Full Comment - Mark Carney falls right into a Hamas trap

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00:00:30.980 Canada is set to jettison decades of diplomatic policy,

00:00:35.100 throw aside the stated will of Parliament,

00:00:37.040 and recognize, unilaterally, a Palestinian state.

00:00:40.660 Hello and welcome to the Full Comment Podcast.

00:00:42.680 I'm Brian Lilly, your host,

00:00:44.320 and a different kind of episode today.

00:00:46.260 Prime Minister Mark Carney made his unilateral decision,

00:00:49.380 his declaration of Canada's new foreign policy, on Wednesday.

00:00:53.060 It's true, foreign policy is something that the executive branch,

00:00:56.520 led by the Prime Minister, is in charge of.

00:00:59.140 But in March 2024, just over a year ago, Parliament was presented with a motion

00:01:03.600 that sought to have Canada recognize a Palestinian state.

00:01:07.640 It caused debate.

00:01:08.600 It caused controversy.

00:01:09.920 And in the end, it was not adopted.

00:01:12.460 Instead, a different motion calling for movement towards a two-state solution was adopted.

00:01:18.000 Canada's position going back decades has been that there should be a two-state solution.

00:01:23.040 A sovereign and independent Israel living side by side with a sovereign and independent Palestinian state,

00:01:29.060 but in peace.

00:01:29.880 But to achieve that would require an end to terrorist attacks,

00:01:34.020 out of Gaza, out of the West Bank,

00:01:36.000 and a recognition by the Palestinians of Israel's right to exist.

00:01:40.100 And so far, those conditions have not been met.

00:01:42.240 They never have been.

00:01:43.660 Now, we're going ahead with a new policy,

00:01:45.900 one dreamt up by Mark Carney, our newly elected PM,

00:01:48.940 who has a habit of making decisions and changing policy

00:01:51.920 without the support or even the consultation of Parliament.

00:01:55.640 And that's what he did with his announcement last Wednesday.

00:01:59.400 For the reasons I cited earlier,

00:02:00.820 Canada intends to recognize the state of Palestine

00:02:03.300 at the 80th session of the United Nations General Assembly in September 2025.

00:02:10.680 This intention is predicated on the Palestinian Authority's commitment to much-needed reforms,

00:02:16.640 including commitments by the Palestinian Authority's President Abbas

00:02:20.280 to fundamentally reform its governance,

00:02:22.640 to hold general elections in 2026 in which Hamas can play no part

00:02:27.520 and to demilitarize the Palestinian state.

00:02:32.360 Canada will increase its efforts in supporting strong democratic governance in Palestine

00:02:37.240 and the contributions of its people to a more peaceful and hopeful future.

00:02:43.560 I spoke today with President Abbas at length to reaffirm his commitments.

00:02:48.560 Now, Carney's decision has brought him much applause from some elements of Canadian society,

00:02:54.040 much derision from others.

00:02:55.980 We will hear from the Conservatives.

00:02:57.900 And Conservative MP for Calgary Heritage, Shufalo and Majumdar, in a little bit.

00:03:02.080 He is someone who has experience working with building,

00:03:05.440 well, nascent democracies, building democratic institutions.

00:03:09.120 And he has thoughts on whether the caveats, the conditions that Carney has put in place

00:03:14.520 are possible, even if the Palestinian Authority attempts to live up to them.

00:03:19.560 But first, I had a chance to speak with Israel's ambassador to Canada,

00:03:24.260 Idot Moued.

00:03:25.380 He is someone who is beside himself at Canada's decision.

00:03:29.400 So, Ambassador, were you surprised by Prime Minister Mark Carney's decision to make this announcement

00:03:35.580 on a Wednesday when most Canadians were likely wondering,

00:03:40.380 was he going to be talking about a trade deal with the United States?

00:03:46.240 I was quite surprised.

00:03:47.720 Yes, I can say that.

00:03:49.000 We got some indications earlier in the week that something was in the works.

00:03:54.500 But I think that given the fact that Prime Minister spoke about a Palestinian so-called Zionist state,

00:04:01.440 we were quite surprised when he came up with this statement, yes.

00:04:05.200 So, sorry, you just mentioned his comments about the Palestinian Zionist state.

00:04:10.580 That was something that really upset a lot of Canadians in the Muslim community.

00:04:16.660 The National Council of Canadian Muslims, they called on him to apologize for that.

00:04:21.500 Many others did.

00:04:22.360 To me, that seemed like, okay, an actual good statement because he was calling, in my view,

00:04:30.840 for a Palestinian state that would recognize Israel's right to exist.

00:04:36.140 But on Wednesday, in doing what he did, he effectively, in my view, and I'd like to hear yours,

00:04:44.000 said that, well, we're going to recognize a Palestinian state even if it means acknowledging a Palestinian state

00:04:53.800 that is run by people who do not respect Israel's right to exist.

00:04:59.920 Yes, exactly.

00:05:00.960 And so there is a huge gap there, and that is something that is, for us, very difficult to understand.

00:05:06.640 When we look at the statement, we see the use of the word predicated on something,

00:05:12.840 and my, you know, limited knowledge of English, I must admit, I had to check what does that mean.

00:05:18.840 And it is assuming that the Palestinians will indeed follow through and do whatever they are committed to do,

00:05:29.100 or whatever Mahmoud Abbas told Prime Minister Karni in the phone conversation.

00:05:34.400 But to me, at the end of the day, it's not about a deal.

00:05:36.760 There is no deal here.

00:05:37.660 It's not a tariff deal.

00:05:38.740 There is no document here, and there is no pledge.

00:05:41.580 There is a sort of an indication from the Palestinians, which we've heard so many times from the same Mahmoud Abbas for 20 years.

00:05:49.240 And so Prime Minister Karni is new to this, and I know that he's not fully familiar with the fact that Mahmoud Abbas has committed in writing to have elections to stop the pay-for-slay practices,

00:06:06.540 which is rewarding terrorists who have killed Israelis with a pension and so on.

00:06:11.280 Sorry, if I can pause you there, Ambassador.

00:06:13.620 A lot of Canadians don't know what pay-for-slay is.

00:06:17.200 They've never heard of that.

00:06:18.400 They don't know it.

00:06:20.080 So can you just take 30 seconds to a minute to explain what pay-for-slay is and why this is something that Israelis are just saying,

00:06:30.480 no, that is a bridge too far?

00:06:34.020 So states and entities, let's say the Palestinian Authority, rewards Palestinian terrorists who have killed Israelis in terrorist actions by paying them a pension,

00:06:46.860 which is we consider that a pay-for-slay.

00:06:50.040 So the more Israelis, the more significant the terrorist attack they inflicted on Israel, the higher payment they get.

00:06:57.540 This is a practice that's been going on for many, many years, and this is happening with international money.

00:07:02.860 Yeah, they could be in jail.

00:07:03.940 They could be out of jail, but the families will get the money.

00:07:07.840 But it's a practice that's been maintained, which in our eyes, it's an exact direct motivation for Palestinians to continue to attack Israel.

00:07:16.000 All right.

00:07:17.380 So you mentioned the prime minister's caveat within a statement that said, and I'm reading from a statement,

00:07:23.960 This intention is predicated on the Palestinian Authority's commitment to much-needed reforms, including the commitments by the Palestinian Authority President Abbas to fundamentally reform its governance to hold general elections in 2026, in which Hamas can play no part.

00:07:44.220 Now, my understanding is that, well, Mahmoud Abbas was elected 20 years ago.

00:07:50.100 Now, he was elected to a four-year term.

00:07:55.580 He hasn't held an election in 20 years, despite being elected to a four-year term, and in part because he knows that Hamas would be elected in the West Bank as well.

00:08:07.640 So he holds sway in the West Bank, not in Gaza.

00:08:10.960 And if he held an election, Hamas would win.

00:08:17.180 Am I wrong in that?

00:08:19.620 Let's unpack this.

00:08:21.300 Let's start with the fact that Prime Minister Carney has pledged to do something now in return for something that may happen in 2026.

00:08:32.260 There is not even a date set for it.

00:08:34.340 And as you said, Mahmoud Abbas was elected into office many, many years ago, 20 years ago.

00:08:41.600 Elections have not been held because, indeed, Hamas holds the majority according to Palestinian polls.

00:08:47.100 There is something else that we need to understand, that Hamas and Fatah, which is the faction that Mahmoud Abbas is from,

00:08:53.940 these two organizations have never been able to reach an agreement amongst themselves how the Palestinian state or entity should look like, what it should look like.

00:09:07.500 They're actually competing.

00:09:08.920 They're actually fighting against each other for the same period of years.

00:09:13.740 So our countries, China, the U.S., the European Union, many people try to sort of reconcile between those two parties to no avail.

00:09:24.000 So they are in direct conflict.

00:09:26.420 So it's not just the issue with Israel.

00:09:28.260 It's the internal Palestinian issue that's completely unresolved.

00:09:31.660 And so hoping for a Palestinian state on paper that somehow with the prayer of, I don't know what, a miracle will happen,

00:09:42.160 is not going to make any difference.

00:09:43.960 But even more important, and that is something that we haven't mentioned up until now, Brian,

00:09:48.340 and that is that this deal does not make any difference for our hostages.

00:09:52.620 It does not make any difference for a ceasefire.

00:09:55.720 It does only one thing.

00:09:57.720 It gives Hamas an enormous boost and a backwind that allows them to feel that they are not obliged to sit at a negotiating table.

00:10:08.180 They are not obliged to talk about a ceasefire or release of the hostages.

00:10:11.180 And that is, I think, the biggest problem that we have with this exactly at the most sensitive period of time of this very crucial negotiation,

00:10:21.000 where even the interlocutors, which is Egypt and Qatar, are, you know, putting their hands in the air and saying Hamas is not budging and not moving.

00:10:33.180 At that same period, this is when Hamas gets this support, this international support by recognition of a Palestinian state,

00:10:41.180 which is a direct reward for the 7th of October.

00:10:44.640 Okay.

00:10:44.900 So Prime Minister Carney would say, well, this is a movement towards peace.

00:10:49.140 This will move us towards a two-state solution.

00:10:53.880 What do you say to that?

00:10:56.280 It's moving us towards a state solution just that it's, you know, like it does not.

00:11:02.740 In no way, shape or form does it move us closer.

00:11:05.940 Because to have a two-state solution, you need a Palestinian, one.

00:11:10.140 One single Palestinian that will say, I want to have a two-state solution.

00:11:16.120 I don't think that Prime Minister Carney can name one.

00:11:19.240 Even Mahmoud Abbas is not in for a two-state solution.

00:11:23.260 He's never said that.

00:11:24.640 And if he said it, he's not genuine in his intentions.

00:11:27.440 There is no one single leader on the Palestinian side that is actually and genuinely looking to have a two-state solution.

00:11:35.180 And so when Prime Minister Carney mentioned yesterday the necessary decision about that,

00:11:39.320 I just want to say one short thing, addition on the Israeli side, because I know that their whataboutism will come up very quickly.

00:11:47.100 Not from you, but maybe from the audience.

00:11:49.220 And that is, what about the Israeli Knesset that rejected?

00:11:52.340 The Israeli Knesset decided that this is not the time for a two-state solution because we've come to realize that there is a majority among Palestinians that don't want that.

00:12:01.000 We've seen that through the 7th of October.

00:12:02.780 And we've seen that through the Palestinian authorities' reaction to the 7th of October, which was not in any serious way condemnation or any efforts to mitigate the aftermath of this horrific attack on Israel.

00:12:17.240 Okay.

00:12:17.460 Well, that is exactly what I wanted to ask you about, was that a lot of Canadians will say, no, no, no.

00:12:24.100 Israel rejects the two-state solution.

00:12:26.420 It's not the Palestinians.

00:12:27.820 The Palestinians want a two-state solution.

00:12:30.160 Now, I've looked at what the leaders have said.

00:12:34.100 I've looked at their positions.

00:12:35.460 I know that that is not actually accurate.

00:12:39.200 But there is this view within many in Western countries, especially among Western progressives, that say, well, it's Israel that rejects the two-state solution.

00:12:53.080 Speak to that.

00:12:53.760 In Israel, we are dealing with the aftermath of October the 7th in several ways.

00:13:00.920 One is, of course, the fact that we are doing whatever we can to get our hostages back and continue the military operation to defeat Hamas.

00:13:07.440 The other part is that we have to come to terms with the new reality that even in spite of the fact that people like Vivian Silver, a Canadian Israeli who gave her life when she was killed by, murdered by Hamas, who actually devoted her life for Palestinians to get from Gaza Strip to get medical treatment in Israel and many other things.

00:13:33.920 He was a peace activist.

00:13:34.900 Exactly.

00:13:35.380 Exactly.

00:13:36.280 The Israeli peace camp.

00:13:37.740 That peace camp was blown into oblivion by Hamas.

00:13:43.760 And they came to realize that whatever we'll do, we'll first have to deal with the hate.

00:13:48.460 We'll have first to do with the incitement, with the school books, with the atmosphere among Palestinians that reject the fact that Israel is there to stay.

00:13:59.100 And so that's why at this point in time, nobody wants to talk about a two-state solution.

00:14:03.580 We've done many concessions since the Oslo agreements, and we have come to realize that those concessions didn't bring us any closer.

00:14:11.440 When we vacated the Gaza Strip, it was with the idea that that space will be fully controlled by the Palestinians.

00:14:18.000 They will be able to prosper.

00:14:19.760 They will be able to control themselves.

00:14:21.360 There was an airport.

00:14:22.040 There was a maritime port.

00:14:24.520 All the infrastructure was there.

00:14:26.400 But instead of using that infrastructure to build a state, there was a terror monster that was created, which now forces us to fight from house to house to make sure that as many people stay out of Hans' way, but the hostages get back and Hamas is being defeated.

00:14:44.200 So we have come to realize that in this new reality, you can't just decide to make peace.

00:14:51.760 You don't just sign a piece of paper.

00:14:54.360 You have to make sure that those who incite stop to incite.

00:14:58.480 Those who hate stop to hate.

00:15:00.220 Or otherwise, we have to protect ourselves.

00:15:03.000 So we have to protect ourselves with a military force.

00:15:06.360 We have to make sure that the other side cannot attack us.

00:15:09.780 And when the Palestinian Authority speaks about demilitarization, this is one of the issues that the prime minister currently mentioned yesterday.

00:15:17.300 I don't see that they are really genuine in that effect because they're actually using their weapons against Israeli soldiers on the West Bank as we speak.

00:15:26.300 But does the Palestinian Authority have any ability to control the population in Gaza to say, all right, it's time to lay down arms.

00:15:39.000 We are going to move forward.

00:15:41.560 We're going to find a way to live side by side.

00:15:46.380 Does the Palestinian Authority have the political, the moral, the legal ability to do any of that?

00:15:55.680 Great question.

00:15:56.300 Do you know that after we left Gaza, there were elections held there?

00:16:02.340 Hamas was actually voted.

00:16:05.920 And what they did in power and what they did is to throw out all the representatives of the Palestinian Authority.

00:16:14.120 Some were thrown even from the roofs to the streets, but they were all either killed or thrown out of a Gaza Strip.

00:16:22.420 And so the Palestinian Authority has no control and no say and no possibility to control what is going on there.

00:16:28.860 And of course, they are not volunteering to do that because they know that Hamas controls it and they know that they're going to fight it.

00:16:34.740 So is Prime Minister Carney essentially negotiating for Canada's future position with a leader in Mahmoud Abbas who has no ability to deliver?

00:16:46.740 Absolutely.

00:16:47.220 That is 100% true.

00:16:49.660 Mahmoud Abbas not only has the ability to deliver, but he does have the motivation to deliver.

00:16:54.060 All right.

00:16:55.660 Ambassador, thank you for your time today.

00:16:58.080 Thank you very much for having me, Brad.

00:16:59.340 We need to take a quick break, but when we come back, a conversation with Elan Levy, an official and at times unofficial spokesperson for the Israeli government and the Israeli people who's been active since October 7th, and someone who knows and understands Canada and our place in the diplomatic world very well.

00:17:15.580 And of course, my conversation with Shufloy Majumder, Conservative MP for Calgary Heritage.

00:17:21.560 Back in moments.

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00:18:22.800 This is Tristan Hopper, the host of Canada Did What?, where we unpack the biggest, weirdest, and wildest political moments in Canadian history you thought you knew and tell you what really happened.

00:18:34.300 Stick around at the end of the episode to hear a sample of one of our favourite episodes.

00:18:38.760 If you don't want to stick around, make sure you subscribe to Canada Did What? everywhere you get podcasts.

00:18:44.780 Canada has the fourth largest Jewish population in the world after Israel, the United States, and France.

00:18:50.220 It's one of the reasons that Israel pays so much attention to what Canada says and why our voice on these issues have mattered so greatly.

00:18:58.780 Of course, we've had a growing Muslim and Arab population over the years as well, and that may be part of why the demographics have changed and so has policy.

00:19:07.600 But Elon Levy is someone who has worked for the Israeli government, someone who has been an official and unofficial spokesperson.

00:19:13.860 I met him back in January 2024 when I was in Tel Aviv, and we had a long discussion about why Canada's foreign policy mattered, why our position towards Israel and a two-state solution mattered.

00:19:25.700 And so after Carney's announcement, I felt it only right to reach out and get his view on what was happening.

00:19:31.980 So, Elon, your first reaction when you heard from the mouth of Mark Carney that Canada was going to join France and Britain in recognising a Palestinian state?

00:19:41.020 I was truly staggered that Canada would give Hamas a reward for the October 7th massacre and encourage more barbaric atrocities against Israelis.

00:19:51.240 And let's be clear, that's exactly what is happening here.

00:19:54.020 The world leaders who say they will recognise a non-existent Palestinian state in response to the October 7th massacre are encouraging Palestinians to think of October 7th as an independent state.

00:20:05.780 They're telling them that terrorism works and really shocking that world leaders who want to end this war and bring lasting peace are instead condemning us to everlasting war.

00:20:18.860 Because these world leaders, including Mark Carney, are giving Hamas absolutely no reason to end this war and free the hostages.

00:20:28.180 On the contrary, they're giving Hamas every incentive to keep this war going, to keep holding on to the hostages,

00:20:35.600 because Hamas knows the pressure will be turned up on Israel and not where it belongs, on the jihadi group that started this war and refuses to release the hostages.

00:20:43.720 Well, the July 21st communique, signed by Canada and 26 other countries, including France, the UK, Spain, Poland, Ireland, you know, the list goes on,

00:20:55.900 where the foreign affairs ministers of each of those countries signed on condemning Israel, not even mentioning Hamas.

00:21:05.260 That was put out and almost immediately thereafter, the talks in Doha broke down.

00:21:10.900 Now you've got Britain, France and Canada all saying we will acknowledge a Palestinian state and the renewed talks that were supposed to be taking place have now broken down.

00:21:22.360 This really is saying you don't have to do anything at the negotiating table, Hamas.

00:21:27.380 You just leave it to us and we'll set you up.

00:21:29.400 It's worse than that.

00:21:31.760 Those foreign ministers actively sabotaged the negotiations at a critical point.

00:21:36.660 Israel and Hamas were reportedly on the brink of a ceasefire agreement.

00:21:40.120 And then the foreign ministers stepped in, condemned Israel, turned up the pressure on Israel, and Hamas hardened its demands.

00:21:46.800 It started demanding the release of terrorists who took part in the October 7th massacre and they blew up the talks.

00:21:52.800 This is student politics we're seeing from world leaders who thought that they could pressure Israel instead of pressuring the side that was refusing a ceasefire.

00:22:02.700 But, you know, let me tell you what I found especially staggering about Mark Carney's statement.

00:22:07.460 It wasn't just that he said that recognizing a Palestinian state was in response to October 7th, acknowledging the link to terrorism, oblivious that he is encouraging terrorism.

00:22:17.620 It was the sheer arrogance of Mark Carney's statement, because he said in that statement that he's conditioning recognition of a Palestinian state on a commitment to general elections next year in which Hamas can play no part, saying Hamas can have no role in the future governance of a Palestinian state.

00:22:38.480 But, Brian, Hamas is the most popular Palestinian party.

00:22:41.500 According to Palestinian party, according to Palestinian polls, it would win a landslide if elections were held today in a head-to-head presidential election between Hamas leader Khaled Masha and Palestinian authority leader Mahmoud Abbas, Hamas would absolutely crush its rivals.

00:23:00.300 So the West here is overlooking the root cause of the conflict, which is that the Palestinian national movement still opposes Israel in any borders whatsoever.

00:23:11.760 Their goal is one Arab Islamic state from the river to the sea as people are chanting on the streets of your country.

00:23:20.200 And when people ignore that, when people fail to understand Hamas's ideology, they fail to understand the only way we can have lasting peace is if this war ends with Hamas losing, knowing it's lost, and serious de-radicalization on the Palestinian side.

00:23:38.620 So they abandon this failed strategy of continuing to wage jihad against Israel, hoping that Israel will be destroyed one day.

00:23:47.040 They were trying to achieve lasting peace.

00:23:50.060 In their naivety, they've condemned us to everlasting war.

00:23:53.180 Well, in many ways, I would say, especially over the last week, but in general, Israel has been losing the PR war, the social media war, the media headlines war.

00:24:05.480 And that became evident with the New York Times piece that showed the image of a child claiming it was starving when, no, this was not the case.

00:24:14.560 You've been down at the food distribution centers.

00:24:18.140 There has been incredible pressure on Israel because of the claim that Israel is stopping aid from going in.

00:24:25.460 You've been there.

00:24:26.620 You've witnessed it.

00:24:27.600 What did you see that the world didn't because most of the media will not bother to look or report facts that aren't first approved by the Gaza Ministry of Health, a.k.a. Hamas?

00:24:39.860 And one of the main pillars in the propaganda war against Israel has been these allegations of famine or using hunger as a weapon of war.

00:24:47.660 And we've been hearing it for the last 22 months, UN agencies crying wolf, and it never happened.

00:24:52.580 But now there is a serious hunger crisis in Gaza, and we need to understand why.

00:24:56.660 There's a hunger crisis because Hamas is continuing to wage this war, to divert aid, to loot it.

00:25:02.020 And because UN agencies, their mechanism has completely broken down, I'll tell you what I saw in Gaza this week.

00:25:08.360 I went in on Sunday to the Kerem Shalom crossing to see the piles of aid that are rotting in the sun because the UN is not picking it up.

00:25:17.420 I'm talking as far as the eye can see mountains of hummus beans and canned tuna and oil and pasta and lentils that the UN is failing to pick up.

00:25:26.700 But Israel is letting aid into Gaza now faster than the UN can pick it up.

00:25:32.000 And nearly all of the aid that the UN picks up gets looted along the way.

00:25:36.420 Don't take my word for it.

00:25:37.600 Look at the UN's own database that says that 90 percent of the trucks they pick up are not reaching their destination.

00:25:44.860 They're being looted on the way, whether by Hamas or by other armed actors.

00:25:49.180 The UN system isn't working.

00:25:51.040 You know what is working?

00:25:51.880 Israel's effort together with the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, an American company, to try to get aid directly to the people who need it.

00:26:01.760 The U.S. Special Envoy Steve Witkos was there with the Ambassador Mike Huckabee just a few hours ago.

00:26:07.620 As the GHF announced, it had distributed over 100 million meals inside Gaza.

00:26:13.960 And that's the challenge.

00:26:14.780 How do you get food to people who need it and make sure that it can't go to Hamas?

00:26:20.380 Because Hamas has been able to hijack it, to divert it, to tax it, and make an absolute fortune that is allowing it to finance this war and to carry on.

00:26:30.400 That's why Hamas is demanding as part of the ceasefire deal that aid not go through the GHF and only go through the UN.

00:26:38.520 Because it knows it's a broken mechanism that it can exploit to enrich itself.

00:26:43.480 But, you know, Brian, the real question is not how much aid is going into Gaza or how it's distributed around Gaza.

00:26:49.940 It's the fact that as long as Hamas remains inside and underneath civilians, whatever aid, whatever supplies you let in are going to end up enriching Hamas.

00:26:59.740 And the debate that real humanitarians need to be having who genuinely want to help civilians, and helping civilians means freeing them from Hamas rule and ending its tyranny,

00:27:11.400 is the question of how you separate civilians from the Hamas terrorists to make sure that Hamas cannot exploit those supplies in order to keep prolonging a war that should have ended a long time ago.

00:27:23.580 How do you expect things to play out over the coming months as we head towards that September meeting of the UN General Assembly,

00:27:32.980 where there will be more pressure, where there will be international calls, where people who aren't paying attention will say,

00:27:39.160 oh, well, the United Nations says, therefore, it's good.

00:27:43.140 And you've got this PR war over food distribution.

00:27:48.140 You've got this PR war that you've been fighting since October 7th as a spokesperson, official and otherwise, for Israel.

00:27:55.280 How do you push back in the face of this?

00:27:59.940 Or is that side of it just lost?

00:28:02.540 And even if eventually Israel physically defeats Hamas, they will be strong politically because of their ability to harness social media

00:28:12.860 and gullible Westerners.

00:28:15.760 Yeah, Israel is winning the battle on the ground.

00:28:17.780 But let's be clear that what is happening, the battle that's being fought out on TV screens,

00:28:22.100 is exactly what Hamas leader Yahya Sinua wanted.

00:28:25.740 He was not only willing, he wanted to sacrifice his own civilians on the altar of jihad

00:28:32.300 and create images of suffering that would cause cracks between Israel and its Western allies

00:28:37.560 and lead Western allies under intense domestic political pressure to take actions that will,

00:28:43.660 in fact, make this conflict worse, like what they're doing now when they blew up the ceasefire talks.

00:28:48.600 This was Hamas's plan all along.

00:28:51.100 That's why Hamas spent years preparing for this war by digging a network of military tunnels,

00:28:56.480 longer than the New York subway, underneath people's feet,

00:29:00.920 fighting from those tunnels with the shafts poking out inside homes and schools and hospitals,

00:29:05.720 in order to create images of suffering that would cause cracks between Israel and its Western allies.

00:29:13.180 And I'm afraid the West has fallen into that trap,

00:29:16.680 because at exactly the moment that we needed to turn the screws on Hamas to accept a ceasefire

00:29:21.660 and release at least some of those poor hostages who are shackled and tortured under Gaza,

00:29:28.480 they decided to put up pressure on Israel.

00:29:31.000 And that's prolonging this war.

00:29:33.480 So now I think there are only four scenarios for where we can move forward.

00:29:37.420 One, maybe the least likely, is the possibility of a temporary ceasefire.

00:29:43.280 It's what Israel and the United States were pushing for,

00:29:46.200 a 60-day ceasefire, get half the hostages out, negotiate on how to end the war.

00:29:50.840 I don't think there's any chance of that anymore.

00:29:53.100 Hamas has no reason to want a temporary ceasefire, thanks to Mark Carney and his friends.

00:29:58.980 Another option is to try to negotiate a permanent end of the war.

00:30:03.920 But that depends on Hamas being willing to relinquish power,

00:30:08.220 because if it doesn't, any reconstruction of Gaza means the reconstruction of Hamas.

00:30:13.580 And if it doesn't relinquish power, no Arab force is going to want to take responsibility

00:30:18.580 when you've got 20,000 Hamas terrorists running around with guns.

00:30:22.300 So it's not clear there's an option to end the war either.

00:30:25.860 There is another option, which is Israel decides to go all in.

00:30:29.940 Into the areas of Gaza it hasn't touched, because that's where the hostages are.

00:30:34.720 Say it's going for full military conquest of Gaza, but that's very dangerous and risky.

00:30:39.680 And the IDF chief of staff is reportedly saying, look, this is going to endanger the hostages.

00:30:44.520 This puts their lives in danger because their Hamas captors have instructions to put a bullet

00:30:49.960 in their head if we get anywhere close.

00:30:52.420 And then there is another option, which I wonder whether is being discussed in policy circles,

00:30:57.120 which is to try to freeze the war.

00:30:59.280 Instead of going further into Gaza, but definitely not retreating, saying Israel controls 75% of the

00:31:06.700 Gaza Strip now.

00:31:07.900 And if Hamas wants Israel to withdraw from any of that territory, it's going to have to give

00:31:13.620 back hostages.

00:31:15.480 Those hostages cannot remain trapped in the dungeons of Gaza any further.

00:31:19.920 And by the way, I have to say, it's a tragedy that we've reached this point.

00:31:22.620 Just this week, we saw all the countries of the Arab League condemning the October 7th

00:31:27.900 massacre, calling Hamas to release the hostages and lay down its arms.

00:31:31.720 And I'm asking, where were you for the last 22 months?

00:31:35.240 You've finally come around to accepting the legitimacy of Israel's war goals after Hamas's

00:31:40.340 invasion on October 7th.

00:31:42.340 Imagine how much suffering could have been avoided if Hamas's Qatari patrons had said 22 months

00:31:48.980 ago that Hamas must release the hostages.

00:31:51.460 But they left it too little, too late.

00:31:54.580 And as a result, Hamas feels emboldened to continue this war.

00:31:58.040 And we need global pressure on Hamas and its patrons now.

00:32:01.200 It's game over.

00:32:02.460 Gaza is not going back to Hamas rule.

00:32:04.860 The hostages have to be let out.

00:32:07.400 And the Arab League denouncing Hamas and putting pressure on them after Canada and other Western

00:32:14.040 countries decided, no, the pressure should be on Israel.

00:32:16.280 Do you have any final thoughts, Ilan, for Canadians who are not following this as closely as I

00:32:23.960 might, but who are sympathetic to Israel, but wondering, as they look at the headlines, what

00:32:29.420 they should feel, what they should support?

00:32:31.440 Final thoughts for them.

00:32:33.940 You know, yesterday, Islamic Jihad, Hamas's allies in Gaza, released a hostage video of a

00:32:39.520 young hostage called Ron Braslavsky.

00:32:41.660 He looks like a hollowed skeletal shell of a human being, staking, sobbing, begging for

00:32:49.760 his life, writhing on the floor, untreated injuries, saying he can't bear to be there

00:32:54.720 anymore and begging to be rescued.

00:32:56.600 And this is a sophisticated propaganda video that they're filming in a tunnel deep underground

00:33:01.720 with hostages we know are being shackled.

00:33:04.600 Their hands and legs are shackled and they're not being fed properly.

00:33:07.960 And the hostages are a basic humanitarian cause.

00:33:11.000 It's not about politics.

00:33:12.260 It's not about left and right.

00:33:13.540 It's not about pro-Israel or anti-Israel.

00:33:15.940 Hamas should never have taken the hostages in the first place.

00:33:18.960 And this war can only end when all the hostages are free and when Israelis are confident that

00:33:24.880 Hamas can never take hostages again.

00:33:27.780 Because we just can't take the risk of an armed jihadi terrorist group invading, marching

00:33:34.200 straight into people's homes, into their living rooms, into their bedrooms, snatching children

00:33:38.860 from their beds, snatching young people from a music party, and abducting them into tunnels

00:33:43.460 in Gaza.

00:33:44.460 That can never, ever happen again.

00:33:46.360 That's why this war has to end with all the hostages home and with Hamas never again free

00:33:51.560 to take hostages again.

00:33:53.240 Ilan, thanks so much for the time.

00:33:54.720 Thank you, Brian.

00:33:56.860 And of course, while it is great to hear from people like Ambassador Moad or Ilan Levy, of

00:34:01.680 course, this is a Canadian issue, Canadian policy.

00:34:05.480 A Conservative MP, Shivloy Majumder, is someone who's worked in foreign policy for a long time.

00:34:10.200 He has helped build nascent democratic institutions in foreign countries.

00:34:15.120 He has been a foreign policy advisor to the Harper government.

00:34:17.980 And he has been, for the past several years, a Conservative Member of Parliament.

00:34:23.200 We reached out to him and spoke on Friday.

00:34:26.480 So, Shiv, your initial reaction to Mark Carney's announcement, kind of proclamation, I understand

00:34:33.740 the executive branch holds sway over foreign policy, but this is something that was debated

00:34:40.560 in the House not long ago.

00:34:42.660 And Mark Carney has just decided, okay, we'll go against what has been Canada's position for

00:34:47.240 decades.

00:34:47.780 What were your thoughts?

00:34:50.020 Outrage.

00:34:51.020 Here is a Prime Minister who keeps handing victories to terrorists.

00:34:54.920 This isn't the only time his government has rewarded propaganda with concessions.

00:35:01.420 It's not the only time that the Prime Minister has acted for political expediency over principle,

00:35:07.480 and all while doing it wrapped in the Canadian flag.

00:35:10.300 He actually had the audacity to say that he's speaking on behalf of all Canadians.

00:35:15.380 That's not the case.

00:35:16.340 Parliament voted this motion down last year.

00:35:20.220 Nobody debated it or voted for it today.

00:35:23.500 There is no mandate.

00:35:24.800 The only Canadians he's speaking for, it's a minority government with a parliament that's

00:35:29.840 barely convened.

00:35:30.780 And the only Canadians he's actually speaking for are the extremists in his own caucus.

00:35:34.840 You are someone who, when I first met you more years ago than I care to recall, you were

00:35:44.400 working in foreign countries, including Iraq and Afghanistan, but elsewhere, trying to help

00:35:49.060 build fledgling democracies.

00:35:51.560 Now, Mark Carney is saying this is all predicated on elections in the Palestinian territories.

00:35:58.380 This is all predicated on respect for democracy.

00:36:02.160 Given that there is no history in the last 20 years, at least, of democracy, and before that,

00:36:08.680 it was a checkered past at best.

00:36:10.140 What is your takeaway on that in terms of, is that even possible?

00:36:16.860 Is it feasible?

00:36:18.500 Isn't it insane?

00:36:19.320 So, the prime minister has set one of his conditions for recognition of Palestinian statehood that

00:36:25.420 he would do this fall in September at the UN General Assembly.

00:36:28.480 He set the condition for something that would have to be realized in 2026.

00:36:33.840 How can you set a condition a year out in advance before a decision that you intend to

00:36:39.100 take this year?

00:36:40.520 It's one of the most fantastical things I think I've ever really seen, where he's expecting

00:36:45.860 a 20-year dictator in the Palestinian Authority to all of a sudden wake up one morning, and

00:36:51.620 despite the assurances that the Palestinian leadership have provided the Western world

00:36:56.680 for 20 years and never delivered on them, he expects that somehow, because he spoke to

00:37:02.120 him, that all these reforms will happen a year later from the date in which they intend

00:37:06.940 to recognize the authority and the state, which should be this fall.

00:37:10.440 It makes no sense at all.

00:37:11.680 Now, I've spoken to several people about this, and they all say, look, hold the elections

00:37:17.580 and Hamas will win.

00:37:19.900 So, again, that's another reward for a terrorist organization.

00:37:24.540 Mahmoud Abbas can promise this.

00:37:26.480 He knows politically that he's toast.

00:37:29.280 Listen, whether—we can all agree that terror organizations should not be competing in democratic

00:37:35.700 elections, and the idea that Palestinians should have elections, should have a state, is not

00:37:42.260 being debated.

00:37:42.820 The question is the nature of the state that would emerge and whether or not it's capable

00:37:47.640 of dispensing with long-held policies.

00:37:50.480 The Palestinian Authority itself has been sponsoring pay-to-slave policies in which they reward terrorists

00:37:57.540 with plum pensions that last their families for generations.

00:38:01.680 They've not dispensed with this.

00:38:03.060 They were sanctioned by the United States yesterday for carrying out this constant genocidal rhetoric

00:38:09.860 against Jews and Israelis.

00:38:12.340 We haven't seen any of the trust that the state needs to have or the authority needs to

00:38:17.160 build toward a state.

00:38:18.540 And until they achieve that trust and actually dispense with the policies that prolong conflict,

00:38:23.420 prolong war, expand and export hatred, there's not much reason to believe that the Palestinian

00:38:30.660 authority is going to move toward legitimate elections.

00:38:33.820 I mean, let's be very clear.

00:38:35.380 Prime Minister Carney is saying to the world that he is looking to recognize this state

00:38:42.020 this year for things that the Palestinian Authority will promise to do next year, and over 20 years

00:38:48.480 has earned absolutely no trust and demonstrated no real progress toward actually helping alleviate

00:38:53.980 suffering for Palestinians and helping Palestinians establish a better government for themselves.

00:38:58.920 What was the old line from Popeye and Wimpy, I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger

00:39:04.060 today?

00:39:05.020 It sounds like that sort of thing.

00:39:07.320 But Mark Carney is supposed to be the adult in the room, Shuv.

00:39:10.560 He's supposed to be part of the smart set.

00:39:13.120 I mean, we were told not only are we getting Mark Carney, but we're getting all these smart

00:39:17.040 bureaucrats around him and chiefs of staff and people who are going to run the government

00:39:22.140 properly, and this seems like a foolhardy move.

00:39:26.280 Even if this is where you want to end up, doing it now under these conditions doesn't

00:39:32.980 look like it will uphold Canadian traditions.

00:39:35.640 It doesn't look like it will hold up Canadian ideals.

00:39:38.780 So were we hoodwinked in the election by Mark Carney, or is he just showing that on foreign

00:39:46.140 policy he is completely naive?

00:39:47.840 It's a great question.

00:39:50.700 I'd like to try and ask the opposite question.

00:39:52.940 Let's assume the prime minister knows exactly what he's doing, that this is not a measure

00:39:57.480 of bad advice or incompetence, but deliberate decision-making.

00:40:01.820 It reveals something more insidious.

00:40:04.300 It reveals that he will put political expediency for his political stability in his party by pandering

00:40:09.680 to the extremists, by forsaking the national interests of the country, by putting the Liberal

00:40:14.240 Party first and Canada second.

00:40:16.400 And two, doing this on the eve of a self-declared date for when the prime minister wanted to

00:40:24.260 resolve trade negotiations with the United States, knowing that this is an antagonistic

00:40:29.160 position from those of our most important ally as they are engaged toward developing a

00:40:35.400 peace in the Middle East that is a very complex region to work in and has obviously been very

00:40:39.660 turbulent, doing this without even having called the American president or the administration

00:40:45.700 to seek advice and to seek guidance on whether or not this is an opportune moment to make these

00:40:52.660 decisions as a sovereign country.

00:40:54.020 I just think it's an abrogation of responsibility.

00:40:57.760 And if it's an intentional one, then he is actively deciding against the interests of Canada, both for what we

00:41:04.960 stand for in the world in terms of international peace and in the bilateral relationship with

00:41:09.920 America, which we need to resolve for working Canadians as soon as possible.

00:41:13.760 I know there's an awful lot of Canadians that just want to do the opposite of whatever Donald Trump does or

00:41:18.260 says, but that is not necessarily in our best economic interest.

00:41:22.280 And yet, Mark Carney seems to be leaning into that.

00:41:25.100 And as I said in a column the other day, this is either deliberate or it's incompetent.

00:41:30.520 And I don't know which is the worst answer.

00:41:32.680 And you seem to be at a similar position on this.

00:41:36.200 You know, I'd like to think the prime minister is a knowledgeable man.

00:41:39.880 He's introduced himself to the public as well-traveled internationally, sophisticated in global conversations.

00:41:47.620 This is kind of his bailiwick, right?

00:41:49.580 Look, as someone who's covered him, I know him to be a smart man, a thoughtful man.

00:41:55.360 So let's assume that this is a bad decision.

00:41:59.480 It's a bad decision that profits him politically, domestically.

00:42:04.220 In his mind, I believe that this is something that he's doing.

00:42:08.140 Again, not speaking for all Canada.

00:42:10.120 There's been no parliamentary debate.

00:42:11.400 There's been no discussion.

00:42:13.180 He's gone against the decision of parliament from last year.

00:42:16.200 Parliament seems to be an institution.

00:42:17.280 He doesn't have a lot of time for.

00:42:19.580 And now he's acting for a very narrow extremist voice inside his own party, not the country.

00:42:26.640 All right.

00:42:27.240 Where do we go from here?

00:42:28.560 Does Canada recover?

00:42:30.540 I mean, in some ways, I guess we can be thankful that after 10 years of the Trudeau government,

00:42:35.680 our voice doesn't carry much weight on the international stage.

00:42:38.620 I know liberals might say, oh, no, that's due to the Harper decade.

00:42:41.140 But really, we have diminished in terms of the strength of our voice on the international stage.

00:42:48.660 We used to be a country that mattered and that people would look to for moral clarity.

00:42:52.580 I don't think that we can be looked upon for that at this point.

00:42:58.200 Look, with the United States, the most important thing for us to establish is that we will go eyeball to eyeball with any American administration on the core interests of Canadians.

00:43:07.820 Our safety, our security, our prosperity, our values will go eyeball to eyeball with them on the interests of Canadians and also stand shoulder to shoulder with them on the rivals we have to confront in a world that's deeply disrupted.

00:43:20.400 This is a world that changes very quickly in every minute, and it requires a government that's switched on and understands what the strengths of our country are.

00:43:29.380 The core strengths of our country are our capacity to unleash resources, whether it's oil and gas to fuel growth and development and reduce pollution or critical minerals that will be behind every major technological change that's coming in the years ahead.

00:43:46.340 Unleashing these resources gives us an international stake.

00:43:49.520 And opens up prosperity domestically for our people here.

00:43:54.220 It's about our country having made the decision to have ambition to matter in the world in the way that represents the best of Canada and the best of our interests.

00:44:04.760 All right.

00:44:05.520 Shiv Lomijamda, thanks so much for the time today.

00:44:08.080 Thank you for yours.

00:44:09.260 This was a quickly put together episode of the Full Comment podcast.

00:44:13.500 And yes, while there were several different viewpoints put forward, there is a definite slant to this.

00:44:19.140 And that is not something that I will apologize for.

00:44:21.760 I, like most of my colleagues at Post Media, have a particular view when it comes to Israel, when it comes to a two-state solution.

00:44:28.440 And we're not going to turn around and say that suddenly we have to put forward both sides and a false equivalency.

00:44:35.520 That is not something that's going to happen.

00:44:37.680 So, I welcome your comments.

00:44:39.460 Some will be supportive.

00:44:40.460 Some will be in opposition.

00:44:42.320 But the point here was to put forward points of view that you wouldn't hear in most media.

00:44:47.020 And I hope we accomplish that goal.

00:44:48.980 Full Comment is a post-media podcast.

00:44:51.100 My name is Brian Lilly, your host.

00:44:52.880 This episode was produced by Andre Pru.

00:44:54.880 Theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:44:56.500 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:44:58.200 Remember, you can hit subscribe, and please do, wherever you're listening to your podcast.

00:45:03.080 Leave us a review.

00:45:04.280 Send this by email to your friends.

00:45:06.360 Let people know about us.

00:45:07.640 Thanks for listening.

00:45:08.460 Until next time, I'm Brian Lilly.

00:45:10.100 Here's that clip from Canada Did What?

00:45:18.860 I promised you.

00:45:21.980 In the late 1960s, you have members of the Montreal Police who can spend their entire shift rushing

00:45:28.560 from one FLQ bombing to another.

00:45:31.880 Here's how New Year's Eve 1968 played out for Robert Cote, a member of the Montreal Police

00:45:37.700 Bomb Squad, which put him at the forefront of fighting the FLQ during this period.

00:45:43.300 He was supposed to be at home with his wife, who had just miscarried twin daughters.

00:45:47.840 But instead, at 11pm, he's called out to Montreal City Hall to investigate a bomb that had just gone off.

00:45:54.520 He's en route with sirens blaring when he's told,

00:45:57.380 Actually, don't bother with the exploded bomb.

00:45:59.980 There's an unexploded bomb on the other side of City Hall you have to defuse.

00:46:04.000 And then, right after snipping the wires on the City Hall bomb,

00:46:09.140 Cote has to speed west where a third bomb has just exploded outside a federal building.

00:46:15.460 The bombing started in April and May of 1963.

00:46:20.700 That's when the first bombings took place.

00:46:22.360 And the mailbox bombings were the most famous part of the whole thing,

00:46:27.080 which was basically on the Thursday night and Friday night,

00:46:30.740 kneading into the Victoria Day weekend in 1963.

00:46:35.240 So, and initially, they started attacking these symbols of federalism,

00:46:40.360 federal institutions, whether it was a Montreal Post Office or a Revenue Canada.

00:46:44.420 But the bombings escalated as time went on in terms of the size of the bombs and the powerfulness of these bombs.

00:46:54.780 If you want to hear the rest of the story, make sure you subscribe to Canada Did What?

00:47:00.100 Everywhere you get your podcasts.

Full Comment - August 04, 2025

Mark Carney falls right into a Hamas trap

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