Full Comment - The Liberal MP who thinks his party is getting things wrong

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00:02:28.720 in the Montreal area, long held by the Liberals.

00:02:32.240 But this MP, Anthony Howe's father, has been speaking out against his own party on some, but not all, key issues.

00:02:38.420 Does that make him a dissident Liberal?

00:02:41.580 Is he a Liberal at all?

00:02:42.600 Is he someone who's going to cross the floor?

00:02:44.560 Is he brave for doing so, as some have said?

00:02:47.940 Or is he weak?

00:02:48.940 Is he, you know, showing a weakness by staying within a party that he disagrees with on language issues or on the issue of Israel and how the Trudeau government is responding to it?

00:03:00.340 That's the conversation today with Liberal MP, Anthony Howe's father.

00:03:05.000 Anthony, I'm assuming the last few months have been a difficult time that you weren't expecting.

00:03:10.520 Talking about Israel and the Jewish community in Canada is not exactly why you got into federal politics, but tell me what it's been like the last little while.

00:03:21.080 It's been very difficult.

00:03:23.080 I think that the same way that Israelis were traumatized by what happened on October the 7th, when a pogrom was launched by Hamas on Israel.

00:03:30.520 I think the vast majority of Jewish Canadians were also traumatized because of our close ties to Israel. 0.99

00:03:36.980 It's our biblical homeland.

00:03:39.260 Many of us have friends or even family members that live there.

00:03:43.260 Most of us have visited there.

00:03:45.480 And there is that close connection between most Jews in the world and Israel.

00:03:49.560 So I think we were traumatized by that.

00:03:51.700 And I think we were then traumatized again by the crazy wave of anti-Semitism that swept across the Western world after October the 7th.

00:03:59.620 I don't think most Jewish Canadians ever thought we would see something like this in our lifetime.

00:04:04.840 And spending as much time as I've had to spend on fighting anti-Semitism in Canada has been quite a shock.

00:04:15.140 When I said that it's not why you got into federal politics, I say that knowing that your Jewish identity is a big part of you.

00:04:24.120 But you got into federal politics for other reasons.

00:04:28.040 And this has, I'm going to guess, become almost all-consuming because I know for myself in the news business and, you know, a man who's not Jewish, this has taken up a lot of time looking at it, being shocked by it. 0.59

00:04:42.220 From the very first protest that I went to on that Thanksgiving weekend and watching in horror what was being said on the streets of Toronto, never mind the neighborhoods and places I used to live in, in Montreal, the things that I was seeing were deeply disturbing.

00:05:00.240 You're absolutely right. I mean, I think it's something that is difficult for most Canadians to relate to, to how much Jewish Canadians have been completely consumed with an issue that many Canadians care about, but aren't thinking about 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

00:05:17.880 Whereas I would say the majority of Jewish people I know are thinking about this seven days a week, 24 hours a day, um, and talking about it to one another.

00:05:25.880 And, and, and, and we've been, you know, very gratified by allies like yourself who are not Jewish, who have taken the time to support us.

00:05:34.380 Um, you know, I, I, Warren Kinsella, I can, I can name a number of people, um, that, that, that, that have done that on, you know, and from the political side, people like Marco Mendicino, uh, people like Michelle Rempel, um, they're, they're, they're, you know, they're people like Stephen Lexie in Ontario.

00:05:48.940 Like there are a lot of people who are not Jewish, who have been great at it.

00:05:52.500 Kevin Vuong in Toronto was an independent.

00:05:54.700 Um, you know, like, like, like, again, people from all sides have, have come forward that, that have been gratifying, but I think the Jewish community has been scared.

00:06:03.080 Um, I think, I think it was shocked, scared, um, feeling frustrated that, that people aren't hearing how concerned we actually are about it.

00:06:12.080 And so Brian, like we were both English speaking Quebecers.

00:06:15.280 You're right.

00:06:16.220 When I went into politics, my issue with minority rights was always my concern about language rights in Quebec, my concern about protecting the English speaking minority and all minorities in Quebec.

00:06:25.640 And, and that was really what preoccupied me.

00:06:28.300 I never really thought that the Jewish community in Canada would be the one that I would be spending all my time worried about, uh, over a period of time.

00:06:36.220 But that, that has happened.

00:06:38.900 There's definitely an overlap between, um, English speaking minority and the Jewish community.

00:06:43.280 I've long tried to explain to people without the Jewish community in Montreal, there would be no English language rights, but that's, that's a subject for later on.

00:06:51.140 But, but you, you represent a riding Mount Royal that was previously represented by Erwin Kotler, um, the great Erwin Kotler, I'll say, uh, in prior to that by the, the late prime minister, Pierre Trudeau, it's about 30% Jewish.

00:07:05.040 That's got to be one of the highest Jewish population ridings, if not the highest in Canada.

00:07:13.560 Um, and for people that, that don't know the community, I mean, in places like Cote St. Luke, you've got a lot of secular Jews.

00:07:22.660 You've got a lot of different, uh, synagogues. 0.93

00:07:25.180 You've got people who are tangentially associated with the faith, but also, well, you know, it's their culture, their heritage, but, you know, they're not overly religious.

00:07:33.080 And then you've got the very religious communities.

00:07:35.900 It's wide, it's diverse.

00:07:38.200 Um, but there seems to be unity on, on this front.

00:07:42.100 You know, what's the old, uh, saying, uh, if you, if you want three opinions, put two Jews in a room. 0.97

00:07:47.660 Uh, there seems to be unity on this.

00:07:50.280 Right.

00:07:50.520 You're, you're absolutely right.

00:07:51.700 I mean, I, I think it was what you put two Jews on, on a desert Island and, and they come and rescue them and they find there's two different synagogues.

00:07:57.500 There's the one that I go to and the one that I would never go to.

00:08:00.920 And, uh, the Jewish community usually has a lot of divisions, but certainly on this, there would be only a very insignificant fringe of the Jewish community.

00:08:09.900 That is not very, very concerned about antisemitism in Canada right now.

00:08:13.940 And, uh, and, and, and the vast majority of the Jewish community is strongly supportive of Israel.

00:08:17.960 So you're right.

00:08:18.920 And you're right that my writing is about 30% Jewish.

00:08:22.040 We're the second most Jewish writing in Canada after Thornhill in Ontario that's represented by Melissa Lansman.

00:08:28.520 Um, so, you know, it, it, it, it's a very big part of our community and the English speaking community is about 70, uh, you know, 6% of my writing.

00:08:37.860 Um, and that of course, uh, includes, uh, most of the Jewish community, but it includes others as well.

00:08:44.460 And, and, and we have many, many minorities in this writing.

00:08:47.720 And again, like I've always felt very comfortable representing all minorities and speaking out in Quebec against Quebec laws that, that go against minority rights.

00:08:56.520 Um, like Bill 96, Bill 96, Bill 21, uh, Bill 40, uh, we can go through a myriad of CAC laws that, that, that take away religious rights, take away language rights, take away, uh, educational rights of the minority in Quebec.

00:09:11.100 And, and I've, and I've concentrated on that, uh, you know, over the years in parliament, as I have on, you know, on supporting Israel and Jewish issues, but it's a much lesser part of it.

00:09:21.000 Now, in the last few months, it's been a much greater part of it.

00:09:24.400 Um, you know, in addition to all the other normal things that an MP does, because none of my normal job goes away.

00:09:29.940 It's just, this gets added to it.

00:09:31.740 And, and, and when it's flared up, it's flared up not only for me, but for my 30% of constituents who are Jewish.

00:09:37.920 And for many of my other constituents, because of course, when you live in close proximity to large Jewish communities, many people who are not Jewish also feel very much part of that because their friends relate relatives, et cetera, are being consumed by it. 0.74

00:09:54.000 I think it was, um, September, October, 2000.

00:09:58.820 Um, and you'll remember this and maybe you can correct the date.

00:10:01.960 But I remember there was a campaign of firebombings for English speaking businesses.

00:10:07.880 Predominantly, it seemed second cups at the time.

00:10:10.320 Um, the language cellets in Quebec decided second cup was too much of an English name, even though I believe on the outside in Montreal, they said Le Café second cup.

00:10:19.760 Well, not French enough. 0.97

00:10:21.180 And there were firebombings and I remember how threatened I felt at that and the people marching with their flags, with the Patriot flags and, um, you know, seeing quotes in the Gazette, uh, that Anglos are cockroaches to be exterminated. 0.97

00:10:39.160 That was frightening. 0.97

00:10:41.320 You experienced that.

00:10:44.220 I'm sure you felt the same way I did then.

00:10:47.220 Take me to the moment when you heard that after October 7th, there were synagogues and schools in your riding being firebombed.

00:10:55.100 Yeah.

00:10:55.360 So the synagogue.

00:10:56.180 Or, or shot at.

00:10:57.200 So the synagogue that was firebombed was on the West Island, but one of the schools, one of the two schools that was shot at was in my riding.

00:11:04.020 It was Hurtzalia High School.

00:11:05.040 Um, and then the JCC, the Jewish community council in my riding was firebombed immediately after Rachel Bandayan, who represents the adjoining riding of Utremal and I had addressed, um, a group of religious, uh, community leaders in that building.

00:11:21.400 And they posted it on social media.

00:11:23.000 The building was firebombed an hour and a half later.

00:11:26.080 And, and that is exceptionally scary.

00:11:28.780 And, and I have to say, Brian, I've never, like, I mean, I've often been attacked by, by, by Quebec separatists.

00:11:35.620 I've often been attacked, uh, even by some of the French media, certainly when I voted against the language bill earlier this year and spoke out against the language bill, uh, and I was the only MP that did so.

00:11:46.040 Um, I, I, I got, you know, lambasted in the Jornal de Montréal and, and certain more nationalist French, French media.

00:11:52.620 Um, I never felt that threatened, I never had the, the personal threats, the actual hatred, um, that I have had in the last few months, uh, from an antisemitism perspective, or as a Jewish MP speaking out on behalf of Israel.

00:12:10.000 Um, like the threats have been much more serious, um, much more repeated, um, and, and, and, and, and I guess for the first time in my political life, and I've been in politics since my early twenties, um, I've been actually concerned about safety, which, which I never was before.

00:12:30.120 And, and, uh, so I first met you in the early two thousands when you were with Alliance Quebec and, you know, the language wars at that time.

00:12:38.960 Uh, I remember moving to Montreal and a friend saying, don't worry, the language wars have died down, they're gone.

00:12:44.260 And then I moved there and, you know, everything I just described a moment ago happened and they were, they were prevalent and they were heated and you were, you were at the fore of that, but you've been, uh, you've been a liberal the entire time that I've known you and a very proud liberal.

00:12:59.860 Well, how does it feel right now?

00:13:04.760 Everyone keeps talking about divisions in the party.

00:13:08.060 It's a divided caucus.

00:13:09.960 Uh, I think that's a bit of an understatement.

00:13:12.920 Um, and we've seen the discussions around the, uh, the vote at the UN on the ceasefire, the discussions around South Africa and, and their attempt to take, um, Israel to the international court of justice.

00:13:27.120 Does it feel like the same liberal party you, you joined 25 years ago, uh, have things changed?

00:13:35.780 Are you feeling like your parties left you or is there still a place for you?

00:13:39.860 It's a great question.

00:13:40.880 I mean, you're constantly thinking of, uh, of your political views and whether or not they align with that of the party that you're in.

00:13:47.760 I mean, political parties are an unfortunate reality in Canada.

00:13:52.040 I mean, ideally everybody would be independent, would vote how their constituents and they believed on every bill, um, and everybody would work together and you wouldn't have parties that divided us.

00:13:59.960 But I think in all systems, they've realized that political parties are reality.

00:14:03.520 And, and, and I don't think anybody aligns with every political party on every issue.

00:14:07.860 So it's been abundantly clear in the last year when, when it came to the language bill in Quebec and, and, and my very strong belief that references to Quebec's charter, the French language didn't belong in the official languages act.

00:14:20.440 Um, or recently, um, when it came to the UN vote, uh, that I, that I have not agreed with my party and I have, I have acted accordingly.

00:14:29.860 I have spoken out, um, and, and said that I don't agree.

00:14:33.020 Um, but there's no other party that I necessarily agree with more on most issues, right?

00:14:38.840 I, I'm a liberal on most issues.

00:14:40.440 I align with my party on most issues, but I don't align with them on all issues.

00:14:43.840 What's it been like internally then?

00:14:47.020 Because, um, I'd actually like to see more, this happen more often where an MP says, well, I agree with my party 90% of the time, but I don't agree with them on this.

00:14:57.200 So I can't vote with them on that.

00:14:58.680 So, you know, I've had some people say to me, well, you know, look how weak house father is.

00:15:03.960 Uh, well, you're still in the party.

00:15:05.560 Have they talked to you about discipline or kicking you out or anything like that?

00:15:11.360 Because that's, that's often what stops people from doing what you've done is someone from the party's whips office comes by and says, nice job you have here.

00:15:21.040 It'd be a shame if something happened to it.

00:15:23.480 So, I mean, first of all, I have the self-confidence that that wouldn't work.

00:15:27.260 I think my riding would elect me however I ran in my riding.

00:15:31.200 Um, and I don't, I don't think anybody would, would, would, would presume that I'm elected only because I'm a member of the liberal party, um, in Mount Royal anyways.

00:15:39.980 Um, but, but no, nobody's done that.

00:15:42.400 And I think that's one of the strengths of the liberal party, right?

00:15:44.320 I think the fact that we have diversity in the liberal party, the fact that we have different viewpoints and that we're actually allowed to express them, um, is a big strength.

00:15:54.100 And I think that Canadian members of parliament often don't understand their own ability to influence events and to be strong.

00:16:01.720 Um, we are far weaker than the UK MPs and we're far weaker than American members of Congress.

00:16:07.960 Um, we all have the same powers.

00:16:09.680 We're all able to do and say what we want to say and, and, and in fact, vote how, how we want to vote, except on confidence bills and, and, and on, on certain very important bills.

00:16:20.540 And, and I, and I think that, that it, we would be a better system if all parties would be flexible enough to allow members of parliament to not be seen as weak because they don't always support their party, but actually to see that as a strength.

00:16:34.040 And, and, and, and, and I think that Canadian politics would be better served, that people would work across party lines far more if, if, if you had bipartisan, multi-partisan agreements between parties.

00:16:45.460 Um, and I've always tried to strive for that.

00:16:47.900 Um, and I, and I have a bit of an independent streak and that's, that's clear, but, um, I think that again, nobody should ever be expected to align perfectly with a hundred percent of the views in the party and nor should their constituents always be obliged to believe 100% in one party.

00:17:04.040 or another party, you've got to have the flexibility as an MP to speak for your constituents.

00:17:07.740 You have to be your constituents representative in Ottawa, not the reverse.

00:17:11.960 Um, and I've been actually kind of pleased at how my party has allowed me that flexibility.

00:17:20.660 Well, and I'm, you say that, you know, there's great diversity within the liberal party perhaps, but I will say that all parties in our Canadian system have been guilty of this tendency to crack the whip.

00:17:33.640 And, and I'm, if they're, if they're not with you, then that's good.

00:17:38.020 And we do need more of that.

00:17:39.700 You know, I look at someone like Joe Manchin in the States, he's a Democrat and some Democrats will say you're not Democrat enough, but Joe Manchin would not align with any other party as much as he does with the Democrats.

00:17:52.480 And yet on some key issues, he comes out and says, hell no.

00:17:57.660 And, and he's very vocal and he still gets elected by the people of West Virginia.

00:18:02.360 And he, you know, uh, still stays in caucuses with the, the democratic party.

00:18:08.380 I'd like to see more of that in our system.

00:18:11.200 I agree.

00:18:12.100 I mean, again, I personally, I agree.

00:18:13.840 I think that a strong leader allows for dissent there, there obviously has to be discussions within caucus.

00:18:21.620 And first you have to try your best to make your point in caucus and try to win the day.

00:18:25.260 And sometimes I win the day and sometimes I don't win the day.

00:18:28.160 Right.

00:18:28.380 And, but, but I think when you don't win the day and it's an issue that's incredibly important to you, it shouldn't be every issue, but there's issues of fundamental importance to different MPs.

00:18:37.240 And for me, obviously the issue of language rights from my constituents, the issue of antisemitism, um, the issue of support for Israel, these are fundamental issues to me.

00:18:47.840 Um, and where I don't agree with my party, um, I feel that I, I have an ability to, to speak out and say, I don't agree.

00:18:56.360 Um, I think that's what my constituents expect of me.

00:18:58.740 I, I think that's why my constituents respect me because I, I will do that.

00:19:04.800 So let, let, let's talk about some of the divisions within the caucus.

00:19:08.980 And then I want to talk about working across party lines, but.

00:19:11.740 Uh, you know, uh, a lot of people have been outraged at a tweet that Melanie Jolie, one of your colleagues, cabinet minister in the government, someone who represents a Montreal riding, someone you know, well, I presume have known well for a long time.

00:19:26.500 She posted on October 17th about the hospital bombing.

00:19:30.200 And to my knowledge, it's still up.

00:19:32.740 Uh, that is seen as a blood libel by many and hurtful.

00:19:36.800 Uh, you've got other, uh, MPs within the liberal caucus who've made very strong statements, uh, against Israel, uh, that I have deep questions about how, what's it like working within the caucus?

00:19:53.020 Cause I know that you have to work with minister Joe Jolie on issues like the UN vote.

00:19:57.300 You have to make your case to her.

00:19:59.360 How is it working with people who on certain issues are diametrically on the opposite side, opposed to you?

00:20:06.800 So I think those are two different questions because Melanie is not diametrically on the opposite side.

00:20:10.940 So, um, she is somebody I would call a friend as she and I have been friends for, for years.

00:20:16.160 Um, and she and I had a long conversation yesterday, for example, on, on the issue of, uh, the ICJ, uh, case by South Africa.

00:20:24.660 Um, my ability, because I'm in caucus, because I'm part of, of the liberal party, uh, to speak to ministers, to, to push from my views, um, and those are my constituents are very important.

00:20:36.120 Um, and, and, and I don't, and I think Melanie, like, um, all of our ministers recognize that once, uh, Bill Blair had clarified that Israel didn't bomb the hospital, that Israel didn't bomb the hospital.

00:20:48.320 And, and I think, I think that's, that, that's really clear.

00:20:51.480 I, I don't think she, she is the type of person that would put out a, anything that is a blood libel.

00:20:56.120 I think, I think that's, you know, that, that's something that's not in her character.

00:20:59.780 And, and Melanie is, you know, has, has, has, has a very good knowledge of the Jewish community.

00:21:04.800 Um, where it comes to other members of caucus who want their views on, for example, Israel are diametrically opposite to mine.

00:21:12.440 Um, I hope that we find ways to work together on other issues, but it doesn't mean that I won't vigorously disagree with them on Israel.

00:21:19.100 I just try not to let it become personal.

00:21:22.060 Um, because once we let it become personal, then we can't work together on other things that we might agree on.

00:21:26.660 For example, Bill 21 in Quebec, that is largely a slap in the face to the Muslim community and discriminates against Muslim women who wear hijabs that can't teach in public school.

00:21:35.880 And, and on that issue, right, are my Muslim colleagues and I are very much aligned.

00:21:40.720 Um, you know, it's religious freedom.

00:21:43.780 Um, but, but, but of course on this issue, I do have colleagues who I am diametrically opposed to what they, they believe on the Middle East.

00:21:51.840 And, you know, and, and, and, and it's something that I guess we all need to, we all have challenges where in our workplaces, we'll have certain colleagues who we don't agree with on things.

00:22:01.740 And, and, um, you know, and, and, and, and in the same way that I work very closely with members of opposition parties, um, who I may not agree with on other fundamental issues I need, but I, but I still respect them.

00:22:13.860 I still work with them as colleagues and try to find bipartisan consensus on things.

00:22:18.360 The same is true with, with, with, with, with these colleagues who I may not agree with on Israel, but I may agree with on other things.

00:22:24.720 A great example of that was a news conference on the Hill a little while ago that you were a part of.

00:22:30.640 And, um, Erwin Kotler was asked a question and he didn't answer it.

00:22:36.440 Shuv Majumder walked across the room, took the microphone and gave a very strong answer.

00:22:41.060 That was a news conference where you were speaking, Judy Scrooge was speaking, uh, Shuv Majumder, as I mentioned, who's on the conservative side.

00:22:49.860 I believe Michelle Rempel may have been there as well.

00:22:52.680 Um, that, that was a, that was a coming together.

00:22:55.780 Um, Michelle and I went to Israel together, right?

00:22:58.900 Michelle, Melissa, Marty, um, and Marco and I went to Israel together, you know, and we, we, we, we were very much aligned in terms of the views that we expressed while we were there.

00:23:09.540 Um, I, I, I, peel the curtain back on that then because, um, yeah, you know, we've compared to years ago, people used to, you know, be fine with people being friendly and other parties and the polarization in politics.

00:23:25.280 People get shocked when they find out that, uh, MPs or MPPs or counselors will have a laugh together.

00:23:32.760 They'll go out to dinner together and have a meal.

00:23:35.460 Um, they'll, they'll say hello to each other.

00:23:38.100 You know, no, no, you're supposed to put them in a headlock and beat them until they surrender.

00:23:42.780 Peel back the curtain on, on what it's like cooperating with people in other parties, whether it's on this issue or other.

00:23:48.500 I mean, specifically, I'd like to hear about this issue, but if you have other examples.

00:23:52.400 No, of course.

00:23:53.300 I mean, I think ideally you talk to each other, you are true with each other, you respect each other's differences and you become friends.

00:24:01.280 And, and the friendly relationship is what enables you to work across the aisle the best.

00:24:06.700 And there are some MPs that will not have friends or, or, or, or be colleagues, uh, that are, that are close with people in other parties.

00:24:15.280 And most of us are, um, and, and you try your best to develop those relationships and you genuinely make friendships.

00:24:22.920 And I think that the people we went to Israel with are all genuinely friends.

00:24:27.840 And we may have political disagreements and publicly, um, you know, we may not always, uh, agree on certain things, but I think the relationship while we were there was entirely harmonious and entirely friendly.

00:24:40.020 And we sat together and we ate together and we, we, we, we, we, we did things together and we, you know, we, we, we, we, we took it very seriously.

00:24:47.060 And, you know, and, and I think that like, I don't think she'd mind.

00:24:50.880 I mean, when, when Michelle came to Montreal this summer, we hung out together.

00:24:54.580 I mean, like there, there, there are genuine friendships there and, and, and, and, and I think too often people just look at question period in isolation, which is a very confrontational, um, type of approach versus the committees where it's often more collegial.

00:25:09.580 And other parts of the parliamentary role where like Michelle Rempel and I, um, and Brian Mastay, um, uh, are, are co-chairs of, uh, with a couple of senators of, of an AI caucus that we started, right.

00:25:23.020 And looking at how artificial intelligence is impacting, um, you know, Canada and how we should move forward as a country to, to, to deal with legislation on AI.

00:25:32.540 Um, like that's huge is all stuff we're doing in addition to our other roles as MPs, but we got together across party lines to do that.

00:25:41.900 And, you know, when you've got a problem with a file with your constituents, it helps to be able to go over and, uh, and talk to the minister or talk to a colleague.

00:25:51.300 And, uh, every MP has that regardless of party.

00:25:55.540 A hundred percent like that a minister needs to answer to every member of parliament, whether they're in opposition or in government.

00:26:00.540 Um, and, and of course, when you're in the same party, perhaps you have more of an influence, more of a persuasion and you have caucus meetings where you're, you're, you're debating and discussing, but throughout parliament, every MP has power.

00:26:14.520 And the problem often is like, I think, again, I feel that most MPs have been, have been led down a path where they don't know all the powers they have.

00:26:23.880 And, and I think if MPs asserted themselves and all knew that they had these powers, um, and didn't just agree blindly on things, but rather thought things through and, and insisted on, you know, putting forward their own views.

00:26:37.820 We would have a more harmonious house of commons in the sense you would have much more work across party lines.

00:26:44.100 And, and I think that would be the ideal.

00:26:45.320 I think Canadians, most things, as you know, Brian are not black and white.

00:26:48.580 They're mostly gray.

00:26:49.920 Most, most, most complex issues are gray.

00:26:51.860 And the more you have debate and dialogue and you get to a consensus that everybody can agree with, the more you're truly reflecting the views of all Canadians, as opposed to taking a black or white approach.

00:27:01.460 Before we take a break and leave this issue, um, the larger issue, I just want to ask on, on antisemitism, one of the things that early on until maybe the last couple of weeks has bothered me is that there have been times when it seemed like the prime minister was slow to react to certain events, be it schools or businesses being harassed.

00:27:28.300 And then when he did make a statement, he would always mention antisemitism and Islamophobia.

00:27:36.200 But when he denounced Islamophobia, he was not mentioning antisemitism every time.

00:27:42.040 Is there a weak spot, a blind spot with either the prime minister or the PMO?

00:27:48.140 Are people trying to be too sensitive?

00:27:51.060 What's behind that?

00:27:52.180 I'm not the only person that noticed that or, or has commented on it.

00:27:55.660 So what's behind it?

00:27:58.300 So, so a couple of things.

00:27:59.620 I think there's many legitimate criticisms of any politician, including me and including the prime minister.

00:28:05.320 Um, I don't think the prime minister on antisemitism is, is somebody who really, um, should be thought of that way.

00:28:12.400 I don't, I don't, don't take for a minute that I'm calling Justin Trudeau antisemitic.

00:28:16.420 I have many disagreements that I'm public about with them, but I've never made that.

00:28:21.920 No, no, no, but again, I, I wasn't taking it like that way, that way at all.

00:28:25.340 But I think what I was trying to do is say that since Justin Trudeau has been prime minister, we have adopted the IRA definition of antisemitism.

00:28:33.240 Antisemitism has become one of the four pillars of the anti-racism strategy.

00:28:35.980 We have apologized for the Jewish refugee policy in the 1930s and the St. Louis.

00:28:40.920 We've, we've appointed the first, um, a special envoy on antisemitism and Holocaust remembrance.

00:28:47.580 That was Erwin Kotler and is now Deborah Lyons.

00:28:49.760 There is, we, we had the first national summit on antisemitism in 2021.

00:28:53.520 There has actually been an excellent record of the government while there's been some foibles, of course, like Latham Arouf, the vast majority of the government positions and, and, and work on antisemitism since 2015 has, has been exemplary.

00:29:08.800 And I've been an important part of that.

00:29:10.100 And I've been proud of it.

00:29:11.360 Um, so while there are legitimate things to criticize, um, you know, the prime minister for, I don't think he's weak in any way on antisemitism.

00:29:19.280 I think in his heart, he is very, very strongly of the belief that Jewish Canadians are an incredibly important part of the fabric of this country and that there shouldn't be antisemitism here.

00:29:29.640 Um, and I know that sometimes our community is, you know, critical of the fact that he's slow on the draw to them on some things.

00:29:37.960 And, and of course, everybody also notices that, you know, sometimes it takes a long time to get a statement out, but in his heart, he is definitely somebody who is strongly there for the Jewish community.

00:29:49.000 That, that I, that I fundamentally believe on the other issue that you raised.

00:29:52.480 I think it's important to recognize that antisemitism and Islamophobia are two very bad things.

00:29:57.300 They're two very horrible racisms.

00:29:59.960 Um, but I agree they shouldn't be lumped together in the same way that anti-black racism and anti-gay racism, um, shouldn't be lumped together. 0.89

00:30:07.800 They're, they're not the same.

00:30:09.240 They're two different tropes.

00:30:10.280 They're two different issues.

00:30:11.280 And people have a bad tendency of mingling antisemitism and Islamophobia in the same sentence every time when they are two completely different bad things that could happen.

00:30:23.760 So, so they should be treated differently, but, but they should both be given importance.

00:30:28.580 And I think too often people have the tendency to believe you have to say one whenever you say the other.

00:30:33.240 And, and I don't think that's correct.

00:30:35.060 They are two things that have different tropes and need to be treated seriously and importantly, but they're not the same.

00:30:41.620 All right.

00:30:41.760 We'll take a quick break.

00:30:42.880 And when we come back, I want to ask you about some of the work that, uh, some of the fight that you've been doing with the, the cat government in Quebec back in moments.

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00:31:35.940 Quebec is an interesting place.

00:31:38.520 And if you haven't lived there and experienced that it can be difficult to understand.

00:31:43.180 Anthony, I remember the first time I was covering Francois Legault.

00:31:46.020 He was a PQ minister under Lucien Bouchard.

00:31:49.240 And I thought, this guy doesn't seem to belong in the PQ.

00:31:53.520 He seems like a business guy.

00:31:55.260 He doesn't seem to be anti-English.

00:31:57.820 He speaks English fluently, beautifully.

00:32:00.680 And then he left the PQ.

00:32:02.500 And I thought, okay, that makes sense.

00:32:04.100 And then he started the CAC, or took over as leader of the CAC.

00:32:08.120 And I thought, okay, well, maybe this is a softening.

00:32:11.700 He's become very hardline.

00:32:13.160 And you've had to fight against it on everything from universities to municipal services,

00:32:20.220 taking away the rights of people in historic English communities, whether it's in Montreal

00:32:26.980 or a place like Lenoxville, from being able to get your tax bill in English, something that

00:32:32.240 they've always been able to do.

00:32:35.080 What's driving this?

00:32:36.880 Because, you know, unless I had a complete misread of Legault all those years ago, and

00:32:42.060 I've covered him since, he's never seemed to be one of the hardliners to me.

00:32:46.380 But is he just trying to appeal to hardliners to get votes?

00:32:51.920 I mean, he's trailing in the polls to the PQ right now.

00:32:54.260 So maybe that's it.

00:32:56.540 What is behind it in your view?

00:32:58.800 Just let me correct one thing.

00:33:00.400 Nothing now, despite the horrible Bill 96, which was a terrible revision of Quebec's language

00:33:07.640 laws, there is nothing in there that changed the bilingual tax bill or the ability of Lenoxville

00:33:12.540 or other bilingual municipalities to deliver a bilingual tax bill.

00:33:16.380 Bilingual municipalities, the issue was they originally tried to propose that they could

00:33:19.740 take away the status of bilingual municipalities, and that got removed from the bill.

00:33:25.400 It's still the municipal council can, it's up to the municipal council.

00:33:28.840 They have to adopt a resolution saying they want to retain their status, and then they

00:33:31.580 retain it.

00:33:32.600 But coming back to the issue, I think Legault is a very, very smart man.

00:33:37.420 I think he's handled some things like COVID very well.

00:33:40.200 He presents a very reassuring presence.

00:33:44.140 But on the issues related to minorities, including minority language rights, I think that there's

00:33:49.880 been a real blind spot in the CAC government.

00:33:52.520 If I were cynical, I'd say there was a real attempt to create divisions in Quebec society

00:33:58.640 to push nationalists to vote for the CAC instead of for the PQ or other parties that are separatists

00:34:04.180 like Quebec Solidaire, and at the very least, there's a lack of understanding of any of

00:34:10.080 the needs of the minority communities or their very real desire for their rights to be respected.

00:34:15.000 And one after another, Bill 21, Bill 40, Bill 96, each of these would take away important

00:34:20.260 rights of minorities in Quebec.

00:34:22.600 In two of them, he used the notwithstanding clause, or the government, the parliament,

00:34:26.440 the National Assembly, used the notwithstanding clause preemptively.

00:34:29.400 I don't think the notwithstanding clause should be in the charter, but if it is there, I don't

00:34:33.740 believe it is allowed to be used preemptively in that way.

00:34:36.980 And I know that's being challenged before the courts.

00:34:39.700 But it's a very, very sad reality that on two very important laws, one dealing with religious

00:34:46.420 freedoms and one dealing with language rights, that Quebec has used the biggest stick it can

00:34:52.180 before a court can even rule on it.

00:34:54.640 And it's been very difficult for minorities in Quebec to understand because, right, if

00:35:00.900 you remember, Brian, 20 years ago, our big fear was Quebec separation.

00:35:05.120 Our big fear was that one day our province would try to separate from our country.

00:35:10.200 And he has created a situation where the CAC is not trying to do that, at least not overtly.

00:35:15.540 Um, they're, they're, they're, they're staying within Canada, but then they're taking away

00:35:20.220 our, our rights in the same way the PQ used to from a, from a perspective of language, from

00:35:26.260 a perspective of, uh, of, of culture.

00:35:29.460 So in the same way, Robert Barasa, the Quebec liberals did as well.

00:35:33.160 Uh, I mean, there's, there's no one with clean hands in that National Assembly when it comes

00:35:38.140 to, to English minority rights, especially, but others as well.

00:35:42.020 Uh, a hundred percent, but I think you're, what, what, what I mean is when it came to

00:35:46.380 separation, you had a very substantial group of the Francophone population in Quebec that

00:35:51.120 allied with the English speaking minority and the, and the non-Francophones to, to be

00:35:55.660 against separation.

00:35:57.060 Yeah.

00:35:57.540 Whereas on issues that just come up with English language rights, we do not have a large percentage

00:36:02.860 of Frank speaking Quebecers that have allied with us, at least not publicly.

00:36:06.440 And so we sort of realized that we don't have as large a group of people, um, in Quebec,

00:36:14.800 uh, that support us on important issues as we, we thought we did.

00:36:19.640 So you fought this, um, you know, when you were with Alliance Quebec years ago, uh, you

00:36:26.140 fought it in, um, in federal parliament.

00:36:29.300 And I mentioned that, you know, all the parties in the Quebec legislature are bad on English

00:36:35.920 language rights.

00:36:36.580 I would argue that all the parties, uh, in parliament are bad.

00:36:40.740 It used to be the liberals were federal liberals were stalwarts on this.

00:36:46.200 Um, under Stephen Harper, they tried a little bit to make, uh, um, uh, overtures to the, you

00:36:53.620 know, uh, Montreal English community.

00:36:55.760 They got shut down and they stopped.

00:36:58.020 And so now the conservatives don't care about it, but it was a shock to me for the federal

00:37:03.200 liberals to say, you know what, the, the charter of the French language deserves some federal,

00:37:08.260 um, how, how would you describe it?

00:37:11.620 What happened with the language bill earlier and, and how did the liberals end up reversing

00:37:16.260 decades of, um, their position?

00:37:20.840 So, so first off, I think that it is important to recognize that the liberal party still has

00:37:26.340 a vastly better position on English speaking Quebecers than the other parties.

00:37:29.600 The conservative party's position as articulated at the language committee was identical to

00:37:34.020 that of the Bloc Québécois.

00:37:35.180 They both came forward with identical amendments that were drafted by the Quebec government, um,

00:37:40.140 that would have essentially made the Quebec law, uh, apply federally.

00:37:44.440 Uh, and that was not the liberal position.

00:37:46.440 When I had problems with the draft of the bill, which had referenced Quebec's charter of the

00:37:50.900 French language amongst other laws across the country, and I was against it for a number of

00:37:55.360 reasons that I articulated at the language committee.

00:37:57.580 One of them being that Quebec laws use the notwithstanding clause preemptively.

00:38:00.960 Another is that it's horrendous to reference a Quebec law that takes away rights of the

00:38:05.800 English speaking minority in a federal law that's supposed to protect that minority.

00:38:09.680 Um, you know, I, I, I, there, I had drafted amendments that the prime minister himself

00:38:15.020 agreed to the prime minister said, we agree with those amendments to remove the references

00:38:19.760 to the chart of the French language and, and, and the liberals at the committee all voted

00:38:24.280 in favor of my amendments.

00:38:25.620 We, we voted to remove the references to the chart of the French language from the bill,

00:38:30.320 but the conservatives, the Bloc and the NDP voted against us.

00:38:33.760 And so the references remained, which then led me to be the only one voting against the

00:38:38.200 bill at the end.

00:38:39.000 Um, but, but the liberal position was to remove those references.

00:38:42.300 And, and, and, and, and I would say on the action plan, the liberal party and the action

00:38:47.360 plan that we've done for official language minorities has increased substantially.

00:38:51.000 The money is going to English speaking Quebec.

00:38:53.040 Um, so, and, and, and we're against the preemptive use the notwithstanding clause where the other

00:38:57.180 parties are in favor of it.

00:38:58.900 I just can't imagine Jean Chrétien allowing that vote to happen.

00:39:02.740 Having to say, I don't think Jean Chrétien would have had a single liberal MP vote in favor

00:39:08.080 of that.

00:39:08.500 Well, I mean, I think what you're saying is that Jean Chrétien and the original draft

00:39:12.300 of the bill wouldn't have included it.

00:39:13.880 Um, and, and that, you know, historically that may, may well be right.

00:39:17.600 I wasn't there when Jean Chrétien was there.

00:39:19.780 Um, and again, I could say that I had to vote against a bill that was very important.

00:39:25.220 And I was very upset about having to do that.

00:39:28.320 Um, because there were many things in that bill that were important for English speaking

00:39:32.440 Quebecers and French speakers outside Quebec, as well as French language across Canada.

00:39:36.660 But I, I, I did feel that the English speaking community was being badly served by that bill.

00:39:42.800 And, and, and, and, and I agree that I was unhappy with the position my party took in the

00:39:48.400 end on the bill, um, which is why I voted against it.

00:39:51.100 But, but again, at committee, we voted to remove the bad references and, and, and the other parties

00:39:57.060 made the bill much worse.

00:39:58.260 Um, and, and, and that wasn't the liberals, the, the lip, like, again, I would say, if

00:40:03.100 you asked me, I'd rank.

00:40:04.900 And I, I, I get what you're saying.

00:40:06.940 I get what you're saying, but you know, let me ask you this way.

00:40:09.880 Maybe, is there a pressure due to the, you know, success until recently of, uh, Francois

00:40:16.020 Legault and, and CAC, um, you know, his polling numbers have dipped.

00:40:19.260 Uh, but is there pressure to go softer than what the liberals traditionally would have gone

00:40:28.860 with in the past to try and appeal?

00:40:31.960 Because the liberals are doing, they're still, your party's still doing pretty well in Quebec.

00:40:35.680 Uh, do you have to appeal to that soft nationalist that would support, uh, some of these moves

00:40:41.400 that, that Legault is pushing or, you know?

00:40:45.120 I mean, I think the goal is to try to collaborate with the Quebec government where we can, but to

00:40:48.880 speak out against their policies where fundamentally we disagree with them.

00:40:53.500 Um, I, again, you have different views in the liberal caucus and we have a diverse caucus,

00:40:58.920 uh, different people that come from different ridings that have different compositions.

00:41:03.500 Um, and our Quebec caucus actually, as a group, I think works together very well.

00:41:08.060 It's, it's one of the, my, my, one of my favorite parts of the liberal party is the

00:41:13.640 Quebec caucus meetings, which I believe are always very open, very direct.

00:41:18.880 Uh, views are expressed.

00:41:21.100 They're always kept confidential.

00:41:22.900 And, and, and, and, and I feel very comfortable with my Quebec colleagues.

00:41:27.000 Um, I think there is, all of our colleagues have a respect for the English speaking minority

00:41:31.680 in Quebec.

00:41:31.980 That is for sure.

00:41:33.380 Um, and, and want to protect its rights.

00:41:35.500 We, we may, you know, we may disagree on some, you know, some parts of that, but I think

00:41:41.080 overall that is a place I'm very comfortable within the liberal party that English speaking

00:41:45.340 rights in Quebec and Frank speaking rights outside of Quebec are still a core composition

00:41:49.240 of our DNA.

00:41:50.860 My frustration over years, uh, has been that this becomes highly politicized though.

00:41:57.480 Um, and, and, and it becomes situational, um, for various politicians of, of all stripes.

00:42:05.940 And, and I think of, you know, what's happening with the attempt to financially squeeze Quebec

00:42:12.960 universities.

00:42:13.860 I'd like to see the federal government take a stronger stance on that.

00:42:17.820 I don't think that they have, I know you have, and some of your colleagues have, and I applaud

00:42:22.080 you for that, uh, but when, you know, premier Ford in Ontario said, we're going to pause a

00:42:28.580 French university that hadn't been started yet at the same time as he was pausing three

00:42:33.100 English universities that hadn't been started yet because he was like, well, we don't have

00:42:37.240 the money right now.

00:42:37.920 So this is on pause.

00:42:39.660 The federal liberals held rallies.

00:42:42.580 Melanie Jolie, you know, spoke at a rally denouncing the attack on the, the, the Francophone

00:42:47.340 community.

00:42:47.940 I haven't seen that same sort of thing.

00:42:50.920 And, and that's, it's not just the liberal party, but that's where you sit and where you're,

00:42:57.520 you're, you're a member.

00:42:58.820 It frustrates me.

00:43:00.500 I, but, but, but let's note, right.

00:43:02.300 You have a number of liberal MPs who have expressed their opposition to this CAC policy.

00:43:08.580 You haven't had anyone from any other party that has done so.

00:43:11.640 Right.

00:43:12.220 And, and, and, and you've had cabinet ministers that have expressed their opposition to this

00:43:16.440 CAC policy.

00:43:17.300 And I can assure you that I am working with colleagues like Anna Ganey, who's taken a

00:43:21.960 real leadership role on this one to try to find a way that our federal government can

00:43:26.080 do something.

00:43:27.820 You know, Randy Boissano is the language minister and we're talking to him and, and, and, and

00:43:31.800 I do think there has to be some way that we should help the English universities in Quebec

00:43:36.580 and English CEGEPs like Dawson that got monies removed for an expansion.

00:43:42.000 So, so that is definitely something that we are working on.

00:43:45.520 I, I am not going to give up on that.

00:43:48.340 Let's talk about what the policy is then to help people understand.

00:43:53.200 This is, you know, I think most people would be shocked that right now if you go to an English

00:43:59.740 speaking university in Quebec and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the current policy

00:44:04.060 is you pay a higher tuition rate and some of that money, you know, if you're an out of

00:44:10.540 province student, you pay a higher tuition rate at an English university and some of that

00:44:14.400 money goes to French universities that you're not attending.

00:44:17.120 And now they're going to just increase the tuition disparity and give more money to French

00:44:23.940 universities.

00:44:24.700 Do I have it right?

00:44:25.560 No, I think it's more, I would say it this way.

00:44:28.420 There's a, just in Quebec, if you're a local student, English or French, you pay a lesser

00:44:32.240 amount.

00:44:33.900 Then you have a rate that they've negotiated with France and Belgium that they pay the same

00:44:38.920 rate as local students.

00:44:41.620 So, and so if you, whether you're going from France or Belgium to an English or a French

00:44:45.000 university, you're paying a Quebec rate.

00:44:48.240 And then they have a rate for Canadians out of province and then they have a rate for everybody

00:44:52.600 else.

00:44:53.040 Um, the Canadian out of province rate right now is roughly equivalent, maybe slightly

00:44:58.580 higher, but roughly equivalent to what you'd pay to go to a university like Western or

00:45:01.820 York or, or U of T, uh, in Ontario.

00:45:05.200 Um, Quebec had proposed initially to more than double the rate you would pay if you were an

00:45:10.580 out of province student to go to an English university.

00:45:12.800 Um, the universities, of course, and us, and we rebelled and said, this is horrible, horrible,

00:45:18.140 bad for Montreal, bad for, bad for our community, bad for our institutions, but bad for everybody.

00:45:22.640 Um, and then the CAC and the universities gave a counter proposal to say that they would try to

00:45:28.020 deal with Quebec's claim that they were anglicizing Montreal by having these students, uh, become more

00:45:34.800 proficient in French.

00:45:36.180 Um, and then Quebec came out with what they say is their final, um, proposal where the out of

00:45:41.040 province rate would now be roughly three or $4,000 more than it is today.

00:45:45.640 So it would go from about 8,000 to about 12,000 if I have it right.

00:45:50.180 But after, um, graduation, 80% of the students coming from out of province would have to meet

00:45:56.520 a threshold in French, failing which the university would pay a penalty.

00:46:01.440 Um, and, and again, the universities have said that this is, you know, a very problematic,

00:46:06.560 disastrous.

00:46:07.120 They found monies from their own internal sums to give to out of province students to stop the

00:46:12.200 hemorrhage, but there needs to be a whole scale look at this because it, it doesn't make any

00:46:17.320 sense.

00:46:18.820 It's, um, most of the students that I know that went to Montreal for university, if they're

00:46:25.280 not perfectly bilingual, they, they, they have a proficiency, a great proficiency in French

00:46:30.540 by the time they leave and their presence in Montreal, you know, in my experience greatly

00:46:36.080 enriches the city. 0.96

00:46:37.120 So I think this is a foolish policy from start to finish. 0.89

00:46:40.960 Well, exactly. 0.90

00:46:41.740 It solves a non-existing problem, right?

00:46:43.660 The rate that the problem they're claiming is that these students are somehow anglicizing

00:46:47.840 downtown Montreal.

00:46:48.980 There's been no scientific evidence of that.

00:46:51.600 There's been no demography, the report that proves that or shows that.

00:46:56.080 And, and it's one of two things.

00:46:57.720 Either these students are there for three years and leave and have no effect except in

00:47:01.960 a transient way on downtown Montreal, or they stay and add to Quebec and Montreal society

00:47:08.420 and become bilingual and, and, and mean that there are more English speaking Canadians who

00:47:13.020 are bilingual to make it more of a bilingual country.

00:47:15.580 So, so I, I don't understand at all the rationale for this.

00:47:20.620 Um, and, and I think it's incredibly disappointing.

00:47:23.580 Anthony, you've been very gracious with your time.

00:47:25.920 I'll, I'll leave you with, with one last question.

00:47:28.580 Um, are you still comfortable in the party you sit in and are you going to be staying in

00:47:32.860 it, uh, hopefully staying in it or, or, or, you know, you're still a liberal.

00:47:38.420 I am still a liberal.

00:47:39.920 Uh, the right, again, what, what I, what I believe in is we have two parties in Canada,

00:47:45.520 the liberals and the conservatives that can form power, that, that will hold power alternatively.

00:47:51.140 And if I have certain beliefs, it's important for me that I advocate those beliefs in, in,

00:47:56.420 in, in my party.

00:47:57.600 Otherwise, if I abandon a party because I don't agree with certain things in it, first

00:48:01.700 of all, there's no party that I agree with everything in.

00:48:04.500 And if I leave a party because I don't agree with certain things in it, then my voice and

00:48:07.880 people who think like me are no longer present in the party, meaning that there's far less

00:48:11.780 chance that when that party is in power, that the views that we care about are going to be

00:48:16.160 the ones that the party will advance.

00:48:18.380 So, so like for me, I've always said that we need strong Jewish Canadian representation in

00:48:22.640 both major parties.

00:48:23.900 If you don't have any pro-Israel voices or voices that are fighting anti-Semitism in

00:48:30.520 one of the two parties, we're, we're lost.

00:48:33.060 So, so in any case, um, you know, I, I think for the moment, I, I, I, I accept the fact that

00:48:38.700 I may not always agree with my party, but I usually agree.

00:48:42.040 And I guess that's enough for me.

00:48:44.600 All right, Anthony, thanks for the time.

00:48:46.240 Thanks for the conversation.

00:48:47.440 It's been fascinating.

00:48:49.140 Thank you so much, Brian.

00:48:50.160 Have a great day.

00:48:50.760 The full comment is a post-media podcast.

00:48:54.040 My name's Brian Lilly, your host.

00:48:55.900 This episode was produced by Andre Pru with theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:48:59.240 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:49:01.460 You can subscribe to full comment on Apple podcasts, Google, Spotify, and Amazon music.

00:49:06.200 Listen through the app, your Alexa enabled devices, and you can help us out by giving

00:49:10.200 us a rating, leaving a review, and of course, telling your friends about us.

00:49:14.240 Thanks for listening until next time.

00:49:15.720 I'm Brian Lilly.

00:49:20.760 Bye.

00:49:21.300 Bye.

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Full Comment - January 15, 2024

The Liberal MP who thinks his party is getting things wrong

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