Leslyn Lewis says her social conservatism means smaller government
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Summary
Leslyn Lewis is running for the Conservative Party of Canada leadership, and joins us on the show to talk about why she's running and why she thinks it's a good idea. She also talks about the dangers of the Emergencies Act, and the need to protect our civil liberties.
Transcript
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Thanks for joining us for the latest episode of Full Comet.
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Please consider subscribing to this show if you haven't already.
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The Conservative Party of Canada leadership race is now well underway, and we hope to have
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most of the candidates join us in the months ahead on this show.
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A few weeks ago, we had Pierre Paulyev join us for a conversation, and this week I'm pleased
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She's the Conservative MP for Haldeman Norfolk and placed third in the previous Conservative
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Let's jump right into it, and let me ask you, why are you running for the leadership this
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Well, it looks like the same issues that were present last time, Anthony, we haven't resolved
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them in our country, and I'm very concerned about the direction that our country is going
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I think that we need some policies that are going to unite us and instill hope and unity
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I'm concerned about our social safety nets and that the enormous amount of money that
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we're spending as a government, that it's going to put us in a place where our social
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And most of all, I'm hearing concerns that people are very, very, very concerned about
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their freedoms and what that means to things such as freedom of speech, freedom of assembly,
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These things are being undermined, and I think that we have to focus our country on strengthening
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How are our freedoms being undermined right now, would you say?
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Well, let's start for one small thing that I hear over and over from constituents, from
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Right now, I believe we're the only country where an unvaccinated person is not able to
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board a plane, cannot board a train, and cannot get on a boat that is federally regulated.
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We also witnessed the utilization of the Emergencies Act, and that put many people in a position
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of concern because the government was able to freeze bank accounts without due process.
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And so I have numerous friends who are very successful, who have actually picked up and left
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Canada because of this unsettling thing that's happened.
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So you know people have said they're leaving Canada specifically because of the financial
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Because once a government demonstrates to the citizens that there's a vulnerability in your
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Remember, people see Canada as a beacon of hope and opportunity for people from all around
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And when something as simple as due process is compromised and innocent people because
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they gave to a cause which they believed in, which was not an illegal cause.
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And as you can see, there's many newspaper articles that are coming out now which are stating that
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they actually spread misinformation about the convoy.
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So people are saying, yes, so media outlets can spread misinformation and governments can
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act on that and confiscate or suspend people's civil liberties.
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That is extremely disconcerting in a free and democratic society.
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So, of course, there's going to be insecurities around that, Andrew.
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And people who have the means to leave Canada, many of them are doing so.
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Now, I know a number of experts said for those very reasons, OK, don't be hasty bringing
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in the Emergencies Act for the first time ever.
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And many groups like the Canadian Civil Liberties Association said, no, we did not meet the threshold
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How do we then how do we deal with this moving forward?
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I guess there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.
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But as you said, you know, people who are who are very concerned that this has happened.
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Well, Anthony, we need a process of restoring confidence in critical institutions, one, namely
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The confidence has to be restored in government.
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And the only way to do that is by listening to the citizenry and also by making sure that
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Their role is that they are elected to serve the people.
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They must act in accordance in the best interest of the people.
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Then we have to restore the faith in the media, because when the media is spreading misinformation
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about average Canadians, and that leads to the suspension of civil liberties, then everything
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that comes out of the media becomes distrusted.
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And the only way we can do that is by going back to the basics, the basics which uphold our
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constitution, such as our freedom of expression, our freedom of association, our freedom of
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When those things are put to the level that they should be in our society and are upheld,
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In what way would a politician, the prime minister or someone who's conservative leader,
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Because I'm not going to disagree with you that there's certain things in some news outlets that
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And that's causing some problems with the social fabric.
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But just like I was nervous when Justin Trudeau and the liberals wanted to create new programs
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to sort of get involved in the media, how would you as conservative leader, as conservative
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I mean, I see that there should be just more work done internally from the media themselves.
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Well, I believe that we need to stop government overreach.
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So if we look at something like Bill C-11, we need to make sure that we are not enabling
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institutions and organizations like the CRTC to overreach and to limit people's right to
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We need to make sure that we are not taking away people's freedom to watch what they want
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to watch once it's within legal parameters on the internet.
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And we need to make sure that there's a confidence in our institutions.
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I guess one of the challenges that we've seen is a lot of people who've been frustrated
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the past six months, year, two years have seen their faith really erode in a whole variety
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And we see this in various polls and these trust barometers that different organizations
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come up with, that there is an erosion of just institutional trust in Canada right now.
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Well, I think that it has to start with the governments first, as I said, recognizing that
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There has to be some arm's length between the government and those institutions.
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The government cannot be seen as manipulating those institutions for the benefit of some sort
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So the checks and balances that our democracy was based on, we have to return to those.
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How do we do that in a way that brings everyone on board?
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You talked about division earlier and sort of this lack of unity that a lot of people say
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Well, Anthony, I think that what we need to do is we need to face reality.
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And the reality is that we're at a five-time year low on national unity.
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This means that Western Canada, they feel completely disrespected by Ottawa.
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And so we have to start recognizing that all these various sectors of our beautiful country,
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they have unique contributions that they can make.
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And we need to start valuing those unique contributions.
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You could do that by implementing laws that respect those particular regions.
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For example, the West, how could the West feel valued when we have laws like Bill C-48 and Bill C-69,
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which kills their industry, and yet we have more favorable laws for foreign industries,
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foreign oil and gas industries than we do for our own country.
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And we've seen that when we do that, once we pit regions against each other, Anthony,
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Because right now, you're suffering at the gas pumps.
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When you go and you're paying exorbitant prices for gas,
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that affected and penalized certain regions of the country for political gain.
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If we had built our pipelines, Anthony, right now, we would be getting our LNG to Tidewater,
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and we would be supplying Europe, who accesses 40% of their LNG from Russia.
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So right now, we are contributing to the fact that we have emboldened Russia,
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we have financed Russia, and now Russia's turning around and invading places like Ukraine.
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That can be directly connected to our LNG policy and our inability to make Canada a self-sustaining nation.
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Lesley Lewis, I want to take a pause for a moment from the policy, move to the politics for a second.
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Looking back at the 2020 Conservative Party leadership race and looking at the results of that,
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I think one thing that maybe hasn't been discussed that much is how good of a showing you made in that leadership race
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for someone who didn't have as much of a national profile to begin with as Aaron O'Toole did,
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who got first place, of course, Peter McKay, who's second place.
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I'm looking here at the second round results, and Aaron O'Toole, 35% of the points allocated,
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Peter McKay, 34%, yourself at 30%, a very strong third place showing.
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How do you plan to build upon that this time around?
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Well, Anthony, I would even characterize it a little bit differently than you're characterizing it,
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because in actuality, I won the popular vote on the second ballot.
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Right, I see that 60,000 for you, 54,000 for Peter, and then 57,000 for Aaron.
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It's interesting the way all these things are tabulated in this race.
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Is this year's leadership going to be the same sort of point system and same tabulation?
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So those ridings with fewer than 100 members will only get the amount of votes that's in the riding.
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So if they have 20, it will be 20 votes, whereas before, if they had two members, they would still get 100 points.
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And what does that mean for you for this time around?
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Well, I think it's more favorable for someone like myself.
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I think that if I had more time during the last leadership race, I would have been able to even bridge that gap under those rules.
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But as you know, I'm an outsider, I'm coming in, and I'm not a traditional politician.
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And I think that's one of the things that why people gravitate towards me, because I'm very, very forthright in what I believe in my policies.
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I don't have to worry about whether I'm going to misspeak on something.
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It may be different than what you believe, Anthony, but I believe that you and I can sit down and have a respectful conversation about even policies that are extremely polarizing.
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Because I, in speaking with people, because I love people, so I love communicating with people.
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So in speaking with people, I find that even the person who is so different than I am has such divergent policies that I do.
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If we sit down and we have an honest conversation, there's going to be some commonality.
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And so, Anthony, my political approach is I like to build bridges.
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And I say, even on something extremely polarizing, let's find out where we agree and let's start from there.
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All right, let's talk about some extremely polarizing issues in just a moment.
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We'll be back with Les and Lewis in just a moment.
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Before we get to those extremely polarizing issues, Ms. Lewis, you described yourself.
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Well, Anthony, if you look at the other politicians that are running, they've been politicians for years.
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Some of them have been politicians all of their adult life.
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I worked on Bay Street as a lawyer for a few years.
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So I come in with a completely different skill set.
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But I have a totally different skill set than the average politician.
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So I find even within politics that I'm very, very unique because I go by this is what I believe.
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This is what I believe will be in the best interest of Canadians.
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And so it's not necessarily a partisan approach.
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I can have something in common with someone across the aisle from me, someone of a different party.
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I just look at the policies and the principles.
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So I have a different way of viewing politics than the average politician who has been entrenched in the system.
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How do you consider yourself as someone making history running for conservative leadership as the first black woman to do so in this nation?
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Well, I think it's great that people see a broad spectrum in our party.
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And one of the biggest complaints I hear about our party, Anthony, is they say, we don't think your party actually likes people who are not white male or blonde and blue eyed females.
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And I'm there to say, well, you know, I actually fit in quite well in the party and I can share the reasons why I gravitated to that party, which is largely because of the divergent perspectives, the diversity of ideology and thought that's in our party.
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And I believe that even the average immigrant, when I speak to them and I say, well, this is what I believe.
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They look at me and they say, well, that's what I believe, too.
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And so it's a matter of letting people understand that our party is a big tent party and it embraces people from various perspectives, various philosophies, various racial and religious and ethnic and background, sexual orientation.
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So all of those things are, I think, that we need to communicate better about our party.
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But specifically for me, Anthony, as the first Black woman running to be the leader of the party, I think that what it symbolizes is when a young person, when a child, a teenager, a young boy or girl of any race, when they look at me and they say, well, she did it.
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And so this country is really a country of opportunity.
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And here it is, this party that we thought wasn't all inclusive, they have this individual running for the leader.
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So it dispels some of the myths about, number one, our party, and it confirms that we live in one of the most meritocratic societies in all the world, where a Black woman can run to be the leader of the Conservative Party.
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And people can see that we're a country that if you work hard and with hard work and perseverance, you can achieve your goals.
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Now, there's been a bit of a back and forth going on between Patrick Brown and Pierre Polyev, also both candidates in this leadership race.
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Patrick Brown attacking Polyev, saying that he has, quote, no credibility announcing any sort of policy which largely impacts minority communities.
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Basically, going back to what you had said about there being this preconceived notion of a party of white guys or what have you, not welcoming persons from minority communities.
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And Patrick Brown pointed to the support for barbaric cultural practices tip line in the 2015 election and banning the wearing of the dekab during citizenship swearing in ceremonies.
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That had been something that Stephen Harper had introduced towards the end of his tenure.
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What do you think of this idea that there are people who, if they support these policies, there's no credibility with minority communities?
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Well, first of all, Pierre Polyev's wife is a minority.
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So I don't think, and I know him personally, and I can tell you that he's anything but bigoted.
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So I don't think that that's a very, very credible comment.
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Both Pierre Polyev and Mr. Brown were in Prime Minister Harper's caucus at that time.
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And they would have both supported, and it wasn't a kneecap ban from my understanding.
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I'm in Parliament, and when I'm wearing a mask and I have to vote, I pull down the mask so that, and I'm the only black woman in the Conservative Party, so everybody knows who I am.
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But I still pull down my mask, and I identify myself, and then I go back and I take my seat.
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So I believe that that was the purpose, very similar to that, of Mr. Harper's kneecap ban.
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He sent out a newsletter to his constituents in Barrie, and Pierre Polyev supported it.
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So I don't see why they are at each other about this issue, that they were both in the party at the same time, and they both supported that policy.
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Now, this is an issue that definitely people like to dredge up more.
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It's something you'll see in a lot of media being brought up, these issues of burqaband or how everyone wants to characterize it.
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You mentioned very divisive issues and that you believe you can be a bridge on people sitting down and discussing on both sides of the aisle.
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Another issue that frequently comes up, or at least that people like to attack the Conservative Party for,
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is whether or not members of the party, the leader, too many caucus members, or what they would call pro-choice.
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And then they like to attack them for being pro-choice.
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A lot of accusations that he was not sufficiently, pardon me, he was not sufficiently pro-life.
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You've been described a lot as a social conservative.
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And how do you feel that this issue should be discussed now, the pro-choice, pro-life conversation?
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Well, Anthony, that's the beauty about my party.
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And there are even some aspects of me that I would support, even the quote-unquote red Tory label.
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So I don't think you fit in one particular category.
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There are policies that would fall into a particular category.
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I have friends who are gay who are social conservatives because they have certain social conservative values.
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How would you describe social conservative, then, in that context?
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Because a lot of people kind of disagree on what they mean by that term.
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Because some people take social conservative and mean, oh, you're against gay rights.
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But you're clearly saying that these gay persons probably don't fall into that category.
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What do we mean when we even talk about these terms, then?
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Well, I think social conservatism for me is it's basically keeping the government out of my social and personal life.
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Social conservatives, and that's why you could have a gay person who's a social conservative,
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because they believe this, you stay out of my life, you stay out of my bedroom.
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And so a typical social conservative would say, these are my children.
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The government does not stand in locus parentis to me.
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They do not have a right to tell me how to raise my children if I'm doing so in a loving and caring manner.
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I want to be free to worship, to practice my faith,
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and I do not believe that the government should interfere in that.
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So those are other examples of social conservatism.
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and marriage may mean different things to different social conservatives.
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A person, for example, who is a gay social conservative would say,
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well, I want to get married rather than not get married.
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And so they still have an aspect of social conservatism there,
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because they choose to live in a marital relationship.
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Are religious rights being violated right now in Canada?
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I would need some clarification if you're speaking about anything specifically, Anthony.
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I just mean you brought it up as an example of people saying,
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Is there a situation where people's religious rights are not being adequately respected in Canada,
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such that we need a remedy from a politician such as yourself?
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Well, for example, let me just give you one small example.
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The conversion therapy ban, if we can talk about something more controversial.
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I do not believe that if any medical practitioner is administering nauseous substances to somebody
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or electrocution or practicing those heinous acts, they should lose their license.
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But some pastors believe that if a grown adult comes to them and says,
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you know what, I would like to talk about this particular issue.
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And they're not trying to convert the person or change them,
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but they are having just a conversation with them.
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So some pastors feel that they're very concerned,
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even if a parent brings a child to them and says,
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okay, well, we would like to speak about this issue.
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Maybe my child is considering getting a sex change.
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And so we want to make sure that they're emotionally and psychologically ready.
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And you're a trusted person that we'd like to have a conversation with.
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Pastors have communicated to me now that they are afraid to have those conversations.
00:26:08.800
So things such as those, I do believe that people of faith may believe that those are some issues
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that they would like to make sure that they are not inadvertently targeted by certain legislation.
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And I've heard people of faith say that, that they're concerned that they don't want certain laws to inadvertently target them.
00:26:36.680
One thing I always found interesting about Ontario's conversion therapy legislation is it effectively made it against the law
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for people working in places like CAMH to do anything other than gender reaffirming.
00:26:50.400
When someone comes and says, I believe I might need a sex change, the medical professional can't really say,
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okay, I've assessed things and, you know, no, you don't.
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They more have to do something that puts them on a pathway to going ahead with that.
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Even if the medical professional says, well, hold on a second, maybe there needs to be some counseling
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This is a big, big step you're taking in your life.
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And I was surprised to learn that the legislation really pushes away from that.
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And I fear that the way we talk about these sort of issues, well, I guess that we don't talk about them.
00:27:23.920
We don't talk about them in the sort of nuanced, big picture way they deserve.
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Instead, they're very kind of blunt conversations.
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And we just kind of attack someone if they even want to talk about them more thoroughly.
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Absolutely. And that's a part of the problem, Anthony, because I judge members of the LGBTQ plus community
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the same way I judge everyone else, and that they are human being first.
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They are deserving of equal dignity and respect like anyone else.
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So when a piece of legislation comes in front of me, Anthony, whether you are a member of the LGBTQ plus community
00:28:03.360
or another community or whether it's a BIPOC piece of legislation, I look at the legislative intent.
00:28:12.360
And I may be against something like conversion therapy, which I've always stated that I'm against.
00:28:19.240
But then I want to look at the legislation and look at whether or not there are any unintended consequences in it.
00:28:27.180
Look at whether or not certain terms can be better defined.
00:28:30.780
And as soon as you say that, you have people who make a living off of polarizing and demonizing
00:28:45.840
And so what you have then is you start to have an echo chamber of people of passing legislations
00:28:59.820
You don't get an opportunity to fully engage with the legislation because you're afraid of being labeled.
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And I think that that is really counterproductive.
00:29:10.960
I want to talk about a couple really big issues right now that Canada is dealing with as a nation,
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that the prime minister is, of course, dealing with.
00:29:17.620
Want to get your take on how you would deal with things differently.
00:29:19.960
Were you conservative leader? Were you prime minister?
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Seems like we're not going to be dealing with things like mask mandates and lockdowns again.
00:29:30.720
Dr. Theresa Tam has already threatened that in the fall.
00:29:38.840
What do you think should happen in the fall if we see, yes, unfortunately, COVID-19 is surging again
00:29:44.320
and there will be some voices, I feel like inevitably because they always do, pushing for more restrictions to come in.
00:29:51.680
How would you contend with that as leader of a federal party?
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Well, I think it's important that we learn from our mistakes.
00:30:02.140
And I think it's important that we build on that, that we make sure that we have good data,
00:30:09.860
that also we find a way to free up capacity in our health care system.
00:30:16.200
So we need some additional transfer funds to the provinces in the health care area to make sure that we can have hospitals
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that are capable of dealing with increased patients due to any type of pandemic.
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I think it's also important that we do things to strengthen our economy and bring home our essential goods and supply chains
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by making sure that we are able to manufacture products such as gloves and respirators and masks within our country.
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The other big issue I want to talk about right now, the situation in Ukraine.
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We had President Zelensky from Ukraine, of course, address the Canadian Parliament recently.
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He's calling for more action from NATO nations, from Canada, from the United States,
00:31:12.720
certainly a lot of outpouring of support from our country in terms of sanctions and providing materials.
00:31:18.120
He is calling for a no-fly zone, though, that Jen Stoltenberg at NATO has said,
00:31:26.460
What do you think we should do moving forward on this file?
00:31:28.960
Because a lot of people see these heartbreaking images, they want more to be done,
00:31:32.400
but there are certain things that it seems that NATO nations say, no, that's got to be off the table.
00:31:38.560
Well, I think that one immediate thing that would have an immediate impact is a visa-free travel regime
00:31:47.060
for the Ukrainians to bring them immediately to safety without the need to go to a third country.
00:31:56.380
I think that that may require additional resources from Immigration Canada to support these measures,
00:32:09.700
Now, we've certainly got a lot of people here who are sending support also going abroad to participate in military activities.
00:32:19.380
Hundreds of Canadians have apparently already headed over to Ukraine.
00:32:24.240
I mean, the federal government cabinet ministers, they've ranged from saying,
00:32:27.540
don't do that to kind of no comment, they certainly don't want to be encouraging people in that situation.
00:32:36.460
Well, Anthony, I think that fighting a war is something that requires skills,
00:32:41.500
and I would hope that the people who are going over are well-trained,
00:32:45.100
but I don't really, I would think that that is something that they would probably consult the Canadian military about
00:32:57.540
to make sure that they're not going over there and causing additional problems,
00:33:01.900
because there's organizations and protocols that would be on the ground that they may not be familiar with.
00:33:09.780
So I'm not too sure that that is a wise decision without consulting the proper decision makers before doing that.
00:33:23.080
At the beginning of our conversation, when I asked why you're running for leader,
00:33:25.460
there's two issues you brought up right away, pretty much the first two you brought up that I want to circle back on here.
00:33:30.860
You mentioned the environment, you mentioned the social safety net.
00:33:33.900
When it comes to the government and regulating the environment and various environmental issues,
00:33:39.260
lots of headlines, lots of strong opinions, lots of controversy.
00:33:43.220
When it comes to conservatives, there's generally pro-carbon tax, anti-carbon tax, a lot of split.
00:33:47.880
We're seeing that playing out right now during this leadership race.
00:33:54.400
No, Anthony, I do not support an individual carbon tax,
00:33:57.840
because I feel that such a policy unfairly targets the individuals who are least able to afford it.
00:34:10.340
So every time you pump gas for your car, you're paying to heat your homes, you're paying.
00:34:20.120
And these are individuals who can least afford the carbon tax.
00:34:25.440
In addition, I don't believe the carbon tax is revenue neutral, as been stated.
00:34:32.100
And I do not see how it's being used to protect the environment.
00:34:37.700
I think other policies need to be implemented in order to make sure that we are, number one,
00:34:45.180
developing our natural resources in an environmentally sustainable manner,
00:34:49.460
and that we're getting our LNG to market, because our LNG worldwide can offset global emissions.
00:34:56.940
And we have to look at this on not just from a Canadian perspective,
00:35:01.920
but how our products could impact on lowering emissions in other countries also.
00:35:07.560
So there's lots of things that we could do to protect the environment,
00:35:12.160
which doesn't include breaking the backs of average Canadians.
00:35:17.120
When you talk about the social safety net, people having concerns for its future,
00:35:22.060
I got to say, as a parent of young children, and I look at how things are much more different now
00:35:27.320
than they were when I was growing up a couple decades ago,
00:35:29.480
and much more fragile, I want to say, in terms of being concerned about,
00:35:34.280
you know, will my kids have the benefits I had?
00:35:39.520
And there's a lot of nervousness around those questions.
00:35:42.220
What are your perspectives on dealing with the economy moving forward,
00:35:46.740
dealing with the social safety net, dealing with regular Canadians' abilities to have prosperity?
00:35:52.360
Well, Anthony, I think coming out of COVID, it's very, very important that we have a plan
00:36:02.640
I think it's very important that we do not saddle future generations with this hefty debt that we have here.
00:36:14.240
And so we need a long-term plan to do that, to reduce the deficit.
00:36:18.560
And that will only be done if we up our production.
00:36:23.100
And so we need to create economy, we need to unleash the entrepreneurial spirit in our country back again.
00:36:33.220
When we recognize that over 80% of all Canadians are employed by small and medium-sized businesses,
00:36:41.160
and they have suffered the most under COVID, we need to incentivize these businesses to take a chance again,
00:36:48.260
so that Canadians are re-employed, and that we can get the economy kick-started again.
00:36:55.100
Also, we need to invest in our supply chain, our agricultural supply chain, and our manufacturing supply chain.
00:37:03.380
If we invest in these two things, the spillover effect, and the jobs created from these sectors,
00:37:10.900
will employ many Canadians, and it will kick-start the economy.
00:37:15.580
So those are some of the things that I think that we have to be concerned about.
00:37:19.800
And one of the biggest industries for that is our oil and gas industry.
00:37:26.060
Once we could reduce some of the legislations that has been unfavorable to that industry,
00:37:33.220
and start building our pipelines, and start generating work from that industry,
00:37:39.160
you'll see a major trickle-down effect all over the country.
00:37:43.840
Leslie Lewis, before we go, what would you hope that members of the Conservative Party who are voting in this leadership race,
00:37:52.600
what would you hope they take from you as your message?
00:37:55.460
When they're looking at their ballot going, which name do I take off, what does your campaign stand for?
00:38:02.060
Well, Anthony, I would say that my campaign stands for real authenticity.
00:38:07.140
It's you have somebody here in me who you will always know will speak the truth,
00:38:16.420
will put policies forward that advance all Canadians, and will not do so in a political partisan type of way.
00:38:27.340
I know that my policies, and Canadians in general, Anthony, they want to prosper.
00:38:35.540
Whether, no matter what your colour is, no matter what part of the country you live in,
00:38:40.680
you want a united country, you want a country where your children have opportunities,
00:38:46.580
where they can have the vision of owning a home, where they can have jobs,
00:38:51.200
they have the right to work, they have a healthy environment,
00:38:54.920
they have a health care system that's there for them in the future.
00:38:58.900
They know that when they retire, after years of working, there will be a pension there for them.
00:39:06.240
And the only way that we can do that is by having a united and prosperous country
00:39:12.140
where we're all working together, all regions working together for the prosperity of our nation.
00:39:18.980
Les and Lewis, thanks so much for joining us today.
00:39:22.520
It's been a great conversation. Good luck to you.
00:39:29.700
This episode was produced by Andre Proulx, with theme music by Bryce Hall.
00:39:36.140
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00:39:41.180
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00:39:44.000
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