Full Comment - The perils of ‘white saviours,’ Black Lives Matter and critical race theory

00:00:00.860 Hey everyone, I'm pleased to be joined today by Sonia Orlu, a teaching assistant at Simon

00:00:04.860 Fraser University who's also involved with the Macdonald-Laurier Institute.

00:00:08.640 She's got a lot to say on all of the big and current issues surrounding race relations,

00:00:12.600 identity politics, and more, and we are certainly happy to give her a platform here today to

00:00:16.600 share her views.

00:00:17.400 But apparently, not every organization feels that way.

00:00:21.060 One Canadian news outlet actually recently deleted a story about Ms. Orlu's views because,

00:00:25.540 well, according to them, because of its potential negative impact.

00:00:30.060 Uh-oh, what on earth is going on?

00:00:31.780 Let's break it all down today with Sonia Orlu.

00:00:34.520 Hey Sonia, thanks for joining us. 0.87

00:00:35.960 Great to have you on.

00:00:37.760 Thanks for having me.

00:00:39.360 Yeah, I'm really looking forward to having this discussion that kind of bizarrely caused

00:00:43.620 this odd controversy out there because of your perspectives on Black Lives Matter, and

00:00:48.480 particularly a news story that went up by News 1130, that's a news outlet over on the

00:00:53.560 West Coast, about how Black Lives Matter resorts to, quote, emotional blackmail, argues a black 0.97

00:00:59.600 Simon Fraser University academic.

00:01:01.700 Headline, of course, referring to yourself.

00:01:03.900 Before we talk about this, this odd thing that happened and the ensuing, I guess, mini debacle,

00:01:10.200 tell us about your perspective on Black Lives Matter and emotional blackmail.

00:01:15.220 Right, so I authored a commentary piece that was published by the McDonnell Warrior Institute,

00:01:24.940 and this was titled, Why I Do Not Support the Black Lives Matter Movement.

00:01:29.520 So I specifically took aim at the Black Lives Matter Movement and tried to interrogate the 1.00

00:01:37.360 assertion that black people are systematically targeted for demise, especially by the police

00:01:46.580 in the United States, because we have much more data there.

00:01:50.440 But I also looked at the Canadian context a little bit.

00:01:54.040 So I argued, again, referring to the data, that this is not reality, that black people are 1.00

00:02:02.220 being targeted, that black lives matter sort of zooms in on a few cases and sort of uses

00:02:12.040 cases to make the narrative that America is a fundamentally, systematically racist nation

00:02:22.380 and that the police system there, it was specifically sort of, I guess, engineered or developed to target 0.95

00:02:32.100 black people.

00:02:32.840 And we are seeing that today with the killing of people like George Floyd or Mike Brown or 0.98

00:02:39.100 any of the other ones.

00:02:41.060 But that's not necessarily the case.

00:02:43.180 I mean, as of 2020, police shootings have actually gone down tremendously.

00:02:51.100 And the amount of non-resistant arrests, innocent, on-arm people killed by the police are very,

00:03:00.560 very, very minuscule.

00:03:03.340 And not to talk about the white people or people of all the races that are also killed by the

00:03:09.520 police.

00:03:10.160 So it's not necessarily, police brutality is an issue, quite all right, but it's not a race

00:03:15.680 issue.

00:03:17.180 And we have no evidence to support the assertion that black people are specifically being targeted,

00:03:21.640 not in the United States and not in Canada here as well.

00:03:24.860 So that was essentially the crux of my analogy.

00:03:27.940 Yeah, a lot of people don't respond well to that data, you know, being brought up.

00:03:31.620 I know that there were a number of news organizations and commentators who wanted to draw attention

00:03:36.040 to the fact that in terms of unarmed persons being killed by police in America, unarmed

00:03:40.380 black persons, I think on average, the number is about 10 a year, which I mean, unarmed people

00:03:44.980 should not be killed by police.

00:03:46.400 So I don't want to say it's only 10.

00:03:47.740 I think it would be ideal if the number was zero and we should work towards it getting to

00:03:52.260 zero.

00:03:52.540 But then at the same time, I guess, to your point, when people are holding up placards 0.53

00:03:56.500 saying, you know, please stop killing us, referring to unarmed black people being killed,

00:04:00.260 you know, all over the place in the United States, that I guess, as you say, well, the

00:04:03.260 data doesn't actually show that the numbers are massive.

00:04:07.660 You know, let's talk about that data.

00:04:09.620 But I guess, as your experience is found, and well, you know, many other people want to

00:04:13.860 bring it up, that there's a lot of, a lot of hostility to bringing up that data and

00:04:18.740 having that conversation.

00:04:19.920 Yeah, so it's, it's quite, I guess, illuminating the way people, some people want to portray

00:04:30.660 the plight of, of people of African descent living in the United States or in Canada.

00:04:36.300 It's, I don't understand what they, what they, what they hope to get out of painting African 1.00

00:04:47.440 Americans or black Canadians as these sort of endangered species of people who are being,

00:04:53.100 being systematically targeted or systemically being targeted by, by the respective societies

00:04:58.460 that they, that they live in.

00:04:59.620 So we see this, this general pushback from activist groups, from people who support them,

00:05:08.820 from political parties who buy into that narrative.

00:05:11.120 We see this pushback that, that really is grounded more in emotional rhetoric and emotional arguments

00:05:19.220 than it is in the data.

00:05:20.380 And that's not to say that we can't have compassionate data sort of analysis or, or use data for compassionate

00:05:27.940 measures.

00:05:29.800 But when you are creating a narrative that makes a regular and ordinary and average black 1.00

00:05:38.620 person scared for their lives, that is very harmful to quality of life.

00:05:45.580 Like, personally speaking, I remember in the height of, uh, after the, the Mike Brown, um, shooting

00:05:53.080 and, and the whole rise of the Black Lives Matter movement at that time, I was so scared to be

00:05:59.420 in the presence of a police officer because I thought that that was just something that could

00:06:04.220 have, like a police officer could pull out a gun and shoot me for no just cause.

00:06:08.760 And you have a lot of people who have that mindset today that society is out to get them,

00:06:14.820 that the cops are out to get them.

00:06:16.400 And, and that doesn't necessarily do well for, for mental health or for, for good quality

00:06:22.060 of life for people.

00:06:22.840 So I, I, I try as much as possible to, to, to use the data to counter a lot of these narratives

00:06:29.880 and to, to, to tell people who are like me that, no, you can go ahead and live your life

00:06:35.040 as best as you want to.

00:06:36.880 There's no one chasing you.

00:06:38.300 There's no one looking to, to, to wipe you off of the face of the earth.

00:06:42.340 There's no one who hates you that much.

00:06:44.920 Um, that, that they would, they would be, you know, better object to them.

00:06:49.100 And then I think that, that, that, that, that rhetoric, that, that narrative that, that 0.97

00:06:54.260 black people are worthless or that black people are, are disposable, I think it does more harm 0.99

00:07:00.300 than good. 1.00

00:07:00.640 And that's what actually filled this commentary paper on my end at least.

00:07:05.320 It was, it started up as a, as a sort of explanatory piece to my, to my friends and loved ones who

00:07:10.400 were feeling so, so sort of torn down by, by the narrative that was, that was being spread

00:07:15.160 around, uh, just right after, um, the George Floyd, uh, killing.

00:07:19.640 So that's the way I approach things.

00:07:22.400 Like I, I tend to, to go more to the data and I know we'll talk about critical race theory

00:07:27.100 later on and data isn't necessarily something that they like to, um, um, sort of, uh, work

00:07:34.760 with.

00:07:35.120 Uh, they, they, they look more to subjective reasoning than objective reasoning.

00:07:38.820 Uh, but I think that objective reasoning has brought so much good, um, so much, so much

00:07:45.080 prosperity, so much, so much of a better life for, for people of color everywhere.

00:07:50.000 And, and we need to stick with that.

00:07:52.700 Uh, and, and in, in, in that instance, issue any attempt whatsoever to characterize, uh,

00:08:00.480 the experience of people, people of color, uh, in this single story of oppression and

00:08:04.940 victimhood and marginalization.

00:08:06.820 Is that what you feel is really going on here?

00:08:08.980 That it's a patronizing conversation.

00:08:10.680 I mean, I know we hear that a lot from prominent black Republicans and conservatives in the United

00:08:14.320 States, uh, the victimhood phrase is one that's used a lot.

00:08:17.120 And that's the thing that they're, they're getting increasingly, uh, frustrated with at

00:08:20.500 the same time, to some degree in, in, in the, in the broader public narrative, I feel like

00:08:24.240 those things are only just ramping up.

00:08:26.360 How do you see it?

00:08:27.740 Oh, very much so.

00:08:29.240 And I don't consider myself to be a conservative in any, any sense of the word, but there is a

00:08:34.440 lot of the narrative, uh, narratives that are coming up from, from people on the left,

00:08:40.780 especially the progressive side of the spectrum is very much couched in sort of this paternalistic

00:08:46.680 infantilizing, uh, sort of understanding of, of, um, uh, how black people should be treated.

00:08:53.920 So it's, again, I, I, I, I question the, the, the objective here, the goal here, like, is

00:09:02.020 it to, to treat black people as equals, uh, or is it to, to baby them or to think that

00:09:09.700 they can't act as, uh, autonomous, uh, beings in their own right.

00:09:15.380 So I, I don't think that that's the, I think it's very, very disingenuous on anyone's part

00:09:20.500 to characterize, uh, any attempt to critique the victimhood narrative that's coming out

00:09:26.120 from certain aspects of, of society as, as being a conservative sort of talking point.

00:09:31.520 I, in my, in my, um, sort of foray online and all the people I've, I've been fortunate

00:09:37.380 to meet since my paper sort of came out, um, they, these are people from very diverse backgrounds

00:09:45.900 and they all hold the, the, the, the, the opinion that, that black people aren't the second

00:09:54.260 class citizens that need to, I guess, perpetually cuddle, um, and, and sort of wrap in this 0.94

00:10:02.460 bubble where the white liberal, quote unquote, uh, now takes on the role of the savior, right?

00:10:10.300 That takes on the role of, of the rescuer, the one who gives us a platform, the one who

00:10:15.280 amplifies our voices because we, for some reason, we can't do that ourselves.

00:10:18.960 So, so yeah, I think, I think that there is, there is a need for people of all backgrounds,

00:10:24.860 of all political, of all kinds of political spectrum to counter that, that narrative.

00:10:28.580 Yeah.

00:10:29.000 That's an interesting thing to bring up the sort of white savior scenario.

00:10:32.320 What do you think is the biggest challenge here?

00:10:34.060 I know you mentioned Black Lives Matter, uh, participating in emotional blackmail, but it 1.00

00:10:38.620 seems like, uh, white saviors or what have you, they actually are very eager to be emotionally

00:10:42.740 blackmailed or what have you.

00:10:44.200 I, I mean, when, when I see images, particularly, uh, in the wake of the George Floyd killings,

00:10:49.540 uh, there's young black men going to the streets in America, some of them voicing some very 0.79

00:10:53.580 earnest passion and frustration.

00:10:55.700 And I go, okay, like, you know, I'm a advocate of democracy and making your voice heard.

00:11:00.020 So go out there and say what you got to say about, about police accountability.

00:11:03.600 I, more when I look at the white savior scenario and I wonder what's, what's going on here?

00:11:08.380 What's the, what's the psychology behind all of this is sort of white liberal, uh, trying

00:11:12.560 to get in on their hashtag, uh, credentials and so forth.

00:11:15.560 I mean, I mean, what do you think about the interplay between all of that?

00:11:19.880 Um, well, I, I would actually divide the white savior into two camps. 0.89

00:11:25.820 You have the people who are genuinely, um, hurt or frustrated by the way, uh, people of color 0.98

00:11:33.020 have been historically treated in North America, uh, who then feel the responsibility to remedy

00:11:39.920 those harms, right?

00:11:42.420 Um, so it's kind of, uh, what, uh, the, the, the writer, Chimamanda Adichie calls, uh, self,

00:11:49.480 sorry, well-meaning pity, right?

00:11:51.980 It, it, it comes from a good place, but it, it overcompensates.

00:11:55.620 Um, and it, it's, it's like, it's, it's, it's, this very, um, I guess, need to, to ensure

00:12:07.900 that whatever harms that, that, according to the past, don't risk to keep themselves in

00:12:13.000 the future, uh, without really taking into consideration how much the future, oh, sorry,

00:12:16.900 how much the presence in the future are not necessarily the same.

00:12:20.020 It, it, it overlooks the progress that I've been, that we've achieved so far, um, and,

00:12:26.120 and casts the plight of, of people of color, quote unquote, uh, in the light of what has

00:12:32.260 happened in the past, right?

00:12:33.900 Rather than seeing people of color as they are today, they see people of color, uh, through 1.00

00:12:39.340 the length of the past.

00:12:40.840 So that in this, that in a sense is, is, it's, I wouldn't say that's malicious.

00:12:48.000 It's just very misinformed, um, and, uh, perhaps ignorant in, in, in some areas.

00:12:55.720 Uh, but then you have the other side, the ones who are political opportunists, right?

00:13:00.560 The white people that are political opportunists who see this as an avenue to amass, um, political

00:13:07.800 power.

00:13:08.800 So this is, these are the ones that sort of play on the, the plight of, of, uh, uh, issues

00:13:16.260 surrounding people of color, bring up this very toxic narrative, this, this, this illusion 1.00

00:13:22.440 of hatred, um, and use, use that to sort of fill their own ambitions.

00:13:30.940 So for instance, if you, if you actually look at the data, commentary or, or, uh, sort of

00:13:38.400 narratives around, uh, black lives matter, white supremacy, uh, hate and all of that, usually

00:13:45.520 ramp up during election periods or right before election periods, especially in the United States.

00:13:51.940 Right.

00:13:52.940 Um, it, it, it's become a tactic to sort of drive people to the polls to vote for, uh,

00:13:58.940 specific candidates or specific political parties.

00:14:01.940 So.

00:14:02.940 Well, there's that famous Joe Biden, uh, Joe Biden line where he says, uh, okay, you've

00:14:07.440 got to vote Democrat now because the Republicans, he said they want to put y'all back in chains.

00:14:11.800 Those were the, that was the exact phraseology.

00:14:12.940 And to your point, that was said right before an election time.

00:14:15.940 Yeah.

00:14:16.940 Yeah.

00:14:17.940 So, so you, when you have people like that who feel that they need to come across as saving,

00:14:24.940 uh, black people or other people of color, and you can only achieve sort of the utopia 1.00

00:14:30.940 that you dream of if you vote for them. 0.99

00:14:32.940 Right.

00:14:33.940 Um, not, not taking into consideration that every single time that people of color have voted

00:14:38.940 for them, nothing has really come out of it.

00:14:40.940 So it's like you say the same thing every four years and people continue to buy into

00:14:45.940 the rhetoric and, and you attach, uh, the, the illusion of, of equality to your own cause,

00:14:53.940 even though it really doesn't, you don't really help the cause at all.

00:14:57.940 Um, but that helps you in, in political realm.

00:15:01.940 Um, and so it's, it's kind of like the idea that all black people vote Democrat, right?

00:15:08.940 Or, uh, all black people in Canada here vote the liberal party.

00:15:13.940 So it's, it's, it's almost like a no brainer right now that that's the assumption of many

00:15:19.940 people so much so that other parties really don't put a lot of effort in, in trying to get

00:15:26.940 the black votes because it's assumed that why if you're black, you automatically vote

00:15:32.940 for whatever parties on the left when in, in actuality, um, black people actually more 0.94

00:15:39.940 conservative than their white liberal counterparts.

00:15:42.940 Right.

00:15:43.940 And you have a lot of, uh, a lot of, um, black people who, who feel that because the, the,

00:15:55.940 the illusion of equality is tied to liberalism.

00:15:59.940 And I use that in a very loose sense and, and, uh, parties on the left sort of, uh, sort

00:16:05.940 of, uh, I guess have a monopoly on the idea of liberalism.

00:16:09.940 They have to vote for that.

00:16:11.940 Otherwise they'd be voting against their interests.

00:16:13.940 Um, when, if you actually look at their preferences, the behavior, their lifestyle, they will actually

00:16:20.940 fall better under some conservative high-false conservative leading parties.

00:16:26.940 Um, and so in many instances, black people vote against their interests by voting liberal

00:16:32.940 or by voting Democrat. 0.71

00:16:34.940 Uh, but, but because we have that white failure narrative tied to parties on the left, black people

00:16:38.940 and to just vote, um, because that's the assumed thing to do.

00:16:43.940 Sonia, you say something very interesting though, when you talked about other parties, not even

00:16:47.940 pursuing that vote and, and perhaps, you know, if you never say to someone, please vote for

00:16:53.940 me, that's gonna, you know, get in the way of that person considering you as a voting option.

00:16:57.940 I want to get your thoughts on what's happening in America, uh, more recently on the political

00:17:01.940 spectrum.

00:17:02.940 It was seen that Donald Trump during reelection bid really wanted to pursue the black vote

00:17:06.940 more aggressively than he had before.

00:17:07.940 I remember when Mitt Romney lost, uh, pretty badly and really bad, uh, in terms of the

00:17:12.940 black vote, uh, the GOP said, okay, we got to do this investigation.

00:17:15.940 They did this 2012 look into why are we so out of touch with LGBT and African Americans

00:17:20.940 and, and all these different groups and so forth.

00:17:22.940 And they did this whole post-mortem.

00:17:23.940 I'm not really sure what came of it.

00:17:24.940 It was just, you know, like most reports, it just kind of sits on the shelf.

00:17:27.940 And he did do very poorly, Mitt Romney.

00:17:29.940 Donald Trump did a lot better with the black vote in 2016. 0.63

00:17:32.940 And he did even a lot better more in 2020, really growing it.

00:17:36.940 And, and some people say it's just because he decided, I want to pursue this vote.

00:17:40.940 I want these people to vote for me.

00:17:42.940 And people like Mitt Romney just never really bothered to do that.

00:17:46.940 Mm hmm.

00:17:47.940 Yeah.

00:17:48.940 Um, so the, the GOP has been traditionally known as the party of old white men.

00:17:54.940 Right.

00:17:55.940 And, um, that, that has kind of stuck as an identity for them for a while.

00:18:00.940 And I think they're trying to break out of that, that identity right now with reaching

00:18:04.940 out to more, uh, black individuals and communities.

00:18:07.940 So, um, with, with Donald Trump, I think he was a very unique candidate.

00:18:12.940 I don't think that if it was a Jeb Bush or, um, a Paul Ryan or any of the other ones that

00:18:20.940 you would have had that enthusiasm with, with, uh, black voters.

00:18:25.940 Um, I think there, there, there, there was something unique about him as a person, as a

00:18:30.940 businessman, as a politician that sets him apart from, from, uh, other, other, uh, old 0.63

00:18:39.940 white men, for lack of a better word.

00:18:42.940 So it, I, I think that it points to a very positive, um, uh, development for, for the

00:18:52.940 Republican party in the, in the U S I I see that there are a lot of, uh, African Americans

00:18:58.940 that are running for office under the Republican umbrella.

00:19:01.940 Right.

00:19:02.940 Uh, there, there's a lot of social media sort of outreach, uh, by existing, um, conservative

00:19:08.940 or Republican, um, uh, members towards black individuals and black communities.

00:19:14.940 Uh, and the, the very interesting thing, at least from what I've seen is that they tend

00:19:20.940 to, uh, there, uh, there is this analogy that was made by, by one of the more prominent,

00:19:27.940 uh, black, uh, Republicans just like there is a, I, I don't know if you've watched, uh,

00:19:33.940 Fresh, Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.

00:19:35.940 Oh yes.

00:19:36.940 I love it.

00:19:37.940 Yeah.

00:19:38.940 It's like, there is the, there's a Carlton Republican and then there's the, uh, the

00:19:44.940 Will Smith, uh, type of Republican and, uh, um, they need to, those emphasis on the need

00:20:00.940 to reach out to people who, who have different, uh, sort of black identities, I guess, that

00:20:07.940 there is no, just one size fits all black person. 0.98

00:20:12.940 Right.

00:20:13.940 Um, and, and, and this, I guess this person was trying to make, make the case that not

00:20:17.940 all black conservatives are Candace Owens.

00:20:20.940 Um, there are more black conservatives who are more in the hood and, and, um, and there

00:20:26.940 needs to be a lot more outreach there.

00:20:29.940 Um, so I, I see that happening a lot online and with Donald Trump, I think because he

00:20:35.940 was not that traditional politician, uh, people were more likely, even though he, he, he tends

00:20:40.940 to fib a lot and exaggerate and use hyperbole a lot, uh, there was a sense of authenticity

00:20:46.940 to his candidacy that drew in a lot of people that you wouldn't traditionally think would

00:20:52.940 vote Republican.

00:20:53.940 But what's interesting, Sonia, what do you think about the fact that we heard more and more

00:20:58.940 throughout the four years of Donald Trump's term that he was a very racist individual?

00:21:03.940 Some people wanted to say he was a white supremacist and so forth.

00:21:06.940 And, you know, Mitt Romney didn't really have many of those accusations against him.

00:21:09.940 He fared very poorly with the black vote.

00:21:11.940 We were told in media stories and on social media, uh, that Donald Trump was a bad guy when

00:21:16.940 it came to his racial views.

00:21:17.940 And yet he did multiple times better on that vote.

00:21:20.940 What do you think was going on in that phenomenon?

00:21:23.940 I think it's very multifaceted.

00:21:26.940 Um, so we know that there was a concern media campaign to paint him that way.

00:21:32.940 Uh, and unfortunately that, that also coincided with when people began to heavily distrust the media.

00:21:41.940 Um, with the rise of alternative, uh, alternative media, uh, people, a lot of people, especially

00:21:51.940 from, from what you would call marginalized communities began to flock to these alternative,

00:21:55.940 uh, media sites and, and pundits and commentators and all of that.

00:22:00.940 Um, and they're, they're, they're comparing both with kind of like night and day.

00:22:06.940 So for a lot of people, if you hear something about Donald Trump coming from like someone on

00:22:13.940 CNN or MSNBC, uh, it's more likely, or they're more likely to be distrustful of that narrative

00:22:19.940 than if they hear it coming from like a student powder or, um, someone else on, on the, the,

00:22:25.940 the alternative media sites.

00:22:27.940 Uh, so with that, with that shift, and we know that, uh, people who tend to pay attention to

00:22:34.940 mainstream, mainstream media are usually your upper class, white liberal.

00:22:39.940 Um, and with the way that they painted Donald Trump, who, that wasn't the first time he,

00:22:48.940 he was a, he has always been a public figure.

00:22:51.940 And a lot of people had in the past resonated with him because of the way he came across.

00:22:58.940 It's this very in your face.

00:23:00.940 Um, uh, not, not, not two faced like a regular politician.

00:23:07.940 Uh, and then a sense of authenticity to him.

00:23:09.940 And so when you have this concerted effort to paint someone in a very, very negative manner,

00:23:18.940 people tend to see, see through it a lot more than if it was something gradual and worse

00:23:24.940 or more subtle.

00:23:25.940 And I think that that's what happened with Donald Trump.

00:23:27.940 I think that the media went full on assault and it was very transparent that they were clearly biased.

00:23:33.940 And so you had a lot of people tune that out, especially people who are not upper class, white or liberal.

00:23:38.940 Um, you had a lot of people who tune that out, um, and, uh, embraced more sort of alternative media

00:23:45.940 and their characterization of him.

00:23:47.940 And so during this period, again, we saw the rise of a lot of alternative voices.

00:23:52.940 Uh, and the more people began to follow these alternative voices, uh, especially alternative voices in the black community,

00:23:59.940 uh, the more we began to see a lot more support and a lot more rise in the number of people who, who, uh,

00:24:08.940 wouldn't have otherwise voted for Trump, uh, in, in, in years prior.

00:24:14.940 So it's kind of multifaceted in a way.

00:24:17.940 And it, I don't know if you, if you had a chance to look at that time, time magazine piece on, uh, I forget the title,

00:24:24.940 but where they made it claim that they had to qualify the election.

00:24:27.940 Um, this was, this was a couple of things.

00:24:31.940 I think it came out this year, um, after, after the inauguration or something.

00:24:35.940 Uh, they sort of detailed how the, like the whole background process on the, on how, uh, the establishment

00:24:42.940 pretty much came together to, to make sure that Trump gets, um, gets voted out.

00:24:48.940 Um, and to some people that was, that was, uh, I guess, news to them.

00:24:55.940 But if you had been paying attention to the situation from, from 2015, you would have seen that it was very transparent

00:25:03.940 because they were, it became, I guess, a, a, an obsession on the part of, of, of some,

00:25:10.940 some people in the, in the media and in the political establishment.

00:25:13.940 And, and a lot of people at least saw through that because personally speaking for me,

00:25:18.940 um, I don't think Donald Trump is the worst, worst person in the world.

00:25:21.940 Um, I never bought into that, that narrative that he's like a white supremacist or whatever.

00:25:28.940 I don't, I don't think that he is an effective leader in, in, in the way that, uh,

00:25:32.940 in the way that, uh, many people would want him to be.

00:25:35.940 Um, but I don't think that he's all bad.

00:25:37.940 And so, and this is not a conclusion.

00:25:39.940 I came to, you know, like I saw that right from 2015 when he announced his presidency.

00:25:45.940 Um, and, um, I, I began to track the, the sort of media narrative that was built around him,

00:25:52.940 uh, at that point in time.

00:25:53.940 And it did, like it, it, it was very, very heartbreaking to see the media that I thought I trusted,

00:26:02.940 uh, sort of, in this very blatant misinterpretation of, and just because he was not part of them

00:26:08.940 and he threatened their interest in, in many ways.

00:26:12.940 Sonia, I want to get your perspectives on the Canadian political scene.

00:26:14.940 Now we've talked about the U S here in Canada when it comes to, uh, you know, outreach or, or just saying to people,

00:26:21.940 yes, we want your vote and so forth.

00:26:22.940 I think maybe what she said about, uh, previously Republicans, not really kind of reaching out much,

00:26:28.940 perhaps happening here in Canada as well.

00:26:30.940 I mean, the conservative party in Canada does, uh, lay claim to the first black member of parliament,

00:26:34.940 the first black federal cabinet minister that was Lincoln Alexander a number of decades ago.

00:26:38.940 Uh, otherwise not really seen as being a party that goes out and, and really try and engages, uh, with black Canadians all that much.

00:26:45.940 What do you think about what's going on on that whole, that whole front there?

00:26:49.940 I think that's their loss.

00:26:52.940 Um, as someone who, I guess, is very sympathetic to, to the current, uh, conservative platform,

00:27:03.940 especially under Erin O'Toole, I think that there's a lot of opportunity there to, to drawing a lot of, uh, black individuals and communities.

00:27:14.940 Um, so the, I think similar to the United States, uh, the Canadian conservative party needs to shed that image of the,

00:27:23.940 uh, they are the party of the old white man.

00:27:26.940 Um, and, uh, unfortunately I think something else that, that, that tends to, uh, affect the, the black vote,

00:27:35.940 um, the black conservative vote is, uh, black people in the, in Canada tend to live in more liberal strongholds.

00:27:44.940 Uh, so whether it's in Toronto and Vancouver here, um, that's, it is very, it's very, very difficult for conservatives to, to sort of penetrate these areas.

00:27:56.940 Um, and you don't get as much black people in like the prairies and, uh, all the parts of Canada that, that are, uh, more, uh, that have more of the white population.

00:28:09.940 Uh, but in terms of outreach, I think that emphasizing, um, sort of, uh, autonomy and, and support for, for individualism and, um, uh, economic, uh, development,

00:28:26.940 especially for, for more marginalized communities, uh, and, uh, less of a strict, uh, sort of, I guess, insistence on, on tradition in many ways.

00:28:43.940 Um, I think that that would go a long way towards, towards appealing to, to non-white voters, uh, for the conservative party.

00:28:52.940 Um, and, and, and I don't, I don't know what the magic bullet is.

00:28:58.940 I think, I think a lot of, a lot of black Canadians already invested in the narrative of liberal equals good.

00:29:04.940 Um, so I, I think that, uh, the, the party needs, needs to, again, marshal out resources, um, and empower its already existing, um, black constituents

00:29:21.940 to sort of go out there and, and sort of spread that message that there are other, other alternatives.

00:29:26.940 Uh, there, there, like, the fact that you're black doesn't necessarily mean that you need to vote liberal or NDP or any of the other parties in the left,

00:29:35.940 but there, there are actually tangibles that, that, um, the conservative party, um, provides for, for Canadians.

00:29:43.940 And really list those, make them clear, um, put, put on actionable items on their platform, uh, that would not only empower black, black people,

00:29:54.940 but, like, empower Canadians as a whole.

00:29:56.940 Um, I, I think that they should not fall into the trap of trying to play identity politics.

00:30:01.940 Right.

00:30:02.940 And I think that that turns, turns off a lot of people.

00:30:05.940 Like, I don't want to hear first black ex, you know, like, I, I, I really don't want to hear it. 1.00

00:30:10.940 Like, if you, if you, if, if, if, and this is just me personally speaking, like, if you are hiding people's immutable characteristics,

00:30:18.940 um, as opposed to them, the American based characteristics or, or, uh, principles or anything like that,

00:30:26.940 uh, it turns me off personally.

00:30:28.940 Uh, and, uh, I'd rather see, see people who, who are qualified, who have the credentials,

00:30:36.940 who, who really care about, uh, making it, making a difference, even though that they are black, 0.98

00:30:41.940 or whether or not they are black, um, sort of go out there and, and, and, and be the center, center

00:30:48.940 or the face of the consumptive party.

00:30:50.940 Uh, Sonia, I want to get your thoughts on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau,

00:30:53.940 who, he has a lot to say about these issues.

00:30:55.940 He says, yes, I, I know I wore the black face multiple times.

00:30:58.940 I was a younger man then.

00:30:59.940 I apologize.

00:31:00.940 Silly thing to do.

00:31:01.940 But, you know, look at me now. 0.97

00:31:02.940 I'm taking a knee at the rallies.

00:31:04.940 I'm, I'm doing everything I need to do.

00:31:06.940 Although on a previous episode of this podcast, we had Selena Cesar Chavan on the program.

00:31:10.940 Uh, she was a former liberal MP and she says, Justin Trudeau is a phony.

00:31:14.940 Now I imagine you and her would disagree on some of these issues.

00:31:17.940 She's, uh, more amenable.

00:31:18.940 I think it's fair to say to the black lives matter argument than, than you've described

00:31:22.940 yourself being, but, uh, what do you make of her characterization that, you know, Trudeau's

00:31:26.940 a phony and I guess, yes, in the white savior category.

00:31:29.940 Uh, I definitely think he falls in the, in the white savior category. 0.89

00:31:35.940 Um, and specifically in the politically expedient, uh, or taking political expedient actions,

00:31:44.940 um, rather than genuine, genuine care, um, for, for black people or people of color.

00:31:51.940 Um, I don't know if I'll call him a phony though.

00:31:53.940 That's the language that I would use.

00:31:55.940 Fair enough.

00:31:56.940 But, um, he, he turns the way he approaches issues regarding identity, um, whether it's

00:32:06.940 racial identity, gender identity, whatever, it just turns me off. 0.99

00:32:11.940 Um, again, because it doesn't come across as very sincere, it seems very performative.

00:32:18.940 Um, and I think a lot of people see that.

00:32:22.940 Now, maybe people feel like they are getting or they're benefiting a lot more from a Trudeau

00:32:28.940 administration than they would from a conservative administration.

00:32:31.940 And that's why they keep voting for him.

00:32:34.940 Um, but I don't, I, I, I don't think that, that his whole spiel is sustainable in the long run.

00:32:43.940 Um, he is, um, I, I honestly don't know how to put Justin Trudeau without, without being,

00:32:53.940 um, without being very, um, I guess not nice.

00:32:59.940 Um, okay.

00:33:00.940 Well, let me ask you this then, because there are, there are some other issues that are being

00:33:04.940 hotly debated that the prime minister, he also weighs in on.

00:33:07.940 And, and very recently it became basically a rule that you had to agree with the phrase

00:33:13.940 that, that the RCMP and policing in Canada is systemically racist.

00:33:18.940 And I believe that's extended more broadly to say that other institutions are systemically

00:33:22.940 racist.

00:33:23.940 Uh, there are situations of people who have, who have lost their regular media appearances

00:33:27.940 and, and, and even lost some other positions that they've held, uh, because they have kind

00:33:31.940 of humbly said, Oh no, I don't really agree with that.

00:33:33.940 I don't think it is, you know, systemic racism out there and so forth.

00:33:36.940 And there's definitely a period last year where, you know, you had to agree with that statement.

00:33:40.940 And I do wonder the degree to which that statement of, of, of, you know, this place is suffering

00:33:45.940 from systemic racism is being extended and expanded to apply, uh, to other realms and other institutions.

00:33:51.940 How do you feel about that?

00:33:52.940 Do you, do you believe it's accurate to, to say that, that places in Canada are plagued

00:33:56.940 with systemic racism?

00:33:58.940 Hmm.

00:33:59.940 So I never, whether personally or in my academic writings, I did not start with a conclusion

00:34:11.940 of systemic racism.

00:34:12.940 Um, that's because it's something that needs to be proven.

00:34:17.940 Um, it's not a, it's not a, it's a conclusion that needs evidence to back it up.

00:34:24.940 And I feel like a lot of people just start that as, start with it as a premise.

00:34:28.940 Um, so I do not think if, if there, if there is issues that are systemically racist in Canada,

00:34:35.940 and we need a lot more Supreme court cases then, uh, because that would be contravening the law. 0.99

00:34:42.940 Um, now a lot of people might be looking at unequal outcomes.

00:34:47.940 Now, so groups that are getting, uh, unequal outcomes out of these institutions and then make the case that,

00:34:54.940 that signifies systemic racism, to which I'm going to ask, to what extent, first of all,

00:35:02.940 and actually not even that's on the first question.

00:35:04.940 Like, how did you get to the conclusion that, that disparities in outcome equal disparities in treatment?

00:35:11.940 Um, and, uh, did you consider all the variables or the other explanations?

00:35:16.940 And even if there might be racial bias, to what extent, uh, those racial bias factor in?

00:35:22.940 Because it's one thing for, for racial bias to be at, I don't know, like 70%,

00:35:27.940 and that's another thing for racial bias to be at 10%.

00:35:30.940 Um, so what are the other factors that, that, that come into play?

00:35:35.940 And I think that just making the blanket accusation of systemic racism is very fundamentally flawed.

00:35:40.940 It, it relies a lot on causation, uh, when, when social studies are, uh, best correlations,

00:35:47.940 and correlations for a lot of variables to, to consider.

00:35:51.940 So, no, I do not think that institutions are systemically racist,

00:35:54.940 and if there is any systemically racist institution in Canada,

00:35:57.940 then I assume that, uh, we would have a lot more, a lot more, uh, court cases, um, sort of,

00:36:05.940 because there would be charter violations then.

00:36:07.940 Good point.

00:36:08.940 Um, and, and if you, if, if an institution comes out and proudly, proudly states that,

00:36:14.940 especially a public institution, uh, comes out and states that it is systemically racist,

00:36:20.940 then I expect every person in administration to resign.

00:36:24.940 Um,

00:36:25.940 That's so true.

00:36:26.940 Yeah.

00:36:27.940 And then, uh, an in-depth investigation as to how exactly, uh, the, the policies, the actions,

00:36:31.940 the, the, the, the behavior of people within that institution have committed, uh, uh, uh,

00:36:36.940 contributed to systemic racism.

00:36:37.940 So it's, it's just, it's, it's, to me, it's, it's very performative for, for a head of an organization.

00:36:46.940 It's to, especially if public institutions come out and claim systemic racism without any consequence.

00:36:52.940 If you are systemically racist, then there should be consequences for your institution.

00:36:56.940 Um, so it's like put up or shut up. 0.99

00:37:00.940 Right.

00:37:01.940 Um, and this is obviously not to disregard or to discount, uh, the fact that there are communities

00:37:07.940 in Canada or people in Canada that are, uh, disadvantaged, but let us investigate the reasons

00:37:14.940 why they're disadvantaged, rather than boiling everything down to race.

00:37:18.940 Um, because I think that that's just a very easy excuse, um, to, to subside or to, um, sort

00:37:25.940 of discount other compelling reasons for, for marginalization.

00:37:30.940 Well, Sonia, some people say that the current, uh, way to rectify any sort of, uh, you know,

00:37:35.940 racist challenges in society is to bring in critical race theory into our institutions

00:37:41.940 to teach classes about all of that.

00:37:43.940 We see an increase in unconscious bias training.

00:37:45.940 It's something that happens at a lot of corporations.

00:37:47.940 I believe it's, uh, in the school system to some degree, basically the idea that look, there's,

00:37:51.940 you know, you're being racist and you don't even know it left, right and center.

00:37:54.940 And here's the things to look for it.

00:37:56.940 Here's how you counter it and so on.

00:37:58.940 And this needs to be sort of an all hands on deck issue.

00:38:01.940 Is that an, uh, appropriate response to the challenges we face as society right now?

00:38:06.940 Uh, we cannot solve racism with racism.

00:38:12.940 It's just, that's counterintuitive and critical race theory.

00:38:17.940 While a, I mean that it's supposed to be an academic approach, a singular academic approach

00:38:24.940 to looking at law, culture and society.

00:38:27.940 Um, as, as flawed as it may be, as flawed as it is, um, it should not be the basis for, for public policy or for laws.

00:38:40.940 Uh, because again, it's, it's fundamental tenets are antithetical to, to the principles or the values of any society that concerns itself liberal.

00:38:53.940 Now, critical race theory rejects liberalism.

00:38:57.940 Um, so I, I'm very much baffled as to how, uh, any, any country or any society that considers itself liberal would embrace it.

00:39:08.940 Um, so it, it, it, it has, it embraces sort of what they call the permanence of racism.

00:39:14.940 The fact that racism is an endemic in primary aspect of, uh, the experiences of people of color.

00:39:21.940 Um, and that white people are invested in, in whether they like it or not, are invested in, in maintaining that status quo.

00:39:31.940 Um, so you have these, this enduring categories of oppressed and of oppressor and it is never changes.

00:39:41.940 So the only way people of color, uh, would be able to, to advance would be if they embrace some elements of whiteness. 1.00

00:39:51.940 So it's, so people of color really have no agency to advance themselves outside of the quote unquote white structure. 0.87

00:40:02.940 Uh, and that is problematic again, because it denies, uh, people of color, uh, uh, agency and, and the ability to act as, as autonomous individual, individuals.

00:40:13.940 And then they challenge the concept of like objectivity, of right, democracy, um, equal opportunity and all of that.

00:40:21.940 So the things that, that are the fundamental building blocks of Western societies, critical race theory flatly rejects.

00:40:29.940 So it concerns me when you had a, a, an organization like Global Affairs Canada using the, the tennis of critical race theory as a foundation for its anti-racism training.

00:40:42.940 These are supposed to be diplomats who are supposed to represent Canada.

00:40:46.940 So what does it say if, if you have a, a quote unquote liberal society embracing ideas that have roots in Marxism or, at least Marxian, Marxian, uh, analysis.

00:41:00.940 Um, I think, I think we need to think about it a lot.

00:41:03.940 So critical race theory is not just about teaching history.

00:41:06.940 We can teach history without, uh, using critical race theory.

00:41:09.940 Like there are tons of, of, of history professors who do it every single semester.

00:41:14.940 Um, so yes, there is a need to teach accurate history and history as it happens.

00:41:22.940 But critical race theory has a specific lens of looking at that history that in my opinion, uh, is very subjective.

00:41:31.940 Very, very, very, um, very much centered on blood guilt.

00:41:37.940 Um, uh, and it, it, it's sort of demonizes a group of people using values and morals of today, rather than contextualizing, um, what, what the society was like at the time that these atrocities will happen.

00:41:55.940 Obviously this is not to, this is not to excuse, um, the atrocities that happen.

00:42:00.940 Um, but at the same time we need to consider the fact that we've come a long way and the values that they are demonizing right now.

00:42:09.940 So objectivity, liberalism and all of that are the same values that allowed us or that have allowed us to get to the point that we are today.

00:42:17.940 So I don't think it has any pace in, in our schools, especially K through 12.

00:42:24.940 I don't think it has any pace in, in offices.

00:42:27.940 It only, it should speak to being an academic theory and a very, very flawed one at that.

00:42:33.940 And you know, it's interesting, Sonia, because there's a polling out from Angus Reid Institute asking, uh, respondents flat out, is Canada a racist country?

00:42:40.940 And two thirds of respondents say, no, it's not. And one third say, yes, it is. Uh, only 5% though, say they strongly agree with that statement.

00:42:50.940 So the rest just say Canada's racist or a bit more lukewarm on all of that.

00:42:53.940 And interestingly, to a point you made earlier, uh, people, they classify as the advocates, meaning, uh, people who consider themselves, you know, activists on these issues.

00:43:01.940 Um, they are actually twice as likely as, as visible minorities to say that police are prejudiced or racist, uh, towards nonwhite persons.

00:43:09.940 I, I found that, you know, very interesting to see that, you know, public perspective, uh, doesn't necessarily overlap with that of, of institutions.

00:43:16.940 And it reminds me of, of, of your, your personal story, which we, we haven't really gotten around to just sort of wrapping up what happened there.

00:43:22.940 Where you, uh, where the focus of this news article, um, BLM resorts to emotional blackmail, says, uh, Black Simon Fraser University academic.

00:43:30.940 And, uh, News 1130 over on the West Coast, they, they posted this story and then, uh, oh, they took it down.

00:43:37.940 They said, uh, uh, News 1130 has deleted a tweet about an article regarding the Black Lives Matter movement in an effort to ensure fair and balanced coverage.

00:43:45.940 We are seeking additional voices for this story.

00:43:48.940 And then they turned around later and said, the article also deleted did not meet our journalistic standards for balance and its potential negative impact was not fully considered.

00:43:58.940 So this, but this, this poor organization is saying, well, they didn't realize, you know, there's going to be a negative impact.

00:44:04.940 If we, if we let Sonia have her views, which I understand are pretty much the views you've been articulating on this podcast here.

00:44:10.940 I mean, good grief.

00:44:11.940 Yeah.

00:44:12.940 So, uh, I think that, that, that, uh, that particular situation is very unique, um, because, I mean, I, I, I obviously don't want to make unsubstatic accusations or anything like that.

00:44:29.940 But, um, looking through News 1130 and this current organization, I, I understood why that happened.

00:44:40.940 Um, and, uh, it's, it's very disheartening that the voices of a few have overtaken the voices of a man of many.

00:44:53.940 Uh, especially, uh, we, we, we're supposed to live in a quote unquote free society that embraces different, different ideas and opinions and things, especially evidence back to opinions.

00:45:06.940 Um, so to, to, to argue that, first of all, that my commentary, um, sort of brings any form of harm to, to the black community is quite disingenuous.

00:45:20.940 Um, because every polling, every, every measure of, of, uh, public opinion, especially in black community show that that's not the case.

00:45:31.940 My opinions are not, are not, uh, the minority here.

00:45:36.940 Um, and I think it's also very hypocritical for them to say that they're the people, other, that it did not meet their standards for fair, balanced journalism.

00:45:45.940 Right.

00:45:46.940 I mean, for, for the year prior, we were bombarded with messages, um, supporting black lives matter.

00:45:53.940 No one was allowed to criticize.

00:45:55.940 There was no, there was no effective critique of black lives matter in the mainstream media, especially in Canada here.

00:46:00.940 So I'm, I'm not sure whether, uh, what they mean by fair and balanced, because this is the only, as far as I know, the only other side, uh, of the, of the story that sort of got this mainstream attention.

00:46:13.940 So it's like, you are silencing the, the alternative voice, uh, while claiming to be fair and balanced.

00:46:21.940 I think that that, that, that, that move was, was very hypocritical of them, but I understand why they did that.

00:46:28.940 What a situation, Sonia, to just basically talk about what your earnest views are.

00:46:33.940 You're, you're an academic at Simon Fraser university.

00:46:35.940 You got some, some things to say about this in a pretty calm and considered way.

00:46:39.940 And oops, they got to pull the article.

00:46:41.940 They got to apologize for it.

00:46:42.940 Well, we're not going to be pulling this interview here with you today.

00:46:45.940 That's for sure.

00:46:46.940 Because, uh, you've definitely given some, uh, insightful, uh, remarks on your considered opinion.

00:46:51.940 So it was great to touch base with you.

00:46:52.940 Great to have you on the show.

00:46:54.940 Thanks so much for stopping by Sonia.

00:46:56.940 Thank you for having me.

00:46:58.940 Full comment is a post media podcast.

00:47:01.940 I'm Anthony Fury.

00:47:02.940 This episode was produced by Andre Pru with theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:47:06.940 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:47:08.940 You can subscribe to full comment on Apple podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:47:13.940 You can help us by giving us a rating or a review and by telling your friends about us.

00:47:17.940 Thanks for listening.

00:47:21.940 Thanks.

00:47:22.940 Thank you.

00:47:23.940 Thanks.

00:47:24.940 Bye.

00:47:25.940 Thanks.

00:47:38.940 How can you answer this?

00:47:40.940 I'm Giov disks.

00:47:41.940 Not for you.

00:47:42.940 Hey, Facilí.

00:47:43.940 What can you answer this?

00:47:44.940 So I can see you're talking to us.

00:47:45.940 I'm a kid who threw me real quick because I'm sorry.

00:47:47.940 I'll tell you how do I know what works.

Full Comment - July 04, 2021

The perils of ‘white saviours,’ Black Lives Matter and critical race theory

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