In the wake of the anti-Israel pogrom in the streets of Toronto on October 7th, Jewish Canadians were shocked and traumatized. MP Anthony Howe's father Anthony talks about how anti-Semitism has affected his family and the Jewish community in Canada.
00:02:48.940Is he, you know, showing a weakness by staying within a party that he disagrees with on language issues or on the issue of Israel and how the Trudeau government is responding to it?
00:03:00.340That's the conversation today with Liberal MP, Anthony Howe's father.
00:03:05.000Anthony, I'm assuming the last few months have been a difficult time that you weren't expecting.
00:03:10.520Talking about Israel and the Jewish community in Canada is not exactly why you got into federal politics, but tell me what it's been like the last little while.
00:03:23.080I think that the same way that Israelis were traumatized by what happened on October the 7th, when a pogrom was launched by Hamas on Israel.
00:03:30.520I think the vast majority of Jewish Canadians were also traumatized because of our close ties to Israel.
00:03:45.480And there is that close connection between most Jews in the world and Israel.
00:03:49.560So I think we were traumatized by that.
00:03:51.700And I think we were then traumatized again by the crazy wave of anti-Semitism that swept across the Western world after October the 7th.
00:03:59.620I don't think most Jewish Canadians ever thought we would see something like this in our lifetime.
00:04:04.840And spending as much time as I've had to spend on fighting anti-Semitism in Canada has been quite a shock.
00:04:15.140When I said that it's not why you got into federal politics, I say that knowing that your Jewish identity is a big part of you.
00:04:24.120But you got into federal politics for other reasons.
00:04:28.040And this has, I'm going to guess, become almost all-consuming because I know for myself in the news business and, you know, a man who's not Jewish, this has taken up a lot of time looking at it, being shocked by it.
00:04:42.220From the very first protest that I went to on that Thanksgiving weekend and watching in horror what was being said on the streets of Toronto, never mind the neighborhoods and places I used to live in, in Montreal, the things that I was seeing were deeply disturbing.
00:05:00.240You're absolutely right. I mean, I think it's something that is difficult for most Canadians to relate to, to how much Jewish Canadians have been completely consumed with an issue that many Canadians care about, but aren't thinking about 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
00:05:17.880Whereas I would say the majority of Jewish people I know are thinking about this seven days a week, 24 hours a day, um, and talking about it to one another.
00:05:25.880And, and, and, and we've been, you know, very gratified by allies like yourself who are not Jewish, who have taken the time to support us.
00:05:34.380Um, you know, I, I, Warren Kinsella, I can, I can name a number of people, um, that, that, that, that have done that on, you know, and from the political side, people like Marco Mendicino, uh, people like Michelle Rempel, um, they're, they're, they're, you know, they're people like Stephen Lexie in Ontario.
00:05:48.940Like there are a lot of people who are not Jewish, who have been great at it.
00:05:52.500Kevin Vuong in Toronto was an independent.
00:05:54.700Um, you know, like, like, like, again, people from all sides have, have come forward that, that have been gratifying, but I think the Jewish community has been scared.
00:06:03.080Um, I think, I think it was shocked, scared, um, feeling frustrated that, that people aren't hearing how concerned we actually are about it.
00:06:12.080And so Brian, like we were both English speaking Quebecers.
00:06:16.220When I went into politics, my issue with minority rights was always my concern about language rights in Quebec, my concern about protecting the English speaking minority and all minorities in Quebec.
00:06:25.640And, and that was really what preoccupied me.
00:06:28.300I never really thought that the Jewish community in Canada would be the one that I would be spending all my time worried about, uh, over a period of time.
00:06:38.900There's definitely an overlap between, um, English speaking minority and the Jewish community.
00:06:43.280I've long tried to explain to people without the Jewish community in Montreal, there would be no English language rights, but that's, that's a subject for later on.
00:06:51.140But, but you, you represent a riding Mount Royal that was previously represented by Erwin Kotler, um, the great Erwin Kotler, I'll say, uh, in prior to that by the, the late prime minister, Pierre Trudeau, it's about 30% Jewish.
00:07:05.040That's got to be one of the highest Jewish population ridings, if not the highest in Canada.
00:07:13.560Um, and for people that, that don't know the community, I mean, in places like Cote St. Luke, you've got a lot of secular Jews.
00:07:22.660You've got a lot of different, uh, synagogues.
00:07:25.180You've got people who are tangentially associated with the faith, but also, well, you know, it's their culture, their heritage, but, you know, they're not overly religious.
00:07:33.080And then you've got the very religious communities.
00:07:51.700I mean, I, I think it was what you put two Jews on, on a desert Island and, and they come and rescue them and they find there's two different synagogues.
00:07:57.500There's the one that I go to and the one that I would never go to.
00:08:00.920And, uh, the Jewish community usually has a lot of divisions, but certainly on this, there would be only a very insignificant fringe of the Jewish community.
00:08:09.900That is not very, very concerned about antisemitism in Canada right now.
00:08:13.940And, uh, and, and, and the vast majority of the Jewish community is strongly supportive of Israel.
00:08:18.920And you're right that my writing is about 30% Jewish.
00:08:22.040We're the second most Jewish writing in Canada after Thornhill in Ontario that's represented by Melissa Lansman.
00:08:28.520Um, so, you know, it, it, it, it's a very big part of our community and the English speaking community is about 70, uh, you know, 6% of my writing.
00:08:37.860Um, and that of course, uh, includes, uh, most of the Jewish community, but it includes others as well.
00:08:44.460And, and, and we have many, many minorities in this writing.
00:08:47.720And again, like I've always felt very comfortable representing all minorities and speaking out in Quebec against Quebec laws that, that go against minority rights.
00:08:56.520Um, like Bill 96, Bill 96, Bill 21, uh, Bill 40, uh, we can go through a myriad of CAC laws that, that, that take away religious rights, take away language rights, take away, uh, educational rights of the minority in Quebec.
00:09:11.100And, and I've, and I've concentrated on that, uh, you know, over the years in parliament, as I have on, you know, on supporting Israel and Jewish issues, but it's a much lesser part of it.
00:09:21.000Now, in the last few months, it's been a much greater part of it.
00:09:24.400Um, you know, in addition to all the other normal things that an MP does, because none of my normal job goes away.
00:09:31.740And, and, and when it's flared up, it's flared up not only for me, but for my 30% of constituents who are Jewish.
00:09:37.920And for many of my other constituents, because of course, when you live in close proximity to large Jewish communities, many people who are not Jewish also feel very much part of that because their friends relate relatives, et cetera, are being consumed by it.
00:09:54.000I think it was, um, September, October, 2000.
00:09:58.820Um, and you'll remember this and maybe you can correct the date.
00:10:01.960But I remember there was a campaign of firebombings for English speaking businesses.
00:10:07.880Predominantly, it seemed second cups at the time.
00:10:21.180And there were firebombings and I remember how threatened I felt at that and the people marching with their flags, with the Patriot flags and, um, you know, seeing quotes in the Gazette, uh, that Anglos are cockroaches to be exterminated.
00:10:57.200So the synagogue that was firebombed was on the West Island, but one of the schools, one of the two schools that was shot at was in my riding.
00:11:05.040Um, and then the JCC, the Jewish community council in my riding was firebombed immediately after Rachel Bandayan, who represents the adjoining riding of Utremal and I had addressed, um, a group of religious, uh, community leaders in that building.
00:11:28.780And, and I have to say, Brian, I've never, like, I mean, I've often been attacked by, by, by Quebec separatists.
00:11:35.620I've often been attacked, uh, even by some of the French media, certainly when I voted against the language bill earlier this year and spoke out against the language bill, uh, and I was the only MP that did so.
00:11:52.620Um, I never felt that threatened, I never had the, the personal threats, the actual hatred, um, that I have had in the last few months, uh, from an antisemitism perspective, or as a Jewish MP speaking out on behalf of Israel.
00:12:10.000Um, like the threats have been much more serious, um, much more repeated, um, and, and, and, and, and I guess for the first time in my political life, and I've been in politics since my early twenties, um, I've been actually concerned about safety, which, which I never was before.
00:12:30.120And, and, uh, so I first met you in the early two thousands when you were with Alliance Quebec and, you know, the language wars at that time.
00:12:38.960Uh, I remember moving to Montreal and a friend saying, don't worry, the language wars have died down, they're gone.
00:12:44.260And then I moved there and, you know, everything I just described a moment ago happened and they were, they were prevalent and they were heated and you were, you were at the fore of that, but you've been, uh, you've been a liberal the entire time that I've known you and a very proud liberal.
00:13:09.960Uh, I think that's a bit of an understatement.
00:13:12.920Um, and we've seen the discussions around the, uh, the vote at the UN on the ceasefire, the discussions around South Africa and, and their attempt to take, um, Israel to the international court of justice.
00:13:27.120Does it feel like the same liberal party you, you joined 25 years ago, uh, have things changed?
00:13:35.780Are you feeling like your parties left you or is there still a place for you?
00:13:40.880I mean, you're constantly thinking of, uh, of your political views and whether or not they align with that of the party that you're in.
00:13:47.760I mean, political parties are an unfortunate reality in Canada.
00:13:52.040I mean, ideally everybody would be independent, would vote how their constituents and they believed on every bill, um, and everybody would work together and you wouldn't have parties that divided us.
00:13:59.960But I think in all systems, they've realized that political parties are reality.
00:14:03.520And, and, and I don't think anybody aligns with every political party on every issue.
00:14:07.860So it's been abundantly clear in the last year when, when it came to the language bill in Quebec and, and, and my very strong belief that references to Quebec's charter, the French language didn't belong in the official languages act.
00:14:20.440Um, or recently, um, when it came to the UN vote, uh, that I, that I have not agreed with my party and I have, I have acted accordingly.
00:14:29.860I have spoken out, um, and, and said that I don't agree.
00:14:33.020Um, but there's no other party that I necessarily agree with more on most issues, right?
00:14:47.020Because, um, I'd actually like to see more, this happen more often where an MP says, well, I agree with my party 90% of the time, but I don't agree with them on this.
00:15:05.560Have they talked to you about discipline or kicking you out or anything like that?
00:15:11.360Because that's, that's often what stops people from doing what you've done is someone from the party's whips office comes by and says, nice job you have here.
00:15:21.040It'd be a shame if something happened to it.
00:15:23.480So, I mean, first of all, I have the self-confidence that that wouldn't work.
00:15:27.260I think my riding would elect me however I ran in my riding.
00:15:31.200Um, and I don't, I don't think anybody would, would, would, would presume that I'm elected only because I'm a member of the liberal party, um, in Mount Royal anyways.
00:15:42.400And I think that's one of the strengths of the liberal party, right?
00:15:44.320I think the fact that we have diversity in the liberal party, the fact that we have different viewpoints and that we're actually allowed to express them, um, is a big strength.
00:15:54.100And I think that Canadian members of parliament often don't understand their own ability to influence events and to be strong.
00:16:01.720Um, we are far weaker than the UK MPs and we're far weaker than American members of Congress.
00:16:09.680We're all able to do and say what we want to say and, and, and in fact, vote how, how we want to vote, except on confidence bills and, and, and on, on certain very important bills.
00:16:20.540And, and I, and I think that, that it, we would be a better system if all parties would be flexible enough to allow members of parliament to not be seen as weak because they don't always support their party, but actually to see that as a strength.
00:16:34.040And, and, and, and, and I think that Canadian politics would be better served, that people would work across party lines far more if, if, if you had bipartisan, multi-partisan agreements between parties.
00:16:45.460Um, and I've always tried to strive for that.
00:16:47.900Um, and I, and I have a bit of an independent streak and that's, that's clear, but, um, I think that again, nobody should ever be expected to align perfectly with a hundred percent of the views in the party and nor should their constituents always be obliged to believe 100% in one party.
00:17:04.040or another party, you've got to have the flexibility as an MP to speak for your constituents.
00:17:07.740You have to be your constituents representative in Ottawa, not the reverse.
00:17:11.960Um, and I've been actually kind of pleased at how my party has allowed me that flexibility.
00:17:20.660Well, and I'm, you say that, you know, there's great diversity within the liberal party perhaps, but I will say that all parties in our Canadian system have been guilty of this tendency to crack the whip.
00:17:33.640And, and I'm, if they're, if they're not with you, then that's good.
00:17:39.700You know, I look at someone like Joe Manchin in the States, he's a Democrat and some Democrats will say you're not Democrat enough, but Joe Manchin would not align with any other party as much as he does with the Democrats.
00:17:52.480And yet on some key issues, he comes out and says, hell no.
00:17:57.660And, and he's very vocal and he still gets elected by the people of West Virginia.
00:18:02.360And he, you know, uh, still stays in caucuses with the, the democratic party.
00:18:08.380I'd like to see more of that in our system.
00:18:28.380And, but, but I think when you don't win the day and it's an issue that's incredibly important to you, it shouldn't be every issue, but there's issues of fundamental importance to different MPs.
00:18:37.240And for me, obviously the issue of language rights from my constituents, the issue of antisemitism, um, the issue of support for Israel, these are fundamental issues to me.
00:18:47.840Um, and where I don't agree with my party, um, I feel that I, I have an ability to, to speak out and say, I don't agree.
00:18:56.360Um, I think that's what my constituents expect of me.
00:18:58.740I, I think that's why my constituents respect me because I, I will do that.
00:19:04.800So let, let, let's talk about some of the divisions within the caucus.
00:19:08.980And then I want to talk about working across party lines, but.
00:19:11.740Uh, you know, uh, a lot of people have been outraged at a tweet that Melanie Jolie, one of your colleagues, cabinet minister in the government, someone who represents a Montreal riding, someone you know, well, I presume have known well for a long time.
00:19:26.500She posted on October 17th about the hospital bombing.
00:19:32.740Uh, that is seen as a blood libel by many and hurtful.
00:19:36.800Uh, you've got other, uh, MPs within the liberal caucus who've made very strong statements, uh, against Israel, uh, that I have deep questions about how, what's it like working within the caucus?
00:19:53.020Cause I know that you have to work with minister Joe Jolie on issues like the UN vote.
00:19:59.360How is it working with people who on certain issues are diametrically on the opposite side, opposed to you?
00:20:06.800So I think those are two different questions because Melanie is not diametrically on the opposite side.
00:20:10.940So, um, she is somebody I would call a friend as she and I have been friends for, for years.
00:20:16.160Um, and she and I had a long conversation yesterday, for example, on, on the issue of, uh, the ICJ, uh, case by South Africa.
00:20:24.660Um, my ability, because I'm in caucus, because I'm part of, of the liberal party, uh, to speak to ministers, to, to push from my views, um, and those are my constituents are very important.
00:20:36.120Um, and, and, and I don't, and I think Melanie, like, um, all of our ministers recognize that once, uh, Bill Blair had clarified that Israel didn't bomb the hospital, that Israel didn't bomb the hospital.
00:20:48.320And, and I think, I think that's, that, that's really clear.
00:20:51.480I, I don't think she, she is the type of person that would put out a, anything that is a blood libel.
00:20:56.120I think, I think that's, you know, that, that's something that's not in her character.
00:20:59.780And, and Melanie is, you know, has, has, has, has a very good knowledge of the Jewish community.
00:21:04.800Um, where it comes to other members of caucus who want their views on, for example, Israel are diametrically opposite to mine.
00:21:12.440Um, I hope that we find ways to work together on other issues, but it doesn't mean that I won't vigorously disagree with them on Israel.
00:21:19.100I just try not to let it become personal.
00:21:22.060Um, because once we let it become personal, then we can't work together on other things that we might agree on.
00:21:26.660For example, Bill 21 in Quebec, that is largely a slap in the face to the Muslim community and discriminates against Muslim women who wear hijabs that can't teach in public school.
00:21:35.880And, and on that issue, right, are my Muslim colleagues and I are very much aligned.
00:21:43.780Um, but, but, but of course on this issue, I do have colleagues who I am diametrically opposed to what they, they believe on the Middle East.
00:21:51.840And, you know, and, and, and, and it's something that I guess we all need to, we all have challenges where in our workplaces, we'll have certain colleagues who we don't agree with on things.
00:22:01.740And, and, um, you know, and, and, and, and in the same way that I work very closely with members of opposition parties, um, who I may not agree with on other fundamental issues I need, but I, but I still respect them.
00:22:13.860I still work with them as colleagues and try to find bipartisan consensus on things.
00:22:18.360The same is true with, with, with, with, with these colleagues who I may not agree with on Israel, but I may agree with on other things.
00:22:24.720A great example of that was a news conference on the Hill a little while ago that you were a part of.
00:22:30.640And, um, Erwin Kotler was asked a question and he didn't answer it.
00:22:36.440Shuv Majumder walked across the room, took the microphone and gave a very strong answer.
00:22:41.060That was a news conference where you were speaking, Judy Scrooge was speaking, uh, Shuv Majumder, as I mentioned, who's on the conservative side.
00:22:49.860I believe Michelle Rempel may have been there as well.
00:22:52.680Um, that, that was a, that was a coming together.
00:22:55.780Um, Michelle and I went to Israel together, right?
00:22:58.900Michelle, Melissa, Marty, um, and Marco and I went to Israel together, you know, and we, we, we, we were very much aligned in terms of the views that we expressed while we were there.
00:23:09.540Um, I, I, I, peel the curtain back on that then because, um, yeah, you know, we've compared to years ago, people used to, you know, be fine with people being friendly and other parties and the polarization in politics.
00:23:25.280People get shocked when they find out that, uh, MPs or MPPs or counselors will have a laugh together.
00:23:32.760They'll go out to dinner together and have a meal.
00:23:35.460Um, they'll, they'll say hello to each other.
00:23:38.100You know, no, no, you're supposed to put them in a headlock and beat them until they surrender.
00:23:42.780Peel back the curtain on, on what it's like cooperating with people in other parties, whether it's on this issue or other.
00:23:48.500I mean, specifically, I'd like to hear about this issue, but if you have other examples.
00:23:53.300I mean, I think ideally you talk to each other, you are true with each other, you respect each other's differences and you become friends.
00:24:01.280And, and the friendly relationship is what enables you to work across the aisle the best.
00:24:06.700And there are some MPs that will not have friends or, or, or, or be colleagues, uh, that are, that are close with people in other parties.
00:24:15.280And most of us are, um, and, and you try your best to develop those relationships and you genuinely make friendships.
00:24:22.920And I think that the people we went to Israel with are all genuinely friends.
00:24:27.840And we may have political disagreements and publicly, um, you know, we may not always, uh, agree on certain things, but I think the relationship while we were there was entirely harmonious and entirely friendly.
00:24:40.020And we sat together and we ate together and we, we, we, we, we, we did things together and we, you know, we, we, we, we, we took it very seriously.
00:24:47.060And, you know, and, and I think that like, I don't think she'd mind.
00:24:50.880I mean, when, when Michelle came to Montreal this summer, we hung out together.
00:24:54.580I mean, like there, there, there are genuine friendships there and, and, and, and, and I think too often people just look at question period in isolation, which is a very confrontational, um, type of approach versus the committees where it's often more collegial.
00:25:09.580And other parts of the parliamentary role where like Michelle Rempel and I, um, and Brian Mastay, um, uh, are, are co-chairs of, uh, with a couple of senators of, of an AI caucus that we started, right.
00:25:23.020And looking at how artificial intelligence is impacting, um, you know, Canada and how we should move forward as a country to, to, to deal with legislation on AI.
00:25:32.540Um, like that's huge is all stuff we're doing in addition to our other roles as MPs, but we got together across party lines to do that.
00:25:41.900And, you know, when you've got a problem with a file with your constituents, it helps to be able to go over and, uh, and talk to the minister or talk to a colleague.
00:25:51.300And, uh, every MP has that regardless of party.
00:25:55.540A hundred percent like that a minister needs to answer to every member of parliament, whether they're in opposition or in government.
00:26:00.540Um, and, and of course, when you're in the same party, perhaps you have more of an influence, more of a persuasion and you have caucus meetings where you're, you're, you're debating and discussing, but throughout parliament, every MP has power.
00:26:14.520And the problem often is like, I think, again, I feel that most MPs have been, have been led down a path where they don't know all the powers they have.
00:26:23.880And, and I think if MPs asserted themselves and all knew that they had these powers, um, and didn't just agree blindly on things, but rather thought things through and, and insisted on, you know, putting forward their own views.
00:26:37.820We would have a more harmonious house of commons in the sense you would have much more work across party lines.
00:26:44.100And, and I think that would be the ideal.
00:26:45.320I think Canadians, most things, as you know, Brian are not black and white.
00:26:49.920Most, most, most complex issues are gray.
00:26:51.860And the more you have debate and dialogue and you get to a consensus that everybody can agree with, the more you're truly reflecting the views of all Canadians, as opposed to taking a black or white approach.
00:27:01.460Before we take a break and leave this issue, um, the larger issue, I just want to ask on, on antisemitism, one of the things that early on until maybe the last couple of weeks has bothered me is that there have been times when it seemed like the prime minister was slow to react to certain events, be it schools or businesses being harassed.
00:27:28.300And then when he did make a statement, he would always mention antisemitism and Islamophobia.
00:27:36.200But when he denounced Islamophobia, he was not mentioning antisemitism every time.
00:27:42.040Is there a weak spot, a blind spot with either the prime minister or the PMO?
00:27:48.140Are people trying to be too sensitive?
00:27:59.620I think there's many legitimate criticisms of any politician, including me and including the prime minister.
00:28:05.320Um, I don't think the prime minister on antisemitism is, is somebody who really, um, should be thought of that way.
00:28:12.400I don't, I don't, don't take for a minute that I'm calling Justin Trudeau antisemitic.
00:28:16.420I have many disagreements that I'm public about with them, but I've never made that.
00:28:21.920No, no, no, but again, I, I wasn't taking it like that way, that way at all.
00:28:25.340But I think what I was trying to do is say that since Justin Trudeau has been prime minister, we have adopted the IRA definition of antisemitism.
00:28:33.240Antisemitism has become one of the four pillars of the anti-racism strategy.
00:28:35.980We have apologized for the Jewish refugee policy in the 1930s and the St. Louis.
00:28:40.920We've, we've appointed the first, um, a special envoy on antisemitism and Holocaust remembrance.
00:28:47.580That was Erwin Kotler and is now Deborah Lyons.
00:28:49.760There is, we, we had the first national summit on antisemitism in 2021.
00:28:53.520There has actually been an excellent record of the government while there's been some foibles, of course, like Latham Arouf, the vast majority of the government positions and, and, and work on antisemitism since 2015 has, has been exemplary.
00:29:08.800And I've been an important part of that.
00:29:11.360Um, so while there are legitimate things to criticize, um, you know, the prime minister for, I don't think he's weak in any way on antisemitism.
00:29:19.280I think in his heart, he is very, very strongly of the belief that Jewish Canadians are an incredibly important part of the fabric of this country and that there shouldn't be antisemitism here.
00:29:29.640Um, and I know that sometimes our community is, you know, critical of the fact that he's slow on the draw to them on some things.
00:29:37.960And, and of course, everybody also notices that, you know, sometimes it takes a long time to get a statement out, but in his heart, he is definitely somebody who is strongly there for the Jewish community.
00:29:49.000That, that I, that I fundamentally believe on the other issue that you raised.
00:29:52.480I think it's important to recognize that antisemitism and Islamophobia are two very bad things.
00:29:59.960Um, but I agree they shouldn't be lumped together in the same way that anti-black racism and anti-gay racism, um, shouldn't be lumped together.
00:30:11.280And people have a bad tendency of mingling antisemitism and Islamophobia in the same sentence every time when they are two completely different bad things that could happen.
00:30:23.760So, so they should be treated differently, but, but they should both be given importance.
00:30:28.580And I think too often people have the tendency to believe you have to say one whenever you say the other.
00:30:33.240And, and I don't think that's correct.
00:30:35.060They are two things that have different tropes and need to be treated seriously and importantly, but they're not the same.
00:30:42.880And when we come back, I want to ask you about some of the work that, uh, some of the fight that you've been doing with the, the cat government in Quebec back in moments.
00:30:50.400Bank more encores when you switch to a Scotiabank banking package.
00:30:57.940Learn more at scotiabank.com slash banking packages.