Full Comment - The truth in Xi's 'very naive' insult to Trudeau

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00:01:12.740 Hello and welcome to the Full Comment Podcast.

00:01:22.880 My name is Jackson Dohert.

00:01:24.120 I am the guest host for today.

00:01:25.840 I'm joined by Charles Burton, who is a senior fellow at the McDonnell-Laurier Institute

00:01:30.800 and an expert on Canadian-Chinese relations, which is great because China is in the news

00:01:37.680 very much with allegations of Chinese meddling in Canadian elections and a testy exchange

00:01:43.800 between our Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, and Chinese leader, Xi Jinping, recently at

00:01:50.260 the G20 summit.

00:01:52.100 Thank you very much, Charles, for joining us.

00:01:55.400 It's great to be on the podcast.

00:01:56.760 Thank you very much.

00:01:58.860 We're going to talk about that exchange between Xi and Justin Trudeau, but I wanted to start

00:02:03.940 by taking things back a little bit.

00:02:05.940 You were a student at one point in China, and I was wondering if you could tell us when

00:02:11.100 that was and what your impressions were of the country then, specifically its political

00:02:16.160 leadership.

00:02:18.500 Yes.

00:02:19.020 Well, when Canada established diplomatic relations with China in 1970, there was a program agreed

00:02:26.580 to by our Minister of External Affairs and the Chinese Premier of the State Council, Zhou

00:02:32.120 Enlai, to exchange 10 students from each country.

00:02:36.320 So, I was one of the 10 in my year who was sent to study in China.

00:02:42.960 I'd already learned Chinese at Cambridge University, so I was able to, you know, fit into the program

00:02:49.500 there.

00:02:50.280 This was the class of 77, which actually entered university in 1978.

00:02:57.640 It was the first class that had entered university in China after the disruption of the Cultural Revolution.

00:03:04.380 Most of my roommates and classmates were about 30 years old, having graduated high school, you

00:03:12.720 know, 65, 66, 67, and then getting into university in 78.

00:03:18.380 At that time, you know, it was a very optimistic period.

00:03:24.000 Chairman Mao had died.

00:03:26.040 When I first got there, there were portraits of Chairman Mao and his successor, Hua Guofeng,

00:03:32.380 above the blackboard in the classroom in about the same place in my elementary school classroom

00:03:38.020 where we had a portrait of Her Majesty the Queen.

00:03:42.060 But the ideological restrictions were gradually being removed, and the professors at the university

00:03:48.640 who had been sent out to labor in the people's communes or were working in factories or in prison

00:03:55.200 were gradually what they referred to as rehabilitated and returned to work in the university.

00:04:03.020 So I had an opportunity to have a lot of access to very distinguished Chinese scholars

00:04:10.200 who had, you know, become prominent before the revolution in 1949

00:04:16.820 who had just been returned to university after 10 years of, you know, prison or hard labor hell.

00:04:25.440 I studied the history of Chinese ancient thought in the philosophy department,

00:04:31.180 so I was reading ancient Chinese texts.

00:04:34.080 But, you know, there was still a lot of politics there.

00:04:36.080 You know, we still labored in the people's commune fields as part of the curriculum.

00:04:45.100 But there was great optimism among the students about the future of China,

00:04:50.880 the end of the policies of repressive revolution,

00:04:55.460 and the prospect of bringing China into the global community

00:05:00.660 as a democratic nation that had enormous potential.

00:05:06.800 Unfortunately, by the 1980s, that dream was shattered,

00:05:10.560 but at the time I was there, it was an extremely good time.

00:05:14.480 And I would say that, you know, the opportunity for a Canadian

00:05:18.500 to so fully integrate into the Chinese society and university has long passed.

00:05:24.780 I mean, I had the same conditions pretty much as any of the domestic students.

00:05:30.640 The Chinese authorities wouldn't allow a Canadian to get so close and so intimate

00:05:37.400 with the realities of China today.

00:05:40.540 So it was a great experience for me.

00:05:42.100 I stayed there for four years with virtually no contact to Canada over that period

00:05:48.140 because, you know, this is pre-internet and pre-easy long-distance telephoning

00:05:53.940 and came back to Canada really quite transformed by the experience.

00:05:58.700 So you've established yourself as one of the great critics of Chinese policy here in Canada.

00:06:06.580 I was wondering if you could talk about the formation of those views.

00:06:10.800 How much of that was when you were a student?

00:06:12.660 And how much of it was during your time working there in the diplomatic service?

00:06:19.100 Well, you know, certainly I was very pleased to see the economic rise of China.

00:06:27.020 You know, when I was a student there, everything was rationed, particularly food.

00:06:32.440 And so we really didn't get enough to eat.

00:06:34.600 I lost an awful lot of weight while I was there because the rice ration just wasn't enough.

00:06:40.260 And I eventually had my family mail food in from Canada.

00:06:46.200 But, you know, when I was working in the embassy, I was very much taken with the idea

00:06:51.040 that if Chinese people became aware of how a democratic society like Canada works,

00:07:00.060 that this is something that they would want for their country.

00:07:02.880 So, you know, we put a lot of Canadian taxpayers' dollars, I think probably close to a billion,

00:07:09.900 into what was called good governance, democratic development, human rights programming.

00:07:15.540 And so on my second posting at the Canadian Embassy in Beijing,

00:07:18.880 I was working out of the political section in the civil society program,

00:07:25.100 which was a program to try and encourage a Chinese non-profit sector,

00:07:29.580 you know, to encourage the establishment of parallel to, say, the Canadian Cancer Society

00:07:34.700 or any number of organizations where citizens take responsibility for their society.

00:07:41.580 And we had programs to train Chinese judges.

00:07:45.360 We built a building in Beijing for preparation for a large-scale program of exchange,

00:07:53.440 primarily with the University de Montréal.

00:07:55.080 And we had a lot of other programming designed to try and bring the Canadian way over.

00:08:02.920 And I was the Canadian, I think, most involved in the bilateral human rights dialogues,

00:08:08.620 which went on for about, I don't know, six or seven years from the late 90s until the middle 2000s.

00:08:17.800 And, you know, we had hoped that if senior Chinese people in positions of policymaking authority

00:08:25.940 understood how our democratic system functions, what an independent rule of law is,

00:08:32.440 how, you know, one has these arm's-length relationships with civil society,

00:08:38.380 including free press function, that they would want that for China.

00:08:43.060 You know, I think in retrospect, there was a high degree of naivete.

00:08:50.060 I think the Chinese authorities agreed to these programs, providing Canada provided serious funding

00:08:56.580 for infrastructural and other development that met the needs of the Chinese communist planning process.

00:09:03.280 And in 2005, I was engaged by what was the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade,

00:09:11.740 now known as GAC, Global Affairs Canada, to write an assessment of the dialogues.

00:09:17.920 And I went around China trying to find out what the impact of these dialogues had been.

00:09:22.620 And I found that really the Chinese seemed to regard human rights dialoguing as something they were doing for Canada

00:09:29.340 so that, for example, if there was a question in the House of Commons about the arrest of, say,

00:09:35.400 a political distant or a Catholic bishop, the appropriate minister could get up and say,

00:09:41.680 yes, we're addressing these concerns through a confidential dialogue process that's kept confidential

00:09:48.700 so it'll be effective.

00:09:49.840 But trust us, you know, we're doing what we can to promote Canadian values in China.

00:09:55.140 This turns out to have been, you know, pretty dissembling.

00:10:01.360 And after my report came out, the Chinese government changed their venue for their dialogue process

00:10:09.080 from the organization's department to the bilateral desks of their foreign ministry.

00:10:15.100 And the international process in Brussels for nations to compare their bilateral dialogues with China was closed down.

00:10:25.360 And I think that the last of the dialogues ended just a couple of years ago.

00:10:29.880 The Australians had one where quite senior Australian officials were involved,

00:10:34.480 thereby requiring their Chinese counterparts to participate.

00:10:38.400 The Canadian dialogue was never taken that seriously by the government of Canada.

00:10:42.900 And, you know, I think after that, I developed a degree of cynicism about the prospects for China

00:10:52.000 to become a responsible stakeholder in global affairs and felt more and more concerned

00:10:59.560 about what China's rise would mean for China domestically and for China's role in the world.

00:11:09.460 And I think that, you know, I started to really, you know, start to write opinion pieces in newspapers

00:11:20.880 and do a lot of commentary on China and evidence to various Canadian parliamentary committees.

00:11:29.860 You know, my report on the Human Rights Dialogue was considered by the Foreign Affairs Committee.

00:11:34.860 Their report was never released by the government, though Parliament died before it came out.

00:11:41.380 But I think about 2006, I started to try and ring the bell of concern over China.

00:11:49.420 And, you know, not to be immodest about it, I think a lot of what I have been writing over the past 15 years

00:11:56.340 is standing up pretty well to the test of time today.

00:12:00.880 And I must say I'm gratified to see that while, you know, a few years ago I might have been seen

00:12:07.080 as an extreme element, conspiracy theoristic, you know, panicky commentator,

00:12:14.920 I think now my views are more or less in the mainstream,

00:12:17.820 particularly in the United States and Europe and increasingly in Canada.

00:12:21.740 So it's good to see that there are a lot more people singing from my song sheet

00:12:25.900 and I think articulating what I've thought for a long time better than I can myself.

00:12:32.360 How does Canada fit into China's global strategy?

00:12:36.540 You mentioned in a recent op-ed piece of yours that I read that Canada is China's chew toy, 0.88

00:12:42.280 I believe was your term.

00:12:43.460 What did you mean by that?

00:12:45.760 Well, I think that China does have domestic factors where the Chinese regime wants to convince people in China

00:12:58.460 that the autocratic one-party system under the charismatic, strong man, poor life, perhaps,

00:13:06.920 leadership of Xi Jinping is the best way for a country to be run.

00:13:11.020 And I think that, you know, saying negative things about Canada and Canadians in the Chinese media

00:13:19.080 is a means to try and emphasize this point, what they refer to as the confidence in the Chinese political system.

00:13:31.080 And the idea that China would assume global hegemony in their belief that the United States

00:13:39.480 is a power in terminal decline and the replacement of institutions of global governance like the UN

00:13:47.400 or of, you know, intended to ensure free and fair and reciprocal trade like the WTO

00:13:54.500 and replace them by Xi Jinping's doctrine of the community of the common destiny of mankind,

00:14:00.380 which is really a world-run, you know, subservient,

00:14:05.460 where all the nations of the world are subservient to China.

00:14:07.840 China and their Belt and Road International Economic Infrastructure Program of ports and rail

00:14:15.760 and, in fact, real roads extending between China and Eurasia and, you know, potentially North America.

00:14:23.120 They do, there have been some speculation they could run something over the Bering Strait and all the way down.

00:14:28.760 But, you know, this is really about a program where the belts and roads all terminate in China.

00:14:34.660 And so China would not only be the political center of the world, it would also be the economic center of the world.

00:14:42.320 And countries like Canada would provide the raw materials and political support for China's larger agenda,

00:14:51.900 which Mr. Xi hopes to realize by 2049 or 2050, the 100th anniversary of the establishment of the People's Republic of China in 1949.

00:15:01.860 I mean, the plan is audacious and, in my view, unlikely to be realized, but, you know, that is what informs China's policy.

00:15:12.420 And so in that context, you're not going to have, you know, equal relations between sovereign states.

00:15:19.600 The notion of state sovereignty is subordinated to this idea of China, what they refer to as rejuvenation.

00:15:30.220 In other words, a restoration of the traditional cosmology where the only legitimate authority in the world is the emperor, the son of heaven.

00:15:40.100 And that civilization extends in concentric circles from the Chinese capital.

00:15:47.940 And so, you know, other regimes are just not legitimate in the sense of having any ultimate authority,

00:15:55.180 but simply to administer barbarians who are out of the direct administration of the central authority.

00:16:02.400 That, you know, that was China's traditional view of itself.

00:16:06.800 Also, perhaps not able to be verified through sound historiography, but that's the way it was written.

00:16:13.600 And I think Xi Jinping sees himself as, you know, a new period emperor.

00:16:19.520 He's recently said that the Chinese Communist Party has broken the cycle of dynasties.

00:16:25.360 In other words, he's not expecting there to be any change in the political paradigm in China ever now.

00:16:33.600 There were 24 dynasties in history.

00:16:35.700 Arguably, his could be the 25th.

00:16:38.640 And that we should accept this reality and get used to it.

00:16:43.040 And Canada should understand its place in the world.

00:16:46.060 And, you know, the dynamic that you saw between Xi Jinping and our prime minister, Justin Trudeau,

00:16:53.060 where he was treated with a high degree of disdain and perceived as by Xi,

00:16:59.020 who muttered at the end of the interaction, naive,

00:17:02.600 is the way that China sees the world and the way that China wants Canada to be in relation to China.

00:17:08.720 So, you know, there are a lot of concerns there about China's intentions.

00:17:12.080 It's not that this will be realized, but that China is attempting to make this the future reality

00:17:19.620 and is suggesting its international programming and its interference in Canada's domestic politics accordingly.

00:17:27.780 What did you make of that exchange?

00:17:30.480 You know, obviously you talk about Xi's language and his apparent kind of contempt, perhaps, for Trudeau.

00:17:39.200 But what about Trudeau's reaction?

00:17:40.520 He certainly seemed to be not expecting it.

00:17:44.620 I think that Mr. Trudeau did not expect it.

00:17:47.040 And it wasn't scheduled.

00:17:48.560 And I'm not sure the degree to which it was planned, but it was recorded.

00:17:52.820 I mean, Mr. Xi seems to have seen Trudeau somewhere between sessions heading for a coffee or something

00:17:59.580 and come up to him for a few seconds and given him a thorough dressing down of, you know, a boss to a subordinate.

00:18:07.100 Using language which, you know, really has a certain kind of mafia thuggish to it, particularly aspect to it.

00:18:15.620 You know, particularly when he said, in effect, if you're not going to respect us and play according to our norms,

00:18:21.840 then I can't really say what might happen, which is the literal translation of, you know, what he said.

00:18:29.420 So it wasn't any kind of normal diplomatic language, but bore a resemblance to this wolf warrior diplomacy that we've seen by some Chinese ambassadors serving abroad,

00:18:41.840 particularly the ambassador before our current one, Lu Xiaoyer, who has continued with this kind of thing in France.

00:18:49.220 The French don't seem to take it quite as readily as the Canadians did.

00:18:54.000 And the foreign ministry.

00:18:55.460 But it's the first time that I've heard Xi Jinping be so utterly rude and, you know, direct in his suggestion that if Canada doesn't get in line with China,

00:19:09.700 woe betide us, because, you know, China will retaliate. 1.00

00:19:13.180 And I think that it does suggest that we'll be seeing some form of Chinese retaliation if the Indo-Pacific policy that, you know, is touted to come out in a few weeks,

00:19:25.440 it's been touted to come out in a few weeks, of course, for some time,

00:19:29.180 actually is a policy which attempts to address China's, you know, expansionist activities in the region

00:19:40.260 by us sending more military support to Australia, the UK and the US and the Indo-Pacific.

00:19:46.020 And if we, in fact, start to seriously constrain China's espionage activities in Canada,

00:19:53.200 illegal police operations designed to intimidate persons here in Canada

00:19:58.380 and start expelling Chinese diplomats who are responsible for these Chinese Communist Party United Front Work Department activities,

00:20:09.460 which is what this kind of interference in Canada's approach to China consists in.

00:20:17.320 If we do that, I think China will feel it has to retaliate because it not only wants to send a message of punishment to Canada,

00:20:25.640 but also wants to indicate to other lesser countries that if they're going to seriously challenge what China's doing,

00:20:32.700 that China will extract a cost.

00:20:34.440 And I think up to now, Canada has turned a blind eye to this kind of appalling behavior by the Chinese regime in our country 0.99

00:20:44.560 because there are, you know, important economic players who want Canada to maintain its market access

00:20:54.720 and preferential treatment by the Chinese regime.

00:20:59.520 And if Canada cracks down on non-economic activities by the regime preparing for this community of the common destiny of mankind,

00:21:08.400 that we could be punished economically.

00:21:11.440 So, you know, that seems to be the dynamic that's existed up until recently.

00:21:17.820 But I think now that the Americans are more or less on our case,

00:21:21.320 you know, Secretary Blinken was in Canada in October.

00:21:26.120 And after that, Canada agreed to engage in a strategic dialogue on Indo-Pacific policy with the United States

00:21:32.480 and requested that we be admitted to the Indo-Pacific Economic Framework for Prosperity program,

00:21:40.200 which the United States had invited 14 countries to and had fairly markedly excluded Canada from.

00:21:46.740 So I think that, you know, our policy is changing because of increasing awareness of the dangers of Chinese malign activities in Canada, 1.00

00:21:56.080 but also because it could impact on our alliance with the United States,

00:22:01.520 particularly the continued viability of Canada's membership in the Five Eyes Intelligence Sharing Consortium,

00:22:08.740 which is very important to Canada, not just with regard to countries like China, Russia and Iran,

00:22:14.840 but also the border and the Arctic.

00:22:17.460 So, you know, it's the whole Xi-Trudeau interaction in Bali, I think, is a kind of signal event

00:22:26.180 that suggests that Canada better get its act together on China pretty soon,

00:22:32.020 or we'll be very sorry as the balance tips away from the United States and towards China by default.

00:22:39.740 We'll be back with more full comment in a moment.

00:22:43.300 Tell us more about the police stations.

00:22:45.200 I mean, I think those are a particularly egregious institution,

00:22:49.740 and maybe a little bit about the benign justification that China has given to them that perhaps you don't accept.

00:22:56.800 Well, I think that, you know, the Chinese say, oh, yes, we have police stations in Canada.

00:23:04.580 That's a perfectly normal thing.

00:23:07.080 And it's because there are so many Chinese in Canada that have been unable to return to China

00:23:13.160 because of the COVID restrictions and need to renew their driver's licenses.

00:23:17.980 And apparently these things are supposed to provide driver's license renewal.

00:23:21.920 I must say, following the Canadian Chinese press and media and so on,

00:23:28.020 I've never heard of any advertisement saying if you need your driver's license renewed,

00:23:34.000 Chinese driver's license renewed, here's the address you can go to and get a new one.

00:23:39.880 But, you know, for a long time, China has been sending their police into Canada on false pretenses

00:23:48.860 with a view to pressuring persons in Canada to render themselves back to China to face some charges.

00:24:00.140 And, you know, this is based on the reality that there is no extradition treaty between Canada and China

00:24:09.100 for very good reasons.

00:24:11.080 China does not follow due process of law. 0.75

00:24:13.620 China does not follow the internationally recognized rules of evidence.

00:24:19.760 China engages in pervasive use of torture and interrogation.

00:24:25.960 And China applies the death penalty to a wide range of offenses.

00:24:30.980 So we have no extradition treaty.

00:24:32.180 So we do know that, you know, in the past, particularly in one refugee hearing that I was involved in as a witness,

00:24:42.200 that the Chinese police admitted that it was true as the head of the immigration section

00:24:49.100 in the Canadian embassy in Beijing, Susan Gregson, testified at the time

00:24:53.140 that they had got a fake invitation from a Canadian firm to invite people into Canada for a purpose of trade negotiations.

00:25:08.360 And, you know, the names that were provided to our immigration authorities were the names of police officers

00:25:16.120 and the brother of the refugee claimant, Lai Shuiqiang.

00:25:21.780 The refugee claimant was Lai Changqing, a major smuggler.

00:25:27.080 You know, they came to Vancouver, spent several days with Mr. Lai,

00:25:31.920 trying to convince him to render himself back to China.

00:25:35.320 Mr. Lai refused and applied for refugee status the next day.

00:25:39.900 And these police then returned to China and subsequently Mr. Lai's brother,

00:25:46.160 who had come to Vancouver with the police, died in prison under mysterious circumstances.

00:25:51.700 So, you know, we know this goes on.

00:25:53.480 And there's even a TV series in China on this fox hunt operation,

00:25:58.100 which is ostensibly to induce Chinese officials who have come to Canada

00:26:06.360 with massive assets of dubious provenance escaping factional struggle or criminal investigations in China

00:26:16.140 to get them to come back to China and to repatriate those assets.

00:26:21.100 So, you know, it's not as if the Chinese are making a secret of this

00:26:24.960 because they, you know, they describe it in a TV drama with, I don't know, about 70 episodes.

00:26:31.320 So, you know, it's really about hiding in plain sight.

00:26:36.400 And I think that surely our authorities have been aware of these police operations

00:26:42.180 and have not seen fit to constrain them.

00:26:47.740 And now we hear that China's setting up these, I think, 55 or so around the world,

00:26:54.140 permanent installations to convenience this operation

00:26:57.480 as opposed to, you know, them coming in ad hoc, case after case.

00:27:01.380 So, you know, it seems outrageous that Canada would not close those things down,

00:27:08.500 bring to court anybody who is behaving illegally

00:27:14.100 or who is in Canada on false visa claims,

00:27:19.120 and that we should declare persona non grata

00:27:22.120 those Chinese diplomats in the Chinese embassy and consulates in Vancouver, Calgary, Montreal,

00:27:30.980 who are coordinating this activity.

00:27:33.000 I mean, there are a lot more Chinese diplomats

00:27:35.120 accredited to Canada than the diplomatic cohort of any other nation,

00:27:40.700 including the United States.

00:27:42.480 So, you know, they do seem to have a lot of people here,

00:27:45.160 and I think we should be wondering

00:27:46.640 exactly why they need so many people in our country.

00:27:49.800 You know, presumably Chinese diplomats are not functioning less efficiently

00:27:54.480 than those of other nations,

00:27:55.700 so one could draw the likely assumption

00:27:59.000 that they are engaged in activities

00:28:00.580 which are not compatible with their diplomatic status,

00:28:03.480 and their diplomatic status should therefore be revoked.

00:28:06.580 On the election meddling, what is the, you know, strategic aim?

00:28:12.520 Is it to just keep, you know, criticism of China at bay from Canadian politics,

00:28:18.020 or is it deeper than that?

00:28:19.320 Is it to try to, in some way, guide Canada's attitude toward China

00:28:25.740 or its government policy?

00:28:28.720 Well, this has been a long-time policy of the United Front Work Department.

00:28:33.500 Again, you know, not hidden.

00:28:35.800 I mean, you can read the documents about this,

00:28:38.740 and they want more persons of ethnic Chinese origin

00:28:42.200 to be involved in becoming elected to democratic legislatures,

00:28:48.080 and, you know, they want to influence politicians

00:28:53.620 through various inducements.

00:28:56.180 Now, of course, you know, there are two issues here.

00:28:59.800 One is that naturally we want our parliaments

00:29:04.040 and provincial legislatures and municipal governments

00:29:07.480 to reflect the diversity of Canada,

00:29:10.680 and so it's highly desirable that we have more people of Chinese origin

00:29:14.380 in positions of political authority in our country.

00:29:17.440 You know, that goes without saying.

00:29:19.800 But the difficulty is that there are some politicians in Canada,

00:29:25.860 some of them of Chinese ethnic origin, some of them not,

00:29:29.260 who seem to consistently articulate the positions

00:29:33.180 of the government of China

00:29:36.120 and who we suspect may be the recipients

00:29:40.260 of benefits from the Chinese state.

00:29:43.880 So what we would like would be

00:29:47.520 for there to be a Foreign Influence Transparency Scheme Act

00:29:51.920 comparable to that of the Australian legislation of 2018

00:29:55.600 that requires people who are in the political process

00:30:00.180 and the policy process, if they are recipients of benefits

00:30:04.680 from a foreign state, directly or indirectly,

00:30:07.300 that they should be required to declare it

00:30:10.220 so that any conflict of interest that they may have

00:30:13.200 could be assessed by, you know, by Canadian people

00:30:17.280 who might vote or might not vote for them.

00:30:20.640 And this has been very much opposed by certain politicians

00:30:25.300 as, you know, in all sorts of grounds,

00:30:27.660 such as, you know, what's going on in Australia

00:30:30.460 couldn't possibly be happening here in Canada

00:30:32.580 or it would violate the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms

00:30:36.380 or that our police and security agencies

00:30:41.540 are already fully in command of the situation.

00:30:44.560 So the more people complain

00:30:45.880 about how we shouldn't have this kind of act,

00:30:48.140 the more concerned I get that maybe we really do need it.

00:30:51.620 And certainly it's very hard for us currently to track this

00:30:58.340 once someone retires from public service.

00:31:01.920 If they become appointed to a China-related law firm

00:31:06.500 or a board of a Chinese company,

00:31:09.540 you know, there's no reason why that isn't

00:31:13.060 a perfectly legitimate thing to do.

00:31:15.640 You know, there's no laws being broken.

00:31:17.760 It simply gives me a sense of unease

00:31:21.560 as to whether this could be a reward

00:31:23.620 for how they handled their advice to government

00:31:28.220 while on the taxpayer's dime in positions of trust.

00:31:33.300 So I'm very much supportive of legislation

00:31:35.940 that would require transparency

00:31:37.920 among people who receive foreign benefits.

00:31:41.420 And, you know, once we've got that,

00:31:42.920 I think it might dampen the willingness

00:31:45.040 of Canadian politicians and senior civil servants

00:31:49.020 to receive those benefits.

00:31:50.920 And certainly that's what's happened in Australia.

00:31:53.440 You know, the legislation may not be very well drafted.

00:31:56.680 The Australian government may not have allocated

00:31:58.760 sufficient resources to enforce it.

00:32:01.780 But the simple existence of this kind of legislation

00:32:04.460 does seem to have led to a number of former politicians

00:32:08.480 and civil servants resigning from China-related positions

00:32:12.680 and is probably causing people

00:32:16.180 who might want to benefit from, you know,

00:32:19.540 what my friend at the Royal United Services Institute

00:32:22.520 in London, Charlie Parton,

00:32:24.040 refers to as life-transforming amounts of money.

00:32:27.700 So, you know, it's...

00:32:29.000 I hope that this will be something that we'll see

00:32:31.800 on the Canadian legislative agenda very soon.

00:32:34.940 I've certainly been, you know,

00:32:36.560 trying to bring this up over and over again

00:32:40.120 in various public comments and editorials.

00:32:44.900 And I think the idea does have some traction.

00:32:47.960 And we have seen some legislation introduced,

00:32:52.180 private members in Commons and the Senate,

00:32:55.580 which China is taking enormous exception to.

00:32:58.380 You mentioned Australia a couple of times.

00:32:59.980 Do you think that Australia serves

00:33:01.540 as a kind of cautionary tale for Canada

00:33:03.660 in terms of relations with China?

00:33:05.780 Well, I think that, you know,

00:33:10.340 Australia is certainly paying a much greater cost

00:33:13.300 than Canada would pay for its policy on China

00:33:18.980 designed to protect Australian security and sovereignty.

00:33:23.100 I mean, you know,

00:33:23.860 our external commodity trade to China

00:33:27.200 amounts to only about 4% of what we sell abroad.

00:33:32.060 And it's mostly agricultural commodities and minerals

00:33:36.180 that for which there is a global market.

00:33:38.900 So if China engages in economic coercion against us

00:33:42.380 and refuses to take our soybeans,

00:33:45.120 they're going to be buying more from Brazil.

00:33:47.060 And, you know,

00:33:48.180 then that'll open up market space for us.

00:33:50.040 So obviously,

00:33:51.840 we don't want to be

00:33:53.660 too dependent on the Chinese market for anything.

00:33:57.220 And we always want to diversify our trading partners.

00:34:00.480 But, you know,

00:34:01.000 it's not as disastrous for us

00:34:02.600 as it might be for Australia

00:34:04.300 that's sending more like a third

00:34:05.900 of their external commodities trade to China,

00:34:08.860 particularly things like wine and coal, iron ore.

00:34:13.000 So I think, you know,

00:34:15.800 some investigations were done in Australia.

00:34:18.380 There was quite a famous report

00:34:21.760 in the Australian News

00:34:24.880 where the Australian former Minister

00:34:27.440 of International Trade, Andrew Robb,

00:34:30.060 who had negotiated the free trade agreement

00:34:32.080 between Australia and China that,

00:34:35.420 you know,

00:34:35.660 an agreement that China wanted Canada

00:34:37.340 to more or less cut and paste at the time,

00:34:39.740 but which our authorities in the civil service said

00:34:43.320 just wasn't,

00:34:44.960 was just too much in favor of the Chinese side

00:34:47.780 and we wouldn't want that.

00:34:49.560 Anyway,

00:34:49.920 Andrew Robb was involved

00:34:51.760 in negotiating that trade agreement.

00:34:53.320 He was involved in the 99-year lease

00:34:56.240 on the port of Darwin

00:34:57.400 to a Chinese billionaire,

00:34:59.680 Huang Xiangmo,

00:35:00.760 and an agreement between Darwin

00:35:02.620 and the Chinese port of Ruzhao

00:35:05.060 for a sort of sister port arrangement.

00:35:08.080 Subsequently,

00:35:08.780 it was discovered

00:35:09.460 that this Chinese billionaire,

00:35:11.240 Huang Xiangmo,

00:35:12.600 had,

00:35:13.600 was giving Mr. Robb

00:35:15.240 an $880,000 a year

00:35:17.580 private consultancy.

00:35:19.520 So there again,

00:35:21.760 nothing illegal in that.

00:35:24.120 Mr. Robb,

00:35:25.200 anyone who's receiving $880,000 a year

00:35:27.880 for a part-time job

00:35:28.880 is obviously a very good consultant.

00:35:31.440 It's certainly

00:35:31.960 a thousand times,

00:35:34.700 I think,

00:35:34.980 more than my fees

00:35:36.020 for consulting on China.

00:35:37.240 And I think

00:35:39.320 that this then

00:35:40.120 was what led

00:35:41.100 to discussion

00:35:43.040 of this issue

00:35:45.660 of benefits

00:35:47.880 from the Chinese state

00:35:48.860 going to persons

00:35:50.740 in Australia.

00:35:52.400 And, of course,

00:35:53.280 Australia

00:35:53.660 was also involved

00:35:55.680 in the

00:35:56.260 Australia-UK-US 0.87

00:35:58.820 Indo-Pacific

00:36:00.120 Security

00:36:00.880 Consortium

00:36:02.680 and has been

00:36:04.440 much more active

00:36:05.800 in challenging China.

00:36:07.220 You know,

00:36:07.400 one of the things

00:36:08.020 that China's been 0.57

00:36:08.720 complaining about

00:36:09.500 with Australia

00:36:10.260 has been

00:36:11.540 Australia's demand

00:36:14.720 that China 0.93

00:36:15.260 should allow

00:36:15.840 an impartial

00:36:16.900 international investigation

00:36:18.680 of the sources

00:36:19.920 of the COVID-19 virus.

00:36:22.740 So, you know,

00:36:23.680 China takes 0.96

00:36:24.300 enormous exception

00:36:25.380 to that,

00:36:26.940 which in itself

00:36:28.040 I think is rather

00:36:28.920 suspicious,

00:36:30.060 isn't that?

00:36:30.580 The Shakespearean

00:36:31.380 me thinks he complains

00:36:32.560 too much.

00:36:34.540 And, you know,

00:36:36.580 China made, 0.97

00:36:37.520 I think it was

00:36:38.140 18 demands

00:36:39.140 of Australia

00:36:39.860 for areas of policy

00:36:41.620 that China wanted 0.82

00:36:42.500 to see changed

00:36:43.500 or the same sort

00:36:45.020 of thing as we saw

00:36:45.840 in Bali

00:36:46.300 or else

00:36:47.080 Australia has resisted.

00:36:50.200 And then you'll

00:36:50.720 notice that in Bali

00:36:52.040 the Australian

00:36:52.800 Prime Minister

00:36:53.540 got a proper

00:36:54.620 bilateral meeting

00:36:56.540 with Xi Jinping

00:36:57.200 at which he was

00:36:58.780 quite conciliatory

00:37:00.220 towards Mr.

00:37:01.280 Albanese

00:37:01.760 unlike Canada

00:37:03.340 which is not.

00:37:04.400 So, it seems

00:37:05.560 that countries

00:37:06.420 that, you know,

00:37:07.540 show a bit of grit

00:37:08.560 and don't allow

00:37:10.340 themselves to be

00:37:11.360 cowed or appease

00:37:12.660 China

00:37:13.100 seem to gain

00:37:14.220 more respect

00:37:14.920 and I think

00:37:15.800 relations with China

00:37:16.860 go better.

00:37:18.120 And so, I do think

00:37:19.160 that there is a lot

00:37:20.060 for us to look at

00:37:21.380 with Australia,

00:37:22.860 you know,

00:37:23.160 a comparable country

00:37:24.340 with comparable values

00:37:25.660 with comparable

00:37:27.580 political and economic

00:37:28.760 systems that is

00:37:30.400 managing the China

00:37:31.420 relationship much

00:37:32.680 more effectively

00:37:33.460 than Canada is.

00:37:34.980 So, you know,

00:37:35.880 I think that,

00:37:36.920 you know,

00:37:38.560 Canada does need

00:37:39.420 more Australia

00:37:40.180 in its China policy

00:37:41.740 and I think Australia

00:37:42.660 is quite prepared

00:37:43.580 to assist us

00:37:44.460 in trying to get

00:37:46.060 our laws and practices

00:37:48.060 into effect

00:37:48.900 because, you know,

00:37:50.320 the more countries

00:37:51.080 that are allied

00:37:52.160 in a common

00:37:53.300 approach to China,

00:37:54.280 the more leverage

00:37:56.060 we'll have

00:37:56.720 to counter China's 0.99

00:37:57.940 expansionist

00:37:58.940 and other malign

00:38:00.360 activities in those

00:38:01.340 countries.

00:38:01.960 Is there an inherent

00:38:03.000 risk in deepening

00:38:05.000 our economic ties

00:38:06.040 with China?

00:38:06.560 I know that there's

00:38:07.400 the idea of this

00:38:08.200 distinction that we

00:38:09.160 want to shore up

00:38:09.980 our diplomatic

00:38:11.840 interests,

00:38:13.240 our security interests,

00:38:14.440 but also,

00:38:15.480 you know,

00:38:16.540 deepen our market

00:38:17.420 access in China.

00:38:18.540 But is it not true

00:38:19.760 that if we're

00:38:20.580 more economically

00:38:21.860 dependent on China,

00:38:22.900 then we are

00:38:23.640 more dependent

00:38:24.380 on China?

00:38:26.280 Yeah, I mean,

00:38:27.160 China functions

00:38:27.940 as an integrated

00:38:29.320 party, state,

00:38:31.560 military,

00:38:32.520 business complex.

00:38:34.980 So, you know,

00:38:36.200 China always does 1.00

00:38:37.580 things for a reason.

00:38:38.760 So when you see

00:38:39.620 China providing

00:38:41.460 enormous investment

00:38:43.340 in some third world

00:38:46.280 ports along

00:38:47.520 the Belt and Road

00:38:49.360 Initiative,

00:38:50.340 then you cannot

00:38:51.180 help but think

00:38:52.060 that, you know,

00:38:53.620 that's not just

00:38:54.360 about improving

00:38:56.180 port facilities

00:38:57.080 to get Chinese 0.95

00:38:58.100 natural,

00:38:58.840 to get third

00:39:00.420 country natural

00:39:02.700 resources to China

00:39:04.140 to feed China's 0.64

00:39:05.120 growth,

00:39:05.920 but that over time

00:39:07.340 China will likely 0.99

00:39:08.920 ask that,

00:39:09.840 you know,

00:39:11.020 maybe Chinese

00:39:12.100 submarines could 0.71

00:39:13.540 come into those

00:39:15.160 ports or that

00:39:16.080 perhaps China

00:39:17.180 could establish

00:39:17.940 a military base

00:39:19.060 next to those

00:39:20.380 ports.

00:39:20.780 and a lot

00:39:21.680 of the Chinese

00:39:22.180 funding for

00:39:22.840 these things

00:39:23.500 has been

00:39:25.020 generous,

00:39:26.980 not based on

00:39:28.400 sound principles

00:39:30.360 of economics,

00:39:31.380 but often

00:39:32.500 showing a

00:39:35.000 tolerance for

00:39:35.920 corruption by

00:39:37.620 the third world

00:39:38.580 country leaders

00:39:39.260 that then leads

00:39:40.040 to that country

00:39:41.420 getting into debt,

00:39:42.740 which then further

00:39:43.520 increases China's 0.70

00:39:44.660 leverage over them

00:39:45.520 and has led

00:39:46.780 in some cases

00:39:47.720 to China taking

00:39:48.640 on long

00:39:50.160 leases,

00:39:50.660 typically 99-year

00:39:51.680 leases on

00:39:53.860 these port

00:39:55.000 facilities,

00:39:55.960 which then,

00:39:56.860 you know,

00:39:57.520 really would

00:39:58.080 provide China

00:39:58.880 with a

00:39:59.280 geostrategic

00:40:00.180 possibility.

00:40:01.600 So, you know,

00:40:02.640 the more we

00:40:03.400 become dependent

00:40:04.520 on our trade

00:40:05.760 with China,

00:40:06.320 the more leverage

00:40:07.080 China has to 0.83

00:40:08.280 insist that we

00:40:09.660 comply with

00:40:10.360 China's demands 0.78

00:40:11.180 that could be

00:40:11.860 damaging to our

00:40:13.420 geopolitics.

00:40:14.620 We've seen

00:40:15.500 that with

00:40:16.500 the Chinese

00:40:17.400 ambassador

00:40:18.040 being very

00:40:20.620 dismissive of

00:40:21.680 Canada's

00:40:22.400 foreign investment

00:40:23.320 review process,

00:40:24.540 suggesting that

00:40:26.260 Canada really

00:40:27.240 should allow,

00:40:28.180 say, the

00:40:29.340 Huawei 5G

00:40:31.020 hardware and

00:40:32.580 software into

00:40:33.700 our Canadian

00:40:34.600 telecommunications

00:40:35.660 and that we

00:40:36.360 shouldn't be

00:40:37.460 restricting

00:40:38.400 China's acquisition

00:40:39.780 of Canadian

00:40:41.040 firms that

00:40:41.880 have technologies

00:40:44.980 that have a

00:40:45.600 dual-use

00:40:46.260 military-civil

00:40:48.800 application and

00:40:50.980 that we should

00:40:51.480 be allowing

00:40:52.000 China complete 0.90

00:40:53.680 and free access

00:40:54.440 to investment

00:40:56.000 in Canadian

00:40:57.340 infrastructure and

00:40:58.640 mines and,

00:41:00.680 you know,

00:41:01.000 the ACON

00:41:01.520 construction,

00:41:02.860 which came

00:41:04.240 close to being

00:41:04.880 acquired by a

00:41:05.720 Chinese state

00:41:06.300 firm, which

00:41:07.740 would have

00:41:08.200 given, you

00:41:08.880 know, China a

00:41:09.480 lot of advantages

00:41:10.200 in terms of

00:41:11.360 knowledge of

00:41:11.860 our infrastructure

00:41:12.600 and ability to

00:41:15.020 have information

00:41:16.080 that could be

00:41:16.780 very critically

00:41:17.840 useful to

00:41:18.440 China if

00:41:19.440 there is a

00:41:20.180 conflict between

00:41:21.560 China and the 0.91

00:41:22.260 West in years

00:41:23.120 ahead, possibly

00:41:24.240 over Taiwan or

00:41:25.180 something else.

00:41:25.940 So, you know,

00:41:26.860 the more that

00:41:27.520 we allow China 0.99

00:41:29.800 to invest in

00:41:30.440 Canada, the

00:41:30.980 more we become

00:41:31.740 dependent on

00:41:32.520 China, the 0.95

00:41:33.480 more possibilities

00:41:34.320 there are for

00:41:35.180 China to, in

00:41:36.520 the context of

00:41:37.380 its increasing

00:41:38.260 comprehensive rise

00:41:39.500 to power, to

00:41:40.840 coerce us in

00:41:42.920 ways which would

00:41:44.180 be damaging to

00:41:45.120 our sovereignty,

00:41:46.620 security, and

00:41:47.380 alliance with our

00:41:48.740 partners.

00:41:49.360 So, you know,

00:41:50.260 obviously it's a

00:41:51.080 very good idea

00:41:51.840 for us to try

00:41:52.900 and seek markets

00:41:54.140 elsewhere to

00:41:55.660 diversify our

00:41:56.620 risk and to

00:41:59.300 ensure that we

00:42:00.920 don't see

00:42:01.440 ourselves drawn

00:42:02.340 into a

00:42:02.960 situation that

00:42:04.500 would be very

00:42:05.580 economically

00:42:06.440 damaging for

00:42:07.340 Canada to get 0.89

00:42:08.080 out of.

00:42:08.520 How much of

00:42:09.360 our struggle

00:42:09.900 is simply a

00:42:11.660 matter of

00:42:11.980 cultural difference?

00:42:12.860 I mean, Canada

00:42:13.280 is a very young

00:42:14.000 country compared

00:42:15.300 to China, which

00:42:16.660 is a millennia

00:42:17.720 old society.

00:42:20.060 You know, are

00:42:20.920 they playing at a

00:42:21.720 much longer and

00:42:23.000 larger game than

00:42:24.000 we're even able to

00:42:25.500 comprehend?

00:42:26.100 And is that part of

00:42:26.800 the reason why we

00:42:28.500 perhaps are naive

00:42:29.740 about what can be

00:42:30.580 accomplished vis-a-vis

00:42:31.640 China? 0.73

00:42:33.800 Yeah, I think so.

00:42:35.300 You know, I mean,

00:42:36.000 certainly the sense

00:42:37.820 of history is

00:42:38.660 there.

00:42:39.060 I think Mr.

00:42:39.720 Xi sees himself

00:42:41.460 not just as, you

00:42:42.760 know, a possible

00:42:43.560 acolyte of

00:42:46.520 Stalin, but as

00:42:48.500 someone following

00:42:49.820 the path of the

00:42:51.240 first emperor of

00:42:52.060 the Qin in 0.91

00:42:52.740 221 BC.

00:42:55.120 You know, so I

00:42:56.780 think that there

00:42:57.320 is this sense of

00:42:58.680 China's historical

00:43:00.140 destiny and

00:43:01.060 seeing the, you

00:43:03.700 know, the

00:43:04.060 relative decline of

00:43:05.200 China in global 0.72

00:43:06.440 power as being a

00:43:07.600 blip in the longer

00:43:09.180 sense of history.

00:43:10.320 I do remember

00:43:11.920 when I was a

00:43:13.680 student in China

00:43:14.420 going to stay

00:43:15.800 with the family

00:43:17.540 of one of my

00:43:18.340 roommates in a

00:43:20.120 rural area of

00:43:20.860 China in Shandong

00:43:21.760 and, you know,

00:43:22.800 I was a sort of

00:43:23.860 conversation piece.

00:43:25.100 I said, gee, I

00:43:25.820 don't, I guess you

00:43:26.780 don't get too many

00:43:27.660 foreigners in these 0.95

00:43:28.700 parts.

00:43:30.020 And they said, no,

00:43:31.100 that's not the case

00:43:31.960 and made reference to

00:43:33.060 the Mongol hordes 0.99

00:43:34.540 out under

00:43:35.540 Genghis Khan, who

00:43:36.900 had passed through

00:43:37.560 the village in the

00:43:38.960 14th century.

00:43:40.060 So, you know, they

00:43:41.020 do have a sense of

00:43:42.400 history.

00:43:43.300 But I think, in

00:43:44.260 general, we don't

00:43:45.260 appreciate that, you

00:43:46.680 know, the

00:43:46.920 institutions are not

00:43:48.040 compatible.

00:43:49.440 Canadian universities,

00:43:50.780 you know, who have a

00:43:51.780 mandate for the

00:43:53.120 creation and

00:43:55.400 dissemination of

00:43:56.340 knowledge are

00:43:57.700 cooperating with

00:43:58.720 Chinese universities,

00:44:00.380 assuming that

00:44:01.280 Chinese universities

00:44:02.200 are similarly based

00:44:03.480 on the principle

00:44:04.800 of the neutral

00:44:06.080 advance of

00:44:06.840 knowledge and

00:44:07.460 science, whereas

00:44:08.700 Chinese universities

00:44:09.520 are all functions

00:44:10.520 of the Chinese

00:44:11.300 state.

00:44:12.240 The professors are

00:44:13.100 all civil servants

00:44:15.060 and subject to

00:44:16.400 direction by the

00:44:17.760 Chinese Communist 0.72

00:44:18.420 Party.

00:44:19.540 And when Chinese 0.88

00:44:20.240 scholars collaborate

00:44:21.480 with Canadian

00:44:22.280 scholars, it's

00:44:23.100 often in areas of

00:44:24.800 dual-use military

00:44:25.800 technologies where

00:44:27.440 they are attempting

00:44:29.200 attempting to obtain

00:44:30.640 technologies of use

00:44:32.280 to the Chinese

00:44:33.180 Communist Party's

00:44:34.500 People's Liberation

00:44:35.660 Army, and that 0.91

00:44:37.140 our universities are

00:44:38.380 happy to see our

00:44:40.860 intellectual property

00:44:41.880 be transferred to

00:44:43.140 China because the 0.99

00:44:43.920 universities are

00:44:44.580 interested simply in

00:44:45.680 pushing forward the

00:44:46.900 bounds of science.

00:44:48.040 They're not so

00:44:48.780 interested in what

00:44:49.440 happens with the

00:44:50.380 technology.

00:44:51.140 So, you know, it's

00:44:52.340 these kind of, I

00:44:53.080 guess, similar to

00:44:53.880 false cognates in

00:44:55.160 language where we

00:44:56.540 assume that Chinese

00:44:57.680 institutions are

00:44:58.840 comparable to our

00:44:59.860 own, and they

00:45:00.440 aren't.

00:45:01.260 You know, the

00:45:02.300 Canadian Parliamentary

00:45:04.180 Exchange with the

00:45:05.540 National People's

00:45:06.420 Congress, I mean,

00:45:07.320 the National People's

00:45:08.120 Congress is simply

00:45:09.820 a rubber-stamp

00:45:11.300 legislature subject

00:45:12.620 to the authority of

00:45:13.580 the Chinese Communist

00:45:14.320 Party.

00:45:15.320 The members of the

00:45:16.100 National People's

00:45:16.880 Congress have no

00:45:17.960 constituency

00:45:18.500 responsibilities because

00:45:20.460 they are not

00:45:21.240 elected but, you

00:45:22.620 know, assigned by

00:45:23.480 the organization

00:45:24.300 department of the

00:45:25.760 Chinese Communist 0.72

00:45:26.320 Party through

00:45:26.960 various processes.

00:45:28.540 So, the idea that

00:45:29.960 we could have an

00:45:31.540 exchange between our

00:45:32.860 democratic

00:45:33.340 parliamentarians and

00:45:34.620 China's parliament 0.73

00:45:35.380 is absurd.

00:45:36.660 It simply provides

00:45:37.840 legitimacy and

00:45:39.400 false understanding

00:45:41.840 of China's civil

00:45:43.500 political institutions

00:45:44.720 which allows them to

00:45:47.240 deceive Canada about

00:45:49.000 China's overall

00:45:50.220 intentions.

00:45:51.080 And, you know, I

00:45:51.740 think we have to be

00:45:52.600 more aware of this,

00:45:54.180 but right now, you

00:45:55.340 know, Canadians are in 0.96

00:45:56.940 general and naive and 0.98

00:45:58.180 perhaps greedy people

00:45:59.820 who are not

00:46:01.700 prepared to face the

00:46:03.040 reality that our

00:46:04.680 engagement with China

00:46:05.700 is not as China 0.65

00:46:06.960 depicts it to us.

00:46:08.880 Dr. Burton, I feel

00:46:09.460 like we could have

00:46:10.120 gone on for probably

00:46:11.440 another whole 45

00:46:12.660 minutes, but

00:46:13.220 unfortunately we're

00:46:13.900 out of time.

00:46:14.960 We thank you a lot

00:46:16.020 for your insights

00:46:16.780 today and for joining

00:46:18.480 us and our listeners.

00:46:20.640 It's very good to

00:46:21.680 speak with you.

00:46:22.680 Full Comment is a

00:46:23.500 post-media podcast.

00:46:24.460 I'm guest host

00:46:25.780 Jackson Dohert.

00:46:26.840 This episode was

00:46:27.620 produced by Henri

00:46:28.520 Pou with theme

00:46:29.880 music by Bryce

00:46:30.940 Hall.

00:46:31.920 Kevin Libin is the

00:46:32.820 executive producer.

00:46:34.280 You can subscribe to

00:46:35.180 Full Comment on Apple

00:46:36.100 Podcasts, Google,

00:46:37.600 Spotify, and Amazon

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00:46:48.960 Thanks for listening.

00:46:54.460 Thank you.

Full Comment - November 28, 2022

The truth in Xi's 'very naive' insult to Trudeau

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