Full Comment - Jordan Peterson on why everyone should be afraid of what happened to him

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00:01:58.720 Depending on your viewpoint, Jordan Peterson is either a hero or a man of ill repute who should have no standing in the world of clinical psychology.

00:02:15.860 What no one can deny is that the man has become a bit of a rock star.

00:02:20.360 Maybe not in the world of psychology, but have you heard of any other celebrity psychologists?

00:02:25.640 Not really a thing.

00:02:27.420 But that's where he is now, and this week we've got a chance to speak with him.

00:02:32.340 Now, this is coming together rather quickly, rather last minute, and you might notice that it sounds a little bit different between where I am now and my discussion with Dr. Peterson, who I interviewed just before getting on a flight to come to Tel Aviv in Israel for another matter.

00:02:48.100 We'll have more on that in future editions of the full comment podcast.

00:02:52.020 Hi, my name is Brian Lilly, your host, and while in Israel right now, I'm reviewing my discussion, my interview with Dr. Peterson, and we wanted to bring it to you this week on the full comment podcast.

00:03:04.480 He is a bit of the man of the hour, as it were.

00:03:07.900 He had his attempt to overturn a previous court ruling shut down by the Ontario Court of Appeal, which refused to hear his case.

00:03:16.020 Peterson has been arguing that the Ontario College of Psychologists overstepped their bounds when ordering him to undergo what he describes as re-education in social media.

00:03:26.780 Now, you can dispute whether that is the actual term that should be applied, but there's no doubt that the college has said you will undertake social media training that we deem appropriate or lose your license.

00:03:39.200 That's a heavy toll.

00:03:40.700 It's also something that he warns the rest of us can apply to every single profession out there, every single regulated trade, any job where you have a college that decides if you're fit to pursue your life's work.

00:03:54.460 Well, now they can determine whether your social media interactions, your public statements on issues of life, of politics, is worthy of you continuing in that job, be it a teacher, hairdresser, a barber, a plumber, a doctor.

00:04:09.420 All of these professions have regulatory bodies, and thanks to this court ruling from the Ontario Superior Court of Justice and the decision by the Ontario Court of Appeal not to hear it,

00:04:20.840 in Canada's largest province anyway, these bodies now have immense power over you.

00:04:26.500 That's a big part of what Dr. Peterson's warning is about.

00:04:30.060 It's a big part of what we discussed, but we also discussed his options and how he ended up in this unlikely position.

00:04:37.040 We've discussed this many times over the years.

00:04:40.820 Jordan Peterson's a man I've interviewed many times, haven't met in person,

00:04:44.040 but we have been talking frequently since this became a court issue, and that is where we start the conversation.

00:04:51.580 Dr. Peterson, thanks for the time as always.

00:04:54.460 Hey, thanks for the invitation.

00:04:56.540 Let's back this up for people who don't know why you're in trouble, other than the fact that you are, you're a troublemaker.

00:05:03.700 I mean, it seems to follow you everywhere, but why are you in trouble with the Ontario College of Psychologists?

00:05:11.820 What prompted this?

00:05:13.420 Let's give people a base understanding.

00:05:16.640 They feel that I pose a danger to the public and that I'm a disgrace to the profession.

00:05:22.660 Those are essentially the accusations, and they've already decided that I'm to be re-educated

00:05:29.480 for an indefinite period of time by anyone they choose at my expense, with the outcome being whatever they deem appropriate.

00:05:39.140 Despite the fact that the people that will educate me, so-called social media experts,

00:05:44.200 have no standing as scientists or researchers, let alone clinicians,

00:05:49.500 that there's no such thing as the field of social media expert.

00:05:53.160 There's no criteria by which they could judge my success, etc., etc.

00:05:57.360 And so why, you ask?

00:05:58.660 Do you want the surface reason, the given reason, or do you want the actual reason?

00:06:05.740 I want the actual reason.

00:06:07.780 Okay, well, I'll give you both.

00:06:09.060 The surface reason is that I said things that were...

00:06:14.180 It's hard for me to explain, actually.

00:06:16.960 I can tell you what I did and what I got in trouble for.

00:06:20.320 Okay, well, let me throw this out, because after I wrote a column defending you

00:06:25.740 and saying that this is a problem for anybody in any regulated profession or trade,

00:06:30.740 I had people writing me and saying, well, he's a psychologist and he advised people to kill themselves.

00:06:37.460 Oh, yeah.

00:06:37.860 Well, that's one of them, yeah.

00:06:39.160 So I'll tell you that story.

00:06:40.580 So I've noted for years the proclivity of environmentalist do-gooders to claim that the planet has too many people on it.

00:06:51.880 And one of the most egregious offenders on that front was moralizing madly on Twitter.

00:06:56.740 And I suggested to him that if he felt that the population needed to be reduced,

00:07:01.960 that he might consider contributing to that himself.

00:07:06.200 And so that apparently...

00:07:06.740 You know, like, that's a joke.

00:07:09.640 There's no such thing as a joke now.

00:07:12.480 That was counseling to suicide.

00:07:13.940 That is something that I've said to people for years.

00:07:17.020 You know, I've heard from environmentalists that have a ton of kids and say,

00:07:20.660 we have too many people.

00:07:21.580 Well, you know, you're still here and you had a bunch of kids.

00:07:25.300 So if you think that, you know, the humans on the planet are a locust that are just eating everything,

00:07:32.720 well, why this?

00:07:34.540 Oh, well.

00:07:37.420 Well, and we could delve into that a little bit.

00:07:39.460 Like, I've felt for 30 years that statements like that are generated by a literally genocidal anti-human spirit, 0.95

00:07:49.260 so to speak, that takes possession of the tongues of fools and has them say such things without really noticing what they're doing. 0.83

00:07:57.740 And I actually feel that it's my professional responsibility to call out such Freudian slips, as you might say, 0.96

00:08:04.640 because they actually speak to a very deep fount of extremely pathological motivation.

00:08:11.340 And so on the one hand, it's a joke.

00:08:12.900 But on the other hand, you know, it's a pretty grim joke. 0.99

00:08:16.140 And obviously, you have to be some sort of ideologically addled and blind fool, motivated as well, 0.99

00:08:22.800 to think that that was somehow a psychologist counseling someone, let alone someone in distress, to suicide. 0.99

00:08:29.840 So somebody complained about you making that joke.

00:08:34.320 Were they a patient of yours?

00:08:37.240 Were they someone that was coming to you as a psychologist?

00:08:40.080 No, no, no, none of the people.

00:08:42.400 No.

00:08:42.660 So first of all, there were never any complaints levied against me when I was a practicing psychologist prior to my rise to public notoriety, let's say.

00:08:52.280 And I practiced for some 20 years and also no complaints levied against me of any sort as a professor, by the way.

00:08:58.860 And that was because I didn't do anything that would generate such complaints back when you had to do something to generate complaints, let's say.

00:09:05.740 The people who complained were about 15 people, 17 people scattered all over the world.

00:09:13.180 They complained online.

00:09:14.920 The college decided to pursue 13 of those complaints, even though they are not required to.

00:09:20.040 In their judgment, they determined that that was reasonable.

00:09:23.160 Six of the people claimed in writing to be clients of mine, which was a complete bloody lie.

00:09:27.920 Not only were they not clients of mine, they didn't know anyone who was ever a client of mine.

00:09:33.000 And none of the people that I actually interacted with on Twitter, to the degree that I did, complained.

00:09:38.960 And none of the people who complained knew them.

00:09:41.560 So these were third-party strangers.

00:09:44.960 Yeah.

00:09:45.440 So I can tell you what the other complaints were.

00:09:48.700 I criticized Trudeau.

00:09:50.240 I criticized his chief of staff.

00:09:52.100 I made a smart-ass remark about some Ottawa city councilor who was lying about the trucker convoy.

00:09:59.240 The complainant submitted an entire transcript of an interview I did with Joe Rogan,

00:10:05.580 where I was expressing my doubts about the validity of the climate apocalypse that's being foisted on us by the moral-mongering globalist utopians.

00:10:16.460 And, oh, yes, I pointed out to the world at large that very obese people were not a beauty model for Swimsuit or for Sports Illustrated.

00:10:29.900 And I went after Elliot or Ellen Page or whatever the hell she thinks she is. 0.99

00:10:34.620 So is Sports Illustrated, that would be the publication that just announced they're shutting down?

00:10:39.500 Yeah, that'd be the one, all right.

00:10:41.160 Isn't that something?

00:10:42.120 And who could have possibly predicted that?

00:10:44.780 Yeah.

00:10:45.260 I remember being a teenage boy and being very interested in the swimsuit issue.

00:10:52.200 Let's talk about the fact that these people came from around the world.

00:10:57.220 I mean, this is the Ontario College.

00:10:59.080 So, you know, I've had people say to me, well, you know, this is the Ontario College and they're there to protect the public.

00:11:08.140 Yeah, right.

00:11:08.720 They've got to protect the public from someone who's practicing psychology in Ontario.

00:11:14.380 But these were people who just didn't like what you said on social media.

00:11:19.520 I mean, how far flung were they?

00:11:21.200 Oh, all over London.

00:11:24.360 Most of them were Americans.

00:11:27.080 They were all over the place.

00:11:28.140 It doesn't matter.

00:11:28.740 You can submit it.

00:11:29.460 Anyone can submit a complaint for any reason whatsoever from anywhere.

00:11:32.940 They don't have to be a client or have had anything to do with me or anything to do with anyone I've ever had anything to do with.

00:11:39.300 Part of the problem is that the complaint process itself is actually technologically outdated because back when you had to write a letter, you know, on paper and you had to do some work to submit a complaint, the probability that some, you know, far flung dimwit from another country was going to take the time to do the investigation necessary to go after someone like me was zero.

00:12:03.500 But now you can submit a complaint, any, you know, vengeful halfwit can submit a complaint in 15 seconds. 0.59

00:12:11.820 And all the bloody political activists know this. 0.86

00:12:15.680 They've weaponized the regulatory colleges all over the world.

00:12:20.000 So physicians in particular are terrified to say anything.

00:12:22.820 How then is this protecting the public in Ontario when what it actually looks like is lawfare?

00:12:31.920 I mean, these rules on social media did not exist when you became a clinical psychologist, correct?

00:12:39.100 Well, the rules governing conduct existed, but I haven't done anything that violates my responsibility as a psychologist.

00:12:48.320 In fact, quite the contrary.

00:12:49.300 But this is about social media posts.

00:12:53.380 This is about an interview with Joe Williams.

00:12:54.620 Oh, yes.

00:12:55.060 Well, that's true.

00:12:55.800 Yeah.

00:12:56.060 No, no, no.

00:12:56.580 Those are all those.

00:12:57.780 Yeah.

00:12:58.220 Yeah.

00:12:58.560 Well, they're still back in 1980.

00:13:00.580 This did not exist back then.

00:13:03.020 Now they've added these things in and you've got people complaining from around the world.

00:13:06.980 How is this not just lawfare?

00:13:09.580 Well, it is lawfare.

00:13:10.920 It's taken me.

00:13:11.820 It's very stressful.

00:13:13.040 I mean, it's the equivalent of 13 lawsuits.

00:13:15.100 And they say, well, it's not punitive and it's not a lawsuit.

00:13:18.380 But, well, first of all, the punishment is that they're going to take my license because that's clearly the plan.

00:13:23.960 And in terms of it not being a lawsuit, they recommend themselves that once an action like this is instituted, that you get a lawyer.

00:13:31.380 So, you know, you can flip the words any way you want, but it's a lawsuit and it threatens my livelihood.

00:13:39.120 It's already cost me a million dollars.

00:13:41.120 Like, who the hell has the money to fight that sort of thing?

00:13:44.600 And it's been an unsuccessful fight.

00:13:46.460 And it's absolutely crystal clear that the end game is to take my license because, you know, I played this out in my head.

00:13:53.780 Okay, so they're going to re-educate me, whatever the hell that means.

00:13:57.460 I can't even imagine how that's going to work or even who they would get to do it, although they have some people that they've hypothetically recommended.

00:14:05.000 Like, how are they going to retool me to their satisfaction?

00:14:10.400 You know, I mean, I can't see any possible way that could happen.

00:14:14.280 I don't even know what I did that was wrong.

00:14:17.400 You know, I mean, maybe they'll tell me, I don't know, what are they going to tell me?

00:14:21.620 So don't say anything that isn't cliched ever in public, what, or something like that.

00:14:28.940 You and I have been talking about this for just over a year now because I guess it was November 2022.

00:14:35.740 This came forward.

00:14:37.240 You went public at the end of December or early January 2023.

00:14:41.160 And then you sought judicial review.

00:14:45.480 And you asked the court to say, like, look, these guys are overstepping their bounds.

00:14:49.700 Oh, yeah.

00:14:50.120 Yeah.

00:14:50.700 Yeah.

00:14:50.940 So that court case came back.

00:14:54.060 That's the Ontario so-called Superior Court of Justice.

00:14:56.620 And a ruling by Justice Paul Chavez said that, you know, well, you know, maybe, kind of, yeah, your rights were violated.

00:15:05.100 But, you know, under Section 1 of the Constitution.

00:15:07.840 Yeah, yeah.

00:15:08.100 And we look at Doré, which, by the way, Doré is a case for people that don't know.

00:15:13.840 It's cited often in administrative cases.

00:15:17.400 But it's about a lawyer complaining about a judge and then the entire judicial system coming down on this guy because he had a biased judge against him.

00:15:27.940 And that's what they're using to go after you.

00:15:31.740 And Justice Chavez, who, by the way, as we've discussed before, you know, former lawyer for the Toronto Star, someone who helped Morgenthaler fight to overturn the abortion laws in this country.

00:15:45.220 Very activist lawyer.

00:15:46.820 Very activist judge.

00:15:48.460 He looked at the case and said, no.

00:15:49.960 Like, sure, your rights were violated, but it's justified under Section 1.

00:15:54.760 That, like, you know, people don't get how much power judges have.

00:15:59.800 They said your rights were violated and then said, but it's okay because we agree with it. 1.00

00:16:06.560 Yeah. 1.00

00:16:07.200 Well, if you're a Canadian and you think the Charter of Rights protects your rights, you're a fool. 1.00

00:16:14.000 That thing isn't worth the paper it's written on. 0.99

00:16:16.120 You don't have property rights to any real significant degree.

00:16:20.760 You certainly don't have the right to free speech, especially if you're a professional.

00:16:24.320 Because, as you already pointed out, the courts, and Bruce Party wrote a good article about this in the National Post here recently.

00:16:31.040 The courts have already decided that pretty much any old bureaucrat whatsoever or bureaucratic organization who can formulate something approximating a justifiable rationale for violating the rights of the professionals they're hypothetically regulating can do so with impunity, obviously.

00:16:50.580 I mean, is it so?

00:16:52.100 Look, I mean, here, we've got to make this clear to people.

00:16:54.740 So we already dealt with the suicide thing, which is, you know, just so preposterous.

00:16:58.100 It's beyond comprehension.

00:16:59.040 I criticized Trudeau and his chief of staff and an Ottawa city council.

00:17:06.260 Hold on, let's be accurate.

00:17:07.460 Let's be accurate.

00:17:08.240 His principal secretary at the time, Jerry Butts.

00:17:11.680 I don't want people saying that we're not telling the truth here, Jordan.

00:17:16.280 We've got to be clear.

00:17:17.140 Sorry.

00:17:17.380 Yeah.

00:17:17.940 Yeah.

00:17:18.360 Yeah.

00:17:18.700 Well, yeah.

00:17:19.540 Yeah.

00:17:19.860 Well, right.

00:17:21.000 Well, so do I have a right to criticize political leaders or not?

00:17:24.520 Well, obviously, the answer to that is, well, I have the right, but I don't have the right to do that and like have a profession.

00:17:31.660 And of course, the judge also ruled that the action wasn't disciplinary.

00:17:38.300 It was by a disciplinary committee.

00:17:44.520 Yeah.

00:17:45.020 Well, the thing is, had they turned it disciplinary, I would have had the right to face them.

00:17:51.060 You know, I'm reminded of the great movie Princess Bride.

00:17:56.020 You keep using that word.

00:17:57.320 I don't think it means what you think it means.

00:17:59.360 Yeah.

00:17:59.720 Well, right.

00:18:00.960 It's not disciplinary.

00:18:02.480 It's just disciplinary.

00:18:04.400 Yeah.

00:18:05.260 So, look, this fight, in my view, is something that every Canadian should be concerned about.

00:18:13.420 And I think you'll be happy to hear that I've heard from Canadians who don't agree with you, who don't like you, but who say, wow, I'm really concerned about this.

00:18:27.500 And in my view, if you're in any sort of regulated profession or trade, and I mean it, I mean it from psychologists, doctors, teachers, lawyers, but also get into skilled trades, plumbers, hairdressers, electricians, anywhere where you've got an organizing body that decides if you have the right to work in that field.

00:18:52.180 They can say, you know what, if you say certain things politically, we're going to say you can't work in this field.

00:19:01.280 No, they will say that.

00:19:02.520 They've been doing that with nurses already. 0.99

00:19:04.480 Amy Hamm in British Columbia is a very good example of that.

00:19:07.200 It isn't that they can do that.

00:19:08.660 They 100% certainly will do that.

00:19:12.380 Tell me about this Amy Hamm story.

00:19:14.140 This is not one that I know.

00:19:15.320 I know about a case in Saskatchewan with a nurse that, you know, criticized the treatment her father received, and she ended up in trouble, but what's this story?

00:19:25.460 Yeah, Amy Hamm in BBC got in terrible trouble for insisting that there was a biological difference between men and women, which is, by the way, the most fundamental fact that humans have access to.

00:19:36.200 And now, well, in Canada, it's essentially illegal for all intents and purposes to insist on that.

00:19:42.100 So now, you just think about that.

00:19:44.320 So now, your innate ability to differentiate between male and female, which is about the most important thing you can possibly do, has now become a criminal act if you dare to admit that the capacity even exists.

00:19:59.460 And you might think I'm exaggerating, but I'm not.

00:20:02.700 No, no, I don't.

00:20:03.960 There's a young man from the Ottawa Valley named Josh Alexander.

00:20:07.660 Yeah, I interviewed him.

00:20:08.860 He was suspended from a Catholic school for saying there are only two genders.

00:20:13.920 Last time I checked, the Catholic Church teaches that there are only two genders. 1.00

00:20:19.520 That has not changed, and yet a Catholic school said, you can't come back until you apologize.

00:20:26.420 So they've essentially suspended him.

00:20:28.980 And his brother.

00:20:29.880 And they have, from what I understand, his parents, who are teachers in the education system, have had their careers upended.

00:20:38.520 That's right.

00:20:39.260 And the family lost their house.

00:20:40.980 Yep.

00:20:41.460 It's unbelievable.

00:20:44.100 And I've written about this.

00:20:46.000 Jagmeet Singh threatened him.

00:20:47.160 That's fun.

00:20:48.360 I'm sorry?

00:20:49.100 At a rally.

00:20:50.100 Jagmeet Singh threatened him at a rally.

00:20:53.100 Oh.

00:20:53.660 Now, when he was marching with Antifa, now, when Singh was marching with Antifa, let's make sure everyone put that straight.

00:21:03.080 I assume that, but yeah, that is a good point.

00:21:06.800 So what do you say to people who are worried about speaking up?

00:21:11.880 Because every time I write about you, every time I talk about you, I hear from people who say, I wish I could, but I can't lose my job.

00:21:22.720 Yeah.

00:21:23.300 Well, this is what I'd say to them is, first of all, you should be afraid of speaking up.

00:21:31.620 But you should be way more afraid of hiding and pretending.

00:21:36.040 Because if you speak up, you might lose your job, but if you keep silent when you have something to say.

00:21:45.040 You remember the story of Jonah?

00:21:47.260 Mm-hmm.

00:21:48.400 So God comes to Jonah and says, people are misbehaving, you know, in a city near here that you hate, and you wish they'd all go to hell, but I just assumed you went and, you know, said what you have to say to them.

00:22:01.300 Maybe you can do something about it. 0.97

00:22:02.720 And Jonah says, no goddamn way, I'm not going to that city, I'm out of here. 0.96

00:22:06.780 So he gets on a boat, and God's not very happy that he's disobeyed, so he sends a storm, and the boat rocks, and the waves come, and the sailors find out that Jonah has a beef with God. 0.93

00:22:20.080 And they try to save him, but they can't, and they eventually throw him overboard to save the ship.

00:22:24.740 And then a huge and terrible monster comes up from the depths and seizes Jonah in its jaws and takes them to the bottom of reality itself, right down to hell.

00:22:34.740 That's what happens to you if you let the cat get your tongue when you have something to say.

00:22:39.540 So, you know, you might want to be terrified about speaking up, and fair enough, man.

00:22:43.040 And I've had lots of clients who were in a position where their livelihood was threatened by the fact of their beliefs.

00:22:52.080 But there are worse things than losing your job.

00:22:55.720 And you might think, well, you know, that's easy for you to say.

00:22:58.400 It's like, first of all, no, actually, it hasn't been that easy for me to say, although it's been a hell of an adventure.

00:23:03.380 But I would just tell people, you don't understand, guys, you're afraid of the wrong thing.

00:23:11.640 Like, if we're in a situation now where you have a job that you can't hold unless you're lying through your silence or your acquiescence,

00:23:21.780 then you either have a lot of housecleaning to do in your particular enterprise, or it's time for you to find a new job.

00:23:29.160 And it couldn't be made more stark than that.

00:23:31.880 And I understand that that's extremely disruptive to people.

00:23:34.900 But I'll tell you what else is disruptive.

00:23:37.660 It's very disruptive to raise your children on a sinking ship. 1.00

00:23:41.780 And if you don't think Canada is a sinking ship, you're an idiot. 1.00

00:23:44.900 We now make less per capita than people in Mississippi. 1.00

00:23:48.940 We're worse off than the people in the worst-off state in the U.S.

00:23:53.500 It's a race to the bottom.

00:23:54.980 The OECD predicts that we'll be the worst-performing country in the developed world for the next three decades.

00:24:01.880 And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

00:24:04.080 So, look, I understand why people are afraid.

00:24:07.600 But you've got to be afraid of the right things in life.

00:24:11.700 And the thing you should be afraid of most, this isn't a metaphysical claim.

00:24:17.760 If you lose your integrity, you fall apart.

00:24:23.400 You descend into anxiety.

00:24:25.840 You lose hope.

00:24:27.040 You become weak.

00:24:28.200 You become old.

00:24:29.480 You stress yourself.

00:24:31.140 Your job becomes increasingly pointless.

00:24:33.440 You become bitter and resentful.

00:24:35.880 Like, you're not afraid of that?

00:24:38.920 Well, that's in the future.

00:24:40.120 It's like, yeah, yeah, that's for sure.

00:24:41.760 And maybe you'd lose your job tomorrow.

00:24:43.240 That's possible.

00:24:43.880 But, you know, if you stood up and fought, you got up on your back legs and fought, you might find that some people you really admire would come and join you.

00:24:53.940 And maybe you could win.

00:24:55.420 And then maybe your kids could win.

00:24:58.160 Or you can...

00:24:59.880 I understand why people don't speak up.

00:25:02.900 And so do I.

00:25:04.940 And I'm in a position, you know, it's different from yours.

00:25:08.760 You know, as you said before, you know, over the last several years, you've been blessed with support around the world, with wealth and all of that.

00:25:17.080 I just happen to be in a position where I'm paid to speak my mind.

00:25:20.380 I'm paid to poke the bear.

00:25:22.960 And I've got employers and bosses who are supporting me in that.

00:25:30.100 But I can understand the fear.

00:25:32.840 But I also understand what you're saying.

00:25:34.880 It's difficult.

00:25:37.000 It's scary to say, well, but, you know, the College for Barbers now says if I say something on social media, let's say, that I will lose my license.

00:25:46.760 Or if I do X, I will lose my ability to be a teacher, a plumber, an electrician, a doctor.

00:25:55.040 It's just a doctor this week who is in trouble in Quebec for misgendering someone.

00:26:00.380 Yeah.

00:26:00.820 Well, which is something I predicted, by the way, back in 2016.

00:26:04.340 And all the law professors who, you know, came out to debate me said, oh, Peterson, that'll never happen.

00:26:10.580 No one would ever go to jail for that.

00:26:12.360 There would never be.

00:26:13.160 We don't really mean what we're saying.

00:26:14.960 It's like, it's a law, boys and girls.

00:26:17.520 You break a law, you pay the price.

00:26:19.700 Well, it's just a little law.

00:26:21.180 It's like, no, nothing that has the force of the state behind it is a little law.

00:26:26.020 It's not just politeness.

00:26:27.700 Why can't you use their pronouns, Dr. Peterson? 1.00

00:26:30.480 How about because most of them are lying, narcissistic psychopaths? 1.00

00:26:34.520 How about that for a reason? 0.99

00:26:36.160 And just so the College is clear about that, that's my professional opinion.

00:26:40.700 And I'm speaking as a psychologist.

00:26:44.960 Bank more encores when you switch to a Scotiabank banking package.

00:26:51.420 Learn more at scotiabank.com slash banking packages.

00:26:54.700 Conditions apply.

00:26:56.620 Scotiabank.

00:26:57.280 You're richer than you think.

00:26:58.340 What are you going to do next?

00:27:01.420 Are you going to fight to keep your license?

00:27:05.020 Are you going to go through with the training?

00:27:06.840 Well, I'm ambivalent.

00:27:09.540 I have a variety of options. 1.00

00:27:11.020 I could just tell them to go to hell and resign. 1.00

00:27:14.460 There's some joy in that, isn't there? 0.99

00:27:16.580 Well, I wouldn't say so because I really, I really, like, look, I worked hard to be a psychologist and I worked hard to be a good psychologist.

00:27:25.660 And I enjoyed helping people and I was good at it.

00:27:29.540 And so I'm not the least bit happy about allowing a pack of jack and apes to take away what I earned. 1.00

00:27:38.700 And so I don't have any delight in that. 0.94

00:27:42.400 Now, that is counterbalanced by my increasing sense that I don't want to be the member of a club of silent and pathological cowards.

00:27:51.680 And increasingly, that's what being a psychologist means in Canada.

00:27:55.680 And increasingly, that's also what being a professor means.

00:27:58.260 And so, you know, that at some point, a body of professionals, let's say, can get so corrupt that it's actually an immoral act to maintain your affiliation with them.

00:28:12.760 Now, I can't exactly make that pronouncement right now and resign because, obviously, that's not well-timed, to say the least, is it?

00:28:23.880 Well, and then, well, you asked about options.

00:28:25.720 I could move to the United States.

00:28:28.280 My daughter's in Arizona.

00:28:30.000 I'd pay way less tax.

00:28:33.080 People are happier with me in some sense there than they are in Toronto.

00:28:37.340 I'm probably less popular in Toronto than anywhere else in the world, as far as I can tell.

00:28:41.920 So that's kind of interesting and weird.

00:28:46.040 I have lots of options.

00:28:47.540 I could just stop fighting.

00:28:49.340 I could take the re-education course and see what the hell they're up to. 0.97

00:28:52.880 Right now, that's the most likely outcome.

00:28:54.880 Could you become a psychologist in another province?

00:28:58.440 We'll see.

00:28:59.560 You know, I'm looking into that option.

00:29:01.880 I've had offers of that sort already from multiple jurisdictions.

00:29:07.360 You know, there's a difference between an offer, even if it's made in good faith, and something that can actually happen.

00:29:13.200 It's not that easy to join a, it's not that easy to become a professional in a different jurisdiction.

00:29:21.460 There are a fair number of hoops that generally have to be jumped through.

00:29:25.140 But it's a possibility.

00:29:26.380 So you're leaning towards taking the training.

00:29:30.940 Is that out of curiosity?

00:29:33.700 Look, I'm in a business where if you don't have curiosity, you shouldn't be in the business.

00:29:38.060 So I might do that.

00:29:40.020 But why would you take the training, which you've described as re-education camp?

00:29:44.600 Well, as you pointed out, you know, some of that would be curiosity, but it would also be, and that, I like to get to the bottom of things, and that would be another way of getting to the bottom of things.

00:29:57.260 Because I'm actually, I actually am curious, because I've been thinking about how I would handle myself, let's say, in the first course, whatever that would be.

00:30:07.620 I would like to find out what the person who's going to conduct this retraining, like, okay, what, what do you think you're doing?

00:30:14.720 What do you think my crime is?

00:30:16.740 Exactly.

00:30:17.660 And what do you think I should do instead?

00:30:19.560 And how is it that I could learn from you, even in principle?

00:30:23.460 And what do you think you have to teach me?

00:30:25.120 Like, I really am curious about that, and investigating all that would give me the opportunity to understand it more deeply.

00:30:33.140 I mean, I think I understand it to some degree already, but this is really where the rubber hits the road, isn't it?

00:30:37.780 It would help me figure out how far they're willing to go.

00:30:43.160 And I could communicate that to people, you know, and that might be real useful, even though it's a pain.

00:30:49.200 So, what's your warning to Canadians in general?

00:30:56.940 You've kind of made it that everyone should be concerned about this, and I've tried to make people get that.

00:31:02.700 But, you know, if we don't have a change in direction, then it's not that necessarily government is going to dictate how we live our lives.

00:31:15.580 It will be these petty bureaucrats who are in administrative roles that will determine everything. 1.00

00:31:22.280 That's right.

00:31:23.500 Well, that's exactly it.

00:31:24.580 What's happened is that the spirit of tyranny has determined how to invade low-level bureaucracies and exert itself.

00:31:34.260 We're protected to some degree against tyranny at the highest levels of the political,

00:31:40.560 but we're not protected at all against creeping tyranny in the administrative state.

00:31:46.000 And especially when the judiciary enables precisely those actors.

00:31:53.300 And they are not responsible to the market as you are if you're an evil capitalist,

00:32:01.840 and they're not responsible to, in any real sense, to the electorate.

00:32:08.640 Not in any true sense.

00:32:10.380 And so they can find their sinecures. 0.93

00:32:13.920 And, you know, it's very frequently the case that on regulatory boards,

00:32:20.120 regulatory boards attract the sort of people who like to do exactly the sorts of things that they're doing to me.

00:32:26.160 So, what should Canadians think?

00:32:31.600 The Canadians who are silent when their conscience is telling them to speak 1.00

00:32:38.400 should pray that they die before the full consequences of their stupidity make themselves manifest. 1.00

00:32:43.840 But they'll have their children to suffer. 1.00

00:32:46.280 Their children can suffer for them, because that's the consequences of silence.

00:32:50.880 It really is an erosion of freedom.

00:32:53.020 And, you know, I look at that ruling from Paul Chavis, the judge at the Ontario Superior Court of Justice,

00:33:01.380 and my goodness, it is an aberration of justice, what he wrote, his convoluted ruling.

00:33:08.700 And I know it's last August, and I hate to go back to that, but the man was all over the map on this.

00:33:15.540 And because the appeals court just decided not to grant any leave to appeal, gave no reasons,

00:33:22.000 your attempt to fix this is dead.

00:33:25.980 And a horrible ruling by an activist judge who should be hanging his head in shame now becomes precedent.

00:33:33.860 Yeah, that's right.

00:33:35.380 You got her, buddy.

00:33:36.680 And you said erosion of freedom.

00:33:38.900 It's like, no, we should make it more stark than that.

00:33:41.700 Canadians do not understand this.

00:33:43.680 Their freedoms are already gone.

00:33:47.140 What we have is the, we have the remnants of freedoms.

00:33:50.380 We have the echoes and ghosts of freedoms.

00:33:53.300 We have the apparatus of freedom.

00:33:56.220 The freedoms are already gone.

00:33:57.920 And now the consequences of that are going to unfold.

00:34:00.540 Now you can already see that happening in Canada's economic decline.

00:34:03.960 But it's certainly not going to stop there.

00:34:06.520 I mean, so, if that's what people want, if that's by their silence,

00:34:13.060 if that's what they're requesting by their silence, if they're requesting their own slavery

00:34:17.420 by their silence, which is the silence of slaves, by the way, then they'll attract tyranny

00:34:24.560 in precise proportion to that.

00:34:27.340 And, you know, it's very hard for Canadians because we are accustomed to assuming that our

00:34:32.440 fundamental institutions are sound.

00:34:35.760 And they were for a long time.

00:34:38.120 You could trust that the political parties essentially stood for what they said they stood for.

00:34:42.840 You didn't have a situation where the Liberals were way left of the NDP, which is certainly

00:34:48.300 the case in Canada now, for example.

00:34:51.320 Like, people were playing an ideological game, but to the degree that it was possible, they

00:34:56.460 were playing that straight.

00:34:57.280 You could basically, when I grew up, you could basically trust the CBC.

00:35:01.980 You know, certainly some of the journalists at the CBC, the universities were doing a credible

00:35:06.980 job.

00:35:07.640 Even the school systems, which, you know, I hated going to school when I was a kid.

00:35:11.020 I thought that the system was dreadfully incompetent.

00:35:13.680 But now it's staggeringly incompetent.

00:35:17.320 Plus, it's ideologically addled to a degree that is truly diagnosable clinically.

00:35:24.680 And so this isn't going to happen in 10 years.

00:35:29.120 This is now.

00:35:30.480 And people are 10 years behind the curve, fundamentally, or maybe even 15.

00:35:35.280 And so, and I can understand why that is, too.

00:35:38.260 It's very hard now to inform yourself properly as to how the world is unfolding, because things

00:35:46.080 are changing at a rate that's just beyond belief.

00:35:49.880 And most people don't know where to get credible information.

00:35:55.860 So, you know, I watched the universities.

00:35:59.620 Hey, so what happened in the universities?

00:36:01.960 Well, first of all, the administration took over the universities.

00:36:06.040 And that took about 30 years.

00:36:08.780 And then, and the professors stepped back every time they were asked to, until there was really

00:36:14.360 nothing left of them.

00:36:15.320 And then the woke mob took over the administration.

00:36:19.580 And that took about five years, when they really got going.

00:36:24.360 And now the woke mob is going to take over the sciences, too.

00:36:28.020 I mean, that's, that's already more or less a fait accompli.

00:36:32.360 And the Americans are starting to wake up for this, to this, to some degree.

00:36:35.600 You know, you saw the presidents of UPenn, MIT, and Harvard reveal their abysmally malevolent

00:36:46.160 ignorance and presumption in D.C., not even noticing they were doing it.

00:36:52.200 The consequence of that was the demise of two of them.

00:36:54.980 But Jesus, all that did was brush a little rust off the surface.

00:36:59.540 There's a lot, there's a lot more to go.

00:37:01.140 So, yeah, Dr. Peter, I want to thank you for your generous generosity with your time

00:37:08.260 today.

00:37:09.800 It's always a pleasure talking to you.

00:37:13.020 And, you know, hopefully something can change.

00:37:15.480 I know some people say just vote Trudeau out.

00:37:17.740 I think it's more than that.

00:37:19.040 It's got to be a lot more than that.

00:37:20.980 And it's a big job ahead of us.

00:37:22.260 So thanks for taking the time and discussing all of this with us today.

00:37:27.080 Yeah, well, thanks for your attention to this and your attempts to bring it to wider

00:37:31.120 public awareness.

00:37:32.260 You know, I don't really think this is about me.

00:37:34.560 And I guess I could close with that.

00:37:37.360 I don't have a horse in this race in some ways.

00:37:40.720 I can, I have the luxury now of being able to do pretty much whatever the hell I want,

00:37:46.680 as long as I'm somewhat careful.

00:37:49.200 I don't have to have this war.

00:37:50.940 But at the moment, I'm still choosing to do it because I think that, look, man, if this

00:37:59.020 board can take me out, and they probably will, what makes anyone else think that they're

00:38:06.380 not on the line?

00:38:08.320 You could justify that by saying, well, you know, if you weren't so mouthy and reprehensible,

00:38:12.560 nothing would have happened to you.

00:38:13.660 The old tyrannical line, you know, is if you didn't do anything wrong, you have nothing

00:38:18.940 to worry about, which is what every tyrant always says.

00:38:22.060 It's like, you better search your souls, boys and girls, and see if you have anything

00:38:25.600 to worry about.

00:38:26.320 Because I don't know anyone who's pure enough in heart to escape the tyrannical and penny

00:38:34.100 pinching micromanagers if they get there, if they get you in their sights.

00:38:39.040 No, it's the old line, those of us who have not sinned, cast the first stone.

00:38:45.620 Well, we'd all put down our stones at that point.

00:38:47.600 Dr. Peterson, thanks so much.

00:38:49.560 You bet, man.

00:38:50.200 Good talking to you.

00:38:51.400 I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Dr. Jordan Peterson.

00:38:54.640 You can agree with him, you can disagree with him, but there's no doubt that this court ruling,

00:38:59.620 this procedure he's going through is going to have a major impact on the lives of many.

00:39:04.100 So let us know what you think.

00:39:05.380 Make sure that you reach out to us, drop a comment below wherever you're listening to

00:39:10.180 the podcast, share it, of course.

00:39:12.680 Full Comments is a post-media podcast.

00:39:14.860 My name's Brian Lilly, your host.

00:39:16.140 This episode was produced by Andre Pru with theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:39:20.360 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:39:22.120 You can subscribe to Full Comments on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, what have you.

00:39:26.640 Listen through your app or Alexa-enabled devices, and you can help us out by giving us a rating

00:39:31.260 or leaving a review and by telling your friends about us.

00:39:34.320 Thanks for listening.

00:39:35.380 And until next time, I'm Brian Lilly.

Full Comment - January 23, 2024

Jordan Peterson on why everyone should be afraid of what happened to him

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