Full Comment - The activist class is conspicuously quiet about Iran

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00:00:59.800 The protests filling the streets of cities across Iran are now entering their fourth week.

00:01:07.560 We've seen protests in Iran before, the Green Revolution in 2009 that failed to bring about change.

00:01:12.780 The protests in 2022 after the killing of Masha Amini, the beautiful young woman,

00:01:18.220 killed for simply not wearing her hijab in the prescribed way. 0.60

00:01:22.820 The protests we're seeing now, though, they feel different.

00:01:25.760 Hello and welcome to the Full Comment Podcast. I'm Brian Lilly, your host, and this week, a look at Iran.

00:01:31.400 The country is facing what appears to be the strongest protest movement since the 1979 revolution

00:01:36.740 that chased the Shah from power and brought about the Islamic Republic.

00:01:41.040 Will this new movement bring about regime change? Will Iranians once again taste freedom?

00:01:46.320 We've got a pair of experts on the matter lined up for you, but first,

00:01:49.400 while reaching people on the ground in Iran is nearly impossible,

00:01:53.440 the regime can still communicate with anyone they want.

00:01:56.500 And last week, the country's foreign minister, Abbas Arachi,

00:01:59.980 was on Fox News for a lengthy interview with Brett Baer.

00:02:03.260 He denied the claims that thousands of people, perhaps as many as 12,000,

00:02:07.220 had been killed in the protests by the regime and said, well, the violence was all part of a foreign plot

00:02:13.800 pushed by Israel to draw the United States into attacking Iran.

00:02:17.580 I'd like to start about the situation on the ground.

00:02:22.200 There are reports, sir, that anywhere from 2,500 to more than 12,000 protesters in various cities

00:02:29.040 have been killed by the regime.

00:02:31.360 How many people have been killed?

00:02:33.480 Well, thank you, Brett, for having me.

00:02:35.860 Demonstrations started on 28th December.

00:02:38.440 Yes, for the economic shortcomings.

00:02:40.400 And for 10 days, it was peaceful.

00:02:42.180 And the government engaged with the protesters and with their leaders

00:02:46.700 and tried to, you know, to solve their problems.

00:02:51.140 Yes, for 10 days, it was peaceful, legal demonstrations and protests for economic shortcomings.

00:02:59.080 But after that 10 days, for three days, we had a completely different story.

00:03:05.360 A terrorist operation.

00:03:07.160 When terrorist elements led from outside, you know, entered these, you know, protests

00:03:13.520 and started to shoot, you know, police forces, police officers and security forces.

00:03:21.200 And there were terrorist cells.

00:03:25.500 They came in. 0.60

00:03:27.140 They used Daesh-style terrorist, you know, operations.

00:03:33.480 They got police officers, burned them alive.

00:03:38.080 They beheaded them.

00:03:39.120 And they started shooting at police officers and also to the people.

00:03:42.760 So, as a result, for three days, we had, in fact, fighting against terrorists and not, you

00:03:51.000 know, with the protesters.

00:03:53.120 It was completely a different story.

00:03:56.280 The reason I have to explain, and this is important, why they started to shoot at people,

00:04:02.280 for one reason.

00:04:03.420 They wanted to increase the number of deaths.

00:04:05.780 Why?

00:04:06.560 Because President Trump has said that if there are killings, he would intervene.

00:04:10.780 And they wanted to drag him into this conflict.

00:04:13.800 And that was exactly an Israeli plot. 0.87

00:04:16.620 As preposterous as that seems and sounds, well, that is the official line for the Islamic 1.00

00:04:21.440 Republic.

00:04:22.400 American President Donald Trump did warn Iran that the killing must stop and executions

00:04:27.280 couldn't happen or there would be consequences.

00:04:30.380 Iran's in big trouble.

00:04:32.240 It looks to me that the people are taking over certain cities that nobody thought were really

00:04:37.820 possible just a few weeks ago.

00:04:39.600 We're watching the situation very carefully.

00:04:42.780 I've made the statement very strongly that if they start killing people like they have

00:04:46.260 in the past, we will get involved.

00:04:48.480 We'll be hitting them very hard where it hurts.

00:04:51.300 And that doesn't mean boots on the ground, but it means hitting them very, very hard where

00:04:55.180 it hurts.

00:04:55.520 He even spoke about his team having been in contact with Iranian officials and receiving

00:04:59.800 assurances.

00:05:01.140 In the end, the execution of protesters like 26-year-old Irfan Soltani didn't happen.

00:05:06.820 And that's something the White House did take credit for.

00:05:09.700 What I will say with respect to Iran is that the president and his team have communicated

00:05:14.840 to the Iranian regime that if the killing continues, there will be grave consequences.

00:05:19.800 And the president received a message, as he revealed to all of you in the whole world

00:05:22.880 yesterday, that the killing and the executions will stop.

00:05:26.080 And the president understands today that 800 executions that were scheduled and supposed

00:05:32.180 to take place yesterday were halted.

00:05:35.260 And so the president and his team are closely monitoring this situation, and all options

00:05:40.440 remain on the table for the president.

00:05:42.180 So that's the backdrop from our perspective on what is happening.

00:05:46.440 But what's driving all this?

00:05:47.860 Does the West have a responsibility to step in and protect human rights, the so-called

00:05:52.600 responsibility to protect?

00:05:55.220 Payam Akran is a Canadian lawyer, a former UN prosecutor, and the chair in human rights

00:06:00.560 at Massey College in Toronto.

00:06:02.280 We caught up with him to get his perspective as an Iranian-Canadian.

00:06:07.040 Payam, I'm sure you, like many in the Iranian diaspora community, are concerned about family

00:06:13.400 and friends.

00:06:14.260 With the phone lines down, with the internet out, have you been in contact with anyone?

00:06:18.860 It has been very difficult to get news from inside the country.

00:06:25.140 There are some people who have access to Starlink, some people who convey news through even television

00:06:33.560 broadcasts, which are acting as an intermediary between people in the diaspora within the country.

00:06:39.480 But what is most important is the collective sense of shock and grief among Iranians in the diaspora

00:06:49.040 as they see the horrific scenes of violence, shoot-to-kill orders, the mounting body counts in the morgues of Iran.

00:07:03.520 So it's a very difficult time for the Iranian community here in Canada.

00:07:07.700 So we have various reports on the death count.

00:07:14.920 The foreign minister of Iran gave an interview to Fox News saying, oh, no, no, it's not in the thousands.

00:07:19.760 Maybe it's in the hundreds.

00:07:21.960 He clearly was trying to do an interview to send a message to the Trump administration via Fox News.

00:07:28.840 But do you have any good sense of what the death count would actually be from the protests that have

00:07:35.540 been rising up over the past several weeks?

00:07:39.320 Brian, it's very difficult, given the news blackout, to have any accurate numbers.

00:07:44.880 The Iranian foreign minister's suggestion that the killings are in the hundreds, I think, is most probably off by a very wide margin.

00:07:56.940 Another Iranian official had spoken about 2,000 people killed.

00:08:02.800 And other relatively authoritative sources estimate that some 12,000 people have been killed.

00:08:09.880 We have to bear in mind that there are millions of people on the streets and that even if you look at some of the images of the various morgues where people are sifting through body bags to identify their children,

00:08:29.780 one sees simply at those locations several hundred bodies.

00:08:35.600 And, of course, the government has every interest in trying to downplay the scale of the violence.

00:08:43.840 But we have clear evidence that soldiers are using Kalashnikov rifles with shoot-to-kill orders against significant numbers of protesters.

00:08:54.900 Help people understand what the protests are about.

00:08:59.000 This is different than the Green Revolution in 2009.

00:09:01.960 We've been told that it started out over the state of the economy, inflation, the currency.

00:09:11.440 What is it really about?

00:09:14.380 Because, again, in that interview with the Fox News and the Iranian foreign minister, she said it was about Mossad.

00:09:22.520 Mossad was the reason that things had turned violent.

00:09:25.500 And Mossad was behind the unrest.

00:09:27.400 Well, I think that is entirely unrealistic to say that Mossad is responsible for millions of people pouring out in the streets.

00:09:41.620 For thousands of young people, the victims are overwhelmingly under 30 years of age who are willing to stand in front of bullets and batons.

00:09:51.720 This has been a long time in the making.

00:09:55.000 Whatever the interests of foreign power, the Iranian people have had successive uprisings.

00:10:03.180 Just in 2002, we had the Women's Life Liberty movement once again in which millions came because of the murder of Mahsa Amini who failed to properly wear her hijab.

00:10:16.580 Prior to that, we had the Oban uprisings.

00:10:20.320 And the difference, perhaps, is that in 2009, the Green Movement was really about a contested election where the reformist candidate, Mir Hossein Moussabi, claimed to win.

00:10:31.800 His supporters came out in the streets and they were met with terrific violence.

00:10:36.700 And since then, more and more Iranians are giving up on the prospect of reform.

00:10:42.580 They're giving up, sadly, on the prospect of a peaceful transition because the circumstances are that they face not only oppression and denial of their basic human rights,

00:10:57.540 but they also now face economic catastrophe, which is in part the result of sanctions which have been imposed against Iran because of the nuclear program.

00:11:07.440 But in significant measure, because of the tremendous corruption in what is less a theocracy and more a kleptocracy,

00:11:19.280 massive amounts of oil wealth have ended up in the pockets of the economic mafia,

00:11:27.000 many of which live here in Canada with significant investments.

00:11:31.440 Massive amounts of funds have been given to Hezbollah and Hamas and the Houthis.

00:11:39.920 And one of the chants of the people on the streets is that we don't care about Hamas or Hezbollah.

00:11:46.080 We care about the people of Iran.

00:11:47.960 We want a government that is responsive to the needs of the people.

00:11:52.160 So I think the suggestion that, you know, Mossad or foreign agents are responsible for millions of people coming in the streets is not only inaccurate,

00:12:02.920 it is insulting at a time when thousands of people have been butchered simply for wanting a better life.

00:12:12.320 And it is a country that could provide a better life.

00:12:14.520 Your family left when you were a young boy.

00:12:19.700 You left before the Iranian Revolution.

00:12:22.060 But this was a country that at one point was quite prosperous.

00:12:25.660 And people, you know, the young people in the streets may not remember it, but others would.

00:12:30.440 This is a country that should be looking after its own people, not sending, you know, people with fortunes to Canada or the United States or to have more money going to the fighters in Hezbollah or the Houthis than are being spent on average people.

00:12:48.480 Let me ask you about something that we used to talk about a lot in international affairs and it seems to have faded away.

00:12:54.780 It relates in some measure to what President Donald Trump has talked about in saying that he wants to stop the killing and he will respond if the regime does executions or carries out violence in the streets.

00:13:08.080 And that's the responsibility to protect.

00:13:10.240 We're not hearing about that a lot anymore, whether it's Iran or any other country.

00:13:15.940 Does that still have cachet responsibility to protect R2P? 0.78

00:13:20.080 Brian, I was working with the United Nations in the 1990s as a prosecutor with the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia, for Rwanda.

00:13:32.300 And that was the time when R2P emerged in the context of the NATO intervention in Kosovo.

00:13:38.660 Since then, and I think the 1990s was a very promising period for international law, for human rights.

00:13:47.140 We now live in a very different space.

00:13:49.140 We've seen a very serious decline of the rule-oriented international order.

00:13:57.680 We've seen the rise of authoritarianism, not least in the West.

00:14:03.820 So now is really not a time when, as you put it, the idea of R2P has cachet.

00:14:10.500 And of course, ultimately, we also have to realize that military interventions are not necessarily the best way to allow people to achieve a transition to democracy.

00:14:27.180 And I think in the case of Iran, what is most important is to look at the millions that are pouring out in the streets, to listen to their chance, to listen to their wants, and to realize that, yes, R2P is important. 0.99

00:14:48.380 The world has to stand with the people, but at the same time, all efforts should be made to avoid large-scale violence.

00:14:58.700 That could make the circumstances even worse.

00:15:01.560 Well, then, let me leave you with this.

00:15:04.840 What can be done then?

00:15:07.440 What can be done?

00:15:08.760 What should be done?

00:15:09.640 And how do you feel about the musings of President Trump, which at this point, as we talk, have been up and down, threats, and they say, well, he seems to be holding off some of the executions.

00:15:22.580 That's enough.

00:15:24.100 Should Western countries intervene?

00:15:25.880 Should anyone intervene?

00:15:27.200 Or do you just make statements?

00:15:29.740 Well, I think that the Islamic Republic of Iran should be subject to pressures and isolation.

00:15:39.700 The people of Iran need to be empowered.

00:15:41.520 But I have no illusions that foreign powers have the best interests of the people of Iran at heart.

00:15:49.500 It is famously said that nations don't have friends, they have interests.

00:15:54.160 And it is conceivable that whether it's the Trump administration or any other government could strike a deal with the Islamic Republic that achieves their objectives while abandoning the people of Iran.

00:16:10.400 So, in that sense, I think we need to distinguish between the geopolitical rivalries and the pursuit of interests by foreign powers and the wishes of the people who are dying on the streets out of desperation, out of their desire for freedom.

00:16:33.580 Hopefully that freedom comes soon.

00:16:35.200 I am.

00:16:35.500 Thanks very much for your time.

00:16:37.020 When we come back, a conversation with Kaveh Sharrouz on the politics of the situation in Iran.

00:16:44.640 This is Tristan Hopper, the host of Canada Did What?

00:16:47.340 Where we unpack the biggest, weirdest, and wildest political moments in Canadian history you thought you knew and tell you what really happened.

00:16:55.660 Stick around at the end of the episode to hear a sample of one of our favorite episodes.

00:17:00.160 If you don't want to stick around, make sure you subscribe to Canada Did What? everywhere you get podcasts.

00:17:06.000 Kaveh Sharrouz is a lawyer in Toronto and a senior fellow at the Macdonald-Laurier Institute in Ottawa.

00:17:12.460 He previously was a senior policy advisor on human rights to Global Affairs Canada.

00:17:18.060 We've spoken to Kaveh about Iran in the past and caught up with him again in Toronto.

00:17:22.260 Kaveh, I'll ask you the question that I'm asking everyone with a connection to Iran.

00:17:26.440 Have you been able to contact people inside the country as you watch the protests rise, as you hear about the communications shut down, whether it be internet or phone lines?

00:17:38.180 Have you been in touch with anyone on the ground to find out if friends or family are safe, to find out what's actually going on?

00:17:45.200 I appreciate you asking.

00:17:47.560 I personally have been unlucky.

00:17:48.940 I have not been able to get through.

00:17:50.220 But thankfully, I know that my family is safe because other family members have managed for very short periods of time to connect with folks on the ground.

00:17:59.220 But what they're hearing, even though thankfully my own family is safe, what they're hearing is that the situation is pretty bad.

00:18:04.520 The regime has not held back its violence, and I think everyone's really frightened and very concerned.

00:18:13.060 And of course, there's many people in this country and outside of Iran who are afraid to speak up because of what it may mean for their families.

00:18:22.680 Speaking to a friend who just said, I don't want to say anything publicly because I'm worried about my mother, elderly mother still in Tehran.

00:18:32.060 I doubt that she's going to be on the streets, but you always do worry about the impact that any comment could have on family members.

00:18:40.680 Absolutely.

00:18:41.460 What you're dealing with is a regime that is totalitarian in outlook.

00:18:45.400 It's not enough that somebody leave the country so long as they speak out against this regime anywhere in the world.

00:18:53.120 The regime holds their family members hostage and goes after them.

00:18:56.860 It's certainly within the realm of possibility that somebody's elderly mother could be targeted by the regime because their son or grandchild or somebody spoke out even outside the country.

00:19:06.360 This is what the Iranian people are up against. 0.99

00:19:09.460 What is your understanding of the reason for the protest now?

00:19:13.360 There have been protests on and off over the years.

00:19:16.080 We have heard that it is economic issues, inflation is through the roof, there is an affordability crisis which seems to take on a different context in every country around the world these days, but it's much more acute in Iran.

00:19:31.060 We've also heard it's about water or the excuse from the foreign ministry, as I was mentioning earlier, that no, this is just Israel and Mossad fomenting dissent inside Iran.

00:19:43.200 What's your understanding of this uprising and these protests?

00:19:48.780 Yeah, with the exception of the, you know, this is fomented by Israel, which I think is rather silly. 0.97

00:19:53.600 I think it's really all of the above and all of them are deeply interconnected.

00:19:59.160 So you've got an economy that is in crisis.

00:20:03.820 It's cratering.

00:20:05.540 People simply cannot put food on the table.

00:20:08.840 They can't provide for their children.

00:20:10.280 Um, and they feel like they have nothing to lose at this point.

00:20:14.620 Um, but this economic crisis didn't come out of nowhere.

00:20:17.920 It came from a government that is deeply corrupt.

00:20:20.520 So corruption is an issue.

00:20:21.660 It comes from a government that doesn't know how to manage because, you know, anyone that has technocratic expertise has been pushed out.

00:20:27.940 They've escaped the country.

00:20:28.920 And now you've got people who are deeply incompetent trying to run the country.

00:20:33.080 Um, the country is under sanctions because, um, this regime is deeply, deeply anti-Semitic and wants to destroy Israel.

00:20:39.560 So it's been arming terrorists around the world.

00:20:42.440 Um, and so, you know, the country's economy is, is suffering.

00:20:46.000 Um, the economy is suffering because people don't have rights to speak.

00:20:49.620 Um, and on top of all this, as you said, this environmental crisis that's deepening where the, you know, largest cities in the country are simply running out of water.

00:20:57.780 You know, people literally can't put food on the table and they can't drink water because there's no water to drink.

00:21:01.720 How are they running out of water?

00:21:03.300 Explain that.

00:21:04.500 Well, this has been a problem a long time coming.

00:21:07.120 And there are environmental activists that have been sounding the alarm for a long time and, and not being listened to.

00:21:12.760 Um, the country's running out of water because the water resources have been terribly managed.

00:21:17.120 Um, dams have been built not because they are needed or they're not being built in the right places.

00:21:21.800 They're being built because the, um, revolutionary guards, aside from being a military force, are also an economic force.

00:21:27.560 And they make money off of these kinds of development projects.

00:21:32.400 Um, money that has been devoted to the environmental causes has been stolen,

00:21:36.280 and has been siphoned off and either gone to someone's bank account in Switzerland,

00:21:39.640 or they've been sent off to Hamas and Hezbollah.

00:21:42.740 Um, and so, and, and simply, as I was mentioning earlier, there's just gross incompetence.

00:21:47.920 And so no one has taken this problem seriously in, in Iran's government.

00:21:51.880 And suddenly they're faced with a crisis where the president has to go on television and say,

00:21:55.620 you know, we're thinking about moving the capital away from Tehran because Tehran is running out of water.

00:21:59.660 This is the level of incompetence, um, and corruption that Iranians are up against. 1.00

00:22:04.420 That is remarkable.

00:22:05.020 And prior to the, uh, Islamic revolution in 1979, didn't Israel work with Iran on water management

00:22:14.160 and sharing some of their secrets and success because water in the desert is always an issue.

00:22:20.960 Absolutely.

00:22:21.520 The Israelis have been, um, great at the water issue, frankly. 0.71

00:22:24.400 And, um, there was strong relations, um, technical, diplomatic, and otherwise, uh, between Israel and Iran.

00:22:31.160 It's not to say that they had no problems.

00:22:32.880 I mean, there were always diplomatic issues between two sovereign countries, but there was a great deal of cooperation.

00:22:38.300 Um, and that has disappeared.

00:22:40.300 And, um, you know, we've ended up with a regime that can chant death to Israel, but it doesn't provide, it can't provide the most basic needs, um, of its people. 0.84

00:22:49.860 It's devoted all of its energy rather than cooperating with Israelis who have the know-how. 1.00

00:22:54.400 It's devoted all its energies to fighting Israel and now is reaping the consequences of it. 0.94

00:22:59.620 Well, and, and, and of course, they've spent a lot of money and energy, devoted a ton of resources to undermining Western countries.

00:23:12.800 And we know about the bot farms that, uh, online that have helped spread the, the message of Hamas or Hezbollah that helped, uh, undermine Israel.

00:23:24.440 But it's not just that.

00:23:25.660 And we saw an example of this, uh, over this last week when the, uh, it was noted that when the, uh, communications were shut down in Iran, suddenly there were all these pro-Scottish independence, uh, social media accounts that went quiet.

00:23:42.160 Because they couldn't post about why Scotland needs to leave the United Kingdom, why Scotland needs to be independent, uh, how awful Britain is to the Scottish people.

00:23:53.120 They were silent because the internet was down in Iran, not because it was down in Glasgow or Edinburgh.

00:23:59.380 Yeah.

00:23:59.920 Isn't that incredible?

00:24:00.600 And I think it tells you something about the priorities of this regime and how it views itself.

00:24:05.040 This is a regime that ultimately doesn't think of its top priority as protecting the Iranian people, uh, providing for its people or anything of that sort, anything that you would traditionally associate with the role of a government.

00:24:16.380 This regime is fundamentally devoted to changing the world order.

00:24:21.340 And that means attacking the West, attacking democracies.

00:24:23.880 And if that means causing chaos in Scotland, then so be it.

00:24:27.840 If it means supporting Russia and sending drones so that Russia can attract Ukraine, so be it. 0.96

00:24:32.560 They're interested in sowing chaos in the West. 0.79

00:24:35.040 Aside from, you know, exporting violence to places like Israel. 0.90

00:24:38.760 Um, and, and this is all part of one big project.

00:24:41.520 And the sooner the world is rid of this regime, I think the better it will be everywhere in the world, including places you would not think of like Scotland, for example.

00:24:49.440 Well, and of course they, they spread disinformation here in Canada and the United States and elsewhere.

00:24:54.380 Uh, it's interesting to watch some of the media coverage.

00:24:58.920 And I, I, I'd love to hear your take is, is anyone getting the media coverage right?

00:25:03.780 You know, if we were to tune into Russia today or Al Jazeera, um, well, then we would find out that these are peaceful protests or that there are counter protests to support the regime that are even bigger than the people in the streets calling for change.

00:25:20.220 What about Western countries?

00:25:22.400 Are, are the media in Canada, the United States in Western Europe, are, are they getting it right?

00:25:28.480 Are we too dismissive of what Al Jazeera and RT are saying as being just propaganda for the regime?

00:25:35.660 And that's a good question.

00:25:37.580 I think, uh, the Western media has been late to the story for one thing.

00:25:41.400 I mean, these protests, um, really have flared up in the last few days, but they've been going on for a long time.

00:25:46.760 Um, at least, you know, we're coming up on almost three weeks now, these protests have been going on and I, it took a long time for the story to work its way onto the front pages of, you know, the New York times or, um, you know, our newspapers here in Canada.

00:25:59.140 Um, I, I don't quite know what the reason for that is.

00:26:02.980 And also I should note that, um, we don't see a ton of pushback, as you say, against the lies being put out by, um, places like Al Jazeera or, or, you know, other Qatari funded news sources and so on.

00:26:14.240 And you also have this kind of far left, um, media ecosystem, uh, that consistently lies and makes common cause with these Islamists. 0.85

00:26:23.180 Um, it's a, it's a really bad information space at the moment.

00:26:26.860 I think there's a lot of efforts by bad actors, um, to, um, spread disinformation, to portray Iran's regime as more peaceful and protective of its citizens than it is, um, to, you know, whitewash what the Iranian regime does.

00:26:42.080 Um, and in the West, I think too much of our mainstream media has missed Iran's story for a long time.

00:26:48.480 For a long time, we were fed the story about Iran's regime being able to reform.

00:26:53.060 And somebody like me was going crazy trying to explain to a Western journalist, like, no, no, no, this is, there's something happening that you need to pay attention to.

00:26:59.140 People are rejecting this reform movement.

00:27:01.080 Um, I, I think we're slowly coming around.

00:27:03.840 I think people are slowly beginning to understand that, but I think the Western media still has a lot more to do on this.

00:27:09.100 I, I, I will defend, uh, my employer post media, uh, that, that, you know, we've definitely been covering it from the beginning.

00:27:16.280 Has it been on the front page of the Toronto Sun or National Post all the time?

00:27:20.280 No.

00:27:21.140 Uh, but there was a dearth, especially in broadcast, um, in, in terms of showing the images.

00:27:28.860 And then that was before the communication shutdown when you could get television images out.

00:27:34.260 Um, it, it was noted and it was noted by an off by myself included and lots of people online saying, why is there nothing about this?

00:27:42.740 The people of Iran are being oppressed.

00:27:44.900 I have not seen anything on campuses, Kaveh.

00:27:47.900 Um, have you seen giant marches in the streets of Toronto or, or on campuses the way we did for, uh, say, uh, Gaza?

00:27:56.300 Uh, no, I mean, I've, I've seen some marches, but those are by Iranians that are, uh, waving the flag and, and waving Canadian flags and expressing solidarity with Israel.

00:28:04.980 Um, in terms of students setting up, um, tent cities, no, I have not seen that.

00:28:10.180 Um, which really does make you question, um, the real commitment of these student activists to human rights.

00:28:16.740 I mean, because this is a, the Iran story is one that doesn't fit very neatly.

00:28:21.120 It's not a very clean story in terms of, you know, the bad guys being the United States and Israel and the good guys being, um, those that are, that are Muslim. 1.00

00:28:28.700 Here is, uh, you know, purportedly Muslim population, um, or at least, you know, a population that, um, has had Islam forced upon them rising up against the repressors.

00:28:39.500 And they're attacking mosques, um, and, and what the reaction that you see from a lot of activists online as well, well, this is, you know, clearly being paid for by the Mossad as if Iranians themselves don't know that for 47 years, they've been oppressed, uh, by Islamic thugs, that the mosques are where these thugs meet and come out and beat people to death.

00:28:59.000 Um, there is a real moral confusion, regrettably, um, among our leftist activist class.

00:29:04.480 Those mosques are the places where they would, uh, decide to, uh, beat on women that did not wear their hijab properly. 1.00

00:29:13.200 Uh, and now you've got the iconic photos out there of Iranian women lighting their cigarettes with a, uh, a photo of, um, Ayatollah Khomeini on fire.

00:29:23.320 And they're using that to light their cigarette with no hijab on. 1.00

00:29:26.640 So they know where the oppression came from and it was from the, uh, the regime in Tehran and their proxies throughout the country.

00:29:34.840 Yeah, I, I see this, the, the, the way, you know, folks that escaped the Soviet union, um, see leftists, um, attempts to portray the, you know, Soviet union as a, as a good actor in the world.

00:29:47.880 Um, it's this incredible, as I said earlier, this moral confusion, um, about who the bad guys are and the people that have actually suffered, be it under a Soviet system, a communist system, or under a theocratic system like Iranians, they are not confused. 0.92

00:30:00.640 They know exactly who's been oppressing them. They're not interested in these identity politics games and they're asking for solidarity.

00:30:06.040 And it's very strange in my view that the left has not been offering to solidarity.

00:30:10.500 You know, here's a left that talks constantly about the rights of women and LGBTQ people and workers and so on.

00:30:15.920 And I think those are important rights to talk about, but you have in the Islamic Republic, a regime that for 47 years has been targeting women and treating them as second class citizens, has been going after workers and labor leaders, has been, um, treating, um, LGBTQ.

00:30:30.640 People as criminals, every group that you can think of that the left is supposed to stand up for and protect the Iranian regime has been targeting them.

00:30:38.840 And yet the Western left still cannot find its, its moral compass, um, and come to the side of the Iranian people.

00:30:46.640 And yet there was, um, a post by Richard Grinnell, who is Donald Trump's intermediary and a lot of different things.

00:30:54.740 And he posted just the other day, I helped sneak gays and lesbians out of Iran. 1.00

00:30:59.840 And for the first time ever, someone has said, I want to wait just a bit.

00:31:05.620 There's real hope coming from the inside.

00:31:07.680 I don't think you can stop this now.

00:31:10.560 He's a Republican.

00:31:12.560 He's helping gays and Iran escape the Islamic Republic regime and, and saying, look, they're now hopeful.

00:31:20.600 We would expect that on the campus of U of T or UBC or McGill, there would be a chance to bring down the Ayatollahs and the Mullahs because of their oppression of such people. 0.81

00:31:33.880 Yeah, precisely.

00:31:35.780 I mean, if you actually care about the rights of, of gay and lesbians, um, and you're not in it purely for performative reasons, then you would be setting up some sort of underground railroad for Iranian gays and lesbians to be able to escape that country. 0.69

00:31:49.040 You would be cheering on the downfall of the people that have been criminalizing gay and lesbian activity.

00:31:54.540 You would be cheering on the downfall of a regime that in its constitution treats women, um, as half of men in its laws.

00:32:02.820 It treats women as being worth their lives, being worth half of men. 0.98

00:32:05.900 This is not a morally complex issue.

00:32:08.300 And yet so many of our activists on the left are completely morally confused about it.

00:32:12.820 Let me ask you about the, uh, issue of graft and the corruption, how that plays into the, uh, the chants that we're hearing or were hearing, uh, when we could hear them, uh, in the streets of, uh, Iran and how it relates back to Canada.

00:32:31.900 Yeah. So you, you mentioned earlier, this is a very corrupt government that, uh, the IRGC makes money off of building dams where they don't need them or infrastructure projects that are questionable at best.

00:32:44.640 And then they pocket the money. And we know many of them have come to Canada. And that's an issue you and I have talked about before.

00:32:51.160 Um, those chants about, you know, their kids living well off in Canada showed up in the protests.

00:32:58.740 The, the people in the street know that we've been letting regime figures, key regime figures who got rich off of oppressing people move to Toronto and Montreal and Vancouver and Calgary and live wonderful lives.

00:33:16.180 Yeah. What a, what a terrible condemnation of Canadian policy, um, that was.

00:33:21.480 So this was a video that went around, as you mentioned of Iranian protesters chanting, our children are dying here.

00:33:26.660 Their children are in Canada. Um, you know, Iran is not North Korea. Iranians have access to the internet.

00:33:32.820 They have access to social media. They see the children, um, of regime officials, um, living lives of luxury in, you know, in London and Paris and increasingly in Toronto and Montreal and Calgary and Vancouver.

00:33:46.560 Um, Canada has regrettably, and this is quite frankly, a bipartisan problem. This is not, I mean, the, the liberals in my view made it worse,

00:33:55.680 but this problem actually regrettably started under, um, Stephen Harper who otherwise was actually great on Iran.

00:34:01.840 Um, we opened our doors to anyone, um, that, that could come here as an investor, anyone that had the kind of money, um, that could come here and, you know, buy a business or, or, you know, buy up real estate.

00:34:13.980 Um, and when you're dealing with a kleptocratic governments like Iran's or Russia's, typically the types of people that can afford to come through the door that way, um, are people that have ties to the regime.

00:34:25.480 And so what's happened is, you know, that, um, immigration system coupled with very, very poor due diligence on our part in terms of who's coming into the country.

00:34:34.000 These things have come together and created a situation where you have people literally walking down the street and running into, um, you know, the police chief of Tehran in Thornhill, just North of Toronto.

00:34:44.360 It's shocking to me that no one in our, um, you know, security system, intelligence system, immigration system ever bothered to Google this guy to see, you know, who is he and why is he coming here?

00:34:55.420 Why?

00:34:55.620 And, and this has happened dozens of times and there are reports that there are hundreds of these people here.

00:35:00.000 I am not shocked because when we invited people in after the Rwandan genocide, people who were fleeing the genocide, we also let in the perpetrators and they ended up living next to each other in the same neighborhoods as often happens.

00:35:16.440 And it's why when there was the, uh, the mania to, uh, help more and more people, I mean, you remember the 2015 election and the war going on in Syria and it started with, well, we'll take in so many thousands of Syrian refugees.

00:35:32.480 And then it would be even more, uh, and on and on and on it would go.

00:35:39.020 Um, and, and, and the initial, uh, plan was not to vet anyone before they get it, got in.

00:35:44.980 And I said, why would we not vet people?

00:35:47.820 You're going to end up with the same thing we did in Rwanda, where we bring in people who are fleeing for their lives and we bring in the people that they're fleeing from.

00:35:56.200 And that's what we've also done with, uh, the Iranian community here in, in this country.

00:36:00.880 Uh, let's talk about, um, regime change.

00:36:04.820 I think that is, uh, and I don't mean in the, uh, United States going in and changing the regime, although that could happen or they could contribute to it.

00:36:14.020 And how does the population get rid of the folks in charge now and, and who replaces them?

00:36:21.540 I, I know that you are not a, um, a big fan of, uh, Crown Prince, uh, Reza, uh, Pahlavi.

00:36:29.080 Um, he is setting himself up, I guess, as some sort of figurehead, uh, waiting in the wings.

00:36:35.400 But how does Iran transition, hopefully back to what it was before in terms of freedom and ability, how it functions politically is up to the people.

00:36:47.040 But how do they get back to freedom and away from an oppressive regime?

00:36:51.140 How do they get rid of the guys in charge now? 0.76

00:36:54.540 Yeah, great question.

00:36:55.300 Um, so I, I think several things need to happen for this regime to fall.

00:37:00.660 One is, I think, street protests and you're seeing them on a mass scale now.

00:37:04.780 Um, those are important, but those can be crushed pretty quickly.

00:37:08.040 Um, I think what we'll also take will be, um, mass strikes.

00:37:12.420 And this is something that happened in 1979 that brought down, you know, the monarchy and, and brought the Islamic government to power.

00:37:18.760 Uh, the oil sector went on strike and if the oil sector can go on strike again, um, if that can be coordinated,

00:37:23.880 if those workers can be paid for their time on the picket lines, um, then, you know, the, the lifeblood of this regime, um, is, is then affected and the regime actually could collapse.

00:37:33.940 And finally, I mean, I think what we're seeing is this is a regime that is not going to hesitate, um, in terms of using brutality, in terms of, you know, shooting bullets into, uh, crowds.

00:37:43.320 And so Iranian people are not armed.

00:37:46.000 I don't, I don't think it would be a great idea to arm, uh, people because once arms are out there, they become impossible to control.

00:37:51.860 And, and the, the prospects of civil war increase, but this is the kind of thing that requires outside help.

00:37:58.660 Um, if the United States or if Israel can actually cripple the apparatus for repression that the Iranian regime uses, you know, be it through cyber warfare or be it through very, very targeted, um, assassinations or targeted bombings of let's say the intelligence ministry in Iran or the IRGC, um, headquarters in Iran.

00:38:17.100 Those things can be really decisive.

00:38:18.940 And I think those things in combination, um, will be what brings the, the regime to its heels, um, and will cause mass defections.

00:38:27.500 I, I, I don't think regrettably, I mean, based on how things are going right now, doesn't, doesn't seem like we're going there.

00:38:33.800 Um, doesn't seem like we're going to see the regime fall just yet, but you know, revolutions, um, take time.

00:38:38.360 So I, I still hold out hope that, that we will prevail in the longer term.

00:38:42.780 Revolutions can always go sideways as well.

00:38:45.420 Um, yeah, Iran is actually, Iran, Iran's today is, is actually the perfect illustration of that. 0.83

00:38:52.000 You know, the 1979 revolution went terribly wrong.

00:38:54.460 Yeah.

00:38:56.040 Yeah.

00:38:56.820 1979, uh, well, a lot of people did not expect it to, uh, end the way it did with the repression.

00:39:03.300 It was supposed to be something else.

00:39:04.640 Uh, the French revolution, uh, went horribly wrong with the retribution and the killings and the guillotine.

00:39:10.000 Uh, are you concerned that that would happen again in, in Iran today?

00:39:17.160 Um, I am not concerned.

00:39:20.260 Well, there, there are outcomes that, that frighten me.

00:39:22.840 So, I mean, there could be a potential coup in Iran where the IRGC simply takes over.

00:39:26.760 That's, that's worrying to me.

00:39:28.420 Um, there could be separatist movements that use this chaos to try to tear the country apart.

00:39:32.920 That worries me.

00:39:33.640 I am not worried that the revolution itself, if the revolution was to succeed, that it would be taken over by bad people simply because even though, um, you know, I have, I don't see anyone in the opposition that's actually taking part in this revolution that is worse than the Islamic regime. 0.92

00:39:49.800 Um, you earlier alluded to the fact that I am not a fan of the movement that, that the crown prince Reza Pahlavi is built.

00:39:56.160 And I, I, I think that's true, but I also want to be fair, um, despite my problems with him, despite the criticisms I have of him.

00:40:03.600 Um, I think any government led by the crown prince would be better than, would be light years better, um, than what we currently have.

00:40:11.580 Um, now I don't think it's the best that, that we can achieve.

00:40:14.360 Then that's kind of where the problem lies and that's where my criticism comes in.

00:40:16.980 We can talk about that if you're interested, but I, I, I still think the options on the table that would come from a revolution are considerably better.

00:40:25.200 And the Iranian people themselves have been there, you know, unlike 1979, where they were confused about what they wanted, where there were, you know, a lot of Marxists in the mix that wanted to make Iran kind of a Soviet satellite state.

00:40:36.900 None of that is in the mix.

00:40:38.040 The revolutionaries are chanting for democracy.

00:40:40.160 They're chanting for human rights and that's what they're seeking.

00:40:42.860 And I don't think anyone's going to be able to impose any revolutionaries going to be able to impose a different system on them.

00:40:49.380 So let me ask you quickly about your problems with the crown prince then.

00:40:53.120 Um, what, what would they be?

00:40:54.980 You know, I understand your point that it would, uh, any government led by him would be far superior to, to what they have now, but what are your concerns?

00:41:03.680 Well, my concern is that the movement that Mr. Pallavi has built.

00:41:07.740 And, and I say this as someone that, that had been in touch with the crown prince that knew, um, him a little bit, knew his, his team and had worked with them.

00:41:14.880 Um, my understanding had always been that what he is interested in and what, and what his team is interested in is building a very broad coalition, um, that brings together people from different ethnic groups, different points of view.

00:41:27.340 Um, and so on, um, but unfortunately what I've observed in the last couple of years, and primarily this happens in Farsi.

00:41:32.960 So if you were to actually observe them in English, you would, you would hear them say very, very nice democratic things.

00:41:37.520 But when you actually observe them in, in Farsi and read what they write and hear what they chant, um, you begin to see that what they're trying to put together is not a broad coalition, but a very narrow one, um, of people that simply adhere to one worldview.

00:41:50.540 So I'll give you an example, and this is one that I've used in, in other interviews of very favorite chant of the Pallavist crowd.

00:41:57.880 And this is not, um, you know, a random chant.

00:41:59.960 This is something that's echoed by the wife of the crown prince, by members of his team.

00:42:03.840 Um, they have a chant that doesn't translate very well into English, but roughly it translates into death to the, these three rotten groups.

00:42:11.900 And they refer to the Mullahs.

00:42:13.240 They refer to the MEK, which is a militant sort of Islamic Marxist organization and the leftists.

00:42:18.860 So a core chant of this group is death to the leftists.

00:42:22.980 Now I am not a leftist.

00:42:24.340 Um, I think the left, you know, as we've been talking about have, there, there was a fair bit of moral confusion in the West and also Iran, the Iranian left.

00:42:31.100 But the idea that a future regime would, um, bring death to the leftists and would completely leave them out of the equation and leave them out of discussion.

00:42:39.940 Um, I think that's a problem.

00:42:41.620 Supporters of Reza Pat have been going on and on, on social media, um, attacking any Kurdish person that talks about the rights of the Kurdish minority.

00:42:48.860 Calling them separatists, um, instead of trying to bring them into the tent, instead of trying to broaden their coalition, they have not done that.

00:42:55.500 And I worry that a future, um, regime led by the crown prince will actually end up isolating large segments of the Iranian population.

00:43:04.420 And many ethnic groups like the Kurds, for example, that should really be welcomed.

00:43:09.180 Do the Americans under president Donald Trump or any other outside countries have a role to play in aiding, assisting, acting to help this revolution?

00:43:20.700 There's long been criticism that had Barack Obama just, you know, expressed support or provided some support in 2009 that the green revolution would have succeeded.

00:43:32.060 Um, so, you know, Donald Trump intervening in international affairs is not seen by many, uh, as fondly as Barack Obama intervening.

00:43:42.360 So what's your view on, on the prospect of, of Trump intervening in some way or offering support?

00:43:50.380 Yeah.

00:43:51.100 So, uh, for those that, that know me or, or, you know, read my writing on social media, I am not a fan of Donald Trump.

00:43:57.840 Um, and I think he has done more harm than good in the United States and internationally.

00:44:01.380 But in this one case, um, I think at least rhetorically he said all the right things, you know, he said that he wants the regime gone.

00:44:08.580 Um, he said that he's on the side of, um, Iranian people, which has been wonderful.

00:44:12.160 And I think almost universally by the protesters has been welcomed, um, where I have criticisms and I, you know, I, I, I don't want to make them too harshly because who knows what tomorrow will bring with, with Donald Trump.

00:44:25.020 It's always hard to predict the future is that he gave a lot of encouragement to protesters to go out in the streets.

00:44:29.300 So very early on in these protests, he said, you know, the United States is locked and loaded and we're, we're going to support you.

00:44:33.700 Just a couple of days ago, he said, um, you know, help is on the way to the protesters.

00:44:38.820 And this encouraged a lot of people to go out in the streets, thinking that the United States was actually actively going to get involved and was going to give them some sort of cover by either attacking, as I mentioned, you know, the intelligence agency or carrying out a cyber attack, giving space for protesters to succeed.

00:44:52.020 Um, unfortunately he has not done that yet.

00:44:54.860 Um, and in fact, yesterday he was saying things that would suggest that, that perhaps he's not going to take any action.

00:45:01.460 Um, I see that as a, as a betrayal.

00:45:03.100 So certainly rhetorically, I, I welcome what, what president Trump has done.

00:45:06.820 And I think there really is a role for the United States, but that rhetoric has to be backed up by action, which we have not yet seen.

00:45:12.380 All right, Kaveh, thanks so much for the time and the insight.

00:45:15.680 I really appreciate it, Brian.

00:45:16.760 Thank you for staying with the story.

00:45:17.800 I hope this episode helps give you a better understanding of a very dynamic situation in Iran, one that could turn volatile at any moment.

00:45:25.680 We'll continue to monitor the situation and hope for peace and freedom for the people of Iran in the near future.

00:45:32.480 Full comment is a post-media podcast.

00:45:34.560 My name is Brian Lilly, your host.

00:45:36.340 This episode was produced by Andre Pru, theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:45:40.200 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:45:42.000 Do remember to hit the subscribe button, leave us a comment or review, and tell your friends all about us.

00:45:48.620 Until next time, thanks for listening.

00:45:50.660 I'm Brian Lilly.

00:45:58.140 Here's that clip from Canada did what?

00:46:00.740 I promised you.

00:46:01.500 In the late 1960s, you have members of the Montreal Police who can spend their entire shift rushing from one FLQ bombing to another.

00:46:13.800 Here's how New Year's Eve 1968 played out for Robert Coté, a member of the Montreal Police Bomb Squad,

00:46:20.620 which put him at the forefront of fighting the FLQ during this period.

00:46:24.800 He was supposed to be at home with his wife, who had just miscarried twin daughters.

00:46:29.080 But instead, at 11pm, he's called out to Montreal City Hall to investigate a bomb that had just gone off.

00:46:36.400 He's en route with sirens blaring when he's told,

00:46:39.260 actually, don't bother with the exploded bomb, there's an unexploded bomb on the other side of City Hall you have to defuse.

00:46:47.160 And then, right after snipping the wires on the City Hall bomb,

00:46:51.000 Coté has to speed west where a third bomb has just exploded outside a federal building.

00:46:56.240 The bombings started in April and May of 1963.

00:47:02.560 That's when the first bombings took place.

00:47:04.720 And the Mailbox bombings were the most famous part of the whole thing,

00:47:08.960 which was basically on the Thursday night and Friday night,

00:47:12.600 leading into the Victoria Day weekend in 1963.

00:47:15.920 So, and initially, they started attacking these symbols of federalism,

00:47:22.240 federal institutions, whether it was the Montreal Post Office or Revenue Canada.

00:47:27.040 But the bombings escalated as time went on,

00:47:30.540 in terms of the size of the bombs and the powerfulness of these bombs.

00:47:35.040 If you want to hear the rest of the story,

00:47:39.040 make sure you subscribe to Canada Did What?

00:47:41.960 Everywhere you get your podcasts.

Full Comment - January 19, 2026

The activist class is conspicuously quiet about Iran

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