Full Comment - The former CBC host blowing the lid off its bias and dysfunction

00:00:00.860 Where's your playlist taking you?

00:00:03.680 Down the highway? To the mountains?

00:00:06.180 Or just into daydream mode while you're stuck in traffic?

00:00:09.580 With over 4,000 hotels worldwide,

00:00:12.000 Best Western is there to help you make the most of your getaway.

00:00:15.500 Wherever that is.

00:00:16.880 Because the only thing better than a great playlist

00:00:19.000 is a great trip.

00:00:22.720 Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western.

00:00:26.240 Book direct and save at bestwestern.com

00:00:30.000 getting ready for a game means being ready for anything like packing a spare stick i like to

00:00:39.780 be prepared that's why i remember 988 canada's suicide crisis helpline it's good to know just

00:00:45.940 in case anyone can call or text for free confidential support from a trained responder

00:00:50.740 anytime 988 suicide crisis helpline is funded by the government in canada

00:00:55.700 When you let aero truffle bubbles melt, everything takes on a creamy, delicious, chocolatey glow.

00:01:03.960 Like that pile of laundry. You didn't forget to fold it.

00:01:06.880 Nah, it's a new trend. Wrinkled chic.

00:01:09.740 Feel the aero bubbles melt. It's mind-bubbling.

00:01:15.020 He's been telling people that CBC tried to silence him for about a year now.

00:01:19.840 Well, just recently, Travis Danraj, the former host of Canada Tonight with Travis Danraj, showed up at a parliamentary committee and named names.

00:01:29.640 When it came to politics, interviews were blocked under guardrails governed by an internal document never made public titled Parameters for Political Guests.

00:01:38.360 Political access was centralized. Booking decisions controlled elsewhere.

00:01:43.100 It did not happen once. It became a pattern. It became the standard.

00:01:48.180 Power and Politics, hosted by David Cochran,

00:01:50.340 was given gatekeeping authority over which politicians could appear on Canada tonight.

00:01:55.440 When I questioned that control and who was in control, I was viewed as disruptive.

00:02:01.680 At the same time, I raised concerns about a toxic environment.

00:02:05.360 After I sat down with Speaker Greg Fergus for a conversation on Black History Month,

00:02:10.760 Chief Political Correspondent Rosemary Barton circulated internal communications

00:02:15.180 questioning my program, copying senior leadership,

00:02:19.200 insinuating she or Mr. Cochran should have done the interview.

00:02:23.720 Hello, welcome to the Full Comment Podcast.

00:02:25.820 I'm Brian Lilly, your host, and joining us to talk about his testimony,

00:02:29.740 his experience at CBC, and why the state broadcaster needs to change

00:02:34.340 is Travis Danras.

00:02:35.640 Travis, thanks for joining us.

00:02:38.060 Thank you for having me.

00:02:39.300 I thought to myself today, what can I do to dissuade the conspiracy theories

00:02:43.420 that this is all, you know, made up and right wing.

00:02:47.200 And I thought, you know what?

00:02:48.060 I should go on with Brian Lilly to do that.

00:02:53.460 Well, look, you and I have known each other for quite a while.

00:02:57.100 We used to work together at Queen's Park,

00:02:59.040 different media outlets, but, you know, in the gallery.

00:03:03.400 Tell people how you ended up at CBC. 1.00

00:03:06.640 How did you go from being a pain in Doug Ford's ass 1.00

00:03:09.720 to being a pain in CBC's? 1.00

00:03:12.140 Well, which is a good point to raise, right? Because you remember me at Queen's Park. And I don't think anyone at that point in time would say that I was a champion for the Conservatives. I ran into David Pacini, who was in Ottawa on Tuesday. I was coming out of the committee hearing and he was like, yeah, you definitely were not. But I was at Queen's Park.

00:03:35.840 And just for people who don't know, David Puccini is a cabinet minister in the Ford government and someone you would have harassed regularly when you were there.

00:03:45.360 Correct, correct.

00:03:46.800 So, you know, how did you – you've been in media a long time.

00:03:50.140 I mean, you used to be in entertainment media.

00:03:51.980 You've done political media.

00:03:53.780 Give us a bit of your background.

00:03:55.660 Sure, yeah.

00:03:56.380 So, I mean, I am from Calgary.

00:03:58.000 I, you know, I started working in television when I was a teenager and I worked at the CBC when I came to Toronto and I was going to university at Ryerson studying radio and television arts.

00:04:09.000 I worked on all kinds of different shows, the NHL awards.

00:04:11.680 I worked on the Air Force and John-O-Vision.

00:04:14.700 And then I started to kind of go, you know, I left.

00:04:19.220 You have to leave the Toronto market to come back to the Toronto market, I suppose.

00:04:23.120 So I went to Winnipeg.

00:04:25.000 I worked at CBC Edmonton for a bit.

00:04:26.600 And then I came back to Toronto and worked at CP24. I did a stint at CTB National News. And then I went to Global and was the Queen's Park Bureau Chief there for a few years. And I got an email while I was there from the editor-in-chief of CBC encouraging me to apply for this job that they had in Ottawa as a senior parliamentary reporter.

00:04:48.000 And I was kind of, you know, okay with the gig that I had.

00:04:52.240 It was a pretty good gig.

00:04:53.640 But I thought to myself, okay, well, this is a step up, right?

00:04:56.780 And so that has kind of been the progression of my career.

00:05:00.660 But I think that's important.

00:05:02.620 They recruited you.

00:05:04.760 Yeah, they did.

00:05:06.340 Yeah.

00:05:06.800 Well, and I mean, it was a pitch, right?

00:05:09.080 Because, you know, usually you go to a job for more money.

00:05:12.040 This was not that.

00:05:13.260 I took a pay cut to go back.

00:05:15.200 Because when I left the CBC, you know, right before I went to CP24, I went to my boss, who's now an executive, and I said, you know, I want to be here, but I've been casual for, I think it was four or five years.

00:05:29.240 And she said, leave and then come back.

00:05:31.700 And I said, because I do believe in public broadcasting.

00:05:34.040 So I did that.

00:05:34.720 I left, and then when there was this opportunity, I thought about it, and I said, okay, fine.

00:05:38.480 I don't really want to move to Ottawa and pick up my life from Toronto.

00:05:42.280 I'm pretty comfortable here, but let me do this.

00:05:44.880 And I did that.

00:05:46.820 Can we just pause for a second?

00:05:48.640 And you mentioned something that I am very familiar with, but I don't think a lot of people know.

00:05:54.480 You said you were casual.

00:05:57.200 CBC loves to do stories on bad practices, bad HR practices, bad workplaces.

00:06:05.400 I've known people who covered Parliament Hill for a decade, or City Hall, and they have been casual the entire time, which means you're not full-time, you don't get all the benefits that everyone else gets, correct?

00:06:23.480 Right. And it is, you know, there is a movement afoot within CBC. It's quiet, but, you know, internally it is known that, you know, these casuals are fighting for their rights.

00:06:34.600 When I was casual, what would happen sometimes is that, you know, you're at the point where you'd flip over.

00:06:39.600 And then right before that, all of a sudden, you're not scheduled for a week or two so that you revert back.

00:06:45.460 So it's this constant kind of game of like trying to reach the marker, but never being able to get there.

00:06:51.920 And it's really unfortunate what they do to casuals at CBC because, you know, they are there sometimes working for years and years and years as essentially full-time employees.

00:07:03.520 but they don't have all of the same, you know.

00:07:06.980 I'm telling you, I have never been anything but a full-time employee with benefits working in the private sector media.

00:07:16.500 And it was only working close to people from CBC that I found out about this.

00:07:21.840 And especially, as you say, I forget what the marker is, but, you know, once you've worked a certain amount of full-time regular hours,

00:07:29.160 you automatically go in and then suddenly, oh, they're off for two weeks.

00:07:33.520 Yeah. Not because they're taking a vacation. They're just not scheduled. And this is just a horrible way to run things. So I just wanted to point that out because CBC likes to portray itself in a certain fashion and they don't live up to their own expectations, the expectations they have for other people.

00:07:52.180 Well, and it's unfortunate that the mainstream media doesn't take a closer look at some of these issues. The casual story is a big story. I'm sure there are a lot of people that have been affected that would be willing to speak even off the record or on background. Some might come out and speak publicly, but it's a major hurdle.

00:08:15.200 So to get back to your original question in terms of kind of like how I got there, that was how I got there. It was at Global. They basically recruited me. I went through their process and I became parliamentary senior reporter. I flew around with the prime minister. I was in Ottawa. I backfilled on power and politics. And then I came back to Toronto for a number of reasons, including, you know, the environment in that bureau.

00:08:38.960 I will just say it was somewhat frosty from certain individuals.

00:08:43.600 You know, there's some great individuals there, still there, that I chat with and talk to and I consider friends.

00:08:52.020 But there was a level of coldness from certain individuals.

00:08:55.600 So I came back to Toronto and I was working on The National.

00:08:59.200 I was a Toronto reporter.

00:09:00.960 And then I would do these stints, again, on contract with Marketplace.

00:09:05.460 The Marketplace is also, you know, they've had three hosts for I don't know how long, but again, it's like these contracts where you flip over.

00:09:12.280 And then they offered me this show.

00:09:14.600 They encouraged me to apply for this show, Canada Tonight, which was in now its third iteration because they had lost two hosts previous.

00:09:26.780 And I thought to myself, you know, I was a little hesitant at first because Marketplace, it was enjoying the work that I was doing there in terms of kind of in-depth investigations.

00:09:35.460 in consumer stories. But I thought this opportunity does not come along often to have a prime time

00:09:43.300 show across the country with your face and name. And I can really make a mark here. I can do

00:09:50.460 something with this program that is unique to me. And I think, you know, really relevant to

00:09:57.340 the Canadian story and bring, you know, a wider range of perspectives. And that was how it was

00:10:05.280 branded. I mean, even if you look at the promotional materials, the thumbnails that they had up,

00:10:10.560 the press release that they put out, the job description, this was all in there in terms of

00:10:16.100 bold voice, news leader, booking guests. And so at the beginning when we were in development,

00:10:24.000 I did see some red flags in terms of, okay, these are some things concerning. But I thought, okay,

00:10:31.480 let me just push through. This is the development process. We'll get the show up and up and

00:10:35.260 running and, and it'll be fine. And I called you at that point when I was trying to put together

00:10:40.000 this panel, uh, and I wanted to do something that was unique, that popped the Ottawa bubble,

00:10:45.640 that had a range of perspectives and really kind of opposing perspectives as well. And not kind of

00:10:51.400 like curated and shades of gray, really black and white, uh, you know, opinions, bringing them

00:10:57.320 together so i i remember you calling me and uh i was way on christmas vacation yeah driving around

00:11:06.040 the the california desert and you called and i laughed out loud at you you said i'm hosting this

00:11:11.500 show i want you to come on and i laughed out loud at you uh and i was surprised by because i was

00:11:18.820 like why why wouldn't you be able to come on yeah because they've um so many times i'd gone through

00:11:25.300 the, uh, there's a process at CBC. Not every show does it. Your show did not, but a lot of other

00:11:31.160 shows, they call you up and they say, are you available? And you say, yes. Okay. Well, we have

00:11:34.640 to schedule a pre-interview or sometimes a pre pre-interview and you'll do two interviews before

00:11:39.620 you go on. And they ask you every possible question they could. And then they take your

00:11:44.960 answers to a producer or the host. And then they decide if you're going to come on. And I would get

00:11:50.680 through the pre-interview and then they'd say, sorry, we're going in a different direction.

00:11:54.300 we're not having you on. So I laughed and said, they'll never let me on. And you said,

00:12:02.340 no, I assure you they will. And I said, I will only do this for you. If you can get me on,

00:12:08.400 I will come on. And I forget how many times I was on, maybe four or five. And you promised real

00:12:18.260 debate and you and your guests delivered. I remember being on with Jagmeet Singh's brother,

00:12:23.480 and um we're sitting on the couch together i forget who the third guest was that day

00:12:30.520 the the bell rang or you you introduced the segment and gurutan just jumped in and started

00:12:37.000 laying uh haymakers on me and i thought okay it's on and we had a really uh good tv really good

00:12:44.620 debate that was still respectful and but you could tell that we're going at each other and and at the

00:12:51.220 end, we shook hands and walked out to the subway together chatting, you know, talking about family,

00:12:57.260 talking about work, stuff like that. Like it was a real debate that you too often don't see

00:13:02.240 on TV. You were on with Sheila Copps too. Yeah. Yep. And, but the, you used to get flooded with

00:13:09.200 complaints for having people, me or people like me on. Well, it was not, it was not the typical

00:13:15.700 segment that you would see on CBC. And so it was not really kind of reflective of the coverage that

00:13:22.120 was kind of on either side of me. And so sure, it was probably a bit jarring for the, you know,

00:13:29.980 the regular CBC viewer to see Brian Lilly on a panel with Gauratan Singh. However, I did think

00:13:37.260 that there was value in having that conversation and kind of reaching a broader audience. You have

00:13:43.860 a distinct audience. And I think having folks like you on would, you know, maybe pique the

00:13:48.860 interest of some folks to see what's going on here. Let me actually tune in and look at this

00:13:53.980 conversation. But, you know, I look back now and I think to myself, was there some kind of effort

00:13:58.940 to say, okay, let's let them do this for a bit and then we'll pull it back. And that is what

00:14:04.500 happened essentially, right? I mean, I was able to do the panel for a very short amount of time

00:14:08.860 before it got canceled.

00:14:12.680 And then they're saying, you know,

00:14:13.760 oh, well, we didn't say it was actually going to be canceled.

00:14:17.240 If you look at when I said it was canceled

00:14:19.520 and then all of the shows after, it never appeared again.

00:14:24.380 So there's CBC's version of reality

00:14:27.540 and then there is the truth, right?

00:14:30.260 So, and of course, CBC is entitled to, you know,

00:14:33.380 their story and they have, you know,

00:14:36.040 put out statements saying that I'm mischaracterizing things

00:14:38.800 which is their right. And this will be tested in the Canadian Human Rights Commission. However,

00:14:43.400 I thought it was really unfortunate. And there were issues in terms of equity as well on these

00:14:48.660 panels, which I was, you know, really quite upset about behind the scenes, and I would push back.

00:14:54.040 So tell me about that. I got paid. I insisted that I get paid because I know CBC pays its guests,

00:15:00.320 and I thought I may as well get some of my money back. And so not an insignificant amount, I think

00:15:07.000 five hundred dollars in appearance and it would take me about an hour you know time getting there

00:15:13.660 time on and then leaving it's about an hour that's pretty good i mean i also think maybe they thought

00:15:19.620 okay if we didn't pay if we didn't pay brian lily it might become an issue but they didn't

00:15:24.520 pay others right uh and and so it was this thing behind the scenes where we'd always be kind of

00:15:32.160 like and i mean the team had an issue with it as well but they were just like okay well we can

00:15:36.980 pay three people or something like that this week. Whereas other programs had robust funding.

00:15:44.860 So I raise these concerns repeatedly. If you're going to approve a panel on the show, then fund

00:15:51.320 it accordingly. Don't create this inequitable situation where you're choosing who gets paid

00:15:58.000 and who is not getting paid that is contributing the exact same way. And it kind of flies in the

00:16:04.980 face of all of these values and statements that they put out when it comes to DEI. This is

00:16:13.940 something that is pretty clear cut. Somebody is doing a job that somebody else is doing the exact

00:16:20.660 same thing. They should be getting equal compensation. And that was not the case. I,

00:16:25.920 you know, raised these concerns all the way to the DEI department. I have a mail track because I was

00:16:31.200 an investigative reporter that email was opened once and never looked at again so they didn't

00:16:36.260 take these concerns seriously instead they thought let's cancel the panel but i trucked on and then

00:16:42.060 of course you know as i outlined at the beginning of my statement and committee there was the

00:16:46.380 infamous tweet incident the well just before the tweet incident you uh you mentioned one of the

00:16:52.920 people that you were given a list saying you can't book these people they're ours they belong to power

00:16:58.260 and politics was Rob Benzie.

00:17:01.060 Rob Benzie is a reporter

00:17:02.700 at the Toronto Star. He's a French, a great guy.

00:17:04.560 And you and I have worked alongside

00:17:06.380 Benzie. I guarantee 1.00

00:17:08.500 you, he gets paid when he goes on

00:17:10.100 Power and Politics.

00:17:12.300 These guys get paid in the other

00:17:14.300 shows, so paying some and not paying others.

00:17:17.640 And

00:17:18.200 you mentioned at committee

00:17:20.220 that sometimes it was

00:17:22.140 people of color not getting paid,

00:17:24.220 while white dudes like me were

00:17:26.340 getting paid. And

00:17:28.180 you raised that with the department that you

00:17:30.120 would think would be very attuned to that

00:17:31.820 and they didn't do anything

00:17:33.640 they didn't do anything

00:17:35.120 let me ask you about the Melissa Lantzman

00:17:38.040 incident

00:17:38.920 what happened there

00:17:41.360 you booked the

00:17:43.620 deputy leader of the

00:17:46.020 Conservative Party of Canada

00:17:47.520 so they approached us

00:17:49.180 at that point they had

00:17:52.180 a boycott of

00:17:53.960 Conservative MPs going on

00:17:55.920 power and politics right

00:17:57.420 Well, the Conservative Party at that point in time had raised concerns about what they viewed as political bias from particular programs and particular hosts on the network.

00:18:14.100 David Cochran and Rosemary Barton.

00:18:16.600 And so I'm not saying anyone's name here, but I know that concerns were raised.

00:18:23.960 And I know that management was aware of this concern. And they said to me, we know it's a problem, we're going to have to do something about this. But I said to them, you know, while this issue is being worked on, because it is a problem, and we should probably look at some of the root causes for why this is the case.

00:18:47.520 We can't just not have conservatives on the network and only in clips.

00:18:52.580 That doesn't make any sense.

00:18:54.720 And it also, to me, is in contravention of what we are supposed to do when it comes to our mandate.

00:19:01.740 And I went so far as to go into the Broadcasting Act and look for the subsection, subsection 11, whatever, and lay all of this out in great detail a number of times.

00:19:14.900 And then at one point I was told, and I said to them, this is, we also have to remember the timeline here because we're going into an election period. And so it is even more critical to have all of these political voices on the network.

00:19:29.640 So, you know, they said to me at one point, there's going to be a review of this policy.

00:19:35.260 We understand your concerns.

00:19:36.780 And so I was optimistic that, okay, if these folks get in the room, you know, all of the news leaders and review this, they will realize that it's problematic for a number of reasons.

00:19:50.040 They allegedly did this review.

00:19:52.500 I said, how did that go?

00:19:53.800 Oh, we're going to stick with it.

00:19:55.040 So anyway, so, you know, I had known Melissa Lansman from when she was on staff on the Ford campaign. She became the deputy leader. There was a, you know, pre-existing relationship there as, you know, somebody that I knew kind of behind the scenes in politics.

00:20:14.720 And now it's somebody that I'm covering, that we have to cover all the time.

00:20:18.880 And I thought, you know, this is an interesting opportunity to have the deputy leader on.

00:20:23.020 And it was right before like a caucus retreat.

00:20:26.260 And so I said, I'm in studio and I said, yes, but because I was so fearful of getting in trouble, I looped management.

00:20:35.760 And they said, oh, you looped management.

00:20:38.380 That's, you know, bad optics for us.

00:20:40.940 I'm like, okay, but, but, but I'm, I'm not allowed to have a conversation in terms of

00:20:46.240 having her on the show.

00:20:47.280 And so then it went to other programs and there was a back and forth and, you know,

00:20:52.560 it was, it was this craziness right before we went on air.

00:20:56.560 And eventually, you know, I made the decision or the team made the decision.

00:21:00.500 We have to do her now.

00:21:02.840 Um, and so we did.

00:21:05.220 And then I was forced to send an apology note for having her on the show.

00:21:10.940 You had to apologize to the folks in Ottawa?

00:21:13.900 I had to apologize from, yes.

00:21:16.100 It was a very, like, I am so sorry.

00:21:20.240 I will never do this again.

00:21:22.460 How could I do such an egregious thing as to have a politician on my show that, you know, other programs aren't able to secure?

00:21:32.400 And so it was kind of diminishing me, right?

00:21:35.080 it was diminishing. It was putting my, my show was second class. And I felt like I was second

00:21:43.900 class. I raised this. Like, I mean, there, there are, there are documents and G chats where I'm

00:21:48.740 like, I'm really kind of, you know, this is continuing to happen. And I said, I feel like

00:21:53.400 I'm second class at this, this network. Um, when it comes to just, do we only want

00:22:00.480 one group of individuals interviewing people in power.

00:22:06.380 Now, I know, you know, I talked to Ben Mulrooney about this yesterday on his show,

00:22:09.340 and he said, well, there's a pecking order everywhere.

00:22:11.320 I get that, Brian.

00:22:12.800 I've worked at, you know, all the networks,

00:22:15.800 except, you know, City TV and Rogers.

00:22:18.320 I understand that.

00:22:20.980 There is.

00:22:22.360 However, having a ban on politicians coming on a primetime program

00:22:29.200 and being told, well, you don't really need to cover politics.

00:22:32.380 That's part of the daily news.

00:22:34.880 I'm sorry.

00:22:36.160 You know, if a politician appears on one program,

00:22:40.740 okay, is there a need for them to be immediately after on the next program?

00:22:45.000 Probably not.

00:22:46.060 However, if they're not appearing at all,

00:22:48.660 and there's only one party's view that really is expressed,

00:22:55.520 we should have the opposing side.

00:22:59.200 And there was an issue on housing, right? And I said, you know, Randy Boissoneau has been on for X amount of time, you know, with the liberal government talking points. I feel like we should get the opposition critic on that. No, can't do it. Sorry.

00:23:15.860 when i've been a host in both tv and radio i have uh you know certain guests would be exclusive to

00:23:27.420 certain shows that's normal um you know it's like i would establish a relationship with a certain

00:23:34.360 guest and they would be a regular well then other shows were told uh okay you can't book that person

00:23:41.140 or you have to coordinate um i have um can i just stop you there for a second can i tell you

00:23:47.860 something on that point so these guardrails quote unquote were set up around certain programs

00:23:54.900 i asked for equitable guardrails around intersection right so say if you were to come

00:24:01.800 on intersection you'd be branded as as that so i was like okay if this is the way that things are

00:24:08.540 being done um i just want to level the playing field here this is all an email no you can't do

00:24:16.540 that so so there are two sets of rules so the you know when i was on tv i had the biggest show on the

00:24:26.120 network i had the most viewers that allowed me to be able to say at certain times um no you you know

00:24:32.740 I want that guest, but there was never a, you can't talk to anybody from this political party

00:24:40.680 or this, you know, sector of the economy or what have you, that only Brian can speak to these

00:24:47.400 people. That, that would be ridiculous. Right. Well, the, you know, and, and I will tell you 0.92

00:24:53.520 as well, that this was something that came into place. So there, you know, there are hosts that

00:25:03.040 went to, there was a host that went to another network who was very well respected in the newsroom

00:25:08.500 and this policy was not in place when they were there. This came into effect after and it came

00:25:14.340 into effect. I'm assuming that's Vashie Capellos. I can either confirm or deny. However, I will just

00:25:20.800 say this vashi capellis i think she's a fantastic host and a great person um and i think that she

00:25:28.060 does a good job in terms of balance uh and kind of you know not pulling her punches with anyone

00:25:34.740 um but it came into place after there was a an incident uh when michael chong was supposed to

00:25:42.940 appear on uh cbc with a all mic'd up and ready to go on air with hannah t you remember this

00:25:50.280 Yes. And they pulled it. I've talked to Hannah about this. I've talked to Michael about this. That was a demand that he be pulled. It was about something happening and breaking news. And so Hannah was having him on. And my understanding is the team at Power and Politics said, no, we want to talk to him in several hours from now and canceled it while he was waiting to go on.

00:26:18.220 And after, I believe he'd already been, yeah, he'd already been, they promoted that he was coming on, correct?

00:26:27.200 Yes. And I think, I believe so. I'd have to double check on that.

00:26:30.500 However, I do feel like the narrative that was constructed around that incident really was unfortunate because certain on-air individuals had to bear the brunt of those decisions when they were not involved in that, you know, and it really kind of fell on management in particular programs that they made that decision.

00:26:58.160 And they and, you know, Michael Chong walked, you know, down the street and did CTV instead. So I don't. And so then they're like, OK, well, we need coordination around this so there's not confusion. So we know, you know, that it always has to go here. It can never go anywhere else.

00:27:14.760 And so then this, you know, these protocols were put into place, which were problematic from the beginning, right? Because this document that they had framed as coordination and it was weaponized to be veto control. It was weaponized to put one show subordinate to another.

00:27:37.720 We've got to take a break, pay some bills.

00:27:40.400 But when we come back, I do want to talk about you putting out a tweet about the CEO and then suddenly you're not on air.

00:27:48.740 Want to go electric without sacrificing fun?

00:27:52.340 That's the Volkswagen ID.4, all electric and thoughtfully designed to elevate your modern lifestyle.

00:27:58.200 The Volkswagen ID.4 is fun to drive with instant acceleration that makes city streets feel like open roads.

00:28:04.600 plus a refined interior with innovative technology always at your fingertips.

00:28:09.540 The all-electric ID.4. You deserve more fun.

00:28:12.660 Visit VW.ca to learn more.

00:28:15.200 SUVW. German-engineered for all. 0.98

00:28:19.640 There were so many missed opportunities to catch this before the devastating thing happened.

00:28:26.440 A third of them we found literally in the phone book.

00:28:29.900 These people were not afraid.

00:28:32.200 They knew that nobody was effectively hunting them.

00:28:34.840 They knew they had escaped justice, that they were going to die in their beds.

00:28:39.280 When I give talks at law schools, it's that the charter ultimately is empowering a minority.

00:28:43.080 And it's empowering a minority that's a guild across the country.

00:28:46.100 And it's a fairly elite guild, and the guild is lawyers.

00:28:47.920 Families who were split by referendum and brothers and sisters who never talked to each other for years after the referendum

00:28:56.100 because they were so angry at each other because of emotions on both sides.

00:29:00.780 The reason he was assassinated was not because he was trying to put a satellite into space,

00:29:05.700 but because the gun that he was creating had other applications that made him and the gun very dangerous.

00:29:15.920 It's finally here. A new season of Canada Did What?

00:29:19.760 Post-media podcast that revisits the big Canadian political events you might think you remember

00:29:25.140 and tells you the real story you never knew.

00:29:28.200 I'm Tristan Hopper.

00:29:29.740 The voices you just heard are from our brand new season two.

00:29:33.520 We will unpack some of the pivotal moments that helped define our country,

00:29:37.280 often without a vote, usually without a plan,

00:29:39.880 and sometimes without anyone admitting what they've done.

00:29:43.680 We'll find out how Canada became a welcoming paradise

00:29:46.720 for untold numbers of Nazi war criminals after the Second World War.

00:29:51.320 We let them build monuments to their wartime exploits

00:29:54.080 and even ended up honoring a Nazi fighter in the House of Commons.

00:29:58.140 And I'm sorry to say that none of that happened by accident.

00:30:01.880 We'll bring you the little-known story of a troubled Canadian rocket scientist

00:30:05.560 who turned to a sinister life of selling giant guns to terrible people.

00:30:10.980 And if that sounds like a spy novel, it ends like one too.

00:30:14.360 You'll hear the behind-the-scenes story of Quebec's attempted secession from Canada

00:30:18.180 and how very close we came to a political crisis

00:30:21.420 that would have made Brexit look like a picnic.

00:30:24.580 You'll hear about how the much-celebrated Charter of Rights and Freedoms

00:30:28.460 turned into something its creators never wanted,

00:30:31.600 and how many of the most extravagant warnings about the document

00:30:34.800 were all quickly proven true.

00:30:37.420 And you'll even hear about how authorities bungled multiple chances

00:30:41.040 to stop the deadliest terrorist attack in our country's history

00:30:44.000 and then proceeded to pretend it never happened.

00:30:47.500 These aren't dusty history lessons.

00:30:49.620 There are stories about power, ambition, madness, and the things about Canada that a lot of people would rather ignore.

00:30:56.420 But not you. You won't want to miss an episode.

00:30:59.740 Subscribe to make sure you get all of Season 2 starting March 2026 anywhere you get your podcasts.

00:31:07.600 So let's talk about the Catherine Tate incident.

00:31:11.220 She had appeared before committee.

00:31:13.400 Who I've never met, by the way.

00:31:14.800 You've never met Catherine Tate.

00:31:16.040 No, I have not.

00:31:16.880 Um, I've met some, uh, past CEOs of CBC and they have not been fans of mine due to my reporting,

00:31:24.620 but, uh, that's another story. But Catherine Tate, uh, had appeared before committee, 0.72

00:31:29.380 uh, there had been layoffs. Uh, she also did an interview, I believe on the national,

00:31:35.220 which is part of why you reached out where she talked about that they might still be handing

00:31:39.920 out bonuses, even though they were in the middle of layoffs. So you decided to ask for an

00:31:46.780 interview is that did i set it up correctly yes well so we had a discussion as a team uh about

00:31:55.240 whether or not we had been thinking for a while actually she was on kind of this you know uh

00:32:00.620 running kind of list of folks that we we would want to have at some point we wanted to have a

00:32:05.180 conversation with her just in general about the network but it became kind of more of a news hook

00:32:10.260 when there was this conversation around bonuses yeah it was a big news story they were telling

00:32:16.140 the government. We're going to have to lay off, I think, 800 people. But don't worry,

00:32:20.240 all the executives will still get their bonuses. Yeah. And so we thought, okay, let's do it. And

00:32:27.500 as a team, it was not an individual decision. As a team, we thought, okay, let's go get this.

00:32:32.760 So it was a Chase producer who reached out to Ms. Tate's office. And then very quickly,

00:32:41.220 it was declined.

00:32:43.680 And so I got forwarded the email thread

00:32:46.140 and I talked to the Chase producer

00:32:48.280 and said no.

00:32:49.380 And I said, well, is it a blanket now?

00:32:51.000 It's like, no, it's not.

00:32:52.040 She's not coming on, just period.

00:32:54.740 And so I tweeted as I was going into the studio this

00:32:58.100 on April 19th at 3.17 p.m.,

00:33:01.660 which has 430,000 views.

00:33:05.300 At a time when the public broadcaster

00:33:06.880 is under increasing scrutiny

00:33:08.100 and when transparency is needed,

00:33:09.800 Canada Tonight requested an interview with CBC President Catherine Tate.

00:33:14.200 We want to discuss new budget funding, what it means for jobs, and the corporation's strategic priorities ahead.

00:33:19.640 Our request was declined.

00:33:21.320 This is unfortunate.

00:33:24.080 And what happened after that?

00:33:27.980 As memory serves, you suddenly were no longer on air.

00:33:31.560 Yeah.

00:33:31.800 And so this was very surprising to me because when I had gone into the office, you know, colleagues saw the tweet and they were saying, good on you for actually calling her out for not having some transparency and accountability and going on one of her own programs to discuss this.

00:33:49.940 I talked to my executive producer who was like, yeah, you know, I don't see anything wrong with it.

00:33:54.500 It's factual.

00:33:56.660 And I went on air that night and it was fine.

00:33:58.600 And then shortly thereafter, I got a call in the morning, which there's, you know, I keep very good notes, Brian, and I was essentially told there are some problems here.

00:34:13.700 There's some big problems here, and you're not going on air tonight.

00:34:20.920 And you're not going on air for a while because we have to haul you in to this disciplinary process.

00:34:29.580 And in fact, you need to stay at home for this.

00:34:32.760 This is going to be done virtually, and HR is involved, and your union is going to be notified, and it is this long investigation.

00:34:41.600 shit is this all or mostly about the tweet or is it about other things okay so so it was about two 0.53

00:34:47.280 things so when they cancel the panel and i think you probably would have been on this email as well 0.88

00:34:52.920 so you have the exact email you can pull it up you could read it it's a very you know just the panel

00:34:59.500 uh is is is on pause i think i said um i would like to know your feedback so that i can take

00:35:08.480 that to management so that they have an idea, not to make an editorial decision, but just

00:35:13.480 so we get a sense from the folks that were contributing on the show, how they thought

00:35:18.360 it was going.

00:35:20.400 That was a problem, I was told, because, you know, they said, oh, well, some people are

00:35:28.840 getting paid.

00:35:30.560 And I said, OK, but don't we want feedback or not, you know, using this as an editorial

00:35:36.160 determination, but we should have kind of all of the input before we decide what's happening here.

00:35:43.520 What they left out of that conversation was that, you know, not everyone was getting paid.

00:35:48.160 And so those were the two things that they put together in this letter to say,

00:35:54.040 we have to go through this process. And it was hell.

00:36:00.220 So I'm just reading the note that you sent out.

00:36:03.840 Yeah, you can read it. I can't.

00:36:06.980 You were frustrated. This is Tuesday, April 16th, 2024. And you detailed how diverse the panel was in every way, shape and form that you could mean that, including diversity of opinion and thought.

00:36:24.040 um you say that you know you asked us for feedback um and that you've got meetings coming up to uh

00:36:33.280 in the coming days to uh to talk about this so feedback would be appreciated if you're to bring

00:36:39.960 it back but there was nothing in that that deserved being hauled in for disciplinary hearings

00:36:46.740 And everyone wrote in, I have all of the feedback right here, and it's from cross parties, cross the spectrum ideologically, from journalists, from, there's one from Mike Treiner here with the Green Party, there's one from Giratown, there's one from, you didn't write in, by the way, you didn't give feedback, but it was all, you know, it was all very positive in terms of the, you know, the, what they thought it brought to the network.

00:37:12.060 uh and so i didn't view that as an issue apparently that was an issue and so uh then i'm in this

00:37:20.220 process and the these went on for for days they were hours long there was there was one specifically

00:37:28.180 about the tweet that went on for hours and hours and i'm sitting there and they're trying to say

00:37:34.420 i editorialized i read you the tweet they're trying to say i editorialized by saying this is

00:37:39.760 unfortunate um and if the perception of bias well there's lots of perception of bias going on

00:37:47.640 elsewhere and i don't see anything being done saying it's unfortunate that someone declined

00:37:52.040 an interview is hardly editorializing you yeah of course you'd be disappointed you asked them to

00:37:58.060 come on because you wanted to speak to them right yeah well exactly and so and and i you know during

00:38:05.580 this process, I raised concerns. I said, it kind of is, this feels really weird for me because the

00:38:12.400 news division should be, you know, there should be a firewall between the news division and the

00:38:18.000 corporate offices here, and we should be able to report on ourselves. And so they were, you know,

00:38:23.900 you can see that they just, they're running around trying to find any kind of in to get me,

00:38:32.260 You know what I mean? On this tweet. But I mean, it was factual. It was there. And then we moved to the panel. And then that was a whole process as well. So, you know, just this whole thing kind of. And I was also under a gag order at that point in time. They told me you cannot speak to anyone. So I was isolated.

00:38:56.120 I remember at one point I said, oh, I mentioned to my brother.

00:38:59.300 They're like, you told your brother?

00:39:01.540 I'm like, well, yeah, I needed to talk to somebody about what was going on with me.

00:39:06.000 So, you know, in the newsroom.

00:39:07.920 How dare you talk to your brother?

00:39:09.080 Yeah, I know.

00:39:09.720 In the newsroom, I think it was pretty clear to folks what had happened.

00:39:13.280 I put the tweet out and then I disappeared.

00:39:15.440 This came up at committee.

00:39:17.660 I think it was Philip Lawrence who asked the question of Miss Tate.

00:39:21.460 And she kind of really just kind of skated around the issue and said there were no repercussions.

00:39:27.220 However, there are AATIP, you know, records that show that there was a conversation that was had on the day before she testified in front of that committee.

00:39:37.500 She was briefed.

00:39:39.120 Yeah, by, you know, senior leadership.

00:39:42.940 So there was awareness there.

00:39:45.240 So, I mean, maybe she just misspoke. 0.89

00:39:48.840 misspoke maybe there's you know some clarification that that is is needed around what exactly

00:39:54.160 transpired but um let me ask how much of this is dysfunction at CBC versus how much of this is 0.98

00:40:04.460 that you're a pain in the butt and a difficult employee I guess so right well yeah I mean I 0.99

00:40:10.540 guess you know stating facts as a journalist is a pain in the in the butt wanting to have 1.00

00:40:15.400 diversity of opinion is a pain in the butt. But I mean, it goes back to this whole idea of 0.97

00:40:20.820 me being a token, right? Should my voice not matter in terms of some of these discussions

00:40:31.940 that are going on in terms of like, the panel on the program, in terms of, you know, some of the

00:40:41.120 the, the booking decisions that, that are made. Well, it felt like that at the beginning and then

00:40:47.020 slowly it started getting stripped away. Uh, as they, as they saw, you know, I wasn't just going

00:40:53.100 to kind of go along to get along in terms of just being a stenographer and teleprompter reader that

00:41:00.040 I actually, in my view, my experience show host should have a large say in what goes on the show

00:41:07.400 that bears their name and i sure i i've dealt with show hosts who do not do that but i i can't work

00:41:15.060 that way so you mentioned token do you think that you were hired because they said oh brown guy

00:41:22.740 that that checks the diversity box and if so did did they assume that they were getting a certain

00:41:31.340 type of brown guy someone that would just go along with all their progressive ideals you know i don't 1.00

00:41:36.040 know Brian if they if they looked at any of my coverage at Queen's Park you know that I was

00:41:43.300 pretty you know uh dogged in terms of my reporting there uh and I'm not a shrinking violet um so I

00:41:50.720 don't know what they thought they were getting uh but I came in to have a voice and use my brain I

00:41:58.360 did not sign up because I wanted to be tokenized as the the little brown boy as I've said um

00:42:05.880 But when I started voicing this stuff, it became a concern for management.

00:42:12.600 And I will also say this, that there is this, you know.

00:42:14.700 So you do think that part of what was going on, both in terms of when they first hired you, when they gave you the show.

00:42:21.440 Well, yeah, this is the diversity show.

00:42:23.940 You know, here's a brown guy.

00:42:25.900 This is the diversity hour, or two hours.

00:42:28.580 It was an hour, two hours, back and forth.

00:42:30.600 I mean, look at the other hosts.

00:42:32.960 And also, I mean, folks look into why those hosts left as well.

00:42:37.520 Like there were problems on this show.

00:42:39.300 And so now I'm the third person to come in to try to, you know, figure out, you know, this time slot.

00:42:51.060 And similar things happened to me.

00:42:56.400 I mean, I, you know, folks will have to speak for themselves in terms of their experiences on the program.

00:43:01.500 but i i kind of knew okay this is they want this to be like the diversity hour

00:43:07.200 okay but is it is it going to be on an equal playing field right but it was it became filler

00:43:15.400 content all we had to do was fill the slot between 7 and 9 p.m not make too much noise

00:43:21.140 and i assure you if i if i did that and i just like just read the prompter we repeat what would

00:43:29.080 happened also is like, we would repeat like 60% of the seven o'clock and the eight o'clock. So

00:43:35.960 it was essentially the same show. Um, if I just kind of did that, I would, I probably would have

00:43:42.360 been fine, but I, I honestly thought I was there for my brain. Well, you, you actually had me

00:43:48.660 watching CBC, um, which, uh, on purpose, you know, I'm not stuck in an airport. You, when you launched

00:43:56.300 the show you had me watching it because it was it was interesting i okay so i asked you can i say

00:44:01.440 one more thing on this though um just related to kind of the the uh dynamic because i i'm sure you

00:44:08.180 know folks are gonna say oh well he was you know he was probably difficult to work with this and

00:44:12.560 that i had a pretty good relationship with the team i mean we used to go out to social events

00:44:17.120 and stuff like i was looking for pictures the other day of us going out for drinks and you know

00:44:21.600 going to look at the eclipse and stuff like that.

00:44:24.280 So the team was young, but, you know,

00:44:28.760 we had a pretty decent relationship.

00:44:32.100 So, yeah, I mean, but that's what's going to happen, right?

00:44:37.800 There will be this narrative that he was a difficult guy to work with.

00:44:41.740 I mean, did I have concerns with management?

00:44:45.160 My issue wasn't with the team more so than the management decisions

00:44:50.200 that were being made.

00:44:51.600 I asked you about, uh, if, if they hired you due to the color of your skin, you said yes. Do you think they also hired you because, uh, or sought you up because you were a pain in the butt to Doug Ford, a conservative premier? 0.96

00:45:06.260 Oh yeah. Well, that's what got their attention. I think, well, maybe, I don't know. Clearly, clearly there's, I got on their radar at some point in time. I think it was probably during COVID because I was on, uh, you know, these calls that we had to be on. 0.91

00:45:21.600 Perhaps they saw that. But I mean, there was clearly a reason why the editor in chief reached out to me. I don't know. I mean, I think that they also, they have to get these quotas, right? Let me read you. I read some of these messages from other folks that I got, but I wasn't able to get into kind of the great detail of it.

00:45:44.660 But this was somebody, and I will just preface this by saying that these are allegations.

00:45:51.780 This is somebody who was an anchor in Vancouver.

00:45:56.860 I've worked in newsrooms across Canada and for me, and for more than one network.

00:46:03.680 And I can say unequivocally that CBC in this specific market was the worst work environment I have ever experienced.

00:46:12.220 The culture there was incredibly toxic.

00:46:15.020 Speaking up or advocating for yourself often came with consequences.

00:46:18.920 There was a strong focus on protecting the image of the corporation,

00:46:22.260 and many people were afraid to speak openly about what they were experiencing.

00:46:26.000 After about a year of working as an anchor there, I was suddenly removed from the anchor desk.

00:46:30.840 I was told the decision was related to the color of my skin.

00:46:33.920 That as a white person, I did not fit the diversity targets they were trying to meet.

00:46:39.980 No concerns about my performance had ever been raised.

00:46:43.940 My frustration was never directed at the individual who stepped into the role.

00:46:48.020 My concern was with the system and the reasoning behind the decision.

00:46:51.500 In my view, the decision reflected tokenism rather than meaningful inclusion.

00:46:55.500 And then they go on to talk about this checkbox that had to be checked.

00:47:00.020 Tell me about the form that producers would have to fill out.

00:47:05.460 So there's, yeah, so there was the form and then there was also, you know, this that I wasn't aware of.

00:47:10.580 But I'll tell you about the forum, and I'll also tell you how that kind of played out in real time when it came to news gathering.

00:47:16.940 So I was pulled into an office when I was on the Consumer Affairs show.

00:47:25.280 And it was a producer, an excellent producer, by the way, who had some real – and had been there for a very long time and had some concerns about this forum that the producers were forced to fill out about diversity.

00:47:38.780 Now, so there's diversity tracking, but you want your metrics to be the right metrics, right?

00:47:46.120 But they would have to go in after, and it's on a couple of shows from what I understood.

00:47:51.280 And I saw this, this forum, and they'd have to go in and after the fact, check off if like, this person is a man, a woman, non-binary, the person that was being interviewed.

00:48:04.340 So you could do a streeter. I could say, hey, can you talk to me about the cost of bread? Oh, yeah, it's really high right now. I think, you know, Canda Foods or whatever it is needs to change their prices. Great. Done. Moving on.

00:48:17.700 Then you're in post-production, and the producer has to sit there and check male, female, gay, straight, bi, asexual, all of these different boxes.

00:48:31.280 I'm like, I'm sorry, what?

00:48:34.160 So I thought that that was problematic.

00:48:36.800 I went to leadership on the program.

00:48:39.360 I then went to – they're like, well, we're told that we have to do this.

00:48:41.840 So then I went to senior leadership in charge of the news division.

00:48:47.140 I said, this is a problem.

00:48:48.520 What kind of metrics are you getting here? 0.85

00:48:51.080 How the hell am I supposed to know if somebody is asexual from asking them the cost of bread? 1.00

00:48:57.100 Sorry, I didn't think to ask that.

00:48:59.480 And nothing was done about that.

00:49:01.340 And then this individual says that, and I didn't even know that they had this.

00:49:05.340 I was told to check a box.

00:49:06.920 I was told that a box was expected to be checked in the system if the person interviewed was a minority.

00:49:11.580 I believe it's important to include a broad range of voices and perspectives,

00:49:14.940 but reducing interview subjects to a checkbox felt like an overly simplistic way, which it is,

00:49:20.460 of approaching something that deserves far more care and thought.

00:49:24.300 I share these experiences because I believe the culture within the CBC should matter to Canadians.

00:49:28.800 Journalism plays an important role in holding others accountable,

00:49:31.760 and that responsibility should extend to the institutions that produce the news.

00:49:36.040 So, yes, is this fake DEI? Is this the facade of DEI?

00:49:41.760 Sure. Is it to get your numbers artificially up? Looks like it. I mean, so there's not enough thought put into this. If you want to put window dressing up and paint the walls, you also have to look at the structure and all the cracks in it that are falling apart and not just do this in terms of the public positioning of the corporation, right?

00:50:05.480 You have to listen to people that this is affecting. And that includes this white anchor who was allegedly taken off the air because they wanted to replace her with somebody who is not white. And that's tokenizing that person as well.

00:50:21.280 By the way, I got an email from someone who worked at CBC in Atlantic Canada saying they were also told they could not ask for interviews with certain politicians without the permission of Ottawa, even if they wanted to ask them about local or regional issues.

00:50:41.240 Yeah, right.

00:50:42.680 You had to get permission from Ottawa.

00:50:44.300 Can I tell you one other thing in terms of how this stuff kind of played out in real time?

00:50:49.320 I remember being on a shoot with a field producer, and this was a younger field producer, and

00:50:55.440 we're collecting, we're gathering, right?

00:50:57.140 We're news gathering.

00:50:58.740 And this field producer, there's this black family that's, you know, walking around this

00:51:05.200 event that we were at, and the producer goes, we need one of them.

00:51:10.580 And then they ran to go get, like, it's literally like a token you put in a machine, and then

00:51:16.320 you win a prize, right?

00:51:17.560 It's like, it's that, but that's, and I thought to myself, I didn't blame the producer because I'm like, well, that's what the, this is what they're expected to get. So of course this is how it's going to play out, but it's reducing, uh, you know, our interview subjects as well to check boxes.

00:51:35.880 Last question to you. Why should anyone care about all of this?

00:51:40.880 There are so many reasons. And I was very, you know, I'm doing this show with you. People will say that I am, again, you know, this is only for the conservatives and only the conservatives ask questions on the committee. But that is unfortunate because I raised some major concerns in terms of a number of issues.

00:51:59.860 I think the conservatives ask questions because they see that there's an issue and the liberals were playing defense. So I said last question, but I'll interrupt myself. And that is, do you think there is a real bias against the conservatives?

00:52:14.840 Yeah, but can I push back for a quick second on the conservative thing? I also think the conservatives are using this for their own, you know, their own playbook, 100%. So I'm being used as a pawn by everybody, right?

00:52:26.060 For sure, for sure. But do you think there is an inherent anti-conservative bias within CBC?

00:52:34.640 Let me just read you one more thing from another person who I did not read, because this is somebody that still works at the network, right?

00:52:48.300 And this is what they said to me as I flip through my pages here.

00:52:52.300 The CBC's political bias is an open secret. No honest person can deny it. It needs to start speaking to all Canadians and end the sanctimonious march toward irrelevance. It's a member of their own staff saying this, right?

00:53:08.060 I've been complaining about it for years. Nothing's been done. I've documented stories, problems inside that are HR issues like you have mentioned. Nothing's been done. So why should people care about your story and the problems you're raising?

00:53:25.160 Because I think if enough noise is made about this, like, listen, I'm aware that I'm being branded as like the anti-CBC guy, which if folks looked a little closer into this, they would realize I'm not, and that I actually do believe in the need for a public broadcaster, and that I worked there for a long time, and that I would not give up a six-figure job full-time with a pension if there weren't serious issues at the public broadcaster.

00:53:54.780 So I think that they should care because there needs to be fairness in terms of employment standards, particularly everywhere, but particularly when public tax dollars are being paid.

00:54:07.040 And there also needs to be balance.

00:54:09.200 The CBC doesn't get tax money from just one section of this country, one party of affiliation.

00:54:21.020 Not just liberal Canadians are paying for the CBC.

00:54:24.320 Green Canadians are, conservative Canadians are.

00:54:27.000 And so they have a duty to represent.

00:54:30.300 If this was a private company, they would not have the same standard.

00:54:33.580 But they have a duty to, with balance, represent all perspectives equally.

00:54:40.420 And I do not think that they are doing that right now.

00:54:43.120 And I don't know where accountability comes in.

00:54:46.120 I hope, and this is why I am speaking out, that I hope that enough noise is raised,

00:54:52.320 that something is actually done,

00:54:54.160 but I have no faith that that's going to happen

00:54:56.140 because what the CBC has done time again

00:54:58.860 in these situations is bury their head,

00:55:02.000 push through the storm,

00:55:03.340 and continue to get funding.

00:55:05.220 So until we see some accountability

00:55:06.500 from Ottawa on Parliament Hill,

00:55:10.260 I don't think anything's going to happen.

00:55:11.620 I don't know what your take on that is.

00:55:13.480 I don't think anything's going to happen,

00:55:15.780 but I'll keep pushing, Travis,

00:55:17.320 because we're paying for it either way.

00:55:19.440 Thanks so much for your time.

00:55:21.160 Cheers. Thanks, Brian.

00:55:22.320 Full Comment is a post-media podcast.

00:55:24.880 My name's Brian Lilly, your host.

00:55:26.540 This episode was produced by Andre Pru.

00:55:28.640 Theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:55:30.040 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:55:32.580 Please remember to hit subscribe, share this on social media,

00:55:35.960 email it to your Aunt May in Whitby.

00:55:38.200 Thanks for listening.

00:55:39.040 Until next time, I'm Brian Lilly.

00:55:45.220 There were so many missed opportunities to catch this

00:55:48.680 before the devastating thing happened.

00:55:51.560 A third of them we found literally in the phone book.

00:55:55.460 These people were not afraid.

00:55:57.700 They knew that nobody was effectively hunting them.

00:56:00.340 They knew they had escaped justice, that they were going to die in their beds.

00:56:04.760 When I give talks at law schools, it's that the charter ultimately is empowering a minority.

00:56:08.580 And it's empowering a minority that's a guild across the country.

00:56:11.600 And it's a fairly elite guild, and the guild is lawyers.

00:56:13.600 Families who were split by referendum and brothers and sisters

00:56:18.720 who never talked to each other for years after the referendum

00:56:21.600 because they were so angry at each other because of the emotions on both sides.

00:56:26.360 The reason he was assassinated was not because he was trying to put a satellite into space,

00:56:31.060 but because the gun that he was creating had other applications

00:56:37.120 that made him and the gun very dangerous.

00:56:41.620 It's finally here.

00:56:43.000 A new season of Canada Did What?

00:56:44.860 a post-media podcast that revisits the big Canadian political events you might think you remember

00:56:50.640 and tells you the real story you never knew.

00:56:53.820 I'm Tristan Hopper. The voices you just heard are from our brand new Season 2.

00:56:59.020 We will unpack some of the pivotal moments that helped define our country,

00:57:02.740 often without a vote, usually without a plan, and sometimes without anyone admitting what they'd done.

00:57:09.160 We'll find out how Canada became a welcoming paradise

00:57:12.320 for untold numbers of Nazi war criminals after the Second World War.

00:57:16.820 We let them build monuments to their wartime exploits

00:57:19.580 and even ended up honoring a Nazi fighter in the House of Commons.

00:57:23.640 And I'm sorry to say that none of that happened by accident.

00:57:27.380 We'll bring you the little-known story of a troubled Canadian rocket scientist

00:57:31.060 who turned to a sinister life of selling giant guns to terrible people.

00:57:36.500 And if that sounds like a spy novel, it ends like one too.

00:57:39.860 You'll hear the behind-the-scenes story of Quebec's attempted secession from Canada,

00:57:43.900 and how very close we came to a political crisis that would have made Brexit look like a picnic.

00:57:50.080 You'll hear about how the much-celebrated Charter of Rights and Freedoms

00:57:53.940 turned into something its creators never wanted,

00:57:56.740 and how many of the most extravagant warnings about the document were all quickly proven true.

00:58:02.920 And you'll even hear about how authorities bungled multiple chances

00:58:06.540 to stop the deadliest terrorist attack in our country's history

00:58:09.500 and then proceeded to pretend it never happened.

00:58:13.000 These aren't dusty history lessons.

00:58:15.140 They're stories about power, ambition, madness,

00:58:17.800 and the things about Canada that a lot of people would rather ignore.

00:58:21.920 But not you!

00:58:23.280 You won't want to miss an episode.

00:58:25.220 Subscribe to make sure you get all of Season 2 starting March 2026

00:58:29.200 anywhere you get your podcasts.

00:58:32.340 Thank you.

Full Comment - March 16, 2026

The former CBC host blowing the lid off its bias and dysfunction

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript