Let’s definitely not copy what they’re doing in Europe
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Summary
David Harsanyi is a senior writer at National Review, a contributor to the New York Post, and an author of multiple books, including his latest, Eurotrash: Why America Must Reject the Failed Ideas of a Dying Continent.
Transcript
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They're doing things so much better than in Canada and the United States.
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David Harsanyi is a senior writer at National Review, a contributor to the New York Post,
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and an author of multiple books, including his latest get-a-load of this title,
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Eurotrash, Why America Must Reject the Failed Ideas of a Dying Continent.
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Things are doing all right here, and I'm watching what's going on in the U.S. with some great
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I'd like to get your thoughts on a couple things before we talk about your new book that's out,
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particularly, I guess, what's going on with these, I can't really call them midterms,
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but you had some elections in Virginia where it flipped Democrat to Republican, and then
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some stuff going on in New Jersey where, I guess, the New Jersey Democrat governor did
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get re-elected, but a razor-slim margin, not what people thought, and then a couple state
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So I guess I'm hearing from some Republicans, oh, this is the beginning of some great surge,
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some wave, but I don't know if there should be more cautiousness required on that.
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What's your read of the state of the nation right now?
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Well, I would say that typically, you know, first-term presidents see some blowback.
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In the first midterm, obviously, this wasn't a midterm, but in essence, we can treat it
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Obviously, you have some anxieties about the economy because of inflation and other reasons,
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but in Virginia specifically, you have basically the manifestation, I guess, of the fight over
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schools in a way, over masking, over how race issues are taught in schools.
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Virginia was a red state for a long time, but it turned, I would say it's turned blue,
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And to see it flip, I think, should be concerning for Democrats.
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Well, I should say there's been a, there's an intellectual, I call it an argument or curriculum
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And it does exist in Virginia schools, but it wasn't taught, there wasn't a widespread teaching
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of it, though there certainly was some, you know, some districts that wanted to do that.
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I think it's become a shorthand for the sorts of, what would you call it, identitarian kind
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of lessons that people are, that kids are taught in schools about race, you know, about,
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how can I say, you know, that how white people are all collectively guilty for these things
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or sort of long-term, long-term racial problems in the country.
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Whatever it is, I mean, I think there's a lot of anxiety, again, by parents, but how it's
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taught and it's sort of kind of tied into the mask wearing and things weirdly like, you
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know, and being away from school and I think school choice issues.
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So I think that that, that is what spurred a lot of anger generally about schools.
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But I just quickly want to say on top of that, when these issues come up, rather than dealing
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with them in, in, in, by debunking what was being said, you had Terry McAuliffe and others
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saying things like, you know, parents shouldn't really have a say in curriculums, things like
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that, which should seem, I think to many voters to be just elitist and, and disconnected from
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I would say up here in Canada, there's a lot more parental disconnect from having a say
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in the curriculum, what's going on in the schools in the U S is it, is it just Republicans who
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are pushing to more be involved in the nitty gritty of the education system or, or is it
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across the board as a broader sort of American parental culture thing?
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I think it's an American parental culture thing.
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Again, I'm not even sure how Canadian school systems run, but here, you know, there are
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So we have local communities running their schools and, uh, you know, so, so parents have
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They have more access to the people who are bored or who are running schools.
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I mean, and the most American thing to do is go down and yell at the school board members,
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but of course the thing is, uh, yeah, I've seen those viral videos.
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But you know, the thing is not every parent can get what they want, which is why, you know,
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And I think that that has actually, um, benefited, I guess, from, from what happened last year
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One of the other things I find really interesting, you know, here in Canada, like, like I guess
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everywhere, uh, pro lockdown, anti-lockdown has been rather politicized and along some partisan
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But at the same time, there's been more dynamic things happening in the U S I remember,
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I guess a year ago, uh, New York schools were closed throughout, uh, the various boroughs.
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And then in, I want to say the Bronx, a lot of parents, mostly moms, working class moms,
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uh, who were not all white, not all Republican.
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They took to the streets and they demanded Bill de Blasio reopen the schools.
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And I was always pushing, you know, we got to reopen the schools and we didn't and so
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But it seems like there was a lot of activism going on around COVID stuff all throughout
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the U S and even among people who are maybe traditionally democratic voters.
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The big swing in Virginia, for instance, happened in counties that had turned Democrat, um, in
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Northern Virginia, where you have a lot of people moving out from the DC area and coming
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So these are suburban families or moms or voters who, who were Democrats basically last
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Maybe they were turned off by Donald Trump, whatever it was, I think that the school issue
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They're not as ideological as a lot of baby deep urban vote, you know, voters or white
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voters, probably as far as minority voters, there's always been some kind of, uh, I wouldn't
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say it's predominant position, but there's always been much more, uh, openness and sympathetic
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year for, uh, having money, follow kids and giving them more choices because of the failing
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So in inner cities quite often, so it is far more complicated than just Republican and
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First of all, I just got to ask you the Donald Trump question.
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It wasn't much of a honeymoon period or pretty much no honeymoon period for Biden polling numbers,
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We see the images of what's happening at the border, China threatening conflicts over Taiwan.
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It's hard to say because he doesn't act in ways that I guess I would consider rational.
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Um, right now I'm sure he's, uh, he's looking at poll numbers and probably feeling decent
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Um, but it's, it's, it's a complicated situation.
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I I've noticed some pushback from the, from people who actually like him in the sense that
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he, he seems to take credit for any conservative or Republican victory where he has very little
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I think his star is fading a bit with, even with his hardcore fans, but, uh, it's yet to
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Uh, lots of people interest in what Florida governor Ron DeSantos has been doing or where he
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What are some other figures you think, uh, would either say, yes, I want to run.
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Even if Trump says he is running, or at least those who, if Trump says, no, I'm standing
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down, uh, they would search to the four who would be the other big names.
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Well, DeSantis brings together, uh, both the Trump wing, I think in the more, you know,
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old school movement, conservative wing in a way that probably no other candidate does.
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I know Chris Christie looks like maybe he would run.
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I don't really see that, uh, uh, Nikki Haley, former governor of, uh, South Carolina, who's
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more of a, uh, you know, a, uh, traditional Republican in the George W. Bush mold, I guess,
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um, would probably run, uh, can't really think who else is out there.
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Well, I guess besides DeSantos, people found what he did, uh, with the COVID rules either.
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Well, a lot of people were abhorred by it, depending on the views.
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And other people found this is the one person in like the world, or at least in the Western
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world or North America, standing up for freedom and sort of seen policy so aggressively.
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So if, I guess if anybody has this sort of conviction, politician rallying crime, maybe
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Well, there'll probably be a ton of candidates if Trump doesn't run in the sense that, uh,
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you know, you'll have the anti-Trump candidates, maybe, you know, and then you'll have the
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Trump, the more Trumpy candidate, the MAGA candidate, and then DeSantis, who is kind of
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has a Trump quality to him, but he is, he's actually quite sharp in debates and things of
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that nature in the set, in a way that Donald Trump wasn't really.
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So, um, I, I think if I had to pick anyone as the leading candidate for Republicans, it'd
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He's also, he's also governor of a big state and, uh, that's quite important in, in any,
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You know, when you were talking about the COVID stuff, parents doing activism, I was like,
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oh man, we got to copy some of the ideas they're doing in the U S up here in Canada.
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Uh, but the, the sort of point of your new book, the thrust of your new book, Euro trash,
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is that there's a lot of people saying, well, the place you got to be taking your cues
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from is from Europe and from European countries, Euro trash, why America must reject the failed
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I see that you did not choose to, uh, uh, approach that headline or subtitle by, uh, by, by going
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What's you're really saying, uh, like, watch out.
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These guys do not actually have their act together.
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Well, um, yeah, I mean, that's what I'm saying.
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And just broadly speaking, I noticed, um, over the past, going back in history, obviously there's
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always been elites in this country and the United States have always looked towards Europe for,
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You know, they think Europeans are more sophisticated.
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You saw a lot of that, but I noticed over the, over the past, maybe 10 years, you have.
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Not, not just, um, pundits and academics, but politicians saying, Hey, Europe's doing this
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You'd never have an American, you know, politician talking about Europe in that way.
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Um, so, but they were saying a lot of things I thought needed debunking.
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So there's two, my book is about two, on two different planes, I guess.
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One is, you know, policy ideas and arguments that should be debunked, but also cultural aspects
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of American society that were just different than Europeans in many ways.
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Yeah, well, well, let's talk, let's talk about the cultural stuff first, because I know we're
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supposed to, or at least this is how in Canada we're taught to think about it.
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We always have the kind of, we're supposed to, I don't want to say look down on the U S but
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because we're the smaller power and we always rely on you guys for military stuff, we always
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have to find ways we're kind of insecure about it.
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So we have to make these sort of snippy comments and so on.
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And, and, and part of that is talking about Europe as being much more, much more refined
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sensibility, much more cultured, much more cosmopolitan.
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And that's supposed to be one of the guiding lights as to why we should look to Europe more,
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Well, I would say that if you go, you know, a few miles outside of Paris, Berlin or other
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countries, and you see these sprawling, you know, suburbs of, you know, that are filled
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with poverty and lack of assimilation and generational unemployment and things like that.
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I don't find that at all refined or sophisticated.
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But I would say this on a cultural level, I understand why people look at Americans, think
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of them as slack jawed yokels with guns and all of that.
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But you guys say it in a bad way, which is what I don't understand.
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I mean, I think that Americans are far more, they're open to risk.
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They have a certain kind of cultural sensibility about where in they weigh safety and, you
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And they just look at the world in a very different way than Europeans do for, I'm sure
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Canada, no expert on Canada, obviously, but obviously you have Western Canadians or different
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But in general, I think Americans are far more open to taking risks, to living their lives
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in ways that Europeans would not be because of, you know, because of long held cultural
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But I think that that drives the differences in policy as well.
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Well, yeah, when it comes to innovation, is it not fair to say, and I don't have any sort
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of charts or numbers in front of me that we're getting far more innovation in terms of, you
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know, medical technology, you know, cutting technology in this sector or that sector from
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American institutes more so than we are from European institutes?
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I mean, the top 30 tech companies in the world right now, only one is from in Europe, which
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The rest are almost all American and Chinese companies and Japanese companies.
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There is, when it comes to technological innovation, the United States leads, I think in 2020, every
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single Nobel Prize winner was either an American or a team with an American on it.
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A lot of the tech companies I just mentioned have first and second generation immigrants come
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here, who came here and came up with these ideas that made them tons of money, right?
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And, but even on lower levels, like doctors, there's a movement from East to West.
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So you have, you know, Hungarians, Polish, you know, innovators, or they move to England,
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Germany, and English and Germans and French move to the United States to do things and also
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And yeah, I mean, I have many statistics in the book to show that as when it comes to
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innovations, medical innovations, pharmaceutical innovations, the United, without, you know,
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the United States leads in almost all of those areas.
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And you know, it's funny when, when people talk about working in Europe, one of the things,
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all the things they talk about, I guess, are things that are not so productivity enhancing.
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You know, I, it's a routine thing to hear someone go, you know what, we should do what
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they do in Europe and we should have the siesta.
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So, you know, you have lunch and then you go to bed for three hours or whatnot.
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And I'm like, that's kind of like the time when like deals are made, is it not?
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That's kind of like when stuff is going to happen there and so forth.
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So I totally get that they're, they're more relaxed in many ways.
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And the vacation weeks, I think in the workplace that they accrue are perhaps more so than here.
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And I think they like, don't take their cell phones with them, or at least they de-link
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So they're not doing the work emails all the time when, when they're out on vacation, which
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sometimes, you know, I wish I could do, but you know, there's like a good side and
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Is that when you ask a European in polls, would they prefer to have a job for life or
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would they rather be their own boss and take some risk?
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Like you ask Americans, this over 80% want to be their own boss.
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And in Europe, it's like more like 20 something percent.
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You have, there's always a story in the Atlantic here or some Euro file magazine where they're
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talking about, can you believe how many, look at all these hours Americans work and
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But actually Americans get meaning from work and they like to work and most like their
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The idea that Americans don't like to work or work makes them unhappy is simply untrue.
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Of course, what are you going to ask someone if you're happy?
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You know, I, you know, Scandinavian person will almost always say yes.
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While other, an Irish person will always say no, but you know it's clear that these are
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You want to take siesta, you can, but you're just not going to be as successful.
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And then you can do that if you like here in France, for instance, that these, there
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were regulations telling, you know, bosses, they can't call you on a weekend, et cetera.
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And I know they also have a lot of, I don't know what you call them, like sclerotic rules
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around hiring and firing a lot of challenges where if you hire an employee, I mean, yeah,
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we all have our HR and employment laws, you know, all across the Western world, but some
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of the ones in places like France are just really, really restrictive for the employer.
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So it's obviously, it's difficult to fire people.
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We see that here sometimes in union shops where, you know, it's hard to fire someone who
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And the, listen, I understand the, you know, why people do that and how we want to protect
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But it also inhibits movement in, in, in, in Americans move around from job to job far
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And, you know, and in the end, I mean, I, you know, if you care, if wealth matters and
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we start, you know, we start thinking about per capita wealth, the United States is way
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I have the stat kind of blew my mind, but in Britain, Britain wasn't a state in the United
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States, their per capita income on average would be less than the second poorest in the state
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Most European countries on the bottom third, only ones that perform well above are like
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Luxembourg, not above, above other European countries are city states like Luxembourg
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So on that note, would you say that Brexit was the UK, like, are they further isolating
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themselves and going down this road in a negative way?
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Or were they like putting up the firewall and they're saying, you know what, we're, we're
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done with all of this stuff, the, the failed ideas, uh, we're doing it the American way
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Like what, what's this going to result in for them?
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I think the British have always were a tough fit for, for, uh, the European union.
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When, when Churchill actually spoke about a European state modeling, you know, a super
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And even then he didn't mention that the British would be part of it.
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The French initially didn't even want them to participate.
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They're far, they've always been far more, uh, capitalistic, I guess, or free market
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We have tons of bureaucracy and problems there, but they've always been a tough fit.
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Um, and I think that a lot of, uh, people in Britain just got sick of the, the, the regulatory
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regime of the European union in their everyday lives.
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When it comes to light bulbs or the foods, they, things like that.
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So I think it was just kind of a, a bunch of microaggressions that, you know, made them
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mad, but, um, in, in general, I just never, I don't think that was much of a fit and they
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didn't really need it, will they be more isolated?
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I doubt it because they'll just probably make their own economic agreements with the
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So I just don't think much will change for them.
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We have to take a short break, but we'll be back in just a moment after this message.
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David, I want to return to the subtitle, uh, why America must reject the failed ideas
00:20:10.140
We haven't spoken yet about what is it about Europe that is dying?
00:20:14.540
Um, well, it's literally dying in the sense that it's very old and people don't have
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So Germany, I believe now is the second oldest, uh, industrialized nation after Japan.
00:20:27.440
Um, but you know, Catholic countries especially are having very few children in Italy.
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I would say traditionally Catholic countries like Italy, um, Spain, et cetera.
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So, you, you know, you have a continent that's actually dying.
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So to make up for that, they're allowed, they allowed in huge number of immigrants in a very
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short span and, uh, what they don't do well in Europe, despite what people here may think
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is assimilate newcomers or they're not tolerant in the way that Americans are.
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Now, I, I, that's not to say we're perfect or that everyone here is welcoming of all immigrants,
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but it is clear throughout history that we are much better at assimilating newcomers than
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I live in Washington DC area and I have neighbors from all over the world living here.
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Some of them would probably be killing each other in other situations and they just send
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I don't think we here as Americans, uh, understand what, what a miracle that is in some ways.
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I mean, obviously it happens in Canada and Australia, you know, but in, in, in, in Europe, countries
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have a difficult time, even, uh, assimilating a single ethnic minority into their country.
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And it's because of structural things, you know, long-term histories, things like that.
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But it's also because of the system doesn't, um, there are no expectations for these people,
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but I think to embrace the liberalism of those nations and become really active citizens.
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Yeah, they seem to have a lot more problems with extremism in Europe than, than thankfully
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we have in Canada and I guess in the United States.
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And one wonders to what degree would that be addressed if they were able, uh, to have
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I mean, Muslim Americans are incredibly successful.
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They have, uh, per capita, per, per family basis, make over a hundred thousand dollars
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a year, which is very, one of the highest and, and are generally secular and assimilated.
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It's not to say there is never any kind of extremism, but it's rare.
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Whereas in say France or even in parts of, uh, England and London, you know, you have entire
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neighborhoods that are compartmentalized and they have, you know, they have not embraced
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the liberalism of that nation because, because I think partly because of the economic reasons
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where they're not, you know, there's, like I said, generational unemployment and all these
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But also I think they're looking, you know, when people look for meaning in their lives
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and the one, you know, they, they find it in faith and, um, without any kind of, can
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I say competing idealism that you might find in your nation state or whatever they, you
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know, they rely on the old and liberal ideas that they sometimes have.
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Now, I know there are some people out there, uh, various immigration, refugee activists
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who would counter and say, well, that's just the nature of geography.
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And of course there's those, those upward pressures that, uh, Southern European countries
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They've had border crises and they say, well, Canada and the United States, you're doing
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well with your immigration because you're selecting people by economic criteria.
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Uh, you're bringing in people who you already know are going to be pretty successful.
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Uh, you need to go and you need to do your fair share and bring in much more refugees
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You need, you need to help out and take some of those people who are in the queue, uh, to
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Well, I, I don't know what Canada system's like, but the United States, we've been a lot,
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we've, we take refugees from all over the world.
00:23:43.900
You know, there is, it's untrue that we're, I know that there's been a push for that sort
00:23:48.860
of economic system, but, uh, we allow, uh, you know, I mean, going back to the early,
00:23:53.420
you know, to the 1800s, you have Irish immigrants coming in, certainly weren't for Jewish immigrants,
00:23:58.760
And later, um, from Central America and Mexico, you have a huge, you know, huge immigration.
00:24:07.140
You take any, any people, any ethnic minority, any single one from the Japanese who are the
00:24:13.120
most successful here to whatever Nigerians, and they will always be better off here than
00:24:19.800
There's a famous quote where this, uh, economist told Milton Friedman, who was a classical liberal
00:24:25.660
economist, uh, told him, you know, we have no poverty in Scandinavia.
00:24:30.980
We have no Scandinavians who are poor in the United States either.
00:24:34.160
You know, we, I, I, I would challenge anyone to show me which ethnic minority here does, does
00:24:43.640
And it's not because we're just picking and choosing, you know, Nigerians who are the richest.
00:24:49.220
I mean, Nigerians live on $1.90 a month, I think is the average.
00:24:52.900
I might be a little bit off there, but when they come here, they, they make almost a hundred
00:25:00.300
So you're saying we need to avoid adopting a lot of these ideas that have caused problems
00:25:04.100
for these various European countries, turning them into a dying continent.
00:25:08.060
And yet when the American president, when the Canadian prime minister go and meet at these
00:25:12.600
international gab fests, they're at the G7, they're at the G20, which has a whole lot
00:25:18.900
And then I guess there can be a little bit of a peer pressure, uh, gang up where they
00:25:25.180
I mean, are, are we not just heavily exposed to the constant drumbeat of we got to do what
00:25:31.500
And again, I, you know, when I make this comparison, I'm comparing the United States to European
00:25:36.900
nations, it's not to say European nations are, aren't wealthy and successful in their
00:25:41.040
own ways compared to many other nations, obviously.
00:25:44.200
And it's not to say that Europeans never have any good ideas.
00:25:46.360
I mean, the, you know, most of our best ideas here in the United States are ideologically
00:25:50.600
speaking and philosophically speaking, come from Europe and have a tradition in Europe.
00:25:56.480
It doesn't mean everyone can benefit from them, but they come from Europe.
00:26:00.040
Um, the problem I think is, is that they've abandoned most of those classical liberal ideas,
00:26:06.300
Um, and it's not to say that the president shouldn't go over there and say, Hey, maybe
00:26:10.660
But when you really look at each, um, cultural, economic, uh, you know, I, uh, data point,
00:26:19.940
you know, anything you can quantify, I mean, we, we beat them in almost every way.
00:26:23.460
So I'm not, I'm unsure why they're not asking us what they should be doing and why we're going
00:26:28.360
You know, that's an interesting idea though, bringing up how they've sort of jettisoned or
00:26:31.680
abandoned their own traditional, uh, European ideals from, from several centuries ago, because
00:26:37.120
of course you can still see and feel how American politics and civil society very much has those
00:26:44.660
I know there's, it's hotly debated and, and there's always a lot of drama over that and
00:26:51.540
Um, but, but still it, it seems to run through the American culture very, very vibrantly.
00:26:57.600
Um, why is it that America has, has held onto those values much more than Europe has held on
00:27:03.360
to the original values that gave them their initial, uh, prosperity and strong bonds?
00:27:10.840
I would say this as a, you know, I'm an atheist.
00:27:12.900
I think that the faith and the religion, religious aspects of the United States, the competition
00:27:17.760
and faith and the, and the serious way in which a lot of people still take it.
00:27:21.160
Uh, the belief that there's something bigger than yourself, certainly something bigger than
00:27:24.900
the state, um, lends itself to taking documents that have, you know, foundational rights, um,
00:27:33.580
Uh, anyone, everyone, uh, people have noted this, but, you know, Stalin era communist constitutions
00:27:40.360
You know, they had first amendments, second amendments and all that, but no one really takes them
00:27:46.180
And I think that that's the difference now, obviously, you know, there are always specific
00:27:51.140
fights you can have about those amendments and how they're supposed to be implemented.
00:27:54.120
But in general, in the United States, we always agreed that the free speech, uh, you know,
00:27:59.620
so the right self-defense, these things were quite important.
00:28:02.100
I wouldn't say that I think that that's going in a different direction right now, but in general,
00:28:07.600
And when you do that, you don't turn to different sorts of, uh, deities, for instance, you know,
00:28:12.660
when you want to fill that void of fascism or communism, or now this gigantic bureaucracy,
00:28:17.740
uh, that just doesn't work out for human beings because, uh, there's really nothing to be found
00:28:23.960
As I mentioned, no one's going to pick up a gun and defend the European union.
00:28:27.540
No, it's just an economic, uh, conglomerate, you know?
00:28:34.180
Speaking of global gab fests, we just had the COP26, uh, global climate change summit in
00:28:39.040
Glasgow, uh, lots of push always for, well, from our own prime minister, Justin Trudeau
00:28:45.180
Now I know Joe Biden's only beginning to just broker the possibilities of a, of a domestic
00:28:49.480
carbon tax in the U S that would cost, I think only a third of what ours currently costs our
00:28:55.200
And yet I see in Europe, they're having a lot of energy problems because they really bet
00:29:02.100
And they're finding that that doesn't always materialize that, uh, uh, that renewable sources
00:29:06.540
aren't always the best way to go what's going on there with their energy policies on Europe.
00:29:10.440
And I understand that obviously Putin saying, well, Hey, I got energy.
00:29:14.240
And it just seems like the whole thing's a disaster waiting to happen.
00:29:17.200
Well, one of the things that Europeans have done better is, uh, their reliance on nuclear
00:29:21.240
energy has helped them keep carbon emissions down in ways that, uh, would be impossible
00:29:26.620
But then Germany abandoned basically their nuclear program and instead is now going to get
00:29:32.540
So they have no business lecturing anyone about that.
00:29:35.240
The French have done a better job and some other nations have good programs as well.
00:29:40.520
You can't have it, you know, windmills are not going to be enough, you know, for you.
00:29:46.260
Americans like to talk about climate change, uh, you know, bills and all of this and look
00:29:51.700
towards Europe, but Europeans pay massive tax or what we would consider massive taxes on
00:30:00.880
It always is even before this spike in a way that Americans would never accept.
00:30:07.360
Even today, you know, you have a gallon of gas going for $4 and everyone's panicking
00:30:13.800
People do not want to pay a lot of money for their energy.
00:30:18.680
And the Europeans, uh, are much more open to, to paying more.
00:30:24.580
They, you know, there are other reasons why, but I just don't think that works here.
00:30:28.680
Here in Canada, we have that sort of great landmass and most of us live close to the U S border.
00:30:32.720
So we can actually drive to another Canadian city or an American city within like 90 minutes
00:30:36.740
or, or two hours, but we still can go long stretches without seeing anything.
00:30:39.760
And I remember a number of years ago, I was driving through France and you're like, oh, we,
00:30:43.100
you know, we, we got to wait until the next town or what have you.
00:30:45.340
And then there's like two fields and you're like, oh, I'm in the next town already.
00:30:48.020
It's kind of funny how like, you're like, oh yeah, this is not geographically dispersed.
00:30:51.180
Like you just sort of get to the next community.
00:30:53.480
It's kind of easy to have a little car and whatever the price of gas is.
00:30:56.960
It's the same thing with public transportation.
00:31:01.140
And, and frankly, much of that continent was flattened after world war II, so they could
00:31:06.620
But the idea that you could have just trains and let's say a place like Denver, where I'd
00:31:11.000
lived for years, people love their cars because it gives them the freedom to go where they
00:31:14.460
want and you have a constantly growing community.
00:31:17.640
It's very difficult to have mass transit in the way that many progressives here want to
00:31:22.620
simply because of the size of the, of the nation and the type of culture around cars that
00:31:29.360
So I think climate zealotry, if I can call it, that is definitely one of the things that,
00:31:32.840
that progressives in Canada and the U S would like us to mimic from Europe.
00:31:36.640
What do you think are the other sort of top concerning issues?
00:31:39.580
Like if you have to say to people, uh, look, here's my message, here's one or two or three
00:31:50.200
Well, I have to say my biggest concern I think is, is, is building out the welfare
00:31:53.960
state in the way that, uh, Scandinavian nations have it obviously scaled to the United States.
00:31:59.480
That wouldn't entail building massive bureaucracies that infringe on individual freedoms,
00:32:04.360
but also worse elbow out community in the way that we know it locally.
00:32:09.480
So, um, you know, during COVID you have the CDC essentially running the country, making
00:32:14.980
laws, compelling people to act in certain ways.
00:32:21.540
Having bureaucrats run your country is, is dangerous.
00:32:24.860
I think it inhibits the dynamism that you were used to competition and the welfare state
00:32:31.200
Listen, I think there are poor people who need help and there always will be, and we
00:32:35.320
should do what we can, but when you start expanding the welfare state to everyone, like
00:32:38.700
they do in Scandinavia, Scandinavian countries, that is, uh, you know, that's a completely
00:32:46.460
I think that that would make America, listen, we, we, we, I keep saying, listen, sorry, but
00:32:51.140
you are listening, but the, the, the United States, even if it became like Europe would
00:32:55.480
not become this, uh, would not be Nazi Germany or something.
00:32:59.140
It would still be a relatively free and rich country, but I think it would be a more insipid
00:33:05.460
I think the people would be less free to do the things they want to do.
00:33:09.480
It's not as if I think, you know, that Germany is the Germany of old or anything.
00:33:13.400
I just think that it's un-American to try to transpose their culture and society on arms.
00:33:19.760
You know, David, I got to tell you before we go, one of the things that, that frustrated
00:33:23.520
me so much with, with COVID in the past year and a half is that whenever we had a European
00:33:28.600
country and Sweden was the main one that said, yeah, we're not doing the lockdowns.
00:33:33.620
I'd always, the number of times I was on a radio program and I'd rant and rave and say,
00:33:36.760
everyone tells us we got to be more like Europe, particularly Northern Europe, particularly
00:33:43.000
And then suddenly they're doing things like, oh, maybe we should try over here.
00:33:47.360
And now we're seeing it more and more, all of them, Denmark, Norway, Finland, just throw
00:33:51.900
They're all just saying like, no, we're not doing the COVID case counts anymore.
00:33:57.860
I just feel like I'm fully on board with the thesis of your book.
00:34:01.140
I just feel like this is the one situation where I wish we could flip it over.
00:34:05.400
It's like, why can't we talk about what they're doing?
00:34:09.540
You know, I started writing this before COVID and most of it was done before COVID.
00:34:16.440
But, you know, so it's a more general, don't be like Europe.
00:34:19.500
But I noticed, yeah, Sweden, for instance, did not lock down its economy and it did better
00:34:25.180
And, you know, I think all Europeans had very different reactions to this.
00:34:29.140
So it's difficult to just generalize about the whole continent.
00:34:32.920
They did things, I think, that we should be more interested in.
00:34:35.300
And now you see the big protests in some of the countries, which actually surprised me.
00:34:38.960
I mean, Europeans typically don't do that sort of thing when they do it when they're part
00:34:43.280
of a union and don't want to work, but they usually don't do it for their personal freedom.
00:34:49.060
I don't think that the general trends change, but there is maybe something going on there,
00:34:54.180
Are you optimistic that we're going to make the right choice, that things are going to
00:34:59.160
And Europe, to your point, may actually say, yeah, maybe we should pay attention to what
00:35:03.080
Or do you think that this is a bit of an inexorable decline?
00:35:10.840
I'm completely pessimistic about the future in that sense.
00:35:14.200
I think that right now in the United States, you have the left, which has gone far more
00:35:19.800
progressive, that is trying to grow what I view as a welfare state.
00:35:24.160
But you also have the right or parts of the right here that are increasingly open to illiberal
00:35:30.500
ideas about the world that look to Hungary and other places in Eastern Europe as examples
00:35:39.740
Basically, I think if government's doing something, it's probably wrong, which is why I'm a big
00:35:44.100
The book is Eurotrash, Why America Must Reject the Failed Ideas of a Dying Continent, the
00:36:01.860
This episode was produced by Andre Proulx, with theme music by Bryce Hall.
00:36:08.260
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