Full Comment - The schoolteacher who rejected wokeness—and paid for it

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00:01:58.720 There's an old song by the Canadian band Spirit of the West called Political, and I've been thinking about it as I prepared to speak to our next guest.

00:02:15.460 Hello, welcome to the Full Comment Podcast.

00:02:17.760 My name is Brian Lilly, your host, and our next guest is going to delve into the issue of politics in schools.

00:02:25.320 And the reason that song, Political, by Spirit of the West was in my head is because it's a song about a breakup.

00:02:33.620 A breakup because everything was so political that the couple just couldn't handle it anymore.

00:02:39.480 And that's kind of what happened to Chanel Fall, a woman who used to teach in the public school system and is currently not teaching. 1.00

00:02:48.760 And we'll get into that in a moment.

00:02:49.900 Before I bring on Chanel, though, I do want to remind you, you can subscribe.

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00:03:11.020 So a couple of years back, Chanel Fall was teaching, minding her own business at school, but getting a little bothered by some of the politics.

00:03:20.360 And then she posted something on Facebook that led to a complaint being filed and then a suspension because her Facebook post was not politically correct.

00:03:32.260 Chanel Fall joins me now from Ottawa this morning.

00:03:35.640 Good day.

00:03:36.380 Thank you so much for inviting me on.

00:03:38.640 I think this is a really important topic to discuss today.

00:03:42.320 Let's give me the elevator pitch version of what happened to you, you know, because I want to get into how you got into teaching and where things changed for you.

00:03:51.000 But did I describe it accurately?

00:03:53.060 You you made a post that somebody didn't like and and that started problems for you in the teaching profession?

00:04:01.260 Yeah, that's exactly it.

00:04:02.780 It was in February 2021.

00:04:04.600 I had recently kind of woken up to everything that was going on before that.

00:04:09.000 I like it was, I'd say, in the summer of 2020 that I kind of started to see things differently.

00:04:15.540 But I started speaking out against it very carefully.

00:04:19.260 I knew what kind of environment I was, you know, getting getting into.

00:04:25.460 And I made one post one day.

00:04:29.620 It was a private Facebook group.

00:04:31.040 And what I said was essentially that we shouldn't indoctrinate kids with critical race theory.

00:04:36.300 We should teach them how to think and not what to think.

00:04:40.240 And anyway, some a teacher I had never spoken with before.

00:04:45.000 She she saw that she thought it was harmful and offensive.

00:04:48.920 So she reported me to my principal.

00:04:51.540 The next day at school, I got a letter informing me that I was under investigation.

00:04:56.000 And as you said, that ended up landing me with a suspension.

00:04:59.980 It ended up landing me with another investigation.

00:05:05.080 Anyway, it's been ongoing ever since I'm still being investigated today.

00:05:11.380 You said that things change for you.

00:05:14.100 How would you describe yourself when you got into teaching?

00:05:16.900 Like what what attracted you to teaching?

00:05:20.720 Because people often go in for a specific reason, often an idealistic reason.

00:05:25.680 Um, what was it for you that drew you to teaching?

00:05:29.020 And then we'll talk about what changed after.

00:05:32.140 Well, I knew I wanted to be a teacher since I was probably in grade 10.

00:05:36.900 Um, I don't know exactly what it was, but I know I grew up in a big family.

00:05:42.520 I had a lot of younger cousins.

00:05:44.440 So I was always naturally the one who would organize activities for us to do when we got together.

00:05:50.520 I would I just loved doing that.

00:05:53.020 And, um, and then I guess I got to high school, I really, really liked my biology classes.

00:05:59.800 And I thought it would be just the best path for me to dive into that deeper and then to

00:06:08.580 teach that, um, to high school students.

00:06:11.460 So I went for it.

00:06:13.020 I, I, I would say probably the best word to describe myself at the time in university and

00:06:19.620 in my first years of teaching would be sheltered because I wasn't ideologically driven per

00:06:26.000 se, but I was not really aware of the political landscape that much.

00:06:30.040 I kind of just went along with things.

00:06:31.760 I didn't really do, do too much of my own thinking, if that makes sense.

00:06:37.400 It does.

00:06:38.200 So then I, I guess if there were politics at play when you first started teaching that

00:06:46.260 you wouldn't necessarily have noticed or cared or been bothered, would you say that's

00:06:52.480 accurate?

00:06:54.260 Yeah.

00:06:54.700 I think the, this ideology does a really good job at kind of hiding in the shadows.

00:06:59.980 It, it is covered up with really pretty language of being inclusive and not being racist and

00:07:05.580 all that, which obviously most people would agree with.

00:07:08.980 Um, so it's, it's, it's kind of, it's easy to let it kind of slide by and you just think

00:07:13.740 you're being a good person and you, you agree to it to a certain point.

00:07:18.360 But if you really, really get to thinking about it, um, it starts to raise a couple red flags

00:07:24.060 and you start to realize that anybody who objects to the ideology in any way is, uh, you know,

00:07:30.460 an outcast and has to be shamed and, um, that kind of thing.

00:07:34.840 I didn't agree with at all.

00:07:36.220 Um, so I would say one of the moments that shifted my thinking the most was the summer

00:07:41.760 of 2020 when, um, one of my old professors got canceled and, uh, I respected that man a

00:07:50.620 lot.

00:07:51.000 He had supervised my thesis.

00:07:52.440 He was a really, really good professor.

00:07:55.200 And all he said was that all lives mattered and people just came at him.

00:08:00.440 He ended up losing his job.

00:08:02.420 So, um, I stood up for him at that time and I remember being deleted by a handful of people

00:08:08.780 on Facebook and I thought, what is going on here?

00:08:12.600 You know?

00:08:13.160 So that was one of the moments that really shifted me.

00:08:16.340 What was it that got the professor canceled?

00:08:19.340 Uh, it was a tweet.

00:08:20.680 So it was after the George Floyd, uh, murder, uh, he put out a tweet.

00:08:28.280 He's an evolutionary biologist. 1.00

00:08:30.020 So he said something along the lines of, um, you know, like racism is stupid. 1.00

00:08:36.200 We are all evolved from single celled organisms. 1.00

00:08:41.120 Um, all lives matter.

00:08:44.460 He hashtagged all lives matter.

00:08:46.620 So he was supporting the movement. 1.00

00:08:48.880 He was saying racism is stupid. 0.99

00:08:51.000 We all have to treat each other like human beings and get along and, and not be racist, 1.00

00:08:56.440 you know?

00:08:56.780 Um, and, um, I guess he, he didn't understand the subtlety of, of what that all lives matter

00:09:03.960 hashtag had come to mean.

00:09:05.360 It was now a racist thing to say.

00:09:09.740 And yet knowing that you still made a post that led to you not being fully canceled, but

00:09:16.080 in some ways canceled.

00:09:17.460 Um, did you not get the memo?

00:09:19.720 You, you're not supposed to do that.

00:09:21.160 You're not supposed to go off side of, of what is allowed.

00:09:24.580 That's a good point.

00:09:26.760 Yes.

00:09:26.920 I did get the memo and I did know that there was risk involved.

00:09:30.600 And I guess the, the reason that I did it anyway, is that I got more afraid of the alternative.

00:09:36.820 Um, at a certain point, I started to think about, um, what happens when, you know, societies

00:09:43.040 devolve into this authoritarian kind of totalitarianism where everybody's lying and everybody has to think

00:09:48.760 the same thing and we cannot have opposing views anymore.

00:09:52.360 And that got to be even scarier than me just losing my job.

00:09:56.140 It was me losing my whole society.

00:09:58.480 You know, what do you mean by losing your whole society?

00:10:01.300 We, you felt pushed out, not just of teaching.

00:10:04.140 Well, I felt like this was a bigger risk.

00:10:07.020 It wasn't just about myself.

00:10:08.180 It was about our institutions and, and the basic principles that we were destroying in the

00:10:15.320 name of this ideology.

00:10:16.520 Um, I, I really felt that, you know, in 10 years or 20 years, our society look nothing

00:10:25.700 like it does today.

00:10:26.600 If everybody just, um, decides that they're going to shut off their brain and just go along

00:10:31.640 with whatever the activists say, even when, um, it leads to situations like, um, canceling

00:10:37.980 someone for saying that all lives matter.

00:10:39.960 Um, that's just not a good way to, um, for society to go forward.

00:10:47.040 What was it that in critical race theory that, that was bothering you?

00:10:52.180 What specifically, you know, because look, this has been hotly debated and I've had people

00:10:57.600 tell me critical race theory doesn't exist.

00:10:59.940 Well, that's not true.

00:11:01.140 It's a theory that's been around for decades.

00:11:03.200 People have said it's not taught in schools.

00:11:05.280 Um, we know that's not true because teachers like yourself come forward and say, Hey, wait

00:11:10.720 a minute, I'm not comfortable with this.

00:11:13.840 So beyond teaching kids that racism is wrong, which I don't know.

00:11:19.880 Well, actually I do hear from some crazy people via email now and again, who are racists, but

00:11:25.880 most people in civil society, regardless of politics, religion background, they don't subscribe

00:11:33.120 to racism as a way to live.

00:11:35.020 So, you know, it is the overwhelmingly popular position that racism is bad.

00:11:41.640 So what are, what is it that CRT was, uh, or you were being asked to teach in critical

00:11:46.320 race theory that was bothering you?

00:11:49.020 Well, I think what it is, is the word racist is, is now, uh, now means something different

00:11:55.160 than, than it used to mean.

00:11:56.740 So most people, when they say that they support these anti-racism, uh, initiatives, what they're

00:12:02.760 saying is they want to treat everyone the same regardless of their skin color.

00:12:06.900 And we're all human beings.

00:12:08.600 We all have the same opportunities, which is fine.

00:12:12.100 And most people would support that.

00:12:14.500 Um, but you get the activists who now have redefined racism and they've, they've, now it means

00:12:21.220 something like, um, this ever present, um, societal, like force that's always lingering in

00:12:33.160 the background somewhere that every single situation has racism in it.

00:12:37.620 You just got to find it.

00:12:39.120 Um, and it's not necessarily individual behavior even.

00:12:43.000 So you, you might not even know that you're participating in the racism, but it is just

00:12:47.900 there.

00:12:48.460 And now if you ask them to substantiate their claims and you say, you know, what's an example

00:12:54.140 of racism or how, how do you know that our society is racist?

00:12:57.100 Why are you so, um, sure of this?

00:13:00.500 All they can ever point to is differential group outcomes.

00:13:05.860 That's all they have.

00:13:07.260 So if you look at the, um, anti-racism professional advisory that the Ontario College of Teachers

00:13:14.880 put out, uh, in September, 2020, I believe, they have examples in there to, uh, well, to,

00:13:24.160 to, uh, justify kind of their, their position on this and what they've put forward is, okay,

00:13:31.040 here are examples.

00:13:32.680 We have black kids are being suspended at a higher rate than white kids or black kids aren't 1.00

00:13:42.460 succeeding as well than, uh, as white students, um, things like that.

00:13:48.600 And, you know, any respectable academic will look at that statistic and say, okay, what

00:13:56.700 is causing this?

00:13:57.580 And they can look at multiple factors, right?

00:13:59.940 They can do a multivariate analysis and determine, okay, what is, what is contributing to this?

00:14:06.200 What does, what does the family, the average family of a black student versus a white student

00:14:12.720 look like?

00:14:13.660 How, um, you know, what, what's playing into this?

00:14:17.120 Let's figure it out so that we can actually, um, solve it.

00:14:21.160 But, uh, the critical race theorists believe that it's all due to racism.

00:14:25.720 It's all discrimination and bias.

00:14:28.720 And the solution is to put in more anti-discrimination, anti-bias training. 0.88

00:14:35.140 And then, uh, somehow these, uh, you know, group outcome differences are going to all even

00:14:42.440 out.

00:14:43.400 Well, well, what if it's socioeconomic factors?

00:14:47.620 You know, I'm thinking of, um, some neighborhoods in Toronto, uh, with large black populations that

00:14:54.860 are economically, they're at the bottom and that leads to a lot of outcomes.

00:15:02.840 You know, if you read, follow the social science on it, if you just completely discount the

00:15:07.880 socioeconomic and say, well, no, it's just racism, then you're not going to address the socioeconomic

00:15:15.300 factors that are actually at the core of it.

00:15:17.860 Exactly.

00:15:18.260 And these socioeconomic factors would affect people of all races, right?

00:15:23.460 So a lot of people are, you know, really disadvantaged, uh, white folks who have no money whatsoever.

00:15:30.260 They're living paycheck to paycheck.

00:15:31.920 They, they can hardly, you know, sustain themselves.

00:15:34.500 And then they're being told that school, you know, when maybe they might not even have a

00:15:39.000 lunch that day, they're being told that they have all the power and privilege in society.

00:15:43.300 Um, I mean, what does this do for a child's mental health?

00:15:46.660 What does it do for their, um, you know, they're just their sense of identity in the world and

00:15:52.200 their, their motivation?

00:15:54.620 Like it's.

00:15:55.800 Did you see it create division among students in, in class?

00:16:01.180 Um, I would say so.

00:16:03.220 I think, um, like I haven't been in a classroom now for a year and a half, so it's hard to really

00:16:10.460 know exactly how it is today, but I will say that from the time I started teaching to the

00:16:15.580 time I stopped, which is four years, um, I found that students were more reluctant to

00:16:24.320 share their, their opinions by the end of it than when I started.

00:16:28.060 Um, I think there's this self-censorship going on, which is, um, just really impacting how

00:16:36.560 students can, can learn to think, you know, in a classroom, like it's, they just have to

00:16:41.920 hold it back unless it's, unless their opinion is consistent with the ideology, they are too

00:16:47.200 scared to share it.

00:16:49.360 We saw that recently with the story, um, in the Ottawa Valley, um, student in small town

00:16:56.180 of Renfrew, uh, no, no insult to Renfrew, but, um, you know, compared to big cities, it's,

00:17:01.920 it's fairly small, uh, small community and a student there at a Catholic high school was

00:17:08.280 suspended for saying there are only two genders.

00:17:11.240 And then when he decided to come back to class, cause he wanted to go to school again, uh, but

00:17:17.380 he hadn't apologized and met all the other criteria.

00:17:19.920 So suspension was still on.

00:17:21.340 He was actually, he was arrested.

00:17:23.540 Um, that student is being denied an education because he has a different point of view.

00:17:30.040 Uh, he says that there are other students that are self-censoring and that's what you

00:17:35.640 found in, in the classroom on, on this.

00:17:38.340 And I'm guessing other topics.

00:17:39.860 Yeah, definitely.

00:17:40.460 And I mean, I get secondhand accounts from a lot of people too.

00:17:43.840 Like I'm just saying what I've seen, um, from my own personal experience, but I hear from

00:17:49.660 teachers and parents all the time.

00:17:51.140 And I get parents telling me that, uh, for example, their six year old, uh, white kid now

00:17:57.220 is being told by, by other kids at the school that they can't play with them because they're

00:18:02.240 white and things like that.

00:18:03.340 So, and, and it happens both ways, I'm sure.

00:18:06.020 But this, I mean, being super, super hyper aware of your race when you're six or seven

00:18:11.860 is just, it's, it's not natural first of all.

00:18:14.640 And, and it leads to obviously more tribalism.

00:18:17.880 And I don't think we're thinking through the effects of, of this teaching at all.

00:18:22.460 Um, what's been the response from your fellow teachers?

00:18:26.380 Um, you know, I, I'm, I'm sure many of them have views on you.

00:18:30.780 Some may be positive, some may be negative.

00:18:33.980 Um, the positive ones I'm sure can't say things in public, but what's been the feedback

00:18:38.880 you've gotten both positive and negative?

00:18:41.320 Yeah, that's right.

00:18:41.980 The ones that support me have not done so in a, in a public manner, um, really.

00:18:46.820 But, uh, yeah, the teachers that I know in real life, um, I would say that I, well, I've

00:18:53.980 been deleted and blocked by a lot of them, um, which was hard at first when I didn't really

00:19:00.940 have like a, you know, a circle, a group that was supporting me.

00:19:07.100 Now I finally am at a place where I feel more comfortable with my views.

00:19:11.000 But at first it was really, um, difficult to see that, um, I do have a lot of teachers

00:19:16.920 who have reached out and they support me, but as you said, they can't say so publicly.

00:19:22.700 And a lot of them who, um, are a mystery to me, to be honest, they're still on my Facebook

00:19:28.160 page and they have not reached out to me at all, even though they know what's happening.

00:19:32.140 So, um, I'm curious myself to know what they're thinking.

00:19:36.280 Do you want to go back into teaching?

00:19:37.760 Um, I would love to go back into teaching.

00:19:40.040 Um, I don't know if that's something that's going to happen for me just because, um, you

00:19:46.660 know how it is, um, you know, if they Google my name, they're going to find all this, all

00:19:51.680 kinds of stuff about my political views and it doesn't align with their, their school values

00:19:56.820 now.

00:19:57.100 So I, I'm not going to put my hopes up too much, uh, but I do really hope that one day

00:20:04.080 I will get hired again and I'll be able to provide, uh, my students with, you know, balanced

00:20:09.700 opposing views on, on issues and not just push one way of thinking.

00:20:14.720 All right.

00:20:15.000 Uh, Chanel, we're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, I want to ask you about

00:20:18.360 your decision to run for, uh, trustee and what your advice would be for people who are

00:20:25.180 concerned about the direction of the education system.

00:20:27.740 Bank more encores when you switch to a Scotiabank banking package, learn more at scotiabank.com

00:20:37.340 slash banking packages conditions apply Scotiabank you're richer than you think.

00:20:43.540 So Chanel, you moved out of the classroom.

00:20:46.120 You stopped teaching a little while ago, but you decided last fall to run for a school trustee

00:20:52.220 in, in Ottawa.

00:20:54.020 Uh, what prompted that?

00:20:55.700 Was it the direction you saw the school system going in the issues that we were talking about

00:20:59.860 that made you uncomfortable on the teaching side and, and you felt you could make a difference

00:21:04.500 as a trustee?

00:21:06.200 What prompted it was probably a lot of peer pressure.

00:21:09.480 No, um, I had a lot of people telling me I should do it.

00:21:12.500 And it was a very last minute decision.

00:21:14.700 It was a few days before the election.

00:21:16.660 I just thought, okay, I've never done this before.

00:21:18.640 I have no idea what I'm doing, but I was in the school system.

00:21:22.780 Um, I think I have good ideas in terms of what school boards should be, should be focusing

00:21:27.120 on and what kind of identity, identity politics we should get rid of.

00:21:31.940 And I just thought, well, I'll put my name forward and see what happens.

00:21:35.920 And, uh, yeah, I mean, it, it was a fun experience.

00:21:39.900 I, I really hope that more people will, I mean, well, fun in terms of, you know, I, I did get

00:21:46.240 smeared in media a lot and it was up, up and down and all of that, but, you know, you, you live

00:21:51.940 and learn and, and you, now that's something that I've done.

00:21:55.820 I've checked off my list.

00:21:56.840 Maybe I'll do it again one day.

00:21:58.100 Maybe I won't.

00:21:58.840 But, um, I, I really hope that people will get more involved in the local school boards,

00:22:04.480 um, cause they're making a lot of really harmful decisions at this point.

00:22:09.060 Well, when you were in teaching, where did you see this push for, uh, politicization with,

00:22:16.140 you know, regardless of what type it is, not just critical race theory, but there's all

00:22:19.760 kinds of politicization in the classroom that I see.

00:22:23.300 Um, I'm not sure that if my kids were little again, that I would put them in the public school

00:22:29.200 system in Ontario or anywhere else, because it just seems like a constant battle, a constant

00:22:35.080 fight.

00:22:36.100 You just want your kids to, to get a good education.

00:22:39.180 And there's a constant ongoing whack-a-mole type, um, feature to the, uh, the, the politics 0.53

00:22:48.360 of it.

00:22:49.000 Where did you see it coming from?

00:22:50.300 Was it from the school boards?

00:22:51.840 Was it from the ministry of education?

00:22:53.840 You know, my experience, um, both as a, uh, a parent, when my kids were in school as a,

00:23:00.200 you know, short time school council member, and from knowing a lot of teachers is that

00:23:05.200 often it was the, the teachers unions and the, the consultants within the boards, uh, you

00:23:12.500 know, they hire these consultants for everything under the sun.

00:23:16.360 And you wonder why at the education budget goes up and there's no more spending in the

00:23:22.220 classroom, it's going to the educrats.

00:23:24.700 Um, that was my experience, both the unions and these educrat consultants.

00:23:30.660 Was that your experience as well as a teacher that you were being pushed from both the board

00:23:36.280 and from your union to adopt different political views or, or push different political agendas?

00:23:43.160 Oh yeah.

00:23:43.660 A hundred percent.

00:23:44.320 It's coming from all angles.

00:23:45.760 There's the boards pushing it.

00:23:47.300 They've got their initiatives all the time.

00:23:49.240 Like, oh, we've got a black history month here and this transphobia week here and all of

00:23:56.040 anti-bullying week.

00:23:57.660 And all of this stuff is used to usher in the ideology, um, at all, all the time.

00:24:04.140 I mean, um, at the OCSB, the Ottawa Catholic board, they're doing standing against racism week

00:24:10.820 this week after just ending their, their whole month of anti-racism in February for black history

00:24:17.720 month.

00:24:18.020 It's just never ending.

00:24:19.780 So it's coming from everywhere.

00:24:21.500 It's coming also from individual teachers who, um, you know, if they're active on social

00:24:26.340 media and they're following the latest world trends, they will want to bring that into their

00:24:31.300 classroom.

00:24:32.380 And the consultants, as you said, there's so many of them and they are making a ton of money.

00:24:37.940 Um, some of them charge from a thousand to $2,000 just for one workshop and that's out

00:24:43.760 of taxpayer money.

00:24:44.700 So it's, it's really a scandal.

00:24:47.120 Um, and, uh, but I will say though, like as much as there is a lot of pressure, there

00:24:52.160 is still an opportunity for teachers in the system to not push this stuff in their own

00:24:58.060 individual classrooms.

00:24:59.060 As long as they be, they're quiet about it.

00:25:02.680 Um, I, I know a lot of good teachers who are still in the system and they're doing their

00:25:07.220 best to provide some kind of balance.

00:25:09.160 It's just that I guess the problem is when you have the activist teachers who, who want

00:25:14.740 to push only one way of thinking.

00:25:16.300 In fact, they probably don't even know what the other side is saying.

00:25:20.140 Um, they have to go ahead and they're encouraged to, to do that.

00:25:24.360 So is it just a sign if a teacher is quiet and not political, that they're necessarily

00:25:30.540 conservative?

00:25:31.960 Um, because it, you know, obviously a lot of this comes from the progressive woke left.

00:25:36.440 Um, if you're not participating in it, are you giving yourself away as a non-conformist,

00:25:42.220 as a centrist, as a conservative or something other than the, the, the view of the day?

00:25:50.480 Actually, that's a good question because more and more what I've noticed is

00:25:54.140 um, before it used to be more of an opt-in method where, um, you got to be, you got to

00:26:02.700 like step up and do more activism if you wanted to.

00:26:05.860 But now it's almost like, um, everyone's expected to do the activism.

00:26:10.800 And if you don't want to do it, you need to opt out in some cases.

00:26:14.740 Like, um, for example, if they have a day where everyone needs to wear black, which happened

00:26:21.740 at the Ottawa Catholic board, um, not too long ago, maybe last month, it was united in black

00:26:28.760 day for racism.

00:26:30.960 Now you need to wear a black shirt because otherwise you're going to, uh, you know, be,

00:26:37.020 it's going to be very clear where you stand on this stuff.

00:26:39.880 And it's not that you're for racism, of course, I should specify it's, it's just that maybe

00:26:45.480 you don't believe that that particular method of addressing racism is the best one.

00:26:50.940 You are getting sent a lot of information and on your social media, you are now, uh, posting

00:26:56.140 what people are sending you.

00:26:58.380 Who are you getting this from?

00:26:59.980 Is it teachers who are, I'm not asking you to expose anyone, but, um, but you know, is it

00:27:08.480 teachers that are sending?

00:27:10.200 You know what?

00:27:11.200 Uh, most of the stuff that I post is just me, um, finding it.

00:27:15.080 It's all available online.

00:27:16.680 People can do exactly what I'm doing.

00:27:18.540 You don't need to be, you don't need to have any kind of blogging codes.

00:27:21.420 You can just, you can message me.

00:27:23.340 I'll tell you what I do.

00:27:24.340 I'll tell you how to find it because honestly I could work at this, um, from 24 hours a day

00:27:30.100 for probably years and years and years.

00:27:32.000 And I would still have way too much material that I wouldn't be able to post.

00:27:35.080 It's nonstop.

00:27:36.040 Every rabbit hole that I find brings me to another rabbit hole of more wokeism in our

00:27:43.040 schools.

00:27:43.600 So, um, I do get sent maybe 25% of what I post.

00:27:49.000 Um, that comes from, I would say probably 50, 50 teachers and parents.

00:27:54.880 Um, but the rest is just stuff I'm finding on my own.

00:27:58.640 Every time I write on these sorts of things, you know, for example, uh, um, a report that

00:28:04.940 was issued by the head of Ontario's public service, declaring that the entire Ontario public

00:28:11.020 service is based on white supremacists, uh, foundations, um, that, that was a statement

00:28:18.620 by one person not named in a focus group.

00:28:22.260 And, and, and it became the, the focus of the, um, the actual report.

00:28:27.900 Every time I write on these sorts of things, it's a steady stream of people saying, thank

00:28:34.340 you for this.

00:28:35.280 Have you seen this one?

00:28:36.620 And there does seem to be an industry of consultants.

00:28:39.260 And in my view, it, they're, they're brought in to run these courses, but oftentimes they're

00:28:45.220 not dealing with Canadian examples.

00:28:47.700 There is, there are racism continues to exist in this country and it's a problem that should

00:28:53.900 be discussed, should be, uh, dealt with.

00:28:56.260 Uh, but if you are constantly giving children or adults in a workplace, American examples, well,

00:29:05.620 that doesn't match the Canadian lived experience, does it?

00:29:10.340 Yeah, no, it doesn't.

00:29:11.700 A lot of it is brought in, um, from the States.

00:29:14.400 Their examples are just all based on the same kind of thinking.

00:29:17.900 Um, yeah, I mean, I could name you offhand, like, uh, consultant after consultant, they do

00:29:23.920 the same thing.

00:29:24.580 They get paid thousands and thousands.

00:29:26.740 They go in there and they convince kids that, um, you know, the race is a really important

00:29:32.580 part about them.

00:29:33.380 They need to, um, acknowledge other people's race and treat them differently on that basis.

00:29:40.500 Um, it's really, really terrible, dangerous stuff.

00:29:43.780 What's the, the worst thing that you, you saw as, as a teacher that, that came forward?

00:29:49.440 What, um, what was the part that, that made you most concerned for what students were going

00:29:56.680 to be exposed to?

00:29:57.500 Um, well, when I was working as a teacher that last year, um, I was still sort of waking

00:30:06.200 up.

00:30:06.600 I wasn't, I don't know.

00:30:08.900 I'll say most of what I've found has come after I was, I had left that system.

00:30:16.300 Yeah.

00:30:16.880 You know, it can be after you've left, but I mean, sometimes I look at, at what is there

00:30:22.980 and, and I'm dumbfounded finding out that Thanksgiving is, is racist.

00:30:28.140 And then you find out, well, what's that based on?

00:30:30.900 Well, it's based on a schoolhouse rock cartoon version of the American Thanksgiving with the

00:30:35.700 pilgrims and the pioneers meeting in Massachusetts.

00:30:38.260 That's not Canada, but it shows up in Canadian, um, materials on anti-racism training.

00:30:44.600 Well, I'll say probably the most striking thing for me has been to see it come into math

00:30:49.980 class.

00:30:50.400 Um, I mean, you would think that math and science would be, um, you know, somewhat protected

00:30:57.940 from this kind of flawed thinking.

00:31:01.120 Um, but it's not the case.

00:31:02.820 Um, a lot of math, math teachers are actually some of the biggest advocate, um, activists

00:31:08.380 that I see, um, for this stuff.

00:31:11.040 They, they want, they think that math is racist because for example, um, in the past when grade

00:31:17.780 nine math was divided into applied and academic courses, we would see, uh, an over representation

00:31:24.200 of black students in the applied course.

00:31:26.580 So they figured that was racist and that math in order to make math better or more equitable

00:31:33.240 and all of that, we needed to make it culturally relevant.

00:31:37.600 They call it culturally relevant and responsive.

00:31:40.840 So this is the CRRP, um, thing that they're bringing in, which is, for example, giving more,

00:31:49.300 giving more, uh, reference points in the questions that, that might touch on, uh, different cultures

00:31:56.560 and, um, not so much emphasis on marks and on success and just not having exams, not having

00:32:06.800 standardized tests anymore.

00:32:08.760 Um, I guess all of this stuff is supposed to help, um, black students succeed or something.

00:32:13.700 I'm not sure.

00:32:15.040 I, uh, well, I remember writing on that in the Ontario curriculum, their grade nine math

00:32:19.880 curriculum that came out in 2021 at a time when, um, most students were not meeting the

00:32:27.480 provincial standard and the, the curriculum read mathematics is often positioned as an

00:32:34.740 objective and pure discipline.

00:32:36.740 However, the content and context in which it is taught, the mathematicians who are celebrated

00:32:41.620 in the importance that is placed upon mathematics by society or subjective mathematics has been

00:32:47.120 used to normalize racism and marginalization of non-Eurocentric mathematical knowledges

00:32:52.180 and a decolonial anti-racist approach to mathematics education makes visible its historical

00:32:57.920 roots in social constructions.

00:33:00.380 Um, if you understand math and the history of math and the fact that a lot of the, the theories,

00:33:07.960 you know, people will say, well, it started with the Greeks.

00:33:10.380 Yes.

00:33:10.740 And then we also had Arabic mathematicians, Indian mathematicians, they invented the zero. 0.99

00:33:16.100 Uh, it, it has been a worldwide, uh, set of contributions that each culture is built

00:33:22.900 upon.

00:33:23.300 I, I don't know how that becomes white nationalist.

00:33:26.900 Right.

00:33:27.340 And I don't know about you, but when I took math in high school, I never remember being

00:33:31.580 told that someone was white or black or whatever.

00:33:33.960 We didn't care about the race of the, the mathematician we were talking about.

00:33:37.700 In fact, we didn't even hardly talk about the mathematicians.

00:33:40.120 We talked about, um, how to do math, you know?

00:33:42.880 Um, so it's really bizarre.

00:33:45.400 Like I'll read you just, um, from the TDSB, they, they put out a, uh, file online and anyone

00:33:52.500 can find it.

00:33:53.260 It's called pedagogical considerations for equitable and culturally relevant and responsive mathematics.

00:34:00.460 And, you know, there's a list of questions there.

00:34:03.320 It's like a checklist.

00:34:04.040 Um, and it says like, for example, does the task or resource incorporate a social justice

00:34:11.160 perspective, um, consider how the resource explores current issues, uh, consider whether

00:34:18.040 the, the resource encourages students to use mathematics as a tool to, to address and challenge

00:34:25.200 injustices and propose possible solutions.

00:34:28.760 Um, there's stuff like, have you considered how the information shows bias and all kinds

00:34:36.980 of, you know, social justice, typical language that, that you would, you would not expect

00:34:44.680 to find in a course like math, but here we are.

00:34:48.980 What's next for you?

00:34:50.140 What do you do next?

00:34:52.160 Is it, uh, get your name cleared?

00:34:54.300 What's the status of the investigations you're facing?

00:34:56.620 Well, last month I had a bit of good news.

00:34:59.080 They dropped one of my investigations, the one pertaining to the, uh, critical race theory

00:35:05.060 comment on Facebook.

00:35:06.120 So that was good.

00:35:07.860 Uh, but they just started up a new investigation, um, last week.

00:35:13.000 Um, and that one, so the Ontario College of Teachers, so the licensing board for all teachers

00:35:20.140 in Ontario, uh, so they could strip me of my license.

00:35:23.240 They could suspend me.

00:35:24.620 They could do all kinds of things.

00:35:26.080 So the problem now, um, is one tweet that I put out in October of this year when I was

00:35:33.200 running for the school board and the tweet.

00:35:36.360 Or October of 2022.

00:35:38.080 Exactly.

00:35:38.680 Yeah.

00:35:39.440 And the tweet I put out was an email that had been sent to me by, uh, an OCDSB.

00:35:45.340 So the Ottawa public board staff.

00:35:47.340 And what it said was that there was a school, uh, school board wide initiative where they

00:35:56.840 would be hosting after school virtual hangouts with, with the kids, but not just any kid.

00:36:03.520 It was on Monday, um, it was for Muslim kids. 0.95

00:36:07.700 And on Thursdays, it was for black kids.

00:36:10.300 And on Tuesday, Wednesday, it was for LGBT kids.

00:36:14.320 We had to be kindergarten and up to attend.

00:36:16.920 So I got that email and I posted it and they took issue with the fact that, well, they're

00:36:25.500 accusing me of having put links to the meetings in, like having shared links to the meetings

00:36:31.100 in that, um, email, even though there are no meeting links in it.

00:36:35.580 And they're telling me that, um, I put students at risk because some of the meeting codes were

00:36:43.380 in the email that I shared, even though anyway, it's a long story, but there was different

00:36:48.640 sections to the emails.

00:36:49.840 And from my perspective, I didn't, I didn't share anything that I couldn't, that I was told

00:36:56.120 not to share.

00:36:56.920 So, um, yeah, now, so I guess I just wait for that and see where that goes.

00:37:02.520 It is, uh, it is a bizarre world for you, uh, Chanel.

00:37:06.400 Thanks for your time today and, um, keep in touch and let us know where things go from

00:37:10.860 here.

00:37:11.500 Yeah, absolutely.

00:37:12.580 Thank you so much for having me on.

00:37:14.240 The full comment is a post-media podcast.

00:37:16.760 My name is Brian Lilly.

00:37:17.660 Your host.

00:37:18.180 This episode was produced by Andre Pru with theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:37:22.460 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:37:24.400 Again, remember you can subscribe to full comment on Apple podcasts, Google, Spotify, Amazon music,

00:37:30.140 listen through the app or your Alexa enabled devices.

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00:37:40.020 Thanks for listening until next time.

00:37:41.740 I'm Brian Lilly.

Full Comment - March 27, 2023

The schoolteacher who rejected wokeness—and paid for it

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