Full Comment - The ’60s left-wing activist turned Canadian housing-market multimillionaire

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00:01:16.420 Hi, I'm Anthony Fury.

00:01:17.700 Welcome to the latest episode of Full Comment.

00:01:19.620 I am so looking forward to this conversation with our next guest, but I'll confess that

00:01:23.300 I've struggled with how to properly introduce a man such as Michael O'Dayne, who is perhaps

00:01:27.980 one of the most fascinating people in Canada.

00:01:29.720 How do I begin?

00:01:31.720 We can talk about how in 1961 he was jailed for several months in Mississippi for sitting

00:01:36.460 in a blacks-only section of a restaurant in protest against racial segregation laws.

00:01:41.420 Or maybe about how he once found himself wedged at the same table between Charlie Chaplin

00:01:45.220 and James Bond creator Ian Fleming at the same hotel in Jamaica.

00:01:50.060 Or the time he fed the sick alongside Mother Teresa. 0.55

00:01:52.880 Or it's also quite an interesting story to learn that Tommy Douglas considered him too

00:01:56.160 radical at the founding convention of the NDP and told him to put away that adoring photo

00:02:00.820 of Fidel Castro.

00:02:02.360 And I, of course, shouldn't leave out the part where he then goes on to create Polygon

00:02:05.680 Homes, one of British Columbia's largest home builders, and was so successful at it such

00:02:10.280 that the other month he was able to donate $100 million to the Vancouver Art Gallery.

00:02:15.940 Michael O'Dayne has recently released his memoir, One Man in His Time, and he joins us now

00:02:20.800 to discuss his life, his work, and offer us some insights on the big themes of our

00:02:26.020 time.

00:02:26.580 Mr. O'Dayne, welcome to the program.

00:02:27.920 Thank you for joining us.

00:02:29.480 Thank you.

00:02:30.460 How are you today?

00:02:32.240 I'm great.

00:02:33.240 I'm really enjoying the winter conditions here in Vancouver and just in my office and

00:02:42.900 very thankful to be in my office at my age and got lots of things to do.

00:02:49.260 I know you've written in the book many times, you've said people approach you and say,

00:02:53.540 how did you go from A to Z?

00:02:55.380 How did this life trajectory occur?

00:02:57.700 And when you hear introductions such as the one that I just gave, what are you thinking

00:03:02.540 when people summarize your life?

00:03:06.100 Well, you mentioned that you found my life somewhat fascinating.

00:03:13.100 And, of course, I don't really regard it as that.

00:03:18.480 I, in many cases, I had no plan.

00:03:24.600 And I often I stumbled into situations.

00:03:30.160 And that's been what's happened in my life.

00:03:38.340 And it's I've been very fortunate and to have met a lot of interesting people and tried

00:03:47.740 by hand at a good many different things in life, some of which have worked out much better than others.

00:03:59.000 So, as I say, it's it's it's just been a I'm very thankful for what the world and the cards that Lady Luck has dealt me.

00:04:13.440 You had a period in your life where every major life decision you made, you would not make it

00:04:18.360 until you flew to Thailand to consult with a Buddhist monk who resided in a small town.

00:04:23.980 How did you get into that trend?

00:04:25.400 Tell us about that.

00:04:27.040 Well, again, it was wasn't a planned thing.

00:04:30.140 It just happened one day.

00:04:31.340 But I agreed to go along with someone who wanted their fortune told by the abbot of this small temple called Wat Poyai.

00:04:50.120 And it it I was sort of called forward.

00:04:55.700 I was only there to watch.

00:04:57.200 I wasn't really interested in any hocus pocus.

00:05:00.500 But what happened, I was called forward.

00:05:05.100 And I guess he casted my horoscope using the Chinese way of looking things. 0.81

00:05:11.640 And he looked at my hands and he looked behind my ear for some reason, this and that.

00:05:16.920 Benny wrote a bunch of things in Thai, which I had translated later, because although I developed some familiarity with speaking Thai, I never developed any ability to read it.

00:05:35.920 And so he forecast a few things for me and just so happened that when we visited him and over the space of a few years, pretty well, everything he told me has worked out and come true.

00:05:55.860 So he's no longer around at the moment, but he's passed on to the next stage in life as Buddhists believe.

00:06:12.280 But he did play a role in my life.

00:06:16.380 I followed his decisions and and they haven't.

00:06:20.820 I think it's been quite fortunate in that respect.

00:06:27.280 The major anecdotes in your life take you to various parts of the world, including in Mississippi, where you were the guest of their jail system for several months for protesting segregation laws.

00:06:38.900 Tell us, tell us what inspired you to do that and what happened.

00:06:43.000 Oh, I should correct you and say it was several weeks that I was in the Mississippi State Penetraintry, not several months, but I did experience their hospitality and their cuisine and that sort of thing and saw some pretty rugged things happening there.

00:07:07.060 But I was actually, again, I sort of fell into the situation because I was doing some research work for my sociology course in Memphis, Tennessee.

00:07:21.540 I would suggest that I could go there and do some things because I was ill when the exam for the course was held.

00:07:33.660 And so if I wanted to pass, I had to go do something.

00:07:36.960 And so I took a bus to Memphis, Tennessee for about a week.

00:07:42.480 I talked to people there and did some social research.

00:07:48.640 And then I heard what was going on in the freedom riots at the time.

00:07:53.840 And so I thought, well, I'll test the U.S. interstate bus system, which had been apparently under the aegis of Attorney General Robert Kennedy had been desegregated.

00:08:12.640 But I tested it as far as Jackson, Mississippi, and I certainly found that Jackson, Mississippi had not been desegregated when I went to try to have my dinner at the rest stop in the bus station.

00:08:27.180 And that's when I was arrested and charged with a breach of the peace.

00:08:32.940 And that's in jail.

00:08:34.480 That's when I met a lot of the other so-called freedom writers and had quite an interesting experience.

00:08:42.640 So hearing your stories about that decades ago brings to mind recent protests for racial justice, recent concerns, discussions that people have had over these issues.

00:08:52.940 Looking back at what happened decades ago, looking at the conversations we have today, what do you think about the current debates and passions around these issues?

00:09:02.860 Well, I'm not too close to it at the moment.

00:09:06.980 But I did go back with my daughter to, I think it was the 40th anniversary of the Freedom Rides.

00:09:16.240 I went back to Jackson and I was, you know, pleased to see that the mayor of the city and I think even the governor of the state,

00:09:29.420 definitely the mayor of the city was black, and we were very much entertained by the Afro-American community down there.

00:09:38.520 But, and that was, you know, a lot of people say they remembered me from jail.

00:09:46.680 I must say I didn't remember a lot of them, but they came up and said they remembered me.

00:09:51.780 But, because I guess someone was a bit of an oddball, and I wasn't the only Canadian.

00:09:56.320 But I think that things have definitely changed at that time, at the time of, we were all inspired by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

00:10:09.580 And it was very much a movement at that time of both black and white people together, black and white together.

00:10:19.960 That was, say, what Martin Luther King would often say.

00:10:26.040 But today it's become more of a, the black lives matter.

00:10:32.800 I think it's, the thrust of it is carried by the Afro-American community, and that's, so it's somewhat different.

00:10:44.640 And, but I just, I don't have any comment on that other than I do notice the difference.

00:10:54.340 And, it's quite interesting to read about your experiences participating in the founding of the NDP, showing up at their initial convention, and finding yourself on the more radical end of the spectrum.

00:11:08.100 And, of course, there were times in the 60s and 70s where the NDP was much more radical than it is today in terms of having far more aggressive socialist and even communist leanings.

00:11:17.100 But, apparently, you were almost a bit too much for Tommy Douglas' liking, I understand.

00:11:21.860 I, I'm not sure about that, but we had a great deal of respect for the former premier of Saskatchewan, and he may have been still premier at that time, I can't recall.

00:11:38.620 But, but, but I, I think it was only over one incident where I had, I guess the table I was sitting at of young, young activists had put up a, a picture of, I think it was, yeah, it was Fidel Castro.

00:11:55.360 And, and, and we were asked to take it down, and then I, I, I, later I was personally asked by Tommy Douglas to, he said it wouldn't be a good idea to, to, to, he didn't want the NDP cast in that kind of light.

00:12:14.620 It was, they were trying to, they were trying to move to the center, it was, they, they originally called themselves before the convention, the new party, and then it became the new democratic party convention.

00:12:26.300 And, and, and, and so, and that was, and I, I'd never really been a, I wasn't far, I don't think I was far left, because I'd never, most cases, I'd never been a member of the CCF.

00:12:40.140 That was the former name of the party that evolved into the NDP, but I, I met my, my first wife at that convention, and she, she was lodged in the same house that, that we were when we went to the convention, and I think that was 1961, if I recall.

00:12:59.520 One of the things you talk about several times in your book, that led to your transition, I don't want to say away from the activism, but I guess towards what made you become a home builder, and, and working on various business projects, was what you say is the difference between being interested in ideas, and being interested in people.

00:13:22.880 I'm not sure I've ever heard it described that way before. Tell me more what you mean by that.

00:13:27.500 I'm not sure whether that applies to many people, but on reflection, I certainly would think it applies to me, because in many ways, I was converted to, to a socialist line of thinking, more intellectually, and through the books I read,

00:13:57.080 and, and, and, and that sort of thing, and, and, and I, I think, at that stage, being young, I was not very tolerant of people.

00:14:08.760 I, I, I didn't really know how to work with people, or, or, or, let alone manage, manage them very well, and, so, you know, we were very interested in heady ideas, you know, we were very much,

00:14:24.760 in the, in the, the, the ban, the ban, the ban, the ban, the ban, the ban, the ban movement, I was very much involved in that, and very much in civil liberties, and social justice, and,

00:14:35.260 all that, and we, we saw it a little bit as, I think, abstract ideas, based on our, our study of history, in my case, a pretty good study of the,

00:14:48.820 of the, of the French Revolution, and, and, and, and, and to a lesser extent, I was very much interested in the Cuban Revolution, as the, you'll find out in the book, and, and,

00:15:00.820 and, but, but, I, I, I think it was, I, I didn't really understand that, whatever you're engaged in, in life, you, you need to really be involved with people,

00:15:17.920 and, and, and, and, and, and, and be sensitive about the, that you're dealing with, with human beings, and not just,

00:15:26.820 metaphysical ideas, and, and, so, I, I think, over time, I've come more, more, I've given a lot more recognition to the role of people, and trying to understand

00:15:44.920 where people are coming from, and when you're creating social change, to be sensitive about its impact on, on people, and, and, and that, that kind of thing, if that makes any sense, what I'm saying.

00:16:01.880 It does, and it's interesting that it feeds into another dichotomy in your, in your career, in your life, which is moving from working in housing,

00:16:11.360 in a public sector, not-for-profit capacity, with the CMHC federally, you did work in BC, you did work in Ontario, and then becoming a private developer,

00:16:21.200 and you're changing views on, on the creation of social housing, how it can best be done, how it can be done in a way that, that serves people the best. Tell us about that.

00:16:32.820 Well, I, I, I, when I was younger, I, I think I, I really concentrated on the, the, the idea that home ownership was a, a form of theft, and, and, and that we, we would be better to have our housing stock owned, either publicly, or by, by cooperatives, and, and, and,

00:17:02.800 So, I, I, I, I felt that would be a, a fairer way to allocate the, the housing stock, but, over time, I, I started to recognize the, the, the role of home ownership, and how, how, how that is important in, in, in Canada,

00:17:25.060 and, of course, during, during that time, when I was getting involved in housing, it's the, sort of, start of condominiums, we, we didn't really have any condominiums, to speak of in Canada, until the early 1970s, and then we, we saw that, we, we learned that,

00:17:44.120 you could really split up apartment buildings into townhouse communities into small strata lots that people could, could invest in, and, and own individually, and so, so, that was a, that was a change, but I was pretty extreme on my view of,

00:18:10.020 of, of home ownership, to the point that, the first two homes I owned, one was in Don Mills in Toronto, and another in Ottawa, I refused to, I did buy them, but, when I sold them, I refused to use a, a real estate agent, and also,

00:18:28.420 I refused to, I refused to take any profit, so, wow, they sold, they sold, they sold pretty quickly to neighbors, and, and, and, but the third home I, I owned in, in, in Vancouver,

00:18:44.060 I, I, I did take a profit from that, so I guess I was getting corrupted by the, by the late, late 1970s.

00:18:55.260 And, and, and of course, now's the opposite case, and as you know, you can't open a Toronto newspaper, or Vancouver One, or other cities in Canada, without the laments about rising house prices, people being priced out of the market, there's a lot of calls for, for perhaps government to do something, for there to be more affordable housing, we hear that phrase, a lot of affordable housing being constructed, I, I mean, speaking for myself, as a person who lives in downtown Toronto, with a young family, and, and children, I mean, I certainly see those pressures,

00:19:24.960 and my neighbors, and, and, and, you know, other people who are still looking to, to get a new home, what, what is the solution to this, what is, what is the next step, what should people be looking at, in terms of housing in Canada?

00:19:35.240 Well, I, I, I don't know that there is a magic solution, but the, the, certainly the, the Vancouver area situation, which I'm more familiar with, we really have a lack of housing supply.

00:19:54.100 We haven't been building, we haven't been building enough housing for all the people who want to come to live in the, in, in the Vancouver area, and I, I suspect it's the same in, in Toronto, where you've got massive, in, migration from other parts of Canada and abroad.

00:20:16.700 So, that's, that's, we, we do need more, more, more supply.

00:20:22.920 At the same time, I, I'm not entirely a, someone who believes the only solution is home ownership.

00:20:35.180 I think, I think, I think we do need a, a good rental housing component, and also, I, I continue to favor housing owned by cooperatives and, and non-profit societies.

00:20:50.300 And, in fact, our company Polygon, while most of what we build is for the home ownership sector, we, we also do, and I'm very happy to, to build housing for, for, for rent and also for non-profit societies for, and we work with those societies and also with First Nations,

00:21:20.300 groups to, to create a wider spectrum of, of housing opportunities.

00:21:30.360 When I found out my friend got a great deal on a wool coat from Winners, I started wondering, is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:21:39.020 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans, are those from Winners? 0.99

00:21:43.480 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings?

00:21:45.940 Did she pay full price?

00:21:47.280 Or that leather tote?

00:21:48.300 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:21:49.180 Or those knee-high boots?

00:21:50.980 That dress?

00:21:51.760 That jacket?

00:21:52.420 Those shoes?

00:21:53.440 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

00:21:56.380 Stop wondering.

00:21:57.680 Start winning.

00:21:58.600 Winners.

00:21:59.200 Find fabulous for less.

00:22:00.580 We had a very interesting episode on this program a number of months ago with a journalist, Sam Cooper from Global News.

00:22:08.380 He has a book out concerning money laundering and casinos in Vancouver, focusing predominantly on gangs from Asia and organized crime from there.

00:22:18.360 And there was some stuff on real estate and there was some stuff on real estate and there was some stuff on real estate and there's been much discussion about foreign purchases in Canadian real estate, particularly focused on B.C.

00:22:27.960 To what degree do you feel that is an issue?

00:22:29.480 To what degree do you feel that government remedies, I understand there's taxes on foreign purchases being introduced and perhaps ratcheted up.

00:22:38.160 What are your thoughts on that whole issue?

00:22:39.580 Well, I think generally the foreign buying, which was blamed for, a lot of people blamed for high housing prices, that really, I don't think there was, particularly in, generally speaking, I don't think you can just blame

00:23:05.280 it on foreign buyers. I mean, we are a very major, often we are the largest builder of multifamily housing in British Columbia, townhouses and apartments.

00:23:22.640 And I would say, and we have to track, and I would say only about one or two percent of them are what register as foreign nationals.

00:23:39.920 So it may have been more a couple of years ago, but even then it wasn't, it was certainly less than five percent.

00:23:49.820 As I say, certain neighborhoods may have experienced higher rates of buying, but, and there is a 20 percent tax on foreign buyers in British Columbia at the present time.

00:24:05.260 So, while this tax pertains, that has not slowed the growth of house prices and rents, unfortunately.

00:24:17.600 That hasn't done it.

00:24:18.840 Whether it's your travels around the world or your capacity as a home building, I know you've looked at macroeconomic issues.

00:24:26.120 You've taken a keen eye on the economy, what's going on around the world.

00:24:28.720 There's a lot of anxiety right now about the global economy for various reasons, not the least of which is, of course, the pandemic and all of the different supply chain fluctuations that have happened.

00:24:40.420 What are your thoughts on the future of the economy?

00:24:42.900 I can say as a father of young children, I know people of my generation are no longer saying that phrase that we believe our children will have a greater standard of life than we did, which is something that I know our parents and our grandchildren and our grandparents used to say.

00:24:58.500 But now it's not clear, but now it's not clear, we're nervous.

00:25:02.340 Well, that's sad to hear.

00:25:04.740 I'm not aware of that.

00:25:06.760 I think my grandchildren tend to be pretty optimistic about the future.

00:25:13.840 It may be a different future, a future which is more oriented to the environment and preserving the natural environment and those sorts of things because those priorities are very high amongst young people.

00:25:33.060 Well, the one thing I should say, I do very much believe in the virtue of economic growth.

00:25:42.600 I talk to some young people and they say, oh, that's economic growth is what the problem is.

00:25:51.660 And no, I don't agree at all.

00:25:54.800 When you measure economic growth, you're measuring not just goods, but you're also measuring services.

00:26:02.120 And I think there are, even if you think we have enough goods, and I'm not sure that everyone in Canada would agree that we do, but because we certainly don't have enough housing in parts of the country where people want to live.

00:26:17.860 But I think that there's a lot more service we need in terms of health services, care for children, daycare services, and care for the elderly.

00:26:34.020 And I see the service economy still has a long way to grow.

00:26:41.460 And so the other thing I favor economic growth is because I was taught by one of my professors, and I think he's probably right at the London School of Economics,

00:26:56.440 is that in a democratic society, if you want to achieve more equitable distribution of wealth,

00:27:08.800 that the way to do it is at the leading edge of the economy.

00:27:13.020 In other words, distributing, redistributing, or just plain distributing the growth in the GDP, whether it's whatever it is, 4%, 5%,

00:27:25.020 and biasing that growth towards people at the lower end of the scale.

00:27:32.020 And because if you're going to take it away, if you're thinking of taking it away, then getting from the groups of people in society,

00:27:45.980 particularly the middle class, feel they're already participating well, but then you're moving to more of a revolutionary situation,

00:27:56.840 which I think obviously is very unstable, and usually ends in some form of violence.

00:28:07.840 So I do favor economic growth, and I think that's the way to achieve more equality of opportunity in our country.

00:28:26.140 At the same time, I do have views about the super-rich, and I do share the view that it's not necessarily a good idea to have an economy

00:28:43.480 that allows people to build up dynasties that continue for several generations.

00:28:51.480 When you do that, you end up with often a class of young people who don't feel that they need to work

00:29:00.080 and just live off their grandparents' trusts and that sort of thing.

00:29:05.740 I don't believe in that either.

00:29:07.120 I think that it's fine for people to be able to keep what they, through their ingenuity or through their hard work they earn in their lifetime.

00:29:20.300 But I do have concerns about them pricing it down to generation after generation.

00:29:29.600 I don't think we need that in Canada.

00:29:31.220 We need ways to incentivize the people, I think, in their own lifetime to engage in philanthropic activities

00:29:43.920 to support those causes that interest them, whether it's universities or hospitals.

00:29:51.820 They do tremendously good work that is done in the charitable sector.

00:29:57.540 And I guess you are practicing what you preach, I know, because I mentioned your $100 million donation to the Vancouver Art Gallery.

00:30:04.880 So you have a lot of interest in philanthropic activities yourself.

00:30:09.000 Yes, I have.

00:30:11.680 It's become a great interest in my life.

00:30:14.960 And, you know, often I don't like to put my name on donations like that.

00:30:22.960 But they tell me that if you do use your name, it tends to more encourage other people to get involved and to think about their responsibility for their fellow citizens.

00:30:40.720 And we have a great interest.

00:30:47.340 And then when I say we, it's my family, both my wife and my children, grandchildren share the interest.

00:30:56.760 I've got to end on a gossipy note because I teased in the introduction your dinner with both Charlie Chaplin, Andy and Fleming at the same time in Kingston, Jamaica.

00:31:06.180 What was that like, hanging out with these two gentlemen and Charlie Chaplin?

00:31:09.920 I understand he wasn't always, sometimes in personal life, he could be a little bit sullen.

00:31:13.200 He didn't always act the role of the film guy.

00:31:16.800 Yes, I didn't exactly know who was coming to dinner that night.

00:31:20.420 I was staying at a resort in Ocherias on the north coast that my stepfather, what was involved in, I guess he represented the owners of the resort.

00:31:35.640 And so they organized a dinner party.

00:31:39.160 And I wasn't really briefed exactly.

00:31:40.780 I knew that Charlie Chaplin was coming, but I didn't know that Ian Fleming was coming.

00:31:48.460 And I'm not sure that, but my mother turned out to have known, have met Charlie Chaplin before on more than one occasion.

00:31:58.320 And she knew his wife of that period.

00:32:03.240 And also he often went to my grandfather's restaurant.

00:32:09.180 My grandfather had a restaurant in London in the 1920s or 30s when, particularly the 1920s, I think, Charlie Chaplin was becoming a very well-known film star.

00:32:24.040 And so there was an interest there.

00:32:27.480 And Ian Fleming, of course, I was amazed because I'd already read some of the James Bond novels.

00:32:37.060 So I was absolutely fascinated to meet him and then to be invited the next day to visit his house, which was along the coast somewhere.

00:32:49.760 And he explained where he showed us, where he wrote his novels, we saw the famous Olivetti typewriter he used.

00:33:02.580 And so I was most interested in that.

00:33:07.720 But I was, yeah, so that was an interesting dinner.

00:33:13.700 But I think probably I hardly said a word at the dinner.

00:33:18.320 I was kind of stunned and very shy at that time, certainly.

00:33:24.200 It's a remarkable anecdote.

00:33:25.400 And your book, One Man in His Time, is full of such really amazing stories about your travels and other remarkable things that you have done.

00:33:33.760 Michael O'Dayne, thank you very much for joining us today for the conversation.

00:33:37.140 We appreciate it.

00:33:38.300 It's a pleasure to talk to you.

00:33:39.640 Thank you.

00:33:40.640 Full Comment is a post-media podcast.

00:33:42.480 I'm Anthony Fury.

00:33:44.180 This episode was produced by Andre Proulx, with theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:33:48.160 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:33:50.640 You can subscribe to Full Comment on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, and Amazon Music.

00:33:55.660 You can listen through the app or your Alexa-enabled devices.

00:33:58.480 You can help us by giving us a rating or a review and by telling your friends about us.

00:34:02.280 Thanks for listening.

Full Comment - January 17, 2022

The ’60s left-wing activist turned Canadian housing-market multimillionaire

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