The underqualified, anti-racist activist doctor will see you now
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Summary
Dr. Mark D'Souza is a family physician in Toronto and an assistant professor at Queen's University Medical School. In this episode, he talks about the proposed changes to the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada, a group of activists who want to change the way that doctors are trained in Canada.
Transcript
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When you go to see a doctor, are you looking for someone who is a medical expert or someone who is
00:01:14.800
an anti-oppression and anti-racism advocate? Hello and welcome to the Full Comment Podcast. My name's
00:01:20.880
Brian Lilly. Today we're going to look at changes that are being proposed to CanMeds, an offshoot of
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the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons. There are calls to change the way that doctors
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are trained in this country. Quoting from a document that was published last December when I first wrote
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about this, it says that a new model of CanMeds would seek to center values such as anti-oppression,
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anti-racism, and social justice rather than medical expertise, end quote. I don't know about you,
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but that's very concerning to me. It's also concerning to a number of doctors who are pushing
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back, including our guest today. Dr. Mark D'Souza is a family physician in Toronto. He also has an
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affiliation with Queen's University Medical School, where he is an assistant professor, and he joins me
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now from his practice. Dr. D'Souza, thanks so much. Good morning, Brian. It's great to be here.
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So, this woke takeover of medicine, as a recent piece in National Post described it, how did this
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come about, and is this something that we should be concerned about? Because when I wrote about this
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last December and quoted from the CanMeds proposal, the Royal College replied that it was fake news,
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that it was misinformation out there, that they wanted to replace medical expertise with anti-oppression
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and anti-racism. And yet, as you just heard, I quoted from them. So, you're part of this
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organization. You're a practicing doctor. What's going on, and why are you concerned?
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So, first, just a brief overview of what the CanMeds framework is. This is the ideals of what it
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means to be a Canadian physician. And this has been around since 1996, surviving or changing very
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slightly over two iterations. And the CanMeds framework consists of seven words, such as
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communicator, leader, medical expert, traditionally most of all, and scholar. And then each of these
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words is actually followed by one to two paragraphs of an explanation. So, what's happened is, now that
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they're up for renewal every 10 years, so it was scheduled for 2025, a group of activist doctors who run
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the academic institutions, such as the Royal College, they want to radically transform it into,
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and they basically said the quiet part out loud, which is they want to, as you quoted, this is
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quoting directly from them, to de-center medical expertise. And, you know, if you read the rest of
00:03:45.680
the supporting documents, it basically inserts all the social justice jargon in it. And those one to two
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paragraphs that follow each of these seven ideals, they've all been replaced with the words that you
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were talking about, including critical race theory, anti-oppression, decolonization, and
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acknowledging, of course, they have to do this, white supremacy.
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What does medicine have to do with any of that? Is medicine now racist? Is medicine now
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white supremacist? I mean, I've seen academics use this and claim that math is rooted in white
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supremacy. Utter nonsense and ridiculous, but this has spread everywhere. I mean, how did they arrive
00:04:32.880
Well, it looks like it's copy-pasted over from all the different other woke takeovers of different
00:04:38.060
institutions. So, yeah, I don't think it has any place in medicine, but I think they just have,
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it's, it's a spirit of wokeness, the spirit of ideological capture by the left of different
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institutions that just, everything is, everything is racist and it displaces the actual medical
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practice. So, yes, one thing specific, they, they do explicitly say we have to acknowledge
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that Western medicine is founded on racism. All of us acknowledge that.
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Western medicine has drawn from advances from around the world. It's as ridiculous as saying
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math is centered in Western colonialism and white supremacy. I mean, you look at how math was
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developed, much like medicine. Oh, you know, the Arabic scholars came up with this. Oh, scholars in
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India came up with inventing the zero. You, you incorporate that and you build on it. And medicine
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has done the same thing, claiming that it's, it's centered in, in Western white supremacy is beyond
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ridiculous. But I worry about what this means for medical training. Is that part of your concern?
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Absolutely. It's not just the ideals for medical trainees, because everyone will be indoctrinated
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in this, this, the progressive agenda, but it's also the ideals of what it means to practice medicine
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in Canada. So we'll have to also bend the knee, so to speak to this ideology.
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Now, do you need to be a member of the Royal College to practice? So, you know, future doctors,
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as you say, will go through this. You say, you'll, you'll have to bend the knee. I was talking with
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one physician who is quite outraged by this. He's not, he told me, he said, I'm, I'm not involved.
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I'm the only one. Yeah. Not involved with the fight, but
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the outrage by this and said, if they force this, I will just surrender my membership in the Royal
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College. Do you need to be a member of the Royal College to practice? I actually think you need to
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be a member of one of two organizations. So if you were a GP trained like myself, you have to be a
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member of the College of Family Physicians. If you are a specialist trained, like the doctor you were
00:07:06.660
referring to, you have to be a member of the Royal College. Now they're all working together on this.
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It's just the Royal College happens to be the body taking the lead on this.
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One of the, uh, the doctors that is, uh, pushing this is, uh, a guy named, uh, Raghu, uh, Venigopal.
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Um, he's interacted with me frequently on X. Uh, he is clearly a social justice warrior. He's been
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freaking out over Ontario premier Doug Ford, expanding the sale of alcohol, predicting that tens of thousands
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of people are going to die as a result of this. Yet he, um, he absolutely supports safe supply and
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safe injection sites, which we know the safe supply is leading to increased deaths. And at the same time,
00:07:53.100
just three weeks ago was encourage everyone to mask up in public over COVID. I look at his public
00:08:01.800
pronouncements and I don't see a doctor. I see an activist who happens to be a doctor and is putting
00:08:07.960
his political views ahead of sane, rational discussion. I mean, we can have a discussion
00:08:14.500
about the impact of, well, expanding alcohol sales and will there be harms and, and harms versus
00:08:20.360
benefits and all of that. But on every issue, it seems like he just adopts whatever the far left has.
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There's a group of them at the top of the chain. They're all, they're all patting themselves on the
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back and saying that this is the way, uh, congratulations. And this is, this is the
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way of the future and everyone else who doesn't agree. I mean, I've seen some of his posts and
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they don't tend to be all that, uh, well, they're not, not all that polite to, especially to
00:08:49.600
professor Revers who wrote that op-ed last week, exposing, they're good at debate.
00:08:54.960
Uh, so how do you fight back? You know, if most, you know, a few doctors that I've spoken to,
00:09:06.660
including yourself have said that they don't believe that the majority of doctors support this.
00:09:12.280
And yet clearly the activists have taken control of the institution. So how do you stop this from
00:09:20.960
happening? Uh, before I answer that question, I want to share some other news that may make us
00:09:27.000
feel better, but may also make us feel worse. This is actually part of a wider trend in Western
00:09:31.360
medicine of, uh, progressive agenda taking over. So the American Medical Association, for example,
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they've also, they also say the same things formally. They want to embed anti-racism, racial equity,
00:09:42.780
social justice into their organizations. And then in Europe, it's a similar thing going on.
00:09:48.220
But how do you fight back? I actually think, uh, public awareness, first of all, is public
00:09:54.220
pressure, public awareness is, is having its effect. The college did email me two days ago
00:10:01.420
to say, to give me some updates that A, that they're actually implementing in 2027 and B, that
00:10:07.640
they are going to, uh, release some updates on the framework sometime later this month, see
00:10:14.700
what they do and what they, how much they walk back. But the other way to fight this is really,
00:10:20.200
I think we should be pushing for regulatory bodies over, uh, for legislation against regulatory body
00:10:26.980
overreach. And I know you've done some work on, uh, reporting on Jordan Peterson's case, but that's
00:10:31.220
definitely on a lot of our minds. And it's probably the reason why this has gotten to this point without
00:10:36.300
too much of, uh, public awareness. Cause we're just afraid to speak up.
00:10:41.000
In Jordan Peterson's case, uh, which I, uh, was reporting on around the same time as I started
00:10:47.540
reporting on CanMeds. Um, and well, actually, I guess it was the year previous, crazy things, uh,
00:10:54.020
come up at the end of December in the news cycle. And, and this is one of them. But in,
00:10:58.440
when I was first reporting on what was happening to Jordan Peterson, I heard from teachers, lawyers,
00:11:06.340
doctors, engineers, all kinds of people who are required as part of their job to belong to these
00:11:12.980
professional associations. And they said, I'm worried about this too. Now, if this goes forward,
00:11:19.460
I'm in, in terms of medicine, I'm worried about what it means for the future of teaching. And we have
00:11:27.240
seen several medical schools already implement, uh, you know, fast tracks for certain racialized or
00:11:34.780
minority groups. I hate that term racialized. The term racialized to me actually sounds like it's
00:11:40.460
white supremacist because it makes it sound like being white is the norm and everyone else is
00:11:45.880
racialized. Therefore not the norm. I don't use the term. It's the woke left that uses it. And to me,
00:11:52.800
that sounds white supremacist, but anyways, so using their term, there are fast tracks and,
00:11:58.760
and special, uh, uh, admissions, uh, formats for racialized groups within medical schools.
00:12:05.620
Now we've got this, but I, I think that what you have to be worried about next is what's happened
00:12:12.020
to Dr. Peterson. That if you have the wrong thought, you will be punished by your regulatory body.
00:12:19.680
Absolutely. We need to protect the ability of physicians and every other regulated professional
00:12:25.560
to be able to speak. That's how we defeat this. And, and I did want to comment as well on your,
00:12:30.700
the admissions criteria, because I think I see that coming as well. And in fact,
00:12:35.180
they even explicitly call for it in the supporting documents for this CanMeds 2025 framework of getting
00:12:41.040
social justice, equity, diversity, inclusivity, the new holy trinity into the, uh, admissions.
00:12:47.360
If you look at specifically, I'll, I'll highlight Dalhousie, but I can see this as part of a wider
00:12:52.460
trend with medical school admissions. Dalhousie does not have a minimum stand, minimum GPA or MCAT
00:12:58.520
requirements for two particular preferred racial groups. They, I think the medical schools need to
00:13:05.140
be pressed onto how are they going to make sure that this just doesn't end up being racial quotas?
00:13:09.800
You know, I have been treated by doctors of all backgrounds. Um, you know, my family physician
00:13:18.200
for the longest time, uh, when I lived in Hamilton was from India. Um, his son who, you know, in,
00:13:24.900
he was an Indian immigrant, his son who was born here, raised here. I believe he's taking over the
00:13:29.180
practice. Now my, my, uh, family members still go to that GP. Uh, I've had Arabic Muslim doctors,
00:13:35.800
Jewish doctors, you know, I just want a good doctor. Uh, it's, this is a, a bizarre way of
00:13:44.320
handling it. One of the top obstetricians in Ottawa. Uh, and I believe that, that the, the
00:13:50.020
groups, uh, one of the groups, uh, getting favorable access are, are black students. Uh, this would
00:13:56.440
offend, uh, that one of the top obstetricians that, uh, delivered my kids, uh, when I was in
00:14:01.980
Ottawa, uh, Dr. Nimrod would have been furious with this. He was very accomplished man. Uh,
00:14:07.540
you, you don't get the best doctors through this format.
00:14:13.660
The, this movement is also very anti-meritocratic and they're explicit about it. So no, you don't
00:14:18.160
get the best doctors. And what do Canadians want? The people who are most capable of being
00:14:23.360
Uh, so medical schools are going down this route. Dalhousie's, uh, gone this route already. I believe
00:14:29.960
university of Alberta, uh, U of T I'm guessing can't be far behind. Uh,
00:14:36.720
Queens, my own school is, uh, they, they were excited to announce a few months ago, um, these
00:14:42.200
exciting changes. And I think they tripped over themselves many times trying to say the word
00:14:46.240
diversity in their announcement as many times as possible. So.
00:14:49.180
What was your medical school like when, when you went, uh, I mean, it's, uh, trying to find a
00:14:59.240
family doctor here in Toronto. It, you are getting doctors from all over the world. And I, I, I probably
00:15:06.540
see fewer white doctors than, than ever before. You know, isn't it, uh, uh, a huge melting pot or
00:15:13.560
mosaic in medical schools in this country already?
00:15:16.500
Absolutely. I was, I was a Queens graduate of 2009 class, uh, school of medicine, and it was a
00:15:23.200
melting pot of everyone, every ethnicity, uh, about 50, 50 men and women. It's about as even as
00:15:28.820
you can get, but we weren't divided like it is now. And all they do is they sow division between
00:15:33.660
people. I actually grew up in Toronto. I was born and raised here and race was never really talked
00:15:38.860
about. And now it seems to be the only thing we talk about.
00:15:41.920
What I remember was, and I I've used this example before I was taught what Martin Luther King
00:15:49.260
professed judge people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin. And
00:15:55.820
that may have been what I was taught in, in school in the eighties, but I would say that Malcolm X is
00:16:02.720
won the day and not Martin Luther King. Uh, we know we, we now judge people based on their race,
00:16:10.060
based on their ethnicity. And, and, and the, the, the people that say they're anti-racist
00:16:20.060
They're masters of language. They've actually been quite successful in changing the definition
00:16:24.040
of racism. And now it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's gone the other way, uh, within practice,
00:16:31.700
is this talked about, or is it just the small group of activists, uh, with your fellow doctors?
00:16:38.780
I think it is talked about in, see, I practice it in the community. So I think within the academic
00:16:44.180
echo chambers, it is talked about quietly in the community, my colleagues and I, we do talk about
00:16:50.100
it for sure, but we, we can't really say it aloud. We can't broadcast say on X. There's only one
00:16:55.400
political ideology that you can broadcast loudly as you know, it's, it's what, whatever they're
00:16:59.880
saying, there are no consequences for that. But yeah, it's hard to know exactly how many people
00:17:05.640
would, uh, would be against their position, but I do have a sense that it is 90 plus percent of
00:17:10.660
physicians. We just, we can't say it. Uh, have you been called a white supremacist yet for opposing this?
00:17:16.240
Not yet. Uh, because people are listening to us and, and not watching us, uh, I'll just point out
00:17:24.380
that I don't think you're white. I might be the brown face of white supremacy. It might be a
00:17:30.940
moniker I'll get soon. Yeah. Um, you know, so, but I'm amazed they haven't called you that yet. Uh,
00:17:38.800
but I'm, I'm sure it's coming shortly. Yeah. I mean, I'm not the only one speaking out. I just,
00:17:44.000
I think I'm the most recent about this and I don't think I'll be the last one until there's a
00:17:47.980
elimination of politics from medicine. All right. Well, we need to take a quick break,
00:17:53.220
but when we come back, uh, we'll chat a bit about your book, uh, because you do have a new book out
00:17:58.100
and it is called, let me just scroll back up, uh, lost and found how meaningless living is destroying
00:18:03.700
us in three keys to fix it more in moments. The push to change how we view medicine, how we view
00:18:10.600
reality, quite frankly, isn't just happening in Canada. We've been talking about can meds with
00:18:15.920
Dr. Mark D'Souza, but Dr. D'Souza, the, uh, this issue is global. You've pointed to a UCLA medical
00:18:25.260
school. Uh, tell me about the segregated classes. I thought we were against segregation and education,
00:18:31.820
but apparently it's back in vogue at UCLA's medical school.
00:18:35.960
What's old is new again, Brian. And it seems like, uh, the, the, one of the medical schools
00:18:42.700
affiliated with the university of UCLA, they are trying segregated classes for some sessions.
00:18:49.680
They wrote this up in the new England journal of medicine a few years ago, and they seem
00:18:53.060
very proud of it as if, and, and so I use this example as an example of, you know, people may ask
00:18:58.360
me, why are you worried? It won't go that far in Canada. So I can imagine all these disaster
00:19:03.360
possibilities in Canada, but I can just stick to, for the audience, things that are happening
00:19:09.380
quite close to us. And if we keep going down this route, why wouldn't we end up with segregated
00:19:14.840
classes like UCLA? Cause it's all part of the same movement.
00:19:19.340
The, uh, the issue of gender, uh, it's not in can meds, but you are seeing it show up elsewhere.
00:19:25.940
And you were telling me that European cardiologists have removed gender from how they treat things.
00:19:34.360
Explain that because, you know, my understanding of the human body is still that men and women
00:19:41.920
This is the tide that we've been seeing and many doctors have been very worried about the
00:19:46.740
future of medicine, the actual delivery of medical care, because we could see where this
00:19:50.780
was going. And now finally you see some very objective change. The European society of cardiology
00:19:56.820
just removed the women as a risk factor for stroke. So that will have direct implications
00:20:01.960
in how we treat women or, uh, for strokes because of, uh, and they actually say that this will,
00:20:08.860
the inclusion of gender in the criteria will complicate medical practice.
00:20:16.520
Because it gets confusing with transgender, non-binary, but in reality, yeah, women would
00:20:23.720
being a woman is a risk factor. So they will be under treated.
00:20:27.240
So, but you know, my understanding is that stroke things like strokes and heart attacks,
00:20:34.600
the symptoms and how things can be proactively dealt with or treated that, that there are differences
00:20:43.420
between men and women, uh, or am I incorrect in my thinking?
00:20:49.240
The whole array of pathology in humans has very, uh, we were trained in medical school and we learned
00:20:55.600
throughout that we, what, what, what is the age, what is the patient, what is the sex of the patient?
00:21:00.300
And that really does play into your diagnostic capabilities. This is more likely, or that is
00:21:06.480
more likely. We're going to start to miss things as gender gets really confusing and deleted from,
00:21:14.980
I was, you know, it's amazing that this is happening at the same time as we're, uh, getting
00:21:20.460
breakthroughs because I was reading a, an article maybe two, three months ago about how doctors have,
00:21:28.920
uh, determined some new differences in, in how to spot heart attacks and risk factors for women,
00:21:37.140
because men have been, you know, more men have heart attacks than women. They have been women,
00:21:43.560
uh, and how it shows with women that that's been overlooked and understudied. And, and so we've got
00:21:51.220
new information about, Hey, this is how heart attacks show up in women. This is how to, to spot the
00:21:58.820
signs. This is how to treat them. And now you've got these activists trying to brush all that aside
00:22:03.280
in the name of their ideology. People, I mean, I mean, uh, Dr. Venipal thinks that, uh, beer in
00:22:10.440
corner stores will kill people. This will kill people. It's quite a distraction from the changes
00:22:16.500
to medicines when you're just through activism. So yeah, this will kill people. Heart attacks
00:22:21.460
specifically in women are harder to pick up and now it's going to be even harder if you can't say
00:22:25.020
the word woman. Uh, Oh, look, I think most sensible doctors will, but if, if this is not stopped,
00:22:32.400
you know, this will show up in can meds and then this is how doctors will be treated.
00:22:38.040
And, uh, speaking with Dr. Gad Sada a little while ago about how bad ideas that start in the
00:22:45.260
sociology department in universities and get ignored, don't stay there. It's not like Vegas. They don't
00:22:50.380
stay there. This will keep spreading. And while you're fighting back against that, maybe the next
00:22:55.300
generation of doctors will say, Oh no, absolutely. We, we can't, we can't, you know, uh, determine
00:23:02.040
anything by someone's gender and we shouldn't consider gender in treating people. Uh, you know,
00:23:07.940
prostate cancer shows up the same in everyone. It doesn't have to be in Canada to get up in the
00:23:14.040
curriculum. So you think medical schools will just, uh, adopt these things over the coming years?
00:23:23.200
It's hard to say. I do worry. That's the case. Orwell did warn about how language shapes thoughts.
00:23:29.400
And you can see, even as, as a, uh, this American medical association has this document on how to
00:23:34.620
say it's pregnant persons now, or they encourage us to say assigned sex assigned at birth. They're
00:23:40.720
really pushing hard on the language. They all do in the woke mind virus. And yeah, I can't see how
00:23:46.480
that doesn't affect medical training. Yeah. I remember a little while ago, um, Marcy Ian,
00:23:54.080
the liberal MP and cabinet minister, who's in charge of, uh, women's equity. She is using this
00:24:00.360
non-gendered language. She was talking about women and referring to them as menstruators. And I can't
00:24:07.120
think of, uh, uh, a word that women would want to use to describe themselves any less than menstruators.
00:24:15.140
Uh, menstruation is a fact of life, but I've never met a single woman that enjoys it and, or would want
00:24:20.720
to be identified as you're no longer a woman, you're a menstruator. It is, uh, I actually find the, the push
00:24:29.380
on changing gender in the language is aimed more at women than men. And I've described it as an attempt
00:24:36.880
to erase women and femininity from our language. It's not happening to men and, and, and men need
00:24:44.440
to speak up, I think, but women also need to stand up and say, hell no, I am a woman. You will not refer
00:24:50.500
to me as a, a person who is pregnant, a person who menstruates. Yeah. So what have we, what have we
00:24:58.140
said has come back in vogue. So racism has come back in vogue, sexism against women, segregation.
00:25:03.620
Is this where we're headed? I, I, I think it is. Um, and, and, and that does worry me. Uh, let's talk
00:25:11.860
a bit, uh, about your book lost and found how meaning this living is destroying us in three keys
00:25:17.500
to, to fix it. What do you mean by meaningless living? Well, I actually, I wrote this to, I really
00:25:25.080
started writing to try to answer the question for myself, why we're so divided and increasingly
00:25:30.840
divided and people seem, despite how materially prosperous our society is, how empty we are
00:25:36.660
on the inside. And then at the deeper question I was asking myself at the time was, why do people
00:25:42.940
take opioids? Because I was practicing addiction medicine at that time as well. Why do you, why
00:25:47.140
do people throw young people with promising futures, throw their lives away or opioids? And
00:25:52.900
at the deepest answer I found simplistically is just to say that they really lack meaning and
00:25:56.840
purpose. So they're looking for something to fill the void. Man does not live on bread
00:26:03.840
alone. Uh, so I mean, without giving away everything, you want people to read the book. How, how do
00:26:13.240
we fix it? But I think in hindsight, this is, was my stab at a cure for the, the woke my virus.
00:26:20.060
And there's, there are three things that I organically discovered. And I think even just
00:26:24.140
one might bring us men to societal rift and bring us back together and hopefully even give
00:26:29.560
people purpose enough to stop taking opioids. So one is freedom of speech, especially for
00:26:35.520
those who you don't agree with. And you and I covered on this podcast, the importance of
00:26:40.260
especially having freedom of speech protected for good professionals. But I think if you had
00:26:44.980
freedom of speech, the whole, this, all these arguments for, uh, for women being, uh, taken
00:26:53.460
removed from, as a risk factor for, for stroke or all the, all the woke arguments disappear.
00:26:58.980
And then you sprinkle in the other two solutions. So traditional values, at least I argue for traditional
00:27:04.820
religion and then some personal responsibility. None of those things are in the progressive agenda.
00:27:10.020
The, the idea that, um, uh, there is higher purpose out there is universal, uh, regardless
00:27:18.500
of your faith or, or lack of it, even atheists I know will say, um, that there is a higher purpose
00:27:26.860
or a calling. That's part of what you talk about in the book. I'm, you know, you can have
00:27:34.440
your own faith, you can have something else, but you need a, a, a purpose. And I think a lot
00:27:39.340
of people have, have lost that in, in, in the way that we've organized society now.
00:27:44.980
Right. And fall for these, what I call replacement religions or just any faulty belief systems. So
00:27:50.120
the middle part of the book is walking people through the most popular replaced religions
00:27:54.980
or faulty belief systems. I actually have the, uh, the whole episode that you documented quite
00:28:00.260
well on the math is racist is in there because I thought it was a great example, how languages
00:28:05.520
used to distort, distort, uh, thought. And I also walked people through, uh, the climate
00:28:11.980
alarmism as a replacement religion. I used one of your colleagues, um, Lori Goldstein's excellent
00:28:17.520
reporting on the, on emissions targets, failed candidate Canadian emissions target, which
00:28:23.220
was really helpful. Uh, it's, uh, Lori has done amazing work on that. And, uh, there's no doubt
00:28:30.200
that climate alarmism has become a religion and, you know, it, it is, you see the people
00:28:37.700
that will glue themselves to, uh, a road or, uh, an artistic masterpiece. They're so devoted
00:28:47.560
to that. They have, uh, replaced any other faith with their, this new belief system. And
00:28:53.740
it leads to any belief system can lead to extremism, but there are some extreme, uh, to use Pierre
00:29:00.360
Pauliev's word, uh, of late wackos, uh, within that movement. Yeah. I even have a chapter doing
00:29:08.040
the cowdog diversity, equity, inclusivity, which, which is part of this canvans in the woke
00:29:12.760
movement. That, that is what it is all about. Uh, the book is out, uh, just over, uh, a couple
00:29:19.580
of weeks now it is called lost and found how meaningless living is destroying us in three
00:29:24.240
keys to fix it by Mark D'Souza. Uh, Mark, thanks so much for the time today. And thanks
00:29:29.560
for, uh, the book. Uh, I have not read it yet, but trust me, I will. And keep us updated
00:29:34.880
on your fight against, uh, the, the insanity within the medical school. I know that you're
00:29:41.000
not alone. Definitely. Thank you so much for having me, Brian.
00:29:45.500
Full Comment is a post media podcast. My name's Brian Lilly, your host. This episode was produced
00:29:51.320
by Andre Pru with theme music by Bryce Hall. Kevin Libin is the executive producer. Remember
00:29:56.320
you can subscribe to Full Comment on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, uh, Amazon Music,
00:30:02.240
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00:30:06.920
for listening until next time. I'm Brian Lilly.