This week on the Full Comment Podcast, Dr. Jordan Peterson is the man of the hour in the world of clinical psychology. He's a hero to many, a rock star to others, and a man of ill repute to many more. And yet, he's also a man who should have no place in clinical psychology in the eyes of the Ontario College of Psychologists.
00:01:58.720Depending on your viewpoint, Jordan Peterson is either a hero or a man of ill repute who should have no standing in the world of clinical psychology.
00:02:15.860What no one can deny is that the man has become a bit of a rock star.
00:02:20.360Maybe not in the world of psychology, but have you heard of any other celebrity psychologists?
00:02:27.420But that's where he is now, and this week we've got a chance to speak with him.
00:02:32.340Now, this is coming together rather quickly, rather last minute, and you might notice that it sounds a little bit different between where I am now and my discussion with Dr. Peterson, who I interviewed just before getting on a flight to come to Tel Aviv in Israel for another matter.
00:02:48.100We'll have more on that in future editions of the full comment podcast.
00:02:52.020Hi, my name is Brian Lilly, your host, and while in Israel right now, I'm reviewing my discussion, my interview with Dr. Peterson, and we wanted to bring it to you this week on the full comment podcast.
00:03:04.480He is a bit of the man of the hour, as it were.
00:03:07.900He had his attempt to overturn a previous court ruling shut down by the Ontario Court of Appeal, which refused to hear his case.
00:03:16.020Peterson has been arguing that the Ontario College of Psychologists overstepped their bounds when ordering him to undergo what he describes as re-education in social media.
00:03:26.780Now, you can dispute whether that is the actual term that should be applied, but there's no doubt that the college has said you will undertake social media training that we deem appropriate or lose your license.
00:03:40.700It's also something that he warns the rest of us can apply to every single profession out there, every single regulated trade, any job where you have a college that decides if you're fit to pursue your life's work.
00:03:54.460Well, now they can determine whether your social media interactions, your public statements on issues of life, of politics, is worthy of you continuing in that job, be it a teacher, hairdresser, a barber, a plumber, a doctor.
00:04:09.420All of these professions have regulatory bodies, and thanks to this court ruling from the Ontario Superior Court of Justice and the decision by the Ontario Court of Appeal not to hear it,
00:04:20.840in Canada's largest province anyway, these bodies now have immense power over you.
00:04:26.500That's a big part of what Dr. Peterson's warning is about.
00:04:30.060It's a big part of what we discussed, but we also discussed his options and how he ended up in this unlikely position.
00:04:37.040We've discussed this many times over the years.
00:04:40.820Jordan Peterson's a man I've interviewed many times, haven't met in person,
00:04:44.040but we have been talking frequently since this became a court issue, and that is where we start the conversation.
00:04:51.580Dr. Peterson, thanks for the time as always.
00:08:42.660So first of all, there were never any complaints levied against me when I was a practicing psychologist prior to my rise to public notoriety, let's say.
00:08:52.280And I practiced for some 20 years and also no complaints levied against me of any sort as a professor, by the way.
00:08:58.860And that was because I didn't do anything that would generate such complaints back when you had to do something to generate complaints, let's say.
00:09:05.740The people who complained were about 15 people, 17 people scattered all over the world.
00:09:52.100I made a smart-ass remark about some Ottawa city councilor who was lying about the trucker convoy.
00:09:59.240The complainant submitted an entire transcript of an interview I did with Joe Rogan,
00:10:05.580where I was expressing my doubts about the validity of the climate apocalypse that's being foisted on us by the moral-mongering globalist utopians.
00:10:16.460And, oh, yes, I pointed out to the world at large that very obese people were not a beauty model for Swimsuit or for Sports Illustrated.
00:10:29.900And I went after Elliot or Ellen Page or whatever the hell she thinks she is.
00:10:34.620So is Sports Illustrated, that would be the publication that just announced they're shutting down?
00:11:29.460Anyone can submit a complaint for any reason whatsoever from anywhere.
00:11:32.940They don't have to be a client or have had anything to do with me or anything to do with anyone I've ever had anything to do with.
00:11:39.300Part of the problem is that the complaint process itself is actually technologically outdated because back when you had to write a letter, you know, on paper and you had to do some work to submit a complaint, the probability that some, you know, far flung dimwit from another country was going to take the time to do the investigation necessary to go after someone like me was zero.
00:12:03.500But now you can submit a complaint, any, you know, vengeful halfwit can submit a complaint in 15 seconds.
00:12:11.820And all the bloody political activists know this.
00:12:15.680They've weaponized the regulatory colleges all over the world.
00:12:20.000So physicians in particular are terrified to say anything.
00:12:22.820How then is this protecting the public in Ontario when what it actually looks like is lawfare?
00:12:31.920I mean, these rules on social media did not exist when you became a clinical psychologist, correct?
00:12:39.100Well, the rules governing conduct existed, but I haven't done anything that violates my responsibility as a psychologist.
00:13:46.460And it's absolutely crystal clear that the end game is to take my license because, you know, I played this out in my head.
00:13:53.780Okay, so they're going to re-educate me, whatever the hell that means.
00:13:57.460I can't even imagine how that's going to work or even who they would get to do it, although they have some people that they've hypothetically recommended.
00:14:05.000Like, how are they going to retool me to their satisfaction?
00:14:10.400You know, I mean, I can't see any possible way that could happen.
00:14:14.280I don't even know what I did that was wrong.
00:14:17.400You know, I mean, maybe they'll tell me, I don't know, what are they going to tell me?
00:14:21.620So don't say anything that isn't cliched ever in public, what, or something like that.
00:14:28.940You and I have been talking about this for just over a year now because I guess it was November 2022.
00:15:13.840It's cited often in administrative cases.
00:15:17.400But it's about a lawyer complaining about a judge and then the entire judicial system coming down on this guy because he had a biased judge against him.
00:15:27.940And that's what they're using to go after you.
00:15:31.740And Justice Chavez, who, by the way, as we've discussed before, you know, former lawyer for the Toronto Star, someone who helped Morgenthaler fight to overturn the abortion laws in this country.
00:16:07.200Well, if you're a Canadian and you think the Charter of Rights protects your rights, you're a fool.
00:16:14.000That thing isn't worth the paper it's written on.
00:16:16.120You don't have property rights to any real significant degree.
00:16:20.760You certainly don't have the right to free speech, especially if you're a professional.
00:16:24.320Because, as you already pointed out, the courts, and Bruce Party wrote a good article about this in the National Post here recently.
00:16:31.040The courts have already decided that pretty much any old bureaucrat whatsoever or bureaucratic organization who can formulate something approximating a justifiable rationale for violating the rights of the professionals they're hypothetically regulating can do so with impunity, obviously.
00:18:05.260So, look, this fight, in my view, is something that every Canadian should be concerned about.
00:18:13.420And I think you'll be happy to hear that I've heard from Canadians who don't agree with you, who don't like you, but who say, wow, I'm really concerned about this.
00:18:27.500And in my view, if you're in any sort of regulated profession or trade, and I mean it, I mean it from psychologists, doctors, teachers, lawyers, but also get into skilled trades, plumbers, hairdressers, electricians, anywhere where you've got an organizing body that decides if you have the right to work in that field.
00:18:52.180They can say, you know what, if you say certain things politically, we're going to say you can't work in this field.
00:19:15.320I know about a case in Saskatchewan with a nurse that, you know, criticized the treatment her father received, and she ended up in trouble, but what's this story?
00:19:25.460Yeah, Amy Hamm in BBC got in terrible trouble for insisting that there was a biological difference between men and women, which is, by the way, the most fundamental fact that humans have access to.
00:19:36.200And now, well, in Canada, it's essentially illegal for all intents and purposes to insist on that.
00:19:44.320So now, your innate ability to differentiate between male and female, which is about the most important thing you can possibly do, has now become a criminal act if you dare to admit that the capacity even exists.
00:19:59.460And you might think I'm exaggerating, but I'm not.
00:21:48.400So God comes to Jonah and says, people are misbehaving, you know, in a city near here that you hate, and you wish they'd all go to hell, but I just assumed you went and, you know, said what you have to say to them.
00:22:02.720And Jonah says, no goddamn way, I'm not going to that city, I'm out of here.
00:22:06.780So he gets on a boat, and God's not very happy that he's disobeyed, so he sends a storm, and the boat rocks, and the waves come, and the sailors find out that Jonah has a beef with God.
00:22:20.080And they try to save him, but they can't, and they eventually throw him overboard to save the ship.
00:22:24.740And then a huge and terrible monster comes up from the depths and seizes Jonah in its jaws and takes them to the bottom of reality itself, right down to hell.
00:22:34.740That's what happens to you if you let the cat get your tongue when you have something to say.
00:22:39.540So, you know, you might want to be terrified about speaking up, and fair enough, man.
00:22:43.040And I've had lots of clients who were in a position where their livelihood was threatened by the fact of their beliefs.
00:22:52.080But there are worse things than losing your job.
00:22:55.720And you might think, well, you know, that's easy for you to say.
00:22:58.400It's like, first of all, no, actually, it hasn't been that easy for me to say, although it's been a hell of an adventure.
00:23:03.380But I would just tell people, you don't understand, guys, you're afraid of the wrong thing.
00:23:11.640Like, if we're in a situation now where you have a job that you can't hold unless you're lying through your silence or your acquiescence,
00:23:21.780then you either have a lot of housecleaning to do in your particular enterprise, or it's time for you to find a new job.
00:23:29.160And it couldn't be made more stark than that.
00:23:31.880And I understand that that's extremely disruptive to people.
00:23:34.900But I'll tell you what else is disruptive.
00:23:37.660It's very disruptive to raise your children on a sinking ship.
00:23:41.780And if you don't think Canada is a sinking ship, you're an idiot.
00:23:44.900We now make less per capita than people in Mississippi.
00:23:48.940We're worse off than the people in the worst-off state in the U.S.
00:24:43.880But, you know, if you stood up and fought, you got up on your back legs and fought, you might find that some people you really admire would come and join you.
00:25:04.940And I'm in a position, you know, it's different from yours.
00:25:08.760You know, as you said before, you know, over the last several years, you've been blessed with support around the world, with wealth and all of that.
00:25:17.080I just happen to be in a position where I'm paid to speak my mind.
00:25:37.000It's scary to say, well, but, you know, the College for Barbers now says if I say something on social media, let's say, that I will lose my license.
00:25:46.760Or if I do X, I will lose my ability to be a teacher, a plumber, an electrician, a doctor.
00:25:55.040It's just a doctor this week who is in trouble in Quebec for misgendering someone.
00:27:11.020I could just tell them to go to hell and resign.
00:27:14.460There's some joy in that, isn't there?
00:27:16.580Well, I wouldn't say so because I really, I really, like, look, I worked hard to be a psychologist and I worked hard to be a good psychologist.
00:27:25.660And I enjoyed helping people and I was good at it.
00:27:29.540And so I'm not the least bit happy about allowing a pack of jack and apes to take away what I earned.
00:27:38.700And so I don't have any delight in that.
00:27:42.400Now, that is counterbalanced by my increasing sense that I don't want to be the member of a club of silent and pathological cowards.
00:27:51.680And increasingly, that's what being a psychologist means in Canada.
00:27:55.680And increasingly, that's also what being a professor means.
00:27:58.260And so, you know, that at some point, a body of professionals, let's say, can get so corrupt that it's actually an immoral act to maintain your affiliation with them.
00:28:12.760Now, I can't exactly make that pronouncement right now and resign because, obviously, that's not well-timed, to say the least, is it?
00:28:23.880Well, and then, well, you asked about options.
00:29:40.020But why would you take the training, which you've described as re-education camp?
00:29:44.600Well, as you pointed out, you know, some of that would be curiosity, but it would also be, and that, I like to get to the bottom of things, and that would be another way of getting to the bottom of things.
00:29:57.260Because I'm actually, I actually am curious, because I've been thinking about how I would handle myself, let's say, in the first course, whatever that would be.
00:30:07.620I would like to find out what the person who's going to conduct this retraining, like, okay, what, what do you think you're doing?
00:30:17.660And what do you think I should do instead?
00:30:19.560And how is it that I could learn from you, even in principle?
00:30:23.460And what do you think you have to teach me?
00:30:25.120Like, I really am curious about that, and investigating all that would give me the opportunity to understand it more deeply.
00:30:33.140I mean, I think I understand it to some degree already, but this is really where the rubber hits the road, isn't it?
00:30:37.780It would help me figure out how far they're willing to go.
00:30:43.160And I could communicate that to people, you know, and that might be real useful, even though it's a pain.
00:30:49.200So, what's your warning to Canadians in general?
00:30:56.940You've kind of made it that everyone should be concerned about this, and I've tried to make people get that.
00:31:02.700But, you know, if we don't have a change in direction, then it's not that necessarily government is going to dictate how we live our lives.
00:31:15.580It will be these petty bureaucrats who are in administrative roles that will determine everything.