Full Comment - “This is a hill to die on” – the looming fight against Liberal fertilizer rules

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00:01:28.000 Hello, I'm Anthony Fury.

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00:01:40.420 The idea of discussing regulations pertaining to fertilizer usage at first seems like, well,

00:01:46.700 one of the most boring possible topics for the average Canadian who isn't involved in

00:01:50.520 that line of work.

00:01:51.180 What does it have to do with my life?

00:01:52.840 But what more people have been learning, really just the past few weeks, is that the answer

00:01:57.220 to that question is everything.

00:01:59.740 And that far from being a boring topic, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's new policies aimed

00:02:05.300 at reducing fertilizer usage in the name of fighting climate change could just be his most

00:02:11.480 controversial move to date.

00:02:13.840 After all, major protests by farmers and their allies are erupting in other countries around

00:02:18.040 the world, such as the Netherlands and Sri Lanka, due to similar policies.

00:02:22.040 Now, the Liberals describe their own plan as a harmless proposal to reduce emissions from

00:02:28.040 fertilizers by 30% between 2020 and 2030.

00:02:33.200 But a number of farmers and industry experts say what this will really mean in practice

00:02:37.760 is a reduction in our food supply, farms going out of business, and the price of food going

00:02:43.880 up even more than it already has this year.

00:02:46.360 So what's really going on here?

00:02:48.120 Our guest today knows this issue from both the perspective of a farmer and a politician.

00:02:53.740 Jerry Ritz served as Canada's agriculture minister from 2007 to 2015 in the conservative

00:02:59.120 government of Stephen Harper.

00:03:00.540 And before entering politics, he spent over 20 years working as a farmer in Saskatchewan.

00:03:05.460 Jerry Ritz joins us now.

00:03:07.060 Jerry, welcome to the program.

00:03:08.120 Great to have you here.

00:03:09.540 Yes.

00:03:09.780 G'day, Anthony.

00:03:10.640 It's a pleasure to be here.

00:03:11.740 Really looking forward to your insights, of course, from both sides of that aisle, politics

00:03:15.120 and, of course, from the farmer perspective here.

00:03:17.920 So, yeah, liberal government, they've been doing a whole bunch of things about climate

00:03:21.220 change, reducing emissions.

00:03:22.400 And they say, hey, this fertilizer thing, it's just one small part of our broader plan.

00:03:26.080 And, you know, it's harmless.

00:03:27.280 And all this is, is about reducing these emissions by 30%.

00:03:30.740 Kind of seems similar to our Paris deal.

00:03:32.860 And, you know, it's no biggie.

00:03:34.300 How would you describe what's actually going on here, though?

00:03:37.400 Well, you can add consumer to my list as both a politician and a farmer as well.

00:03:41.420 Just like you, I eat and I'm very concerned that this is going to curtail our ability to

00:03:47.400 produce food that we export as well as use domestically.

00:03:50.220 And it'll drive prices up.

00:03:51.740 Anytime governments bring in heavy-handed regulations like this without consultation,

00:03:57.020 they're doing this backwards.

00:03:58.380 They made the announcement, picked this 30% number out of the air, and now they're trying

00:04:02.600 to ram it down everybody's throats.

00:04:04.180 They're now saying, oh, it was voluntary.

00:04:06.820 Well, there's no such thing with government as voluntary.

00:04:08.680 We've seen that with their gun buybacks and all these other programs that they do.

00:04:12.400 But this is really a heavy-handed insult to Canadian farmers who've been going down this

00:04:17.980 road.

00:04:18.280 They're actually leading government in environmental protection on their farms for 20 years.

00:04:23.360 And there's no recognition of that in this heavy-handed announcement.

00:04:27.980 Now, walk me through how this actual reduction in fertilizer emissions could result in the price

00:04:35.060 of food going up.

00:04:35.740 You say, okay, well, you're using a bunch of fertilizers, just, well, use a little bit

00:04:39.100 more, and there you go.

00:04:39.980 But you'll make the same food, and it'll be fine, and so forth.

00:04:43.980 Well, the problem is they're not recognizing the work that farmers are doing now in mapping

00:04:48.980 their land.

00:04:50.120 And, you know, fertilizer isn't cheap.

00:04:51.620 So what farmers have done is taken the bull by the horns, literally, and come up with

00:04:56.040 new technology, new innovative ways, working with their counterparts in industry, to put

00:05:01.760 on the right amount of fertilizer, the right kind of fertilizer, at the right time, in the

00:05:05.840 right spot.

00:05:06.900 What they do is they map their land with soil samples.

00:05:10.140 And then from that, it goes up to the cloud and creates a GPS map that your air seeder,

00:05:14.940 your high-clearance sprayer, and even your combine and so on, then follow.

00:05:18.700 And what that does is give you the most effective, efficient use of any of your input costs, as

00:05:23.860 well as the fuel that's required to apply them and then harvest the crop.

00:05:27.200 And there's no recognition for that.

00:05:28.960 The problem with this program, and we were briefed at the municipal level by a provincial

00:05:33.700 group that are handling some of the money that's supposed to enhance this.

00:05:37.660 And if you're doing any of this now, you get no credit for it.

00:05:41.140 You have to stop doing it for an undefined period of time and then start up again. 0.93

00:05:45.460 And that's just absolutely ridiculous.

00:05:48.780 You know, any industry out there, any business, and farming is big business, will tell you 0.84

00:05:53.000 their biggest problem now is government.

00:05:57.340 Sorry, they would have to stop doing the efficient use of fertilizer for a little bit so that

00:06:02.800 they then have a window where they can later come into compliance with this law or something?

00:06:07.960 Yeah.

00:06:08.320 Yeah.

00:06:08.480 If you're side banding already, which is the most effective use of fertilizer, getting

00:06:11.880 it right down in there beside the seed, they don't recognize that as being environmentally

00:06:17.100 friendly.

00:06:17.640 And farmers have been doing that with air seeders for 20 years and then getting better at it.

00:06:22.260 The other thing is they're using the right amount of fertilizer, which is a huge difference,

00:06:27.260 in the right spots.

00:06:28.300 So you're not putting 30 pounds of ant across your whole field.

00:06:31.000 You're only putting on a maybe 30 or 40% where it's required.

00:06:34.920 And there's no credit for that.

00:06:37.060 There are slow release nitrogen and fertilizers out there, but they cost more.

00:06:42.480 And of course, they'll drive the price of those commodities up over time. 0.55

00:06:45.020 But even those aren't recognized as a reliable way to get this done.

00:06:48.940 So everything that farmers have done with environmental farm plans and so on, all the way through to

00:06:55.220 this juncture where they can actually prove with the carbon sequestration that's going

00:07:00.360 on that they're net zero, if you want to call it that.

00:07:03.320 And there's no recognition of any of that in this consultation phase after the fact.

00:07:09.580 Now, Jerry, bring us back to basics for a moment here.

00:07:12.100 I'm here in downtown Toronto.

00:07:13.580 I've already had my obligatory latte this morning.

00:07:16.340 What are fertilizers?

00:07:18.880 What do they do?

00:07:19.760 What do they accomplish?

00:07:20.720 Why are they used?

00:07:22.540 Well, there's different levels of fertilizer.

00:07:25.420 Actually, as important as fertilizer anymore are the micronutrients.

00:07:29.220 And that's what the soil sampling and so on does.

00:07:32.340 Carver, copper, magnesium, sulfur, all these different little micronutrients that get applied

00:07:38.380 to some of them top dressed, some of them applied with the seed or done up ahead of time in

00:07:42.520 the fall before you see in the spring.

00:07:43.840 But fertilizers basically kickstart the growth of the product.

00:07:48.740 And they, you know, some people will top dress with certain fertilizers that'll help 0.98

00:07:52.880 some of the stuff pod out properly or bring it further on in adding fruit to that, you

00:07:59.760 know, the seed that is required.

00:08:01.660 So they are chemicals that are added and farmers have got a great story to tell about using

00:08:07.160 less of these, but more intensively where they're required.

00:08:10.580 And again, as I said, these environmental farm plans that guys have been doing for years,

00:08:14.460 because this stuff's expensive.

00:08:16.080 And, you know, farming to run an effective, efficient business economically, they don't spend

00:08:21.860 more than they need to.

00:08:22.680 Now, I've heard some people basically say that fertilizers are what allows us to have

00:08:29.220 our modern way of living in terms of providing the volume of food we need for the number of

00:08:35.160 people we have in this world.

00:08:36.560 And without them, we'd be pushed, I guess, closer to, I don't know, pre-industrial revolution

00:08:40.220 numbers or agriculture revolution.

00:08:42.660 What role do fertilizers play in being able to allow us the amount of food we need?

00:08:47.340 Well, they increase the yield exponentially, you know, organic farmers where they'll get,

00:08:53.540 and I'll pick some numbers out of a hat here, and there'll be somebody that'll take exception

00:08:56.860 with them.

00:08:57.240 But, you know, a good organic crop might be 30 bushel an acre, where today's average

00:09:02.000 yield is probably approaching 45 or 50.

00:09:04.780 And that's what fertilizers and chemicals do. 0.95

00:09:07.040 It gives you a cleaner crop.

00:09:09.220 Seed varieties have changed as well, so that they're stronger to withstand floods and droughts

00:09:14.180 and some sort of bugs, infestations, and mold, and mildew, and all those things that attack

00:09:18.260 your crop.

00:09:19.120 So at the end of the day, you know, our food products rely on those incentives, I'll call

00:09:24.720 them, in the fertilizers and chemicals that are applied judiciously by today's farmers.

00:09:30.580 So if we stop using fertilizer, if we use, if we go all to organic farming, which I'm going

00:09:35.560 to ask you about one country that's exploring that right now and having some major consequences.

00:09:40.280 If we, if we, yeah, if we go right to organic farming, we see,

00:09:44.180 like, a 35% reduction in our food, basically.

00:09:48.160 Yeah, absolutely.

00:09:49.200 You'll see that in the first year of production.

00:09:52.380 Canada's in a little different situation.

00:09:54.080 Sri Lanka's struggling to feed themselves.

00:09:56.340 Canada, we feed ourselves in an export between 50 to 80%, depending on the commodity.

00:10:00.380 We are a large landmass country with very industrious farm organizations and farmers

00:10:07.360 themselves.

00:10:08.440 And at the end of the day, we overproduce.

00:10:10.200 And that makes us, the agricultural sector, the third largest contributor to Canada's GDP.

00:10:16.200 There's no recognition of what that will do to all of the jobs that rely on that extra

00:10:20.660 product for export or even food processing in this country, which is escaping in droves

00:10:24.680 due to the carbon tax and other crazy ideas like that.

00:10:27.580 Now, the liberal government is saying that any concerns to this effect are, well, they like

00:10:32.440 using that phrase misinformation.

00:10:33.760 Everyone uses that phrase now for things they don't like.

00:10:36.040 There was a guest column in the post-media papers by Lloyd Longfield.

00:10:38.780 He is a liberal MP.

00:10:40.240 And he said, hold on a second.

00:10:41.560 Well, Lloyd wrote, hold on a second here.

00:10:43.500 This law explicitly says that, quote, actions to achieve emissions reductions will focus

00:10:48.240 on improving nitrogen management and optimizing fertilizer use and not on a mandatory reduction

00:10:53.800 in the use of fertilizers.

00:10:56.260 And I get a little bit confused by this because you're basically saying, well, yeah, farmers

00:10:59.560 already want to reduce all of this.

00:11:01.260 They already want to improve efficiency.

00:11:03.080 So I'm kind of left going.

00:11:05.080 If the government's saying that's what they want to do, you're saying that's already happening.

00:11:08.180 And the government says, oh, this isn't even mandatory.

00:11:10.620 They go, well, what?

00:11:11.700 Why is the government talking about it then?

00:11:13.420 Why are they calling it regulations and restrictions and laws?

00:11:16.160 Yeah.

00:11:16.500 What's happening here?

00:11:17.960 Well, it's communications talking points.

00:11:19.740 They realize they've stepped in the cow pie out in the pasture and they're starting to

00:11:22.980 shake their foot and hope it falls off.

00:11:25.440 This whole concept that somehow government in Ottawa and provinces, for that matter, are smarter

00:11:31.180 than the people on the ground, has always been a misnomer.

00:11:34.360 I had a great big sticker on the front of my question period book and all my trade journals

00:11:38.900 and so on saying farmers first.

00:11:41.220 Farms for years and years have always been the repository of everything that failed anywhere

00:11:46.480 on the food chain above them or on the input line below them.

00:11:49.720 They were where the buck stopped.

00:11:52.560 And this is no different.

00:11:54.080 You know, they're calling for consultations now after the fact, but still not recognizing.

00:11:59.320 And I saw Marie-Claude Bebeau the other day musing about the fact, well, they'll take

00:12:04.440 a look at what farmers are doing and they may add it in.

00:12:06.680 They may, they may.

00:12:08.040 And, you know, Lloyd's guest editorial is just sleight of hand, smoke of mirrors.

00:12:12.420 He's starting to get some pushback.

00:12:14.000 His is an agricultural-based riding.

00:12:17.140 You know, he's got the college there and so on that's very much ag-focused.

00:12:20.240 And he's starting to feel some heat.

00:12:21.880 So they've been told, OK, go out there and tell them we're really not serious about this,

00:12:25.260 but we want you guys to step up and do this.

00:12:27.800 Well, farmers can already prove they've probably gone beyond what government has done.

00:12:32.740 And I think it's time for government to catch up to farmers, not the other way around.

00:12:36.420 So we found in the Netherlands, we've got farmers there who are doing really aggressive protests.

00:12:40.900 They are blocking highways.

00:12:42.300 They are blocking grocery stores.

00:12:44.220 Police have really been getting involved in all of that.

00:12:46.400 We had some protests in Canada that were sold as allies to the Dutch farmers.

00:12:51.520 But at the same time, they were already starting to talk about this legislation.

00:12:54.300 So we already kind of have farmer protests on the ground here in Canada.

00:12:57.980 Where do you see this headed?

00:12:59.720 After all, you're saying there's a bit of kind of backpedaling from the government or at least trying to manage things and deal with this blowback right now.

00:13:08.240 What's going to happen in the weeks and months ahead?

00:13:09.940 Well, I think farmers will start to come to grips with this.

00:13:13.600 I'm a little bit concerned that the so-called farm groups that live off of checkoffs from farmers themselves aren't up on the battlements with this.

00:13:22.400 I mean, this is a hill to die on.

00:13:24.280 And they just haven't grasped that yet.

00:13:26.480 They somehow, I don't know if it's Stockholm syndrome over the last seven years of Trudeau government, that it could be worse.

00:13:31.080 It probably could be.

00:13:31.980 But at the end of the day, guys, if you don't take a stand now, go to your province because, you know, the administration of all these programs falls to the provincial level.

00:13:42.120 And they're going to face the heat. 0.69

00:13:43.660 The liberals are very good about taking, I'll call them bullshit regulations like this and let somebody else face the wrath of the people that are covered by them. 0.91

00:13:52.340 And that can't happen in this instance. 0.67

00:13:56.300 I mean, people are already working with three- and five-year crop cycles that use the nitrogen put into the soil by the beans, peas, lentils, chickpeas, that type of thing, onto their wheat next year.

00:14:09.800 They don't necessarily put barley on that because it drives the protein level up.

00:14:13.360 And that, of course, then doesn't allow it to go for malt.

00:14:15.960 So farmers are educated.

00:14:18.180 You know, you look at the average age and the average education of farmers now, it is way beyond what my generation was.

00:14:25.720 University degrees, these guys are experts in doing what they're doing.

00:14:30.160 You look at the technology that they're working with.

00:14:32.700 You know, they keep their iPad in the cab of whatever implement they're using because that's what then powers the implement with this information coming back down from the cloud.

00:14:41.600 So they're light years ahead of agriculture that I'm watching anywhere else in the world.

00:14:46.720 We sequester carbon on a tonnage basis that is unaccounted for in this whole thing.

00:14:54.700 I mean, the Liberals have pulled these climate change problems out of thin air.

00:15:02.800 First, it was carbon, and we all realize we need CO2 to grow things.

00:15:06.060 We have an unprecedented forest cover and crop cover in this country that sucks up carbon way beyond what anybody is allowing.

00:15:15.600 We're seeing only one side of the science out there, and that needs to be adjusted, too.

00:15:21.260 We've politicized the science.

00:15:23.780 We have now politicized groups like Farm Credit Canada that have a box to check off, and they're falling back on this.

00:15:31.000 And I've still got people there that are on the right side of these issues, but they're saying, well, Trudeau's made it a law that we have to anybody that supported the convoys and other things, you know, they have to check a box saying they weren't serious about it or they won't renew their loan.

00:15:43.460 And they're going to follow that same thing with another box that says if you're not following Trudeau's environmental plan, you're not going to get a loan.

00:15:49.680 And they're the largest farm-based lender in the country, some $44 billion package in there that they've done a good job to adjust, and they're going to put that all at risk with farmers.

00:16:02.020 The banks will go along.

00:16:03.140 They went along with the lockdown and the freezing accounts and so on, and that concerns me.

00:16:08.520 This could go off the rails very, very quickly here if farmers don't stand up and take charge of this issue and really push back hard.

00:16:15.340 We'll be back with more with Jerry Ritz in just a moment.

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00:18:05.200 Jerry, you mentioned this being part of overall climate plans, and it's interesting.

00:18:08.720 I looked at the emissions, and of course the point of all of these reductions here, reduce fertilizer usage or fertilizer emissions by 30% between 2020 and 2030.

00:18:18.320 Well, the 2020 numbers show that fertilizers accounted for just under 13 megatons of our emissions back then, less than 2% of our national emissions.

00:18:30.540 So when we talk about reducing that usage by a third, you're saying really what we're going to do is reduce Canada's emissions, which we know are just whatever 1.5% of the world's emissions, by something like 0.7%.

00:18:44.800 And I go, okay, we're bringing in all this drama for 0.7%, where maybe you're going to have farmers protesting, you're going to have food prices rising, all for such a tiny amount, I think.

00:18:56.780 Like, why focus on this?

00:18:58.280 Well, that's a very good question.

00:19:00.980 You know, they seem to want to show leadership on the world stage that we're ahead of everybody else.

00:19:04.960 We already are, but we're not taking credit for that.

00:19:08.300 And to double down on this basically lets him shift people's watching the economy in this country, watching what's happening to our justice system.

00:19:16.040 As I like to say, the rule of law in Canada has been perverted to the law of the ruler, and we're seeing all of these other issues out there that are just bombarding us, and we're now arguing about fertilizer.

00:19:28.880 You know, Trudeau's flight plans probably cost more in carbon, and you want to name it, than what farmers can clean up.

00:19:37.280 As you rightly point out, a third of 2% is a rounding error.

00:19:41.220 Yeah.

00:19:41.400 And that's what we're fighting over. 0.96

00:19:43.860 It's absolutely ridiculous.

00:19:45.500 Canada's 1.6% of the global problem, and somehow he thinks he can fix a global problem by changing what Canada does significantly. 1.00

00:19:54.200 And that's just wrong-headed political ideology, bordering on idiocy. 0.96

00:19:59.920 Yeah, I want to pick up on something that you were saying a couple minutes ago. 0.96

00:20:03.280 Basically, this whole idea of farm credit, different banks getting involved, liking it to what happened in the aftermath of the Emergencies Act.

00:20:12.220 So they're pointing out that these targets are going to be voluntary.

00:20:15.020 And I'm like, well, okay, why are we even talking about it then?

00:20:16.960 Why is the government drafting all this stuff on it?

00:20:19.040 If it's voluntary, it means it's not a thing.

00:20:20.920 It's not a government thing.

00:20:21.620 But you're saying basically, okay, it's not mandatory, but we're going to tighten the screws on you in other ways if you don't comply.

00:20:28.560 I think they need to say, not mandatory, and then add, yet.

00:20:34.180 As they get closer to 2030, God help us if there's still anything.

00:20:37.000 There's nothing more permanent than a pilot project.

00:20:39.100 Exactly, especially a government one.

00:20:41.560 You know, I always say government programs are like onions.

00:20:43.800 If you don't like what you've got, you wrap another layer on it.

00:20:46.060 When you try to unwrap it, all it does is make your eyes water at the end of the day.

00:20:50.460 You know, they're throwing money at this.

00:20:51.840 They're throwing all kinds of communications at this.

00:20:55.340 We'll see them double down.

00:20:56.580 You know, I recommend it to my good friend, John Barlow, that he recall the Ag Committee and start getting to the bottom of this.

00:21:03.000 Like, what's driving it?

00:21:03.920 Who's driving it?

00:21:04.940 Why are we trying to lead this in the world when we're seeing what's happening in other countries?

00:21:09.760 Why are we putting our own consumers at risk?

00:21:12.240 Why are we putting our trade corridors with major trading partners like the U.S.?

00:21:16.280 Why are we putting those at risk?

00:21:18.180 There are avenues under the new NAFTA 2.0 or KUSMA or whatever you want to call it that will allow the U.S. to sue us for this type of thing.

00:21:26.000 If it starts to negatively affect their supply chains.

00:21:29.680 And is that something that's going to happen?

00:21:31.340 I know you were on the Tucker Carlson program the other week.

00:21:33.600 He had a great interest in this issue.

00:21:35.380 I think also because of how it could affect the U.S. supply chain and U.S. access to food they bring in from Canada.

00:21:41.480 Are we going to see that sort of stuff happen?

00:21:43.140 That this legislation is basically like a food security risk for other countries?

00:21:47.220 Well, I think they are rightly focusing on that.

00:21:51.460 And, you know, Tucker took it upon himself to start to follow up on some of this.

00:21:55.280 And he's absolutely right.

00:21:56.220 I mean, we buy a lot of those inputs that farmers use, the machinery itself.

00:21:59.700 A lot of that comes from the U.S.

00:22:01.040 And we're going to see those slow down and not be picked up.

00:22:03.800 So that's a huge hit to their industrial side.

00:22:06.740 We proved through the country of origin labeling arguments, which we won, that the amount of food products that go to the U.S. to be processed and then sold all over the world really is a significant driver of their jobs and their manufacturing capacity.

00:22:19.800 So he was rightly, you know, looking at this and saying, OK, what's what's the impact going to be?

00:22:26.080 And it's it's going to be big when you start talking about a 30 percent reduction in emissions.

00:22:32.020 That probably means you're going to have to reduce fertilizer use by more like 50 percent.

00:22:35.860 And if depending on how they set up the measurement, we still don't have a benchmark.

00:22:41.020 They're talking 2020, but nobody really knows what that benchmark is.

00:22:45.540 How do you even verify this?

00:22:46.780 Do you just go by and you put on your little fertilizer goggles and a government inspector stands there and watches how you're spraying it?

00:22:53.920 How does it even tangibly happen?

00:22:56.940 Well, yeah, good question.

00:22:59.240 I, you know, I used to kid when I was in question period, a myriad of of liberal ag ministers.

00:23:04.500 They wanted to measure methane from cattle.

00:23:06.820 And I said, so you become the fart catcher to the world. 0.81

00:23:09.380 How do you how do you measure that?

00:23:11.000 I mean, there's there's less than half the number of animals raised now than buffalo that used to roar across the plains, U.S. and Canada.

00:23:20.060 So there was no methane problem then, you know.

00:23:24.000 Well, when we even when we even say that fertilizers account for two percent of Canada's reductions.

00:23:30.140 Is that a has that been quantified or is that just a projection, a guesstimate?

00:23:34.120 I think it's all guesstimates at this point.

00:23:37.080 There's no peer reviewed scientific agreement on any of this.

00:23:41.180 They're all over the map.

00:23:42.100 It depends who's who's paying for what study as to what results you get.

00:23:46.480 And, you know, farmers themselves.

00:23:48.200 And that's that's why I got involved with a company that is going to apply blockchain into agricultural production.

00:23:54.300 We can go right from the bin, right from the field with a GPS locator.

00:23:59.260 And that's the ultimate transparency into some of these premium markets like Japan, Korea, some of the European markets, even U.S.

00:24:05.480 They want that kind of traceability for their consumers as part of a marketing thing.

00:24:09.440 So we can actually go further back than that and start to input all of the products that were put into that field to develop that yield.

00:24:17.620 Now, that data is worth a tremendous amount of money from food safety, food security, also the data that can run the other way down that blockchain to apply carbon credits to that land in on behalf of that farmer, the production crew.

00:24:33.680 So to me, that's the next big thing is the value of that data.

00:24:38.240 Now, one thing that's very interesting I want to pick up on, you talked about people basically having to pause their positive practices to to allow this to come into effect and later be seen in compliance.

00:24:47.960 I wonder that all these companies that are all these farmers that are doing these really fertilizer efficient practices right now, it seems like they'd still be hit or I don't know.

00:25:01.220 I don't understand really what the law is saying that they would still be hit by a need for a 30 percent reduction.

00:25:06.120 And then the ones that aren't doing it would have a 30 percent reduction.

00:25:09.140 So the people who are the most efficient could even be the most disadvantaged.

00:25:13.300 They'd just be pushed to do even more. Could that happen?

00:25:16.240 Oh, absolutely. And that's part of the argument here is why aren't you giving us credit for what we're already doing?

00:25:21.620 And farmers can quantify what they've been doing through their environmental farm plans that they've been doing for almost two decades.

00:25:28.420 You know, this is their livelihood.

00:25:30.080 They're not going to, you know, ruin their own land when it comes to further production.

00:25:34.320 So the amount, the value of the land has gone up exponentially since the market freedom, especially here in Western Canada.

00:25:42.240 But along with that, farmers are doing an excellent job.

00:25:46.120 Soil health now, and it is measured by academics and science and so on.

00:25:50.920 Soil health now is far better than it was 20, 30 years ago because we leave that tilt in the soil to draw bugs and bacteria and things that help break it down and so on.

00:26:00.640 And there's no credit given for that. That's the part that is, you know, sticks in everybody's craw.

00:26:05.460 And they just can't get by that fact saying on their own dime and on their own time, farmers have gone beyond what governments have asked.

00:26:13.220 And there's no credit given for that.

00:26:15.060 You've got to start over at the government's definition of square one, which is, you know, starting that 100 yard dash 20 yards back.

00:26:21.760 I mean, one thing I've always found very interesting, to put it mildly, I'm sure very frustrating for affected sectors, is government is obviously behind the curve on whatever innovation an industry is doing.

00:26:33.520 Like they got to play catch up to even learn.

00:26:35.080 And then they act like they're the king of that industry, like they have everything all covered.

00:26:38.780 And here it's kind of like, I know in these policies and I know the government spin on all of this, they're saying, well, look, farmers are already doing very efficient stuff.

00:26:46.580 And it's like, well, yeah, shouldn't that be a key indication to you guys that like just step away, just back out of this?

00:26:52.240 Like you guys aren't really aware of what's going on.

00:26:55.500 Yeah.

00:26:55.640 But wouldn't you think that a government wanting to make a sweeping change like this would consult beforehand to find out what's already being done?

00:27:03.980 They didn't.

00:27:04.640 They don't have a clue, you know, the minister we have now was a marketing agent for Quebec, probably never been on a farm in her life, or really realize which end of the cow to milk, as opposed to how you run a tractor.

00:27:19.600 I saw Christia Freeland saying how they really appreciate farmers at the same time they're stealing their livelihood.

00:27:25.500 And she wanted to learn how to drive a tractor.

00:27:27.380 Well, go home to her father. 0.98

00:27:28.320 He farms in northern Alberta.

00:27:30.260 Maybe he's rented or sold out, but now I don't know.

00:27:32.360 But I mean, she was a farm kid way back when.

00:27:34.260 And so, you know, there's a huge disconnect.

00:27:36.480 And I think that's where farmers themselves are falling down on issues like this, where they don't speak directly to consumers.

00:27:43.760 You've got to go beyond government because they're not going to give a damn, you know, what you come up with.

00:27:48.160 They've already got a laser focus on what the result will be so they can brag about it.

00:27:52.980 They're big on announcements, but very, very, very poor on consulting and follow through.

00:27:57.620 This whole idea of transparency and accountability went out the window years ago.

00:28:02.360 I mean, we know Justin Trudeau personally and the liberal government is so obsessed with the green initiatives, the climate stuff.

00:28:09.820 It's really all they talk about.

00:28:10.800 I often say we don't have a prime minister who has an interest in climate change activism.

00:28:14.300 We have a climate activist who just happens to be prime minister.

00:28:16.980 And when we talk about the negatives that could befall this and how we're really talking about such a minuscule amount of emissions anyway, like, is the reason just why are they doing this?

00:28:26.500 Well, because they're obsessed with this stuff.

00:28:28.100 They, you know, they don't really care about the consequences.

00:28:30.220 They're just like climate change, you know, apocalyptic thinking.

00:28:34.340 And so everything's worth it.

00:28:36.340 Well, if every farmer went out and planted two trees, they probably get a pass.

00:28:41.720 That's what they're focused on.

00:28:43.380 You know, there's this whole concept that they're going to put in 2 billion trees and that's somehow going to bring us to zero is beyond ridiculous.

00:28:50.860 I mean, the forestry industry itself plants hundreds of millions of trees every year in regrowth.

00:28:55.180 And farmers do add to their own tree growths and so on.

00:28:59.380 But at the end of the day, there's no compensation or even credit for all the growing that goes on in putting a crop in the ground and harvesting it every year.

00:29:07.980 And that's the biggest, I guess, weak link in this whole chain of government.

00:29:15.020 So what happens next in all of this?

00:29:17.360 Because it does seem like the government's slightly backing away.

00:29:21.000 But then when you talk about them potentially denying farm credit to them, you talk about potential protests, it really does seem like the liberal government really loved what was going on with the convoy in terms of them being able to vilify the people.

00:29:34.600 And they like the idea of protest because I think it plays well to their base and it plays well to vilifying opposition.

00:29:42.880 But that's a dangerous game to play with the people who make your food.

00:29:47.180 Well, it is.

00:29:47.620 And, you know, it's not that farmers will want to grow less.

00:29:52.760 I mean, they have to have a bottom line that's workable, too.

00:29:55.100 The overhead on a normal farm now is in the millions of dollars.

00:30:00.380 And, you know, they've got a business to protect, a family way of life to protect.

00:30:04.720 And at some point, they're going to get mad.

00:30:06.880 And that's going to change the whole description around this.

00:30:09.920 The liberals are masters that coming out with a knockout punch and then when it doesn't land squarely, they back off and then jab away and jab away and do this stuff by stealth.

00:30:19.840 And, you know, the problem is there's nobody sitting at the cabinet table in Ottawa anymore that has a clue of what the ramifications of this are going to be.

00:30:28.360 They all get their groceries at Safeway.

00:30:29.880 They can't understand why we just don't get more stuff at Safeway.

00:30:32.520 And that'll take care of it.

00:30:33.600 They're that disconnected.

00:30:34.640 I know we talk about how there are policies that can be done to, say, negatively affect Alberta and the liberals don't really care because they don't really have seats out there.

00:30:44.020 This is something that I guess.

00:30:45.160 I think that if I could butt in, I think that's typical of rural Canada, period.

00:30:50.000 And that's what I was going to ask.

00:30:51.260 Is this an extension of that?

00:30:53.400 Well, I think there's a certain amount of political envy here that they never will have a toehold.

00:30:57.640 And this just underscores why they won't.

00:30:59.980 And they don't care.

00:31:01.100 Two percent of Canadians call themselves farmers.

00:31:03.680 They don't care.

00:31:06.280 You know, there's just not enough votes to make a difference there.

00:31:08.700 I mean, they'll bring in far more immigrants.

00:31:11.320 And I'm not against immigration, but they'll bring in far more immigrants and give them the right to vote right away.

00:31:15.000 And that'll offset anything a farmer's going to do. 1.00

00:31:16.780 And I guess the question becomes then, do regular folks either intellectually see this issue differently and therefore side with the farmers and say, I don't care for this ban, for this fertilizer reduction voluntary policy or whatever I'm supposed to call it?

00:31:34.180 Or do we wait until regular folks see it happening in their wallets and go, oh, wow, this is dinging us?

00:31:40.640 Well, by the time they see it in their wallets, it's too late.

00:31:43.980 Right.

00:31:44.160 And that's that's the concern.

00:31:45.840 We either had this runaway train off now or we watch it go over the cliff and then try to build it back again afterwards.

00:31:51.700 And that's that's always far more difficult.

00:31:54.860 When I became Ag Minister, we had a mess to clean up all the way across.

00:31:58.500 We had a farm debt mediation board that we finally disbanded because we didn't need it anymore.

00:32:03.300 Farmers were making money.

00:32:04.380 Indeed, that's there's talk of that coming back now.

00:32:06.940 And that's that's just unfortunate because then you rely on government grants and government programs in order to cover this.

00:32:13.040 What I can't understand with the provincial level of governments at the ag sector, why they aren't screaming loudly, because when this hits as it does and we know it's going to be a bite to farmers.

00:32:24.940 There's a business risk program, one of them called AgriStability, that uses a rolling Olympic average to figure out where a farmer lost money in which year.

00:32:34.620 And then the government has to pony up that difference.

00:32:36.820 And 40 percent of that actual cost will come from the farm or from the provincial coffers.

00:32:41.800 So this is going to be billions of dollars, like tens of billions of dollars, if this thing hits the fan like we think it will, that provincial governments are going to have to pony up 40 percent of.

00:32:52.260 And they don't have it.

00:32:53.260 Wow.

00:32:55.420 You know, as I said in the lead in, it's like we can talk about all these all the minutia of what the fertilizer does with different crop and everything.

00:33:03.120 And it's like, OK, it goes over my head.

00:33:04.740 I don't understand the details.

00:33:05.640 But then when you really sort of expand what you're talking about, I mean, you're saying this is going to affect affect everything.

00:33:10.480 I wasn't even thinking of, you know, ballooning provincial budgets.

00:33:13.940 Oh, absolutely.

00:33:14.940 I mean, they're going to that's what I said.

00:33:16.440 They love to announce a program that will be administered by the province.

00:33:19.500 The province takes a 40 percent hit and the feds go, well, you know, we just we just.

00:33:23.660 Transferred this to the provinces.

00:33:25.640 And all they're doing is passing literally not passing the buck.

00:33:29.520 The scope of this is really remarkable.

00:33:31.120 It's something that seems to know no end.

00:33:33.960 So hopefully the actual proposed restrictions will see an end soon, because the more experts speak out on it, the more people are concerned.

00:33:41.020 Jerry Ritz, thanks so much for joining us today for your expertise on this.

00:33:44.760 Really appreciated it.

00:33:45.500 Yeah.

00:33:46.120 Yeah.

00:33:46.340 Thank you for having me on, Anthony.

00:33:48.180 And stay on this.

00:33:49.280 I mean, we've just got to keep hammering away.

00:33:51.340 This is a political move, not a pragmatic move.

00:33:53.620 This is not going to enhance food production in this country.

00:33:55.900 It's going to harm it.

00:33:56.900 And we need to have people realize that.

00:33:59.200 Consumers realize that.

00:34:00.760 That their wallets are what's going to end up paying for this.

00:34:03.700 All the best.

00:34:04.460 Thanks, Jerry.

00:34:05.440 Thank you, sir.

00:34:06.140 Full Comment is a post-media podcast.

00:34:08.920 I'm Anthony Fury.

00:34:10.040 This episode was produced by Andre Pru with theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:34:14.020 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:34:16.500 You can subscribe to Full Comment on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, and Amazon Music.

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00:34:27.820 Thanks for listening.

Full Comment - August 15, 2022

“This is a hill to die on” – the looming fight against Liberal fertilizer rules

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