Full Comment - The dirty fight shaping up between Carney and Freeland

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00:01:58.720 And they're off to the races, or perhaps, as I've been describing it, a knife fight.

00:02:08.660 We've got two contenders and several pretenders now declared to be running to become the next leader of the Liberal Party of Canada,

00:02:15.720 and by extension, Prime Minister.

00:02:17.860 Hello and welcome to the Full Comment Podcast.

00:02:19.820 My name's Brian Lilly, your host.

00:02:21.660 And today we're going to be breaking down the Liberal Leadership Race,

00:02:24.700 mainly a contest between Chrystia Freeland, Justin Trudeau's former finance minister,

00:02:29.560 and Mark Carney, his former financial advisor.

00:02:32.840 Despite both candidates being close to Trudeau for years,

00:02:36.060 they're both busy trying to distance themselves from him now.

00:02:40.140 Jon Stewart's Daily Show was not the place I would have expected Mark Carney to announce his entry into the Liberal Leadership Race,

00:02:46.400 but there he was on an American late-night TV last week trying to make a pitch to Canadians.

00:02:52.220 Let's say the candidate did have a lot of economic experience.

00:02:55.780 Let's say the candidate did deal with crises.

00:02:58.740 Let's say the candidate had a plan to deal with the challenges in the here and now.

00:03:03.300 You sneaky.

00:03:04.340 You're running as an outsider. 0.62

00:03:06.300 I am an outsider.

00:03:07.460 Now, some have criticized Carney for using an American television appearance instead of speaking to a Canadian media outlet to launch his bid,

00:03:14.980 but I won't fault him for that.

00:03:16.360 In fact, I'll even praise him for this appearance because the knock against Mark Carney has always been that he's a very smart guy,

00:03:22.760 a very accomplished guy, but he can't sound like a normal person when he's speaking.

00:03:27.280 He definitely did on The Daily Show.

00:03:29.380 In fact, he excelled.

00:03:30.780 He had a bit more trouble at his campaign event in Edmonton with teleprompter problems

00:03:35.260 and sounding like he was speaking at a funeral, but overall, Carney had a pretty good launch.

00:03:40.080 Chrystia Freeland spread her launch out. 0.99

00:03:42.160 It was an op-ed saying she's standing up for Canada in the Toronto Star on Friday.

00:03:47.180 A video was released on Saturday and then a rally on Sunday.

00:03:51.160 For all of us, I'm running to be leader of the Liberal Party and our next Prime Minister.

00:03:58.060 I'm in this to fight for you, to fight for Canadians, to fight for Canada.

00:04:04.600 Like Mark Carney, Freeland is also trying to distance herself from Trudeau,

00:04:11.080 despite being at his side for, what, the last 10 years?

00:04:15.420 One way she's doing that is reportedly walking away from Trudeau's signature policy, the carbon tax.

00:04:20.700 But so was Mark Carney, sort of.

00:04:23.020 Interesting times ahead.

00:04:24.880 On Friday, I had a chance to speak to two well-informed Liberal activists,

00:04:29.060 neither of whom are currently active working on a leadership campaign.

00:04:32.520 Karen McMurchie is a consultant at Navigator, a Toronto-based crisis communications firm

00:04:38.080 and formerly worked as a journalist at CBC, writing for shows such as Power and Politics.

00:04:43.140 Sharon Carr is a partner at Sovereign Advisory.

00:04:46.180 She's worked in the energy field and politics at the municipal, provincial levels,

00:04:50.000 and federally, she served as Deputy Chief of Staff to former Finance Minister Bill Morneau.

00:04:55.460 Sharon, I'll start with you.

00:04:57.120 What did you make of Mark Carney's strange launch that seemed like he was doing it while sleeping?

00:05:06.820 Okay.

00:05:07.620 So, like, listen, I think that this is, we have to remember, this is his first official,

00:05:13.300 I would say, coming out into politics.

00:05:16.140 And there is a bit of nervousness that comes with that.

00:05:18.920 So, I know there was folks kind of sassing him about how quickly he was speaking or how slowly he was speaking.

00:05:25.900 What I've heard from his team is that there was a teleprompter issue.

00:05:30.600 And in all fairness, when there's a teleprompter issue, it throws you off your game.

00:05:34.540 If you watched him after in the presser, I think he did great.

00:05:37.980 So...

00:05:38.140 Look, he absolutely did.

00:05:40.620 And, you know, the three of us, anyway, have worked in TV.

00:05:44.000 You lose your teleprompter, it does throw you for a bit.

00:05:47.480 Totally.

00:05:47.820 But, I mean, it was like two different Mark Carney's, Kieran, between his prepared remarks and then his Q&A.

00:05:56.160 I was listening to his French during his speech and just thinking, this is absolutely horrible.

00:06:02.880 I've never heard him speak so poorly.

00:06:05.120 And then he gets to the Q&A, and both in English and French, seemed to come alive again.

00:06:09.620 Absolutely.

00:06:10.880 You know, Brian, I think it's almost like three Mark Carney's.

00:06:13.560 You have the Daily Show appearance, where I thought he was charming and he had a good pre-launch.

00:06:18.480 And then as Sharon and you highlight, the prepared remarks were, I don't want to say low energy, but they were.

00:06:23.580 They were not nearly as exciting as his presser availability.

00:06:27.600 They weren't as direct.

00:06:28.820 To Sharon's point about teleprompters, you know, when a teleprompter goes down, you're kind of floating without a life jacket.

00:06:35.120 And you're hoping to just keep treading water, I guess.

00:06:38.240 But it wasn't the most exciting.

00:06:40.680 And I think also we're comparing it to Justin Trudeau, right, as liberal leader, who has, for all his flaws over the years, he's a great campaigner.

00:06:49.500 And in all of his availabilities, it's high energy.

00:06:52.720 There's crowds chanting.

00:06:54.300 One of Mark Carney's staffers tried to get a Mark, Mark, Mark chant going.

00:06:58.640 And I think it just fell flat in the moment.

00:07:00.500 But to both of your points, the presser afterwards was a much better content.

00:07:06.220 See, people will poo-poo the idea that you need to plan these events out, that there needs to be a lot of production in them.

00:07:15.180 And yet, what are we talking about right now?

00:07:17.560 We're talking about that they couldn't get a Mark, Mark, Mark going.

00:07:22.700 The getting on and off stage portions for some people, like the elder that came up to do the land acknowledgement and say a prayer, that was really awkward.

00:07:31.820 Word, just, you know, the passing by of people, the stagecraft in any of this is very important because it sends signals, doesn't it, Sharon?

00:07:40.660 Okay, so this is something that I honestly care so deeply about, not because I think that it's like a, it's hard to do, but you know what?

00:07:51.260 It actually, for some, it is.

00:07:52.500 So in my background in politics, I spend a lot of my time in the ops world.

00:07:56.820 So visuals matter, and I'm, when I say visuals, I am the queen of micromanaging visuals because that is what people see, that is what they take away.

00:08:05.020 And I like to compare, uh, Krisha Freeland as Minister of Finance to when Bill Marno was the Minister of Finance because when I was with Bill, like, listen, I took the, I took the visuals and the optics so seriously because, think about it this way.

00:08:21.380 I'm working with a, um, a minister who people criticize for being wealthy, people criticize for being white, uh, people criticize for not being your typical politician.

00:08:34.120 So you're working with something and you want to make them seem approachable.

00:08:37.680 You want to create an environment around them that the visuals are great.

00:08:41.220 So if you look at any of his photo ops that I ever organized, their structure, people behind him are properly lined up.

00:08:47.800 Like, even simple things like getting people to take their coats off and, like, not looking disheveled and, like, heights and, like, how people come in and prepping them.

00:08:56.760 Like, all of that stuff matters so much and I'm pretty anal about it because I think the visual is, like, what people are seeing and, like, even things like teleprompters.

00:09:06.220 Did I test the teleprompter enough?

00:09:07.880 Did I have the right, um, speed on it?

00:09:10.480 And it matters.

00:09:11.120 Like, I know, I know for, like, Minister Freeland or Freeland's team, at least, it hasn't.

00:09:15.780 But, like, honestly, truly, it does.

00:09:18.120 It matters so much.

00:09:19.600 It sends subliminal signals.

00:09:20.920 I mean, think of Pierre Paglia's, uh, news conference when he came out, uh, just recently to respond to the Trump tariffs.

00:09:27.340 13 Canadian flags.

00:09:30.060 That's sending a signal that you're not even thinking about just by viewing it.

00:09:34.780 And people pick up on those.

00:09:36.480 They're either impressed by it or they're turned off by it.

00:09:40.180 Um, and the same with, with, um, I was about to call him, uh, Bill Morneau.

00:09:45.040 Same with Mark Carney's launch.

00:09:47.020 Bill Morneau, not running for the liberal leadership.

00:09:49.740 I'll just say that they do look like brothers.

00:09:52.280 But it's those subliminal signals, Kieran.

00:09:54.840 Yeah.

00:09:55.540 Aesthetics are everything, right?

00:09:56.580 This is a TV launch, a made-for-TV event.

00:09:59.520 And it fell flat because the TV aesthetics weren't there, to Sharon's point about triple-checking everything.

00:10:04.920 If you're not doing that, it's not going to be a good TV production.

00:10:09.840 And that sends signals to voters.

00:10:11.580 It sends signals to people who are looking at these little things, to your point, Brian, about subliminal messaging.

00:10:17.000 It sends a not great signal, to be honest.

00:10:20.900 You haven't seen Joe Oliver's old shoe events, have you?

00:10:23.280 Where they do it in the back of the playlist, and it's like sitting on chairs looking really duddy.

00:10:27.080 But, yeah.

00:10:27.880 Different time.

00:10:28.600 Different time.

00:10:29.380 You know, TV is the medium, though.

00:10:30.680 So, or at least online video.

00:10:34.020 But, Kieran, I'll say this.

00:10:36.820 Like, between the Daily Show and this launch, criticisms we may have of it, we are all talking about Mark Carney.

00:10:44.680 So, he has been sucking up most of the oxygen in the room.

00:10:50.720 Now, we're recording on Friday.

00:10:53.100 I was told that Christopher Freeland would launch on Friday.

00:10:56.900 That's been put off to Sunday.

00:10:59.600 But Mark Carney has essentially owned the week.

00:11:03.420 So, Justin Trudeau resigns on the 6th.

00:11:05.880 A week later, Mark Carney's on the Daily Show.

00:11:08.160 And we're only talking about him to the point that, I'm not sure if you guys heard about it,

00:11:11.940 but the Whisper campaign that, oh, Christopher Freeland's not even going to get in.

00:11:16.480 Mark Carney has so much momentum.

00:11:18.540 That's not true.

00:11:19.640 But that was the chatter.

00:11:21.140 That's how much he dominated this first real week of liberal leadership campaign.

00:11:27.400 Yeah.

00:11:27.500 He's definitely dominated the news cycle.

00:11:29.180 And two weeks seems like a lifetime in politics, where, to your point of Trudeau resigning two Mondays ago,

00:11:34.860 and now we're here and Mark Carney's owning the news cycle.

00:11:37.440 And Freeland is soft launching this morning, official launch to come.

00:11:41.940 You're absolutely right, Brian.

00:11:43.360 He's owned the news cycle.

00:11:44.700 We're all talking about him.

00:11:45.920 He's out of the gates first and with, I think, a pretty good head start.

00:11:52.060 Let's talk about the policy, though.

00:11:56.480 These two are now opposed to the carbon tax.

00:12:00.300 Do either of you believe them?

00:12:01.600 Because it was just, I don't know, it wasn't that long ago that the Trudeau government said,

00:12:06.360 if we don't have a carbon tax, the planet will die and you'll clearly hate people, Sharon.

00:12:10.980 Okay.

00:12:11.580 So, listen, I was around, I was working in government when we introduced, and we call it a price on pollution.

00:12:18.460 Yeah, but nobody else does.

00:12:20.100 That's fair enough.

00:12:21.960 But anyways, when the carbon tax was introduced, the time was different.

00:12:24.620 And we were talking pre-pandemic, pre-inflation, pre-high interest rates, and pre-cost of living crisis.

00:12:33.680 And at that time, it was meant to do something.

00:12:37.700 And I think that the problem is that when you introduce policy, you have to be really willing to adapt when times change.

00:12:44.860 And I think for Carney, who previously has also kind of been supportive of the carbon tax,

00:12:51.560 very quickly has adjusted to his perspective on it, given the time we're in right now.

00:12:57.240 And I think it's easier for him to walk away from it than it is for Freeland, because she was supporting it not too long ago.

00:13:03.580 Like, we're talking before she resigned.

00:13:05.440 Like, she's still out there supporting it.

00:13:07.140 So, for her, it's a little less, I would say, natural for her to be able to move away from it.

00:13:14.040 But Carney is on the record, including appearances before the Canadian House of Commons, speeches to international groups.

00:13:22.740 He thought that Canada's carbon tax was a model to follow, but it just wasn't high enough.

00:13:29.440 It needed to be higher.

00:13:31.060 That was his only critique of it.

00:13:32.920 And now he's going to be against it.

00:13:35.380 I don't think that that, maybe some people will accept that.

00:13:38.900 I think others will say, really?

00:13:41.380 Well, I think that, and I don't know what year he said that in, and I think that does matter to a certain extent.

00:13:47.940 But, again, times change.

00:13:50.160 If you want to be a politician, long gone are the days that you have to never reverse a position.

00:13:57.240 Like, we've seen it.

00:13:58.000 We saw it when the government put small business tax cuts or tax increases into place before.

00:14:03.360 You have to be willing to adapt.

00:14:04.880 And I think when Pierre Polyev's major campaign pushes a carbon tax election and carbon tax Carney, carbon tax Freeland, all these things, like, if they take that away from him, then what is it?

00:14:16.940 So, I get people, I get that people will push back on it, but so what?

00:14:21.320 You reverse it.

00:14:22.420 And then what?

00:14:23.000 And I think, to your point, Sharon, about Polyev, the conservatives have won the arms race on this.

00:14:29.740 The carbon tax is not popular in any province in this country.

00:14:33.640 And anyone for the liberals running to replace prime minister have a shot in the general.

00:14:38.960 They had to cede that ground.

00:14:40.580 They have to move away from the carbon tax because it's so unpopular.

00:14:44.100 But will people believe, either Freeland or Carney, that they're not on board with the carbon tax?

00:14:55.020 I mean, so, you know, I've heard the talking point that, oh, Polyev has had his two biggest assets and the two things he talks about the most taken away, Justin Trudeau and the carbon tax.

00:15:09.240 They're both gone.

00:15:10.580 Trudeau's gone, but his record's not.

00:15:12.760 And you've got, you know, his former finance minister and his former shadow finance minister running to replace him.

00:15:19.940 Either one of them in a general election is going, I mean, the point will constantly be made by the conservatives.

00:15:27.340 You can't trust them on this issue.

00:15:29.860 And I think Freeland's going to have a harder time with that than Carney's because she's been Trudeau's minister of everything.

00:15:35.880 She's stood in the House consistently and promoted the effects of a carbon tax, giving money back to Canadians through the rebate, price on carbon necessity, et cetera, et cetera.

00:15:45.460 Carney, on the other hand, for as close as he has been to this liberal government, he's not been a part of it technically.

00:15:51.620 There's a bit more legitimacy there on his end to be able to hold it out at arm's length and say, you know, to Sharon's point, we need to do something for the environment.

00:16:00.520 But times have changed.

00:16:01.660 And I think that's the line he has to walk.

00:16:03.860 Whereas for Freeland, it'll be a much more difficult side to tread.

00:16:08.840 But listen, also on that, I think.

00:16:10.520 And this is something that I know a lot of conservatives are going to say, no, because he says he's an outsider and she's an insider.

00:16:18.900 Here's the thing.

00:16:20.240 When we say that Carney has kind of been there, he's been the guy who they've relied on.

00:16:26.740 I'm just going to say something that might not be obvious to folks, but something that this government has done from the very beginning is they like to use names as sparkly objects to get people's attention.

00:16:38.160 So was Mark Carney called upon for advice?

00:16:42.360 I'm sure he was.

00:16:43.800 Was he called upon for advice every day?

00:16:46.260 Absolutely not.

00:16:47.540 It's his name.

00:16:48.280 His name brought them credibility when they needed it.

00:16:50.660 And I think that the issue he's having now is kind of pushing away and kind of being that outsider type of voice.

00:16:56.420 Do I think he was an insider?

00:16:57.760 I actually don't think he is the insider that everyone is claiming him to be because I know how these guys operate.

00:17:04.160 I've seen how they establish these panels and chairs and whatever.

00:17:07.840 And they're just names.

00:17:09.340 They use them for credibility, but they don't actually involve them.

00:17:13.080 Well, yeah.

00:17:13.460 Well, listen, it's true, though.

00:17:15.960 It's like people like Dominic Barton, too.

00:17:17.660 Like he was used for economic roundtables.

00:17:22.020 But did they call Dominic Barton every day?

00:17:23.600 Absolutely not.

00:17:24.980 Well, and the one thing that Carney will have that Freeland will not is that as much as we all know Mark Carney's name,

00:17:32.740 and I'm sure everyone listening to this podcast knows Mark Carney's name.

00:17:36.980 We're political junkies, and there's going to be an awful lot of voters.

00:17:41.300 I mean, think of how few people know any cabinet ministers' names.

00:17:46.400 They'll know one or two, the big ones.

00:17:48.880 And then you get down to, you know, Treasury Board President, Labor Minister, Immigration Minister.

00:17:57.040 Who?

00:17:57.700 They know the Prime Minister.

00:17:59.020 They know the Finance Minister.

00:18:00.640 Maybe one other.

00:18:01.580 So there's going to be a lot of people who have never heard of Mark Carney before.

00:18:05.320 They will have heard of Chrystia Freeland.

00:18:08.140 Let me ask both of you about this.

00:18:10.760 As you know, I've been writing a lot about the liberal leadership race, but also talking to a lot of liberals.

00:18:18.320 It's been amusing that some of the best inside coverage of the liberal leadership race has been in the Toronto Sun.

00:18:27.040 That's probably as unexpected to me as it is to those who have been reading it.

00:18:31.580 But what I found fascinating is that both sides are trying to make the other sound like the insider, and they're the outsider.

00:18:41.480 Nobody's looking to stand next to Trudeau.

00:18:44.060 Like the cheese, he's standing alone.

00:18:46.180 They don't want to be seen as too close to them.

00:18:49.120 And as one MP said to me, though, oh, we're all liberals.

00:18:51.940 Of course we're all tied to Trudeau.

00:18:54.440 We've all been part of this for the last while.

00:18:56.480 We're all part of the same party.

00:18:59.040 Talk to me a bit about your view on that dynamic.

00:19:01.580 Of nobody wanting to be too close to the current leader.

00:19:06.580 Okay, so I'm just going to jump in here, having lived this very closely.

00:19:11.260 And I'll start by saying, it's not verbatim, but in Carney's remarks yesterday, he did say something that kind of stood out to me.

00:19:19.560 That he pointed out, and I think this was his way to distance himself from the current PM and PMO.

00:19:24.740 He said something along the lines of, everyone knows that the PM and his office have lost sight of the economy or whatever.

00:19:33.260 And like, he was being very clearly, it wasn't like shade, but it kind of was, right?

00:19:38.740 And as somebody who has been a liberal for, like, the entirety of my life, I started off as a teenager.

00:19:44.600 But for anyone who knows me, and many will call it a flaw, is that I've never shied from being outspoken about where I think we have failed on things.

00:19:56.360 And I think specifically in the feds, like, when I left government, and the shackles were taken off and I could have an opinion, I've always called the government out when I've heard them say things, do things that I thought were not aligned with what the mainstream population of, like, centrist liberals believe.

00:20:13.520 Like, I can't even use the word centrist around a lot of people in Ottawa, because I get yelled at and say, we don't like that word, we like the term progressive.

00:20:19.680 The problem is, is that this Liberal Party, which is not the Liberal Party of Canada, it's the Liberal Party of Justin Trudeau, has shifted away from what the fundamentals of the Liberal Party of Canada used to be.

00:20:30.140 And people are trying to move away from that, so even now, like, MPs or staff or whoever it is you're talking to, I think there's, like, an identity crisis of people trying to rebrand and kind of rebuild what the party is.

00:20:45.120 And I think for someone like Carney, who I actually think is a really, really smart person and could be really great in the role of Prime Minister, he's going to have to also kind of, like, bring the party back to the party of economics, bring the party back to the party of centrism and balance versus virtue signaling.

00:21:02.780 And I hate the term woke, but everyone's talking about how woke it's gone.

00:21:06.320 So I think people do have to kind of speak out and say where the flaws are in a bit.

00:21:11.520 Are you surprised by the distancing, Kieran?

00:21:16.740 No, I'm not.

00:21:17.480 I think there's been a recognition that the Liberal Party went too far on that progressive side.

00:21:22.660 Some call woke progressive, you know, pick your poison, whatever it is.

00:21:25.680 And Canadians aren't there. 1.00

00:21:27.520 So the leadership candidates, Freeland, Carney, whoever else throws their hand in the air for this job, they have to move it to a more moderate, centrist, to Sharon's word, place.

00:21:39.860 Progressive.

00:21:40.860 Exactly.

00:21:41.520 Because otherwise, you know, Polyev and the Conservatives are going to eat their lunch because Canadians, they're just not there.

00:21:48.640 Well, you know, let's just talk about this progressive versus centrist thing for a moment because I've been hearing so many MPs and liberal supporters and pundits in the TV appearances saying, well, we have to get back to the center.

00:22:04.240 Well, excuse me, Judy Scrooge, you've been part of this Liberal Party.

00:22:08.960 You've been an MP since the 90s.

00:22:10.620 You've been part of this government the whole time.

00:22:13.060 Why weren't you speaking up before?

00:22:14.900 Jean Chrétien saying radical center.

00:22:16.820 But that's always where Chrétien's been.

00:22:18.240 You can't fault him.

00:22:19.060 But Trudeau really did believe in moving the party in the progressive direction.

00:22:24.780 And if you listen to how we would speak about that, especially if we was referencing the NDP, he talked about them as if they were part of the same party.

00:22:34.400 We progressives.

00:22:35.480 And I always found that odd because I remember when liberals would fight with new Democrats and saw them as being too far to the left.

00:22:44.420 Trudeau truly didn't see it that way, did he?

00:22:47.440 It was a vote.

00:22:48.100 It was for votes.

00:22:49.100 It was purely to pull from votes.

00:22:50.840 I think that they saw very clearly that the, I would say, the right, the Conservatives' tent has, like, listen, most people would say I'm a blue liberal or a red Tory.

00:23:01.440 But for me, to be honest, the current federal Conservative Party has a whole wackadoo of people on the far right, which kind of freak me out and make me uncomfortable.

00:23:12.660 And I think for Trudeau, he tried to do this whole thing where their strategy was let's pull from the left.

00:23:18.720 So this whole progressive stuff has been purely a vote catch to get people from the NDP.

00:23:23.280 And what people forget, and I used to harp about this all the time to the powers that be in Ottawa, is that NDPers, for the most part, like I'm talking the mainstream NDPers who are, like, hardcore, bleeding hearts activists, are so ideological that it doesn't matter what you do.

00:23:40.520 They will always be a dipper.

00:23:42.580 So they get that 16% to 20% every time, and they're not trading in their Birkenstocks for a pair of comfy liberal loafers, are they, Karen?

00:23:49.840 No, they're definitely not.

00:23:51.760 And I think, you know, look around the world.

00:23:53.320 The center is splitting.

00:23:54.640 There is no center in global geopolitics anymore.

00:23:58.300 You have far less.

00:23:59.620 The liberals abandoned it and allowed Pierre Paulyev to walk in and say, hey, welcome home.

00:24:04.740 Exactly.

00:24:05.340 And I think, you know, look at the 2015 to 19 mandate and everything that's come since.

00:24:09.960 And the two minority parliaments that Trudeau's had to run, he's had to rely on the bloc.

00:24:14.220 But for a majority on the left with the NDP, to Sharon's point, he needed votes.

00:24:18.920 And so that meant he had to cede to the left, to what they wanted, to the, you know, air

00:24:24.300 quotes, progressive, woke policies that they really pushed for, or else his government was

00:24:29.580 going to fall.

00:24:30.980 Okay, we need to take a quick break here.

00:24:32.980 When we come back, I guess we should talk about some of the other candidates, because

00:24:36.240 apparently there are other folks in the race, or so I've heard.

00:24:39.900 I'm running.

00:24:40.600 I'm running, guys.

00:24:41.920 I am here to inform you that I am not running for the Liberal Party, but we'll talk about who

00:24:46.060 is when we come back.

00:24:48.920 Bank more encores when you switch to a Scotiabank banking package.

00:24:54.500 Learn more at scotiabank.com slash banking packages.

00:24:58.100 Conditions apply.

00:25:00.040 Scotiabank.

00:25:00.660 You're richer than you think.

00:25:02.240 As much as I've described the Liberal leadership race as a knife fight between

00:25:06.440 Chrystia Freeland and Mark Carney, and let's point out, this could get really nasty between

00:25:11.680 the two of them, and Mark Carney is godfather to one of Chrystia Freeland's kids.

00:25:16.260 That's how well they know each other, so it'll be interesting to see if it does get nasty.

00:25:21.080 There are other people in this race, and one of the campaigns, when I did a big write-up

00:25:26.820 of who's in, who's out the other day, wrote to me to inform me that I should really be

00:25:31.140 including Frank Bayless in this rundown.

00:25:36.240 And please don't turn off the podcast and go searching for who Frank Bayless is, because

00:25:42.040 we'll explain it, because most people won't know, will they, Kieran?

00:25:46.200 No, I don't think so.

00:25:48.700 You say Frank Bayless and say, who?

00:25:51.640 Who's running?

00:25:53.000 And I think that's what we're seeing with this other tranche of candidates.

00:25:58.580 Who's who of Liberal leadership?

00:26:01.100 Well, well played.

00:26:04.920 But Frank Bayless is apparently in.

00:26:07.940 Chandra Aria, who, you know, so Frank Bayless was a Montreal area MP, never made it to cabinet.

00:26:15.420 Most people who are going to have heard his name outside of his riding and his family will

00:26:21.160 have heard about it because of controversy related to contracts during COVID for ventilators.

00:26:26.400 You know, I have no idea why he's running.

00:26:29.760 Chandra Aria, Ottawa area MP, who again, not known outside of his riding, maybe not even

00:26:36.040 in his riding, or his family.

00:26:39.440 Jamie Batiste out of Nova Scotia saying he's going to run.

00:26:44.640 Karina Gould, we'll talk about her in a moment.

00:26:47.720 Burlington MP, cabinet minister of several portfolios, who I think is a stalking horse.

00:26:51.980 And Ruby Dalla, making calls, former Liberal MP who left politics in 2011, making calls

00:27:01.340 to gauge support.

00:27:03.360 Are any of them serious beyond Karina Gould possibly being used as a stalking horse for

00:27:09.160 Mark Carney to take votes away from Freeland?

00:27:12.360 Oh my.

00:27:13.340 Okay, so Frank Bayless.

00:27:15.840 Let's start with Frank Bayless.

00:27:17.140 This lovely former MP from a Montreal region who has a very, or had a very successful ventilator

00:27:24.680 business post-COVID and now has more money than God, I think is a lovely human, but not

00:27:34.240 the time or day.

00:27:35.140 I think it's, I don't know what the thought process was there, but it's great that he's

00:27:39.880 trying to do something.

00:27:41.380 But, uh, Jamie Batiste, um, you know what, I think it's wonderful that we have an Indigenous

00:27:46.460 candidate who, um, is, his platform is to be the first Indigenous potential Prime Minister.

00:27:51.980 Uh, now Karina Gould, listen, she is a, uh, a very...

00:27:57.540 She's smart, she's partisan, she's well-spoken, but I don't see her as a, as a leadership candidate

00:28:02.920 in the race between Carney and Freeland.

00:28:05.680 No, she, you know what, she's such a nice, uh, and her demeanor, like, to me, she'd be

00:28:10.600 like the perfect Prime Minister in, like, a Nordic country.

00:28:13.480 Like, she's just so, like, lovely, but I say, like, she's actually someone to watch.

00:28:18.020 She is a, and I say that with, like, so much respect.

00:28:20.780 Um, she is someone to watch, and I think she is kind of a bit of a, like, I'm not going

00:28:25.400 to say a kingmaker in this situation, but this is a profile-building exercise.

00:28:29.020 Like, we've seen other candidates do this in previous times.

00:28:32.180 But if she jumps in, do you, do either of you buy the idea that she is in there with

00:28:40.420 backing from people who really want Carney to win to draw votes away from Freeland?

00:28:46.280 Oh, you know what?

00:28:48.080 I've heard some weird things come out of this leadership campaign, like, rumors that are,

00:28:52.160 like, spreading around.

00:28:53.380 Like, let's just be real for one second.

00:28:55.000 There was this big rumor, uh, around that the entire PMO was backing Carney's team, and

00:29:01.380 I have been told from very senior people on the Carney team who were livid about that,

00:29:05.700 saying that was a rumor Freeland's team started, just to piss people off and get them away.

00:29:09.780 So the Karina thing, it's possible, but I've also heard she's got ambitions, and this is

00:29:14.680 a profile-building exercise.

00:29:16.340 Um, is there backroom conversations happening for her to pull votes away? 1.00

00:29:20.820 Maybe.

00:29:21.640 Um, is, is it also possible she's just doing this to build her name?

00:29:25.780 Also, maybe.

00:29:26.840 I don't know, but anything's possible.

00:29:28.960 To that point about, about not knowing, I think it, it is very likely that it could be

00:29:34.400 a, a profile-building exercise for her.

00:29:36.600 She's held a number of smaller ministerial portfolios, but she's done a good job in them.

00:29:40.760 And I mean, on the day this, this all started, back when Freeland resigned, when the government

00:29:45.500 had no clue if it could table the fall economic statement, Gould was the one who had to stand

00:29:51.060 up and take the punches and deliver the speech.

00:29:53.680 So it shows she has support of, of PMO, of the caucus.

00:29:56.720 And I think she could, I don't want to say play kingmaker, but, but her support for whichever

00:30:01.920 candidate she ends up throwing her weight behind could bring votes that, that could tip 0.97

00:30:06.160 it over the edge.

00:30:06.760 Uh, I'll tell you one quick story about, uh, uh, Karina Gould, uh, and it's only because

00:30:13.260 you say she's so nice, uh, Sharon, um, and, and, and she does appear very nice.

00:30:18.780 She, she, she seems like, um, the kindergarten teacher that, uh, looks after your kids and

00:30:24.300 you want to talk to her and, you know, she has that kind of demeanor.

00:30:26.880 She is also incredibly partisan and ruthless when it comes to playing politics. 1.00

00:30:32.080 So before the 2021 election, the, uh, the federal government was trying to get deals with all

00:30:39.220 the provinces and Ontario was one of the last to sign.

00:30:43.620 The then chief of staff was my former boss, Jamie Wallace.

00:30:47.000 And I remember talking and I was keeping in touch with Jamie.

00:30:49.440 And as you do in politics, you, you talk to the senior people to find out what's going

00:30:54.220 on.

00:30:54.560 And, um, I'd been tracking where are they with the, uh, deal on, on, um, uh, on childcare

00:31:01.780 with the feds.

00:31:02.840 And, and what I kept hearing when minister Hussain was in office was, oh, we're really

00:31:07.640 close.

00:31:08.020 We're really close.

00:31:08.700 Then the election happened and everything had to be put on hold.

00:31:10.900 And so I, I, you know, the last thing I was told is, oh, this will be done very quickly

00:31:15.780 once we get back from the election.

00:31:17.140 Cause we just have to finalize things, but now we can't talk to them.

00:31:20.620 Gould was put into the portfolio and they wanted to pick fights with Doug Ford.

00:31:25.460 So what does she do? 0.93

00:31:26.600 She does what the PMO asks, comes out, says they haven't even sent us paperwork.

00:31:32.080 They're not working on a deal.

00:31:34.120 They're, they're, they're causing problems, uh, for, for parents.

00:31:37.480 None of it was true, but it helped them pick the fight they wanted with Doug Ford, who was

00:31:42.500 sitting there saying, what the hell happened?

00:31:44.660 I thought we had a deal.

00:31:46.960 That's, that's how politics works folks. 0.99

00:31:48.860 Um, so in terms of, um, where the race goes from, from here, I think most of those candidates

00:31:58.280 that we talked about won't make the, the $350,000 connection.

00:32:02.400 I think that, uh, you know, you've got to have 50,000 in by next week.

00:32:07.220 And then it, you know, goes up to the full amount being in by February 17th.

00:32:14.540 Will it get nasty?

00:32:15.660 Do you think that, that these two people who have known each other and been friends for

00:32:19.620 so long will take punches or do they just throw shade at Trudeau and, and the past record

00:32:26.300 and attack Polly F? 1.00

00:32:28.580 Well, either way, it's going to be really awkward for the God child. 1.00

00:32:33.280 Um, like, come on.

00:32:35.900 Uh, you know, it's weird because they, these are two people who, um, are probably friendly

00:32:40.860 and friends, like friendly enough to give your gift, like, again, be the Godfather to

00:32:45.800 your child is, is something.

00:32:47.340 Um, I think it's going to get a little dirty.

00:32:49.540 I have on, like, if I used like X as a barometer, um, I've been seeing some shade, um, like for

00:32:56.220 example, Freeland posted that photo at her kitchen table, um, drinking tea and making phone calls.

00:33:03.580 And, uh, like, I was just joking and saying, like, take a better photo op guys.

00:33:08.260 Like, it just looked kind of whatever.

00:33:09.680 And like, I had a couple Freeland people like send me messages saying, well, at least it's

00:33:14.500 not a Rolls Royce or it's at least it's like, not like at the world economic forum.

00:33:18.440 I'm like, really?

00:33:19.160 Is that the angle we're taking?

00:33:20.180 Cause like, she's also there.

00:33:21.360 Let's, let's not.

00:33:22.080 Um, so I think it will get a little, it will get a little nasty, but politics, like life

00:33:26.680 is many days, things can turn around.

00:33:28.600 So, um, I think we'll see more shade come out of the Freeland team than we will from

00:33:33.720 the Kearney team, to be honest.

00:33:35.420 And I think, you know, on the point of nastiness, I'm sure it will, but they both have to be

00:33:40.920 careful about it because this isn't a general election.

00:33:43.420 They're not running against another side.

00:33:45.980 They're running against each other on the same team.

00:33:48.220 And so you can't piss supporters off, but you really can't piss organizers off.

00:33:52.260 To an extent that they don't want to work for you.

00:33:54.700 Come a general.

00:33:55.400 If you're the leader.

00:33:56.580 Well, I've seen that happen in liberal leadership campaigns before, but I'm old and I go back

00:34:00.920 to the, uh, the, the race to replace Sean Kretchen and, um, it was nasty before, uh,

00:34:06.540 Kretchen said he'd stepped down and it was nasty during the, uh, the leadership race where

00:34:10.700 Paul Martin didn't have to beat up on John Manley.

00:34:13.820 And yet he did, or at least his, his team did.

00:34:17.020 Um, look, there's been, I wrote up the story about, uh, Carney being,

00:34:22.060 photographed with Ghislaine Maxwell, uh, Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice and girlfriend, uh,

00:34:27.820 that was being spread around online.

00:34:29.820 And I've had several people, including liberals say to me that they think it was the Freeland

00:34:33.940 team.

00:34:34.520 I've spoken to the conservatives who assure me it was not them.

00:34:38.220 They wanted to use that later on because they knew about it, but apparently a lot of

00:34:41.960 people knew about it.

00:34:42.700 And for, for background, if people haven't heard, just so that Carney's team isn't screaming

00:34:46.600 at me, um, these were photos taken in 2013, appeared in the daily mail and elsewhere,

00:34:52.460 but long before Maxwell was ever charged, uh, she was friends with his, um, uh, with Carney's

00:34:59.680 step sister or sister-in-law.

00:35:01.620 Um, and they were all at an event together.

00:35:04.640 Uh, and so that, you know, when, when I reached out to Carney's team, one, they said, well, we

00:35:09.720 were expecting someone would do a story and someone would call and two, they were straight

00:35:15.140 up.

00:35:15.380 Yeah.

00:35:15.560 They, he met her several times, didn't know anything about what was going on until, uh,

00:35:20.100 news break and broken charges came, but that was kind of a dirty whisper campaign going

00:35:25.120 against Carney, which is part of why I did the story.

00:35:27.780 It's like, okay, let's, instead of just whispering about this on X and floating these photos around,

00:35:32.620 let's actually get them on the record.

00:35:34.620 Dirty whisper campaigns can really hurt people. 1.00

00:35:37.300 Yeah.

00:35:37.700 So listen, I like, this one was one that I found a bit irritating from like, cause I

00:35:42.280 heard the same thing that you did, that it was not the conservatives and all of my, all

00:35:45.640 my friends on the conservative side was like, we were going to hold onto this.

00:35:48.440 Um, and then we were hearing whispers that, yeah, it was actually the Freeland team.

00:35:51.920 Like, I'm sorry, but that's like pretty low.

00:35:55.480 And I know this is politics.

00:35:56.720 So when they go low, you go underground, but it's like, we cannot control the actions of

00:36:04.440 other people.

00:36:05.140 It did was Mark Carney hanging out with Jeffrey Epstein.

00:36:08.640 No, like that's just absurd.

00:36:10.160 And the fact that there's, but I, I did have to ask him that given the photos and you know

00:36:14.220 what?

00:36:14.400 You'd probably have to ask every major business person in North America and Europe, if they

00:36:18.140 have given how wide his network was, did everyone know what kind of creep he was?

00:36:22.240 No, did a lot of people.

00:36:23.780 Yeah.

00:36:24.220 Like I, Mark Carney is many things.

00:36:26.760 Um, and like having been in his orbit and having been around him enough, uh, during my

00:36:32.380 time in politics, he is like, it's just, it's a bit like, it's malicious that people are

00:36:37.480 just trying to push that.

00:36:39.160 Like, just say what you're going to say.

00:36:40.520 Can you imagine what would be said about the media of which I am still a part if he gets

00:36:47.980 elected prime minister and then photos come up about Mark Carney, you guys can't be trusted.

00:36:53.260 You guys wouldn't ask him about this.

00:36:55.500 But totally.

00:36:56.080 And I, and I appreciate that.

00:36:57.260 And I think that if you got the picture, you have to ask about it, but you've got the

00:37:01.140 comment back.

00:37:01.820 There are people online who have been spiraling and spiraling about this picture, making it

00:37:06.820 seem as if he was hanging out with the guy having breakfast on a Thursday.

00:37:10.420 Like, yes, they were at a vent.

00:37:12.340 Um, they were moving around really big networks.

00:37:14.980 Is, is he associated with the nonsense that happened to them?

00:37:18.460 No.

00:37:18.880 And I think that like, this is like the implication or trying to suggest he was by whoever leaked

00:37:24.760 this photo is pretty grimy.

00:37:26.080 And you know what, it's a, it's a dirty game.

00:37:29.260 Yep.

00:37:29.840 Yeah.

00:37:30.440 Uh, in terms of, uh, policy, how do either of you see, I mean, these are two financially

00:37:37.740 focused people, even before government Freeland was in, um, you know, business journalism.

00:37:43.100 Uh, she wrote a book that's sitting right next to me here called Plutocrats, uh, that was

00:37:47.800 mostly focused on economic issues.

00:37:49.920 How do they go about putting together a message that resonates with Canadians on issues like

00:37:58.920 affordability when so much of the blame rightly or wrongly is going to the current government?

00:38:07.440 Um, how much, you know, so we've talked about the carbon tax issue already, but how much

00:38:13.400 more distance do they need to do?

00:38:15.160 Uh, what kind of policies do they need to come up with to attract people?

00:38:19.200 Because it is very good chance that, you know, within a month of one of them winning the

00:38:24.460 leadership, we're going to be in a, in a general election.

00:38:27.380 So Karen, uh, what do you do, uh, what, what would your advice be if you were, uh, you

00:38:33.440 know, guiding either one of these campaigns?

00:38:35.940 I think you have to focus on affordability because that's what everyone in the country

00:38:39.120 is focusing on.

00:38:39.960 And so you saw Mark Carney yesterday signal that the Trudeau government took its eye off

00:38:45.060 the ball, so to speak, and that they have to keep an eye on the economy, on economic

00:38:49.980 growth, on ensuring that Keynes across the country aren't facing the same affordability

00:38:55.420 stresses that they are.

00:38:56.400 And so I think that message will have to be driven home time and time again over the

00:39:01.500 next month and a half before March 9th.

00:39:04.600 And then as much as they can in the three weeks before the government potentially falls

00:39:10.080 and we're into a general election, I think anything else, you know, with Trump's tariffs

00:39:13.940 coming in on, on Tuesday and, and all the hurt that that's going to bring to the Canadian

00:39:18.700 economy, to Canadian workers, I think it's going to be an election about affordability and

00:39:24.520 whoever is the leadership, um, is the leader for the liberals is going to have to take that

00:39:29.640 fight to Pierre Paulyevre and the conservatives who have owned that message for the last two,

00:39:35.180 almost three years since he was elected leader.

00:39:37.440 Uh, to add to that, um, I guess we're going to have to cancel our Disney plus, but no,

00:39:47.580 you know, nice little dig.

00:39:49.040 I'm kidding.

00:39:50.980 Listen, it's a, it's going to be a lot of harder.

00:39:53.140 Um, I think it's, it's going to be easier for someone like Mark Carney to come in.

00:39:57.040 Like he comes from a serious economic background and, um, uh, it's, uh, like, I think that'll

00:40:02.640 be easier for him.

00:40:03.360 It's a bit more challenging for Freeland having kind of like, she didn't really table the fez

00:40:09.120 that she was working on.

00:40:10.520 And like you saw, uh, Brian, like what the real deficit numbers were.

00:40:14.540 So it's, it's going to be really hard for her to hammer home the message around, um, affordability

00:40:20.840 given that the deficit and spending was skyrocketed under her watch.

00:40:26.440 And like, I know it was driven by PMO and not necessarily her, but you have to care about

00:40:31.000 something enough if it's a fiscal anchor and how you're going to do it.

00:40:33.420 So I think she will push on the affordability, but I actually think what Freeland's main, um,

00:40:37.800 push is going to be is on the U S and, and, and Trump.

00:40:40.300 We've already seen her come out and say that, or at least speculate that she would, uh, announce

00:40:45.920 a dollar for dollar tariffs, um, with the U S.

00:40:48.580 And I think her, um, she's big on foreign policy.

00:40:52.780 And in this case, I think she wants to be seen as the fighter, um, the fighter against 1.00

00:40:57.000 the bully.

00:40:57.420 So while Mark, I think we'll take a bit more of a domestic, let me, we want to make life

00:41:02.160 better for Canadians.

00:41:02.860 While I fight for you with Donald Trump in a more, I would say, uh, diplomatic way, we're

00:41:08.540 going to see Freeland a way more kind of in his face and focused on tariffs.

00:41:13.320 Uh, just quickly, I think that'll play well for a large segment of the population who isn't

00:41:17.220 a fan of Donald Trump.

00:41:18.740 I think they're going to like seeing someone like Chrystia Freeland take swings and not

00:41:23.000 back down from the rampage of tweets that I'm sure he'll put out if she were to be leader

00:41:28.500 and prime minister.

00:41:29.680 Oh no.

00:41:30.000 He, he puts out truths on social.

00:41:33.540 I had to join truth social so that I could follow the guy and nobody's saying my morning

00:41:39.720 now consists of waking up at around 6am and seeing what he posted in the middle of the

00:41:43.520 night.

00:41:43.980 Uh, that's the first thing.

00:41:46.080 And it used to be, look at the itineraries of the politicians and see what I have to

00:41:49.300 cover.

00:41:49.660 Now it's okay.

00:41:50.560 What did he post?

00:41:51.940 Um, the, the going hard on, on Trump and the tariffs, you're right, could absolutely work

00:41:58.400 in, in her favor.

00:41:59.600 Uh, she's sounding as tough as, if not tougher than Doug Ford and he and his hat have been

00:42:05.020 very popular over the last little while.

00:42:07.640 Uh, and, and, and Ford is actually taking a stronger stand on the dollar for dollar tariff issue

00:42:13.200 than the prime minister has, who's trying to come up the middle and believe it or not,

00:42:18.460 not annoy Alberta as much as he probably wants to.

00:42:23.080 Yeah.

00:42:23.520 But you know what?

00:42:24.060 So here's the thing that scares me.

00:42:25.420 Um, having kind of been part of the original team that was kind of handling NAFTA and Ismika,

00:42:31.540 whatever, Kizma, whatever we're calling it these days, there's a difference here.

00:42:35.640 You, with like, if we talk about the current context of what happened at the first minister's

00:42:40.780 meeting and the approach of what's going to happen, I, I loved seeing everyone with the

00:42:45.860 exception of Danielle Smith kind of come together collectively and take a strong stance towards

00:42:50.900 the U S um, on that note of Danielle Smith, I don't think she's wrong with saying we should

00:42:56.400 not be putting oil on the table, but I think her blase, I don't care about being at the

00:43:00.800 meeting with you guys and taking a stance together is not appropriate.

00:43:03.960 It'll play well in Alberta and you know, she has a very different, uh, domestic political 0.54

00:43:08.720 context and I can understand where she's coming from.

00:43:11.240 She's not playing well in the rest of the country though.

00:43:13.240 No.

00:43:13.800 And I, I, again, I agree with her on oil having to be the last thing that anyone even puts on

00:43:19.400 the tables, you got to be a bit cautious, but when it comes to Donald Trump and Freeland

00:43:24.440 and Carney, you have to look at it from this perspective.

00:43:27.840 The last roundabout, it was challenging.

00:43:30.080 Like, listen, I, I can respect Freeland a lot for kind of being able to put up and, and,

00:43:35.940 and push back on it, but Donald Trump does not respect her.

00:43:39.920 And I think there's a flaw in that.

00:43:41.500 And like, there should always be mutual respect in these discussions, but he was not a fan of

00:43:45.980 her cause she would poke the bear. 1.00

00:43:47.140 Like she was always poking the bear that made conversations difficult and Doug Ford might

00:43:52.040 be poking the bear, but Doug Ford's doing it in a way that I think like, he's, he's like

00:43:57.600 your common guy.

00:43:58.720 He's like, he's talking person to person, but coming off as like kind of not Donald Trump

00:44:04.060 esque, but like he's speaking his language, right?

00:44:06.920 I want him to go negotiate.

00:44:08.960 I, you know what?

00:44:09.920 I, I, it's so wild how Doug Ford has evolved.

00:44:14.120 Like God bless that man.

00:44:15.820 When he put that hat on, I just wanted to give him the biggest hug and say, thank you for

00:44:19.840 doing God's work.

00:44:22.420 Bless his heart.

00:44:23.840 Your thoughts, Karen, on the, uh, on the back and forth across the border.

00:44:27.240 Does either one of them come out ahead in, in dealing with the, with Trump?

00:44:32.380 Some, some Canadians will look at the fact that Donald Trump doesn't like Christian Freeland

00:44:36.340 and say, not only do I want her to be liberal leader, she should be prime minister. 0.95

00:44:40.100 Yeah.

00:44:41.100 And I think, you know, you, you look last month or whenever it was when, when Trudeau

00:44:45.840 and LeBlanc went down to Mar-a-Lago to talk tariffs and the finance minister at that time

00:44:50.420 was Christian Freeland and she didn't go because Donald Trump does not like her.

00:44:54.600 And I think as much as many Canadians might like someone who stands up to the bully, I

00:45:00.160 think in terms of diplomacy, it's, it's not going to be good for Canada.

00:45:03.060 If we have a prime minister who the president of the United States cannot stand.

00:45:07.180 And I think to Sharon's point, you know, to your point, Brian, about if Doug Ford could

00:45:11.380 go negotiate with Trump, we, we'd all be a lot better.

00:45:14.220 There's an interesting sort of context going around where we seem to have 10 to 13 foreign

00:45:19.660 ministers right now trying to negotiate with the U S on, on their province's behalf.

00:45:24.540 And now from a national unity standpoint, I think it's going to raise some challenges

00:45:28.620 in the coming weeks and months.

00:45:30.380 Okay.

00:45:31.100 Then let's close off on this.

00:45:32.700 Cause we've talked a lot about the liberal leadership race, but let's talk about why we're

00:45:36.480 there.

00:45:37.460 And so I'll put it to two liberals.

00:45:40.080 I have vented my spleen about this more than once that I am angry that we're in the position

00:45:45.900 we're in without solid federal leadership at this moment when we could get hit really hard.

00:45:55.640 And quite frankly, we may not have a fully functioning government until June.

00:46:00.840 And if we have an election right after, I mean, I'm, I'm sorry, being elected as party leader,

00:46:06.640 uh, and, and then showing up three weeks later with the throne speech, that's not exactly a really

00:46:11.480 functioning government.

00:46:12.860 How do you, uh, both of you feel about this?

00:46:15.960 Are you angry that Trudeau didn't leave earlier?

00:46:18.640 Are you happy he's gone?

00:46:19.760 Do you think he should have stayed on?

00:46:21.660 What are your thoughts?

00:46:22.540 Oh, you know, this is a tough one because, uh, I hear a lot of people frustrated and angry,

00:46:31.860 mainly from the conservative pool saying that like the, the voters need to be able to vote the,

00:46:37.520 the, the next prime minister.

00:46:39.460 And I can appreciate that.

00:46:40.980 But the way our system works is that there's nothing wrong with what's happening.

00:46:44.360 It's not ideal.

00:46:45.220 Um, but we are going to go to the polls.

00:46:48.340 Um, I, I think we have to let it play out and I think we have to, and this is going to sound

00:46:55.180 like whatever, we have to give it a chance because parties, like if this happened to the,

00:46:58.800 this has happened to the conservative party.

00:47:00.420 Like we've seen Kim Campbell, we've seen all these things and we've seen how they play out.

00:47:04.280 John Turner was, um, named prime minister and he didn't have a seat in the house of commons.

00:47:09.040 Yes.

00:47:09.460 And like, it's never ideal, right?

00:47:10.960 It's not ideal at all.

00:47:12.260 And, and I'm looking forward to seeing where like Carney decides that he will run from.

00:47:16.160 But I mean, do you wish that Trudeau had, you know, had a better plan in terms of succession?

00:47:22.080 Well, let's, okay, let's just talk about the elephant in the room.

00:47:25.220 I think there was a level of arrogance from his office thinking that they could tell their

00:47:28.460 finance minister on a Friday before the Fez that she's no longer going to be finance minister. 0.91

00:47:32.640 What did they think was going to happen?

00:47:34.720 Like they're there.

00:47:35.740 This is the level of arrogance that we have come to.

00:47:38.000 Like they thought it would be fine.

00:47:39.220 She'd roll over and say, cool, let's do it.

00:47:41.100 Um, so no, I think that, I think the planning was horrible.

00:47:44.020 I think the foresight was horrible.

00:47:45.420 I think that they did not think this would happen, which is why we are in this ridiculous 0.90

00:47:48.640 position that we're in.

00:47:49.900 Should he have resigned before?

00:47:51.860 Sure.

00:47:52.720 Um, it's just, it's just a wild scenario that I think it's actually quite sad.

00:47:57.500 So yeah, maybe he should have done it before.

00:47:59.960 We're in this really weird, crazy position now where we have no real federal leadership,

00:48:05.700 but all these people vying for it.

00:48:07.940 We've got an outsider who is trying to run to be the prime minister and then we'll have

00:48:12.480 to get a seat.

00:48:13.440 We've got Freeland who is now on this revenge campaign.

00:48:16.560 Like this is bananas.

00:48:17.580 This is all bananas.

00:48:18.740 Yeah.

00:48:19.320 And democracy is messy.

00:48:20.700 The Westminster system might be one of the messiest one.

00:48:23.520 And it's very much confidence and vibes based and like a vibe session, like a vibe session.

00:48:30.740 Some would say, um, you know, it, it's not a good spot for the country.

00:48:34.560 You're facing significant economic threats from a country that's supposed to be our closest

00:48:39.540 ally.

00:48:39.900 And you've got a vacuum of leadership at the top with a prime minister who's sitting, who

00:48:45.840 is a lame duck because he's dipping in a couple of weeks on March 9th.

00:48:50.780 And you've got two people, well, more people, but two real front runners vying to replace

00:48:56.160 him.

00:48:56.440 One of them, to your guys' point, doesn't have a seat in the House of Commons.

00:48:59.900 So when they table the throne speech, he'll, I don't know, be waving from the gallery.

00:49:03.620 And then you have a finance minister, or a former finance minister, I should say, who

00:49:08.680 the president of the United States isn't a fan of.

00:49:10.640 And all of this is happening at a time when Canadians are looking to their elected officials

00:49:15.160 for leadership and not really seeing anything.

00:49:18.920 I think that, um, after this leadership race, um, whenever we do have a functioning government

00:49:24.140 again, I, I'm going to back something I never would have a couple of years ago.

00:49:28.480 And that is that every party need, if you want to contest in a federal election, your party

00:49:35.100 needs to follow the same rules as a general election for leadership races and nominations,

00:49:40.580 because it is, you know, we didn't think about it before, but now we've got foreign interference.

00:49:45.940 We know what's going on.

00:49:47.280 And we're having our next prime minister selected by 14 year old Chinese exchange students.

00:49:53.640 Uh, that is beyond craziness.

00:49:57.060 And there's nothing the party can do about it right now.

00:50:00.040 Would, would both of you back that everyone just saying, all right, inside the party, we're

00:50:04.460 following the same rules as, uh, elections Canada has.

00:50:07.820 Yeah.

00:50:08.560 To be fair, they did change the leadership rules for, for, um, not members of what do they

00:50:14.300 call it?

00:50:14.740 Registered liberals.

00:50:15.860 Yeah.

00:50:16.020 Um, but to your point, no, absolutely.

00:50:18.100 But they also admitted, or they did during the foreign interference inquiry, that they

00:50:23.340 had no way of telling who was a citizen, a, a permanent resident or the 14 year old Chinese

00:50:29.080 exchange student voting for hand on.

00:50:32.460 Um, so yeah, I think that's where we've got to go, Sharon.

00:50:36.040 I, you know what?

00:50:36.660 I agree.

00:50:37.080 Like as much as I want to sign my, my two little adorable cats up to vote for the next leader.

00:50:42.120 Uh, no.

00:50:43.040 And you know what?

00:50:43.600 It's times are different.

00:50:44.800 Like the times are very different and this is something that there's some liberals, it's

00:50:48.080 funny.

00:50:48.320 There's some, there's a liberal on the Freeland team or was on the Freeland team.

00:50:51.560 I don't even know who was pissed off by the rule changes because the way they've handled

00:50:55.340 nominations in the past predominantly has been by pulling in, um, of like we, we like

00:51:01.760 non-citizens or non-PR residents, uh, in masses in buses and getting them to vote because

00:51:06.980 like it's all about, it's a numbers game, right?

00:51:09.000 You want the most number of people.

00:51:10.220 Do they participate in the party?

00:51:11.780 No.

00:51:12.040 Do they believe in the party?

00:51:12.920 Probably not.

00:51:13.440 Uh, did they get a free lunch out of it?

00:51:15.400 Yeah.

00:51:15.760 So they're there, but I, I do agree.

00:51:18.040 I think there needs to be some consistent, um, clear standard practices that everyone

00:51:22.400 has to follow so we don't run into this weird nonsense that we're in right now.

00:51:26.120 All right.

00:51:26.660 Well, uh, thank you for taking the time with me today.

00:51:28.880 Uh, great to get, uh, insights from, uh, from two well-known and, uh, well-respected liberals.

00:51:34.560 And I'm sure we'll chat again, uh, after we know who the leader is, who the prime minister

00:51:38.360 is.

00:51:38.720 And when we come around to election, thanks so much.

00:51:41.560 Full comment is a post-media podcast.

00:51:44.880 My name is Brian Lilly, your host.

00:51:46.400 This episode was produced by Andre Proulx, theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:51:50.100 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:51:52.520 Remember, you can subscribe to full comment on Apple podcasts, YouTube podcasts, Amazon,

00:51:57.020 wherever you get your podcast, hit the subscribe button, leave us a review, hit like, share

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00:52:04.480 Thanks for listening.

00:52:05.220 Until next time, I'm Brian Lilly.

Full Comment - January 20, 2025

The dirty fight shaping up between Carney and Freeland

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