and one of the most influential men in her history. But was he also a racist, sexist, and xenophobe? Author and academic Patrice Duttill paints a different picture of MacDonald in one of his most tumultuous years, when he paints a picture of him as an enlightened and constructive public figure.
00:01:45.540Thanks for listening and if you enjoy this episode, if you enjoy this podcast, please hit the subscribe button so we can keep the good conversations going.
00:01:54.260Today we're talking about Sir John A. and his true legacy, a legacy that's now under attack.
00:01:59.760Statues have been taken down in places like Kingston, Charlottetown, Victoria, and Picton where he practiced law.
00:02:05.840Here in Toronto at Queen's Park, the Ontario legislature, the statue of Sir John A. is boarded up at the request of the Speaker.
00:02:12.060And a legislative committee is conducting a study on what should be done.
00:02:16.560And in Kingston at his former home Bellevue house, it's run by Parks Canada.
00:02:21.980Well, they reopened this year with a rewritten history that focuses on the sexism and racism of the man and the country he built.
00:02:30.420In his new book, Sir John A. MacDonald and the Apocalyptic Year, 1885, author and academic Patrice Duttill writes a book that looks like MacDonald in one of his most tumultuous years.
00:02:41.260He paints a different picture, though.
00:02:43.020He describes a man who, for all his sins, was the most enlightened and constructive public figure of early Canadian history.
00:02:50.960Patrice Duttill is a professor in the Department of Politics and Public Administration at Toronto Metropolitan University.
00:02:57.720He joins me now to talk about the book.
00:03:02.060You've written many books, many papers about Canadian history, but specifically about Sir John A., and I get the feeling you're not done yet.
00:03:10.640Why so many books and papers on MacDonald?
00:03:26.760My area of predilection, my area of interest is usually the years before the First World War, because they're utterly fascinating.
00:03:35.440But John A. really came to my attention in a new way when Richard Gwynne published his two-volume biography, you know, almost 20 years ago now.
00:03:46.100And I thought there was something else here that needed to be told.
00:03:51.800And so I devoted a good portion of my research to Sir John A. MacDonald.
00:03:56.320I published an edited book 10 years ago on Sir John A., new ideas, bringing in new scholars, new scholars and new thinking.
00:04:06.340And then I plowed into another book on the prime ministerial power, its origins, and again, focused on MacDonald, but also on his most important successors, Wilfrid Laurier and Robert Borden.
00:04:19.800And yet, when I was doing that, 1885 kept coming back.
00:05:32.060He wasn't a new politician at this point.
00:05:34.020I mean, he was well-established even before 1867, but he'd been in and out of the prime minister's office and was, just had a successful re-election in 1882.
00:05:45.360And all of these things came together at once.
00:05:47.880That must have been an incredibly stressful year.
00:06:19.540All these things, all these things that I'm going to talk about, that we're going to talk about, you know, about this book or anything else, they're all very contemporary.
00:06:27.740This is stuff that Trudeau is looking at today that John A. would have recognized.
00:06:32.580You know, it's, it's, it's, he's going to Britain and he comes back and, of course, he has a, there's a big party for him in Toronto.
00:06:38.820And there's an even bigger party for him in Montreal in early January of 1885.
00:06:46.140And the fact is that he's been in politics since the 1840s.
00:06:50.040So, I mean, it's, it's a long career and it's a lot of words and it's a lot of, it's a lot of policy.
00:06:56.880And, you know, when we're, when we're, when we're looking at his career, we can't forget that he may have made mistakes.
00:07:02.140Yes, but he also accomplished a great deal.
00:07:04.080For any politician in any given year, having just covered a lot of them going through the pandemic of the COVID pandemic, you know, smallpox was deadly at the time.
00:07:30.820So, what, tell us about the smallpox outbreak and, you know, give us the backstory on that and then how we reacted and how it affected him.
00:07:41.380Well, here we get into issues of federalism.
00:07:44.140So, in those days, issues around public health were mostly the jurisdiction of the provincial government.
00:07:53.520And what happened in 1885 is that the, the, the virus, the bacterium worked its way through the, the train lines and came from the U.S. apparently, came from the U.S. and landed in Montreal.
00:09:23.980He was a racist who wanted to, you know, just assimilate and take over.
00:09:30.820Well, this is where I think that my book makes a contribution in demonstrating how, if you look at McDonald's real policies, you may come to a very different conclusion.
00:09:39.580That there is a great deal of enlightenment in the approach John A. MacDonald had to governance.
00:12:06.160In the 1880s, he's got a particular problem.
00:12:09.220And it really comes down to the buffalo.
00:12:16.380I mean, I don't want to be reductionist here, but the whole crisis in the West really comes out of this natural catastrophe, which is the disappearance of the buffalo.
00:12:27.000And most of the buffalo were eradicated by the Americans.
00:12:30.140As they traveled through the frontier and, you know, made their way into the American states, they were slaughtered for their meat, for their hides, and for sport, merely for sport.
00:13:25.800I mean, it's impossible to exaggerate.
00:13:27.560Here you have peoples who had migrated, you know, from the Hudson's Bay area, had followed the tracks of the Hudson's Bay Company to hunt for beaver furs, literally stuck now in the prairies, roaming around, looking for buffalo, and needing to survive.
00:13:50.100So, of course, the government of Canada signs various treaties to help the indigenous people settle.
00:14:00.680It's actually started by John A. in the late 1869.
00:14:04.440But in the 1870s, it's actually continued by the McKenzie government.
00:14:07.820So, McDonald comes into power in 1878, returns to power in 1878, and he sees that the crisis, the hunger crisis, has not been looked after by the liberals.
00:14:21.440Well, my book documents the amount of expenditures, the amount of money, John A. McDonald and his government dedicated to helping the indigenous people survive.
00:15:11.300You point out using politicians in their own words, and I should say, one of the interesting things about your book is you don't edit their words.
00:15:22.260You put them in and you say right at the beginning, look, some of the language in this book is going to be offensive to modern ears.
00:15:42.680When he refers to people as Indians instead of indigenous, you leave that in.
00:15:47.360But you quote people extensively, and, you know, as much as people will look back now with revisionist viewpoints on the residential schools, it's well documented that the opposition liberals complained loudly that you're spending too much on the Indians.
00:16:09.320Stop spending so much money on those Indians.
00:16:11.520Yeah, and it's actually in that context that McDonald, you know, retorts, and it's always quoted back to him, but it's quoted in the wrong context.
00:16:18.960You know, yeah, we're keeping them half-starved.
00:16:21.100He's trying to, he's in the House and he's saying to the liberals, look, we're doing our best.
00:16:24.340We're not going to let them die, but we are keeping them half-starved.
00:16:29.460You know, the idea that at least they can survive and live another day.
00:16:32.880They're not going to be, you know, they're not going to be, you know, they're not going to have full bellies, but at least they'll survive.
00:16:38.600And again, it's important to remember the context here.
00:16:41.420We're not delivering food, you know, by FedEx in refrigerated trucks.
00:17:35.660It's Sir John A. MacDonald and his conservative government in the 1880s.
00:17:39.000So I wanted to ask you about that, that it should be widely known, but it's not talked about now in the current narrative that Canada, under Sir John A. MacDonald, was seen as a refuge for many indigenous peoples coming up from the U.S.
00:18:13.920And yet, as I've written elsewhere, it's utterly understandable because we've now had two generations, including most of the politicians who are working today, two generations who have never heard of Sir John A. MacDonald because we don't cover it in school.
00:18:27.800I mean, you have to be of a certain age to remember the days when Pierre Burton had a fabulous series on the CBC in the mid-1970s.
00:18:39.240So you have to be at least 64, 65 years old to remember seeing that series on the CBC.
00:19:07.040Otherwise, we do not cover Sir John A. MacDonald in high school.
00:19:11.100And as I've pointed out many times before, and I'll say it again ad nauseum, there are only three provinces in this country where a credit in Canadian history is required to graduate high school.
00:19:20.780In most of Canada, you do not need a Canadian history credit.
00:19:25.000You do not need to have to know Canadian history in order to get high school.
00:19:29.240Find me another country that is so ridiculous.
00:20:13.640The First World War was an extremely painful experience for our country, for our forefathers.
00:20:23.900But I think that to get Sir John A. MacDonald exposed to an adolescent mind, at least an adolescent mind, not a child of 11 or 12, might raise awareness, which would create a robustness that could resist the sloppy thinking that is now part of the narrative around Sir John A. MacDonald.
00:20:47.020Well, before we leave his Indigenous policies, this might explain what you've just said about it not being taught in schools, might explain why every time I raise the fact that Sir John A. extended the vote, extended the franchise, not only to women but to Indigenous, not everyone.
00:21:06.860But not everyone got the vote back then.
00:21:09.380He extended it to the Indigenous population to a degree.
00:22:20.040And he suspected that things were, you know, if you have an enemy party in government in New Brunswick or Nova Scotia, they're going to tinker with things and make sure that the conservatives don't vote or do whatever.
00:22:34.060You know, he was just very suspicious.
00:22:35.540And he thought it was just a matter of just common sense.
00:22:37.680And the Constitution provided for it that the federal government would look after the federal franchise.
00:22:42.580So, yeah, in 1885, he proposes that women be given the right to vote as long as they have the same material qualifications as a male.
00:22:53.960It's shot down by the conservatives and it's shot down by the liberals.
00:22:57.380He also proposes that indigenous men who meet the qualifications also be given the right to vote.
00:23:03.540This is at the time when Frog Lake is taking place.
00:23:07.780The Frog Lake Massacre is taking place in the Northwest where basically a number of indigenous warriors killed 10 people, 10 settlers in Saskatchewan.
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00:26:19.900Patrice, I mentioned off the top that, you know, all the statues taken down and here at Queen's Park, it's boarded up and who knows what will happen.
00:26:27.120What's remarkable to me is that nobody has noticed the statue to the men who went and fought.
00:26:31.200It's on the grounds of the legislature, of the men who went and fought in the 1885 rebellion for the government, recognizes battles like Cut Knife Hill and things like that.
00:26:41.540At once upon a time, putting down the rebellion was taught a certain way in English schools.
00:26:48.680I know how I was taught, but apparently if you were in Manitoba or Saskatchewan, especially in a French school, you were given a very different view of that history.
00:26:57.080How should we view it from your perspective as you look at the impact of the second rebellion in 1885 in McDonald's tumultuous year?
00:27:31.380He says that in this jurisdiction, the government of Canada has no authority.
00:27:36.020Now, I mean, I don't think it takes too much imagination, even today, to think that if somebody said, I am not recognizing Canada, I am seizing this territory, and then I'm going to kill policemen.
00:27:50.720I think that even today, the reaction would be very similar to what happened in 1885, namely that we will not put up with this kind of thing.
00:27:58.740The state, the authority of the state is being challenged directly, and the state has the obligation to defend its integrity.
00:28:08.840I don't think today would be different, but this is what happened in Saskatchewan in 1885.
00:32:49.680I mean, there's no, I mean, if you look at the accounts, there is no account of him being, you know, a drunk, out of his mind drunk, after the mid-1870s.
00:34:00.300And yet, as you say, nine of the 11 statues in Canada dedicated to Sir John A. MacDonald from 1895 onwards are now destroyed or in storage.
00:34:09.420There's only two left, and they're under police guard.
00:34:11.900The one that actually breaks my heart, other than the one at Queen's Park, was Picton.
00:34:16.920They had a fun statue of Sir John A. MacDonald standing next to the witness box, and it was in the area where he had practiced law, and the statue was of him at that age.
00:34:29.400And you could, you know, stand in the witness box and get your photo taken with him, which, of course, I did.
00:34:36.360I want to talk about the railroad and a couple of other things.
00:34:39.900But you've mentioned that a lot of Indigenous voters, when they got the vote, voted for him.
00:34:43.560Today, when we look at Quebec, people say, oh, conservatives will never do well in Quebec except around Quebec City.
00:34:51.620But you've got a chart on your website that shows that he was up and down in Quebec, but at times, including 1882, the election that had him in power in this time period, in this tumultuous year, he won the majority of seats in that province.
00:35:10.640Well, what's remarkable is that, and I developed that whole notion in my book, the reality is that in the election following the terrible year of 1885, Sir John A. MacDonald is handily re-elected and increases his vote in Quebec.
00:35:29.780So Quebec, which apparently was absolutely distraught by the death of Louis Riel, still supports Sir John A.
00:35:37.540And then in the last election, in 1891, he and his coalition will actually earn more than 50% of the vote.
00:35:46.060And that's against a francophone Quebecer, Wilfrid Laurier.
00:35:49.920So tell me that Sir John A. MacDonald was unpopular.
00:35:53.920And this came out of the report of the city of Montreal when they justified the tearing down of the statue.
00:36:35.600They knew that the government was not doing, you know, was not helping to protect their jobs.
00:36:40.500But in the 19th century, you would never expect the government of Canada to protect your job.
00:36:45.900Those people who remained clearly thought that Sir John A. MacDonald was still worth a vote after 20 years in power.
00:36:54.040With all the terrible things that happened in 1885 with the pandemic, with the death of Louis Riel, they still think Sir John A. is worth another vote.
00:37:06.260Now, again, square that with the way he is being criticized today.
00:37:13.540I think that, you know, we're in a mode of thinking here that's ahistorical, where people who have the microphone are, you know, who are in government are not doing the job of rectifying the record.
00:37:27.780And maybe I'm expecting too much of our elected politicians.
00:37:32.540I think people simply do not know the history, which is why I'd encourage people to read your book.
00:37:37.240But, you know, the airport in Ottawa is called MacDonald-Cartier Airport.
00:37:44.160The 401 is actually the MacDonald-Cartier Highway because he had a powerful coalition in Quebec and a powerful partner in Georgia-et-Cartier.
00:37:55.540I used to love when my office was in old Montreal, in Saint-Jacques, walking by the plaque up for the office that Cartier had down there.
00:38:08.200In 1885, in fact, because everything happens in 1885, he unveils the statue to his old friend who died, you know, who died almost 15 years before.
00:38:38.560But it might still be worth it because there might still be some new ideas of nationality that could emerge from this, that could elevate the human existence in the Canadian country, in the Canadian countryside.
00:38:50.100Noble ideas that anybody today would stand by, anybody who's right thinking would stand by, that inspired a generation.
00:38:58.360Georges-et-Cartier was that kind of man, and Johnny MacDonald had the wisdom to recognize that.
00:39:05.640Now, after, not related to 1885, so allow me to go past that, but after Laurier does finally win in 1896, first Francophone prime minister, he's liberal.
00:39:21.600Quebec does become a liberal stronghold, and has been for most of its time since then.
00:39:28.020Was there a mythology built up around Laurier?
00:39:34.840I mean, you've studied this great prime minister as well, so how did he make that turn for the province that's been kind of at the center of so many of our debates and challenges over the years?
00:39:47.140Well, no, Sir Wilfrid comes in in 1896. Of course, the conservatives are completely exhausted, and they wind up with old Sir Charles Tupper as leader, and Laurier, who's been in office, I mean, has been in parliament for 20 years at that point, is an experienced man.
00:40:05.340He's an experienced debater. He's an experienced politician. He knows everybody in Quebec. He's brought people around him who are fantastic organizers, people like Israel Tarte and Raoul Danzuran.
00:40:17.940People, these are names that, of course, are very close to my heart, but they're completely unknown today.
00:40:22.880What I'm saying is that Laurier came into power because he forged a phenomenal coalition in Quebec, but also in English Canada.
00:40:30.860And then he had the great luck of being prime minister at a moment when Canada just explodes in terms of wealth, in terms of prosperity.
00:40:39.180We have wheat growing in the West. We have a critical mass of farmers in the West who are growing the country, who are growing the economy.
00:40:46.540Things are doing well in eastern Canada, and Laurier rides the Coteurs.
00:40:51.460He's also a great prime minister. He's a great manager, and he's got ideas.
00:40:56.320To the last days of his government, he has ideas.
00:40:59.980Of course, French Canada loved this man. He was eloquent. He was eloquent. He made them proud.
00:41:07.760Laurier made the Quebecois, the French Canadians, across Canada, very proud.
00:41:13.100And then, of course, the conservatives shoot themselves in the foot, quite literally.
00:41:17.000And I wrote a book about that, two books, actually, with my colleague David McKenzie, on the 1911 election and the 1917 election.
00:43:42.960He, and I talk about it in the book, I mean, he had tremendous trouble in convincing even members of his own cabinet that the CPR was worth it.
00:44:14.400And when the Riel attacks the Canadian government, the railroad is nearly done, not completely done, but nearly done so that you can actually move troops from Montreal.
00:44:24.460And there are French contingents, French regiments in Montreal that are going to take the train to go to the West.
00:44:30.260It's just as popular in Montreal as it is in Toronto.
00:44:32.840And they will take their trains to go fight Riel, and they're there within three weeks.
00:44:40.740Compared to the first rebellion of Louis Riel in 1870, it took three months to move the troops to Winnipeg.
00:44:47.160Here you had to go further, and you did it in three weeks.
00:44:49.620So, yeah, the CPR, that really saved McDonald's bacon.
00:44:54.020But again, he had the foresight to stick with it.
00:44:56.520It was, as you say, the original promise.
00:44:59.140This was the promise of Canada articulated in the 1860s, before Confederation.
00:45:05.060In the 1860s, people like Georges-Étienne Cartier, people like Samuel Tilley in New Brunswick, Charles Tupper in Nova Scotia, George Brown in Ontario.
00:45:22.860Yeah, they're thinking about their little provinces.
00:45:24.760But they know that the West is where it is, and they know that the West is where the Americans will challenge Canada's sovereignty.
00:45:33.160You know, this is something that we forget.
00:45:36.660Canada had to assert sovereignty in a land that was sparsely populated.
00:45:41.860There are, at best, 20,000 Indigenous people roaming the land in Western Canada at that period.
00:45:49.400That's not enough for the American army.
00:45:52.280And it is a blessing, because I can't explain it otherwise, why the Americans resisted invading Canada when it had the largest standing army in the world and could have walked into the territory, could have walked into Manitoba, what we know as Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and even British Columbia, after the Civil War.
00:46:14.060They could have walked in and taken it.
00:46:39.540Well, yeah, thank goodness they didn't.
00:46:41.800It became a land for Canadians and for our philosophy of government and for our philosophy of life, flawed as it may be, flawed as it may be.
00:46:50.420The railway that opened in 1885, we're still using it today.
00:47:32.860If you'll allow me, Brian, I mean, that picture, that iconic picture you mentioned about the last spike, and it's a beautiful picture.
00:47:41.400But it did leave out the Chinese workers.
00:47:43.800And I think that it's important for us, again, in remembering that period, it's important for us to recognize that 600 of those guys died in building the railway from 1881 to 1885, 1886.
00:48:03.460And, you know, a lot of people think that John A. MacDonald was a racist in terms of the Chinese because, you know, he did, he did, and again, you got to say this,
00:48:12.540you know, he did refuse the right to vote to the Chinese.
00:48:16.420He's willing to give it to the indigenous, but he's not willing to give it to the Chinese.
00:48:23.700Number one, because the people from British Columbia, the politicians from British Columbia, are exerting enormous pressures on him to make sure that the Chinese do not vote.
00:48:34.620Because they potentially hold the balance of power in British Columbia.
00:48:38.540Almost 10% of the men in British Columbia at that time were Chinese.
00:48:43.960And there's a lot of fear that, you know, between the liberals and the conservatives, it'll be the Chinese bloc that will determine the win.
00:48:59.480He's even created a royal commission that concluded that the Chinese people, they're all men, the Chinese men are actually honorable people.
00:49:07.840They're honorable people who are making a contribution to this country.
00:49:10.700This is the product of Sir John A. MacDonald, his doing, a royal commission that says that the Chinese are not a threat to this country.