Full Comment - Obliterating Hamas in Gaza is Israel’s only option now

00:00:00.000 the terror attacks launched by hamas just over a week ago were shocking horrific barbarous words

00:00:12.200 can't even really begin to describe what we all saw thanks to hamas themselves posting photos

00:00:17.740 and videos of their atrocities pretty much in real time it was the darkest side of humanity

00:00:22.820 on full display since then a lot of commentary on what hamas did how israel responded and

00:00:29.240 what comes next today we take a step back and get the 30 000 feet view with daniel pipes author

00:00:35.860 commentator and president of the middle east forum hello and welcome to the full comment podcast i'm

00:00:41.660 brian lily your host and in the conversation you're about to hear we talk about what has happened over

00:00:47.600 the last week or so the history behind this seemingly never-ending struggle why daniel pipes

00:00:53.500 thinks now is the time to rid gaza of the stranglehold that hamas has placed on it and what 0.95

00:00:59.280 if anything america can do about bringing peace to the middle east as almost every president has tried

00:01:05.260 to do for the last 50 years other than joe biden daniel pipes thanks for the time thank you for

00:01:11.920 inviting me the terror attacks that hamas launched just over a week ago now definitely caught the 0.71

00:01:18.980 israeli government by surprise they caught the whole world by surprise it seems now this is a

00:01:25.720 an issue you've studied a group you've studied for a long time how shocked were you by what you saw in

00:01:32.460 terms of the the scale the scope the breadth of the attacks and and of course the utter barbarism of it

00:01:38.800 i was shocked along with everyone else i'd studied hamas i knew its ideology i knew its goals i knew

00:01:45.300 its methods but i never imagined anything quite so audacious barbarous and successful i thought the

00:01:53.040 israeli military knew what it was doing that it had defenses in place to protect against this sort of

00:01:58.920 thing indeed it appears that hamas itself and its backers in iran were shocked nobody expected

00:02:04.860 something of this magnitude the success from hamas point of view well from yes from their point of

00:02:12.200 view it was successful from an israeli point of view from a humanity point of view it was utter

00:02:18.540 devastating utterly devastating and the the images coming out uh is part of what shocked me and maybe

00:02:26.600 this is a tactic i haven't seen before or maybe because hamas has never done anything on this scale

00:02:33.220 before you know i'm used to seeing them celebrate um uh killing of israeli soldiers or or or such but

00:02:42.320 we knew what was happening and how awful this attack was because hamas was posting photos and videos

00:02:51.040 almost in real time right of what was happening and i think it it shocked the world and and also

00:02:58.980 had people sit up and say this this goes well beyond anything we would expect did is that a new tactic

00:03:05.880 for them promoting their own barbarism because there was there was no way you could say well these claims

00:03:13.200 aren't true or that you could say well this is israeli propaganda this was hamas telling the world

00:03:19.440 this is what we've done this is who we are uh no that's not something new it's not something new for

00:03:26.900 hamas i believe the first islamist group to use this kind of um video self-videoing was hezbollah

00:03:35.320 in lebanon uh some 20 30 years ago uh isis did a lot of it it's common this is a jihadi tactic

00:03:43.500 to intimidate your enemy to show your power to uh do this on behalf of islam uh the the good news is 0.93

00:03:52.660 that there are large numbers of muslims who are repulsed by this and uh it's created a response

00:04:01.020 both positive towards the barbarism but also negative i think i i am of inclination i've been

00:04:08.440 arguing for a decade now that islamism the idea of bringing medieval islamic laws and imposing them 0.99

00:04:14.700 on muslims today and non-muslims too is in decline for the past 10 years and i think events like this

00:04:23.020 while superficially they look to strengthen the islamist cause i think in the long term

00:04:29.760 harm it significantly many muslims are repulsed by it you know as i've been watching over the last week

00:04:37.100 and in hearing the calls including calls for muslims around the world to take up their own jihad

00:04:43.240 it struck me that we we haven't seen that the way we did a decade ago the way we did well less than

00:04:51.600 a decade ago but you know when isis was on the rampage um and after isis was defeated that seemed

00:04:59.340 to go back to the fringes and this is pulling it back into the forefront but you don't think that

00:05:06.280 there's strong support for that why would you say that i think several trends have reduced the

00:05:16.200 appeal of islamism one is this the barbarism against israelis against fellow muslims against 1.00

00:05:21.880 all you name it everyone anyone who's not a fellow islamist and indeed a fellow islamist of the same

00:05:27.900 disposition in afghanistan taliban and al-qaeda are each other's throats so one is the sheer viciousness 0.54

00:05:35.620 another is the experience that many muslims have had living under islamist rule whether it be in

00:05:42.080 iran or gaza or elsewhere they don't like it they hate it and indeed they have moved away from islam 0.99

00:05:49.360 basically they've said if what this authority has promoted is islam i don't want any part of it and you 0.99

00:05:56.060 see significant numbers of muslims pull away even in turkey which doesn't have a government nearly so 0.99

00:06:02.400 radical and violent as the iranian or the gaza one uh you see a great disaffection from from islamism

00:06:11.680 from the kind of islam that the government is purveying so when you listen to hamas 1.00

00:06:18.720 they make this a very religious thing they they believe that they are doing what their faith tells

00:06:26.960 them yes and you can see the interviews with people in gaza you can see what the kids that go to the

00:06:34.440 unrest schools the united nations work in relief agency schools where hardcore islamist beliefs are

00:06:44.300 taught they will repeat that this is a a holy war against israel the holy war against the infidels 1.00

00:06:51.800 sure so you know is there is there polling is there um data points that that you can point to

00:07:01.820 that that show that this is uh not something that uh most muslims or at least in this part most muslims

00:07:09.620 in in gaza or the west bank are going to support because hamas has been in power for a long time

00:07:15.000 hamas has been in power since 2007 so 16 years and yes there is polling and what's particularly

00:07:24.260 interesting is that historically that is say until 2007 gaza the population of gaza was more radical

00:07:34.380 more anti-zionist than the west bank and since then while the west bank hasn't exactly been

00:07:42.740 a hotbed of liberal thinking and progressive ideas it has been a fairly normal place compared to gaza gaza

00:07:52.820 has gone through the population of gaza i would argue to you has gone through an experience the past 16

00:07:58.780 years which is unprecedented in human history and what i mean by that is that its ruling authority called

00:08:06.380 the government has used the population as cannon fodder but not the usual kind of cannon fodder

00:08:13.420 not to win not like say what uh uh progosian did in in ukraine which is to win a battle

00:08:20.460 this has been cannon fodder for public relations purposes the hamas has has sent off rockets or

00:08:28.860 whatever they might do kites with incendiary devices and tunnels and so forth in order to provoke the

00:08:37.180 israelis to smash gaza to bring in the aircraft to destroy buildings to break the electricity and

00:08:45.980 water grids and the like and then hamas says look look at the victims we are and it works they have found

00:08:53.180 islamist support muslim sympathy and far left sympathy as well and so the people of gaza have been used

00:09:01.180 exploited for public relations purposes their lives have been disrupted death destruction poverty oppression

00:09:08.540 have been their lot and polling shows that gazans are many gazans are weary of this and want out

00:09:19.820 don't want to be used again and again for pr purposes to make the case for hamas and i think that's a very

00:09:29.980 positive development they want out and i think what that means just give me one more minute is it that if

00:09:38.140 israel does take out hamas and implicitly that means conquer reconquer gaza i think the israelis

00:09:48.220 have a chance to have a chance to find gazans who are willing to work with them not people pro israel

00:09:54.620 not people who are democrats but people who are sick of this unique a miserable experience of the past 16

00:10:02.780 years and so i'm optimistic that out of this tragedy can come something good if it's done correctly well

00:10:09.980 i i want to ask you about israel going into rid gaza of hamas in a moment but you mentioned about the

00:10:18.540 way things have changed um my understanding is that prior to hamas having been in power for a long time

00:10:28.860 the quality of life the standard of living in gaza was actually fairly high yep and now it you know

00:10:36.700 it's described by many as an open-air prison that's the uh the inflammatory terms that that are used to

00:10:44.860 try and say that uh uh you know israel the apartheid state the so-called apartheid state is oppressing them

00:10:51.980 but you know it's the oppression of hamas that has really deteriorated the quality of life i would

00:10:58.620 argue how has it changed in the last 16 17 years well to give a bit of background um gaza was part

00:11:07.740 of the palestine mandate under the british uh when the arab states attacked the nascent state of israel

00:11:14.140 1948-49 the egyptians took gaza and it was under egyptian control from 1948 until the israelis

00:11:24.860 took it in 1967 at that time in 1967 it was neglected the egyptians had no interest in it

00:11:31.820 it was recently described as an open-air prison people couldn't leave there were very few

00:11:36.700 opportunities the israelis brought with them uh economic boom in the 1970s uh gaza and the west

00:11:45.820 bank as well were economic miracles there was the most these were the territories that had the highest

00:11:52.700 uh rate of growth in the world ahead of taiwan and south korea singapore and even ahead of israel itself

00:12:02.060 washing machines electricity water schools a university all these came to be this continued

00:12:09.180 for 20 years from 67 until 87 in 87 hamas came into existence a sub project of the muslim brotherhood of

00:12:20.060 egypt islamist seeking jihad and uh hamas made life miserable for the israelis israelis living there 0.97

00:12:30.940 in farms and the israelis who were patrolling until in 2005 the israelis said okay you win we leave

00:12:38.940 and two years later hamas took over

00:12:41.180 and here we are um and then started attacking in 2008 uh and it is has no interest whatsoever in

00:12:52.300 the welfare of its of its subject population look it undertook this massive massacre of israelis 0.77

00:13:00.780 without making any preparation for the consequences there is nothing in place there's no supplies there's

00:13:07.500 no bomb shelters or stockpiling nothing nothing no the point is to have the population be uh victimized

00:13:15.820 that's what wins sympathy around the world that's the perverse point this is not a battle to win on

00:13:23.900 hamas's part this is a battle to get sympathy and and indeed it's working they may have murdered how

00:13:30.700 how many is it 1200 now israelis in cold blood but there are significant precincts for example universities

00:13:39.900 uh uh that are sympathetic to hamas and saying good go on well done i saw the video that hamas themselves put

00:13:49.420 out um you know they they were sent uh using aid dollars uh pipes for a water system

00:14:01.420 they cut them up and made them into rockets yep called dual use yeah they're experts at that

00:14:09.020 so have they been siphoning off aid from uh you know countries like canada the united states that

00:14:16.300 send over what we believe is humanitarian aid or money or supplies have they been siphoning that off

00:14:22.540 for years to build their terror network even bigger i think after explaining what i have so far you won't 0.94

00:14:29.260 be surprised i'll say yes yeah they're interested in making war on israel damn the consequences 0.71

00:14:37.820 let the population of gaza be its public relations ticket this is the way to find support 0.69

00:14:45.500 it's it's perverse and as i say i don't think there's ever been however how many however many horrible

00:14:52.300 regimes have been i don't think anyone has ever used the population in this way they use their population

00:14:58.460 to build a military power not to be victimized so you you say you're hopeful that israel can go in and

00:15:09.340 rid gaza of hamas but don't they risk

00:15:14.220 doing the opposite in terms of the views of the population just hardening those views or

00:15:20.460 further uh radicalizing people if if it is as brutal as benjamin netanyahu and others have

00:15:28.780 described if if they have to go in and do you know flatten buildings and and go door-to-door taking

00:15:36.300 out people will that not bring just a new generation of supporters for this radical view

00:15:44.460 what you're pointing to is a dilemma that it all faces you you mentioned about flattening buildings

00:15:48.700 and going to door-to-door but those are actually very different techniques flattening buildings means

00:15:54.860 you don't put your own soldiers your israeli soldiers at risk you flatten buildings you bomb 0.68

00:15:59.900 them from the air however going to door-to-door means you're putting your soldiers at risk booby traps

00:16:06.060 uh snipers and the like the more meticulous and cautious israelis are the more they expose their own

00:16:16.300 soldiers to danger so you're right if they are absolutely brutal and flatten the place they will

00:16:25.100 create a great deal of anger and resentment if they go door-to-door and are very careful and

00:16:32.700 go after targeted individuals they're going to take serious casualties so i expect there will be a

00:16:40.300 i hope there will be a medium between the two uh that preserves israeli soldiers lives while not

00:16:48.300 being indiscriminate uh definitely the israeli anger and statements would suggest they're going to go in

00:16:56.380 really hard we'll see we'll see what they do we'll see what their goals are they haven't really they've

00:17:01.420 said they want to destroy hamas but they haven't they haven't told us how that's going to happen

00:17:06.700 well i imagine it would be a a combination of flattening buildings from the sky and then

00:17:12.300 going door-to-door with the remaining ones i suspect you're right they've called up 300 000 reservists

00:17:19.500 that's a lot of uh i have an american analogy gaza is precisely the same size as omaha nebraska 136

00:17:30.380 uh square miles i don't know what that would be in kilometers not very big uh 300 000 soldiers is a

00:17:37.660 very large number i don't know don't know what they have in mind so let's say they are successful um

00:17:46.460 um to if they find someone they can work with is there not the risk that that person or that group

00:17:53.980 of people become just viewed as a um a puppet government you know a puppet of the state of

00:17:59.900 israel and not with any real authority let me give you a grand example analogy 1945 the allies

00:18:10.380 not only defeated germany and japan but destroyed their infrastructure and fought their ideologies

00:18:19.260 let's focus on germany the allies found konrad aidenhower an anti-nazi german and they sponsored

00:18:27.100 him and his government and it worked uh germany is a decent country since 1945 aidenhower was not

00:18:36.860 rejected as a puppet of the allies he was accepted as a legitimate leader and it worked so if it can

00:18:47.180 happen in germany with the nazis with the vast power of germany world threatening power you don't think

00:18:55.820 it can happen in gaza which has no air force no economy population of about one and one one-third million

00:19:03.580 i think it can does the palestinian authority play a role in this at all are they still an option or

00:19:12.860 have they just been completely sidelined in gaza because of the last 16 years some people see it as

00:19:20.380 a solution for example uh brett stevens of the new york times proposed a few days ago that the israelis go

00:19:27.660 in and put the palestinian authority back in charge as it was until 2007 i think that is a very bad idea

00:19:36.940 in part because the palestinian authority is weak in part because it is just about as radical

00:19:42.380 as hamas it just mixes a blend of violence and legitimate activity but i i trust it no more than i 0.68

00:19:56.220 trust hamas if it had the power it would engage in the similar kind of uh offensives as hamas has no

00:20:02.700 i i see it as as useless as negative and do not want to see it have any role in gaza and nor for that

00:20:12.300 matter in the west bank i think it is a very negative presence there not as bad as hamas granted but

00:20:18.540 but very bad all right we need to take a quick break when we come back i do want to ask you about

00:20:25.580 the ongoing potential for this to grow wider uh what all of this means for the abraham accords and

00:20:33.180 what what we're seeing i know in cities around the world people coming out in support of this that's

00:20:39.420 absolutely mind-boggling more with daniel pipes when we come back

00:20:42.460 last week one of the uh the big concerns was this war spreading and between when we're recording

00:20:51.100 now on thursday afternoon and and when this is published things could change but there was a false

00:20:57.500 alarm at one point that an invasion had been launched from uh southern lebanon into northern israel

00:21:05.740 uh daniel this obviously has to be a concern for israel for its supporters and allies um do you see

00:21:16.700 iran in the background trying to egg on hezbollah for example do you see other countries in the region

00:21:23.900 deciding that they're going to get involved how does this this potential for an expansion

00:21:30.780 of the war that israel has with hamas um what's the potential for that blowing up wider the potential

00:21:38.380 is very much there for hezbollah in lebanon to attack israel is hezbollah has a far larger arsenal

00:21:45.660 a more deadly arsenal it can do a great damage to israel uh hezbollah is autonomous as far as we know

00:21:52.140 it is not under the thumb of the mullahs in tehran they can't simply say go

00:21:56.780 uh the leader hasana sorla and others make their own decisions i'm inclined to think they will not

00:22:04.140 join in could well be wrong but i think they're inclined not to i think the ferocity of the israeli

00:22:10.620 response uh will be a disincentive to join in for that matter uh where as you said we're on thursday

00:22:18.940 afternoon there's been a call for israeli muslims to rise up against their co-nationals the jews

00:22:26.780 of israel i'm inclined to think that won't happen we'll know we'll know by the time this is posted

00:22:32.860 i think again they're aware of the anger and i don't think they want to provoke it

00:22:39.420 uh the um the iranian foreign minister was headed to um i think it was his plane was headed towards

00:22:47.900 damascus and the uh the israeli air force um i don't know exactly what they did they you know

00:22:54.940 fired some rockets uh towards that direction and suddenly it was turning around and and heading

00:22:59.820 back to uh to tehran iran obviously wants to get involved they i mean they they funded hamas how much

00:23:08.700 they were involved directly in this is is a point of debate i understand but they obviously want to be a

00:23:15.420 part of this they see this as a a chance to weaken um the little satan that um you know that they view

00:23:24.780 israel as whereas america of course being the big satan um do you think iran does make that mistake

00:23:32.540 of getting involved well from all i know the iranians have funded hamas the usual number

00:23:41.660 mentioned is 70 million u.s dollars a year uh to to which i reply yes but qatar funded

00:23:53.100 with israeli encouragement permission and encouragement funded hamas the tune of

00:23:58.540 something like 360 million u.s dollars so what this points to is the fact that the israeli security

00:24:05.100 establishment was under the impression that if hamas has money and people get salaries things will be

00:24:13.580 quiet and there will not be so much attack uh that clearly was wrong finally that's been dispelled

00:24:22.780 the iranians i was going to ask why would israel encourage qatar to to fund them but that that was the

00:24:30.540 thinking was essentially if people have jobs they won't bother us right that historically has been

00:24:38.860 early the zionist and then the israeli approach look palestinians we will bring you jobs we will

00:24:44.620 bring you clean water electricity you're better off with us calm down don't fight us unfortunately for

00:24:50.940 israel it has never worked in 140 years but it is a continuous approach until

00:24:55.100 a few days ago maybe it will be abandoned now but getting back to iran uh the iranians are intent on

00:25:05.500 fighting israel uh preferably using proxies lebanese yemeni palestinian and whoever else they can find

00:25:14.620 there's an article i saw that mentioned afghans they want to recruit uh they're leery of fighting israel

00:25:22.780 directly because uh that could be a lot of pain but they're quite ready to fight israel to the last

00:25:29.740 palestinian much the same way uh uh iran is willing to fight saudi arabia in yemen in a proxy they they

00:25:39.740 don't seem to want direct conflicts they they want to go you know do it in a roundabout way

00:25:45.340 what does all of this um we saw some of the um the responses from israel's arab neighbors

00:25:55.500 saudi arabia even saying um at one point that you know that the attacks were due to the actions

00:26:03.900 and negligence of israel does this change the abraham accords which appeared to be setting

00:26:10.380 these at one time enemies on a better footing let me provide a bit of background before getting

00:26:17.340 into the accords the arab states well the palestinians were the enemies of israel until 1948

00:26:25.580 on a local basis and then in 1948 the arab states got involved egypt jordan syria

00:26:33.180 iraq iraq saudi arabia even lebanon but primarily egypt jordan and syria they lost they lost again and

00:26:43.340 again and again by 1973 they'd had it they didn't want to make war so for 25 years from 48 to 73

00:26:52.460 it was the arab states were the main opponents of israel it was army against army air force against

00:26:57.420 air force navy against navy but then in 1973 the arab states quit this is somehow not noticed with two

00:27:07.020 exceptions in 1982 and 1991 the arab states have not in the past 50 years 50 years to the day

00:27:13.820 practically given that the last war was in october 1973 the arab states have withdrawn they talk they

00:27:22.060 might engage in economic boycotts but they don't engage in military battles and as time has gone on

00:27:29.180 uh more and more states have said we've had enough first it was egypt with the peace treaty of 1979

00:27:37.100 then it was jordan peace treaty of 1994 then in 2020 there were four states uae bahrain morocco sudan

00:27:45.420 now there's the possibility of saudi arabia so the trend is clear now in within this trend

00:27:51.500 there are various obstacles uh primarily the palestinian case but in general the governments

00:27:58.220 are fed up with the palestinians however in the 50s and 60s when the when the conflict was live in the 0.75

00:28:05.180 countries the governments mobilized their populations and distracted their populations by talking about

00:28:11.900 israel israel israel and the legacy of that period long ago as it is still there and populations are

00:28:19.260 agitated about israel in the way the governments are not and so governments have to be a bit cautious

00:28:24.780 they want to end this conflict with israel but they have populations that sometimes can get very

00:28:29.340 agitated and they certainly got agitated you know with events like the massacre on october 7th

00:28:36.380 so uh yes i think it's going to slow things down it might even derail them to some extent but the larger picture

00:28:43.820 i think remains the same that the arab states want to end this conflict and now there's the additional

00:28:49.260 point that the arab states particularly the gulf persian gulf states are afraid of iran and

00:28:56.140 the united states is no longer there as it used to be particularly with the iran deal sending money and

00:29:02.140 what not to iran and so who are they to look to uh russia china uh they look to the neighborhood strongman

00:29:10.540 which is israel so they have an added incentive and however much the populations are agitated by

00:29:16.860 what's going on i think the the rulers of these countries and none of them are democrats will continue

00:29:23.340 to close down the conflict with israel i mean at one point it looked as if some of the the arab states

00:29:31.740 or the persian gulf states would actually lean on hamas lean on the palestinian authority to say you

00:29:39.100 know what it's time to stop guys it's it's time to move on um obviously that was not successful

00:29:47.580 do you think they play a role in getting the palestinian people to say you know what you've

00:29:53.580 you've had hamas as your rulers for a long time it's time to reject that uh and i and i ask in this

00:30:01.260 way because you know i know they can be uh brutish thugs but a population can't get rid of brutish

00:30:09.020 thugs it's just that oftentimes people are either explicitly or implicitly allowing the thugs to

00:30:16.220 operate um do do the other arab states and have a role in in getting the palestinian people to say

00:30:25.900 enough already well their focus has been on the west bank and the palestine authority that rules the

00:30:31.340 west bank and uh until this massacre the focus was on saudi efforts to pay off

00:30:40.780 to provide money and perhaps some other benefits to the pa the palestine authority and a return get

00:30:46.460 it to sign off on the saudis having perhaps formal diplomatic relations with israel that clearly has been

00:30:54.140 sidelined for the moment but they have not been making that effort with with hamas it just didn't

00:30:57.980 have that kind of clout um and uh no i don't think in to answer your basic question can they get the

00:31:08.460 palestinians to give up the fight with israel no i don't think they can they don't have that kind of 0.89

00:31:14.220 authority the only ones who can do that are the israelis we we've talked about the religious aspect of

00:31:20.140 of of this and and obviously for some in hamas that is a driving force what about

00:31:29.020 the great satan little satan idea is some of this driven by a hatred of america and israel is just a 0.55

00:31:39.100 proxy

00:31:42.380 it's complicated i did an article some decades ago looking at at conspiracy theories in the middle east

00:31:50.860 and showed how there's a persistent contradiction between the conspiracies say that the united

00:32:00.780 states runs everything and israel is its unsinkable 1.00

00:32:05.500 aircraft carrier the israelis have no autonomy in fact uh just within days ago uh the head of the pa

00:32:14.060 mahmud abbas said that israel is nothing but a colony of the united states

00:32:18.860 and then there's the other uh version which is uh the jews run the united states congress is dominated

00:32:26.700 jewish money jewish media uh presidency is in hawk to israel and everything the united states does is

00:32:35.180 run by from jerusalem you would think uh they'd settle on one or the other but in fact both are current

00:32:42.380 and there is a underlying uh consistency uh despite the contradiction which is that things are not as

00:32:51.180 they seem to be things are deep and dark and terrible and there are conspiracies taking place

00:32:57.020 uh they just can't figure out exactly which way the conspiracy goes the the second conspiracy that

00:33:04.780 you mentioned about israel controlling the united states that sounds like something i would experience

00:33:09.820 on a a campus a university campus college campus be it in your country or mine and we've seen

00:33:19.660 not just on campuses but an awful lot of support expressed a giant rally in dearborn michigan we had a

00:33:26.620 pretty big rally here in in toronto sydney opera house in australia around the world people came out

00:33:33.180 and said you know despite the images they saw they said that they supported this and

00:33:41.180 what is bizarre is that it is often wrapped up in

00:33:44.300 decolonization decolonization language and the language of of of the progressive faculty club

00:33:53.900 that that this is somehow justified because uh we need to decolonize israel uh we need to decolonize

00:34:02.940 palestinian lands um is this just a trap that mental trap that people have worked themselves into over the

00:34:11.740 years that they're unable to see that you know perhaps things have changed and in the sands have

00:34:18.060 shifted and you're on the wrong side here let me give a bit of history uh through most of the 20th

00:34:25.740 century the left whether it be moderate liberals or communists was sympathetic to zionism and

00:34:35.500 is israel i'm old enough to remember that well probably not old enough to remember the fact that

00:34:41.100 stalin was critical to the emergence of israel in 1947 48 he saw israel as a vehicle the socialists of

00:34:51.980 israel the leftists of israel indeed the communists of israel as a vehicle against the british empire

00:34:58.060 now the the soviets dropped israel by 1955 but even later when things you remember i remember

00:35:06.700 um say 1967 war between israel and three arab states uh the left was on israel's side uh this

00:35:16.700 changed as a as a result of of a whole host of factors perhaps most important is soviet anti-zionism

00:35:25.020 the soviet union became the ally of the arabs and began to portray israel as a colonial state as a tool

00:35:32.700 of the imperialists and the like also the variety of developments in the 1990s i won't go through them

00:35:40.700 all but perhaps the most important was the election of nelson mandela in 1994 which freed up the apartheid

00:35:51.340 label and the left looked around and said what's the apartheid state jimmy carter wrote a book called

00:35:57.580 israel the apartheid state and increasingly uh the durban conference of 2001 increasingly the left became

00:36:07.180 anti-israel and the further out you go on the left the more anti-israel in general the older liberals such

00:36:15.980 as joe biden still have a warm feeling towards israel and the younger liberals are more hostile when you get

00:36:23.980 to the university you find enormous hostility that verges on anti-semitism so israel has a major problem

00:36:31.740 with the left conversely the right which was back in the day cooled israel perhaps the american president

00:36:40.860 who was most hostile not perhaps the american president who was most hostile to israel was dwight eisenhower

00:36:47.180 not because he was hostile to the state as such but he saw it as a

00:36:51.260 impediment to forming anti-soviet alliances uh gerald ford was probably the second most

00:36:58.140 both republicans um and so republicans were cool in the mid-1980s the switch came the republicans

00:37:06.300 became whether conservatives in general not just the united states but around the world whether it be

00:37:10.460 japan or brazil or india canada uh became warmer towards israel and the liberals became cooler

00:37:18.140 and that's the trend we're on now for 30 years i don't see an end in sight

00:37:26.940 so you don't see that that changing over the next little while i don't

00:37:30.700 in terms of american presidents we've watched as president after president has made israel and peace with

00:37:39.980 the palestinians a major major uh effort you know it they've tried to make it almost as a

00:37:48.860 an end cap on their career be it george hw bush clinton obama

00:37:54.700 uh even donald trump to a degree got involved in we got the abraham accords biden has not really

00:38:06.060 engaged in the same way do you have a sense why and and is an american presence required i mean it

00:38:12.940 hasn't helped so far uh so is it required to actually ever get to an ending piece glad you picked

00:38:19.340 up on that because very very few people have just one correction uh trump's palestinian uh effort went

00:38:25.980 nowhere but it was a big plan introduced with great hoopla and then when that failed he turned to the

00:38:31.260 abraham accords with the states you're right biden is the first president i think since gerald ford

00:38:37.500 in the mid 1970s that's say almost 50 years ago who's not had his palestinian peace plan it's remarkable

00:38:43.820 and i keep wondering how this can be um for example george w bush was criticized for not having planned

00:38:52.300 i think he came up i forget the number with 14 of them in the course of his eight years

00:38:56.780 and like every few months and yet he was criticized for not trying hard enough and here biden has simply

00:39:02.860 said you know or he hasn't said anything he's just taken a pass on it and no one criticizes him

00:39:08.780 and no one expects him to and it absolutely befuddles me i don't know how this came to be

00:39:13.820 i guess the only explanation i can offer is that they wised up and thought well this isn't getting

00:39:19.180 anywhere nobody gets uh nobel prizes for this anymore uh let's just try other things and

00:39:25.340 furthermore you know china russia they're you know peer problems now that have to be dealt with so let's 0.92

00:39:31.500 focus on those but i am very very surprised but but is america's participation is is that required to

00:39:39.260 get to a peace do you think or is it ultimately going to come down to the people on the ground

00:39:45.660 let me rephrase your question are american bad ideas necessary to get to an agreement no they're not

00:39:52.300 uh united states government has come up with one bad idea after another no it's not necessary in fact it's

00:39:58.220 an impediment all right daniel thank you very much for your time today thanks for the invitation again

00:40:03.740 this has been the full comment podcast a post media production this episode was produced by andre

00:40:09.900 prue with theme music by bryce hall kevin libin is the executive producer remember you can subscribe

00:40:15.900 to full comment on apple podcast google spotify or amazon music and you can help us out by giving us a

00:40:21.660 rating leaving a review and by telling your friends about us thanks for listening until next time i'm brian lily

00:40:33.740 you

Full Comment - October 16, 2023

Obliterating Hamas in Gaza is Israel’s only option now

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