Full Comment - Truckers rip the mask off the COVID consensus

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00:01:17.800 Hi, I'm Anthony Fury.

00:01:19.060 Thanks for joining us for the latest episode of Full Comment.

00:01:21.800 It has been a wild couple of weeks in Canadian news, politics, and COVID rules developments.

00:01:27.700 Provinces are dropping pandemic restrictions like it's hot, the Conservatives ditch their

00:01:32.100 leader, and the Truckers' Convoy made its way across the nation to Parliament Hill, where

00:01:37.120 they remain.

00:01:38.280 There's a lot of division out there, both in terms of what people think about what's

00:01:42.120 going on and what should happen next, but also about what actually is going on, what

00:01:46.640 has gone on with all of these various developments, with what's happening with the Truckers' Convoy

00:01:51.480 on the ground.

00:01:52.600 It's quite something to see just basic disagreement about some of the basic facts.

00:01:58.620 Well, our next guest has been on the ground pretty much every day for everything that's

00:02:02.860 been going on in Ottawa, joining us to break it all down for us, Rupa Subramania joins

00:02:07.860 us now.

00:02:08.320 She's written for the Wall Street Journal, Foreign Policy Magazine, and she's now a

00:02:11.480 regular columnist with the National Post.

00:02:13.660 Rupa, welcome.

00:02:14.240 It's great to have you.

00:02:15.680 Well, it's great to be here, Anthony.

00:02:17.720 Yeah, and I want to preface our conversation here because things move very fast right now.

00:02:22.180 Day by day, it's different.

00:02:23.100 We are recording this right now on February 3rd, Thursday, February 3rd, if anybody wants

00:02:28.260 to know what the sort of snapshot in time is, what we're talking about here, because

00:02:31.540 of course, things we discuss could change very quickly, day by day, and they've already

00:02:36.660 changed.

00:02:37.300 I mean, wow.

00:02:38.200 You know, I remember just a few weeks ago, you know, I've been writing on COVID for a

00:02:42.100 long time.

00:02:42.460 You have as well.

00:02:43.220 We were talking about Ontario science table numbers and charts, and all of a sudden, bam!

00:02:48.000 Instead, we're talking about this, these kind of rapid changes that have suddenly swept

00:02:52.720 the nation.

00:02:53.140 Right, so I live right here, right downtown in the Byward market, and I have spent more

00:03:03.400 than two decades in Ottawa and in Canada, and I've never seen anything like this.

00:03:09.620 I didn't expect the protests to be as big as they've become.

00:03:15.880 And, you know, I spent the weekend, as you mentioned, I've spent pretty much every day

00:03:23.640 going to the protests.

00:03:26.140 I spent more time on the weekend than I have in the last couple of days.

00:03:30.500 And it's been very interesting, Anthony.

00:03:32.800 I have seen, you know, trucks parked on Wellington Street, Sussex Drive.

00:03:41.280 They've occupied large chunks of the downtown area.

00:03:46.720 I've also seen lots and lots of people descend on the nation's capital.

00:03:53.040 Some estimates put these crowds at 8,000 to 10,000 people.

00:03:58.520 And it's been remarkable.

00:04:01.800 I haven't seen anything like this.

00:04:03.400 And, you know, I've seen a cross-section of peoples.

00:04:08.140 Basically, you know, this is Canada, really.

00:04:12.080 I've seen a cross-section of Canada.

00:04:15.680 Everyone from the young, the old, high school students, families, parents bringing their kids,

00:04:25.820 people of color, all kinds of people of various ethnicities.

00:04:29.880 I've seen Indo-Canadians, Sikh Canadians, Chinese Canadians, Black Canadians, you name it.

00:04:35.480 They're all there opposing vaccine mandates, restrictions in lockdowns, and, you know,

00:04:45.500 and want to make their voices heard.

00:04:47.800 And it's not quite the white supremacist gathering that perhaps I, even I may have been expecting,

00:04:55.220 given that all of the news coverage leading up to the protests suggested that this was just a bunch of white supremacists gathering.

00:05:04.440 I posed this question to several of these people I spoke to over the weekend.

00:05:09.440 I asked to see a Canadian, what do you think of the fact that they're saying that this is a white supremacist gathering?

00:05:15.640 How do you explain your presence?

00:05:17.360 And he just rolled his eyes and he said, I oppose the vaccine mandates.

00:05:22.100 And in Quebec, we've had it really, really bad.

00:05:25.920 I can't go to my local Costco.

00:05:29.020 We do 80% of our groceries at Costco and I'm not allowed to go in because I refuse to get vaccinated.

00:05:36.960 I mean, it's quite something, the rules around the world.

00:05:40.220 One of the things that I find almost embarrassing if I was to be traveling abroad would be to acknowledge I was from Canada.

00:05:46.300 It used to be that you put the Canada flag on your backpack and then everybody's, oh, cool.

00:05:49.920 I love Canadians.

00:05:50.680 Thank God you're not Americans and so forth. 1.00

00:05:52.180 But now I find like even sometimes corresponding with people or having family and friends who live abroad or people traveling abroad and coming back.

00:05:59.840 And it's always like other places don't really have the things that we have.

00:06:03.920 Like, yes, some places have some of the things, but there's very few countries in the world that have the combination of very aggressive COVID rules that we have here in Canada.

00:06:12.960 You know, you look in the United States and it used to be they just say, oh, Florida, because Florida was the first to step away from all of this and all Republicans.

00:06:20.720 And now it's like, no, some of the most aggressive things set against these rules can be Democrats, can be left-leaning politicians.

00:06:28.460 The acting mayor of Boston, who was a Democrat, she gave a press conference.

00:06:34.020 She kind of apologized for the remarks after.

00:06:36.460 She's a black lady. 1.00

00:06:37.500 And she said, you know, my people have endured slavery in the past.

00:06:41.840 We're not going to endure it again.

00:06:43.140 And she was talking about the vaccine mandates.

00:06:44.680 And whatever you think of that comment, right or wrong, agree or disagree, it's like remarkable that that's the kind of stuff that Democrats are saying in the U.S.

00:06:51.660 Exactly. I personally think this is my view and people can, you know, are free to disagree with that.

00:06:59.580 But I think that our image has taken a beating during the course of the pandemic, whether it is our health care system, whether it is our restrictions, which have been among some of the worst.

00:07:12.620 We've had some of the worst restrictions, barring Australia and New Zealand, of course, they were even worse.

00:07:18.800 But, you know, if you look at school closures, for example, we were, you know, the only major advanced country with schools still shut in early January.

00:07:31.860 I think it I think if I'm not mistaken, I think it was Ukraine and a couple of other countries that still had their schools closed.

00:07:42.680 But but, you know, just think about the damaging effect this has had had on children.

00:07:48.160 I don't have kids, but I can still relate to that.

00:07:51.640 I have small kids and I got to say, I've gotten increasingly frustrated over the months as the very rigid rules that our children have had to endure when we have always known, even when when COVID was more severe Delta variant 12 months ago, it's always been acknowledged.

00:08:07.540 I spoke to the head of Sick Kids Hospital a long time ago in the pandemic, and he said, thankfully, one of the silver linings, if there can be a silver lining, is that children are spared.

00:08:16.040 The worst of it, it proves milder.

00:08:17.580 Back when Facebook was banning posts for misinformation, if someone dared to write COVID is just the flu, well, pediatricians were telling me that, yes, it is actually much worse than the flu in seniors.

00:08:29.300 But when it comes to kids, it is less severe than the flu.

00:08:32.360 Leading pediatricians working in the top hospitals in Canada.

00:08:35.560 That's what they were telling me many months ago.

00:08:38.100 And yet successively, they said my kids hockey game has to be shut down.

00:08:42.120 And we saw the reports.

00:08:43.600 I mean, I know, you know, all of these reports that showed the mental health crises that teenagers and youth were enduring, all of these problems, the suicide attempts.

00:08:51.400 And it was just like, good grief.

00:08:53.200 I mean, that's the stuff parents were getting really upset about.

00:08:57.320 Well, absolutely.

00:08:58.460 The damaging effects of this pandemic, especially on children, you know, is something that we're going to be dealing with for for a very, very long time.

00:09:08.560 And I don't know where the accountability is.

00:09:12.720 I mean, we can we can vote our politicians out of power.

00:09:15.520 So that's one option.

00:09:17.200 But who's going to hold the experts to account?

00:09:20.400 You know, how do we hold them to account?

00:09:22.080 You know, these a lot of these policies were driven by expert advice.

00:09:25.840 We were told, follow the science.

00:09:27.720 And unfortunately, many of these measures had no scientific basis.

00:09:32.500 But all that it's resulted in is, you know, a very damaging future for our kids and for our youth.

00:09:39.940 And everyone is just really, really tired, I think, at this point.

00:09:43.820 And in a sense, that fatigue, that tiredness is also captured by this truckers movement.

00:09:50.920 You know, it's not it's not necessarily even about, yes, a lot of it is about opposing vaccine mandates.

00:09:58.680 But a lot of people who show up there are just tired.

00:10:01.960 They just want to move on.

00:10:03.280 And are we really going to be moving on?

00:10:05.820 I don't see that happening because we're still under restrictions at 50 percent capacity,

00:10:11.380 while most of the rest of the world is, you know, just getting rid of restrictions, all restrictions.

00:10:17.440 And they're staring at the end of the pandemic.

00:10:21.980 They're looking at the light, looking at the light at the end of the tunnel.

00:10:25.880 By March here in Ontario, I think, in my in my in my view, we will only be back to where we were in the fall.

00:10:34.400 So this gradual easing.

00:10:36.020 Wow, you think so?

00:10:37.320 Yeah.

00:10:37.860 That's scary stuff, although you may be right.

00:10:40.320 If you look at the roadmap, now, I could be mistaken and feel free to correct me.

00:10:44.820 But based on the roadmap that I looked at a couple of weeks ago, you know, it did seem like we were not going to be that much different from where we were in the fall.

00:10:53.660 The point is, you know, you've got to compare that with where all of these other countries are.

00:10:59.520 Right.

00:10:59.740 Which is which is basically back to a pre 2020 world.

00:11:04.300 We're still in the 2020 world to some extent.

00:11:07.480 And and that, I think, has to be recognized.

00:11:12.860 It has to be dealt with.

00:11:14.240 It has to be debated.

00:11:15.380 We have to ask, why are we so afraid to come out of the pandemic?

00:11:20.000 What's holding us back?

00:11:21.440 And, you know, all these conversations we're having, I mean, we're obviously doing retread of all these previous numbers.

00:11:26.740 I'm referencing studies that we've known for like well over a year now.

00:11:29.900 But I guess the frustration is, I think what a lot of people are saying and why, yes, the convoy began with a frustration about a trucker's vaccine mandate, one very specific thing.

00:11:39.320 But to your point, it's become a broader symbol.

00:11:41.600 It's ballooned into so much more is because, yes, for so many of us internalized a year ago, the harms of lockdowns internalized a year ago.

00:11:48.620 OK, fine, you know, people have one dose, two dose vaccine.

00:11:51.420 All right, let's get on with the show.

00:11:52.800 And yet there's so there's a there's a real split in that there are a lot of people who are who are not accepting that, who have been downplaying or denying the harms of lockdowns.

00:12:01.280 And people are just frustrated.

00:12:02.540 I want to read to you a now infamous tweet by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau posted on February 1st when he said today in the House, members of Parliament unanimously condemned the anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, anti-black racism, homophobia and transphobia.

00:12:18.140 Yeah, that we've just listed all that we've seen on display in Ottawa over the past number of days.

00:12:23.740 Together, let's keep working to make Canada more inclusive.

00:12:26.340 This is a tweet that has been mocked all around the world.

00:12:29.300 Not, of course, not because anybody would disagree that those list of things are bad things and we don't want those things in our society.

00:12:36.760 But like, come on, like, really?

00:12:39.480 Like, maybe I'm not I don't know where he's getting the transphobia and homophobia from.

00:12:43.820 Maybe there's one person who said one inappropriate remark or had one sign amongst it all.

00:12:47.780 I'm sure you could cherry pick and find all of that. 0.98

00:12:50.140 The anti-Semitism, I guess he means that that one nutjob loser who was on the periphery with the Nazi flag. 0.97

00:12:56.000 We still don't know what that guy was all about. 0.88

00:12:57.940 By all means, say those things aren't appropriate.

00:12:59.600 But he's he's he's obviously just trying to characterize all of these things as very massive, huge and the primary motivation of what's going on.

00:13:09.060 And at the same time, I saw a video of a bunch of people in a holding hands in a circle singing that song.

00:13:14.100 We are the world in like a kumbaya dance circle thing.

00:13:17.340 And that's what he's saying is this rally that you got to bring the military in for.

00:13:21.980 Yeah. No, there's a complete disconnect.

00:13:24.140 I feel between our elected officials and what is actually going on the ground.

00:13:31.000 And and, you know, to some extent, actually, you know, also the media.

00:13:36.920 Much of the reporting has been driven by, you know, folks in the media who've staked a position here.

00:13:43.460 They staked a position on this protest even before it arrived in the Capitol.

00:13:48.300 And that's telling you something. Right.

00:13:50.360 But but they also got it wrong because they said it was going to be a nothing burger.

00:13:53.460 They were laughing at them.

00:13:54.540 And they said, oh, look, you know, there's 18 trucks or what have you.

00:13:57.580 And you go, well, if there's only 18 trucks, I don't see what you're complaining about.

00:14:00.680 But that was how they framed it.

00:14:01.940 And of course, they suddenly had to flip once they realized that that was not the case.

00:14:06.620 So, well, yeah, what's what's interesting, Anthony, actually, you know, before I forget this, because I do, you know, it addresses something that you mentioned regarding the prime minister's comments yesterday.

00:14:18.500 You know, he's starring everybody with the same brush, whereas what what one sees, if you just you know, if you live in Ottawa, I urge you to go and actually talk to some of those people.

00:14:30.940 They're not bad people.

00:14:31.920 So the fact of the matter is, remember, Prime Minister Trudeau went out of his way to support the farmers protests in India, if you remember that back in December 2020.

00:14:44.440 And he basically, you know, he said, we stand with the farmers of India.

00:14:50.420 We're very concerned about the situation there and so on and so forth.

00:14:55.060 And the Indian government did not take too kindly to that intervention.

00:15:00.780 What was interesting is how the Indian government played the farmers protest.

00:15:04.420 They they characterize the farmers who mostly live in the North Indian state of Punjab and they're mostly Sikh farmers.

00:15:12.620 And he and the Indian government and it's, you know, the powerful ecosystem portrayed the farmers as being tied to the Khalistan movement here in Canada and essentially portrayed them as a bunch of terrorists.

00:15:26.100 And but, you know, Prime Minister Trudeau supported the farmers protest, but he, you know, and he but he he refuses to even reach out to the protests that are happening right here in the nation's capital.

00:15:43.460 And so there's a little there's you know, there's a disconnect here, as I mentioned, our elected officials just don't seem to understand the power of what is happening on the ground.

00:15:54.800 You don't have to identify with the cause. You don't even have to agree with what they're saying.

00:15:59.460 You you know, I'm triple vaccinated. I believe in the science. I think boosters help.

00:16:04.580 I think my messages go out and get vaccinated. But but I ninety one percent of people have.

00:16:12.580 And then that remaining nine percent, you know, there's this bizarre people say, why are they all holding us back?

00:16:17.680 And then you're also like, well, OK, well, why are you letting that be your mental hang up for why we are being out back?

00:16:23.360 Like if you're triple vaccinated and you believe in it, just go live your life.

00:16:27.180 And in a world where Omicron is so highly transmissible and studies have shown at least two studies, I think one of them from the UK show that its effectiveness wanes in about 10 to 12 weeks,

00:16:41.940 which leaves the question, which raises the question, are we going to be on a carousel of boosters?

00:16:48.020 Are we? And so then how do you then how do you justify this mandate?

00:16:53.020 You know, are we going to keep updating these mandates every 12 to 15 weeks?

00:16:57.520 It makes no sense. But here's another point, which which is worth making, which is that, you know, we have put all of our faith here in vaccines or nothing.

00:17:11.100 And that vaccines are the only way out of this pandemic.

00:17:14.880 In fact, every every politician has said that everyone from the Greens to the NDP, to the conservatives, to to to the liberals, that vaccines are our only way out.

00:17:27.500 Now, we've had two years. A lot of stuff has happened in two years.

00:17:30.540 We've had therapeutics come on the market. We've had we have testing capabilities.

00:17:36.140 We have so much going on. We and we don't even recognize infection, immunity acquired through infection.

00:17:44.740 Why is that? I just don't get it.

00:17:47.440 If you've seen these studies coming out of the CDC, unvaccinated people who've recovered from covid continue to carry these antibodies.

00:17:58.240 And I think there's a split. There's there's talking about all the nuances and laying it on the table.

00:18:03.060 And then there's a little something called public health messaging, which has always been so blunt and so sort of, you know, this single sentence and everybody has to repeat them like mantras.

00:18:12.660 And it's like, OK, fine. I appreciate that. You need the tweet.

00:18:15.940 You need the thing to put on the billboard to encourage people to stay six feet apart back when that mattered the most, you know, year and a half ago to get the vaccine when the first vaccines were rolled out.

00:18:25.080 But now they stick to these mantras when, you know, we're adults. We've been doing this for two years now.

00:18:31.040 And I thought when Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe announced that they're pretty much going to get rid of all these rules now.

00:18:36.120 I mean, he acknowledged like, look, people know how to make their risk assessments now.

00:18:40.320 It's two years into this. We've all been talking about this to no end.

00:18:43.460 People who never looked at a medical report before have read, you know, 100 different studies like, you know, we're not all going to be in 100 percent perfect agreement.

00:18:50.700 But let's just figure it out. We can proceed accordingly now. Respect us like adults.

00:18:55.100 Absolutely. So that's an important point. We've mostly been treated here.

00:19:00.860 There's been a very paternalistic approach to our to how we've handled the pandemic here in Canada.

00:19:08.220 A lot of European countries have, you know, as opposed to European countries.

00:19:13.440 And that's that's a good benchmark because they're they're more like us in many ways.

00:19:20.280 And and and and and, you know, their their citizens have not been treated like their kids and they don't know what they're doing.

00:19:29.600 And, you know, what's what's also striking is I feel that most people here actually like that approach.

00:19:35.440 They like they like they like the government telling you micromanaging every detail of your life.

00:19:41.200 I do think that at some level people actually feel like they're safe if they if they if the government does this.

00:19:49.440 So it goes both ways. And yeah, I mean, I just I just find that the public messaging has been poor.

00:19:58.500 If you remember, if you remember, in in in in December over the holidays, the someone from the science table said the vaccine effectiveness is melting like snow.

00:20:10.520 Now, what does that tell you to tell that to someone who's double?

00:20:14.200 I know there were people who were panicking hearing that they were panicking.

00:20:19.040 Right. And I and I actually, you know, went to, you know, I listened to that interview and he didn't qualify it in any way.

00:20:25.160 He didn't you know, he could have said, look, they're not holding well against infections, but hey, look, they're still going to keep you out of the hospital against severe disease.

00:20:35.880 Had he said that, that would have been a completely different messaging.

00:20:38.680 But no, that wasn't the case. And then two weeks later, he says, yeah, it protects you against severe disease.

00:20:45.640 So, you know, it's just the public is just tired.

00:20:48.940 You know, they get they get told one thing one day and then a few days later, it's something else. 0.99

00:20:54.360 We're still we still have these, you know, idiotic measures in place of plexiglass, you know, which probably do more harm than good. 0.96

00:21:04.480 You know, and, you know, I think you're about people getting tired. 0.96

00:21:07.900 They're also getting tired of believing this sort of, quote unquote, listen to the experts mantra only because to your point about that one Ontario person talking about the melting with snow.

00:21:18.120 I mean, people are really making up as they go along.

00:21:20.240 We've now seen the track record.

00:21:21.500 These are familiar faces. They just do total flip flops, reversals on things.

00:21:25.820 I don't just mean the old example. Teresa Tam says masks don't work.

00:21:28.920 Now she says, yes, you've all got to wear them.

00:21:30.560 I mean, just on on so much.

00:21:32.280 It just seems like so many people are just making things up as they go along.

00:21:35.920 They're trying random ideas, random proposals.

00:21:38.900 I mean, we know none of this is original public health protocol.

00:21:42.560 People from the outset, like Dr. Sunitra Gupta, have just been saying, well, lockdowns is not a thing you do.

00:21:46.580 You know, if you've been teaching public health class in university for 20 years, you've never once talked about the idea of lockdown.

00:21:51.460 So we don't do that.

00:21:52.640 And I credit her.

00:21:53.340 She has stayed firm in that vision, whereas others are just flipping and flopping nonstop.

00:21:57.820 And I think this brings us down, brings us back to, you know, what's been going on in Canada, both the protests in Ottawa.

00:22:02.980 And of course, they're going to other parts of the country all over now.

00:22:06.160 People are just saying enough already to this constant kind of revolving door of random rules that that that as Omicron gets milder, as we're confirmed by public health, it is as, you know, more and more people.

00:22:20.120 Obviously, most people, the vast majority are double vaccinated.

00:22:22.860 We're getting to about 50 percent triple vaccinated.

00:22:25.320 Just stop with the revolving door of wheels.

00:22:27.680 Now, it's like the people who have gotten so used to micromanaging our lives, they can't stop doing it.

00:22:33.980 See, it's there's a very simple solution to this.

00:22:37.220 You want to get you want to, you know, basically you want to see these protesters go home.

00:22:44.380 You want the truckers to stop this.

00:22:46.320 The very simple solution to this.

00:22:48.460 Say we're ending all restrictions.

00:22:50.520 Yeah.

00:22:50.700 And most people would be happy with that, I think.

00:22:53.880 You know, I don't know about the polls, but certainly conversations with people across the board.

00:23:01.240 People are just very tired and want their lives back.

00:23:05.080 And there's been a huge loss in, you know, credibility.

00:23:11.820 The public has lost faith in people.

00:23:14.240 Our elected officials are experts.

00:23:16.460 Experts often get it wrong, by the way.

00:23:18.440 But here we've treated our experts as basically, you know, that everything that they're saying is the gospel truth and that you cannot question them.

00:23:29.000 Or if you question them, you're an anti-vaxxer or you're promoting anti-vax sentiments or you're.

00:23:36.280 And some of these things aren't even expertise things.

00:23:38.280 I mean, I have never gone on any radio show or in my columns written about genome sequencing a virus because I would look like an idiot because I don't know how genome sequencing works and I don't know how to do it.

00:23:48.900 But when I say my kids' school shouldn't be closed, you say, well, Fury, how dare you? 0.93

00:23:53.940 You're not an expert.

00:23:54.800 Who's an expert in whether or not a school should be open or not?

00:23:59.180 I mean, this is about us having a say in our communities, our neighborhoods, our society, ourselves as parents, as taxpayers, as voters.

00:24:07.300 I mean, genome sequencing or the developments of vaccines and so forth.

00:24:11.220 I don't know those technical matters, but nobody has the right to tell me that I'm not an expert to talk about my daily life.

00:24:18.740 Yeah, that's a very dangerous path to go down on because it's very, then that just shuts any conversation and debate, right?

00:24:31.500 We're just supposed to blindly accept what someone tells you because they're the experts and we tell you what's good for you.

00:24:39.640 But no, I think, you know, in an open and free society like ours, we need to be able to challenge our experts.

00:24:47.120 We need to be able to question them and they should be willing to be willing to open themselves to that.

00:24:54.280 Right. You know, and the best way is to is to be transparent, inform the public, you know, and not talk down to them.

00:25:07.660 But unfortunately, what we've had is this talking down approach.

00:25:11.620 It's been very authoritarian almost at various points.

00:25:15.320 And that hasn't been helpful.

00:25:18.180 And, you know, people are tired everywhere.

00:25:21.860 So it's not just Canada.

00:25:23.420 But I find that the public response here has been, you know, quite extraordinary, you know, or has been different from other places that I keep track of.

00:25:39.040 Um, it's been paternalistic.

00:25:41.540 It's, it's treated as like children.

00:25:43.840 Um, it's talked down to us.

00:25:45.940 There's been mixed messaging.

00:25:48.400 Um, and, um, and, and, and there's been no accountability so far.

00:25:53.180 Uh, and that's, uh, that's, that's very unfortunate.

00:25:56.480 We'll be back with more full comment after these quick messages.

00:25:59.000 Well, on speaking of accountability, and I want to bring this back to what you're seeing on the ground in Ottawa, because I guess a lot of people making their appearances there, whether they are more the traditional truckers convoy.

00:26:12.180 Or as you mentioned that, that, that diverse and broad constituency of people who have more, more sort of wider frustrations and grievances in all of this.

00:26:20.260 One thing that we've been told is Ottawa is a city under siege.

00:26:23.680 And we've been told that there is, there is, uh, improper things being done to the citizens of Ottawa by people who are converging, uh, in the city for the protests.

00:26:32.980 And you're hearing conflicting stories about all of this here.

00:26:36.840 I mean, Rideau Center, the largest mall I lived in Ottawa, uh, for a while, it's a nice mall.

00:26:41.320 It had to shut down for a week, but then I'm calling my friends and I'm going, well, what streets?

00:26:45.460 I don't know.

00:26:46.020 Well, you can still get to the parking garage.

00:26:47.900 Okay.

00:26:48.160 The LRT's train still works.

00:26:49.780 The LRT stops right at the mall.

00:26:51.320 I take the point.

00:26:52.160 There's one entranceway that's there.

00:26:53.820 I also take the point that some people were going in without masks on, more than the security guards could deal with.

00:26:59.460 Oh, run for your lives.

00:27:00.480 But otherwise, I'm like, you don't actually need to close this mall, I don't think.

00:27:04.740 So what is your sense of the idea of a city under siege?

00:27:09.360 Um, it's, it's strange.

00:27:11.580 I know you live in the epicenter of in the byword market.

00:27:13.580 So I know you hear those horns and they actually have been frustrating for you, the nonstop honking.

00:27:18.060 Well, it's, I mean, it's, you know, I, I've lived in, I've lived overseas where protests and, uh, you know, honking is, is just a part of everyday life.

00:27:29.540 Um, and, uh, so for me, this, so I, I, I, I get it, you know, everybody's tolerance level for these things is different.

00:27:36.820 So maybe mine is, you know, definitely I'm used to this sort of thing, but, um, but the, uh, the mall.

00:27:46.060 So that's interesting.

00:27:46.920 You know, why are they closed?

00:27:48.240 I walked around yesterday in the market and I went down on Elgin, I, uh, walked all those streets and all the restaurants are all open, um, barring a handful of restaurants that are closed.

00:28:01.440 And some of these, uh, um, establishments are in office buildings that are closed.

00:28:07.140 Um, and, and, and a couple of them are right where the truckers are parked.

00:28:13.280 And so I, I understand from, you know, it would be hard for them to open, open them up, given all of the noise from the honking, but by and large, most, most restaurants, most independent businesses are open people.

00:28:26.760 I've, I saw people dining, uh, dining in, I saw people shopping.

00:28:31.340 Um, so I'm not quite sure why the mall would be closed.

00:28:35.360 Um, except for the reason that, you know, when I was at the mall on Saturday, um, and I did, you know, take a video of this.

00:28:43.280 And I posted it on Twitter.

00:28:44.780 There were a lot of people at the mall.

00:28:47.240 Um, keep in mind that on Saturday, the city was still, um, a lockdown, right?

00:28:52.800 We were still under lockdown.

00:28:54.240 The province was still under lockdown.

00:28:56.140 There were, there was not a restaurant to go to.

00:28:58.800 There was not a washroom, a public washroom to, to go to if you were part of the protests.

00:29:04.060 Um, and, and, and so where, where were these people going to go?

00:29:07.600 Obviously the mall isn't, you know, it's an obvious place to, uh, go to grab, grab a bite.

00:29:14.640 Um, you know, from the, there's a farm boy at the, at the mall.

00:29:18.480 So I saw a lot of people there at the farm boy grabbing, but, and, and they did great business,

00:29:23.340 by the way.

00:29:24.680 What's extraordinary about this is that I've never seen the Rideau Center this busy.

00:29:28.960 Um, and, um, yes, uh, you know, they were violating the mask mandate, the, the, the,

00:29:35.760 the, the mask law.

00:29:37.360 They were, uh, the horror, but, you know, but keep in mind, remember we were supposed to

00:29:42.280 get rid of the masks in a little while, right?

00:29:44.460 Wasn't that supposed to happen, uh, uh, this month or next month, if I'm not mistaken?

00:29:49.840 March 28th, January 17th was the date the vaccine passport in Ontario was supposed to

00:29:53.840 end, uh, and obviously didn't come to fruition.

00:29:55.960 And then March 28th is the day the mask mandate is supposed to end.

00:29:58.900 It's still on the books.

00:30:00.080 Yeah.

00:30:00.380 So, um, so it's a mixed picture.

00:30:02.380 So I, I, I get it.

00:30:04.160 I mean, there are, there are people who are inconvenienced.

00:30:06.960 There are businesses, uh, which have, which have, uh, shut down either because they're

00:30:11.800 very close to the protest, uh, or right there.

00:30:15.060 So for example, I'll give you an example.

00:30:17.120 The Metropolitan Restaurant in Ottawa is, it was closed yesterday when I walked by the place,

00:30:21.900 uh, but a block down, uh, the Clarendon social were open.

00:30:27.100 So, and, and they're not that far from the truckers.

00:30:30.080 So it's, it's, it, it, it, you know, I guess it's everybody's comfort level, but by and

00:30:36.160 large, I find most businesses in Ottawa, in the downtown area are open for business.

00:30:40.780 So what's going on with local residents and their interactions with the protesters?

00:30:45.240 Because I've definitely, I've tried to reach out to all my friends who I know live in downtown

00:30:48.700 Ottawa and a number of them have, have gone and spoken to these people and they found usually

00:30:52.640 been a productive, positive conversations.

00:30:55.020 My friends who are supportive of the cause in terms of want all restrictions gone, they're,

00:30:59.920 they're upset with the honking and they've said, Oh, can you please reduce the honking or

00:31:03.080 what have you?

00:31:03.840 And then, you know, they've had their conversation, but they said it was a polite conversation.

00:31:07.180 They were happy with it.

00:31:08.000 Then there are other anecdotes about kind of abusive stuff going on, uh, in the streets

00:31:12.580 of Ottawa, people hollering, uh, you know, inappropriate, offensive things at people, a couple of windows,

00:31:17.860 uh, being smashed.

00:31:19.380 I mean, what, what is your take on that?

00:31:21.760 Um, obviously those are not good.

00:31:24.020 Uh, nobody should, uh, you know, have to deal with, uh, you know, that sort of thing, but

00:31:30.000 look, a protest like this is going to be messy.

00:31:32.880 It's going to bring, um, uh, you know, it's going to get all kinds of people attached to

00:31:38.360 it.

00:31:38.640 Right.

00:31:39.360 Um, I can't think of a single protest where, where everyone was well-behaved and nothing

00:31:44.920 bad happened, but keep in mind, this is an important perspective.

00:31:48.480 I think these protests have been going on for almost a week.

00:31:52.120 Uh, and Ottawa police say there, there, there hasn't been a single incident of, uh, uh, there

00:31:59.000 hasn't been a single violent incident so far.

00:32:01.560 Uh, that's quite extraordinary.

00:32:03.160 You know, two hours, two and a half hours from Ottawa, Montreal, which sees protests all

00:32:08.300 the time.

00:32:09.200 Um, riot police are called in frequently, this tear gassing, this, um, uh, you know, it's,

00:32:15.660 it's violent.

00:32:16.440 Uh, people are smashing store, uh, storefront windows.

00:32:20.040 They're looting.

00:32:21.540 I haven't seen anything like that here.

00:32:23.760 Um, you're going to get, you're going to get, it's, it's, it's, it's unavoidable,

00:32:27.960 unfortunately, because how are you going to police, uh, if you, you know, if you're, if

00:32:32.860 you're the protest organizer, for example, how are you, I mean, you can, you can, you

00:32:37.440 can, you can, you can, you can urge people to be, um, uh, peaceful and, uh, and not resort

00:32:42.820 to, uh, the sort of activity, but it's, it's hard.

00:32:46.460 It's hard to, uh, to, to, to convince everybody you can't, it's impossible.

00:32:51.200 And anybody who's been to any protest, anyone who's organized any protest would attest to

00:32:56.840 this.

00:32:57.640 What do you make of this sort of logistical underpinnings of this protest?

00:33:01.840 And that I know it's, it's very well organized.

00:33:03.800 Obviously it's, it's funded in terms of the GoFundMe page hit the $10 million.

00:33:07.220 And I know there are a couple of hotels that they, they stay at most of them sort of more

00:33:12.100 combined.

00:33:12.600 The protesters, they have like an operation center.

00:33:15.100 Uh, they have sort of, they move food around like they, they, they cook, you know, pizza ovens

00:33:19.800 that they've set up and barbecue stations and they share the food.

00:33:22.400 I understand that, uh, you know, they're, they're fairly generous with all of that, but

00:33:25.420 they have a system in place.

00:33:26.920 They kind of have their own, uh, convoy economy right now and supplies going on.

00:33:32.740 I mean, it's, it's quite almost interesting from an organizational perspective.

00:33:36.760 When there's those things that you're talking about that are more riots, they're much more

00:33:39.520 kind of flash mob scenes where there's none of that, but this one is really kind of taken

00:33:43.180 root.

00:33:43.560 Yeah, it's extraordinary.

00:33:45.480 It reminds me of protests in India and, um, and you know, this is very similar to that

00:33:51.740 where a whole economy, um, you know, is created around it.

00:33:56.620 I've seen people, uh, I've seen those pizza ovens.

00:33:59.860 I was invited myself yesterday as I was walking around, if I wanted to, um, go to one of those

00:34:05.320 stalls and get some free food.

00:34:07.360 Um, uh, they are very generous.

00:34:09.720 I've seen them feeding homeless people, um, um, and I know that they're homeless because

00:34:14.800 I live in this area and I recognize some of these homeless people.

00:34:17.760 So, uh, it's been, uh, it's been very interesting and, um, um, I, you know, uh, the logistics and

00:34:25.940 infrastructure, uh, what I understand is that there are a large team of volunteers, uh, helping

00:34:32.520 out.

00:34:32.980 I've seen, uh, them bringing food to the truckers.

00:34:36.460 I've seen, uh, yesterday I saw a bunch of people, uh, wheeling around these suitcases

00:34:41.160 with clothes.

00:34:42.300 And, um, and I've seen these, um, um, uh, diesel being, uh, wheeled around.

00:34:48.140 Um, it's just a constant stream of volunteers pitching in to help.

00:34:52.680 It's really interesting to see officials in Ottawa, and I don't necessarily mean federal

00:34:57.180 officials, but Ottawa city councilors, the mayor, the police chief get very frustrated,

00:35:01.600 call for various forms of action.

00:35:03.200 We want to seize their funds.

00:35:04.500 We want to bring in the army, uh, all these different requests.

00:35:07.220 And, and I know you said, you know, there's an easy way to deal with this.

00:35:09.800 They're saying we want the mandates and well, then, and the mandates.

00:35:12.940 And I know, uh, so many politicians or people just to post this would say, well, that's just

00:35:16.620 sort of, you know, negotiating in a way that we don't want to negotiate.

00:35:19.240 It's a sign that they're winning.

00:35:20.540 Uh, we don't want to cave to them.

00:35:21.880 But the thing is, you know, there are other protests where, where people do big protests and

00:35:25.940 they have their list of requests.

00:35:27.200 And it's quite something like the specific requests, say the last time there was a quote unquote

00:35:31.480 occupation and I remember when there was occupy Ottawa, occupy wall street, of course, occupy

00:35:35.760 Ottawa 10 years ago.

00:35:36.800 And the requests were these grandiose things about reforming the financial system, et cetera.

00:35:40.700 And you're like, I don't think this can just be done in a day guys.

00:35:43.320 Sorry.

00:35:43.560 It's not going to happen.

00:35:44.740 Uh, so, you know, you have to wrap this up soon.

00:35:47.700 The interesting thing with the request of end the mandates is to your point, it's happening

00:35:51.860 in other countries.

00:35:52.600 It's happening in some parts of Canada.

00:35:54.700 Public health officials are pretty much saying, well, we've had Dr. Bonnie Henry, uh, Dr. 0.99

00:35:59.740 Kieran Moore, Dr. Eileen Davila in Toronto, all saying, and many others, I could name like

00:36:03.940 eight of them saying, we need to treat this like influenza now moving forward, clearly talking

00:36:08.760 about lifting, uh, the various rules out there, public opinion showing they want to lift it.

00:36:12.920 So just saying, okay, fine.

00:36:15.040 We'll end the mandates.

00:36:15.700 It's not really caving to the protesters.

00:36:18.020 It's not appeasing their demands.

00:36:19.700 It's not even setting a precedent because the demand I feel is actually a really mild and

00:36:23.920 moderate demand.

00:36:25.920 It is, it is.

00:36:27.380 Um, and, uh, you know, eventually, I mean, there, I think it's political at this point, uh,

00:36:34.240 you know, when even some of our public health officials are, have questioned the need for

00:36:39.200 these mandates, it's really political at this point.

00:36:42.560 And, uh, and, and, and, you know, they, the mandates will have to end at some point.

00:36:50.520 Uh, why not just do them now?

00:36:52.420 You know, what are we waiting for?

00:36:53.920 Uh, most of us are vaccinated.

00:36:55.560 The booster booster rate in Ontario is about 50%, which is, um, you know, that that's, that's

00:37:01.920 also worth pointing out by the way that, um, you know, we've, uh, um, uh, what's the term

00:37:08.160 we've, uh, it's, it's flattened, flattened at 50%, uh, quite early, um, quite early compared

00:37:15.100 to where we were on the, um, two dose vaccine series.

00:37:18.660 Uh, we flattened at closer to 80%.

00:37:21.440 So that's telling me something, um, you know, why are we flattened at 50% so early compared

00:37:27.180 to 80%?

00:37:28.340 Um, back in the summer, uh, is it vaccine fatigue?

00:37:32.100 Is it vaccine skepticism?

00:37:33.660 People are tired.

00:37:34.740 People are acknowledging natural immunity.

00:37:37.220 Uh, there could be all kinds of reasons for this.

00:37:39.380 And, um, so the, the mandates, I mean, it goes back to what I was saying earlier, uh, with

00:37:44.660 Omicron, a highly transmissible variant vaccine effectiveness, uh, it's been shown that it,

00:37:49.720 it, it wanes within 15 weeks.

00:37:52.060 So are we going to keep getting a booster?

00:37:54.280 Uh, we, uh, is for the general population, right?

00:37:57.200 Uh, that's, that's a very important question.

00:37:59.480 I've read, you know, I've, I've reached out to some scientists and they can't really, they

00:38:04.100 can't really guarantee anything.

00:38:05.800 They don't know.

00:38:06.940 They don't know.

00:38:07.600 So the vaccine mandate really, at this point, in my opinion, by the way, I supported vaccine

00:38:14.260 passports in the fall because I foolishly thought, I foolishly thought that, um, that

00:38:20.640 would be our way out of the pandemic.

00:38:22.620 I, I, I didn't think that, uh, Doug Ford would be locking us down again at the first

00:38:27.940 sign of trouble.

00:38:28.980 Um, and, and.

00:38:30.200 Well, that's so interesting because there's so many, you know, there's so many people in

00:38:33.680 your situation who would have, who would say the same thing.

00:38:36.620 And I think that's why we've seen such an aggressive, uh, you know, multidimensional

00:38:40.440 pushback right now, like the vaccine passport system.

00:38:43.220 I know in Ontario and it's similar in the rest of Canada, Doug Ford explicitly said the

00:38:47.000 social contract to this is we do the vaccine passport, no more lockdowns.

00:38:52.960 And that was not true.

00:38:55.040 No, all the business associations, Canadian chamber of commerce, those types of groups,

00:38:58.420 they all got behind, uh, the vaccine passport.

00:39:01.500 Cause I know the government through their back channels was like, come on guys, you know,

00:39:04.380 no, we're going to take care of you.

00:39:05.300 We're going to make sure you can reopen and just get behind this.

00:39:07.200 Don't criticize us.

00:39:08.380 And you know, that's called betrayal.

00:39:10.040 It is, there's been, you know, loss of trust here.

00:39:14.160 Um, uh, in my opinion, um, I, you know, I, like I said, I thought that this would be it.

00:39:21.000 We were told no more lockdowns.

00:39:22.600 If, if there's, there's a surge in cases for lockdown locally, we're not going to do a

00:39:27.220 blanket lockdown.

00:39:28.120 Uh, but guess what, you know, it happened and I was, uh, really disappointed, you know,

00:39:34.600 my, my faith and, uh, everything that I'd been told, you know, just eroded in that moment

00:39:40.100 because, um, you know, I was once again, staring at, uh, you know, a very bleak, um, indefinite

00:39:48.040 period where, you know, life, whatever little life that we had back in the fall, uh, by the

00:39:54.920 way, many of us haven't even left, I haven't even left Ottawa in two years.

00:40:00.380 Um, you know, I haven't even, you know, I went two weeks, uh, to Quebec once, but that

00:40:06.240 was it.

00:40:07.300 Um, so, you know, we've all been following all the rules.

00:40:10.660 We've, we've, we've done everything, uh, you know, that we were told to do.

00:40:15.220 I live in a city, which is probably has one of the highest vaccination rates in the, in,

00:40:20.020 maybe even in the country, most definitely the province.

00:40:22.680 Uh, but, uh, but then we locked down and, uh, our public healthcare system, um, uh, you

00:40:29.940 know, even during the surge, uh, sure, a few hospitals, uh, were under pressure, but most

00:40:37.480 hospitals, I think coped well, given the, given the pressures that, uh, the, you know, uh,

00:40:43.260 from Omicron, uh, we did, we did fairly well.

00:40:46.080 And, um, but yet, you know, we were all punished in a sense.

00:40:50.140 I saw that as a punishment.

00:40:52.000 No, it's so well said indeed.

00:40:54.020 And I think, you know, one of the frustrating things that's going on right now, particularly

00:40:58.120 in this is in this moment right here in Canada of this sort of national conversation and,

00:41:03.240 and, and controversy and, and debate and sort of split among opinions is that, you know,

00:41:07.620 you and I, I think you're having something of a very therapeutic rant session here about

00:41:10.940 how frustrating things have been.

00:41:12.280 And there's been a lot of people who have said, uh, oh, you know, just deal with it.

00:41:16.440 You're resilient.

00:41:17.220 Kids are resilient.

00:41:18.020 It's just two more weeks.

00:41:18.940 It's just two more weeks.

00:41:19.880 Do this, do that.

00:41:21.020 And, and the argument gets, gets more and more threadbare as it continues.

00:41:24.880 And as you said, we're, we're hearing from a lot of people.

00:41:27.240 And I, as I said, I take the point from my friends who are saying this honking is driving

00:41:30.100 me crazy in Ottawa, or, you know, what, what these, you know, people feel that they can

00:41:33.780 just block down this particular street for as long as they want.

00:41:36.320 There's hardly been any honking today, by the way, just to let your listeners know, um,

00:41:41.680 maybe it's because maybe they just want to give, give people a break perhaps, but there's

00:41:47.260 hardly been any honking.

00:41:48.600 I've hardly seen anything.

00:41:49.440 And that was the main thing, pushing people against them, of course, because as we've,

00:41:52.720 you know, ascertained like the disruptions, you know, there's a couple streets blocked

00:41:55.900 quite heavily and that's, you know, not ideal for some people and some commuters, but at the

00:41:59.660 same time, it's, you know, the very people who, who, you know, when I would write an article

00:42:03.920 a year ago on a pediatrician telling me about all the mental health crisis in youth, there

00:42:09.140 were people who, who downplayed it, who ignored it, who even laughed at that stuff.

00:42:14.720 And now you've got the nerve.

00:42:16.260 I saw a former principal secretary to Justin Trudeau, Jerry Butts made a post about, oh,

00:42:20.460 he's upset that the mall, the Rideau center is closed because I guess he has two teenagers

00:42:24.200 and they wanted to see their friends and they had a day planned at the mall.

00:42:27.220 And he says, it's so good for their mental health after all these closures and everything.

00:42:30.300 And it's like, okay, but like, I, I feel like this is an individual who would have just been

00:42:35.820 perfectly fine with all the lockdowns that were happening just two weeks ago.

00:42:39.920 And we were also told if we reopened, the sky would fall.

00:42:42.960 So I think some of the very people who said, don't reopen the schools are now upset that

00:42:47.900 what, that what, that this convoy means that you have to stay home a bit more.

00:42:51.520 I thought everything was supposed to be closed.

00:42:53.460 I thought it was too dangerous to go out and about.

00:42:56.100 And why have people suddenly pivot on their views?

00:42:58.540 Just look, if this is what it takes for them to say they want to live again, seeing the

00:43:02.140 convoy, fine, I'll take it.

00:43:04.020 But the hypocrisy of it, again, when I talk about, when I talk about, it becomes morally

00:43:09.440 repugnant.

00:43:10.020 I mean, I really think so that they've, some people have downplayed, laughed at some of the

00:43:14.260 harms that society has faced the past two years.

00:43:16.240 And now they want to complain about people standing up to it and then the inconveniences

00:43:22.160 of all, of all of that.

00:43:24.320 Yeah, no, I completely agree.

00:43:26.500 The cognitive dissonance is just astounding.

00:43:30.100 You know, I'd be curious to know how many people actually supported the latest reopening.

00:43:35.420 And that would be good to find out because I bet that the same people who were, who didn't

00:43:42.560 want schools to reopen, who didn't want the province to reopen because hospital numbers

00:43:47.580 are still high, our ICU numbers are still fairly high.

00:43:52.580 And, you know, I don't think they would have wanted the province to reopen.

00:43:56.540 You see, I think it's political at this point.

00:44:00.920 It's not so much about the science anymore.

00:44:04.720 And, and, you know, but, but, you know, I think a lot of people see through that.

00:44:09.900 And, and, and, you know, by and large, people just want to just, just move on with their lives.

00:44:16.820 They're just tired.

00:44:17.980 Look, you know, I think, I think the truckers are here for a purpose.

00:44:22.760 But I think they also risk, you know, sort of annoying people who may essentially support

00:44:33.060 them on some causes.

00:44:35.400 And, but, but, you know, they're, they're being inconvenienced in, in other ways.

00:44:39.960 So people, what is, what is interesting about the timing of this protest is that it happened

00:44:44.300 just before the province started to unlock again.

00:44:47.720 And so a lot of people are looking at it, you know, people I've spoken to some people

00:44:52.560 who work at the mall, say, look, I can't work for a week.

00:44:55.680 Now, why the mall is closed, why you can't get security, you know, and policing and, you

00:45:03.920 know, in the mall so that people who come in respect the mask mandate, as long as, as

00:45:08.900 long as it's in place, you could, you could do that.

00:45:11.600 You could easily do that.

00:45:13.380 And, but, you know, we, we just, you know, our solution to everything here is to lock down,

00:45:20.000 lock everything down.

00:45:20.840 It's become an easy, reflexive choice.

00:45:23.000 Close the schools, close the malls, whatever.

00:45:26.040 We did it to them before.

00:45:27.040 We can do it anytime things aren't working out perfectly for us.

00:45:29.740 Eh, whatever.

00:45:30.420 No effort.

00:45:31.060 Yeah.

00:45:31.400 I mean, there are, there are solutions to this problem.

00:45:34.360 You can still have a protest in, in, in, in a G7 capital, you know, and other G7 capitals

00:45:41.860 seem worse.

00:45:43.140 This is nothing.

00:45:44.360 This is nothing.

00:45:45.080 We've had no violence.

00:45:46.500 We've had a few stray incidents here and there.

00:45:50.200 You know, it's unfortunate that happened.

00:45:52.220 I don't agree with that.

00:45:53.880 But, you know, it could have been a lot worse.

00:45:56.640 And there are solutions to this.

00:46:00.320 The mall doesn't have to shut down.

00:46:01.960 I don't know why, why nobody's asking this question.

00:46:05.240 You know, why, why is it that independent businesses around the mall are all up and running?

00:46:12.660 You know, how are they doing it?

00:46:14.860 How, you know, they don't have their own security.

00:46:17.180 They don't have, uh, uh, uh, uh, police around the clock.

00:46:21.240 Uh, they don't, they don't, they don't have anything like that, but they're, they're open.

00:46:24.840 Um, so what's going on, you know, what's going on indeed, Rupa, this has been a great conversation

00:46:30.100 before we go, where does it all end?

00:46:32.380 How does it all wrap up?

00:46:33.400 It seemed unbelievable to me that to your point, Ontario, Quebec would be in lockdown once

00:46:37.160 again, yet we were in January.

00:46:39.260 Uh, so I want to say it seems like this stuff is drawing to a close very soon, but, but perhaps

00:46:43.920 it's not.

00:46:44.460 What, what, what are, what is your guess for Canada moving forward in the next weeks and

00:46:48.300 months?

00:46:48.540 And I'm not going to jinx it by saying years, but you know, next weeks and months.

00:46:52.160 Uh, you mean, uh, on lockdowns or the truckers protest?

00:46:55.740 Oh boy.

00:46:56.420 Well, well, what, what, what, yeah, whatever.

00:46:58.480 Where, where, where are we going?

00:47:00.240 Well, I'm hoping that I just want the, the restrictions.

00:47:04.460 I think the restrictions need to go.

00:47:06.300 We need to, we need, we need to accelerate them.

00:47:08.860 I think this gradual easing is just sounds like a cover for more restrictions down the road.

00:47:14.460 Look, you know, if something, you know, we once again, uh, face pressure, we'll, we'll

00:47:18.880 probably lock down.

00:47:19.960 We'll probably put in some restrictions.

00:47:21.740 We'll bring them back.

00:47:22.860 So that's not a good sign.

00:47:24.280 I think, I think we just need to, uh, take the bandaid off right now because it's, it's,

00:47:29.240 it's just gone on for too long.

00:47:30.980 Uh, as far as the truckers protest is concerned, I really think, um, that, uh, prime minister

00:47:36.900 Trudeau needs to, um, needs to, uh, reach out to them.

00:47:41.440 I think dialogue is key.

00:47:43.660 Uh, I think he needs to hear them out.

00:47:45.380 I think he needs to listen to them.

00:47:47.100 Uh, this is the advice.

00:47:48.840 This is what he preaches to other world leaders.

00:47:51.180 This is what he told Mr. Modi, prime minister Modi back in December, 2020.

00:47:55.320 Uh, we encourage dialogue with the farmers.

00:47:57.920 So why, uh, why isn't that being applied here?

00:48:01.220 Dialogue could, could just as easily work here, I would think.

00:48:04.800 So, um, um, so that, that needs to happen.

00:48:08.000 I think he needs to, uh, uh, defuse the situation, uh, uh, tempers are rising high.

00:48:14.260 Um, I'm, I'm hearing stories of a possible counter protest or coming to Ottawa that, that may

00:48:21.480 not necessarily be a good thing.

00:48:23.040 Um, you know, it's not going to be a good situation to be in.

00:48:27.820 So, uh, our elected officials need to stop, uh, talking like tin pot dictators. 0.97

00:48:32.820 Many in Ottawa have threatened to, um, take away government aid and, uh, you know, or take

00:48:38.840 their funding away.

00:48:40.060 It's this, we, we shouldn't, this is not a good look for the country.

00:48:43.520 We need to really introspect and, uh, and ask ourselves, uh, you know, what we've become,

00:48:49.900 you know, why, why, why is everything become so divisive, uh, and what's the way forward?

00:48:55.680 And I think it starts with the prime minister.

00:48:57.580 I think he really needs to get down here, uh, and, and reach out to the protesters and,

00:49:02.740 you know, and tell them, look, I don't agree with everything you're saying, but let's talk,

00:49:06.180 let's have this dialogue and let's try to put an end to this peacefully.

00:49:09.720 Well, let's talk, having a dialogue as we did just now.

00:49:12.820 Great conversation, Rupa Subramania.

00:49:14.480 You've been doing great column writing, a great on the ground reporting on social media.

00:49:18.620 Thank you so much for joining us today.

00:49:20.780 Thanks so much, Anthony.

00:49:21.720 It was a pleasure.

00:49:23.440 Full Comment is a post-media podcast.

00:49:25.620 I'm Anthony Fury.

00:49:26.740 This episode was produced by Andre Proulx with theme music by Bryce Hall.

00:49:30.720 Kevin Libin is the executive producer.

00:49:33.140 You can subscribe to Full Comment on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, and Amazon Music.

00:49:37.720 You can listen through the app or your Alexa-enabled devices.

00:49:41.040 You can help us by giving us a rating or a review and by telling your friends about us.

00:49:44.840 Thanks for listening.

Full Comment - February 07, 2022

Truckers rip the mask off the COVID consensus

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