Obliterating Hamas in Gaza is Israel’s only option now
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Summary
The terror attacks launched by Hamas just over a week ago were shocking, horrific, barbarous. Today, we take a step back and get the 30,000 feet view with Daniel Pipes, author, commentator and President of the Middle East Forum.
Transcript
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the terror attacks launched by hamas just over a week ago were shocking horrific barbarous words
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can't even really begin to describe what we all saw thanks to hamas themselves posting photos
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and videos of their atrocities pretty much in real time it was the darkest side of humanity
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on full display since then a lot of commentary on what hamas did how israel responded and
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what comes next today we take a step back and get the 30 000 feet view with daniel pipes author
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commentator and president of the middle east forum hello and welcome to the full comment podcast i'm
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brian lily your host and in the conversation you're about to hear we talk about what has happened over
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the last week or so the history behind this seemingly never-ending struggle why daniel pipes
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thinks now is the time to rid gaza of the stranglehold that hamas has placed on it and what
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if anything america can do about bringing peace to the middle east as almost every president has tried
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to do for the last 50 years other than joe biden daniel pipes thanks for the time thank you for
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inviting me the terror attacks that hamas launched just over a week ago now definitely caught the
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israeli government by surprise they caught the whole world by surprise it seems now this is a
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an issue you've studied a group you've studied for a long time how shocked were you by what you saw in
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terms of the the scale the scope the breadth of the attacks and and of course the utter barbarism of it
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i was shocked along with everyone else i'd studied hamas i knew its ideology i knew its goals i knew
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its methods but i never imagined anything quite so audacious barbarous and successful i thought the
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israeli military knew what it was doing that it had defenses in place to protect against this sort of
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thing indeed it appears that hamas itself and its backers in iran were shocked nobody expected
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something of this magnitude the success from hamas point of view well from yes from their point of
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view it was successful from an israeli point of view from a humanity point of view it was utter
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devastating utterly devastating and the the images coming out uh is part of what shocked me and maybe
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this is a tactic i haven't seen before or maybe because hamas has never done anything on this scale
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before you know i'm used to seeing them celebrate um uh killing of israeli soldiers or or or such but
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we knew what was happening and how awful this attack was because hamas was posting photos and videos
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almost in real time right of what was happening and i think it it shocked the world and and also
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had people sit up and say this this goes well beyond anything we would expect did is that a new tactic
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for them promoting their own barbarism because there was there was no way you could say well these claims
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aren't true or that you could say well this is israeli propaganda this was hamas telling the world
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this is what we've done this is who we are uh no that's not something new it's not something new for
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hamas i believe the first islamist group to use this kind of um video self-videoing was hezbollah
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in lebanon uh some 20 30 years ago uh isis did a lot of it it's common this is a jihadi tactic
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to intimidate your enemy to show your power to uh do this on behalf of islam uh the the good news is
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that there are large numbers of muslims who are repulsed by this and uh it's created a response
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both positive towards the barbarism but also negative i think i i am of inclination i've been
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arguing for a decade now that islamism the idea of bringing medieval islamic laws and imposing them
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on muslims today and non-muslims too is in decline for the past 10 years and i think events like this
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while superficially they look to strengthen the islamist cause i think in the long term
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harm it significantly many muslims are repulsed by it you know as i've been watching over the last week
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and in hearing the calls including calls for muslims around the world to take up their own jihad
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it struck me that we we haven't seen that the way we did a decade ago the way we did well less than
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a decade ago but you know when isis was on the rampage um and after isis was defeated that seemed
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to go back to the fringes and this is pulling it back into the forefront but you don't think that
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there's strong support for that why would you say that i think several trends have reduced the
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appeal of islamism one is this the barbarism against israelis against fellow muslims against
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all you name it everyone anyone who's not a fellow islamist and indeed a fellow islamist of the same
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disposition in afghanistan taliban and al-qaeda are each other's throats so one is the sheer viciousness
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another is the experience that many muslims have had living under islamist rule whether it be in
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iran or gaza or elsewhere they don't like it they hate it and indeed they have moved away from islam
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basically they've said if what this authority has promoted is islam i don't want any part of it and you
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see significant numbers of muslims pull away even in turkey which doesn't have a government nearly so
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radical and violent as the iranian or the gaza one uh you see a great disaffection from from islamism
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from the kind of islam that the government is purveying so when you listen to hamas
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they make this a very religious thing they they believe that they are doing what their faith tells
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them yes and you can see the interviews with people in gaza you can see what the kids that go to the
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unrest schools the united nations work in relief agency schools where hardcore islamist beliefs are
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taught they will repeat that this is a a holy war against israel the holy war against the infidels
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sure so you know is there is there polling is there um data points that that you can point to
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that that show that this is uh not something that uh most muslims or at least in this part most muslims
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in in gaza or the west bank are going to support because hamas has been in power for a long time
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hamas has been in power since 2007 so 16 years and yes there is polling and what's particularly
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interesting is that historically that is say until 2007 gaza the population of gaza was more radical
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more anti-zionist than the west bank and since then while the west bank hasn't exactly been
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a hotbed of liberal thinking and progressive ideas it has been a fairly normal place compared to gaza gaza
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has gone through the population of gaza i would argue to you has gone through an experience the past 16
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years which is unprecedented in human history and what i mean by that is that its ruling authority called
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the government has used the population as cannon fodder but not the usual kind of cannon fodder
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not to win not like say what uh uh progosian did in in ukraine which is to win a battle
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this has been cannon fodder for public relations purposes the hamas has has sent off rockets or
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whatever they might do kites with incendiary devices and tunnels and so forth in order to provoke the
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israelis to smash gaza to bring in the aircraft to destroy buildings to break the electricity and
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water grids and the like and then hamas says look look at the victims we are and it works they have found
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islamist support muslim sympathy and far left sympathy as well and so the people of gaza have been used
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exploited for public relations purposes their lives have been disrupted death destruction poverty oppression
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have been their lot and polling shows that gazans are many gazans are weary of this and want out
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don't want to be used again and again for pr purposes to make the case for hamas and i think that's a very
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positive development they want out and i think what that means just give me one more minute is it that if
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israel does take out hamas and implicitly that means conquer reconquer gaza i think the israelis
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have a chance to have a chance to find gazans who are willing to work with them not people pro israel
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not people who are democrats but people who are sick of this unique a miserable experience of the past 16
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years and so i'm optimistic that out of this tragedy can come something good if it's done correctly well
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i i want to ask you about israel going into rid gaza of hamas in a moment but you mentioned about the
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way things have changed um my understanding is that prior to hamas having been in power for a long time
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the quality of life the standard of living in gaza was actually fairly high yep and now it you know
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it's described by many as an open-air prison that's the uh the inflammatory terms that that are used to
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try and say that uh uh you know israel the apartheid state the so-called apartheid state is oppressing them
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but you know it's the oppression of hamas that has really deteriorated the quality of life i would
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argue how has it changed in the last 16 17 years well to give a bit of background um gaza was part
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of the palestine mandate under the british uh when the arab states attacked the nascent state of israel
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1948-49 the egyptians took gaza and it was under egyptian control from 1948 until the israelis
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took it in 1967 at that time in 1967 it was neglected the egyptians had no interest in it
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it was recently described as an open-air prison people couldn't leave there were very few
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opportunities the israelis brought with them uh economic boom in the 1970s uh gaza and the west
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bank as well were economic miracles there was the most these were the territories that had the highest
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uh rate of growth in the world ahead of taiwan and south korea singapore and even ahead of israel itself
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washing machines electricity water schools a university all these came to be this continued
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for 20 years from 67 until 87 in 87 hamas came into existence a sub project of the muslim brotherhood of
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egypt islamist seeking jihad and uh hamas made life miserable for the israelis israelis living there
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in farms and the israelis who were patrolling until in 2005 the israelis said okay you win we leave
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and here we are um and then started attacking in 2008 uh and it is has no interest whatsoever in
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the welfare of its of its subject population look it undertook this massive massacre of israelis
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without making any preparation for the consequences there is nothing in place there's no supplies there's
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no bomb shelters or stockpiling nothing nothing no the point is to have the population be uh victimized
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that's what wins sympathy around the world that's the perverse point this is not a battle to win on
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hamas's part this is a battle to get sympathy and and indeed it's working they may have murdered how
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how many is it 1200 now israelis in cold blood but there are significant precincts for example universities
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uh uh that are sympathetic to hamas and saying good go on well done i saw the video that hamas themselves put
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out um you know they they were sent uh using aid dollars uh pipes for a water system
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they cut them up and made them into rockets yep called dual use yeah they're experts at that
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so have they been siphoning off aid from uh you know countries like canada the united states that
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send over what we believe is humanitarian aid or money or supplies have they been siphoning that off
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for years to build their terror network even bigger i think after explaining what i have so far you won't
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be surprised i'll say yes yeah they're interested in making war on israel damn the consequences
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let the population of gaza be its public relations ticket this is the way to find support
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it's it's perverse and as i say i don't think there's ever been however how many however many horrible
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regimes have been i don't think anyone has ever used the population in this way they use their population
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to build a military power not to be victimized so you you say you're hopeful that israel can go in and
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doing the opposite in terms of the views of the population just hardening those views or
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further uh radicalizing people if if it is as brutal as benjamin netanyahu and others have
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described if if they have to go in and do you know flatten buildings and and go door-to-door taking
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out people will that not bring just a new generation of supporters for this radical view
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what you're pointing to is a dilemma that it all faces you you mentioned about flattening buildings
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and going to door-to-door but those are actually very different techniques flattening buildings means
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you don't put your own soldiers your israeli soldiers at risk you flatten buildings you bomb
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them from the air however going to door-to-door means you're putting your soldiers at risk booby traps
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uh snipers and the like the more meticulous and cautious israelis are the more they expose their own
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soldiers to danger so you're right if they are absolutely brutal and flatten the place they will
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create a great deal of anger and resentment if they go door-to-door and are very careful and
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go after targeted individuals they're going to take serious casualties so i expect there will be a
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i hope there will be a medium between the two uh that preserves israeli soldiers lives while not
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being indiscriminate uh definitely the israeli anger and statements would suggest they're going to go in
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really hard we'll see we'll see what they do we'll see what their goals are they haven't really they've
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said they want to destroy hamas but they haven't they haven't told us how that's going to happen
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well i imagine it would be a a combination of flattening buildings from the sky and then
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going door-to-door with the remaining ones i suspect you're right they've called up 300 000 reservists
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that's a lot of uh i have an american analogy gaza is precisely the same size as omaha nebraska 136
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uh square miles i don't know what that would be in kilometers not very big uh 300 000 soldiers is a
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very large number i don't know don't know what they have in mind so let's say they are successful um
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um to if they find someone they can work with is there not the risk that that person or that group
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of people become just viewed as a um a puppet government you know a puppet of the state of
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israel and not with any real authority let me give you a grand example analogy 1945 the allies
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not only defeated germany and japan but destroyed their infrastructure and fought their ideologies
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let's focus on germany the allies found konrad aidenhower an anti-nazi german and they sponsored
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him and his government and it worked uh germany is a decent country since 1945 aidenhower was not
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rejected as a puppet of the allies he was accepted as a legitimate leader and it worked so if it can
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happen in germany with the nazis with the vast power of germany world threatening power you don't think
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it can happen in gaza which has no air force no economy population of about one and one one-third million
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i think it can does the palestinian authority play a role in this at all are they still an option or
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have they just been completely sidelined in gaza because of the last 16 years some people see it as
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a solution for example uh brett stevens of the new york times proposed a few days ago that the israelis go
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in and put the palestinian authority back in charge as it was until 2007 i think that is a very bad idea
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in part because the palestinian authority is weak in part because it is just about as radical
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as hamas it just mixes a blend of violence and legitimate activity but i i trust it no more than i
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trust hamas if it had the power it would engage in the similar kind of uh offensives as hamas has no
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i i see it as as useless as negative and do not want to see it have any role in gaza and nor for that
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matter in the west bank i think it is a very negative presence there not as bad as hamas granted but
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but very bad all right we need to take a quick break when we come back i do want to ask you about
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the ongoing potential for this to grow wider uh what all of this means for the abraham accords and
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what what we're seeing i know in cities around the world people coming out in support of this that's
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absolutely mind-boggling more with daniel pipes when we come back
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last week one of the uh the big concerns was this war spreading and between when we're recording
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now on thursday afternoon and and when this is published things could change but there was a false
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alarm at one point that an invasion had been launched from uh southern lebanon into northern israel
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uh daniel this obviously has to be a concern for israel for its supporters and allies um do you see
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iran in the background trying to egg on hezbollah for example do you see other countries in the region
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deciding that they're going to get involved how does this this potential for an expansion
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of the war that israel has with hamas um what's the potential for that blowing up wider the potential
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is very much there for hezbollah in lebanon to attack israel is hezbollah has a far larger arsenal
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a more deadly arsenal it can do a great damage to israel uh hezbollah is autonomous as far as we know
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it is not under the thumb of the mullahs in tehran they can't simply say go
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uh the leader hasana sorla and others make their own decisions i'm inclined to think they will not
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join in could well be wrong but i think they're inclined not to i think the ferocity of the israeli
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response uh will be a disincentive to join in for that matter uh where as you said we're on thursday
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afternoon there's been a call for israeli muslims to rise up against their co-nationals the jews
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of israel i'm inclined to think that won't happen we'll know we'll know by the time this is posted
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i think again they're aware of the anger and i don't think they want to provoke it
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uh the um the iranian foreign minister was headed to um i think it was his plane was headed towards
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damascus and the uh the israeli air force um i don't know exactly what they did they you know
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fired some rockets uh towards that direction and suddenly it was turning around and and heading
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back to uh to tehran iran obviously wants to get involved they i mean they they funded hamas how much
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they were involved directly in this is is a point of debate i understand but they obviously want to be a
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part of this they see this as a a chance to weaken um the little satan that um you know that they view
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israel as whereas america of course being the big satan um do you think iran does make that mistake
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of getting involved well from all i know the iranians have funded hamas the usual number
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mentioned is 70 million u.s dollars a year uh to to which i reply yes but qatar funded
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with israeli encouragement permission and encouragement funded hamas the tune of
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something like 360 million u.s dollars so what this points to is the fact that the israeli security
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establishment was under the impression that if hamas has money and people get salaries things will be
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quiet and there will not be so much attack uh that clearly was wrong finally that's been dispelled
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the iranians i was going to ask why would israel encourage qatar to to fund them but that that was the
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thinking was essentially if people have jobs they won't bother us right that historically has been
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early the zionist and then the israeli approach look palestinians we will bring you jobs we will
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bring you clean water electricity you're better off with us calm down don't fight us unfortunately for
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israel it has never worked in 140 years but it is a continuous approach until
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a few days ago maybe it will be abandoned now but getting back to iran uh the iranians are intent on
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fighting israel uh preferably using proxies lebanese yemeni palestinian and whoever else they can find
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there's an article i saw that mentioned afghans they want to recruit uh they're leery of fighting israel
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directly because uh that could be a lot of pain but they're quite ready to fight israel to the last
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palestinian much the same way uh uh iran is willing to fight saudi arabia in yemen in a proxy they they
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don't seem to want direct conflicts they they want to go you know do it in a roundabout way
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what does all of this um we saw some of the um the responses from israel's arab neighbors
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saudi arabia even saying um at one point that you know that the attacks were due to the actions
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and negligence of israel does this change the abraham accords which appeared to be setting
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these at one time enemies on a better footing let me provide a bit of background before getting
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into the accords the arab states well the palestinians were the enemies of israel until 1948
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on a local basis and then in 1948 the arab states got involved egypt jordan syria
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iraq iraq saudi arabia even lebanon but primarily egypt jordan and syria they lost they lost again and
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again and again by 1973 they'd had it they didn't want to make war so for 25 years from 48 to 73
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it was the arab states were the main opponents of israel it was army against army air force against
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air force navy against navy but then in 1973 the arab states quit this is somehow not noticed with two
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exceptions in 1982 and 1991 the arab states have not in the past 50 years 50 years to the day
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practically given that the last war was in october 1973 the arab states have withdrawn they talk they
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might engage in economic boycotts but they don't engage in military battles and as time has gone on
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uh more and more states have said we've had enough first it was egypt with the peace treaty of 1979
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then it was jordan peace treaty of 1994 then in 2020 there were four states uae bahrain morocco sudan
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now there's the possibility of saudi arabia so the trend is clear now in within this trend
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there are various obstacles uh primarily the palestinian case but in general the governments
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are fed up with the palestinians however in the 50s and 60s when the when the conflict was live in the
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countries the governments mobilized their populations and distracted their populations by talking about
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israel israel israel and the legacy of that period long ago as it is still there and populations are
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agitated about israel in the way the governments are not and so governments have to be a bit cautious
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they want to end this conflict with israel but they have populations that sometimes can get very
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agitated and they certainly got agitated you know with events like the massacre on october 7th
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so uh yes i think it's going to slow things down it might even derail them to some extent but the larger picture
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i think remains the same that the arab states want to end this conflict and now there's the additional
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point that the arab states particularly the gulf persian gulf states are afraid of iran and
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the united states is no longer there as it used to be particularly with the iran deal sending money and
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what not to iran and so who are they to look to uh russia china uh they look to the neighborhood strongman
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which is israel so they have an added incentive and however much the populations are agitated by
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what's going on i think the the rulers of these countries and none of them are democrats will continue
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to close down the conflict with israel i mean at one point it looked as if some of the the arab states
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or the persian gulf states would actually lean on hamas lean on the palestinian authority to say you
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know what it's time to stop guys it's it's time to move on um obviously that was not successful
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do you think they play a role in getting the palestinian people to say you know what you've
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you've had hamas as your rulers for a long time it's time to reject that uh and i and i ask in this
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way because you know i know they can be uh brutish thugs but a population can't get rid of brutish
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thugs it's just that oftentimes people are either explicitly or implicitly allowing the thugs to
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operate um do do the other arab states and have a role in in getting the palestinian people to say
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enough already well their focus has been on the west bank and the palestine authority that rules the
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west bank and uh until this massacre the focus was on saudi efforts to pay off
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to provide money and perhaps some other benefits to the pa the palestine authority and a return get
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it to sign off on the saudis having perhaps formal diplomatic relations with israel that clearly has been
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sidelined for the moment but they have not been making that effort with with hamas it just didn't
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have that kind of clout um and uh no i don't think in to answer your basic question can they get the
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palestinians to give up the fight with israel no i don't think they can they don't have that kind of
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authority the only ones who can do that are the israelis we we've talked about the religious aspect of
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of of this and and obviously for some in hamas that is a driving force what about
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the great satan little satan idea is some of this driven by a hatred of america and israel is just a
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it's complicated i did an article some decades ago looking at at conspiracy theories in the middle east
00:31:50.860
and showed how there's a persistent contradiction between the conspiracies say that the united
00:32:00.780
states runs everything and israel is its unsinkable
00:32:05.500
aircraft carrier the israelis have no autonomy in fact uh just within days ago uh the head of the pa
00:32:14.060
mahmud abbas said that israel is nothing but a colony of the united states
00:32:18.860
and then there's the other uh version which is uh the jews run the united states congress is dominated
00:32:26.700
jewish money jewish media uh presidency is in hawk to israel and everything the united states does is
00:32:35.180
run by from jerusalem you would think uh they'd settle on one or the other but in fact both are current
00:32:42.380
and there is a underlying uh consistency uh despite the contradiction which is that things are not as
00:32:51.180
they seem to be things are deep and dark and terrible and there are conspiracies taking place
00:32:57.020
uh they just can't figure out exactly which way the conspiracy goes the the second conspiracy that
00:33:04.780
you mentioned about israel controlling the united states that sounds like something i would experience
00:33:09.820
on a a campus a university campus college campus be it in your country or mine and we've seen
00:33:19.660
not just on campuses but an awful lot of support expressed a giant rally in dearborn michigan we had a
00:33:26.620
pretty big rally here in in toronto sydney opera house in australia around the world people came out
00:33:33.180
and said you know despite the images they saw they said that they supported this and
00:33:41.180
what is bizarre is that it is often wrapped up in
00:33:44.300
decolonization decolonization language and the language of of of the progressive faculty club
00:33:53.900
that that this is somehow justified because uh we need to decolonize israel uh we need to decolonize
00:34:02.940
palestinian lands um is this just a trap that mental trap that people have worked themselves into over the
00:34:11.740
years that they're unable to see that you know perhaps things have changed and in the sands have
00:34:18.060
shifted and you're on the wrong side here let me give a bit of history uh through most of the 20th
00:34:25.740
century the left whether it be moderate liberals or communists was sympathetic to zionism and
00:34:35.500
is israel i'm old enough to remember that well probably not old enough to remember the fact that
00:34:41.100
stalin was critical to the emergence of israel in 1947 48 he saw israel as a vehicle the socialists of
00:34:51.980
israel the leftists of israel indeed the communists of israel as a vehicle against the british empire
00:34:58.060
now the the soviets dropped israel by 1955 but even later when things you remember i remember
00:35:06.700
um say 1967 war between israel and three arab states uh the left was on israel's side uh this
00:35:16.700
changed as a as a result of of a whole host of factors perhaps most important is soviet anti-zionism
00:35:25.020
the soviet union became the ally of the arabs and began to portray israel as a colonial state as a tool
00:35:32.700
of the imperialists and the like also the variety of developments in the 1990s i won't go through them
00:35:40.700
all but perhaps the most important was the election of nelson mandela in 1994 which freed up the apartheid
00:35:51.340
label and the left looked around and said what's the apartheid state jimmy carter wrote a book called
00:35:57.580
israel the apartheid state and increasingly uh the durban conference of 2001 increasingly the left became
00:36:07.180
anti-israel and the further out you go on the left the more anti-israel in general the older liberals such
00:36:15.980
as joe biden still have a warm feeling towards israel and the younger liberals are more hostile when you get
00:36:23.980
to the university you find enormous hostility that verges on anti-semitism so israel has a major problem
00:36:31.740
with the left conversely the right which was back in the day cooled israel perhaps the american president
00:36:40.860
who was most hostile not perhaps the american president who was most hostile to israel was dwight eisenhower
00:36:47.180
not because he was hostile to the state as such but he saw it as a
00:36:51.260
impediment to forming anti-soviet alliances uh gerald ford was probably the second most
00:36:58.140
both republicans um and so republicans were cool in the mid-1980s the switch came the republicans
00:37:06.300
became whether conservatives in general not just the united states but around the world whether it be
00:37:10.460
japan or brazil or india canada uh became warmer towards israel and the liberals became cooler
00:37:18.140
and that's the trend we're on now for 30 years i don't see an end in sight
00:37:26.940
so you don't see that that changing over the next little while i don't
00:37:30.700
in terms of american presidents we've watched as president after president has made israel and peace with
00:37:39.980
the palestinians a major major uh effort you know it they've tried to make it almost as a
00:37:48.860
an end cap on their career be it george hw bush clinton obama
00:37:54.700
uh even donald trump to a degree got involved in we got the abraham accords biden has not really
00:38:06.060
engaged in the same way do you have a sense why and and is an american presence required i mean it
00:38:12.940
hasn't helped so far uh so is it required to actually ever get to an ending piece glad you picked
00:38:19.340
up on that because very very few people have just one correction uh trump's palestinian uh effort went
00:38:25.980
nowhere but it was a big plan introduced with great hoopla and then when that failed he turned to the
00:38:31.260
abraham accords with the states you're right biden is the first president i think since gerald ford
00:38:37.500
in the mid 1970s that's say almost 50 years ago who's not had his palestinian peace plan it's remarkable
00:38:43.820
and i keep wondering how this can be um for example george w bush was criticized for not having planned
00:38:52.300
i think he came up i forget the number with 14 of them in the course of his eight years
00:38:56.780
and like every few months and yet he was criticized for not trying hard enough and here biden has simply
00:39:02.860
said you know or he hasn't said anything he's just taken a pass on it and no one criticizes him
00:39:08.780
and no one expects him to and it absolutely befuddles me i don't know how this came to be
00:39:13.820
i guess the only explanation i can offer is that they wised up and thought well this isn't getting
00:39:19.180
anywhere nobody gets uh nobel prizes for this anymore uh let's just try other things and
00:39:25.340
furthermore you know china russia they're you know peer problems now that have to be dealt with so let's
00:39:31.500
focus on those but i am very very surprised but but is america's participation is is that required to
00:39:39.260
get to a peace do you think or is it ultimately going to come down to the people on the ground
00:39:45.660
let me rephrase your question are american bad ideas necessary to get to an agreement no they're not
00:39:52.300
uh united states government has come up with one bad idea after another no it's not necessary in fact it's
00:39:58.220
an impediment all right daniel thank you very much for your time today thanks for the invitation again
00:40:03.740
this has been the full comment podcast a post media production this episode was produced by andre
00:40:09.900
prue with theme music by bryce hall kevin libin is the executive producer remember you can subscribe
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