Full Comment - Offering euthanasia to struggling veterans is government policy

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00:01:12.740 Medical assistance in dying.

00:01:19.820 It's been in the news, in the headlines lately, for all the wrong reasons.

00:01:24.160 Hello, I'm Brian Lilly, guest host of Full Comment this week.

00:01:27.000 And we're going to delve into the issue of medical assistance in dying from a very specific

00:01:33.280 angle.

00:01:33.740 But before we get to that, let's just set the table.

00:01:37.540 It first became legal in Canada to seek help in dying from a medical professional in 2016.

00:01:43.500 This was prompted by a Supreme Court decision telling the federal government to change the

00:01:48.440 legislation.

00:01:49.680 Now, MPs are looking at expanding it to include people dealing with mental illness.

00:01:55.780 There's also been calls from some medical professionals to say medical assistance in

00:02:00.440 dying should be expanded to younger age groups, including even infants, according to some.

00:02:05.720 But that's not what has the conversation going in Canada right now.

00:02:09.480 The conversation is being driven primarily around the issue of veterans.

00:02:15.660 Veterans seeking assistance for a variety of medical or psychological issues, being offered

00:02:22.820 the chance to seek medical assistance in dying instead of getting the help they need.

00:02:28.340 It's prompted a review at Veterans Affairs Canada, and it has people wondering, where have

00:02:34.240 we gone as a country?

00:02:35.940 One of the people who has been at the forefront of this is Mark Menke.

00:02:39.820 He is the host of a podcast called Operation Tango Romeo.

00:02:44.340 It deals with these very issues.

00:02:47.100 Well, a lot of other issues.

00:02:48.160 So I'll let Mark explain it now as he joins me.

00:02:50.220 Mark, Operation Tango Romeo, explain what that means, the TR.

00:02:55.860 The TR in Tango Romeo stands for trauma recovery.

00:02:59.280 So how this started was I was a peer support facilitator for a year or two, and we had people

00:03:06.480 driving for two, three hours every other week to be part of that group.

00:03:10.680 And I thought, well, geez, it must be a lot of value here for people to be put in that

00:03:14.820 kind of effort, so I wanted to scale it, and that's what I did, and now it's available

00:03:20.500 around the world instead of just our little group.

00:03:23.480 So that's how it started as for peer support, and then it became an aggregate for healing

00:03:28.800 modalities.

00:03:29.940 So I go and find everybody that I can, every resource that I possibly can, bring them to

00:03:35.620 the show and give them a platform so that people can shop from like a Chinese menu of services.

00:03:41.880 And now, through no planning of my own, it's become an advocacy project as well.

00:03:49.480 Because of my center point in the veteran community, people just keep coming to me and

00:03:54.920 asking for help.

00:03:56.400 Sometimes I can help, sometimes I can't, but I always try, and if I can't, I redirect them.

00:04:01.580 But a fellow came to me with audio recordings that he made of his phone calls with Veterans

00:04:07.980 Affairs Canada, and these recordings, these two recordings that he gave me, were the apology

00:04:13.220 calls from Veterans Affairs Canada apologizing for offering MAID.

00:04:18.900 And since that has come across my desk, I haven't stopped with trying to understand this myself,

00:04:26.380 and it's been an ever-evolving story.

00:04:29.500 Right up until the last week, when Christine Gauthier had testified in front of committee

00:04:36.020 there at the Standing Committee of Veterans Affairs.

00:04:38.680 And it's a far worse problem than I ever would have imagined when I was first exposed

00:04:43.780 to this.

00:04:45.940 Yeah, and I want to ask you about that, because it's, you know, been portrayed as perhaps just

00:04:52.880 one Veterans Affairs agent, perhaps just a few people.

00:04:55.800 Well, as you've been discussing this, and as you say, people come to you, you've been

00:05:01.880 finding out that this has been going on longer than we've been led to believe.

00:05:08.320 How far back do you think this goes?

00:05:10.900 How frequent is this happening?

00:05:14.860 So let's start with when the first veteran came out.

00:05:18.480 So when the first veteran came out and was broken by Global News, he had come to me weeks

00:05:25.080 prior and told me to sit on it and not let it out of the bag.

00:05:29.320 So I respected what he wanted me to do.

00:05:32.980 And that individual remains anonymous, correct?

00:05:36.680 Unfortunately, yes.

00:05:38.940 There's three of them that I've been working with that are staying anonymous, which, what

00:05:43.800 do you do?

00:05:44.160 I have to respect their decision.

00:05:45.920 It would be much more powerful if they decided to use their voice.

00:05:48.480 Which one did?

00:05:51.280 He goes by the pseudonym Bruce.

00:05:53.720 He did a 10-minute testimonial on my show, but I just spoke with him yesterday, and he

00:05:59.560 won't come forward to even testify at the committee in an anonymous fashion.

00:06:04.420 He's been a little bit gun-shy about all this.

00:06:07.820 So the story from Veterans Affairs Canada was that there's just one veteran, and they were

00:06:15.260 adamant about that.

00:06:16.180 Paul Ladwell was grilled three times.

00:06:18.420 He said, no, there's just one veteran.

00:06:20.660 Our investigation, even though we're not done it yet, is absolutely conclusive.

00:06:25.240 There's just one veteran.

00:06:27.720 Well, that was quickly disproven as others started coming forward.

00:06:31.680 And then the story changed.

00:06:32.900 Okay, okay, so it's not just one veteran anymore, but it's only one's veteran service

00:06:38.860 agent.

00:06:39.900 That's the new hard line that they're drawing.

00:06:43.700 And I know that's not true.

00:06:45.560 My count is up to five veteran service agents, and it's really simple math.

00:06:51.060 Wow.

00:06:51.880 The first person that came forward was out of Vancouver, and veteran service agents are

00:06:57.380 divvied up by region.

00:06:58.840 So it was a Vancouver office person that dealt with him because he lives in BC.

00:07:06.980 Brian lives in Ontario, so he had an Ontario, somebody that covers the Ontario area.

00:07:14.120 Christine Gauthier is in Quebec, so she has people that cover Quebec.

00:07:18.400 And she had two separate veteran service agents offer her maid, one male, one female. 0.85

00:07:24.060 So if you're counting the same as I am, that's four veteran service agents right there.

00:07:28.280 I'm working on also one in Alberta who had a male veteran service agent offer her maid.

00:07:35.600 And I am really trying to get her to come forward.

00:07:39.920 I'll keep my fingers crossed.

00:07:41.920 So my personal account, from my personal knowledge of the work that I've been doing, is five veteran

00:07:47.800 service agents, and they refuse to admit it.

00:07:49.920 Are these any of these people who expressed an interest in maid?

00:07:58.900 We have accepted as a society that this is a viable option, a legal option.

00:08:05.380 But to your knowledge, did any of them say, you know what, I think I'd like to consider

00:08:11.540 ending my life?

00:08:12.300 Or were they asking for either medical, physical, psychological help?

00:08:18.340 Of the four veterans that we're talking about, and which are other than the four that they

00:08:23.640 found, that puts the count at eight.

00:08:25.780 But of the four that I have personally dealt with, none of them were asking for maid.

00:08:32.400 They were all going for different reasons.

00:08:35.820 One, veteran number one, he was asking for help with a traumatic brain injury.

00:08:40.360 Um, veteran number two was asking for help with PTSD supports.

00:08:45.880 Veteran number three was asking for help with, um, uh, a wheelchair lift.

00:08:52.480 And all out of the blue, well, you know, if up the road, this is just too much of a burden 0.96

00:09:00.040 for you to bear, we can kill you and we'll help you. 1.00

00:09:03.400 So it's not so messy. 1.00

00:09:04.920 It's absolutely diabolical, Brian.

00:09:06.860 You know, it's, it's shocking to hear, but then you look at within the popular culture,

00:09:17.620 things like the Quebec-based department store, Simon's running an ad, trying to sell clothes,

00:09:26.320 fashion, celebrating maid.

00:09:29.220 And it's something that I think that we either decided as a society to accept, or depending

00:09:39.260 on your view, maybe you think the Supreme Court thrusted upon us, but we, we accepted

00:09:43.860 it, but it wasn't something to be promoted.

00:09:47.220 I never thought.

00:09:48.860 Well, and it's...

00:09:50.240 That's the part that strikes me.

00:09:51.660 Is that how it strikes you, Mark?

00:09:53.740 Well, it has to be a last resort.

00:09:55.640 Now, that ad that you're talking about, her name is Jennifer. 0.97

00:09:58.520 She's dead now.

00:09:59.900 And after her death, all of her friends are coming forward saying she never wanted to die.

00:10:04.360 She never wanted maid. 1.00

00:10:05.960 It was exasperation.

00:10:07.560 The medical system failed her and she didn't know what else to do.

00:10:11.180 She wanted to live.

00:10:12.540 But instead of offering supports, just like, uh, um, Christine Gauthier with her wheelchair

00:10:18.100 lift, she, well, ma'am, if this issue of dragging yourself through the snow every winter for the 0.98

00:10:25.420 last five years is just too much of a burden, why don't you go kill yourself? 0.99

00:10:31.060 She didn't want to die. 0.99

00:10:33.060 She was looking for help.

00:10:35.340 And instead of help, uh, people are being encouraged to pull the plug.

00:10:40.360 Now, hypothetically, I am not opposed to maid under the right circumstances.

00:10:46.480 If it's your truly end of life, you have an untreatable terminal deal and you want to

00:10:54.020 avoid the last couple of months of suffering, sure, makes sense.

00:10:58.700 But there's a 24-year-old man who was missing, um, an eye and had a little bit of depression

00:11:04.960 who died on September 24th of this year on Vancouver Island.

00:11:09.480 Now, that's not okay.

00:11:10.520 And how was that even possible being that maid shouldn't be allowed, isn't allowed officially 0.61

00:11:15.520 for mental health issues until March? 0.98

00:11:18.280 Well, apparently that is simply a line of crap because, uh, it's happening. 0.74

00:11:25.220 People are already accessing it for mental health issues, even though that's not officially 0.96

00:11:30.820 supposed to be accessible till March of next year.

00:11:33.900 And for those that do choose, they're choosing a permanent option for a temporary problem.

00:11:42.260 And, and out of exasperation because our, because of the failure of our medical, um, it's like

00:11:48.640 racketeering.

00:11:49.240 Our medical system is creating the problem through a lack of service.

00:11:52.800 And then the only solution they offer for the problem that they are causing through their

00:11:56.860 ineptness is assisted suicide. 1.00

00:11:59.800 It's disgusting.

00:12:00.720 I remember when this, um, was first being discussed on, on Parliament Hill and, uh, one

00:12:10.240 of the MPs at the time was expressing concern.

00:12:13.060 The, he said, if we don't have enough palliative care, his, his worry was that we would have

00:12:18.680 seniors under pressure to take this option because, well, hospitals are full.

00:12:25.880 We can't get you into a hospice.

00:12:28.080 Uh, you should consider this option.

00:12:29.980 That was the concern.

00:12:31.300 I never remember anybody raising the concerns that you do.

00:12:36.540 I, I spoke to advocates from all sides while covering this story.

00:12:40.320 I never remember hearing this, um, it being put forward for, for veterans seeking help,

00:12:47.580 or as you said, the young woman, Jennifer, uh, that was used in the ad. 0.91

00:12:52.460 It, it, it's truly shocking.

00:12:54.820 Now, Lawrence McCauley, the veterans affairs minister has come forward and said, we would

00:13:00.900 like to, um, hear from anyone and everyone.

00:13:05.680 He's ordered an investigation internally.

00:13:09.320 Do you have any faith in that Mark?

00:13:11.560 Zero.

00:13:11.760 So I, uh, just received a letter from Lawrence this morning that I opened up and I gave him

00:13:18.780 the same math that I gave you, Brian, uh, breaking down how they work by region that I personally

00:13:24.600 know.

00:13:25.120 Here I am little lonely podcaster in Alberta, and I'm able to find all these people and

00:13:31.840 yet, uh, they can't with, with all the resources of veterans affairs, Canada, it's absolutely

00:13:38.260 ridiculous.

00:13:38.720 And they say, well, call this 800 number. 0.95

00:13:43.200 So you want the people who have been offered assisted suicide by veterans affairs, Canada

00:13:49.800 to call veterans, Canada to say, Hey, you offered me assisted suicide.

00:13:56.180 On what planet is that ever going to happen?

00:13:59.140 There has to be.

00:14:00.800 And the veterans ombudsman I've, I've invited Nishika on the show a dozen times.

00:14:05.980 Just keep, and the, she's never got over the finish line. 1.00

00:14:08.760 She's never been on the show.

00:14:10.660 Um, I don't have any faith in those two routes that are offered, which is through the veterans 1.00

00:14:16.120 ombudsman or directly through back.

00:14:18.920 That's how he's saying to come forward.

00:14:20.760 There has to be, if there's going to be, it has to be somebody that's third party where

00:14:26.300 people are comfortable coming forward.

00:14:27.860 So I've been asking and people have been coming forward, come forward to me, come forward

00:14:32.560 to me.

00:14:33.240 Clearly, I am pretty good at keeping people's names out of the media.

00:14:37.380 I'll protect your name if you want to, but come forward to me and let me be that center

00:14:42.960 point or somebody else that you know that you want to have as a center point and appoint

00:14:47.700 a spokesperson.

00:14:48.500 But these people have to come forward.

00:14:51.300 And what we really need, Brian, is a whistleblower from Veterans Affairs Canada, either a current

00:14:56.280 or former employee that knows full well that caseworkers are set up by region, that knows

00:15:03.720 full well that, um, people were offering made.

00:15:07.940 And how can it be five caseworkers and it wasn't policy?

00:15:11.980 That doesn't make any sense.

00:15:13.240 Five caseworkers in four, at least four different jurisdictions you found?

00:15:17.480 So, uh, BC, Alberta, Ontario, Quebec is what I've found so far.

00:15:24.020 Yeah.

00:15:24.700 No, at that point it, it has to be policy.

00:15:27.360 It has to be.

00:15:28.820 The, do you come at this as, as a veteran yourself?

00:15:34.400 Tell me your backstory, how you became involved in this.

00:15:38.400 So I served 91 to 95, did about four and a half years.

00:15:42.020 Um, in 94, I was a UN peacekeeper in Croatia during the genocide.

00:15:46.640 And back in 94, absolutely nobody was talking about PTSD.

00:15:51.440 And if they were, it wasn't in a very nice way.

00:15:54.360 So when I was exhibiting over the top outbursts and just classic symptoms that we know today,

00:16:01.620 but back then, oh, Mark's just crazy.

00:16:05.320 And, uh, there was no help.

00:16:07.460 There was nobody put their hand on my shoulder and say, Hey, we got to talk to somebody.

00:16:11.780 And even if there was somebody to talk to, they wouldn't have known how to handle it back

00:16:15.340 then anyway.

00:16:16.720 Um, so I went 23 years without being diagnosed, 23 years of a train wreck before my wife finally

00:16:24.320 put my, her hand on my shoulder and says, Mark, those are just crumbs.

00:16:28.440 We can clean them up as I was jacking up my kid and, and, and hurting him by giving, always

00:16:37.540 being on his case over nothing.

00:16:41.160 So that was 2017 when I, uh, finally stepped forward, picked up the thousand pound telephone,

00:16:47.520 got my diagnosis and started on this road.

00:16:50.740 And, um, it's a brutal road.

00:16:52.940 It shouldn't have to be this brutal, but it's a brutal, brutal road to recovery.

00:16:56.920 And a lot of people, I'd say the majority don't make it.

00:17:01.000 They either pop out of the system because it's just too darn hard or they don't get started

00:17:05.300 in the first place.

00:17:06.900 Um, of everybody that has reached out for help and is in the system, I would guess that 80%

00:17:14.320 never did reach out for help.

00:17:16.540 Uh, I think it's a very small portion of veterans actually use the services because they know

00:17:23.540 that from all the stories that we hear in the veteran community, that it's always a fight.

00:17:29.220 Everybody I know who's been through VAC, it's been a fight, fight, fight, because VAC will

00:17:34.260 deny, deny, deny until you die or give up.

00:17:38.180 When you're going through five years and three appeals for anything, whether it be from tinnitus

00:17:45.560 or you name it, um, most people give up.

00:17:49.860 So as expensive as we are to the government, um, the system is working pretty darn good

00:17:55.360 to keep our mouths shut and our pockets empty.

00:17:58.380 Uh, it's, it's horrendous.

00:18:02.880 What kind of services are most people that you're talking to looking for?

00:18:08.240 Now you're an interesting case because you just said you went 23 years without seeking

00:18:14.480 help, but there's got to be an awful lot of veterans that need a bit of help, maybe not

00:18:20.400 a ton.

00:18:21.200 And there, would you say they're still not getting the assistance they need?

00:18:26.500 Everybody has to fight for everything.

00:18:29.040 The easiest service to receive is for PTSD.

00:18:32.480 That one seems to be a fairly low barrier to entry.

00:18:35.520 Um, so I'm grateful for that, but everybody I know who, um, has bad knees or a bad back

00:18:42.640 or, uh, any, any physical service related injury, it is absolutely grueling.

00:18:50.040 It is a Mount Everest to get to the point where you're actually receiving the services.

00:18:55.480 It is unbelievable. 0.93

00:18:56.560 My tinnitus claim was ridiculous. 0.64

00:18:59.440 Um, deny, deny, and I, my ears are ringing right now just from saying the word tinnitus,

00:19:04.820 but, um, uh, they're even ignoring the cause of tinnitus.

00:19:09.500 It's, it has nothing to do with your ears.

00:19:11.120 It's, it's neural inflammation.

00:19:13.460 Um, but they want you to have an audio test.

00:19:17.680 Well, what does the audio test have to do with anything?

00:19:19.540 It's my brain, not my ears.

00:19:21.280 Um, and, um, so there's just all these programs, all these barriers to these programs and, um,

00:19:30.600 it is too much, you know, so I, I, uh, got my PTSD claim and I've, I've left it at that.

00:19:37.240 Mark, I want to ask you about getting services from Veterans Affairs Canada.

00:19:41.240 You know, your case, you were 23 years without seeking assistance, uh, PTSD having a major impact

00:19:49.180 on your life and your family, but there's gotta be an awful lot of veterans who maybe they,

00:19:54.480 they just need a little bit out on the physical side or mental health supports or what have

00:19:59.120 you.

00:19:59.940 Is it difficult for, for them to get assistance as well?

00:20:03.960 You know, is it just hard cases that are difficult to deal with?

00:20:08.640 What's it like trying to get services out of this federal body that's supposed to be

00:20:13.380 there to help those who serve does.

00:20:15.800 So for some reason, PTSD claims are the easiest to get services for.

00:20:20.960 Although when I went through, it still took 10 months from the time I put my hand up and

00:20:27.780 entered the system to the time I actually saw a therapist.

00:20:30.560 And I just did a show this morning and he was five months.

00:20:34.160 So, hey, improvement.

00:20:36.340 Uh, but that's the best that they got.

00:20:38.260 Um, every other claim, if it's a physical claim of any sort, the initial claim is extraordinarily

00:20:45.480 difficult and the ongoing claim is still extraordinarily difficult.

00:20:50.320 On my tour, uh, Tommy Anderson had both of his legs blown off from a landmine in Croatia,

00:20:55.600 uh, right at the beginning of the tour.

00:20:57.760 So, I mean, that's 28 years ago and he is still struggling for services all the time.

00:21:05.160 He went, uh, without prosthetic legs for, I don't want to put a date to it.

00:21:10.020 Uh, I just follow him on, on Facebook, but it's a considerable amount of time, like a month

00:21:14.400 that he wasn't, uh, able to walk because he was getting refitted.

00:21:18.660 So, he was without legs for a month, you know, um, uh, and all the other issues that he's

00:21:25.220 having from that landmine strike way back in 94, um, eyeball surgery, still shrapnel that's

00:21:31.820 in his body.

00:21:32.820 And every year he's got to prove his injuries.

00:21:36.820 Yep.

00:21:37.240 No, legs didn't grow back.

00:21:38.620 No, my eye didn't grow back.

00:21:40.580 And he has to prove this every, every year.

00:21:43.560 And unfortunately, these are common stories.

00:21:46.840 Everybody I know that's an amputee.

00:21:49.320 Can I just stop you on that?

00:21:50.700 Yeah.

00:21:51.100 Can I, can I just stop you on that?

00:21:52.240 Because I've got to figure this out.

00:21:54.280 How?

00:21:55.560 I can understand certain injuries you can, you can recover from, and maybe you don't need

00:22:02.160 assistance, but how have they not figured out that his legs will not grow back?

00:22:07.900 Well, how will they, I've heard this being asked in the house of commons and the answer

00:22:12.320 is, well, we're just checking to see if there's been any changes on your file.

00:22:16.840 Like, you know, it's like, well, okay, but how about we leave out the part of the permanent

00:22:21.580 injury?

00:22:22.400 Um, I was talking with Brock Plaszczak yesterday.

00:22:24.540 He's the, uh, fella who was famously asked at a town hall by Justin Trudeau, our veterans

00:22:31.200 are asking for more than we can give right now.

00:22:33.720 Um, well, so, uh, I'm pretty good friends with Brock now.

00:22:38.660 He's been on the show a couple of times and his struggle threw back a guy missing a leg

00:22:44.040 and a half, um, and like lots of injuries, but he's missing a leg and a half and it's

00:22:51.640 been nothing but a ridiculous struggle for this guy the whole way through.

00:22:56.700 And you'd think we'd be doing a better job with our Afghan vets than we did with our, our 1.00

00:23:02.660 Yugoslavia, um, Balkan vets, but nope, nope, still the same crap. 1.00

00:23:08.700 And, uh, it's because they're acting like an insurance agency there. 0.97

00:23:15.020 And Brock is of the belief, and he might be right, that there's an internal incentive system.

00:23:19.760 And I'd love to see an internal on it to see if, if this is true, but there's an internal

00:23:24.400 incentive system to not give out claims.

00:23:26.980 Now, I don't know if that's true, but that he's of that belief and, uh, there's actually

00:23:32.760 very, very many people that, that believe that for sure.

00:23:35.740 It's a common conversation in our community.

00:23:38.380 If you ever saw the, um, uh, the movie, uh, Mr. Incredible or the Incredibles, uh, about

00:23:45.280 a fake superhero family, he works as an insurance agent and, uh, yeah, he got incentives for

00:23:51.400 turning things down.

00:23:52.940 Uh, Brian Lilly, guest host on Full Comment this week, speaking with Mark, uh,

00:23:56.980 Mikey about the problems facing veterans and the issue of vets and maid.

00:24:02.580 We'll continue the conversation in just a moment.

00:24:06.260 We'll get back to the discussion around veterans and maid in a moment, but I want to continue

00:24:12.260 the conversation, uh, Mark by discussing services still.

00:24:16.660 And you've described how difficult it is.

00:24:18.780 You've described the, uh, absolutely insane position where people have to prove that their

00:24:25.520 legs have not grown back.

00:24:28.360 In many ways, it sounds like our healthcare system.

00:24:30.640 And when I speak to Americans about our healthcare system and you know, they, they'll have heard

00:24:36.380 either wonderful things or horror stories, depending on who they talk to.

00:24:40.000 And they asked me about it and I say, well, the service is good when you can get in.

00:24:45.640 Once you get in, are they looking after people?

00:24:50.040 It's a fight.

00:24:51.340 Um, if you need anything through Veterans Affairs Canada that isn't in the box and it's a very

00:24:58.040 small box, uh, it's, you go to the OSI clinic, which the operations stress injury clinic, and

00:25:04.020 you get talk therapy or you talk to the shrink and you get pills.

00:25:07.520 That's the box.

00:25:08.640 Anything outside of that, good luck.

00:25:12.100 Uh, and that's why there are about 4,500, um, veterans agencies all over the place in,

00:25:19.040 in Canada and just little ones, little mom pops like myself or five person, um, agencies.

00:25:26.920 And that's a big part of my show.

00:25:28.380 I try to find as many of them as I can and bring them on the show to talk about the services

00:25:32.860 that they offer, um, because VAC is not the place that you can go for a retreat or for

00:25:41.440 equine therapy or float therapy or psychedelics or any of the other things that have high efficacy.

00:25:48.600 Um, you, you just can't go to VAC for that.

00:25:51.560 And, uh, some of the stuff like the ketamine clinics that are coming out, very high efficacy

00:25:56.420 rate.

00:25:57.400 Um, good luck getting it.

00:25:59.040 I mean, they say that they're going to cover it, but it's a battle and a half to get them

00:26:02.380 to actually cover it.

00:26:03.880 And, and what's a ketamine clinic?

00:26:06.360 So they're pretty new.

00:26:07.640 Uh, there's two in Calgary, the newly and way found or way finders.

00:26:11.940 So it's a psychedelic, um, assisted therapy with medical professionals and the, the science

00:26:21.840 behind, behind ketamine, MDNA, psilocybin, it's more and more studies coming out all the

00:26:28.760 time.

00:26:29.060 But I can tell you, I've had all these people on the show and including the people that

00:26:33.580 have gone through the therapies and it looks good.

00:26:36.560 It looks really good.

00:26:37.880 Something like 80% of the people get significant help in a short amount of time, as opposed

00:26:43.040 to the OSI clinic who their own internal numbers show an efficacy rate of between 12 and 16%.

00:26:49.820 That's it.

00:26:50.740 That's all you can expect.

00:26:51.740 So that's why I do what I do to try to find a better mousetrap.

00:26:56.940 After the first world war, we just called it shell shock.

00:27:00.300 Second world war.

00:27:01.600 There wasn't much.

00:27:03.320 How did, uh, people like my grandfather deal with it?

00:27:07.300 A couple of shots of Raya on a Saturday watching the Leafs play.

00:27:11.360 That was the way too many people dealt with it.

00:27:14.400 Um, you would have thought that we would have gotten better.

00:27:18.600 As you said, you're from the, the Balkan era and friends that were in the reserves that

00:27:24.880 went over and, and served.

00:27:26.640 And I remember, um, around the time that you would have been there running into one of them

00:27:31.040 in a nightclub and, uh, asked how he was doing and it broke down.

00:27:34.880 Nobody would have thought of, of getting PTSD help back then, because you should say we didn't

00:27:41.760 know about it, how can they still be failing at, at this?

00:27:48.120 Do they still have the mindset that you've just got a, uh, of the second world war era?

00:27:55.000 Has there been a, a change in outlook at veterans affairs or are they just really, really dated?

00:28:03.280 The US high clinics are less than 10 years old.

00:28:06.460 I mean, actually having help for all this is new.

00:28:10.200 It's all new.

00:28:11.760 And different police agencies for the, on the first responder side, different agencies

00:28:16.980 have different levels of supports.

00:28:19.200 Some of them, it's safe.

00:28:20.740 You can put up your hand and get help without it being a career killer.

00:28:23.840 Others, it's not safe.

00:28:25.620 I know of one RCMP agent, uh, or one RCMP officer rather in Alberta right now, she got

00:28:31.540 blackballed by her detachment.

00:28:33.700 Blackballed because she asked for help. 0.99

00:28:35.860 Um, others, super supportive.

00:28:37.700 So, we're getting better, but we've got a long way to go.

00:28:42.400 And just look at the business model of the Royal Canadian Legion.

00:28:45.260 It's still, hey, get cheap beer here to medicate yourself.

00:28:49.260 I mean, uh, we haven't gone, uh, gotten any better since World War I with the Royal Canadian

00:28:57.680 Legion.

00:28:58.120 It's still a pub.

00:28:59.280 How about health clubs?

00:29:01.000 How about closing down all these pubs that aren't making money anyway and, and open up

00:29:05.320 a bunch of gyms, you know, and have a coffee corner in the, in the corner and maybe a couple

00:29:10.840 of private, uh, meeting rooms for, for veterans.

00:29:13.660 That would be a model that makes sense because then you're actually supporting the health

00:29:17.500 of veterans and let them have the sense of community that way.

00:29:21.660 Because the Legion is so dead right now.

00:29:24.020 It's just gone.

00:29:25.040 You go there and it's not a place for veterans anymore.

00:29:28.240 Matter of fact, there's story after story, including a story that I personally experienced

00:29:32.460 where an actual veteran walks in the Legion and gets escorted right back out.

00:29:37.780 Why?

00:29:40.780 Well, it went kind of viral.

00:29:43.000 I had, um, in my personal experience, and unfortunately it's not rare.

00:29:47.100 I found out after my, I posted this video of my response, but I was at the High River Legion

00:29:52.420 and, um, I just dropped off my youngest son at Air Cadets.

00:29:57.080 They were following in their dad's footsteps.

00:29:59.080 I was Army, but you know, that's okay.

00:30:01.000 Yeah, you can forgive them.

00:30:02.280 Air's okay.

00:30:03.380 But, um, my oldest is an Army.

00:30:05.340 But, uh, I, well, I got a couple of hours to kill while my youngest boy's an Air Cadet.

00:30:11.460 So I walk into the, what should be my haven, right?

00:30:14.480 Like this is my, this is my house.

00:30:16.260 This is supposed to be my house.

00:30:18.800 And I walk in and I instantly get all these cold stares from all these, um, bingo players. 1.00

00:30:24.440 Like, ooh, that's uncomfortable.

00:30:26.000 So I kind of gingerly scoot, scoot around all these, um, bingo players and I go to the bar. 1.00

00:30:32.820 I don't drink, but I, um, I asked if they have a non-alcoholic beer or something.

00:30:37.060 Oh, our bar's closed.

00:30:38.580 Okay.

00:30:39.040 Well, just so you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a veteran.

00:30:41.120 I'm just, you know, not Joe Blow.

00:30:42.560 I am a veteran looking for a little refuge for the, for a couple hours.

00:30:46.540 Oh, okay.

00:30:46.980 Well, you can have, there's a pitcher of water.

00:30:48.940 Oh, okay.

00:30:49.540 I, then I saw that, uh, the coffee actually was on.

00:30:53.620 She just didn't tell me about it.

00:30:54.960 So I, well, I'm going to go have a coffee.

00:30:57.840 And there was an honor jar there.

00:30:59.560 So I put five bucks in the honor jar to, to have my coffee.

00:31:03.360 Grabbed a book off the shelf, sat down and I'm reading, uh, reading a book, having a coffee. 0.98

00:31:08.480 And while they're B-52, you know, and just minding my own damn business. 0.86

00:31:14.320 Well, about 10 minutes in, you have to leave. 0.96

00:31:17.740 Well, I don't, I don't get it.

00:31:21.820 Like, what am I doing?

00:31:23.400 And, um, are, are they leaving?

00:31:25.400 Are the bingo players leaving?

00:31:26.640 And she said to me, no, they paid to be here.

00:31:31.040 That didn't sink in Brian until about half an hour later after I'd left.

00:31:35.080 And I went, wait a second.

00:31:37.200 I'm pretty goddamn sure I paid to be here.

00:31:40.740 I paid in every way possible to be here. 0.77

00:31:44.180 You know, those words sunk in later.

00:31:46.180 But stories like that, um, go on and on and on.

00:31:50.620 And the comment stream on the video I made of that, uh, were just a litany of stories that are similar.

00:31:57.280 You know, I, I didn't even think of the Legion as being a place that veterans could go get help, but it should be.

00:32:03.760 Well, there's the, there's the pubs and then there's Northwest Command.

00:32:08.780 And, um, the reason I did that viral video is that when I first reached out for help at the beginning in 2017, it was the Legion that I reached out to and they were Johnny on the spot.

00:32:20.740 So I thought, what if I was a veteran in distress?

00:32:25.180 What if I was suicidal that day?

00:32:27.660 And what if I just was sitting there with my coffee and my book, working up the courage to ask for help because I was too embarrassed?

00:32:35.300 What if that was the case?

00:32:39.160 And that's why I had to make the viral video because I've been that guy.

00:32:44.420 I've been at the end of my rope.

00:32:46.020 And to be treated like that, when it's supposed to be our house, it, um, I had, I had to do it.

00:32:57.320 If you were to advise the government that says veterans are asking for more than we can give right now, if you were to advise them, uh, what would be a few concrete steps that they could tell, take to help the veterans community?

00:33:15.020 And, and move away from this. 0.96

00:33:17.360 Well, we can't help you, but we can help you kill yourself. 0.99

00:33:23.480 Veterans Affairs Canada has to get burned to the ground and rebuilt. 0.97

00:33:28.520 The leadership at the top is either unable or unwilling to make change.

00:33:35.220 I don't know which it is, but they all got to go and they got to get replaced with people that know how to make things happen.

00:33:41.860 It's a giant bureaucracy right now, and it has to change.

00:33:46.760 It's pretty simple.

00:33:47.960 You get a bunch of stakeholders who are actually on the ground dealing with stuff like myself.

00:33:54.500 Get a couple dozen of us together.

00:33:57.520 Workshop us.

00:33:58.520 We'll come up with solutions.

00:34:00.660 Uh, just the other day, I was talking about how VAC should look.

00:34:04.680 It's a pretty simple model.

00:34:05.860 Step number one, quit making them gatekeepers.

00:34:11.640 When you have PTSD, filling out paperwork is one of the most difficult things imaginable.

00:34:16.500 I don't know why it makes no sense to me.

00:34:18.520 My wife is scratching her head about it, but that's just how it is. 0.94

00:34:22.280 Jumping through these hoops is forcing us to do that as predatory.

00:34:25.940 So instead of that, just assume we're not liars right off the bat. 0.93

00:34:32.200 Uh, you know, like who lies their ass off to get a, an appointment with a shrink? 0.79

00:34:37.980 It doesn't even make sense.

00:34:39.920 Or who commits fraud so that they can get a ride in a float tank?

00:34:44.560 You know, like it, it doesn't make any sense.

00:34:47.380 Or who commits fraud so that they can do equine therapy?

00:34:50.760 It doesn't make sense.

00:34:52.340 People don't do that.

00:34:53.820 So remove the barrier to, to entry and turn service agents, case workers into paper processors.

00:35:03.540 And then you have outreach agents that physically go to veterans, to their door and say, hey, how you doing on a regular schedule?

00:35:12.780 Uh, especially if they have an open claim and, uh, and assess for, for yourself, have them as assessors to, to, to see what you need in effort to try to help, not to try to, um, uh, right now there's private detectives that follow some of us around trying to disprove us, trying to prove that we're liars and scammers.

00:35:33.880 So if you got the money to spend on private detectives, how about, um, outreach agents instead?

00:35:40.980 Look, I've heard of things like that for workplace insurance, because we've all heard the story of the guy who, oh, my, my back's bad.

00:35:51.040 It's like, I can't go to work.

00:35:52.440 And then they're, you know, laying a brick driveway, uh, for their neighbor.

00:35:57.980 That's not the case here though.

00:35:59.560 I mean, you're out of the service.

00:36:01.660 If you put up your hand and you say you have PTSD, you're not getting a million bucks.

00:36:05.840 As you say, you're getting an interview with a shrink.

00:36:09.620 Yeah.

00:36:10.100 I mean, there is a money, uh, uh, claim at some point as well.

00:36:13.480 Like I'm living off of, um, off of a monthly pension right now from my injuries.

00:36:18.940 Um, so, but it took five years of a meat grinder to get it.

00:36:22.680 So I don't mind a bit of skepticism with that, but for immediate support, for immediate help to go see a psychologist or some sort of therapist.

00:36:31.660 That you're comfortable with.

00:36:33.480 Um, I don't care if it's forest bathing, like whatever somebody wants, just give it to them because they have to start somewhere and it's better than them not starting at all.

00:36:44.780 One of the, um, I get a lot of notes from my show.

00:36:49.160 One of my favorites or standouts is a couple that reached out to me to say, this is what your show has done for me.

00:36:58.220 My husband is terrified to reach out to VAC.

00:37:02.940 So instead, we've been listening to your show together.

00:37:05.520 As he's gaming, we have it playing in the background while I'm rubbing his shoulders.

00:37:10.300 Then eventually, he could listen to it, just the two of us, without him gaming.

00:37:15.720 And we listen and we know that we're not alone.

00:37:17.960 And now, after a year of doing that, using my show as a stepping stone to build that courage, he's in actual therapy now.

00:37:28.280 Wow.

00:37:29.200 You know, and that's how it has to be.

00:37:32.460 It has to be a soft place to land.

00:37:34.860 And why is it up to me to do the job of VAC?

00:37:37.240 VAC, how is it that one guy by himself, with no resources other than my will, can find all these resources and vet them?

00:37:48.380 Why can I do it, but VAC, with all their billions of dollars, can't? 0.93

00:37:51.900 It's ridiculous.

00:37:53.680 There's solutions that they're not even looking for. 0.85

00:37:56.240 They're not even trying to find the solutions.

00:37:58.240 And it's, people are dying as a result.

00:38:03.440 Divorces are happening as a result.

00:38:06.000 Suicides are happening as a result.

00:38:07.920 And it's wrong.

00:38:10.580 If you haven't already, I encourage everyone to check out Operation Tango Romeo, otherwise known as Trauma Recovery Podcast, and the resources that Mark has up on his page.

00:38:23.300 It's been a great conversation, Mark.

00:38:25.020 I thank you for taking the time and for this second round of service that seems like it might be going longer than your first round, helping people deal with what they have gone through.

00:38:38.500 So, best of luck to you, and I hope we can chat again.

00:38:41.520 Thanks, Brian.

00:38:41.960 I really appreciate the conversation.

00:38:43.360 I'm here anytime.

00:38:44.740 Full Comment is a post-media podcast.

00:38:47.380 I'm guest host Brian Lilly.

00:38:48.640 This episode was produced by Andre Proulx.

00:38:50.940 Theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:38:52.420 Well, Kevin Libin is the executive producer of Full Comment.

00:38:55.880 You can subscribe, and I encourage you to subscribe to Full Comment on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, Amazon Music.

00:39:02.700 You can listen through the app or your Alexa-enabled devices, and you can help us by giving us a rating or leaving a review.

00:39:09.860 Make sure you tell your friends.

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00:39:12.900 Mostly, thanks for listening.

00:39:22.420 Thank you.

Full Comment - December 12, 2022

Offering euthanasia to struggling veterans is government policy

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