00:01:09.740Feel the aero bubbles melt. It's mind-bubbling.
00:01:15.020He's been telling people that CBC tried to silence him for about a year now.
00:01:19.840Well, just recently, Travis Danraj, the former host of Canada Tonight with Travis Danraj, showed up at a parliamentary committee and named names.
00:01:29.640When it came to politics, interviews were blocked under guardrails governed by an internal document never made public titled Parameters for Political Guests.
00:01:38.360Political access was centralized. Booking decisions controlled elsewhere.
00:01:43.100It did not happen once. It became a pattern. It became the standard.
00:01:48.180Power and Politics, hosted by David Cochran,
00:01:50.340was given gatekeeping authority over which politicians could appear on Canada tonight.
00:01:55.440When I questioned that control and who was in control, I was viewed as disruptive.
00:02:01.680At the same time, I raised concerns about a toxic environment.
00:02:05.360After I sat down with Speaker Greg Fergus for a conversation on Black History Month,
00:02:10.760Chief Political Correspondent Rosemary Barton circulated internal communications
00:02:15.180questioning my program, copying senior leadership,
00:02:19.200insinuating she or Mr. Cochran should have done the interview.
00:02:23.720Hello, welcome to the Full Comment Podcast.
00:02:25.820I'm Brian Lilly, your host, and joining us to talk about his testimony,
00:02:29.740his experience at CBC, and why the state broadcaster needs to change
00:03:12.140Well, which is a good point to raise, right? Because you remember me at Queen's Park. And I don't think anyone at that point in time would say that I was a champion for the Conservatives. I ran into David Pacini, who was in Ottawa on Tuesday. I was coming out of the committee hearing and he was like, yeah, you definitely were not. But I was at Queen's Park.
00:03:35.840And just for people who don't know, David Puccini is a cabinet minister in the Ford government and someone you would have harassed regularly when you were there.
00:03:58.000I, you know, I started working in television when I was a teenager and I worked at the CBC when I came to Toronto and I was going to university at Ryerson studying radio and television arts.
00:04:09.000I worked on all kinds of different shows, the NHL awards.
00:04:11.680I worked on the Air Force and John-O-Vision.
00:04:14.700And then I started to kind of go, you know, I left.
00:04:19.220You have to leave the Toronto market to come back to the Toronto market, I suppose.
00:04:26.600And then I came back to Toronto and worked at CP24. I did a stint at CTB National News. And then I went to Global and was the Queen's Park Bureau Chief there for a few years. And I got an email while I was there from the editor-in-chief of CBC encouraging me to apply for this job that they had in Ottawa as a senior parliamentary reporter.
00:04:48.000And I was kind of, you know, okay with the gig that I had.
00:05:15.200Because when I left the CBC, you know, right before I went to CP24, I went to my boss, who's now an executive, and I said, you know, I want to be here, but I've been casual for, I think it was four or five years.
00:05:29.240And she said, leave and then come back.
00:05:31.700And I said, because I do believe in public broadcasting.
00:05:57.200CBC loves to do stories on bad practices, bad HR practices, bad workplaces.
00:06:05.400I've known people who covered Parliament Hill for a decade, or City Hall, and they have been casual the entire time, which means you're not full-time, you don't get all the benefits that everyone else gets, correct?
00:06:23.480Right. And it is, you know, there is a movement afoot within CBC. It's quiet, but, you know, internally it is known that, you know, these casuals are fighting for their rights.
00:06:34.600When I was casual, what would happen sometimes is that, you know, you're at the point where you'd flip over.
00:06:39.600And then right before that, all of a sudden, you're not scheduled for a week or two so that you revert back.
00:06:45.460So it's this constant kind of game of like trying to reach the marker, but never being able to get there.
00:06:51.920And it's really unfortunate what they do to casuals at CBC because, you know, they are there sometimes working for years and years and years as essentially full-time employees.
00:07:03.520but they don't have all of the same, you know.
00:07:06.980I'm telling you, I have never been anything but a full-time employee with benefits working in the private sector media.
00:07:16.500And it was only working close to people from CBC that I found out about this.
00:07:21.840And especially, as you say, I forget what the marker is, but, you know, once you've worked a certain amount of full-time regular hours,
00:07:29.160you automatically go in and then suddenly, oh, they're off for two weeks.
00:07:33.520Yeah. Not because they're taking a vacation. They're just not scheduled. And this is just a horrible way to run things. So I just wanted to point that out because CBC likes to portray itself in a certain fashion and they don't live up to their own expectations, the expectations they have for other people.
00:07:52.180Well, and it's unfortunate that the mainstream media doesn't take a closer look at some of these issues. The casual story is a big story. I'm sure there are a lot of people that have been affected that would be willing to speak even off the record or on background. Some might come out and speak publicly, but it's a major hurdle.
00:08:15.200So to get back to your original question in terms of kind of like how I got there, that was how I got there. It was at Global. They basically recruited me. I went through their process and I became parliamentary senior reporter. I flew around with the prime minister. I was in Ottawa. I backfilled on power and politics. And then I came back to Toronto for a number of reasons, including, you know, the environment in that bureau.
00:08:38.960I will just say it was somewhat frosty from certain individuals.
00:08:43.600You know, there's some great individuals there, still there, that I chat with and talk to and I consider friends.
00:08:52.020But there was a level of coldness from certain individuals.
00:08:55.600So I came back to Toronto and I was working on The National.
00:09:00.960And then I would do these stints, again, on contract with Marketplace.
00:09:05.460The Marketplace is also, you know, they've had three hosts for I don't know how long, but again, it's like these contracts where you flip over.
00:09:14.600They encouraged me to apply for this show, Canada Tonight, which was in now its third iteration because they had lost two hosts previous.
00:09:26.780And I thought to myself, you know, I was a little hesitant at first because Marketplace, it was enjoying the work that I was doing there in terms of kind of in-depth investigations.
00:09:35.460in consumer stories. But I thought this opportunity does not come along often to have a prime time
00:09:43.300show across the country with your face and name. And I can really make a mark here. I can do
00:09:50.460something with this program that is unique to me. And I think, you know, really relevant to
00:09:57.340the Canadian story and bring, you know, a wider range of perspectives. And that was how it was
00:10:05.280branded. I mean, even if you look at the promotional materials, the thumbnails that they had up,
00:10:10.560the press release that they put out, the job description, this was all in there in terms of
00:10:16.100bold voice, news leader, booking guests. And so at the beginning when we were in development,
00:10:24.000I did see some red flags in terms of, okay, these are some things concerning. But I thought, okay,
00:10:31.480let me just push through. This is the development process. We'll get the show up and up and
00:10:35.260running and, and it'll be fine. And I called you at that point when I was trying to put together
00:10:40.000this panel, uh, and I wanted to do something that was unique, that popped the Ottawa bubble,
00:10:45.640that had a range of perspectives and really kind of opposing perspectives as well. And not kind of
00:10:51.400like curated and shades of gray, really black and white, uh, you know, opinions, bringing them
00:10:57.320together so i i remember you calling me and uh i was way on christmas vacation yeah driving around
00:11:06.040the the california desert and you called and i laughed out loud at you you said i'm hosting this
00:11:11.500show i want you to come on and i laughed out loud at you uh and i was surprised by because i was
00:11:18.820like why why wouldn't you be able to come on yeah because they've um so many times i'd gone through
00:11:25.300the, uh, there's a process at CBC. Not every show does it. Your show did not, but a lot of other
00:11:31.160shows, they call you up and they say, are you available? And you say, yes. Okay. Well, we have
00:11:34.640to schedule a pre-interview or sometimes a pre pre-interview and you'll do two interviews before
00:11:39.620you go on. And they ask you every possible question they could. And then they take your
00:11:44.960answers to a producer or the host. And then they decide if you're going to come on. And I would get
00:11:50.680through the pre-interview and then they'd say, sorry, we're going in a different direction.
00:11:54.300we're not having you on. So I laughed and said, they'll never let me on. And you said,
00:12:02.340no, I assure you they will. And I said, I will only do this for you. If you can get me on,
00:12:08.400I will come on. And I forget how many times I was on, maybe four or five. And you promised real
00:12:18.260debate and you and your guests delivered. I remember being on with Jagmeet Singh's brother,
00:12:23.480and um we're sitting on the couch together i forget who the third guest was that day
00:12:30.520the the bell rang or you you introduced the segment and gurutan just jumped in and started
00:12:37.000laying uh haymakers on me and i thought okay it's on and we had a really uh good tv really good
00:12:44.620debate that was still respectful and but you could tell that we're going at each other and and at the
00:12:51.220end, we shook hands and walked out to the subway together chatting, you know, talking about family,
00:12:57.260talking about work, stuff like that. Like it was a real debate that you too often don't see
00:13:02.240on TV. You were on with Sheila Copps too. Yeah. Yep. And, but the, you used to get flooded with
00:13:09.200complaints for having people, me or people like me on. Well, it was not, it was not the typical
00:13:15.700segment that you would see on CBC. And so it was not really kind of reflective of the coverage that
00:13:22.120was kind of on either side of me. And so sure, it was probably a bit jarring for the, you know,
00:13:29.980the regular CBC viewer to see Brian Lilly on a panel with Gauratan Singh. However, I did think
00:13:37.260that there was value in having that conversation and kind of reaching a broader audience. You have
00:13:43.860a distinct audience. And I think having folks like you on would, you know, maybe pique the
00:13:48.860interest of some folks to see what's going on here. Let me actually tune in and look at this
00:13:53.980conversation. But, you know, I look back now and I think to myself, was there some kind of effort
00:13:58.940to say, okay, let's let them do this for a bit and then we'll pull it back. And that is what
00:14:04.500happened essentially, right? I mean, I was able to do the panel for a very short amount of time
00:17:57.420Well, the Conservative Party at that point in time had raised concerns about what they viewed as political bias from particular programs and particular hosts on the network.
00:18:16.600And so I'm not saying anyone's name here, but I know that concerns were raised.
00:18:23.960And I know that management was aware of this concern. And they said to me, we know it's a problem, we're going to have to do something about this. But I said to them, you know, while this issue is being worked on, because it is a problem, and we should probably look at some of the root causes for why this is the case.
00:18:47.520We can't just not have conservatives on the network and only in clips.
00:18:54.720And it also, to me, is in contravention of what we are supposed to do when it comes to our mandate.
00:19:01.740And I went so far as to go into the Broadcasting Act and look for the subsection, subsection 11, whatever, and lay all of this out in great detail a number of times.
00:19:14.900And then at one point I was told, and I said to them, this is, we also have to remember the timeline here because we're going into an election period. And so it is even more critical to have all of these political voices on the network.
00:19:29.640So, you know, they said to me at one point, there's going to be a review of this policy.
00:19:36.780And so I was optimistic that, okay, if these folks get in the room, you know, all of the news leaders and review this, they will realize that it's problematic for a number of reasons.
00:19:55.040So anyway, so, you know, I had known Melissa Lansman from when she was on staff on the Ford campaign. She became the deputy leader. There was a, you know, pre-existing relationship there as, you know, somebody that I knew kind of behind the scenes in politics.
00:20:14.720And now it's somebody that I'm covering, that we have to cover all the time.
00:20:18.880And I thought, you know, this is an interesting opportunity to have the deputy leader on.
00:20:23.020And it was right before like a caucus retreat.
00:20:26.260And so I said, I'm in studio and I said, yes, but because I was so fearful of getting in trouble, I looped management.
00:20:35.760And they said, oh, you looped management.
00:22:59.200And there was an issue on housing, right? And I said, you know, Randy Boissoneau has been on for X amount of time, you know, with the liberal government talking points. I feel like we should get the opposition critic on that. No, can't do it. Sorry.
00:23:15.860when i've been a host in both tv and radio i have uh you know certain guests would be exclusive to
00:23:27.420certain shows that's normal um you know it's like i would establish a relationship with a certain
00:23:34.360guest and they would be a regular well then other shows were told uh okay you can't book that person
00:23:41.140or you have to coordinate um i have um can i just stop you there for a second can i tell you
00:23:47.860something on that point so these guardrails quote unquote were set up around certain programs
00:23:54.900i asked for equitable guardrails around intersection right so say if you were to come
00:24:01.800on intersection you'd be branded as as that so i was like okay if this is the way that things are
00:24:08.540being done um i just want to level the playing field here this is all an email no you can't do
00:24:16.540that so so there are two sets of rules so the you know when i was on tv i had the biggest show on the
00:24:26.120network i had the most viewers that allowed me to be able to say at certain times um no you you know
00:24:32.740I want that guest, but there was never a, you can't talk to anybody from this political party
00:24:40.680or this, you know, sector of the economy or what have you, that only Brian can speak to these
00:24:47.400people. That, that would be ridiculous. Right. Well, the, you know, and, and I will tell you
00:24:53.520as well, that this was something that came into place. So there, you know, there are hosts that
00:25:03.040went to, there was a host that went to another network who was very well respected in the newsroom
00:25:08.500and this policy was not in place when they were there. This came into effect after and it came
00:25:14.340into effect. I'm assuming that's Vashie Capellos. I can either confirm or deny. However, I will just
00:25:20.800say this vashi capellis i think she's a fantastic host and a great person um and i think that she
00:25:28.060does a good job in terms of balance uh and kind of you know not pulling her punches with anyone
00:25:34.740um but it came into place after there was a an incident uh when michael chong was supposed to
00:25:42.940appear on uh cbc with a all mic'd up and ready to go on air with hannah t you remember this
00:25:50.280Yes. And they pulled it. I've talked to Hannah about this. I've talked to Michael about this. That was a demand that he be pulled. It was about something happening and breaking news. And so Hannah was having him on. And my understanding is the team at Power and Politics said, no, we want to talk to him in several hours from now and canceled it while he was waiting to go on.
00:26:18.220And after, I believe he'd already been, yeah, he'd already been, they promoted that he was coming on, correct?
00:26:27.200Yes. And I think, I believe so. I'd have to double check on that.
00:26:30.500However, I do feel like the narrative that was constructed around that incident really was unfortunate because certain on-air individuals had to bear the brunt of those decisions when they were not involved in that, you know, and it really kind of fell on management in particular programs that they made that decision.
00:26:58.160And they and, you know, Michael Chong walked, you know, down the street and did CTV instead. So I don't. And so then they're like, OK, well, we need coordination around this so there's not confusion. So we know, you know, that it always has to go here. It can never go anywhere else.
00:27:14.760And so then this, you know, these protocols were put into place, which were problematic from the beginning, right? Because this document that they had framed as coordination and it was weaponized to be veto control. It was weaponized to put one show subordinate to another.
00:27:37.720We've got to take a break, pay some bills.
00:27:40.400But when we come back, I do want to talk about you putting out a tweet about the CEO and then suddenly you're not on air.
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00:33:31.800And so this was very surprising to me because when I had gone into the office, you know, colleagues saw the tweet and they were saying, good on you for actually calling her out for not having some transparency and accountability and going on one of her own programs to discuss this.
00:33:49.940I talked to my executive producer who was like, yeah, you know, I don't see anything wrong with it.
00:33:56.660And I went on air that night and it was fine.
00:33:58.600And then shortly thereafter, I got a call in the morning, which there's, you know, I keep very good notes, Brian, and I was essentially told there are some problems here.
00:34:13.700There's some big problems here, and you're not going on air tonight.
00:34:20.920And you're not going on air for a while because we have to haul you in to this disciplinary process.
00:34:29.580And in fact, you need to stay at home for this.
00:34:32.760This is going to be done virtually, and HR is involved, and your union is going to be notified, and it is this long investigation.
00:34:41.600shit is this all or mostly about the tweet or is it about other things okay so so it was about two
00:34:47.280things so when they cancel the panel and i think you probably would have been on this email as well
00:34:52.920so you have the exact email you can pull it up you could read it it's a very you know just the panel
00:34:59.500uh is is is on pause i think i said um i would like to know your feedback so that i can take
00:35:08.480that to management so that they have an idea, not to make an editorial decision, but just
00:35:13.480so we get a sense from the folks that were contributing on the show, how they thought
00:36:06.980You were frustrated. This is Tuesday, April 16th, 2024. And you detailed how diverse the panel was in every way, shape and form that you could mean that, including diversity of opinion and thought.
00:36:24.040um you say that you know you asked us for feedback um and that you've got meetings coming up to uh
00:36:33.280in the coming days to uh to talk about this so feedback would be appreciated if you're to bring
00:36:39.960it back but there was nothing in that that deserved being hauled in for disciplinary hearings
00:36:46.740And everyone wrote in, I have all of the feedback right here, and it's from cross parties, cross the spectrum ideologically, from journalists, from, there's one from Mike Treiner here with the Green Party, there's one from Giratown, there's one from, you didn't write in, by the way, you didn't give feedback, but it was all, you know, it was all very positive in terms of the, you know, the, what they thought it brought to the network.
00:37:12.060uh and so i didn't view that as an issue apparently that was an issue and so uh then i'm in this
00:37:20.220process and the these went on for for days they were hours long there was there was one specifically
00:37:28.180about the tweet that went on for hours and hours and i'm sitting there and they're trying to say
00:37:34.420i editorialized i read you the tweet they're trying to say i editorialized by saying this is
00:37:39.760unfortunate um and if the perception of bias well there's lots of perception of bias going on
00:37:47.640elsewhere and i don't see anything being done saying it's unfortunate that someone declined
00:37:52.040an interview is hardly editorializing you yeah of course you'd be disappointed you asked them to
00:37:58.060come on because you wanted to speak to them right yeah well exactly and so and and i you know during
00:38:05.580this process, I raised concerns. I said, it kind of is, this feels really weird for me because the
00:38:12.400news division should be, you know, there should be a firewall between the news division and the
00:38:18.000corporate offices here, and we should be able to report on ourselves. And so they were, you know,
00:38:23.900you can see that they just, they're running around trying to find any kind of in to get me,
00:38:32.260You know what I mean? On this tweet. But I mean, it was factual. It was there. And then we moved to the panel. And then that was a whole process as well. So, you know, just this whole thing kind of. And I was also under a gag order at that point in time. They told me you cannot speak to anyone. So I was isolated.
00:38:56.120I remember at one point I said, oh, I mentioned to my brother.
00:39:17.660I think it was Philip Lawrence who asked the question of Miss Tate.
00:39:21.460And she kind of really just kind of skated around the issue and said there were no repercussions.
00:39:27.220However, there are AATIP, you know, records that show that there was a conversation that was had on the day before she testified in front of that committee.
00:44:51.600I asked you about, uh, if, if they hired you due to the color of your skin, you said yes. Do you think they also hired you because, uh, or sought you up because you were a pain in the butt to Doug Ford, a conservative premier?
00:45:06.260Oh yeah. Well, that's what got their attention. I think, well, maybe, I don't know. Clearly, clearly there's, I got on their radar at some point in time. I think it was probably during COVID because I was on, uh, you know, these calls that we had to be on.
00:45:21.600Perhaps they saw that. But I mean, there was clearly a reason why the editor in chief reached out to me. I don't know. I mean, I think that they also, they have to get these quotas, right? Let me read you. I read some of these messages from other folks that I got, but I wasn't able to get into kind of the great detail of it.
00:45:44.660But this was somebody, and I will just preface this by saying that these are allegations.
00:45:51.780This is somebody who was an anchor in Vancouver.
00:45:56.860I've worked in newsrooms across Canada and for me, and for more than one network.
00:46:03.680And I can say unequivocally that CBC in this specific market was the worst work environment I have ever experienced.
00:46:12.220The culture there was incredibly toxic.
00:46:15.020Speaking up or advocating for yourself often came with consequences.
00:46:18.920There was a strong focus on protecting the image of the corporation,
00:46:22.260and many people were afraid to speak openly about what they were experiencing.
00:46:26.000After about a year of working as an anchor there, I was suddenly removed from the anchor desk.
00:46:30.840I was told the decision was related to the color of my skin.
00:46:33.920That as a white person, I did not fit the diversity targets they were trying to meet.
00:46:39.980No concerns about my performance had ever been raised.
00:46:43.940My frustration was never directed at the individual who stepped into the role.
00:46:48.020My concern was with the system and the reasoning behind the decision.
00:46:51.500In my view, the decision reflected tokenism rather than meaningful inclusion.
00:46:55.500And then they go on to talk about this checkbox that had to be checked.
00:47:00.020Tell me about the form that producers would have to fill out.
00:47:05.460So there's, yeah, so there was the form and then there was also, you know, this that I wasn't aware of.
00:47:10.580But I'll tell you about the forum, and I'll also tell you how that kind of played out in real time when it came to news gathering.
00:47:16.940So I was pulled into an office when I was on the Consumer Affairs show.
00:47:25.280And it was a producer, an excellent producer, by the way, who had some real – and had been there for a very long time and had some concerns about this forum that the producers were forced to fill out about diversity.
00:47:38.780Now, so there's diversity tracking, but you want your metrics to be the right metrics, right?
00:47:46.120But they would have to go in after, and it's on a couple of shows from what I understood.
00:47:51.280And I saw this, this forum, and they'd have to go in and after the fact, check off if like, this person is a man, a woman, non-binary, the person that was being interviewed.
00:48:04.340So you could do a streeter. I could say, hey, can you talk to me about the cost of bread? Oh, yeah, it's really high right now. I think, you know, Canda Foods or whatever it is needs to change their prices. Great. Done. Moving on.
00:48:17.700Then you're in post-production, and the producer has to sit there and check male, female, gay, straight, bi, asexual, all of these different boxes.
00:49:06.920I was told that a box was expected to be checked in the system if the person interviewed was a minority.
00:49:11.580I believe it's important to include a broad range of voices and perspectives,
00:49:14.940but reducing interview subjects to a checkbox felt like an overly simplistic way, which it is,
00:49:20.460of approaching something that deserves far more care and thought.
00:49:24.300I share these experiences because I believe the culture within the CBC should matter to Canadians.
00:49:28.800Journalism plays an important role in holding others accountable,
00:49:31.760and that responsibility should extend to the institutions that produce the news.
00:49:36.040So, yes, is this fake DEI? Is this the facade of DEI?
00:49:41.760Sure. Is it to get your numbers artificially up? Looks like it. I mean, so there's not enough thought put into this. If you want to put window dressing up and paint the walls, you also have to look at the structure and all the cracks in it that are falling apart and not just do this in terms of the public positioning of the corporation, right?
00:50:05.480You have to listen to people that this is affecting. And that includes this white anchor who was allegedly taken off the air because they wanted to replace her with somebody who is not white. And that's tokenizing that person as well.
00:50:21.280By the way, I got an email from someone who worked at CBC in Atlantic Canada saying they were also told they could not ask for interviews with certain politicians without the permission of Ottawa, even if they wanted to ask them about local or regional issues.
00:51:17.560It's like, it's that, but that's, and I thought to myself, I didn't blame the producer because I'm like, well, that's what the, this is what they're expected to get. So of course this is how it's going to play out, but it's reducing, uh, you know, our interview subjects as well to check boxes.
00:51:35.880Last question to you. Why should anyone care about all of this?
00:51:40.880There are so many reasons. And I was very, you know, I'm doing this show with you. People will say that I am, again, you know, this is only for the conservatives and only the conservatives ask questions on the committee. But that is unfortunate because I raised some major concerns in terms of a number of issues.
00:51:59.860I think the conservatives ask questions because they see that there's an issue and the liberals were playing defense. So I said last question, but I'll interrupt myself. And that is, do you think there is a real bias against the conservatives?
00:52:14.840Yeah, but can I push back for a quick second on the conservative thing? I also think the conservatives are using this for their own, you know, their own playbook, 100%. So I'm being used as a pawn by everybody, right?
00:52:26.060For sure, for sure. But do you think there is an inherent anti-conservative bias within CBC?
00:52:34.640Let me just read you one more thing from another person who I did not read, because this is somebody that still works at the network, right?
00:52:48.300And this is what they said to me as I flip through my pages here.
00:52:52.300The CBC's political bias is an open secret. No honest person can deny it. It needs to start speaking to all Canadians and end the sanctimonious march toward irrelevance. It's a member of their own staff saying this, right?
00:53:08.060I've been complaining about it for years. Nothing's been done. I've documented stories, problems inside that are HR issues like you have mentioned. Nothing's been done. So why should people care about your story and the problems you're raising?
00:53:25.160Because I think if enough noise is made about this, like, listen, I'm aware that I'm being branded as like the anti-CBC guy, which if folks looked a little closer into this, they would realize I'm not, and that I actually do believe in the need for a public broadcaster, and that I worked there for a long time, and that I would not give up a six-figure job full-time with a pension if there weren't serious issues at the public broadcaster.
00:53:54.780So I think that they should care because there needs to be fairness in terms of employment standards, particularly everywhere, but particularly when public tax dollars are being paid.