Full Comment - May 06, 2024


Profiting from despair： How decriminalization advocates exploited B.C.’s opioid crisis


Episode Stats

Length

50 minutes

Words per Minute

134.50693

Word Count

6,734

Sentence Count

385

Misogynist Sentences

4

Hate Speech Sentences

4


Summary

When David Eby, the NDP Premier of British Columbia, says, we made a mistake, we need to fix the decriminalization process, you know it hasn t gone well. Julian Summers is a clinical psychologist, professor at Simon Fraser University, and monitors what is going on in his home province.


Transcript

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00:02:02.960 When David Eby, the NDP Premier of British Columbia, turns around and says,
00:02:12.640 we made a mistake, we need to fix the decriminalization process, you know it hasn't gone well.
00:02:19.120 Hello, welcome to the Full Comment Podcast.
00:02:20.960 My name is Brian Lilly, your host.
00:02:22.680 And today we're going to talk about drug policy, decriminalization, safer supply,
00:02:27.520 issues that are gripping much of the country, not just because they're political,
00:02:31.860 but because of the impacts, both for families dealing with addiction, a loved one who has
00:02:37.700 dealt with addiction or loss, but also because of the impact some of the decisions our politicians
00:02:43.540 are making around drugs are having on our communities.
00:02:46.240 David Eby and the NDP government in BC initially asked for decriminalization of all hard drugs.
00:02:53.000 And less than a year and a half in, they're asking the Trudeau government in Ottawa to recriminalize drugs in public areas.
00:03:02.180 Not completely, but in public areas.
00:03:04.420 Why?
00:03:05.280 Chaos, public disorder, and an outcry from a citizenry that said, this just isn't working for us.
00:03:12.220 Julian Summers is a clinical psychologist, professor at Simon Fraser University,
00:03:16.360 and he deals a lot in the area of addictions, recovery, and monitors what is going on in his home province.
00:03:24.260 Julian, thanks for the time.
00:03:26.040 It's great to be with you, Brian.
00:03:28.400 Maybe this is too big a question to ask off the top, but how did things go so badly with decriminalization?
00:03:36.420 I mean, surely some people would have seen the outcomes ahead of time, but Premier Eby said,
00:03:44.300 well, we need safeguards in place, and maybe they should have been there at the start
00:03:48.240 to stop things like drug use in children's playgrounds or on public transit.
00:03:53.620 Did nobody see this ahead of time?
00:03:55.560 Well, people did see it, and it was unpopular to point out limitations of the BC government's planning.
00:04:13.280 And so many of my colleagues who were concerned and shared my concerns felt pressured to remain silent.
00:04:23.020 And this is due to the organizations that they're working in, whether it's the provincial government itself,
00:04:30.680 our health authorities, and even physicians in private practice were, you know, going back now three years
00:04:38.820 when this kind of got started, were saying, gosh, you know, I'm really glad you're speaking out, but I can't.
00:04:45.260 And, you know, it's some kind of a deficiency on my part that leads me to blurt out things.
00:04:54.540 I didn't think that commenting critically on the government's plans would result in such a severe backlash.
00:05:01.860 Now I've got a clear understanding of why that took place.
00:05:06.060 But the policymaking environment here was quite superficially informed by the science of addiction
00:05:17.000 and relevant evidence elsewhere.
00:05:20.940 The single intervention of decriminalization was regarded as kind of a logical next step
00:05:28.980 in light of the limitations of the war on drugs.
00:05:31.720 As though there are no intermediary possibilities.
00:05:37.240 And in her report, our provincial health officer, Dr. Bonnie Henry,
00:05:42.000 when requesting decriminalization, said,
00:05:45.560 decriminalization on its own, without additional measures at this time,
00:05:50.160 will result in improvements because it will lower stigma,
00:05:54.160 which in my view is a crazy assertion.
00:05:56.720 And that it'll allow police to focus on other things.
00:06:02.080 So we'll see net improvements.
00:06:04.500 We must follow that, she said, by further increasing the regulation and legalization of illicit drugs.
00:06:12.040 Another crazy idea.
00:06:15.020 So, you know, it wasn't popular to point these things out.
00:06:18.500 But increasingly, the government is being compelled to face the reality that they badly miscalculated.
00:06:27.640 To me, it seems that British Columbia, like here in Ontario, Toronto specifically,
00:06:35.700 that the decision making is being guided by activists, more so than thinking things through.
00:06:42.820 In reaction to British Columbia asking for a recriminalization and all the documented social ills that came with it,
00:06:51.720 and the fact that police were powerless to do anything,
00:06:55.100 our mayor, our medical officer of health, our provincial chief medical officer,
00:07:00.180 they're all still defending it.
00:07:02.040 What happened in British Columbia?
00:07:04.440 And they're saying that we need to move forward with this.
00:07:09.120 In fact, Dr. Eileen DeVilla put out a video the other day defending the policy and the request to the federal government
00:07:17.620 to have decriminalization in Toronto saying,
00:07:20.300 well, you know, no one will be able to smoke a crack pipe in a playground or shoot drugs into their arm on transit.
00:07:30.560 And then you look at what the request is, and it's clear that they will,
00:07:34.160 because police would only be able to act if someone was smoking a crack pipe or shooting heroin
00:07:40.660 in a childcare center, a K-12 school, or an airport.
00:07:45.620 And outside of that, they would have no ability to deal with someone causing major distress
00:07:51.320 for transit riders, for parents, for small children.
00:07:55.140 Yeah, I mean, it's hard to understand how someone would say that,
00:08:01.740 especially in close proximity to the testimony that we're hearing from police officers
00:08:06.920 and police representatives giving testimony in Ottawa
00:08:11.560 and stating that, you know, the questions like,
00:08:15.920 well, we hear if people are, patients in hospital are smoking fentanyl and crack
00:08:22.420 in their hospital rooms, fellow patients are concerned, police, what can, you know,
00:08:28.260 surely you can do something.
00:08:29.520 And the response is, well, no, we can't.
00:08:31.800 No, we can't.
00:08:33.420 And so it's hard to kind of, you know, imagine, well, why would someone in a position of authority
00:08:39.340 be saying the opposite in advance of a change?
00:08:45.240 And I think we have to look at money.
00:08:47.180 I think we have to look at the fact that whether it's in our municipal politics,
00:08:54.560 our provincial politics, in our academic institutions,
00:08:59.620 that we have increasingly individuals whose livelihoods and whose careers
00:09:06.140 are related to the flow of public funds,
00:09:10.480 whether it's their salaries, their staff support, their grants,
00:09:13.540 their own salaries as researchers in many instances,
00:09:17.180 and who are dependent on the flow of funds linked to particular policies.
00:09:24.240 Decrim and what's been referred to as safe supply
00:09:27.560 are major thrusts of current federal and BC provincial politics
00:09:33.780 and are essentially purchasing advocates.
00:09:39.300 I remember going back to when it was just a safe injection site.
00:09:43.940 I think it was the Portland Society.
00:09:47.200 Was that the organization in Vancouver?
00:09:49.500 Portland Hotel Society.
00:09:50.500 Yeah, Portland Hotel Society.
00:09:52.680 And they would always bring up, well, we've got peer-reviewed studies.
00:09:59.480 And then you look.
00:10:00.740 And, okay, well, John peer-reviewed George's study,
00:10:07.200 and George peer-reviewed John's, and Mary peer-reviewed this one.
00:10:11.520 And it was just a group passing it around that all have the same ideology
00:10:16.820 and push for this.
00:10:19.320 And I think, you know, the public is compassionate.
00:10:23.340 People have compassion for addicts.
00:10:25.820 And we've been sold on, whether it was safe injection sites
00:10:30.580 that became safe consumption sites, that became safer supply,
00:10:34.480 that became decriminalization.
00:10:36.920 I think the public has a compassion and they want to help.
00:10:41.060 And they're told this will reduce overdose deaths.
00:10:45.560 This will reduce social ills.
00:10:47.460 And then when you say to the activists and the advocates who push this,
00:10:54.660 well, we tried what you wanted and it didn't work,
00:10:57.260 they say, but we haven't tried it long enough, or we need to do more.
00:11:00.580 And that's what they're doing now.
00:11:01.740 And I look at the BC Coroner's report that comes out monthly
00:11:05.720 on unregulated drug deaths in BC.
00:11:09.020 And I don't know how they can continue to say we need to keep doing this.
00:11:12.700 With the exception of 2019, we've gone up every single year in British Columbia
00:11:18.820 from 370 drug overdose deaths in 2014 to 2,546.
00:11:27.940 I know fentanyl really hit the scene in 2016 and has been growing ever since.
00:11:34.060 But the measures that society has agreed to put in place
00:11:39.020 to try and get better outcomes is not getting better outcomes.
00:11:42.700 Yeah, and it's along the lines of the tactics of the gun lobby in the US
00:11:53.500 that the problem of mass shootings and school shootings and so on
00:11:59.760 isn't that we have too many guns, it's we don't have enough guns.
00:12:03.180 Because we don't have enough guns in the hands of the right people, right?
00:12:07.340 So this is very similar.
00:12:10.180 I've heard that argument, yes.
00:12:11.780 The reason I emphasize the money side is that this whole movement
00:12:19.200 from the perspective of addiction research and what we can do to reduce,
00:12:23.380 to prevent addictions, to help people overcome addictions,
00:12:28.080 is completely missing from the rationale for what we're currently doing.
00:12:33.400 It comes out of a whole different place, as though there was no previous literature.
00:12:37.940 And the main protagonists in BC, we have a government-funded,
00:12:45.360 an industry-funded center, the BC Center for Substance Use.
00:12:50.160 The BC Center for Substance Use was created by people who were formerly the HIV AIDS Center.
00:12:56.600 They essentially rebranded, retitled their initiative, but appear to have preserved the same
00:13:04.700 overall focus on pharmaceuticals, which obviously is integral to the progress that we've made
00:13:11.840 in addressing HIV AIDS, but is a relatively minor component of helping to prevent and treat addiction.
00:13:19.160 To emphasize how sort of odd this policy thrust looks, consider that we're eight years into a declared
00:13:28.580 public health emergency in BC.
00:13:31.160 The only way to perpetuate a mortality crisis is to keep putting people at risk every single day.
00:13:39.440 We have no prevention strategy.
00:13:43.040 It hasn't even crossed the lips of our government leaders, whether on the public service side or the elected side.
00:13:49.280 Everything is focused on supply.
00:13:52.900 If the war on drugs taught us anything, it should be that a focus singularly on try to improve community health
00:14:02.400 by intervening in supply is insufficient.
00:14:05.760 But here we are with an entirely supply-focused strategy.
00:14:11.940 Of course, it's blaming toxic drugs.
00:14:15.020 Not the fact that youth are growing up in despair.
00:14:18.940 Not the fact that people with untreated mental illnesses are increasingly on our streets and succumbing to drug addiction
00:14:25.300 or in SROs, inadequate forms of housing.
00:14:28.880 Nothing to do with the circumstances that are modifiable.
00:14:33.180 I mean, so this is back to the addiction literature.
00:14:34.980 Lots of research shows that, including randomized controlled trials that I've had the privilege of leading,
00:14:41.640 has shown that if we provide people with fundamentally different opportunities that involve changing their circumstances,
00:14:49.180 changing where they live, changing their opportunities to engage in the workforce,
00:14:53.240 to reconnect with their kids and with their families,
00:14:55.720 we see dramatically different results, including crime, addiction, and suffering.
00:15:01.960 But here we have this kind of odd-looking, completely supply-focused initiative.
00:15:08.840 And what makes it worrisome is the people responsible were so convinced that they were correct,
00:15:18.400 that several of them formed their own companies while in public office and while lobbying for safe supply.
00:15:26.160 This includes our former provincial health officer, who formed an opioid company,
00:15:30.820 his deputy, who formed an opioid vending machine company,
00:15:35.240 the chief scientific officer of our major health funding organization,
00:15:40.380 the Michael Smith Foundation, who also was an HIV-AIDS researcher,
00:15:44.540 co-founded the opioid company with our PHO.
00:15:47.220 So hold on.
00:15:48.940 I need to stop you because I'm having trouble believing this.
00:15:53.440 They founded companies to supply opioids to safe supply?
00:15:59.780 Exactly.
00:16:00.740 They were so...
00:16:01.940 They didn't...
00:16:02.940 This is...
00:16:03.840 So this has been reported and is on the record.
00:16:06.220 So did the director, the initial director of the BC Centre for Substance Use.
00:16:11.340 They all worked together on HIV-AIDS, and they were so convinced that the thought that the appearance of conflict,
00:16:24.780 in hindsight, would be irrelevant, that they would likely be seen as the architects of a new era,
00:16:33.080 a new and better era.
00:16:34.320 I think that, you know, having worked with these individuals for many years,
00:16:40.660 I'm now, of course, excommunicated from that particular tribe.
00:16:45.060 But having worked with them for many years, I think they did it believing they were right.
00:16:50.840 Dr. Bonnie, in her report to Ottawa asking for decrim,
00:16:55.780 says that the world is seeing increases in drug-related hardships,
00:17:01.800 including poisoning fatalities, and BC, and she says,
00:17:05.540 BC is poised to lead the way.
00:17:09.120 So there's really, you know, a lot of evidence suggesting that they really, really believed in what they were doing,
00:17:15.920 that they believed that potential conflicts of interest would never rise to the point of scrutiny,
00:17:22.220 but they badly miscalculated.
00:17:25.500 That's...
00:17:26.140 I'm still dumbfounded at that.
00:17:28.800 That is, you know, we were talking before you joined us off-air about all the, you know,
00:17:36.360 former cops and police chiefs who now own a piece of the marijuana industry,
00:17:42.240 the cannabis industry in Canada.
00:17:43.960 But that's legal.
00:17:45.440 These are health officials forming opioid companies to supply something
00:17:50.040 that we would have thought crazy just a few years ago.
00:17:52.960 I interviewed Dr. Sharon Koivu a few months ago about the problem of safer supply,
00:17:58.920 and she had a unique vantage point from where she is in London, Ontario.
00:18:03.300 And Dr. Koivu is an advocate of harm reduction, if done right.
00:18:09.020 But she said there are four pillars of drug policy,
00:18:13.880 prevention, treatment, enforcement, and harm reduction.
00:18:19.240 And she said, we've forgotten about the other three,
00:18:21.540 and we're just doing harm reduction, and that is hurting people.
00:18:25.540 Would you agree with that statement?
00:18:28.200 Well, so I agree that we've lost track completely of the four pillars.
00:18:33.460 I also agree with your kind of query that we aren't even doing harm reduction.
00:18:41.280 Harm reduction was introduced, and one of the—I say this with some sense of, you know,
00:18:52.320 I guess, authority.
00:18:54.580 My mentor in clinical practice was a psychologist named Alan Marlat.
00:18:59.220 Alan literally wrote the book Harm Reduction
00:19:02.020 and was a major force behind its advent in North America
00:19:06.760 after gleaning some of the early insights from European practices.
00:19:12.120 And I had the privilege of contributing to those books
00:19:15.260 and to doing research involving harm reduction now over many years.
00:19:20.440 The point of harm reduction is to be engaging people where they are,
00:19:25.020 to be non-directive.
00:19:26.880 One of the things we were concerned about
00:19:29.040 was the practice of insisting that people had to hit rock bottom
00:19:32.620 before we would engage with them, which is clearly incorrect.
00:19:36.700 So we could help people make improvements
00:19:39.200 without imposing demands on them,
00:19:43.060 but by giving them opportunities
00:19:45.040 and by listening to their own requests for assistance.
00:19:48.900 What can we help you with today?
00:19:52.820 We took that to the extreme in Vancouver,
00:19:55.880 and here's an example of what harm reduction could be.
00:19:58.760 We went up to people who were living homeless.
00:20:01.420 They'd been homeless an average of 10 years.
00:20:03.820 Most were struggling with very severe addictions
00:20:06.440 and all had concurrent mental illnesses,
00:20:10.200 psychotic illnesses, bipolar disorder,
00:20:13.100 so mood-related swings.
00:20:14.880 And we asked them,
00:20:16.120 hey, what can we help you with today?
00:20:19.300 We weren't restricted, though.
00:20:21.040 We said, look, we could go and get a meal.
00:20:24.160 We could help you get your ID.
00:20:25.840 We could help you get reconnected with benefits
00:20:27.960 that you're entitled to.
00:20:29.280 We've also got some apartments.
00:20:31.240 And these were all apartments integrated into healthy communities,
00:20:36.820 so dispersed apartments.
00:20:38.320 Most people said, really?
00:20:40.320 Like, you know, in fact, they said they don't believe us,
00:20:44.260 but in more colorful language.
00:20:46.360 But when they realized we were serious,
00:20:48.700 they said, well, yeah, I mean, where are those places you mentioned?
00:20:52.980 So we offered people that form of harm reduction.
00:20:56.180 They took us up step by step.
00:20:59.540 Next week, we helped them furnish their apartment.
00:21:01.940 We helped them figure out where to buy groceries and cook.
00:21:06.060 We helped them over time to reconnect with employment.
00:21:09.420 On day one, 82% of the people that we worked with,
00:21:12.680 and this is a sample of 500 people,
00:21:14.560 82% listed resuming paid employment as one of their top priorities.
00:21:21.040 25% had kids under age 18,
00:21:23.800 and over time reestablishing a link with those kids
00:21:27.480 understandably became a top priority.
00:21:29.980 But we go step by step by step.
00:21:32.460 And harm reduction, as a non-coercive, volitional form of helping people,
00:21:39.160 has profound benefits.
00:21:40.600 So those randomized trials,
00:21:42.660 which were conducted in five regions of the country,
00:21:47.300 widely published,
00:21:48.700 have been systematically ignored by governments.
00:21:53.660 Instead, what we do in BC,
00:21:55.100 and what we did in response to the surge of homelessness in recent years,
00:21:58.960 was to double down on grouping people all together in buildings,
00:22:03.720 which we showed was inferior to providing actual harm reduction
00:22:10.340 and actual opportunities to reconnect with healthy communities.
00:22:14.960 So, you know, this is something that has a...
00:22:19.040 Well, that is the exact opposite of where harm reduction is now.
00:22:24.360 I'm sure you heard of the tragic shooting here in Toronto outside a...
00:22:28.460 Yes.
00:22:29.020 ...community health center last summer.
00:22:30.480 Yes.
00:22:30.660 The South Riverdale Community Health Center.
00:22:32.600 And it's home to a safe consumption site.
00:22:35.600 And as I found out later,
00:22:37.540 the federal government had brought in a safe, so-called safe supply.
00:22:41.740 And of course, that helped attract drug dealers.
00:22:44.240 And that was part of what happened with the shooting.
00:22:47.760 But started looking into this organization
00:22:50.960 that said it's there to help addicts.
00:22:53.640 And right on their website,
00:22:55.160 and on printed material that they would pass around,
00:22:57.600 they said that they had a philosophy about being simply respectful of
00:23:02.600 and to people who use drugs.
00:23:05.100 No judgment, no expectations,
00:23:07.660 and no desire for people to stop using drugs.
00:23:11.620 That's the key.
00:23:13.080 That's the key.
00:23:13.680 So, I think a succinct way of saying what I was trying to get at before
00:23:21.140 is that harm reduction began as something that was more like a verb,
00:23:26.780 something that was ongoing,
00:23:28.660 and had a direction of improved health very much as its compass.
00:23:34.420 And it became a series of nouns.
00:23:36.940 We hand out, we exchange needles, so that's harm reduction.
00:23:41.940 We provide consumption sites, so we do harm reduction.
00:23:45.840 It's completely become untethered from any sense of throughput,
00:23:51.400 any sense of progress toward ever more improved health,
00:23:55.860 which includes citizenship, connections with people,
00:24:00.680 general health, all of which are attainable.
00:24:03.980 And we've backed our way into some weird dystopia where,
00:24:08.940 in BC again, our provincial health officer is on record
00:24:12.680 in our legislature on Hansard,
00:24:15.480 saying people with opioid addictions don't recover.
00:24:19.640 Well, if that's your belief, I mean, first of all,
00:24:24.460 if that's your belief, you have no business
00:24:26.820 designing policies related to addiction.
00:24:30.440 But it is so grossly misinformed that, you know,
00:24:34.560 but it helps shed light on why we're in such a terrible place.
00:24:39.960 That's unbelievable that they would say that.
00:24:42.880 I've met people who have recovered from opioid addiction.
00:24:46.120 It's a struggle, but they do, and they can.
00:24:49.640 With the right programs and processes in place.
00:24:53.080 And it feels to me like right now,
00:24:55.240 what we've done is taken something that you described
00:24:58.860 and said, okay, well, you know, it'd be easier.
00:25:01.020 Let's just make sure they've got a steady supply
00:25:03.240 and keep them alive until they die.
00:25:05.420 And, you know, it's aiding and abetting
00:25:08.220 not only addiction, but a diminished life.
00:25:16.080 Very much so.
00:25:17.280 I don't think it's an overstatement to sum it up
00:25:21.340 that we're increasingly producing despair
00:25:26.260 and our leaders have found a way
00:25:29.700 to turn despair into a profit setter.
00:25:32.800 Julian, we have to take a quick break,
00:25:36.480 but I know you've got some fascinating stats
00:25:39.200 on places like Portugal, which people say,
00:25:42.340 well, why don't we just be like Portugal
00:25:44.180 and decriminalize everything?
00:25:46.220 And you've got stats that will, I think,
00:25:48.320 blow the socks off people.
00:25:49.560 So we'll talk about that when we come back.
00:25:51.460 One of the things that the activists and activists
00:26:04.940 for further liberalizing drugs in Canada
00:26:18.860 will always say is,
00:26:20.500 why can't we just decriminalize everything
00:26:22.260 like we did in Portugal?
00:26:23.340 And my view is that we've got the cart before the horse
00:26:29.640 in terms of how we're approaching this.
00:26:32.140 So, Julian, I want to hear your take on this.
00:26:36.260 We have, in British Columbia,
00:26:38.940 you've gone full decriminalization,
00:26:41.040 hasn't helped with the problem.
00:26:42.920 You've taken, you know, been the leaders
00:26:44.760 in British Columbia, especially in Vancouver,
00:26:48.000 on liberalizing drug laws and policies at every turn.
00:26:51.580 We're not far behind here in Toronto
00:26:53.640 and it's not helping.
00:26:54.960 So what are they doing differently?
00:26:56.560 Because everyone says Portugal's a success story.
00:27:00.280 Have they done it completely different
00:27:02.040 than the rest of us?
00:27:02.840 There's an era in Portugal's approach to drugs
00:27:07.660 that is important to focus on
00:27:11.480 and it's roughly between 2000 and 2010.
00:27:15.260 The global financial crisis changed social policies
00:27:19.380 around the world, including in Portugal,
00:27:22.260 and the results since then change.
00:27:24.640 So if we go up to the present,
00:27:27.720 the budget for centralized activities
00:27:32.480 addressing addiction was cut by over 85%
00:27:36.700 following 2010.
00:27:38.660 And there's been a slide.
00:27:40.500 But if we go back to the era
00:27:42.040 that Portugal is known for,
00:27:46.300 people who are interested can look
00:27:49.480 at the Portuguese National Drug Strategy.
00:27:51.720 It's available online.
00:27:52.820 And I think it's an extremely informative document
00:27:56.180 for any jurisdiction like ours
00:28:00.620 that's going through a similar crisis.
00:28:04.340 They said in this document
00:28:06.420 that they must make social reintegration
00:28:10.120 the central organizing theme.
00:28:13.200 They went about doing that by,
00:28:15.460 first of all,
00:28:16.240 They, like us in BC,
00:28:19.160 were not criminalizing, air quotes,
00:28:21.720 people for possession of drugs
00:28:23.540 before they made the legal change.
00:28:25.920 There were very few people
00:28:27.800 being arrested and prosecuted.
00:28:30.380 But they made the change
00:28:32.380 to decriminalize possession
00:28:33.940 so that police officers
00:28:36.280 could more easily approach people
00:28:39.260 who were obviously in distress
00:28:41.160 and urged them
00:28:43.600 to accompany the police officer
00:28:45.640 to a dissuasion commission.
00:28:47.420 So this is a place
00:28:48.340 where people could sit down.
00:28:50.300 They were treated with respect.
00:28:52.380 And they were encouraged
00:28:54.280 to follow the advice
00:28:56.740 of dissuasion commissions
00:28:57.820 that was advice
00:28:59.900 that they reached
00:29:00.660 in collaboration
00:29:01.700 with the individual.
00:29:03.300 But it's basically around,
00:29:04.380 look,
00:29:05.140 we know that you deserve better.
00:29:07.780 We are alarmed
00:29:10.880 by you're using drugs in public.
00:29:14.580 We're alarmed by the fact
00:29:15.940 that you have no means
00:29:17.200 of supporting yourself,
00:29:18.420 no means of protecting yourself.
00:29:20.900 We want to help you address that.
00:29:23.200 We're not here to say
00:29:24.880 that you must stop using drugs.
00:29:27.000 We are here to say
00:29:28.200 that we cannot collectively
00:29:30.700 accept that that's your life.
00:29:34.100 It has impacts on the community
00:29:35.840 that you live in as well.
00:29:37.780 How are they going to achieve that?
00:29:39.840 They had apartments
00:29:41.260 and places for people
00:29:42.800 to move into
00:29:43.640 that were acceptable,
00:29:45.280 that were decent,
00:29:46.020 that were safe.
00:29:47.140 They had therapeutic communities
00:29:48.760 that people could go to
00:29:50.160 in order to practice
00:29:51.520 over a period of time
00:29:52.900 living without drugs.
00:29:55.340 And also therapeutic communities
00:29:56.860 include a focus on trades
00:29:58.500 and helping people
00:29:59.300 to learn things
00:30:00.140 that they can then take with them
00:30:01.500 after they leave
00:30:02.340 and as the basis
00:30:03.700 for, among other things,
00:30:05.960 keeping themselves
00:30:07.140 on the right track.
00:30:09.260 So the change in the law
00:30:11.680 was a relatively minor component
00:30:13.900 of what contributed
00:30:15.500 to their success.
00:30:16.800 Their success includes
00:30:18.020 a dramatic reduction
00:30:19.720 in public drug use,
00:30:22.120 in drug-related fatalities,
00:30:24.180 and in drug-related crime.
00:30:25.980 And that's really
00:30:26.640 what they're lauded for.
00:30:28.040 But the idea
00:30:29.320 that somehow
00:30:30.540 a change in law
00:30:32.500 can account for that
00:30:34.860 is really missing the point.
00:30:37.260 And it's stunning to me
00:30:38.980 that decision makers
00:30:40.080 have recommended legalization
00:30:43.300 or decriminalization
00:30:44.540 as though that was
00:30:45.740 the magic bullet.
00:30:47.580 They clearly have not bothered
00:30:49.960 to read the Portuguese
00:30:51.020 national strategy.
00:30:52.600 Or look at what worked
00:30:54.300 and what didn't in Portugal.
00:30:55.360 They look at that one thing.
00:30:58.080 And it's funny,
00:30:59.240 you mentioned
00:30:59.980 that they weren't
00:31:01.120 prosecuting people
00:31:02.200 for simple possession
00:31:03.720 prior to making
00:31:04.740 that legal change.
00:31:07.080 The push
00:31:09.740 for decriminalization
00:31:11.180 by our health authorities
00:31:12.880 in Toronto
00:31:13.420 is, well,
00:31:14.500 we have to end the stigma
00:31:15.480 and people shouldn't be charged
00:31:17.020 with simple possession.
00:31:18.820 But it's right
00:31:19.840 in their own application
00:31:21.360 to the federal government
00:31:22.580 that in 2021,
00:31:24.320 the last year
00:31:25.020 they had stats for
00:31:25.800 when they submitted this,
00:31:27.660 that there were 617 people
00:31:30.360 charged with possession.
00:31:33.060 And only 36 of them
00:31:35.900 were charged
00:31:36.300 with possession alone.
00:31:37.260 The rest,
00:31:37.980 it was an add-on charge
00:31:39.360 to public disorder,
00:31:41.760 assaults,
00:31:42.760 various things.
00:31:43.960 And, you know,
00:31:45.360 much the same
00:31:46.240 as it was for marijuana
00:31:47.280 prior to it becoming legal.
00:31:48.700 The cops aren't going around
00:31:50.380 busting you
00:31:51.220 for having
00:31:54.120 a small amount
00:31:55.120 of drugs on you.
00:31:56.280 They're busting you
00:31:57.280 for something else
00:31:58.180 and then they add that on.
00:32:01.200 And, you know,
00:32:02.820 it's back to
00:32:04.380 where we started
00:32:05.100 the conversation.
00:32:07.240 Without any tools,
00:32:09.300 we're going to have
00:32:10.380 the public disorder
00:32:11.920 and chaos
00:32:12.500 that you've experienced
00:32:13.620 in parts of British Columbia
00:32:15.400 where the police
00:32:16.620 just have no ability
00:32:17.820 to do anything
00:32:18.720 for people
00:32:20.160 who are in distress,
00:32:22.800 who are using drugs openly
00:32:24.180 in places
00:32:24.900 that will scare
00:32:26.060 children,
00:32:27.640 seniors,
00:32:28.440 parents,
00:32:29.720 students trying
00:32:30.220 to go to school.
00:32:30.860 So, again,
00:32:33.280 it is this vicious cycle
00:32:35.300 where we just keep saying
00:32:36.620 make drugs easier to get,
00:32:38.440 but there's no treatment.
00:32:40.780 There's no prevention.
00:32:43.500 It's frustrating.
00:32:45.580 So what would a good model
00:32:47.640 look like for you?
00:32:51.140 Well,
00:32:52.140 so we,
00:32:52.800 you know,
00:32:53.940 the end of decriminalization
00:32:56.120 or the beginning
00:32:58.660 of the end
00:32:59.220 of decriminalization
00:33:00.200 is not
00:33:01.000 a really
00:33:02.260 big cause
00:33:03.080 for celebration.
00:33:04.840 We've essentially
00:33:05.980 squandered
00:33:07.060 years now
00:33:08.820 and are
00:33:10.220 inching our way
00:33:11.180 back
00:33:11.840 to
00:33:12.600 a position
00:33:13.820 we were in
00:33:14.920 a year
00:33:17.380 and a half ago,
00:33:18.940 but with
00:33:20.040 far
00:33:20.820 greater damage
00:33:22.240 socially
00:33:23.520 than we had
00:33:25.240 in the meantime.
00:33:26.980 We,
00:33:27.600 so the things
00:33:28.280 that we need
00:33:28.980 are,
00:33:29.340 immediate
00:33:30.380 triage.
00:33:31.340 We need
00:33:31.660 immediate
00:33:32.240 assessments
00:33:32.860 of people
00:33:33.580 who are
00:33:34.620 at high risk.
00:33:36.000 And high risk
00:33:36.720 can be
00:33:37.280 people are
00:33:38.560 visibly using
00:33:39.360 drugs.
00:33:39.860 This is in
00:33:40.360 encampments
00:33:41.460 and in other
00:33:42.160 places.
00:33:43.080 In the city
00:33:43.700 of Edmonton
00:33:44.360 right now,
00:33:44.980 there's a
00:33:45.340 navigation center.
00:33:46.560 People are
00:33:46.960 brought from
00:33:47.460 encampments
00:33:48.140 voluntarily
00:33:49.980 and they
00:33:51.300 have access
00:33:51.960 in one
00:33:52.960 place
00:33:53.400 to
00:33:54.460 immediate
00:33:55.460 respite
00:33:56.060 if they
00:33:56.440 want that,
00:33:57.480 respite with
00:33:57.980 their pets,
00:33:59.160 respite with
00:33:59.620 their kids,
00:34:00.720 but they
00:34:01.120 also have
00:34:01.600 access to
00:34:02.500 the entire
00:34:03.580 suite
00:34:04.840 of publicly
00:34:06.100 funded services,
00:34:07.520 health care,
00:34:08.300 social support,
00:34:09.300 getting your
00:34:09.920 ID right away
00:34:11.320 before you
00:34:11.900 leave.
00:34:12.860 Indigenous
00:34:13.220 supports are
00:34:14.100 there for
00:34:15.400 Indigenous
00:34:16.000 peoples.
00:34:16.520 And it's
00:34:18.560 all in
00:34:18.920 one spot.
00:34:20.000 So we
00:34:20.320 need to
00:34:20.840 have an
00:34:21.680 immediate
00:34:22.180 integration
00:34:22.920 and an
00:34:23.980 assessment of
00:34:24.580 people.
00:34:25.200 We're losing
00:34:25.860 people who
00:34:27.020 are struggling
00:34:27.520 with serious
00:34:28.160 mental illnesses
00:34:28.880 and we
00:34:30.060 need time
00:34:30.640 to assess
00:34:31.220 that.
00:34:31.720 Then we
00:34:32.260 need places
00:34:33.060 to direct
00:34:33.720 them.
00:34:34.060 This is like
00:34:34.500 the dissuasion
00:34:35.000 commissions.
00:34:36.040 We need
00:34:36.360 things like
00:34:36.880 therapeutic
00:34:37.320 communities.
00:34:38.420 Most of
00:34:38.820 the people
00:34:39.260 who are
00:34:39.640 dying of
00:34:40.120 poisoning
00:34:40.500 are unemployed
00:34:41.600 and have
00:34:42.380 been unemployed
00:34:42.900 for some
00:34:43.380 time.
00:34:44.220 They're also
00:34:44.640 young and
00:34:45.240 they tend
00:34:45.580 to be
00:34:45.960 young men.
00:34:47.520 The construction
00:34:48.740 sector, by
00:34:49.700 the way, we've
00:34:50.060 been lied
00:34:50.560 to.
00:34:51.140 It's not
00:34:51.560 primarily
00:34:52.080 construction
00:34:52.680 workers.
00:34:53.280 It's primarily
00:34:53.780 unemployed
00:34:54.280 people.
00:34:55.280 But the
00:34:55.740 construction
00:34:56.100 sector does
00:34:56.900 play a
00:34:57.320 potential role
00:34:58.120 as a
00:34:59.320 potential trade
00:35:00.560 focus in a
00:35:01.440 therapeutic
00:35:01.760 community.
00:35:02.600 We need to
00:35:03.400 be mounting
00:35:04.000 these
00:35:04.520 immediately,
00:35:05.620 places where
00:35:06.100 people can
00:35:06.600 go, get
00:35:08.040 some respite,
00:35:08.840 get some
00:35:09.180 support, and
00:35:10.140 learn trades
00:35:11.480 and learn ways
00:35:12.480 of earning
00:35:13.240 money that
00:35:13.840 they can then
00:35:14.440 use after
00:35:14.940 they leave.
00:35:15.500 We need
00:35:16.460 to dismantle
00:35:17.760 our SRO
00:35:18.360 empire.
00:35:19.960 We need
00:35:20.180 to stop
00:35:20.620 single-room
00:35:21.960 occupancy hotels.
00:35:22.880 Thank you.
00:35:23.600 Our response
00:35:25.240 to mental
00:35:26.340 illness and
00:35:27.560 homelessness,
00:35:28.700 including
00:35:29.220 addiction,
00:35:30.080 has been to
00:35:30.960 create buildings,
00:35:32.720 whether they're
00:35:33.720 old buildings,
00:35:34.760 the old
00:35:35.260 single-room
00:35:35.680 occupancy hotels
00:35:36.380 that used to
00:35:36.840 be used by
00:35:37.640 itinerant workers,
00:35:38.680 or new
00:35:39.460 buildings, which
00:35:40.200 are essentially
00:35:40.820 towers of
00:35:42.080 bachelor
00:35:42.480 apartments,
00:35:43.660 with consumption
00:35:45.060 sites in the
00:35:46.060 building.
00:35:46.760 This is just
00:35:48.100 further to our
00:35:49.580 ability to
00:35:50.560 generate money-making
00:35:52.440 opportunities,
00:35:53.240 development
00:35:53.620 opportunities,
00:35:54.300 on the backs
00:35:55.620 of a social
00:35:56.440 crisis.
00:35:58.400 We need to
00:35:59.260 get away from
00:35:59.800 that and
00:36:00.640 recognize that
00:36:01.620 the thing that
00:36:02.440 helps people
00:36:03.020 recover is not
00:36:04.140 simply being
00:36:05.120 housed, and
00:36:05.780 it's certainly
00:36:06.300 not being housed
00:36:07.540 in a building
00:36:08.140 where everyone
00:36:09.000 else is a
00:36:09.520 drug user and
00:36:10.400 there's a
00:36:10.700 consumption
00:36:11.060 site.
00:36:11.720 The thing
00:36:12.200 that's helped
00:36:12.720 people the
00:36:13.260 most has
00:36:14.320 been joining
00:36:15.520 healthy communities
00:36:16.420 where people
00:36:17.060 are treated
00:36:17.640 with respect
00:36:19.180 and treated
00:36:20.740 as though they
00:36:21.360 have responsibilities
00:36:22.360 as citizens
00:36:23.320 as well.
00:36:24.260 People rise to
00:36:25.180 that challenge.
00:36:26.620 Well, they've
00:36:27.320 got people next
00:36:28.260 to them who
00:36:28.860 are going to
00:36:29.680 work, and
00:36:30.340 then you're
00:36:31.880 like, oh,
00:36:32.260 well, yeah,
00:36:32.860 I should go to
00:36:33.660 work as well,
00:36:34.360 as opposed to
00:36:35.060 the guy in
00:36:36.140 the room next
00:36:36.900 to you says,
00:36:37.400 why do you
00:36:37.840 want to do
00:36:38.160 that, loser?
00:36:38.740 I got a good
00:36:40.020 score, let's
00:36:40.600 go downstairs
00:36:41.100 to the
00:36:41.480 consumption
00:36:41.840 site.
00:36:42.680 Exactly.
00:36:43.780 Exactly.
00:36:44.920 You've mentioned
00:36:46.880 several times
00:36:47.540 getting ID, and
00:36:48.320 I think it's
00:36:49.260 such a small
00:36:51.280 thing, but if
00:36:51.940 you have not
00:36:52.400 been around
00:36:53.160 people living
00:36:55.340 and dealing
00:36:55.880 in these
00:36:56.300 situations,
00:36:57.300 then why does
00:36:58.100 that matter?
00:36:59.760 But it matters
00:37:00.500 tremendously, because
00:37:01.300 if you've
00:37:01.920 fallen that far
00:37:03.320 that you're
00:37:03.680 living in an
00:37:04.440 encampment,
00:37:05.040 which we seem
00:37:06.680 to just accept
00:37:08.080 that people
00:37:08.720 now live
00:37:09.700 in tents
00:37:10.280 and live
00:37:12.040 in conditions
00:37:12.580 that we
00:37:14.080 spent decades
00:37:15.060 trying to
00:37:15.480 ensure never
00:37:16.140 existed, if
00:37:17.520 you're living
00:37:17.880 in that
00:37:18.240 situation, chances
00:37:19.080 are you've
00:37:19.580 lost your
00:37:20.000 ID.
00:37:21.120 You've been
00:37:21.940 on the
00:37:22.440 streets for
00:37:22.840 so long, you
00:37:23.380 no longer
00:37:24.020 have it.
00:37:24.820 And when you
00:37:25.160 don't have
00:37:25.520 ID, you
00:37:26.020 can't get
00:37:26.420 government
00:37:26.920 services, you
00:37:27.700 can't get
00:37:28.300 a place to
00:37:29.380 live, even
00:37:29.980 if you
00:37:30.320 somehow get
00:37:31.100 the money.
00:37:31.500 Yeah, it's
00:37:33.100 a key insight.
00:37:35.180 When I was
00:37:35.980 in Edmonton's
00:37:37.240 Navigation
00:37:37.700 Center myself,
00:37:39.300 the area,
00:37:42.820 table really,
00:37:44.120 where government
00:37:45.800 ID is produced
00:37:47.400 and provided
00:37:48.080 on site was
00:37:50.240 the most
00:37:50.840 popular in
00:37:51.580 general, the
00:37:52.100 most popular
00:37:52.760 service that
00:37:54.080 people access
00:37:54.760 because of the
00:37:55.700 reasons you
00:37:56.140 mentioned.
00:37:57.380 And we need
00:38:00.080 to be thinking
00:38:00.620 about the
00:38:01.280 pathway back.
00:38:02.740 A very small
00:38:04.160 outfit in
00:38:04.940 Victoria supports
00:38:07.140 people living
00:38:07.840 rough in the
00:38:08.540 city on
00:38:09.120 Pandora Street
00:38:10.260 and concentrated
00:38:12.860 areas.
00:38:13.960 And one of
00:38:14.300 the services
00:38:14.760 they offer
00:38:15.440 are back
00:38:16.800 taxes.
00:38:18.200 So they'll
00:38:18.740 go and help
00:38:19.920 people clear
00:38:21.040 off the
00:38:22.060 previous years
00:38:22.920 of taxes and
00:38:24.880 declarations.
00:38:26.300 And it might
00:38:27.860 seem like an
00:38:28.940 odd thing to
00:38:29.840 do, but it's
00:38:31.240 one of those
00:38:31.920 big bureaucratic
00:38:34.200 steps that
00:38:35.880 essentially means
00:38:37.220 that now the
00:38:38.460 slate is clear.
00:38:39.900 If you were to
00:38:40.780 poke your head
00:38:41.340 back up as a
00:38:42.160 citizen, find a
00:38:43.800 place to live,
00:38:44.700 find a place to
00:38:45.520 work, you're
00:38:47.180 not going to be
00:38:48.520 received by the
00:38:49.480 CRA as some
00:38:51.540 kind of an
00:38:51.980 alien with
00:38:52.680 miscreant with
00:38:54.340 problems to
00:38:55.680 address.
00:38:56.500 You're now
00:38:57.540 operating with a
00:38:58.660 clean slate.
00:38:59.600 And people
00:39:00.040 embrace these
00:39:01.180 opportunities.
00:39:02.500 And then you've
00:39:02.940 got an opportunity
00:39:03.820 to access
00:39:05.260 programs,
00:39:06.720 including funding,
00:39:08.280 refundable tax
00:39:09.120 credits,
00:39:10.100 payments.
00:39:10.340 Exactly, exactly,
00:39:11.900 exactly.
00:39:12.560 All of these
00:39:13.320 things that
00:39:14.280 despair and
00:39:15.740 mental illness
00:39:16.480 and addiction
00:39:17.280 lead us away
00:39:19.340 from in terms
00:39:20.040 of our
00:39:20.340 attention and
00:39:21.460 our loss of
00:39:22.500 attention just
00:39:23.220 further compounds
00:39:24.260 our own
00:39:25.100 problems and we
00:39:26.020 enter proverbial
00:39:27.380 vicious cycles.
00:39:29.340 We haven't
00:39:29.840 talked much
00:39:30.480 about safer
00:39:31.000 supply.
00:39:31.520 It's been
00:39:31.740 mentioned, but
00:39:33.020 given that
00:39:33.680 British Columbia
00:39:34.460 is further down
00:39:35.560 this road than
00:39:36.600 other parts of
00:39:37.460 the country, I
00:39:38.760 do want to ask
00:39:39.340 about it because
00:39:39.920 the federal
00:39:40.340 government is
00:39:41.420 all in on
00:39:43.320 safer supply.
00:39:44.960 They have made
00:39:46.140 it clear that
00:39:46.780 they're going to
00:39:47.420 push this
00:39:47.860 forward.
00:39:49.120 There is a
00:39:50.160 new site that's
00:39:51.340 been identified by
00:39:52.340 the federal
00:39:52.740 government for a
00:39:53.880 so-called safer
00:39:54.480 supply location
00:39:56.060 in Brampton,
00:39:57.440 just west of
00:39:58.580 Toronto, that's
00:39:59.720 causing an awful
00:40:00.460 lot of anxiety
00:40:02.300 in the community.
00:40:04.740 Doesn't seem to
00:40:05.680 matter to the
00:40:06.500 local Liberal
00:40:07.080 MP or
00:40:08.000 other
00:40:09.280 people that
00:40:10.760 are pushing
00:40:11.120 this.
00:40:12.220 What's BC's
00:40:13.300 experience been?
00:40:14.540 Because when I
00:40:15.740 write about it,
00:40:16.440 when colleagues
00:40:17.740 like Adam
00:40:18.220 Zivo write
00:40:18.720 about it,
00:40:19.120 we're told,
00:40:19.760 no, this isn't
00:40:20.900 true, everything's
00:40:21.560 fine.
00:40:22.640 And then you
00:40:23.000 get the
00:40:24.480 deputy police
00:40:25.580 chief of
00:40:25.980 Vancouver going
00:40:26.820 before the
00:40:28.320 House of Commons
00:40:28.920 and saying,
00:40:29.560 well, actually
00:40:30.000 most of the
00:40:30.720 pills we're
00:40:31.180 getting are
00:40:31.760 diverted safe
00:40:32.440 supply.
00:40:32.840 It's a very
00:40:37.840 dangerous set of
00:40:39.220 policies.
00:40:40.100 It should
00:40:42.080 strike everyone
00:40:44.200 as sound
00:40:47.320 common sense
00:40:48.220 that drugs
00:40:50.380 such as
00:40:51.500 opioids,
00:40:53.500 crystal meth,
00:40:55.180 whether used
00:40:56.460 alone or in
00:40:57.420 combination,
00:40:58.720 are harmful to
00:41:00.520 human health.
00:41:02.000 This is
00:41:02.920 pretty, you
00:41:04.200 know, abundantly
00:41:06.200 established
00:41:06.980 scientifically.
00:41:08.360 The physiological
00:41:09.180 aspects of
00:41:12.900 drug-related
00:41:13.760 harms are well
00:41:14.760 understood.
00:41:15.680 The psychological
00:41:16.560 and social
00:41:17.760 harms are well
00:41:18.880 understood.
00:41:20.420 So this is
00:41:21.060 far from
00:41:22.180 benign.
00:41:23.020 This doesn't
00:41:26.720 really have
00:41:27.300 much to do
00:41:27.860 with science.
00:41:28.760 The advocacy
00:41:29.400 for so-called
00:41:30.260 safe supply
00:41:31.000 doesn't have
00:41:31.520 much to do
00:41:31.960 with science.
00:41:32.560 It has to
00:41:33.080 do with
00:41:33.640 other things
00:41:34.520 including
00:41:35.660 financial
00:41:37.400 opportunities.
00:41:38.820 When we
00:41:39.300 wrote a
00:41:39.720 review,
00:41:40.720 we've been
00:41:42.180 asked by many
00:41:42.700 governments to
00:41:43.260 write reviews
00:41:43.760 over the
00:41:44.180 years,
00:41:45.360 and one
00:41:46.580 we wrote
00:41:47.100 for Alberta's
00:41:48.200 legislature,
00:41:49.140 or I should
00:41:49.820 say Alberta's
00:41:50.320 Ministry of
00:41:50.680 Health,
00:41:51.520 was a
00:41:52.940 we pointed
00:41:54.980 out that
00:41:55.400 there were
00:41:55.780 some key
00:41:56.360 gaps in
00:41:57.420 knowledge
00:41:57.960 related to
00:41:58.960 what would
00:41:59.320 happen,
00:41:59.820 and there
00:42:00.320 were some
00:42:00.740 key gaps in
00:42:01.540 terms of
00:42:02.100 the implications
00:42:02.800 for the
00:42:03.220 future.
00:42:03.880 What's the
00:42:04.200 exit plan?
00:42:05.360 How much
00:42:05.760 is it going
00:42:06.060 to cost
00:42:06.480 per person
00:42:07.140 per year?
00:42:07.880 So we can
00:42:08.300 look at
00:42:08.840 this investment
00:42:09.640 versus
00:42:10.020 alternatives that
00:42:10.900 have already
00:42:11.360 been well
00:42:11.860 costed and
00:42:12.520 shown to be
00:42:13.140 effective.
00:42:14.300 None of
00:42:14.800 these questions
00:42:15.300 have been
00:42:15.680 answered.
00:42:16.800 So we put
00:42:17.300 this review
00:42:18.100 out there,
00:42:18.980 and within
00:42:19.740 a week,
00:42:21.920 safe supply
00:42:22.560 advocates,
00:42:23.540 not claiming
00:42:24.520 to be
00:42:24.920 safe supply
00:42:25.380 advocates,
00:42:25.900 not divulging
00:42:26.680 that they
00:42:27.080 received funding
00:42:28.180 related to
00:42:28.880 safe supply,
00:42:29.940 had written
00:42:30.700 an open
00:42:31.280 letter saying
00:42:32.960 no one
00:42:33.700 should read
00:42:34.160 this review
00:42:34.860 because it's
00:42:35.640 low quality.
00:42:37.280 They convened
00:42:38.500 press conferences
00:42:39.420 and media,
00:42:41.140 mainstream media,
00:42:42.560 ate it up.
00:42:44.060 Summers et al
00:42:44.980 write low
00:42:45.900 quality review,
00:42:47.840 nobody should
00:42:48.420 read it.
00:42:49.200 And they
00:42:49.760 didn't.
00:42:50.120 They didn't
00:42:51.120 report on
00:42:51.800 it in their
00:42:52.580 coverage.
00:42:53.540 They just
00:42:53.820 said,
00:42:54.700 well,
00:42:55.000 people are
00:42:56.620 upset.
00:42:58.020 That's news.
00:42:59.360 They didn't
00:42:59.860 point out that
00:43:00.700 the people who
00:43:01.460 were upset
00:43:02.160 are funded
00:43:03.100 to advocate
00:43:04.060 for safe
00:43:04.660 supply.
00:43:06.260 We were
00:43:06.960 further
00:43:07.360 attacked,
00:43:07.960 the same
00:43:08.360 organization,
00:43:09.220 this was
00:43:09.740 centrally
00:43:10.240 organized by
00:43:10.900 the BC
00:43:11.280 Center for
00:43:11.900 Substance
00:43:12.320 Use.
00:43:13.080 They took
00:43:13.600 the extraordinary
00:43:14.540 step of
00:43:15.480 beginning to
00:43:16.120 contact
00:43:16.920 conference
00:43:17.820 organizers,
00:43:18.380 where I
00:43:18.900 was scheduled
00:43:19.460 keynote speaker,
00:43:21.320 urging them
00:43:22.020 to uninvite
00:43:22.880 me.
00:43:23.840 Oh,
00:43:24.020 man.
00:43:24.840 So,
00:43:25.860 at that
00:43:26.740 point,
00:43:27.380 I knew
00:43:27.960 crystal clear
00:43:29.000 this has
00:43:29.900 nothing to
00:43:30.660 do with
00:43:31.140 science or
00:43:32.320 scholarly
00:43:32.980 debate.
00:43:34.100 This is
00:43:34.560 irrational.
00:43:36.100 Why would
00:43:37.080 somebody be
00:43:37.740 behaving so
00:43:38.580 irrationally?
00:43:39.880 And it's
00:43:40.180 because they've
00:43:41.040 got something
00:43:41.640 to hide.
00:43:42.380 I'm sure
00:43:45.800 you've
00:43:46.060 watched some
00:43:46.480 of the
00:43:46.840 movies or
00:43:47.480 documentaries
00:43:47.960 about the
00:43:48.840 opioid crisis
00:43:49.660 in the
00:43:50.040 states and
00:43:51.140 Big Pharma's
00:43:51.920 role in
00:43:52.360 that.
00:43:53.540 And what
00:43:53.860 is shocking
00:43:54.360 to me is
00:43:55.680 that we've
00:43:56.180 got our
00:43:56.620 governments
00:43:57.920 all suing
00:43:58.860 Big Pharma.
00:44:00.580 They settled
00:44:01.060 with Purdue
00:44:01.580 a little while
00:44:02.100 ago.
00:44:03.140 And then we
00:44:04.060 turned around
00:44:04.440 and we gave
00:44:04.840 them contracts
00:44:05.580 to provide
00:44:07.180 the same
00:44:07.560 drugs.
00:44:09.180 Yeah.
00:44:09.300 We've
00:44:11.280 turned from
00:44:11.880 labeling them
00:44:13.380 as pushers
00:44:14.040 and evil
00:44:15.040 to becoming
00:44:16.400 their pusher
00:44:17.220 through our
00:44:17.960 government.
00:44:19.560 Identification
00:44:20.280 with the
00:44:20.760 aggressor.
00:44:21.720 Yeah.
00:44:22.360 As you
00:44:23.220 said earlier
00:44:23.740 with cannabis,
00:44:25.180 many people
00:44:25.880 in positions
00:44:26.900 of authority,
00:44:27.740 especially on
00:44:28.340 the elected
00:44:28.840 side,
00:44:29.740 are looking
00:44:31.320 for their
00:44:31.700 next gig.
00:44:32.860 What's
00:44:33.620 going to
00:44:33.840 happen after
00:44:34.680 I leave
00:44:35.300 office?
00:44:36.520 And we
00:44:37.100 can speculate,
00:44:38.560 but the
00:44:39.240 pharmaceutical
00:44:39.760 industry is
00:44:41.460 a proven
00:44:43.040 sector that
00:44:46.440 legislators and
00:44:47.720 regulators orient
00:44:48.860 to.
00:44:49.200 When the
00:44:49.980 Stanford-Lancet
00:44:50.760 Commission undertook
00:44:52.300 their detailed
00:44:53.180 analysis of the
00:44:54.300 opioid crisis in
00:44:55.380 North America,
00:44:56.080 they include
00:44:56.460 Canada and
00:44:57.180 the U.S.,
00:44:58.340 they identified
00:44:59.440 chiefly regulatory
00:45:01.700 failures as
00:45:03.580 contributing factors.
00:45:04.800 And what they
00:45:05.140 meant was people
00:45:06.600 moving from
00:45:07.400 positions in
00:45:08.140 organizations like
00:45:09.040 the FDA back
00:45:11.060 into industry or
00:45:12.340 the other way
00:45:12.880 around or into
00:45:14.220 positions in
00:45:14.960 academic centers,
00:45:16.080 often medical
00:45:16.740 programs.
00:45:18.100 And this
00:45:18.500 fluidity was
00:45:20.260 part of the
00:45:21.000 problem,
00:45:21.600 part of what
00:45:22.060 gave, because it
00:45:22.760 incentivizes people
00:45:23.920 to be thinking,
00:45:24.700 well, you know,
00:45:25.500 I'm low in the
00:45:26.280 polls now, but
00:45:28.020 if I can grit my
00:45:29.160 teeth and get to
00:45:30.180 the end of my
00:45:30.740 mandate, I'll
00:45:32.180 likely have an
00:45:33.360 opportunity to
00:45:34.300 pursue work in
00:45:35.840 this area or
00:45:36.680 that area.
00:45:38.160 And unfortunately,
00:45:39.720 that appears to
00:45:40.740 be part of
00:45:41.500 what's happening
00:45:42.080 here.
00:45:44.000 Unbelievable.
00:45:45.040 So as a
00:45:46.160 clinical psychologist,
00:45:47.460 I'm sure you've
00:45:48.760 dealt with people
00:45:49.760 who have
00:45:50.360 addictions, not
00:45:51.640 people who are
00:45:52.680 living on the
00:45:53.380 street, living
00:45:53.920 rough, but
00:45:55.360 people who
00:45:56.180 otherwise seem
00:45:57.300 to have their
00:45:57.760 life together.
00:45:59.780 What, in your
00:46:01.220 experience, is
00:46:01.900 there something
00:46:02.300 that works with
00:46:03.020 them in
00:46:03.800 overcoming their
00:46:04.620 addiction?
00:46:05.900 Yeah.
00:46:06.360 I mean, I'm
00:46:07.620 surrounded in my
00:46:10.040 world by people
00:46:11.240 who have
00:46:11.540 experienced
00:46:12.040 addictions and
00:46:12.820 people who are
00:46:13.500 experiencing
00:46:13.980 addictions, and
00:46:15.420 including a lot
00:46:16.980 of work with
00:46:17.460 people who go
00:46:18.180 through court.
00:46:20.780 And part of our
00:46:22.360 work has included
00:46:23.100 the drug treatment
00:46:24.140 court, the
00:46:25.720 community court
00:46:26.440 that operates in
00:46:27.620 the downtown east
00:46:28.720 side of Vancouver,
00:46:29.820 and also voluntary
00:46:30.960 programs.
00:46:31.940 So along the
00:46:32.740 lines of what I
00:46:33.120 was mentioning
00:46:33.520 earlier among
00:46:34.540 people who are
00:46:35.700 living homeless.
00:46:37.740 And the things
00:46:39.520 that work overall
00:46:41.340 are opportunities
00:46:43.380 to find and
00:46:45.140 establish and
00:46:46.460 nurture meaning.
00:46:48.560 People, when
00:46:50.260 we're experiencing
00:46:51.040 addictions, one
00:46:52.780 of the most
00:46:54.460 frustrating, agonizing
00:46:58.120 components is the
00:46:59.300 experience of loss
00:47:00.360 of control, an
00:47:01.360 inability to
00:47:02.500 control something
00:47:04.180 that we know is
00:47:05.420 harmful to us and
00:47:06.560 often harmful to
00:47:07.460 other people who
00:47:08.460 we care for.
00:47:10.280 And the thing
00:47:12.760 that makes the
00:47:13.300 biggest difference
00:47:14.120 for many people
00:47:15.580 are the elements,
00:47:19.400 the changes that
00:47:20.120 occur that require
00:47:21.720 often other people.
00:47:23.140 They require us to
00:47:24.140 make choices, but
00:47:25.160 they also, you
00:47:26.140 know, if you're
00:47:26.560 living homeless and
00:47:28.240 you don't have
00:47:28.860 opportunities for
00:47:30.740 support from people
00:47:31.680 around you, you
00:47:33.160 are completely
00:47:34.620 dependent on
00:47:36.680 someone, ideally,
00:47:38.880 somebody representing
00:47:40.020 society via our
00:47:41.820 government, entering
00:47:43.360 your world and
00:47:44.500 offering you things
00:47:45.840 that are completely
00:47:47.820 reasonable, in fact,
00:47:49.220 that we say people
00:47:50.180 are entitled to,
00:47:51.420 like safe, decent
00:47:52.880 housing, like food
00:47:54.540 security, like
00:47:55.780 opportunities for
00:47:56.640 employment.
00:47:58.520 And when we
00:47:59.260 provide those
00:48:00.160 opportunities to
00:48:00.880 people, basic
00:48:02.640 opportunities, well,
00:48:04.860 less and less basic,
00:48:07.640 less and less
00:48:08.200 guaranteed, but we've
00:48:10.040 shown that it is
00:48:11.140 abundantly possible
00:48:12.440 to reach out to
00:48:13.940 people and provide
00:48:15.060 those opportunities
00:48:15.940 and they will
00:48:17.700 flourish.
00:48:19.100 They will, it may
00:48:19.960 take time, but we
00:48:21.020 will see improvements
00:48:21.940 right away.
00:48:22.560 We saw in the
00:48:23.920 first year of our
00:48:24.960 randomized trials
00:48:25.920 that compared to
00:48:27.100 people who received
00:48:28.540 usual services in
00:48:29.760 Vancouver, the
00:48:31.100 people who we
00:48:31.840 began assisting in
00:48:33.420 one year had 71%
00:48:35.620 fewer offenses than
00:48:37.500 the people that were
00:48:38.400 receiving, you know,
00:48:39.460 what's currently
00:48:40.280 available.
00:48:41.140 71% fewer, less
00:48:42.560 crime, 45% fewer
00:48:44.540 medical emergencies,
00:48:45.420 and those things
00:48:46.740 contribute also to
00:48:48.280 the bottom line
00:48:49.100 financially, which
00:48:50.820 helps illustrate that
00:48:52.320 intervening, the
00:48:53.340 financial cost of
00:48:54.880 intervening, is about
00:48:56.280 the same as the
00:48:57.100 cost of essentially
00:48:58.080 leaving people
00:48:58.860 homeless.
00:49:00.080 So we've run out of
00:49:01.140 good reasons, good
00:49:02.360 empirical reasons,
00:49:03.840 good humanitarian
00:49:05.440 reasons to sustain
00:49:07.460 the status quo.
00:49:08.820 I hope some of the
00:49:09.880 silver lining in this
00:49:10.940 really dark storm that
00:49:12.120 we're in is that we
00:49:13.480 have an immense amount
00:49:15.340 of information available
00:49:16.960 to guide us.
00:49:18.280 We talked about
00:49:18.920 Portugal.
00:49:19.660 We can also talk
00:49:20.680 about evidence shown
00:49:22.160 in Canadian regions
00:49:23.700 that the same kinds
00:49:25.180 of transformations are
00:49:26.120 possible, but it
00:49:27.000 requires us to spend
00:49:28.600 differently.
00:49:30.620 Well, it sounds like
00:49:31.440 spending on hope is
00:49:32.560 better than spending on
00:49:33.920 despair.
00:49:34.500 Well, well put.
00:49:35.540 Julian, thanks so much
00:49:36.380 for the time today.
00:49:37.320 My pleasure, Brian.
00:49:38.120 Great talking to you.
00:49:39.440 Full Comment is a
00:49:40.600 post-media podcast.
00:49:41.720 My name's Brian Lilly,
00:49:42.660 your host.
00:49:43.280 This episode was
00:49:44.260 produced by Andre
00:49:45.020 Pru with theme music
00:49:46.040 by Bryce Hall.
00:49:47.180 Kevin Libin is the
00:49:48.240 executive producer.
00:49:49.520 Remember, you can
00:49:50.040 subscribe and please
00:49:51.120 do subscribe to Full
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00:50:01.540 Thanks for listening.
00:50:02.400 Until next time, I'm
00:50:03.420 Brian Lilly.